Joe Rogan Experience #1901 - Steven Pressfield

1. 0:00 – 2:40

   Pressfield’s new books and why The War of Art hit so hard

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. SPSteven Pressfield0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music) Good to see you, man. What's happening?

   4. SPSteven Pressfield0:14

      It's good to see you, Joe.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      With a nice stack of books here. What do we got here? Government Cheese: A Memoir. Is this your memoir?

   6. SPSteven Pressfield0:20

      This is my memoir, yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:22

      Ah, exciting.

   8. SPSteven Pressfield0:24

      Of, uh, of my 27 years in the wilderness.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:27

      And, uh, Put Your Ass Where Your Heart Wants To Be. This is, uh-

   10. SPSteven Pressfield0:32

       That's sort of like a War of Art type of book as you can tell from the size of it and everything.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:37

       After writing The War of Art, did you ... 'Cause you wr- you also w- wrote Turning Pro, right?

   12. SPSteven Pressfield0:42

       Yeah, and a few others.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:43

       Yeah, but this-

   14. SPSteven Pressfield0:44

       In the same-

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:44

       On the same, along the same-

   16. SPSteven Pressfield0:46

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:46

       ... vein.

   18. SPSteven Pressfield0:46

       Yeah, yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:47

       You just felt like you have more to, to squeeze out of that? It's like, it's such an important subject for, for artists and for creative people. I mean, that book, The War of Art, changed so many people.

   20. SPSteven Pressfield0:59

       Let me ask you, Joe. What, uh, w- why did that resonate with you?

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:03

       (clicks tongue) Well, there was some stuff that he talked about that it was almost, like, unspoken. And one of 'em is the concept of resistance. And, and that the fact that you treated the muse as if it was a, a, like a real, living entity. Like, you-

   22. SPSteven Pressfield1:21

       Which I think it is, yeah. She is.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:23

       Well, she is. Whatever it is.

   24. SPSteven Pressfield1:25

       Uh-huh.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:25

       That thing where if you show up and you put in the work, creativity s- just sort of ev- sort of gives birth. It, it sort of, uh, erupts. It comes out. It, it manifests. It ... There's something to it. And, and just, uh, I kind of always had this, like, inkling that that was a thing or this thought that that was a thing. But until I read your book, it was ... It's like you had ... You, you made it real. You, like, you, you, you just, like-

   26. SPSteven Pressfield1:57

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:57

       ... you laid it out and, like, "Here's the problem, this is what's going on, and this is what you gotta do. You just gotta show up every day, and put in the work, and be a, a damn professional." And y- so many people that I gave that book to, I used to have a stack of 'em in my old studio, and I would just hand them to people.

   28. SPSteven Pressfield2:13

       Uh-huh.

   29. JRJoe Rogan2:13

       "Like, dude, just read this. Trust me." And it wasn't a hard read, you know? It wasn't a giant book. But it was so valuable because it, it just, like ... Uh, I guarantee you, there's so many people, there were so many days where people sat in front of their c- their computer or a notepad where they wouldn't have because of that book.

   30. SPSteven Pressfield2:33

       Mm.
2. 2:40 – 12:09

   Comedy as craft: spots vs road work, writing habits, and audience feedback

   1. SPSteven Pressfield2:40

      Did you yourself ... Let me ask you. Like, as a comic, did you experience resistance to getting, say, up on front of people or in the writing of the material or does-

   2. JRJoe Rogan2:52

      Yeah, you kind of re-

   3. SPSteven Pressfield2:53

      Was that an area where you could relate to it?

   4. JRJoe Rogan2:55

      Yes. It ... All the, the, all the above. You could, you know, you experience resistance in, like, "Oh, I wanna take a day off." You know, like, "Oh, I don't feel like going up today." Like, I know a lot of comics who are, like, really good comics and they're always canceling, like, sp- Well, like, there's work and then there's spots, okay? So the spots are important because the spots are what get you better, tighten your material and how you create new material. They keep you sharp.

   5. SPSteven Pressfield3:21

      Now, are spots when you actually perform? Is that what a spot is?

   6. JRJoe Rogan3:24

      Yes.

   7. SPSteven Pressfield3:24

      Okay.

   8. JRJoe Rogan3:25

      So this is what I mean. Um, a spot is, say, if you're gonna go to The Comedy Store and, uh, on, on regular night in The Comedy Store, there might be 15 comedians and each one of 'em is doing 15 minutes. So there's just ... It's a long running show. It starts from 8:00 PM. It goes on all night. When you're doing that, that's a spot.

   9. SPSteven Pressfield3:46

      Mm-hmm.

   10. JRJoe Rogan3:46

       Doesn't pay very well. I think it pays, like, $50.

   11. SPSteven Pressfield3:49

       Uh-huh.

   12. JRJoe Rogan3:49

       So you just go down there and it's really ... There's a lot of comradery. We're all hanging around-

   13. SPSteven Pressfield3:54

       Uh-huh.

   14. JRJoe Rogan3:54

       ... with each other and joking around in the parking lot and in the hallway. And, uh, you're really just trying to stay sharp and work on new material. And you mi- ... And The Comedy Store has three rooms. There's the belly room that seats about 70 to 90 people. There's the main room that seats about 400-plus people. And then there's the original room that seats, I think it seats about 170. And you do shows in each room. Like, people do spots. Like, sometimes people do three spots a night. So those are, those don't pay well, but that's, tha- those are the ones people cancel. So, like-

   15. SPSteven Pressfield4:31

       Ah, ah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan4:31

       ... a lot of comedians, they're like, "Oh, I don't feel like going up."

   17. SPSteven Pressfield4:34

       (laughs)

   18. JRJoe Rogan4:34

       And they'll call in the Store, "I'm canceling. I'm gonna cancel."

   19. SPSteven Pressfield4:37

       Ah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan4:37

       "I'm not feeling well. I'll cancel." And it's really just resistance. It's this thing that keeps you from showing up. But the resistance for writing is way stronger. That's really strong.

   21. SPSteven Pressfield4:48

       That's the work that you're talking about.

   22. JRJoe Rogan4:49

       That's-

   23. SPSteven Pressfield4:49

       That spot and, uh, and then the work. Huh.

   24. JRJoe Rogan4:51

       Well, no, no. The wor- wor- spots are short sets that you do in town. Work is when you're on the road.

   25. SPSteven Pressfield4:58

       Oh.

   26. JRJoe Rogan4:58

       So the work is ... So, like, say, if you do a weekend at a comedy club. Now, that pays well. That's where m- the majority of comedians make their living, is doing weekends on the road or maybe even weekdays-

   27. SPSteven Pressfield5:11

       Uh-huh.

   28. JRJoe Rogan5:12

       ... on the road. So then you're doing a show. And can ... The idea is that you've crafted all this material on your own, in writing, and then in front of the crowd, doing spots and y- you know, and, and doing it around town. And then when you go on the road, then you have a show to put on. And that's-

   29. SPSteven Pressfield5:32

       Now, what's-

   30. JRJoe Rogan5:32

       ... that's work.
3. 12:09 – 17:33

   Pressfield’s core theory of Resistance: ego vs the “greater Self”

   1. JRJoe Rogan12:09

      What do you think it i- When, when did you write the War of Art? What year was it?

   2. SPSteven Pressfield12:12

      2002.

   3. JRJoe Rogan12:13

      And in that time after writing that n- um, I'm sure, uh, it's, it's obviously being, been a very successful book, so you've had time to think about this. Like, what do you think is going on? Like, why are people ... wh- why is that a force of nature? What is it?

   4. SPSteven Pressfield12:28

      Um, I'll, I'll gi- this is a, my lengthy explanation-

   5. JRJoe Rogan12:31

      Okay.

   6. SPSteven Pressfield12:31

      ... but I'll give you my theory.

   7. JRJoe Rogan12:32

      Please.

   8. SPSteven Pressfield12:34

      If we think of the human ... So everybody just gotta bear with me. This takes a minute or two. If you think of the human psyche, we got the ego, which is like a little black dot in the middle of a greater thing that we would call the Self, like the Jungian Self with a capital S. And the Self contains the collective unconscious, all the aspects of the unconscious, right? Um, the hero's journey, the archetypes of the unconscious, all of the sort of intuitive stuff, right? When you, I would imagine, come up with great comedy material or any kinda material, it's coming from that Self, coming from that deeper place, right? And even when, uh, Jung or Joseph Campbell describe the Self, they have a ... I have a little diagram in The War of Art where adjacent to this larger Self, they've like three arrows and the arrows are coming from what they call the Divine Ground, which I take to mean whatever greater force is out there, you know, that, that will come to you. So, this is a long way of saying that the ego, which is, right, your I part, the part that identifies with this body and with the ... The ego wants to be in control, right? The ego is the way you drive down to the store. You get a ... whatever it is, right? But when you're trying to tap into that greater intelligence, like if you're writing, if you're trying to come up to ... if you're a musician, if you're any kind of creative person, you're trying to, to surrender to that Self, to that greater Self. And I feel like the ego hates that. The ego knows if you make that shift to identify with that greater Self, then the ego is outta business. So I think, this is my theory, that the ego produces resistance to try to stop you from, from connecting and trusting and believing, 'cause it is a leap of faith, right, to get that other level-

   9. JRJoe Rogan14:32

      Mm-hmm.

   10. SPSteven Pressfield14:32

       ... wherever it is. So the ego says to you, "Who do you think you are to try to m- tap into that thing? Who do you think you are to come up with this idea? It's been done a million times better than you'll ever do it. You don't have the chops to do this. You're gonna fall on your ass," etc., etc., etc.

   11. JRJoe Rogan14:46

       Mm-hmm.

   12. SPSteven Pressfield14:47

       Or, "Let me distract you. Why don't we chase some women? Why don't we get drunk? Why don't we hang out with our buddies?" Whatever it is. But so I think that what the ego wants is to maintain its control, right? And if you make that shift into the, into that greater Self, that's when you really are starting to tap into great stuff. That's where the great stuff comes from-

   13. JRJoe Rogan15:07

       Yeah.

   14. SPSteven Pressfield15:07

       ... right? And that puts the ego out of a job. At least that ... This is my theory, Joe. So the ... I think that the ego produces it. I mean, it's be- interest- it's interesting sort of ... Animals don't experience resistance. I'm sure they don't, right? Be-

   15. JRJoe Rogan15:21

       Right. But they also don't-

   16. SPSteven Pressfield15:22

       ... be- 'cause they're-

   17. JRJoe Rogan15:22

       ... experience creativity.

   18. SPSteven Pressfield15:24

       True. But, but they're in that greater world, I think, naturally, you know?

   19. JRJoe Rogan15:29

       Right.

   20. SPSteven Pressfield15:29

       Um, they're-

   21. JRJoe Rogan15:30

       They're free.

   22. SPSteven Pressfield15:31

       ... th- they, they're in that God energy, you know?

   23. JRJoe Rogan15:33

       Mm-hmm.

   24. SPSteven Pressfield15:33

       An eagle or somebody that's flying, you know, you watch like the tiniest little wings or feathers even, you know, control it. They're not thinking about anything, right, when they're hunting or whatever it is. So anyway, that's, that's my theory on what, on what resistance is. Now, Seth Godin, you know who he is, he's a believer that it's the, uh, the, um-

   25. JRJoe Rogan15:52

       Who is Seth Godin? I do not know who he is.

   26. SPSteven Pressfield15:54

       S- Seth Godin is a kind of a marketing guru, one of the earliest guys on, on the, on the internet from way back when, when it first began, and, uh, is a great, um, teacher of marketing and stuff like that, and also a wonderful guy-

   27. JRJoe Rogan16:11

       There he is.

   28. SPSteven Pressfield16:12

       ... and this ... there he is ... in the sense that he is m- highly ethical dude. Like, when he talks about, um, businesses, startups, and all the things that he's kind of, uh, helping people with, ethics is a huge part of it. So I really respect the guy. And he's a great deep thinker too. Now he thinks it's what he calls the lizard brain, the amygdala, which I'm not even sure what that is. I guess it's the reptile brain at the back of your head, that that's what's producing something that wants ... producing resistance. But anyway, I respect his thinking on that, but I think it's what I just explained to you or ...

   29. JRJoe Rogan16:49

       What you're saying makes a lot of sense. And the, the ego, whatever that thing is that i- it's, it's so interesting how it's not able to see that it would actually benefit the ego if you didn't have resistance.

   30. SPSteven Pressfield17:07

       Yes.
4. 17:33 – 20:52

   Fear vs love: how worldview shapes creativity and why ego clings

   1. SPSteven Pressfield17:33

      It's a de- it's a deep subject because also-

   2. JRJoe Rogan17:35

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SPSteven Pressfield17:35

      ... if you think about the ego's view of what life is, you know ... I'm gonna go into some deep stuff for you to mind this stuff, right?

   4. JRJoe Rogan17:44

      You don't have to clarify, just feel free.

   5. SPSteven Pressfield17:45

      The ego has a whole view. The ego believes that this material world...... is all there is, right?

   6. JRJoe Rogan17:55

      Yeah.

   7. SPSteven Pressfield17:55

      The ego believes in death. The ego believes that when this body dies, we die, right? The ego believes that this flesh can be hurt, you know? It can be maimed. It can be broken, etc., etc. So the ego is naturally... lives in fear. I think that the, the predominant emotion of the ego... If we're living in the ego, wh- which is 99% of people do, our predominant emotion is fear, right? And fear, uh... even though we might not know it. Fear of death, which is kind of why people want to achieve, I think, right? "Let me make a name for myself," blah, blah, blah. Why people wanna have children, their children will live on. Why they have insurance, why they try to succeed and have a big house, and this and that and the other thing, right? That's all sort of coming out of, out of an- out of a, uh, a mindset of fear. Whereas this giant self, in my opinion, the bigger self that is connected to the thing, its predominant emotion is love, if you ask me. Now the ego... Another thing the ego believes is that, "I am separate from you." Right? "We are all separate individuals," right? "I could hurt you, and it won't hurt me." That's what the ego thinks, right? That's why so much of the evil that happens in the world comes out of that, right? "We can torture these sons of bitches, and it won't happen to us," right? "Nothing bad'll happen to us." But the self believes exactly the opposite. Once you get into that deep level, right, that we are not separate from one another, that you and I are bound together in some kind of way, along with all of humanity and all of the animal life and all of the planet, all of the oceans, and all of that. And so the predominant emotion in that self is the emotion of love. So the ego... This is my belief, anyway. The ego, being centered in fear, is gonna try to hang on to what it's got, right? If the ego thinks that it's living our life, it's calling the shots, it's gonna hang onto that, you know, out of, out of fear. And won't... That's why I think it's so strong, the resistance is so strong. When, when you... The closer you get to moving into that self, into that greater space. Like, if you're sitting down and trying to write a novel, and you get into a kind of a flow of it, that's what the ego is really afraid of. Because it's such a kind of empowering and intoxicating experience, the ego says to itself, "Shit, if this guy stays over here very long, he's never gonna go back to, you know, to where I re- pull the, call the shots." So, I think that's why it, it, it makes itself... it, it puts such a, an intense shot at you to stop you from getting there.

   8. JRJoe Rogan20:36

      So, this greater self. What is... If... Like, w- what do you think that is? If, if the greater self is all about love, and the greater self is what recognizes the connection between all of us, what is the greater self?

5. 20:52 – 27:03

   Psychedelics and the “bigger world”: expanded perception vs daily survival mode

   1. SPSteven Pressfield20:52

      Okay, it's a great question. I know that you're a guy that's into psychedelics to some extent, right?

   2. JRJoe Rogan20:56

      Yeah.

   3. SPSteven Pressfield20:56

      I mean, when you... Now, my only experience with psychedelics is back in the '60s, you know? So I haven't done any of the stuff that people are doing now.

   4. JRJoe Rogan21:03

      You want some?

   5. SPSteven Pressfield21:04

      No, thank you (laughs) .

   6. JRJoe Rogan21:06

      Okay.

   7. SPSteven Pressfield21:06

      I'm too old for that.

   8. JRJoe Rogan21:07

      You're not too old.

   9. SPSteven Pressfield21:08

      But, but one of the things that you know-

   10. JRJoe Rogan21:10

       You have resistance. That's resistance to psychedelics.

   11. SPSteven Pressfield21:12

       (laughs) Maybe so. But one of the things that you know from LSD or from mescaline or anything like that, right, is you suddenly see a whole other world that was not there before, right? Even though you're looking at that wall, all of a sudden that wall becomes so beautiful, right, that you, you can't even say anything except, "Wow." Right? So that, I believe... I, I would... I was thinking in those moments, "This must be the way Jesus sees the world, or the Dalai Lama sees the world, or, or God sees the world." And when I come back to my regular self, and I see this kind of normal shrunk-down world, that's not the real world, right? There's another world that's greater. And so that's sort of my feeling about it, Joe. That, that, that when the self... When you enter that... There is a greater world. We're living in that greater world right now. We just can't see it, you know? We're just... We just see what's in front of us. And I think another aspect of it, to me... You would know a lot more about this than I do, being more in the present of this, is that if you're living in that kind of psychedelic world, you really can't drive a car. You really can't operate heavy equipment. You really can't handle the stuff you have to handle. You can't do your taxes, right? So in order to kind of live, you do have to sort of shrink, shrink that world down, right?

   12. JRJoe Rogan22:36

       Mm.

   13. SPSteven Pressfield22:36

       To, to, you know, push the, the, all the beauty aside and all the amazing shit aside.

   14. JRJoe Rogan22:42

       Yeah.

   15. SPSteven Pressfield22:42

       But that doesn't stop the fact that that stuff is there, right? I always wonder, "What was it like before we were born, and what's it gonna be like after we die?" Are, are we gonna live in that world? Are we gonna enter that world again? And what is that... What'll, what'll, what will that be like?

   16. JRJoe Rogan23:00

       Do you think that this narrowed-down world that you're talking about when you, when the psychedelics wear off, do you think that's an artifact of the cold, hard reality of being an animal living amongst predators and other, other violent human beings on Earth? Where, in order to survive, in order to raise your children and protect your village and provide food to each other, you kinda have to have this very simplistic, just w- just, as you said, narrowed-down? This, this different... Where you can't just wax euphorically about the, the, the concept of the universe and life and, and, and love, and, you know? You have-

   17. SPSteven Pressfield23:48

       I do. I do believe that, yes.

   18. JRJoe Rogan23:50

       You think... Yeah.

   19. SPSteven Pressfield23:50

       And I think that's why, again, like, what I was saying about the ego being, being dominated by the emotion of fear, right? And also, our parents, right, and our society, our school, everything, for our own good-... as we're kids growing up, tells us all that, right?

   20. JRJoe Rogan24:06

       Mm.

   21. SPSteven Pressfield24:06

       It kind of indoctrinates us into that world, for our own good, right?

   22. JRJoe Rogan24:10

       Yeah.

   23. SPSteven Pressfield24:10

       It wants to protect us, you know? "On your way walking to school, somebody's gonna beat you up," blah, blah, blah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan24:15

       Right.

   25. SPSteven Pressfield24:16

       Um, so yeah. I do think that's the case. It's kind of a strange world, isn't it, that God created for us?

   26. JRJoe Rogan24:22

       Mm.

   27. SPSteven Pressfield24:22

       I mean, on the one hand, there's this beautiful other-dimensional reality out there. But then there's this hardcore world of predators, you know? In order to, you know... Like, what did you just have on Instagram today, a alligator taking off the leg off a deer? I mean, that's, that, uh-

   28. JRJoe Rogan24:39

       Did I?

   29. SPSteven Pressfield24:40

       You don't even know if, what was there, but it's there. We just saw it a few minutes ago. But, I-

   30. JRJoe Rogan24:44

       I had it on Instagram?
6. 27:03 – 37:56

   Rituals that beat Resistance: Sober October, discipline, and structured accountability

   1. JRJoe Rogan27:03

      Yeah, there's something to it. You know, me and my friends, uh, Tom and Ari and Burt, we do this thing every year, uh, called Sober October. And generally, we come up with, when we do Sober October, we come up with some sort of a challenge. And one year was, we had to do, uh, 15 yoga sessions in the 31 days of October, and, you know, 90-minute yoga sessions. And then the other, the next time, we had to do a fitness contest where we, we counted up the amount of energy, each one of us. We were using an app and we were trying to compete in the winner, you know, you know, whatever. So, we, we, we did that. And then, uh, other years, we've done different things. And then this year, we decided what we're gonna do is we're gonna work out seven days a week. Every day, you have to burn 500 calories. So, we've kinda decided that a competition is too fucked up 'cause I'm kinda crazy and I, I get over-competitive and it's not fun.

   2. SPSteven Pressfield27:58

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan27:58

      Not fun for my family, not fun for me, 'cause I go crazy. So, it was, it's way better to not be competitive and just, we all are held accountable to this one thing. So, this one thing was you had to do 100 pushups every day, and you had to burn 500 calories in a workout. And so everyone did it, and we sent each other screenshots of our apps, and we all talked about it. And one of the things we all came out of, at the end of it, was like knowing that you had to do this thing was so different than just going, "Oh, I probably should work out today. Maybe I won't. Maybe I'll fuck off." Like, t- today, for instance. I was up late last night. I got home from the c- um, from the comedy show. Uh, I did a little mushrooms, and then, uh, I did a little writing. And I didn't go to bed until, like, 2:30, 3:00. And so, I woke up at 10:00. I was like, "God, I should work out, but I don't fucking feel like working out." I go, "Let me just get in the sauna and do the cold plunge," which is my m- minimum amount of things that I do every day.

   4. SPSteven Pressfield28:59

      Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

   5. JRJoe Rogan28:59

      But then, after I did that, I was like, "You should've worked out, man." But I didn't. Right? So I didn't. But if I, if it was the Sober October month, I would have had to-

   6. SPSteven Pressfield29:08

      Ah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan29:09

      ... 'cause I ha- 'cause I had those nights during Sober October where I was up late and I only got, like, six hours sleep-

   8. SPSteven Pressfield29:14

      Uh-huh.

   9. JRJoe Rogan29:14

      ... but I still got that workout in 'cause I had to do it. When you have a thing that you must do every day, that's how you get productive. And what we found, all of us found, is there's this alleviation of anxiety that comes from doing these workouts every day, that was like... I was, we were all talking, I was like, "If this was a pill that I could take, I'd take that pill all day, if it had no side effects."

   10. SPSteven Pressfield29:39

       Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

   11. JRJoe Rogan29:39

       In fact, this pill makes you healthier, but instead of a pill, it's an hour to an hour and a half of arduous physical work. Like, very difficult physical work. You're pouring sweat and, and when it's over, you're exhausted, but healthier? And then the anxiety level is like (snaps fingers) nil. Like, nothing bothers you. You feel so good. You've all- you've tooken your tension like, like your body's a wet rag and just rang out all the tension, just dripped it out. And the fact that you have to do it every day, it kind of eliminates this whole resistance thing, because you can't entertain it. And because we're all accountable and we're all texting each other, and you know, we're in a group text...

   12. SPSteven Pressfield30:25

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan30:26

       It was great. It's great.

   14. SPSteven Pressfield30:27

       So, why not do it 12 months of the year?

   15. JRJoe Rogan30:30

       Um, I don't know if it's sustainable, but what I am doing is five days a week.

   16. SPSteven Pressfield30:34

       Uh-huh.

   17. JRJoe Rogan30:34

       So, five days a week, I do it now. So, instead of seven days a week, I do it five days a week.

   18. SPSteven Pressfield30:38

       Uh-huh.

   19. JRJoe Rogan30:39

       Which is, uh, 'cause I travel, do-

   20. SPSteven Pressfield30:41

       Uh-huh.

   21. JRJoe Rogan30:41

       ... other stuff. It's-

   22. SPSteven Pressfield30:42

       Uh-huh.

   23. JRJoe Rogan30:42

       ... it's more sustainable. But it seems very effective. So, today, uh, I bitched out, so now I know that, uh, I only have six more days... Well-

   24. SPSteven Pressfield30:51

       Uh-huh.

   25. JRJoe Rogan30:51

       ... you know, I, I worked out yesterday. But there's only a certain amount of days in the week. Right? So, now, I've got three more days that I must get in. No if, ands, or buts. Those have to be done, 'cause I did Monday and Tuesday, and then I fucked off today, so I've got other days. But I've gotta... But it's not the same as if, if you, if you're doing it every day, like, if it's a religion, which is why I understand why people would get up in the morning, and you have to pray. Get up in the morning, you know, face the east, get on your hands and knees and bow. Like, it, there's something to that that hijacks all of that resistance shit. All of the things that hold you back from finding your greater self. All the things that hold you back from accomplishing your true potential in this life.

   26. SPSteven Pressfield31:41

       Yeah. And I think w- what that is, to me, is an exercise, like, a ritualistic exercise in overcoming resistance.

   27. JRJoe Rogan31:49

       Yes.

   28. SPSteven Pressfield31:49

       And in getting into that other, that greater place. Right?

   29. JRJoe Rogan31:52

       Yes.

   30. SPSteven Pressfield31:52

       When you say, "wrung out," that's you're wrung out of every ego thought.
7. 37:56 – 50:47

   Living without long-range goals: projects, curiosity, and “the muse’s next assignment”

   1. SPSteven Pressfield37:56

      We still have the same things, but yet we have this other potential. Let me ask you something, Joe. Like, where do you see yourself w- in five years or 10 years? Or, or let me put it a different way. It's clear to me that you are exploring something, and you're, you're, you're trying to, you're trying to project your mind into another greater realm. What, what exactly... How do you see this odyssey that you're on right now? What, what are you, what are you aiming for? What are you hoping to achieve 5 years, 10 years from now? Who do you, who do you hope to be?

   2. JRJoe Rogan38:32

      I don't.

   3. SPSteven Pressfield38:33

      Ah. (laughs)

   4. JRJoe Rogan38:34

      I don't think like that.

   5. SPSteven Pressfield38:35

      You don't?

   6. JRJoe Rogan38:35

      No, I just do things that I like to do.

   7. SPSteven Pressfield38:37

      Ah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan38:38

      I'm very simple. (laughs)

   9. SPSteven Pressfield38:40

      Ah, ha. Ah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan38:41

       No, legitimately. I don't have goals like that.

   11. SPSteven Pressfield38:43

       Ah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan38:43

       I try to do better at everything that I do.

   13. SPSteven Pressfield38:46

       Ah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan38:46

       Like, I would like to be better at archery. I would like to be better at playing pool. I'd like to be better at standup comedy. I'd like to be better at being a podcast host. I'd like to be better at doing UFC commentary. So, every time I do a thing, I assess my performance. I think about it. I write things down. I work hard at it, and I do the same with being a father. I do the same with being a husband. I do the same being a friend. I do the same with, uh, b- being an employer.

   15. SPSteven Pressfield39:16

       I think you may be overly modest here now 'cause I know that you're, just from the people that you bring on the show, you want... You're exposing yourself to all kinds of different points of view, right? To each-

   16. JRJoe Rogan39:28

       And I'm a- but I'm also exposing the world to them.

   17. SPSteven Pressfield39:31

       Yes.

   18. JRJoe Rogan39:31

       That's part of my goal, too, when, when someone's interesting.

   19. SPSteven Pressfield39:33

       But like you say, you have a great curiosity. You're not doing that 'cause you're not interested in it.

   20. JRJoe Rogan39:38

       Right.

   21. SPSteven Pressfield39:38

       You're interested in it.

   22. JRJoe Rogan39:39

       I'm definitely-

   23. SPSteven Pressfield39:39

       Right?

   24. JRJoe Rogan39:39

       ... interested, yes.

   25. SPSteven Pressfield39:40

       And you're also exploring kind of inner worlds, your own inner world-

   26. JRJoe Rogan39:43

       Yes.

   27. SPSteven Pressfield39:44

       ... you know, with the help of chemicals or whatever it is. So, it's more than just getting better at something, isn't it?

   28. JRJoe Rogan39:50

       Yes, but the, but I'm genuinely not try... I don't have a goal.

   29. SPSteven Pressfield39:54

       Ah-huh.

   30. JRJoe Rogan39:54

       I genuinely don't have a goal-
8. 50:47 – 1:04:57

   Muse as practice: Dispenza, anthropomorphizing inspiration, and the Odyssey prayer

   1. SPSteven Pressfield50:47

      Do you know who Dr. Joe Dispenza is?

   2. JRJoe Rogan50:49

      Yeah, I've heard of that guy. Yeah.

   3. SPSteven Pressfield50:50

      Does that ring a bell? Now, he talks about this in a whole other vocabulary. He talks about the quantum world, whatever that is, which is what I would call the muse. It's that l- greater self, right? So, he looks at it from a whole other perspective. He would say he wants to get out of the ego, leave that behind, and it's psychedelic in a way too. He, he talks about getting into that world where you are no one and no place.

   4. JRJoe Rogan51:17

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SPSteven Pressfield51:18

      And no thing. And the senses are gone, and all that's left is vibration and awareness, you know? So, that's his way of talking about that. For me, I kind of... I'm sort of anthropomorphic. I like to imagine a, you know, something with a human face.

   6. JRJoe Rogan51:34

      Mm.

   7. SPSteven Pressfield51:34

      You know, a goddess with that little Greek hairstyle and a little thing, yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan51:37

      That's what you think of?

   9. SPSteven Pressfield51:38

      Yeah, definitely.

   10. JRJoe Rogan51:40

       (laughs) So, I mean, but as long as you have a thing that you're concentrating on that you sort of give up your, y- uh, the, your control of the moment to, and that you respect enough that you're gonna show up every day and put in the work and, and address this thing. Like, you actually have a, like a prayer to the goddess.

   11. SPSteven Pressfield51:58

       I do, yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan51:59

       Yeah. What is the prayer? Can you tell us what it is? What do you say?

   13. SPSteven Pressfield52:01

       Yeah, sure. Uh, it's actually, uh, a mentor of mine, a guy named Paul Rink, gave me this, printed this out, typed this out. It's the prayer from Homer's Odyssey, the opening invocation of the muse, as Homer himself was sitting... If you look at the first 12 lines of The Odyssey, that's his kind of prayer to the muse. And, uh, do you want me to, to say it-

   14. JRJoe Rogan52:27

       Sure.

   15. SPSteven Pressfield52:27

       ... out loud?

   16. JRJoe Rogan52:28

       Sure.

   17. SPSteven Pressfield52:28

       Okay. And I say this every morning out loud. Paul taught me this. It goes like this, "Oh, divine poesy, goddess, daughter of Zeus, sustain for me this song..." I'm getting goosebumps as I'm saying this. "... Of the various-minded man who, after he had plundered the innermost citadel of hallowed Troy, ah, was made to stray grievously about the coasts of men, the sport of their customs, good and bad, while his heart, through all the seafaring, ached with an agony to redeem himself and bring his company safe home." And it kind of continues through that, you know, um, "For his fellows, he strove in vain." I'll, I'll just skip to the end. "Make this tale live for us in all its many bearings, oh muse."

   18. JRJoe Rogan53:19

       Hey.

   19. SPSteven Pressfield53:19

       So, um, and what's interesting about that, Joe, there are a lot of things interesting about that, but that sort of paradigm of a story of o- of Odysseus, the various-minded man, if you look at almost any novel, any movie, any legend, anyone, that fits, you know? And I've found that any novel that I've been working on, I don't know how many I've done, 10 or 11 or something like that, I say that prayer, and I'm amazed that the story I'm working on fits exactly. There's always somebody that's kind of been cast out into exile-

   20. JRJoe Rogan53:54

       Mm-hmm.

   21. SPSteven Pressfield53:54

       ... and is lost, and is trying to get home, whatever home means, and is struggling, struggling, struggling. And so, Homer, I'm sure he did believe in the muse. I mean, that was whatever it was 3,200 years ago, something like that. Those gods and goddesses were real.

   22. JRJoe Rogan54:13

       Yeah.

   23. SPSteven Pressfield54:13

       You know, for whatever this is worth, the Spartans, the ancient Spartans, we know they were as hardcore as they could possibly be. When their army would march out on a campaign and they got to the frontier of, of Lacedaemon, the name of their c- their, their region of Greece, they would take the omens. And if the omens were unfavorable, the whole army would turn around and go home. So, they took it pretty seriously.

   24. JRJoe Rogan54:40

       Yeah.

   25. SPSteven Pressfield54:40

       They... S- And, and, you know, I do too.

   26. JRJoe Rogan54:45

       That seems a little ridiculous.

   27. SPSteven Pressfield54:46

       (laughs)

   28. JRJoe Rogan54:47

       That's just superstitious. I mean, it's like, but that's the dance. It's like, how much control are you gonna give to this idea? Are you gonna give it when it benefits you, or are you gonna give it to the point where you, you, you run the risk of becoming paranoid?

   29. SPSteven Pressfield55:03

       True. True.

   30. JRJoe Rogan55:03

       And then you get sabotaged.
9. 1:04:57 – 1:14:21

   Modern life vs human nature: news as Resistance, fear addiction, and civic balance

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:04:57

      There's probably something to this deeper understanding, because they were less burdened down by, like, dogma and, you know... I mean, you, if you really only had the culture of the people that you were surrounded by, you know, that's all you had, maybe, maybe you had less things to consider about, like... I think we're very much burdened by media and the outside world. I mean, think about all the, the fearmongering that goes on in the news, because if it bleeds, it leads. Whatever's scary is the thing that gets-

   2. SPSteven Pressfield1:05:30

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:05:30

      ... the, the, the head headline. So you're constantly taking in all this data that's scaring the shit out of you. Like, Bill Hicks used to have a great... Do you know who Bill Hicks was?

   4. SPSteven Pressfield1:05:38

      No, no.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:05:39

      Great standup comedian who died young.

   6. SPSteven Pressfield1:05:42

      Ah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:05:42

      And was one of the most influential standup comedians maybe ever. Um, so much so that there was a, there was a green room at The Punch Line in Georgia, in Atlanta, and when you'd work there, in the green room before you go on stage, someone had written on the walls, "Quit trying to be Hicks."

   8. SPSteven Pressfield1:05:57

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:05:57

      'Cause so many comedians-

   10. SPSteven Pressfield1:05:59

       Uh-huh.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:05:59

       ... were so, they were so blown away by him-

   12. SPSteven Pressfield1:06:02

       That's true, that's great.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:06:02

       ... that they kinda imitated him.

   14. SPSteven Pressfield1:06:04

       Uh-huh.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:06:04

       It was really common. But he had this bit about, um, CNN, that you'd watch CNN and it was war, death, famine, disease, and he'd go outside and birds are chirping, he's like, "Where is this shit?"

   16. SPSteven Pressfield1:06:17

       (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:06:17

       He's like, "Ted Turner's making-"

   18. SPSteven Pressfield1:06:18

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:06:18

       "... all this shit up."

   20. SPSteven Pressfield1:06:19

       Yeah, yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:06:20

       Like, this, like, the... In your life, this didn't exist, and that y- y- you, you, you really need to be concerned with the things you actually encounter. But now we're, we're not. Now we're encountering these enormous problems like global war or the, the temperature, the climate's changing, and it's human beings and we have to change how we extract energy and information, and what are we, what are we doing? Like, totally. And why is there so much crime and why is there so much poverty and why is education so fucked? And why do these terrible people wanna run the planet? And why are they extracting money? And why are they... Like, they're almost dead, they're 80 years old and they're still concentrating on the same goddamn thing that people were concentrated on when they were cave people, just acquiring resources and dominating the other cultures. And, like, we're overrun by so much extraneous data, and I think that if we were not and we were living in these sort of tribal environments, I think it, it's more in align with a, a natural way of life, and maybe being more in line with a natural way that the, the human animal evolved to exist in.... that maybe you have more freedom to think about the very source of life, the very source of these thoughts, the source of love-

   22. SPSteven Pressfield1:07:49

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:07:49

       ... the source of creativity and of progress, and what all that means.

   24. SPSteven Pressfield1:07:55

       Yeah. I think of sometimes, like, 10,000 years ago, the first yogis in the Indus Valley, or wherever the hell they were, right? Where they had infinite time, you would think, right? They were okay, and they could just work postures and poses, and s- and study, you know, what happens when this little... when you release this little muscle here, and when your spine is aligned in exactly the right way.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:08:21

       Mm-hmm.

   26. SPSteven Pressfield1:08:21

       And they had, like, generation after generation after generation, right? Father to son, and mother to f- daughter, whatever. Uh, what did, what did they get to? You know, the energy coming up the spine, the chakras, all... Where does all that... I have no idea what that is. I just have a, you know, a kind of a layman's knowledge of that. But think about hundreds of years of doing that, of just focusing inward, or the great, you know, meditating people that would get... God only knows where they got to.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:08:48

       Yeah.

   28. SPSteven Pressfield1:08:48

       You know? And, and it's... You know? No CNN. Nothing to distract them.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:08:54

       Yeah.

   30. SPSteven Pressfield1:08:55

       It, it's, uh... And the other thing, the news, CNN and all that sort of stuff, is really the voice of resistance. You couldn't define it more, you know, than what's coming out. It's all fear, fear, fear, fear, fear. It's all, "Us versus them. You're alone, I'm alone. These motherfuckers are trying to take what you've got."
10. 1:14:21 – 1:29:06

    Meaningful work in a corporate world: escaping the banker life via craft and the internet

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:14:21

       Yeah, well then, you know, one of the things that I, uh, when I was, I was reading a bunch of ... I got into a kick for about a year and a half where I read many books about Native American culture and the, what happened when the settlers made their way across the United States. And one of the things that's fascinating is there was a bunch of people, whether they were trappers or soldiers or just regular civilians, that gave up on modern life and were incorporated into Native American cultures. They, they wound up living with the Native Americans. Some of them were even kidnapped by the Native Americans when they're young.

    2. SPSteven Pressfield1:14:58

       Yeah, yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:14:59

       And then re- recaptured by the Americans and brought back to, you know, quote unquote-

    4. SPSteven Pressfield1:15:05

       Yeah.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:15:05

       ... "civilization." They all wanted to go back.

    6. SPSteven Pressfield1:15:08

       Yeah, yeah.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:15:08

       They all wanted to go back.

    8. SPSteven Pressfield1:15:09

       Yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:15:10

       To a, to a man.

    10. SPSteven Pressfield1:15:11

        Yeah.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:15:11

        No one from that tribe wanted to join-

    12. SPSteven Pressfield1:15:14

        Yeah.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:15:14

        ... modern civilization. But everyone from modern civilization wanted to be a part of that tribe.

    14. SPSteven Pressfield1:15:20

        Yeah.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:15:20

        Once th- once they, you know, were incorporated in it and they lived that life for a while, there's something about it that was far more satisfying and, uh, far more ... it resonated with them in a way that, you know. And even then, I mean, this very primitive society we're talking about, 1860s America, but that, that was not exciting. That was not satisfying. That was not what they wanted to do. They wanted to live off the land.

    16. SPSteven Pressfield1:15:44

        Yeah.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:15:45

        They wanted to be traveling.

    18. SPSteven Pressfield1:15:47

        Yeah.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:15:47

        Just, you know, hunting buffalo.

    20. SPSteven Pressfield1:15:49

        I mean, can we go back to that? I don't know (laughs) if we can go back to that.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:15:52

        I don't think we can. (laughs) I don't think there's any going back.

    22. SPSteven Pressfield1:15:53

        But it does seem to be the way that the human being is the happiest, you know?

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:15:58

        Well, I think it's the way we evolved. And these human reward systems are just sort of ingrained in the fiber of our being.

    24. SPSteven Pressfield1:16:07

        Yeah.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:16:07

        And th- the, the reward systems are, there's a feeling that you get when you catch a fish. You ever go fishing?

    26. SPSteven Pressfield1:16:12

        Uh, I have.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:16:13

        When you catch-

    28. SPSteven Pressfield1:16:14

        But I'm not good at it. (laughs)

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:16:15

        You don't have to be good at it. But there's a feeling that you get when you get a big fish on the line. It's so exciting. Well, what is that feeling? That feeling is you're gonna be able to feed your family.

    30. SPSteven Pressfield1:16:23

        Yeah.

Episode duration: 2:48:06