Joe Rogan Experience #1896 - Bjorn Lomborg

1. 0:00 – 2:05

   Recycling reality check: plastics, bins, and waste-to-energy incineration

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumming music plays) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music plays) Would you like coffee?

   3. BLBjorn Lomborg0:13

      I ... So, see? I brought my, um, Mountain ...

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      Oh, you're a Mountain Dew guy?

   5. BLBjorn Lomborg0:16

      Mountain Dew Diet.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      Oh, boy. I like, I like a man who prepares for his podcasts.

   7. BLBjorn Lomborg0:21

      (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:21

      All right, we rolling? We're up? Did you get that part?

   9. NANarrator0:23

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:24

       This dude drinks Mountain Dew Diet.

   11. BLBjorn Lomborg0:25

       (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:25

       That is like the anti-environmentalist beverage of choice.

   13. BLBjorn Lomborg0:28

       Is it?

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:28

       Like ... No, I'm kidding.

   15. BLBjorn Lomborg0:30

       So, I ...

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:30

       Aluminum is actually good, right? Because aluminum does get recycled.

   17. BLBjorn Lomborg0:33

       You can re- recycle it, yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       It does get recycled. But-

   19. BLBjorn Lomborg0:34

       Oh, yeah, yeah. It's no problem.

   20. JRJoe Rogan0:35

       ... we were so heartbroken reading this article recently about plastics, about how w- ... It's like 5%, right?

   21. BLBjorn Lomborg0:41

       5%?

   22. JRJoe Rogan0:41

       Single-use plastics-

   23. BLBjorn Lomborg0:43

       Oh, right.

   24. JRJoe Rogan0:43

       ... get recycled.

   25. BLBjorn Lomborg0:43

       Yeah, yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan0:44

       Like, all the, all ... Every time you throw your bottle in the right bin, you feel like you're a good person.

   27. BLBjorn Lomborg0:48

       Yeah. Mostly you're not.

   28. JRJoe Rogan0:49

       I'm like, "Oh, I'm a good person. I put it in the blue bin."

   29. BLBjorn Lomborg0:51

       Yes.

   30. JRJoe Rogan0:51

       "I'm a good person."
2. 2:05 – 4:28

   How plastic ends up in the ocean: exporting waste and the China pipeline

   1. BLBjorn Lomborg2:05

      So the, the real issue here is once you decide to say you have to switch it into all these different bins-

   2. JRJoe Rogan2:11

      Yes.

   3. BLBjorn Lomborg2:12

      Uh, you have everyone said ... Uh, I was just at a conference in Stanford, and you could just see everyone, and I did the same thing, you're sort of like, "Oh my God. What am I gon- ..." And you feel like you did the wrong thing no matter what you do, and you probably did, and most of it, as you just said, won't get recycled. Why? Because back in, you know, five, 10 years ago, we just took all of this and sent it to China.

   4. JRJoe Rogan2:32

      Yeah.

   5. BLBjorn Lomborg2:33

      And had them re- recycle it. And this is why there's so much plastic in the oceans. It's not because anybody, you know, just threw it out. It's because we shipped it away to feel good about ourselves, but we didn't wanna pay, and then, of course, when you get this barge with all this crap plastic, you either say, "Should we, um, you know, recycle it and spend a lot of money?" Or maybe just comp- you know, happen to lose it on the ocean. That's where most of this plastic actually comes from. So the idea is-

   6. JRJoe Rogan2:58

      Really? They just dump it out?

   7. BLBjorn Lomborg3:00

      Yeah. So if you burn it instead, it's no prob- ... You just throw everything in one, uh, bucket, you recycle the energy, and it's very, very cheap for everyone. Nobody has to sit and w- stand there and worry, and you'll actually do what you just pointed out (laughs) 95% gets done anyway.

   8. JRJoe Rogan3:17

      Y- So if we just do that, it will have a net gain on the environment, will remove plastics, like particularly from the ocean.

   9. BLBjorn Lomborg3:25

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan3:25

       Uh, who's that young gentleman that we've had on the podcast that developed that machine to extract the plastic from the ocean?

   11. NANarrator3:34

       Ah, yes. It's Asten Sater.

   12. JRJoe Rogan3:35

       Yes. Tip of your tongues. On very, very ...

   13. NANarrator3:38

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan3:38

       I mean, he was ... I believe he was 19 years old-

   15. NANarrator3:42

       Yep.

   16. JRJoe Rogan3:42

       ... when he came up with the idea and implemented it. You know, had like a few different models that-

   17. NANarrator3:48

       Boyan Slat.

   18. JRJoe Rogan3:48

       Boyan Slat. Thank you. Sorry, Boyan.

   19. BLBjorn Lomborg3:51

       (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan3:51

       My, my memory's shit in the morning. Um, but he figured out how to extract some of it, and then they took that plastic and then converted it into things you could buy.

   21. BLBjorn Lomborg4:01

       Hmm.

   22. JRJoe Rogan4:01

       Like sunglasses-

   23. BLBjorn Lomborg4:02

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan4:02

       ... and things along those lines.

   25. BLBjorn Lomborg4:03

       And all of this is nice.

   26. JRJoe Rogan4:05

       Yeah.

   27. BLBjorn Lomborg4:05

       And, and look, we should definitely try to clean up the ocean, but again, I tend to think that we try to make it too hard. You know, if you actually want this to work for a population of about eight billion, you need to have simple municipal waste, uh, uh, recycling and that's very often just that you recycle glass, you recycle paper, you burn most of the other stuff. And then you recycle some of the really valuable stuff.

3. 4:28 – 5:37

   Developing-world sanitation: why basic trash collection beats idealized recycling

   1. JRJoe Rogan4:28

      But it ... Doesn't that cost a lot of money to do in places that are like strapped for resources? Like one of the things that you always see when you see, uh, video footage of, uh, countries overseas that are impoverished is y- you see a lot of trash.

   2. BLBjorn Lomborg4:40

      Oh, yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan4:41

      'Cause they don't have the money to process it.

   4. BLBjorn Lomborg4:42

      No, no.

   5. JRJoe Rogan4:43

      Right?

   6. BLBjorn Lomborg4:43

      And, and that's why the first thing you want is just simply good trash, uh, collection, so you get rid of it. Uh, you know, so we did a big project in Dhaka, uh, where we're ... Or for Bangladesh, and one of the things we focused on was also just simply getting trash off the, off the streets because it's unsightly. It actually leads to more crime. It leads to, uh, more destitution. It probably also transmit disease, and it's fairly cheap to get rid of.

   7. JRJoe Rogan5:07

      Hmm.

   8. BLBjorn Lomborg5:07

      And s- this is not rocket science. So there's a lot of ways that you can do that. Uh, but instead, we come in and say, "No, no. You need to recycle, and you need to have three different baskets," and all that kind of stuff. No, you just need to get rid of it. That's how you also get rid of the plastics in the ocean.

   9. JRJoe Rogan5:20

      Mm.

   10. BLBjorn Lomborg5:21

       You know? Aga- And I think we'll have that conversation a lot of times. Um, uh, a lot of these, "Oh, we should do the absolute best," feels like it's a really good solution, but very often it ends up meaning that you do stuff that will then only be implemented 5% and the other stuff is crap.

4. 5:37 – 8:55

   Microplastics, health worries, and the trade-offs of useful materials

   1. JRJoe Rogan5:37

      Hmm. Um, there should be an, a real public understanding of the dangers of these plastics and microplastics getting into your body too. It's, it's just so weird that we've developed this entire society based on this petrochemical prod- product that ultimately gets into your body and has-... negative effects?

   2. BLBjorn Lomborg6:02

      So, the, the microplastics is, are possibly a, uh, an issue. W- it's not quite clear yet whether they are. But that's a concern, and that's certainly something we should look at. But also remember, pretty much everything else that you have with plastics is incredibly useful, right?

   3. JRJoe Rogan6:16

      True.

   4. BLBjorn Lomborg6:17

      Uh, it packages, which actually reduces loss of pretty much anything you can think of dramatically. And, of course, through COVID, we realized (laughs) it's a really good thing to have one-use plastic stuff.

   5. JRJoe Rogan6:27

      Yeah.

   6. BLBjorn Lomborg6:27

      Uh, so, so again, most things in the real world are both a problem and a benefit, and we need to find out how do we make it more of a benefit and less of a problem. But we need to stop having this conversation, "Oh, you can't have anything of this, you know, this bad thing." Uh, that's not how we organize our societies. That's not how we think, and that's certainly not how we make good choices.

   7. JRJoe Rogan6:47

      That makes sense, but if we know that there are, are alternatives to plastic, and we know that there's so many different problems with plastic, it being non-biodegradable, unless it's like ... There's some-

   8. BLBjorn Lomborg6:57

      Yep.

   9. JRJoe Rogan6:58

      Isn't there's some plastic-

   10. BLBjorn Lomborg6:59

       Yep.

   11. JRJoe Rogan6:59

       ... that they can make with, like, uh, plant fiber-

   12. BLBjorn Lomborg7:01

       Yep.

   13. JRJoe Rogan7:01

       ... that's biodegradable?

   14. BLBjorn Lomborg7:02

       Yep.

   15. JRJoe Rogan7:02

       Um, the, then, then there's the phthalates thing. You know, um, I'm sure you're probably aware of this, uh, Dr. Shanna Swan? Is she ... Do you, do you know this whole-

   16. BLBjorn Lomborg7:11

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan7:11

       ... thing about wha- what's happening to ... When women are pregnant and their b- bodies, uh, have levels of phthalates above a certain level, it, uh, has an effect on the reproductive cycle of the child. And, uh, they can do studies in, in mammals, and they show that when the female is pregnant and she's encounters these chemicals from plastics, it fucks with the, the, the gender of the child, like, where, um, their taints-

   18. BLBjorn Lomborg7:40

       Hmm.

   19. JRJoe Rogan7:40

       ... shrink, which is weird, but i- in mammals. Apparently, that's a representation of, like, whether or not it's a male or a f- ... It's, like, best, one of the best distinctions, way, ways distinguishing whether it's a male or a female is the size of the taint when it's a baby, 'cause the male taint is 50 to 100% larger than the female taint. She's hilarious. She's like, she's got a, like, really funny thing on her, uh, Instagram about, uh, 'cause it also causes a dec- decline in sperm production.

   20. BLBjorn Lomborg8:05

       Yep.

   21. JRJoe Rogan8:05

       And so her way of approaching it that's funny is she has the Jizz Quiz, and she does this (laughs) she's like-

   22. BLBjorn Lomborg8:11

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan8:11

       ... this adorable, like, petite lady who is a, a brilliant doctor. But she's, she's kind of being funny and at the same, like, sounding the warning shot. Like, "Hey, this is fucking with human beings' reproductive cycles."

   24. BLBjorn Lomborg8:24

       Hmm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan8:24

       And since the invention of, uh, petrochemical plastics that we use in basically everything, from that point to today, there's a very clear drop in fertility rates, a very clear drop in male sperm count, a very clear drop in penis and testicle size. And with females, there's higher, uh, rates of miscarriages. And she believes through her research that th- this is connected-

   26. BLBjorn Lomborg8:48

       Hmm.

   27. JRJoe Rogan8:48

       ... and that these chemicals that we're getting from our, these plastics are literally affecting the development cycle of human babies.

5. 8:55 – 11:30

   Sperm counts, measurement pitfalls, and why progress still dominates long-term trends

   1. BLBjorn Lomborg8:55

      Yeah. And, and look, I've, I've, I've done some work on this. Uh, so (laughs) and the thing you have to w- worry about ... So, we should definitely be concerned about these things.

   2. JRJoe Rogan9:03

      That sounds like a giant issue.

   3. BLBjorn Lomborg9:04

      And, and we, we should certainly be looking at it.

   4. JRJoe Rogan9:07

      (laughs)

   5. BLBjorn Lomborg9:07

      Uh, the best data as I understand this is, uh, the fact that, that sperm counts have gone down dramatically, uh, over the last, uh, 30 to 40 years. Uh, but, but-

   6. JRJoe Rogan9:15

      You haven't looked at the taints?

   7. BLBjorn Lomborg9:16

      We- well-

   8. JRJoe Rogan9:17

      There's a-

   9. BLBjorn Lomborg9:17

      No, I haven't.

   10. JRJoe Rogan9:18

       ... big, big time taint study. (laughs)

   11. BLBjorn Lomborg9:19

       Oh. (laughs) Yes, sorry. Uh, and, and what it turns out-

   12. JRJoe Rogan9:21

       (laughs)

   13. BLBjorn Lomborg9:22

       ... of course, is, uh, that, uh, you tell people that they have to abstain for a week, or four days or a week. I can't remember. And that's potentially possible that people would do in the '50s. It's very unlikely it happens today, and we know that they don't.

   14. JRJoe Rogan9:34

       So, you think peo- more people jerk off now?

   15. BLBjorn Lomborg9:36

       Yeah, basically.

   16. JRJoe Rogan9:36

       And that's why ... That's an interesting perspective.

   17. BLBjorn Lomborg9:38

       So-

   18. JRJoe Rogan9:38

       I bet you're right.

   19. BLBjorn Lomborg9:39

       The, the-

   20. JRJoe Rogan9:40

       Hold on a second. Now, I'm on team ...

   21. BLBjorn Lomborg9:42

       (laughs)

   22. JRJoe Rogan9:43

       Now, I'm on team Bjorn.

   23. BLBjorn Lomborg9:44

       Well, a- again, a- again-

   24. JRJoe Rogan9:45

       'Cause that makes sense.

   25. BLBjorn Lomborg9:45

       ... th- the, the point is not that we shouldn't be concerned about issues and that we should be investigating things, but you also gotta remember, our civilization is actually really, really good at making sure that we are concerned about all the different things. And how do we know? Because we live much longer. This is one of the things I think, uh, you know, almost everyone forgets. In 1900, the average life expectancy on planet Earth was 32 years. Last year, it was 74 years.

   26. JRJoe Rogan10:11

       Right. But you know why-

   27. BLBjorn Lomborg10:12

       And-

   28. JRJoe Rogan10:12

       ... it was 32 years, right?

   29. BLBjorn Lomborg10:13

       Well, it was-

   30. JRJoe Rogan10:14

       Infant mortality.
6. 11:30 – 14:49

   Lessons from leaded gasoline (and thalidomide): real harms, then course-corrections

   1. BLBjorn Lomborg11:30

      Yeah. And, and we had a very good example of that with the, uh, lead-

   2. JRJoe Rogan11:33

      Yeah. That's what I was gonna bring it up. Thank you.

   3. BLBjorn Lomborg11:34

      ... that we added to, uh, to gasoline. And that was a terrible idea. Uh-

   4. JRJoe Rogan11:36

      Please explain the story behind that, because it's really bananas.

   5. BLBjorn Lomborg11:40

      So the, the fundamental thing is it makes your gasoline run a little better. Uh, so you added this lead, uh, to all cars. Uh, and-

   6. JRJoe Rogan11:49

      What stops your car from knocking.

   7. BLBjorn Lomborg11:50

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan11:51

      Yeah.

   9. BLBjorn Lomborg11:51

      And-

   10. JRJoe Rogan11:51

       Those old engines are like bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. (laughs)

   11. BLBjorn Lomborg11:53

       And they didn't do quite as much. I love the sound effects but-

   12. JRJoe Rogan11:56

       Those old... You ever see those old shitty cars?

   13. BLBjorn Lomborg11:58

       (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan11:58

       Man, they were fucking... It was like guns were going off.

   15. BLBjorn Lomborg12:00

       Yeah. And, and, and, you know, and it just had that huge side effect that actually makes us all dumber. Uh-

   16. JRJoe Rogan12:05

       Yeah, the whole population.

   17. BLBjorn Lomborg12:07

       Yeah. Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan12:07

       Giant populations of cities lost many percentage points of IQ, of IQ.

   19. BLBjorn Lomborg12:11

       Yeah. So, so like, uh, uh, three to five IQ points.

   20. JRJoe Rogan12:13

       That's nuts.

   21. BLBjorn Lomborg12:14

       Yeah. Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan12:15

       5%.

   23. BLBjorn Lomborg12:15

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan12:15

       Just so your car could run smoother. (laughs)

   25. BLBjorn Lomborg12:17

       And, and, and this again, you know, it shows-

   26. JRJoe Rogan12:20

       Oh.

   27. BLBjorn Lomborg12:20

       Because we all remember, I don't know, uh, thalidomide, you know, the idea that you were giving-

   28. JRJoe Rogan12:25

       Thalidomide.

   29. BLBjorn Lomborg12:25

       Thalidomide. Sorry. I-

   30. JRJoe Rogan12:26

       Yeah.
7. 14:49 – 21:36

   From climate fear to attribution: what the UN/IPCC says and what changes matter now

   1. JRJoe Rogan14:49

      It's like, you know, I had on Randall Carlson and Graham Hancock yesterday, and the podcast will be released on Thursday. And it's this amazing podcast talking about moments in the Earth's history where the Earth experienced asteroid impacts, comet impacts. And that there's a period around 12,000 something years ago where we, for sure, got hit by these big impacts of either exploding in the sky above Earth or hitting the ground. And there's plenty of, like, physical evidence of this, and it's called the Younger Dryas impact theory. But they were talking about the rapid change in the climate, how the, the sea levels rose, the ice caps melted all because we got pummeled by asteroids. Like, this shit has gone on forever. That's just natural stuff from getting hit by space. If you look at, like, the cycles of the... Like, if you go back a million years in Earth and look at all the highs and lows, you're like, "Oh, this thing's never been stable without us even existing. It's never been stable." So I guess the question is, how much of an effect are we having on these wild cycles? What can you really blame it on? And what can we do, if anything, to turn it around?

   2. BLBjorn Lomborg16:06

      Yeah. So it... You absolutely... Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan16:08

      Those are the reasonable questions, right?

   4. BLBjorn Lomborg16:09

      Yes, and a, and a long one. (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan16:11

      Sorry.

   6. BLBjorn Lomborg16:11

      So... No, no, no.

   7. JRJoe Rogan16:12

      Sorry about that. I get a little carried away.

   8. BLBjorn Lomborg16:13

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan16:13

      I get excited about this one-

   10. BLBjorn Lomborg16:14

       No, no.

   11. JRJoe Rogan16:14

       ... because it seems kind of cultish.

   12. BLBjorn Lomborg16:16

       It, it is. So, so look, if you look around and if you look back in time, absolutely there's been huge changes as, as you point out.

   13. JRJoe Rogan16:22

       Yeah.

   14. BLBjorn Lomborg16:22

       You know, uh, sea levels from, from, uh, an ice age to today has gone up, what, 400 feet. Uh, so yeah-

   15. JRJoe Rogan16:29

       Without us even doing shit.

   16. BLBjorn Lomborg16:30

       With nothing from-

   17. JRJoe Rogan16:32

       Yeah.

   18. BLBjorn Lomborg16:32

       ... you know, our, our impact. Uh, with all that said, so that's sort of the background, and that's important to know. We don't live in thousands or millions of years. Uh, we live right now.

   19. JRJoe Rogan16:42

       Right.

   20. BLBjorn Lomborg16:42

       And we kind of care about what's gonna happen in the next 100 and next 200, uh, years. To a large extent also because we built all of our cities. So, you know, Austin is built in a pretty warm climate, I'm assuming. Uh, you know, coming from Southern Sweden, I think it's, uh, it's a lot warmer here than it is where, where I'm from.

   21. JRJoe Rogan16:58

       Yeah, a lot warmer. Yeah.

   22. BLBjorn Lomborg16:59

       Yeah, yeah. So, you know, cities are built to the temperature that they used to have-

   23. JRJoe Rogan17:04

       Right.

   24. BLBjorn Lomborg17:04

       ... like, for the last 100 years. So if temperatures change, even if it's just somewhat, it'll be inconvenient. It'll actually be a problem. And that, I think, is really why we're talking about global warming. It's a problem that we are causing, so we are actually changing the temperature, not by these enormous amounts that you're talking about. They're not the asteroids of the world, but there's, you know, uh, uh, an issue that we should be careful about and w- that we should pay attention to and that we should talk about it. So how do we fix it in the best possible way? But let's... I-

   25. JRJoe Rogan17:33

       But before you get into that, how do we know...... how much of an impact our society is having on the overall effect? Like, if there is a warming of the globe-

   26. BLBjorn Lomborg17:43

       Hmm.

   27. JRJoe Rogan17:44

       ... how do we know how much of an impact are pointing out... Is there a r- real science that points out the amount of carbon and the emissions that we release has X amount of effect which will equal this amount of temperature rise? Is that solidified?

   28. BLBjorn Lomborg17:58

       So I, I'm a social scientist, right?

   29. JRJoe Rogan18:00

       Okay.

   30. BLBjorn Lomborg18:00

       So I basically just read all the UN climate-
8. 21:36 – 27:41

   Energy trade-offs: fossil fuels’ benefits, nuclear safety vs. cost, and air-pollution realities

   1. JRJoe Rogan21:36

      What about nuclear?

   2. BLBjorn Lomborg21:37

      Nuclear absolutely could be part of the solution, so people are incredibly frightened about nuclear. But remember, if you look at what it actually takes to produce energy, uh, nuclear is one of the safest things possible. Now, all technologies have risks, right? If you put up solar panels, you'll have some people falling down from the roofs putting them up. The... I'm, I'm not kidding. This is-

   3. JRJoe Rogan21:58

      Right.

   4. BLBjorn Lomborg21:58

      ... uh, and, uh, uh-

   5. JRJoe Rogan21:59

      Sure.

   6. BLBjorn Lomborg22:00

      ... a hazard of... An occupational hazard. Uh, but solar panels are some of the safest things together with nuclear. Uh, you know, they, uh, uh... So, so Chernobyl, which was by all kinds of ways a terrible accident, certainly not something-

   7. JRJoe Rogan22:14

      I'm glad you said that. I thought you approached Chernobyl for a minute there.

   8. BLBjorn Lomborg22:16

      (laughs) Yeah, I know.

   9. JRJoe Rogan22:18

      I was looking at the sky.

   10. BLBjorn Lomborg22:18

       Well, uh, I'm gonna say... No, no, I'm not.

   11. JRJoe Rogan22:20

       (laughs)

   12. BLBjorn Lomborg22:20

       Uh, so, so Chernobyl, uh, uh, you know, probably killed, uh, in the order of 100 to 200 people, uh, which is not nothing, but remember this-

   13. JRJoe Rogan22:29

       But destroyed the area.

   14. BLBjorn Lomborg22:30

       ... this is, this is the biggest catastrophe we've ever had with nuclear power. Uh, regularly, coal-fired power kills, you know, millions of people. Uh, so-

   15. JRJoe Rogan22:39

       Really?

   16. BLBjorn Lomborg22:39

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan22:40

       Millions?

   18. BLBjorn Lomborg22:40

       Millions across the world.

   19. JRJoe Rogan22:41

       How do millions of people die from coal power?

   20. BLBjorn Lomborg22:43

       So this is basically because, uh, especially in the developing world, you don't put smoke... Uh, you don't put scrubbers on your smokestack, so it just-

   21. JRJoe Rogan22:49

       Oh.

   22. BLBjorn Lomborg22:49

       ... makes it incredibly polluted. If you've ever been to, uh, New Delhi in the, in the, in the fall, uh, where... It just... It's, it... I, I'm assuming it's a little bit, uh, worse than it was, uh, to be back in London in 1950s. You know, you almost can't see your way for it, forward, and you can just feel it in your throat and everything.

   23. JRJoe Rogan23:07

       Apparently, um-

   24. BLBjorn Lomborg23:08

       And, and you inhale a lot.

   25. JRJoe Rogan23:09

       ... like, uh, fires, like fireplace fires, well, you know, like-

   26. BLBjorn Lomborg23:13

       Yes.

   27. JRJoe Rogan23:13

       ... where you have in the hear- Like, a lo- a lot of people think that's good. That's terrible.

   28. BLBjorn Lomborg23:17

       It's terrible, yes.

   29. JRJoe Rogan23:18

       Uh, burning wood like that is one of the worst things for the air.

   30. BLBjorn Lomborg23:22

       Absolutely. So what people don't get is-
9. 27:41 – 42:02

   Climate narratives, media incentives, and the cold-vs-heat mortality debate

   1. JRJoe Rogan27:41

      Well, so what is, what do you d- if, are you conspiratorial about this push towards a climate change? I mean, wha- or, or cor- towards a, a climate change crisis mentality, where, you know, there was, uh, a famous Project Veritas video with a guy who worked for CNN, and they caught him on undercover camera, and they were talking about using climate change to get people excited. I assumed he was talking about for ratings.

   2. BLBjorn Lomborg28:09

      Hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan28:09

      Which makes sense.

   4. BLBjorn Lomborg28:10

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan28:10

      If you're a producer and you work in Hollywood, you know, if the Kardashians are fighting with their boyfriend, "Get in there. Let's go." That's, that's money, right?

   6. BLBjorn Lomborg28:18

      Yep.

   7. JRJoe Rogan28:18

      That's what you do.

   8. BLBjorn Lomborg28:19

      Yep.

   9. JRJoe Rogan28:19

      And if that's happening, "Oh my God, the climate." Like, everyone freaks out. "The climate." They're gluing their, uh, their hands to Picassos. "Oh, Jesus, the climate." If that's gonna get you ratings, your job is to get ratings.

   10. BLBjorn Lomborg28:29

       Yep.

   11. JRJoe Rogan28:29

       Your job is not to educate the American people. You can barely figure out life yourself, right? You're 34 years old. You got a half a million dollars in student loans. Can't believe you work for CNN.

   12. BLBjorn Lomborg28:38

       (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan28:38

       What are you supposed to do? You're supposed to fucking put the climate change in everybody's face.

   14. BLBjorn Lomborg28:42

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan28:42

       'Cause that's how you're gonna sell tickets.

   16. BLBjorn Lomborg28:44

       Yeah. So, so-

   17. JRJoe Rogan28:44

       That's what, that's what they're doing.

   18. BLBjorn Lomborg28:46

       So, climate has that wonderful opportunity that it can actually f- fundamentally get us to talk about every time something out there happens, it can be news and it can be somebody's fault. Uh, so, yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan28:56

       Right. Right.

   20. BLBjorn Lomborg28:57

       Every time there's a flood, every time there's a storm-

   21. JRJoe Rogan28:59

       Right.

   22. BLBjorn Lomborg28:59

       ... every time there's anything-

   23. JRJoe Rogan29:00

       Heart attacks. Heart attacks and climate change.

   24. BLBjorn Lomborg29:02

       Well, I'm, I'm sure they'll come up with that.

   25. JRJoe Rogan29:02

       Have you seen that?

   26. BLBjorn Lomborg29:03

       I'm sure, yeah, yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan29:04

       E- no, that's real.

   28. BLBjorn Lomborg29:05

       Oh God, yes.

   29. JRJoe Rogan29:06

       Yeah, there's articles written-

   30. BLBjorn Lomborg29:07

       Yeah.
10. 42:02 – 1:03:08

    Adaptation that works: disaster deaths down, hurricane resilience up, and simple building fixes

    1. BLBjorn Lomborg42:02

       Let, let, let me just... First, if I can just show you, uh, A22. So, this one shows the deaths over the last century of all the things that you think of as climate, right? Floods, droughts, storms, wildfires and extreme temperatures. They don't do a particularly good job on extreme temperatures, but let's just leave it at that. This is the best data that we have for the world. And what it basically shows is the complete opposite of what these guys that are gluing themselves to the Picasso, right? This is f- fundamentally a situation of back when you were poor in the 1920s, about half a million people died every year. The last-

    2. JRJoe Rogan42:41

       You know what would be amazing to look at right next to that?

    3. BLBjorn Lomborg42:44

       What?

    4. JRJoe Rogan42:44

       The deaths from donuts.

    5. BLBjorn Lomborg42:45

       (laughs)

    6. JRJoe Rogan42:46

       It would be the total opposite direction.

    7. BLBjorn Lomborg42:47

       Oh, yeah, yeah.

    8. JRJoe Rogan42:48

       (laughs)

    9. BLBjorn Lomborg42:48

       Look, look, getting richer-

    10. JRJoe Rogan42:49

        You know, isn't that weird?

    11. BLBjorn Lomborg42:50

        Getting richer means that you can allow yourself to go, you know, die from lots and lots of donuts.

    12. JRJoe Rogan42:56

        Yeah.

    13. BLBjorn Lomborg42:56

        But it's a decision.

    14. JRJoe Rogan42:57

        Well, it's a lot of poor people as well.

    15. BLBjorn Lomborg42:59

        Oh, yeah.

    16. JRJoe Rogan42:59

        I mean, that, that food's cheap and it's filling, you know, but if you looked at food-related deaths, let's see if there's food-related deaths.

    17. BLBjorn Lomborg43:07

        Hmm.

    18. JRJoe Rogan43:07

        How many, like, how would you dis- how would you d- make that distinction of people who ... Would it be people who died from obesity and diabetes? Like, how would you say that?

    19. BLBjorn Lomborg43:15

        Obviously.

    20. JRJoe Rogan43:15

        'Cause it's obviously of a lot of other, um-

    21. BLBjorn Lomborg43:17

        And they, they die from that.

    22. JRJoe Rogan43:18

        ... autoimmune diseases that come from being obese.

    23. BLBjorn Lomborg43:21

        Yeah.

    24. JRJoe Rogan43:21

        There's not just a few. So, like, the 500,000 from '20, 1920, I bet we hit that every year. From obesity?

    25. BLBjorn Lomborg43:29

        Oh, I'm sure.

    26. JRJoe Rogan43:30

        In America? Like, what do you think it is in America? Like, heart disease, and that's-

    27. BLBjorn Lomborg43:34

        Heart, heart disease is probably a couple of million, isn't it?

    28. JRJoe Rogan43:36

        That's a lot, right? Um, but the heart disease one-

    29. BLBjorn Lomborg43:38

        Sorry, that-

    30. JRJoe Rogan43:39

        ... can be attributed to genetics.
11. 1:03:08 – 1:23:46

    Policy priorities: innovation over panic, net-zero costs, and fracking as an imperfect bridge

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:03:08

       They're a very expensive car. Um, so a- i- in, in terms of what we can do now to slow the stem. Like, that's one of the fearmonger-y things that you hear. I don't know if it's accurate, but they're always saying, "If we don't do this now-"

    2. BLBjorn Lomborg1:03:23

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:03:23

       "... with every-"

    4. BLBjorn Lomborg1:03:24

       Yeah.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:03:24

       "... with every day that passes by, if we don't en- enact legislation, the future's doomed."

    6. BLBjorn Lomborg1:03:30

       Yeah.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:03:30

       This is the thing that people keep harping on.

    8. BLBjorn Lomborg1:03:32

       Yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:03:32

       How much of that is accurate?

    10. BLBjorn Lomborg1:03:33

        That's just wrong.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:03:35

        I mean.

    12. BLBjorn Lomborg1:03:35

        Just wrong.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:03:35

        If you look at the UN Climate Panel reports, there's nowhere they tell you this. The quote, I don't know if you remember, this was AOC and many others, uh, telling us we have just 12 years left. Oh, my God.

    14. BLBjorn Lomborg1:03:45

        That wa- that was the argument that they t- they asked the UN, "What will it take to stick to 1.5 degrees centigrade?" Which is sort of an arbitrary target.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:03:55

        Right.

    16. BLBjorn Lomborg1:03:56

        And almost imposs- probably impossible to do. And so the UN said, "If you want to do this almost impossible, you have to do everything before 2030."

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:04:06

        Right.

    18. BLBjorn Lomborg1:04:06

        Which was then 12 years away.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:04:07

        Right.

    20. BLBjorn Lomborg1:04:08

        That's where the 12-year time limit come from. It's basically saying, "If you want to do something incredibly stupid and incredibly expensive, you only have 12 years left." But that's not what the UN is telling us. We should s- switch and we should cut carbon emissions, but there are much, much smarter ways to do this. So the, perhaps the most obvious one is what the US did back from late 2000s, which was fracking.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:04:33

        Yeah.

    22. BLBjorn Lomborg1:04:34

        This is, uh, uh, basically something that was done by, uh, investment and research and development from, uh, uh, uh, uh, George W. Bush, uh, in the early 2000s, where they spent about $10 billion working with frackers to find out how do you frac, uh, gas and then later on oil. And what that meant was, you ended up ... This was not at all meant as a climate policy. It was meant as a way to get more energy. But what it meant was, you ended up getting much, much cheaper gas. And because you had much cheaper gas, you switched out coal for gas. This matters because gas is about twice as efficient. It emits half as much CO₂ per e- unit of energy. So you basically have this situation where you made a somewhat cleaner source of energy much cheaper. And so the US actually cut its emissions more over the last decade than any other country has ever done.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:05:25

        But is there a detrimental effect on the environment because of fracking-

    24. BLBjorn Lomborg1:05:28

        Yes.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:05:28

        ... that it has to balance that out? And-

    26. BLBjorn Lomborg1:05:29

        There, there is. So-

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:05:30

        How much of an impact is that?

    28. BLBjorn Lomborg1:05:32

        So, there's ... Thank you for (laughs) asking. So there's uh, uh, there's a study that tries to, uh, look at what all the damages and all the benefits from fracking is. Uh, and so they find the total damage from fracking is in the order of $25 billion, mostly from air pollution. Uh, some-

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:05:48

        Air pollution?

    30. BLBjorn Lomborg1:05:48

        Yes.

Episode duration: 2:31:52