Joe Rogan Experience #1904 - Neil deGrasse Tyson

Narrator 0:00 (drum music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (energetic music)

Neil deGrasse Tyson 0:12 I don't wanna... Every one of my sentences to sound like Barry White.

Joe Rogan 0:15 Is that what it sounds like-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 0:16 I- i- in-

Joe Rogan 0:16 ... in your ears?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 0:17 ... headphones, they do. It's like, "Oh hey, baby."

Joe Rogan 0:20 (laughs)

Neil deGrasse Tyson 0:20 (laughs) I, I just can't. Whereas without the headphones I, I'm just regular.

Joe Rogan 0:24 All right, ready?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 0:25 I'm ready.

Joe Rogan 0:25 Good to see you.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 0:26 Hey.

Joe Rogan 0:27 What's happening?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 0:27 Joe.

Joe Rogan 0:28 I'm excited to talk to you. I'm excited to talk to you about a bunch of things, but, uh, I've been paying attention to all the, uh, web telescope stuff.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 0:35 Oh my gosh.

Joe Rogan 0:36 Fascinating.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 0:36 It's all that.

Joe Rogan 0:37 Could you please explain the difference in the ability of... The capabilities of this telescope versus what we've had previously?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 0:45 Yeah. So first of all, it's all that, and the excitement was in part because so much could have gone wrong with this thing, and the fact that nothing went wrong, we were ecstatic.

Joe Rogan 0:58 Could you explain the... How complicated it is-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01 ... to get something-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:02 Here-

Joe Rogan 1:02 ... like that.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:02 ... yeah. Here's... So one of the great challenges that we face is how do you put a telescope in orbit that's bigger than the rocket that's gonna launch it? Is that even possible? And the Hubble Telescope, do you know what set the size of that 94-inch diameter mirror? That's the biggest mirror you could fit in the payload of the space shuttle. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:25 Oh.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:26 That's what set the size of that telescope. Big as it was, we would've made it bigger if the space shuttle were bigger. Now, I don't know if you've seen the Hubble Telescope. There's a replica of it at the Air and Space Museum in, in-

Joe Rogan 1:37 Let's take a... Let's look a photo of it.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:39 Uh, and it'll just... Uh, it's there hanging from the ceiling. But if you wanna know how... It's about the size of a Greyhound bus. So the space shuttle deployed a Greyhound bus into orbit, which is the Hubble Space Telescope. And the, the value of the Hubble was that you could update it, w- by s... With servicing missions, and it was serviced many times. And as a result, it lived within our culture for three decades. There are people who came of age only ever knowing the majesty of the universe as delivered to you by the Hubble Telescope. 30 years worth of this. Think about it.

Joe Rogan 2:15 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 2:16 Most other telescopes they put into orbit, and they have a five-year mission, and then they come down. So they don't have a chance to get, to get inside you, to become something that you, that you... Uh, oh, you got a nice, uh, visual there. So that's the Hubble Telescope on the left, which every year, every year I post a tweet (laughs) at the end of the Stanley Cup, and I say, "The Stanley Cup and the Hubble Telescope had the same designer." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:44 Really?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 2:44 Just kid... No, I'm just kidding. (laughs) No, just look at the thing.

Joe Rogan 2:47 Oh.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 2:47 It looks like the Stanley Cup-

Joe Rogan 2:48 A little bit.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 2:49 ... a ti- a ti- a lot.

Joe Rogan 2:50 I wouldn't confuse the two if they were in a room together.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 2:52 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:53 (laughs)

Neil deGrasse Tyson 2:54 So here's the thing. So notice the Hubble Telescope, its diameter is, is this spherical shape that fits in this spherical payload of the space shuttle. So now we wanna put a bigger telescope into orbit. How do you do that? And so this is where you need engineers, clever engineers. We say, "Here's a rocket, one of the most powerful rockets we can use, but the fairing, that's the place where you hold the payload, can only be so big." And they say, "All right, why don't we fold the telescope?" Now, how are you gonna fold the mirror? Oh, you turn the mirror into segments, hexagons. Hexagons, one of only three shapes that can tile a surface. A square, a triangle, and a hexagon. No other shape can do this. So... Well, you can have other irregular shapes that can match up. Uh, you can tessellate, what it's called. But if you have a reg... what's called a regular polygon... So here, uh, uh, in the image there, what you can see is all of the mirror segments. Those fold into a narrow structure along with the, the unfurling, uh, uh, uh, solar panels as well as the heat shield. Uh, notice that was made at Northrop Grumman. By the way, Grumman has a long history in helping NASA put stuff in space. The LEM, Lunar Excursion Module, remember that?

Joe Rogan 4:19 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 4:19 The thing that landed on the moon? That was designed and built in Bethpage, Long Island at Grumman Aerospace. And so this is... And you go to Bethpage today, people still stand tall 'cause they had aunts and uncles who worked on that project. Space, uh, is a, is a force of nature unto itself in our sense of pride, in our sense of achievement, in our sense of what operates on civilization to take us into the future, lest we continue to regress and move back into the cave-

Joe Rogan 4:55 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 4:55 ... which we came. There it is all folded up in the image that we now see-

Joe Rogan 4:59 Oh, wow.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 4:59 ... for those who are watching this. And you slip that into a fairing, and then you launch it a million miles from Earth, opposite the sun from Earth, and it unfurls like petals of a flower.

Joe Rogan 5:15 Is there an animation of how that goes down?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 5:17 Oh, yeah. Yeah, they have... Yeah, a slow-mo animation. Y- y- sure he can find it, and it's the deployment, uh, how it deployed as it was on its way to its location, which is one of the Lagrangian points in orbit. For every two objects that orbit each other, there are five Lagrangian points.

Joe Rogan 5:34 Oh, yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 5:34 So here we are unfolding. So there we have solar panels coming out the side, and there's the, uh, uh, uh, communication, uh, antenna. And it has a unique set of baffles that shield it from sunlight so that the mirror and the detector can be very, very cold because it's designed... It's specially tuned to observe infrared....that comes to us from space.

Joe Rogan 6:06 Mm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 6:07 And infrared, as you may know, we, we normally associate it with heat. Well, how am I, how am I gonna d- detect something that's very, very cold in space if my detector is hotter than what I'm trying to detect?

Joe Rogan 6:19 Mm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 6:20 I, you can't... y- there's no way to see something that is warmer than the temperature of your detector, so your detector has to be very cold, extremely cold. So, these are the baffles and it... there are many, many layers so that when sunlight hits one layer, that layer absorbs it and re-radiates it in both directions, forward and back, so there's less that goes to the next layer. So then, the next layer re-radiates it and it... by the time it gets to the fourth layer, hardly anything goes towards the telescope.

Joe Rogan 6:50 Ah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 6:51 And so it is insulated and it drops to deep space cold temperatures. And it's literally where the sun don't shine right now.

Joe Rogan 7:01 So, the solar panels are getting this solar energy from the bottom-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 7:05 Yeah, because it... that's the direction the sun is, correct.

Joe Rogan 7:07 ... and it's ra- so it radiates off the bottom and those are the things that protect it and l- you see how all those layers-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 7:12 All the layers, yeah. Yeah, they-

Joe Rogan 7:13 ... fan out. Amazing.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 7:13 It... yeah. It... and it's specifically tuned for the infrared part of the spectrum. You remember the spectrum? So you have like visible light, right? Uh, we... ROYGBIV, right? If you wanna remember it. Red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet. Those are the parts of the spectrum we can see. But there's light outside of this. There is like beyond the violet, there's ultraviolet. That's where... how you get that, and below the red is infrared, not visible to the human eye. By the way, insects can see ultraviolet. We can't.

Joe Rogan 7:46 Oh.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 7:46 That's why bug zappers work. You put a UV light in a bug zapper, the, the, the bugs say, "Oh my gosh, I love ultraviolet!" And then they get zapped. And we're old enough to remember before there were bug zappers, you'd had a, a picnic bulb for, uh, for twilight picnics and it's like a yellow bulb, kind of yellow-amber bulb. It was a bug bulb. It was sold as bug bulbs. It's not that they repelled bugs. It's that the bugs couldn't even see it 'cause their whole vision is shifted towards the ultraviolet.

Joe Rogan 8:18 Oh.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 8:19 And it leaves out the deep red.

Joe Rogan 8:21 Oh.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 8:21 Yeah, so it's... that's evidence we're smarter than bugs. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 8:24 That's one piece, luckily.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 8:26 (laughs) That's one piece of evidence that we're smarter than bugs. So, just to, to bring that to a closure, uh, the earliest forming galaxies in the universe, um, radiated a lot of ultraviolet. So you might say, "Well, let's get an ultraviolet telescope." No, because 14 billion years later, the expansion of the universe has redshifted the ultraviolet into the infrared.

Joe Rogan 8:52 Oh.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 8:52 So if you wanna see the birth of galaxies, you gotta know what they look like in the here and the now. And in the here and the now, it's in the infrared. So this is a telescope-

Joe Rogan 9:03 Wow.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 9:03 ... specifically tuned to see galaxies born at the edge of the universe, and infrared also allows you to see deep into gas clouds.

Joe Rogan 9:13 Now, when they're showing you an image like this...

Neil deGrasse Tyson 9:15 So right here, this is the Pillars of Creation, which were so named at the time Hubble first attempted this. We were gaga over the Hubble image of this, and now, like the, the JWST, oh my gosh. For those who are more prone to religion, some have called this The Hand of God because if you look at the pillars, um, you can kinda picture like a, you know, (fingers snapping) a thumb and, uh-

Joe Rogan 9:39 Fingers?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 9:39 ... fingers, yeah. So... but, but regardless, this is nearby. This is the telescope peering deep into gas clouds that otherwise would enshroud what's going on, and you get to see stars being born, planets being born. And so what's remarkable about JW... JWST is that to be tuned for the edge of the universe and the birth of galaxies is the same properties you would want to see the birth of stars. A star is born right in front of your nose that would otherwise be cloaked by gas.

Joe Rogan 10:19 Oh.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 10:19 And infrared penetrates those clouds and enables you to see it as though the cloud isn't even there. And you already know this because when... if you're driving through fog, okay, you put on your fog lights. The fog lights are not blue. They're like reddish amber, okay? That improves your ability to see through the fog. If we could see infrared, that's the kinda light you'd use, then you wouldn't even know the fog was there. That's why self-driving cars will be amazing. It won't matter if it's foggy.

Joe Rogan 10:50 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 10:50 They'll be able to see everything. Just give 'em infrared sensors. The fog is irrelevant. They could dr- drive 100 miles an hour in dense fog and all the cars will see each other, and they wanna change lanes, they tell other cars, "I'm gonna change lanes." They'll part for them, open up, and you... we wouldn't get 40,000 deaths a year as we currently do from automobile accidents.

Joe Rogan 11:11 Now, how much bigger is this telescope?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 11:14 So, um, it's abou- so you wanna think about collecting area, and I forgot the exact number. Uh, something like eight times, uh, around there, uh, more powerful in the sense of it can see things, uh, eight times dimmer. Uh, yeah, that... there you go.

Joe Rogan 11:29 Oh, there you go. Wow.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 11:29 So that's, uh, two... it's about two and a half squared. It's about eight times the area and-

Joe Rogan 11:34 And the technology obviously is improved as well, so like the ability that-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 11:39 Well, our, our detectors are better. And, uh, let me remind you that when the Hubble was designed, it was designed in like the 1980s and it was scheduled to go up. Uh, and then we had the Challenger accident.

Joe Rogan 11:50 Oh.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 11:51 And that delayed the shuttle program, so there's Hubble sitting there in mothballs with a... with an old Microsoft chip, and by the time it launched, it was already not as fast as it could've been. And so the very first servicing mission swapped all that out and put in, uh, better...... uh, uh, uh, methods and tools for measuring what it is we always needed it to do. So, this is... so one sad part about this is that it's not serviceable. We have no access to that point in space a million miles from the moon. We haven't left low Earth orbit since 1972. We're not going out a million miles from Earth to fix a telescope.

Joe Rogan 12:29 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 12:30 So that's unfortunate. Maybe a robotic fix? I don't know. Or to refill some of the, the fuel. It needs fuel to station keep.

Joe Rogan 12:39 Didn't it get hit by a micrometeor?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 12:41 Yeah. Well, that's, that's, that's the breaks. (laughs) When you're in space- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:45 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 12:45 ... yeah. But, um, it's not... it doesn't affect the overall performance.

Joe Rogan 12:49 That's amazing.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 12:50 Yeah, yeah. Well, it's huge and, and micrometeors will do small damage, but-

Joe Rogan 12:54 What-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 12:54 You don't, you don't want it in the middle of a meteor storm. That would be-

Joe Rogan 12:57 Right.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 12:57 ... uh, totally bad. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:59 And d- do they, I mean, they obviously know like where some of the, uh, asteroid belts are and where some of the like-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 13:06 Yeah, so the-

Joe Rogan 13:06 ... nearby Earth objects are?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 13:08 Yeah, so f- in, in this context, we have... so first, most asteroids are in the asteroid belt, so that's between Mars and Jupiter. So, I, I have an asteroid named after me on Earth.

Joe Rogan 13:19 Congratulations.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 13:20 I, I don't mean to brag or anything, but, um-

Joe Rogan 13:22 Can't you like get a star named after you online?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 13:24 Not leg-... not, not-

Joe Rogan 13:25 Not legally?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 13:25 ... not authentically. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:26 You just get robbed? (laughs)

Neil deGrasse Tyson 13:27 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:28 They just pretend-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 13:29 They'll send you a map-

Joe Rogan 13:29 ... that it's yours?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 13:30 ... with your, with your, with your name drawn in the map and-

Joe Rogan 13:32 So you pay for a piece of paper.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 13:33 Yeah, they claim that it goes, gets registered with the astrophysicist, but it doesn't. Um-

Joe Rogan 13:38 Oh.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 13:38 No. W- there's only one way we name stars and that's by committee and by traditions and this sort of thing. Uh, it's... they're fascinating traditions. So planets are named after Roman gods and p- planet moons, uh, are named after Greek characters in the life of the Greek god who's the counterpart to that Roman god.

Joe Rogan 14:01 Wow.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 14:01 So Jupiter, for example, one of its moons is Ganymede. Ganymede was the manservant of Zeus, and Zeus and Jupiter were corresponding, uh, gods in-

Joe Rogan 14:12 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 14:12 ... Greek and Roman. And not only that, two-thi- what's the number? Is it a- about half? Somewhere around there, of all the stars in the night sky that have names have Arabic names. So in my field, we have deep respect for people who made great inroads into understanding the natural universe, and the golden age of Islam from a thousand years ago made material contributions in this regard. And of course, Greek and Roman legends and this sort of thing. So there they are and its influence on Western culture. So yeah, no, the universe is a fun place.

Joe Rogan 14:45 Pretty fun place.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 14:46 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:47 So this James Webb Telescope, in terms of its ability to recognize things, like what magnitude of improvement are we talking about from the-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 14:56 Yeah, factor of 10.

Joe Rogan 14:57 ... the Hubble?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 14:57 Yeah. Fa- factor of 10.

Joe Rogan 14:58 Factor of 10.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 14:58 Yeah, easily. That's right. Well, the... a factor of 10 for the things Hubble could see, but it's incalculable when it sees things that Hubble could have never seen-

Joe Rogan 15:08 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 15:08 ... 'cause Hubble was not tuned for the infrared. So then you can't even compare it.

Joe Rogan 15:12 Ah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 15:12 It's a complete other window opened up to the universe for you.

Joe Rogan 15:16 So what has changed in terms of our understanding? The, the, the, Webb has been in the, in the million-mile orbit or however far a- away it is for how long now?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 15:29 Uh, well, it got there and then we did some engineering, so I, I guess a year, year and a half. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:34 And, and what has changed in our understanding?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 15:37 So that's, that's been people's first question, and what I wanna do is temper that to say something a little different. So yes, we expect James Webb to make great discoveries. We expect that. But the first order of business is hardly ever, "Let's discover something new today." It's, "Here's something that we have limited understanding of. Let's improve on that." And in so doing, we deepen our understanding of how things work in the universe. That's doesn't always involve overturning a previous idea or discovering something that nobody ordered. All right? That will happen. We fully expect that to happen, but we targeted parts of the sky initially because we know other telescopes have gone there before, and we're gonna say, "How can we further advance and deepen our understanding?" One thing it's gonna be able to do and it has already done, we have... do you know how many exoplanets there are? And I don't know how many of your audience was born after 1995. How many 27-year-olds and younger?

Joe Rogan 16:42 Probably quite a few.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 16:43 Quite a few. Okay. So I will take this opportunity to knight them Generation Exoplanet. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:52 Ah. I see what you did there.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 16:53 1995, uh, was the first exoplanet discovered, a planet orbiting another star. And, uh, I'll never forget that because it was my first time on national television. Uh, I was freshly minted as director of the Hayden Planetarium in New York City, and NBC sent a... uh, New York City, it's, it's the media news headquarters, right? Of all the networks. So NBC sent an action cam. They interviewed me 'cause of my title, not 'cause they knew or gave a crap who I was. Uh, my title was Director of the Planetarium. And so I gave my best professorial reply. I said, "Well, the Doppler shift, this is how it's discovered and what we do and how we measure it." And, and I was describing the fact that when you discover these planets, you don't actually see the planet. You see the effect of the planet's gravity on the host star. And so if you watch the host star, the host star like jiggles, okay, just a little bit in response to the planet going back and forth around it. So you're measuring the star. So I, I motioned that like with my hips, and that evening on the evening news-That's all they showed, was me jiggling my hips. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:04 (laughs)

Neil deGrasse Tyson 18:04 And I said, "Oh, my gosh. Okay, that's how you're gonna do this."

Joe Rogan 18:09 (laughs)

Neil deGrasse Tyson 18:09 "Okay. You don't want me to be Professor Neil, you want me to be Soundbite Neil."

Joe Rogan 18:13 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 18:14 All right, so from then on, I practiced my soundbites.

Joe Rogan 18:17 Mm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 18:17 And a soundbite's like, three sentences.

Joe Rogan 18:20 Oh, so you recognized this is the format now.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 18:22 Correct.

Joe Rogan 18:23 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 18:24 And I said, "I, I can't just give them my stump speech as a professor of astrophysics. I, it has to work in their medium." And I, and so I s- went home and stood in front of the mirror and had people just shout out things to me, anything in the universe, any idea, object, person, place, or thing, and I would come up with like three sentences that are-

Joe Rogan 18:44 Wow.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 18:44 ... interesting, make you smile, and be tasty enough to wanna tell someone else, the anatomy of a soundbite. So try it.

Joe Rogan 18:51 Mm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 18:51 Say anything in the whole universe.

Joe Rogan 18:52 How do we know how-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 18:54 No, no, j- just one word.

Joe Rogan 18:55 Okay.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 18:55 Just say anything.

Joe Rogan 18:56 The Big Bang.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 18:57 Big Bang. Ooh. The birth of spacetime energy, and everything we know and love about this universe. Occurred 14 billion years ago, and we have no idea what happened before it. And we're still expanding, as we will forever.

Joe Rogan 19:18 I read an article-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 19:20 That's my soundbite for the Big Bang.

Joe Rogan 19:20 That's good, it's a good soundbite.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 19:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:22 I read an article about the Webb Telescope, and th- th- what they were taking into consideration is the possibility that the Big Bang may be incorrect, and that m- the universe might be larger and older than we think.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 19:37 So, uh, I hesitate to ask what pages on the internet you hang out on. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:43 It was a d- like a legit-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 19:45 Okay.

Joe Rogan 19:45 It wasn't saying the universe is older.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 19:48 Yes.

Joe Rogan 19:48 It's saying as more data and new information comes in, there is a distinct possibility that the Big Bang might just be the r- it just might explain the reach of the technology and not the actual scale of the universe itself.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 20:02 Okay, so the way to think about this is, and this is the way science has worked since basically the year 1600 where Galileo sort of starts codifying what people knew probably should be happening but no one really did it in large scale, if you have an idea about something, then you test it multiple ways and get other people to test it. And if the tests give you consistent results, you have a new understanding of the universe. When that happens, that knowledge of the universe doesn't go away. It doesn't get undone. What happens typically is you have a deeper understanding of the universe in which that understanding gets embedded.

Joe Rogan 20:46 Mm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 20:47 And you realize that you only understood a small part of a larger whole. But the small parts you did understand, where you had multiple experiments that confirmed it, that doesn't change. So the, the cleanest example of this, and I'll get back to your question, is Newton's Laws of Motion and Gravity. He, uh, you know, did anyone see anything move faster than a galloping horse in his day? Probably not. And so, the News Laws of Motion and Gravity worked. They worked not only for galloping horses, it worked for the moon in orbit around the Earth, and the Earth in orbit around the sun, and Jupiter's moons in orbit around Jupiter, all right, and for the planets. So, okay, but wait a minute, it doesn't work for Mercury. Mercury's orbit is not following Newton's Laws. Is it something wrong with the data? Let's check it. Data's correct. Oh my gosh, what's happening? Einstein comes along and says, "I have a new understanding of gravity and a new understanding of motion, and it accounts for this weirdness in Mercury's orbit."

Joe Rogan 21:54 What was the weirdness?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 21:56 It just, w- it, it, its shape was not exactly what Newton's Laws of Gravity would give you. Its shape could only be accounted for when you throw in Einstein's Theory of General Relativity. Why? Because the sun's gravity is so monstrous and Mercury's orbiting close enough to it that it's being influenced by extra phenomenon going on in the universe that's the product of very high and significant gravity. And so, so then do we throw Newton out the window? No, actually. You know what Newton's Laws are? They're what E- they're what Einstein's Laws look like when you put in low speeds and low gravity.

Joe Rogan 22:38 Mm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 22:38 If you put in low speeds and l- they become Newton's Laws in that limit. Newton's Laws don't stop working where they used to work. We w- the Apollo to the moon used only Newton's Laws.

Joe Rogan 22:51 Mm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 22:52 Because Einstein didn't matter at those scales. The moon, and Earth, and, and rockets, we're not going fast enough for any of that to matter. But when you start going fast enough, you cannot use Newton's Laws. You have to use a deeper understanding. Now, where does Einstein take us? You go into the center of a black hole, you get black holes from Einstein, center of a black hole, there's a singularity. All the theories say the matter occupies zero volume, thereby having infinite density, and that's kinda weird. "What? No, you can't have infinite... No." That's a limit of Einstein's theory. That's where it breaks down. It's something of joke, that's where God divides by zero.

Joe Rogan 23:35 (laughs)

Neil deGrasse Tyson 23:35 Remember in math class? You can't divide by zero.

Joe Rogan 23:37 Right.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 23:37 It's, it's not, not defined or not allowed. So in Einstein's equations, we're dividing by zero at the singularity. So we all know that as brilliant as Einstein was and as successful as his general theory of relativity has been, it has limits. And one limit is the center of a black hole, and another limit is the very birth of the universe itself. But getting back to your question, the Big Bang.So, we have top people working on

Neil deGrasse Tyson 24:08 trying to resolve the singularity problem. And in so doing, you get to some ideas that, well, maybe our big bang... 'Cause the big bang's not gonna go away. All the data support this. So, now I've got this big bang thing, okay? And, well, is this embedded in something bigger?

Joe Rogan 24:25 Mm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 24:26 Ooh.

Joe Rogan 24:27 Ooh.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 24:29 So, when you put, like, quantum physics and general relativity and you try to come up with some bigger understanding, deeper understanding... String theorists have been all into this... You get a multiverse. We didn't pull that out of our ass. That came outta the equations. So, how old is the multiverse? I don't know. It's definitely older than our universe 'cause it birthed our universe, and it birthed other universes, and it birthed... E- the way the equations drive it, an infinity of universes. This is the idea that maybe there's a version of us in another-

Joe Rogan 25:04 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 25:04 ... where I'm bald and you got the afro, and who is... But everything else is the same.

Joe Rogan 25:09 And also a version where everything's the same.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 25:11 Where everything would be the same, yes.

Joe Rogan 25:13 Everything you've ever said has been said before exactly in the same order.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 25:16 Correct. There's no reason to presume that everything in this universe isn't... or hasn't already played out e- in the exact way in another one of these infinite universes.

Joe Rogan 25:28 And in an infinite number of different ways.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 25:31 Correct. And so, that's, that is what comes outta the equations. So, that makes the big bang a kind of a small part of a much larger whole.

Joe Rogan 25:39 Mm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 25:39 And so, yeah, we're ready for that. But the fact that the universe had a beginning 14 billion years ago, and there's the cosmic microwave background, all of these features are intact. They're not gonna, all of a sudden, not apply. That's my point. That's my long answer to your-

Joe Rogan 25:56 So, this thing-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 25:57 ... very clean question.

Joe Rogan 25:57 ... that happened 14 billion years ago, what is the predominant theory of why?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 26:05 So, this multiverse concept gives us a reason why. Okay? So, um, it's like, imagine you're rolling around in a, in a basin, okay? And you're stable there, you're just fine, but then something kicks you out of the basin, and you didn't know that there's a huge hill to roll down after you come out of that basin. But you didn't know that. You thought y- everything was just fine.

Joe Rogan 26:35 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 26:35 You roll down that hill, you're gaining energy. At the bottom of the hill, something stops you, and then where does all that energy go? One of the hypotheses, and I'm highly simplifying here, is that the energy gained by rolling down a hill, and these are energy hills that would exist in this sort of higher dimensional space that we're talking about, that e- that energy has to manifest in that object somehow, and it becomes an explosion, and gives birth... With enough energy, it gives birth to matter, uh, everything that we know and love, and it expands, because when you concentrate that much energy in a small spot, that's the only thing you can do-

Joe Rogan 27:16 I understand that you're-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 27:17 ... is expand.

Joe Rogan 27:17 ... simplifying it, but I don't understand-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 27:19 Simplified in the sense that, um, I'm... by using this basin analogy-

Joe Rogan 27:23 Right.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 27:23 ... and rolling down a hill, that there, there are equations of the energetics of a system, and this is called e- this is called a, um, uh, well, a w- a false vacuum. So, you can be in a place that's not the true bottom energy state of the system, but you think everything is fine, and... but it's not. And so, if you move around in among these hills and valleys, you end up birthing universes out the other side, and this multiverse concept actually delivers this for you-

Joe Rogan 27:58 So-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 27:58 ... basically for free.

Joe Rogan 27:59 ... that, that thought would be that the big bang is just one of many events that happen in the multiverse.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 28:08 Correct. And not only that, it could be that other big bang events, um, might have a different, slightly different laws of physics in it.

Joe Rogan 28:20 Mm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 28:21 So, you'd wanna watch out for that if you cross over from one universe to the other, and the charge on the electron is slightly different. You could, like... All your atoms could just-

Joe Rogan 28:32 Scatter.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 28:32 ... scatter or d-

Joe Rogan 28:34 Compress.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 28:34 ... compress into a pile of goo. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:36 Oh.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 28:36 So, take a... take something to test first.

Joe Rogan 28:39 Yeah. Send a chicken out there.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 28:40 (laughs) Don't touch it. (laughs) Chicken.

Joe Rogan 28:43 (laughs)

Neil deGrasse Tyson 28:43 Chickens get no respect. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:45 (laughs)

Neil deGrasse Tyson 28:45 Whatever happened to guinea pigs? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:47 Well, guinea pigs are cute-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 28:48 'Cause they're cute pets.

Joe Rogan 28:49 ... and have fur.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 28:49 They're cute and furry.

Joe Rogan 28:50 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 28:51 Oh my gosh.

Joe Rogan 28:52 Chickens are way easier to just send into space.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 28:53 I spent, I spent a whole section in this, in this book talking about, uh, people who love animals, um, and wanna care for them and don't wanna eat them, um, but they only love ones that are cuddly, that you-

Joe Rogan 29:04 Oh, yeah, for sure.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 29:05 ... you'd make a, a plush toy out of it.

Joe Rogan 29:06 My agent said that. She knows I hunt. She's like, "You should hunt pigs 'cause they're ugly."

Neil deGrasse Tyson 29:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:12 I'm like, "How dare you?"

Neil deGrasse Tyson 29:14 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:14 "First of all, domesticated pigs are adorable."

Neil deGrasse Tyson 29:18 (laughs) They are, in fact.

Joe Rogan 29:18 Yeah. Domesticated dogs are ugly, too, 'cause they're desperate.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 29:22 In fact, I have a, uh, a, I, I have a voice cameo of a pig in a Disney XD cartoon called Gravity Falls.

Joe Rogan 29:32 (laughs)

Neil deGrasse Tyson 29:32 It's, it's a farmhouse and there's a pig that lives with everybody, and the pig eats some slop that the kids are told makes you smarter, and so... They bought it at a fair or something. So, they went to sleep putting the slop on their forehead, thinking it would get into their head and make them smart, but the pig sees it on their forehead and licks it off of their forehead, and then overnight, the pig becomes a supreme genius, builds an atom smasher, builds a voice translator, and while the pig is smart, I'm its voice. (laughs) It's-

Joe Rogan 30:01 (laughs) Oh. That's hilarious.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 30:03 It's, it's cute. It's a cute, um-Uh, and so... But what was I talking about before-

Joe Rogan 30:09 Big Bang, multiverses-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 30:11 Mm-mm.

Joe Rogan 30:11 ... different laws of physics.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 30:12 Yeah, diff- slightly different laws of physics are a fascinating prospect.

Joe Rogan 30:15 Mm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 30:15 How that they might vary and how you might wanna avoid it. Oh, but I was talking about if you wanna save animals, um, I, I never seen, I've never seen anyone say, "Save the leeches." Uh-

Joe Rogan 30:27 No, no one cares about bugs.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 30:29 ... or, or s- save the ticks. In particular, parasites. Save the mosquitoes. Mosquitoes, you know, the biggest enemy of humans, as big an enemy as we are to each other through warfare and the history of civilization. The greatest enemy to human life has been the mosquito. Responsible for more than a billion human deaths in the history of civilization. And so, here we have mosquitoes, ticks, uh, tapeworms, uh, you know, go down the list and you can ask if you're really into animals and don't wanna kill them, if you heard that ticks were endangered, would you start a movement to protect ticks? Would, would you do that? And if you would, uh, more power to you, but I'm thinking you're not.

Joe Rogan 31:20 Why would you if you know about Lyme disease?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 31:23 This is my point.

Joe Rogan 31:24 Yeah. Or-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 31:25 This, this is my point. I mean, by the way, the Lyme virus wants to live too, right?

Joe Rogan 31:29 Right.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 31:29 The- these, these are all creatures on God's green Earth, right?

Joe Rogan 31:32 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 31:33 And so, so you end up being a species bigot.

Joe Rogan 31:36 Mm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 31:37 That, that's, uh, in the chapter Meatarians and Vegetarians, uh, there's the, the philosophies that are, that each of those camps will embrace. And the question is, how thoroughly thought through are those philosophies? Like, i- in one example, let's say you don't wanna kill animals and, but you... Uh, so you, you have a humane mouse trap in your basement, okay? Why not? You don't wanna snap the neck of the mouse. That's, that's cruel. You, and you, and you like animals, right? So you save the mouse. You gotta check on it every few days 'cause they dry out quickly if you trap it. So, and so what do you do when you catch it? What, what do they do?

Joe Rogan 32:19 Release them.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 32:19 Release it back into the wild, guaranteeing the mouse gets eaten whole by an owl or pecked apart by all manner of woodland predators between nine and 18 months of its life. So the safest thing to do with your mouse is to leave it in your basement. (laughs) If that's, i- if you really care about animal life and the mouse managed to get into your basement, leave it there. It'll live up to six years-

Joe Rogan 32:48 I-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 32:48 ... in your basement.

Joe Rogan 32:48 I lived in Colorado for a while next to an ashram, and I was visiting the ashram and talking to the woman who runs it, and she sprayed Raid all over these ants. And I go, "What are you doing?" And she's like, "Well, it's unfortunate, but, you know, we, we have to address the fact that we have an infestation of insects." I'm like, "You just mass killed-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 33:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:11 ... all these living beings-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 33:13 Right. And by-

Joe Rogan 33:14 ... with poison from the sky."

Neil deGrasse Tyson 33:17 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:17 "And you did it in front of me."

Neil deGrasse Tyson 33:18 Aerial assaults.

Joe Rogan 33:20 "While you're espousing the benefits of Buddhism and-"

Neil deGrasse Tyson 33:24 Oh.

Joe Rogan 33:24 "... meditation and..."

Neil deGrasse Tyson 33:26 Yeah. So people kinda cherry-pick.

Joe Rogan 33:29 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 33:30 And, and I understand it, but... And I don't-

Joe Rogan 33:33 It's odd.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 33:34 I don't mind if someone cherry-picks as long as they're completely self-aware of it.

Joe Rogan 33:38 Most people aren't.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 33:39 And by the way, the home that, where you're saving the mouse, uh, I did a, a rough calculation. It's, it's probably made from the wood of about 50 trees.

Joe Rogan 33:49 Mm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 33:50 Each tree could have lived 100 years, but didn't 'cause it was cut down to make your home. The, the two-by-f- you know, the studs, the, the two-by-fours, the, the floorboards, the, the wall panels, the, you know, the, the siding. And each of those trees was home to birds and insects and fungus and squirrels and... Uh, and every day of that tree's life, via photosynthesis, it created 15 times the mass of the mouse in breathable oxygen. So I ask you, who do you think nature cares more about?

Joe Rogan 34:31 Hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 34:31 The tree or your one-ounce mouse?

Joe Rogan 34:35 Probably the tree.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 34:36 I'm thinking. And some trees live a thousand years.

Joe Rogan 34:40 Well, have you paid attention to some of the new research that's being done about how trees communicate with each other?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 34:44 I'll get to that, yeah, I'll get to that. That's in-

Joe Rogan 34:46 Mm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 34:46 That's in that chapter, the-

Joe Rogan 34:47 Mm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 34:47 ... Meatarians and Vegetarians chapter. So, so trees are fascinating.

Joe Rogan 34:51 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 34:51 I've heard people say, "Well, the mouse has a beating heart and the tree does not, or plants do not and animals do." And I said to my... Well, let me think this through. If you cloak a tree, does it not suffocate? If you cut a tree, does it not bleed? If you cut off its nutrients at the base, does it not wither and die?

Joe Rogan 35:18 Well, when they're aware they're being eaten, they release plant defense chemicals.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 35:21 I'm getting there. I'm getting there. All I'm saying is, the tree gets nutrients from the soil to the topmost leaf. It does it not for want of a beating heart. It does it in spite of not having one.

Joe Rogan 35:38 Right.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 35:39 It has a circulation.

Joe Rogan 35:40 It just has a different-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 35:41 It's where I get my-

Joe Rogan 35:42 ... way of life.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 35:43 It, it's, it's where I get my maple syrup from, tree blood. So let us... So to fault a tree or plant life for not having a beating heart when it's not that they need one and don't have one, it's that they don't need one and never wanted one. Now you're talking about the, uh, you're talking about the mycelium.

Joe Rogan 36:03 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 36:03 So this is a interconnected network-It's a fungal, fungal network, uh, underfoot in a forest where it connects multiple kingdoms of life. Uh, there are four kingdoms. You might have learned that there were two, we've upped it since then. Those two kingdoms are still intact, but like I said, there... now there's more. It's embedded in a larger tree. There was the plant kingdom, animal kingdom, fungal kingdom, and then we have a kingdom that includes all of the bacteria and archaea and other, other microscopic life forms. And so here's an interesting fact. I, I lost sleep for a week over this. Ready? If you look at the common ancestor between fungus and animals, 'cause the tree of life has... ultimately has one taproot, okay? And as it splits, it speciates and you get all these thing... ev- the diversity of life on Earth is, is enabled by the fact that life can speciate. Okay. You look at the common ancestor between animals and fungus. The common ancestor between humans and mushrooms split later than the common ancest- than its common ancestor's split with green plants. What that means is, we and mushrooms are more alike than either we or mushrooms are to green plants.

Joe Rogan 37:34 Hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 37:35 And th-

Joe Rogan 37:35 Well, mushrooms breathe oxygen.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 37:38 All I'm saying is, you c- you grill a portobello mushroom, what's the first word people use to describe it?

Joe Rogan 37:44 Vegetarian.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 37:45 (laughs) No. No, you... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:50 (laughs)

Neil deGrasse Tyson 37:50 No, y- they talk about mushrooms tasting meaty.

Joe Rogan 37:52 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 37:53 Yeah, meaty. A meaty mushroom.

Joe Rogan 37:54 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 37:55 No one has... last I checked, no one has ever accused kale of tasting meaty.

Joe Rogan 38:00 No.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 38:00 So in a way, we're kind of biting into ourselves. Uh, (laughs) plus, mushrooms, you know, shrooms, you know? Th- people have whole relationships with mushrooms.

Joe Rogan 38:13 Oh, yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 38:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:15 Oh, yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 38:15 So... and mushrooms are fungus. Fungus thrives on our body. Yeast-

Joe Rogan 38:18 Have you ever done psychedelic mushrooms?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 38:20 I've never done anything psychedelic. Can, can, can I tell you why?

Joe Rogan 38:24 Why? Yeah, please do.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 38:25 So I don't know if it's a good reason. I, I don't know if it's the, the best reason that can exist, but for me, it's a really good reason. The human mind barely works as it is. Barely. You ever see a book of, of, of optical illusions?

Joe Rogan 38:46 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 38:47 Wh- no one doesn't love a good book of optical illusions. And you turn the page... "Oh, what is that? Oh, is it in the page? Out of the page? Is the line longer? Is it shorter?" And you're scratching your head. These are simple line drawings that confound the human mind's ability to interpret. Our brain barely works as an accurate decoder of the natural world around you. You now wanna stir in chemicals? I recognize it'll take you on a ride, but I have always valued objective reality. I don't want anything interfering with my understanding of what is actually happening in front of me. And there are people who would claim that under the influence, they're accessing some actual other reality. All I can say is, if in that other reality you can, you know, invent the James Webb Space Telescope, tell me about it. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:52 Well-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 39:52 If, if you can f- figure out how to fly w- you know, and, and if you can do that, tell us about it. And there are people who say, "Oh, I visited Venus, uh, when I was at... on a head trip." "Did you bring back evidence?" Evidence matters, okay? "Did you bring back..." No, but it was in their head.

Joe Rogan 40:08 Well, the material world, what we're talking about is actual physical objects, right? It's the... like, if you could bring back something-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 40:15 The physical world. The physical universe. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:16 The physical... wh- what they're experiencing-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 40:19 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:20 ... is something akin to, well, you could call it a hallucination, you could call it, uh, a, a, a portal where physical reality doesn't exist and you only exist as consciousness.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 40:33 Here's my skepticism. Uh, I don't mind people saying that they visited another planet.

Joe Rogan 40:37 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 40:38 Or whatev- wherever they're visiting-

Joe Rogan 40:39 Right.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 40:39 ... or some a- astral plane.

Joe Rogan 40:41 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 40:41 Okay? I, I don't... o- okay. Uh, I'm, you know, write a travel log and share it with people, as some have done. I guess I would ask whether what you experienced is part of an objective reality that we can all recognize, because if it's not, then it's completely in your head. And if it's completely in your head-

Joe Rogan 41:05 But w- wait a minute.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 41:06 ... it's less useful.

Joe Rogan 41:07 What do you mean by that, part of an objective reality?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 41:09 An objective reality. So here's an example. Um, uh, th- the... when people have these near-death experiences, okay?

Joe Rogan 41:17 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 41:17 Or one where they're dying on a table and they... th- uh, commonly described, they leave their body and they look back on themselves, okay?

Joe Rogan 41:25 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 41:25 That's a thing going... that's something, okay?

Joe Rogan 41:28 Right.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 41:28 Let's investigate this, okay? So, the test for whether you really left your body or whether you were hallucinating it is get some writing that faces the ceiling up above your body, okay? And th- they've done this experiment. And if you're floating above your body, above that piece of paper, when you come back to life, you should be able to say what's written on that piece of paper. And that has yet to happen.

Joe Rogan 41:57 If you get above it.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 41:58 Yeah, if you get above it, correct. That has yet to happen. That'd be really good-

Joe Rogan 42:01 So where would that piece of paper be suspended?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 42:03 No, no. You have to... no, put it up on a shelf or something. Yeah, you'd be able to s- put it in a way that it would be clearly-

Joe Rogan 42:08 But then the person would have to die knowing that piece of paper was there and then be brought back?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 42:14 Um, possibly. If the... if-Yeah, I mean, the, the-

Joe Rogan 42:18 So you'd have to tell them, "Hey, I, I know you're gonna die."

Neil deGrasse Tyson 42:21 You're gonna die.

Joe Rogan 42:21 We're gonna s-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 42:22 If you come back-

Joe Rogan 42:23 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 42:23 ... I have a piece of paper up here.

Joe Rogan 42:24 That seems like-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 42:24 Go read from it.

Joe Rogan 42:25 ... a pretty ridiculous experiment to try to achieve.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 42:28 No, if you can't... Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, pause.

Joe Rogan 42:30 Pause?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 42:31 Uh, uh, from d- ridiculous experiment?

Joe Rogan 42:33 So like, "Hey, I know this guy's about to die, but instead of concentrating on-"

Neil deGrasse Tyson 42:36 Th-

Joe Rogan 42:36 "... bringing him back to life, let's write down on a piece of paper-"

Neil deGrasse Tyson 42:39 No, you do both. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:40 "... and leave it on a sh-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 42:40 You know, instead of...

Joe Rogan 42:40 But who the fuck is gonna do that?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 42:41 (laughs) No, you know what they did?

Joe Rogan 42:43 What?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 42:43 In, in 1895, after Wilhelm Röntgen discovers X-rays and they find out it penetrates your body and you can see bones inside your body, you know what they did?

Joe Rogan 42:54 What?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 42:54 They set up X-ray machines at the bedside of dying people to see if they can see a soul leave the body.

Joe Rogan 43:01 Hmm. And everybody just got cancer from the radiation.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 43:06 (laughs) They died from cancer?

Joe Rogan 43:07 (laughs)

Neil deGrasse Tyson 43:07 No, they were... (laughs) I thought that was an admirable attempt.

Joe Rogan 43:11 Yes, interesting.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 43:12 To, to, to make a measurement.

Joe Rogan 43:13 Yeah, that's interesting, but-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 43:14 Uh, yes.

Joe Rogan 43:15 But how would you-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 43:15 But, and they, and they never saw-

Joe Rogan 43:16 ... possibly know that someone is going to die and/or have a near-death experiment-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 43:21 What, you would do every d-

Joe Rogan 43:21 ... and then, a near-death experience rather, and then put a, a piece of paper-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 43:25 If you wanted to-

Joe Rogan 43:25 ... on a shelf.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 43:26 You want, what you wanna do, you'd have to be really organized about that.

Joe Rogan 43:28 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 43:29 And, and s- if you wanna do this en masse-

Joe Rogan 43:31 You'd have to just, like, have shelves in every bedroom-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 43:33 Have shelves in every, in every room with sh-

Joe Rogan 43:35 ... of every ER.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 43:35 Every ER, correct. Or, or, yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:37 How often does that happen, where people have, uh, above their body experiences where they leave their body?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 43:42 It's very frequently reported.

Joe Rogan 43:43 Very frequently?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 43:43 Oh, yeah. I'm just saying-

Joe Rogan 43:46 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 43:47 ... that the, the brain is capable of so much extraordinary thought within itself.

Joe Rogan 43:51 Of course.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 43:52 That, uh, what I care about for the world is what is objectively true. And what's objectively true can be verified by multiple people. And if it's only true within your head, it's not useful, is all I'm saying.

Joe Rogan 44:09 How could it not be useful?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 44:10 To other people.

Joe Rogan 44:11 It's useful to you.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 44:12 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:12 And if useful to you-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 44:13 Uh, no, not useful to other people.

Joe Rogan 44:13 But hold on.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 44:14 Other people.

Joe Rogan 44:14 If it's useful to you and then that usefulness to you actually manifests itself in something that gets created because of this experience, like Kary Mullis created the PCR method because he had an acid trip, and during the acid trip came up with this idea.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 44:32 So, uh, I... What we'd have to ask is, how frequent is that? So you get everybody who takes trips of any kind, be it mushrooms or acid or...

Joe Rogan 44:42 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 44:43 ... uh, and look at the body of their new thoughts that have come from them for them having... Wh- when they credit it.

Joe Rogan 44:52 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 44:53 Okay? And Carl Sagan was a big pothead.

Joe Rogan 44:56 Yes.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 44:56 Okay? And highly productive scientist. So, um, so the question is, does it give you some insight with which, when you are not under the influence, gets you closer to an objective reality? That's an interesting question.

Joe Rogan 45:08 Carl Sagan actually believed that there was, uh... The way he described it, what was his description, the way he described it? But he said he believed that there are thoughts that were only available the way you're, when you were under the influence of marijuana.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 45:21 That is certainly the case for any drug.

Joe Rogan 45:23 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 45:23 Right? It's a, a-

Joe Rogan 45:24 But he felt like those thoughts were beneficial.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 45:25 Well, I can ask, are those thoughts more connected to reality than if you were not so influenced?

Joe Rogan 45:31 But if you-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 45:31 So here's, I did an experiment with myself.

Joe Rogan 45:33 Okay.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 45:34 Okay? When I first started writing, uh, in graduate school, I had a m- monthly column. Uh, I, I, uh, you know, there's that stereotype of Hemingway with a drink, you know, and you j- they're writing and that's their creative moment.

Joe Rogan 45:47 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 45:47 I said... I, I don't really like hard liquor, but I like wine, so I said, "Let me get a bottle of wine and drink wine while I write." And I said, "Yeah, this is good, this is good." And I'm doing it, and then I did it without wine. This is an experiment I conducted on myself, and it was not as fun composing (laughs) without the influence of just some, you know, a smooth, sort of low-level-

Joe Rogan 46:13 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 46:13 ... sort of wine buzz. Um, but I looked at the two, there was no contest. My completely sober writing was vastly better than what I was writing under the influence of s- several glasses of wine.

Joe Rogan 46:26 But what kind of-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 46:27 Even though I believed it was really good.

Joe Rogan 46:29 But hold on a second.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 46:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:30 What kind of writing are you talking about? If you're talking about fiction-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 46:33 No, no, prose.

Joe Rogan 46:34 Okay.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 46:34 Prose. But I'd like-

Joe Rogan 46:35 One of the greatest examples of fiction enhancing, b- being enhanced rather, by, under the influence of drugs and chemicals, is Stephen King. If you go and l- read Stephen King's early work versus the stuff after he got sober... And I'm a gigantic Stephen King fan. There's a-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 46:52 Was it just alcohol in his case, or were there other drugs?

Joe Rogan 46:54 Cocaine.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 46:54 Oh, other drugs too.

Joe Rogan 46:55 A lot of cocaine, a lot of alcohol.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 46:56 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 46:56 Cigarettes, a lot of cigarettes.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 46:58 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:58 It was way better. It's vastly superior, darker, deeper, stranger-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 47:03 In the day?

Joe Rogan 47:03 ... more bizarre, more shocking.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 47:05 In the day, you're saying?

Joe Rogan 47:06 In the day. Read it today.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 47:07 Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:08 Read Carrie today.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 47:08 No, no, no, no, I meant you're saying what he created in the day under that influence is way-

Joe Rogan 47:12 Yes.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 47:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:12 The stuff under the influence, the stuff he created under the influence-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 47:14 Carrie is deeply dark, oh my gosh.

Joe Rogan 47:16 It's so dark.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 47:17 Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:17 It's so dark.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 47:18 But so when was Shawshank?

Joe Rogan 47:18 So, Pet Sematary. All, they're, almost all of them-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 47:21 When was Shawshank Redemption? Was that-

Joe Rogan 47:22 I think all of them were when he was fucked up. He wrote some good stuff-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 47:26 (laughs) That's not fucking...

Joe Rogan 47:26 ... after he was fucked up, but like Cujo, he doesn't even remember writing it.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 47:30 Okay, so, so-

Joe Rogan 47:31 And it's fantastic.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 47:31 ... is this something you would recommend for creative people?

Joe Rogan 47:35 I recommended Stephen King. Get back on coke, sir.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 47:38 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:38 Stay off Twitter.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 47:39 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:39 Get back on coke.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 47:41 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:41 (laughs) I'm kidding, but, but, uh, uh...

Neil deGrasse Tyson 47:42 So wha- my one little experiment with glasses of wine, um-

Joe Rogan 47:45 Yeah, that's not enough. That experiment's not enough.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 47:47 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:47 Like I, I personally feel that under the influence of marijuana, I come up with some of my best ideas for comedy, for standup comedy writing.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 47:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:55 I like to, I do the George Carlin method.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 47:57 I hear you got a new show ready to drop.

Joe Rogan 47:58 Yes, sir.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 47:58 I'm looking forward to that.

Joe Rogan 47:59 I-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 47:59 I love your work, by the way.

Joe Rogan 48:00 Thank you very much. Thank you.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 48:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:01 I do the George Carlin method. I write sober and then I punch it up high.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 48:05 Okay.

Joe Rogan 48:06 And sometimes, I just write high.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 48:06 As opposed to the opposite. Yeah, interesting.

Joe Rogan 48:08 Well, George Carlin had a great point. He's like, "You should write about things that you're thinking about and things that are, like, important, or things that are on your mind." And then, he would, like, let it sit, and then he would smoke pot and go back to it.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 48:21 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 48:21 And then, he would come up all the funny.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 48:23 Interesting.

Joe Rogan 48:23 All the ridiculous aspects of it, and he would interject them into there.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 48:27 Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 48:27 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 48:28 Yeah. So, so, I'm just saying, to the extent... I, I'd be, I'd like to know how reliable that is.

Joe Rogan 48:35 Well, here's the other point, that, uh, I should say. There's many people that don't do any drugs that write fantastic stuff, and there's many comedians that are completely clean and sober that have done their best work once they got clean and sober. That's true too. Both those things are true.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 48:51 Right.

Joe Rogan 48:52 But they're, I think they're tools.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 48:53 And we've lost some comedians for, I mean, you know, uh, Mitch Hedberg, for example.

Joe Rogan 48:57 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 48:57 One of my favorites.

Joe Rogan 48:58 So, Mitch-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 48:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:59 ... was genius, but he-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 49:00 Yeah, I've really loved his stuff.

Joe Rogan 49:01 ... he was very, and he had a really bad drug.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 49:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:03 His i- injectable heroin-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 49:05 Oh my gosh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:05 ... was his thing, which is th- one of the worst. But, uh, the point is, it's like they're tools. And I used to have a joke about it, like, that marijuana is like any other tool. It's like a hammer. You could build a house with a hammer, or you could hit yourself in the dick if you're fucking crazy.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 49:19 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:20 And that's-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 49:21 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:21 ... that's the problem with all sorts of things. They need to be managed responsibly, and people need to understand what the effects are, what the dosage is, and that's where science comes in.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 49:29 Okay, here's what I'll do. Here's what I'll do. Um, I still have some writing projects that I'm gonna finish.

Joe Rogan 49:35 Can I take mushrooms?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 49:36 No, no. (laughs) When I'm done with what I know I wanted to write before I died-

Joe Rogan 49:41 Okay.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 49:42 ... then, I will consider this.

Joe Rogan 49:44 Then, come to daddy.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 49:45 I'll come to, I'll come to papa.

Joe Rogan 49:46 (laughs)

Neil deGrasse Tyson 49:46 I'll come to papa.

Joe Rogan 49:47 We'll hook you up.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 49:48 And then, I'll see if some new creative thing comes out of me at that time.

Joe Rogan 49:53 Hm. Well, I don't know if new creative things will come out of you, but I think thoughts-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 49:56 Well, I already got stuff com- I mean, I've got-

Joe Rogan 49:57 ... thoughts will come out that probably wouldn't exist without them. And when you're talking about, like, really breakthrough psychedelic moments, like DMT, or mushrooms, psilocybin, one of the really fascinating things is they mimic neurochemistry. Like, DMT is in the brain, and, and it's in all the organs, and it's, it's a part of natural human neurochemistry.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 50:23 Well, except, of course, so is fentanyl, so...

Joe Rogan 50:25 Fentanyl is a part of the-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 50:27 No, no.

Joe Rogan 50:27 ... human neurochemistry?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 50:27 You have receptors for it, so...

Joe Rogan 50:29 Right, but DMT is produced by the human body. It's actually a thing that the body makes.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 50:34 Right.

Joe Rogan 50:34 And we don't know why.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 50:35 Right.

Joe Rogan 50:35 And the, the really heavy-duty psychedelic people think that in large doses, when you take it and have these breakthrough experiences, what you're doing is you're, you're going through some sort of chemical portal, and this chemical portal is only available to people in these near-death experiences under extreme moments of stress, where they have, like, these moments where they go through the tunnel, and they... the bright light, and they meet God.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 51:00 I mean, how many of these would I have to see to be convinced that it's a reliable-

Joe Rogan 51:06 I think you would have to-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 51:06 ... consequence of it?

Joe Rogan 51:07 ... do it.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 51:07 Yeah. Uh, uh-

Joe Rogan 51:08 I think it's... What we're, we're, we're-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 51:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:09 This conversation is like talking to a person who's lived in an underground tunnel their whole life who's dismissing sunlight. They're like, "What's the big deal-"

Neil deGrasse Tyson 51:17 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:18 "... with sunlight? I'm fine down here with light bulbs-"

Neil deGrasse Tyson 51:21 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:22 "... and you and your sunlight. Oh, yeah, photosynthesis. Woo-hoo."

Neil deGrasse Tyson 51:27 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:27 "I've got hydroponics."

Neil deGrasse Tyson 51:29 So, so, so, you're being a, uh, a very effective drug pusher?

Joe Rogan 51:33 Hmm. But the drugs that I'm interested in are not dangerous. They're not ones that kill you. Like, I've never done cocaine. I've never done heroin. I've never done amphetamines. I'm not interested in those.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 51:43 Does cocaine kill you? I didn't know that.

Joe Rogan 51:45 It can.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 51:45 It can if you're rich enough. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:49 And it... (laughs)

Neil deGrasse Tyson 51:49 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:49 Well, it certainly can kill you today-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 51:51 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:51 ... because so much of it is laced with fentanyl-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 51:53 Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:53 ... which is one of the number one killers of young people, unfortunately-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 51:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:56 ... is fentanyl contamination of, of drugs. But I, I, I'm, I'm interested in pharmacology. I'm interested in what, what happens to the mind when it's under the influence of different substances.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 52:08 Yeah, I guess I'm less interested because I don't... I, I have to think more about what you said. But look at how people misinterpret reality when they're not on anything.

Joe Rogan 52:23 It's a good point, and it's, uh-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 52:24 And-

Joe Rogan 52:24 ... another good point is there's many people that's under the influence-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 52:26 The failure of eyewitness testimony-

Joe Rogan 52:28 ... of those drugs.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 52:28 ... just to say what actually happened.

Joe Rogan 52:30 Yes, sure.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 52:30 That's scary.

Joe Rogan 52:30 And that's under extreme duress. That's terrifying.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 52:32 People end up in jail-

Joe Rogan 52:33 Yes.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 52:33 ... because of that.

Joe Rogan 52:34 For the rest of their lives.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 52:34 Yes.

Joe Rogan 52:35 Yeah. Oh, well listen, I've had many, many conversations with people on this podcast about that-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 52:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:39 ... 'cause I worked with, uh, my friend Josh Dubin, who w- was originally an ambassador for The Innocence Project, and-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 52:46 The Innocence Project.

Joe Rogan 52:46 ... he's done a bunch of stuff on his own, where he's gotten many, many, many-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 52:50 The fact-

Joe Rogan 52:50 ... people out of jail-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 52:50 ... that The Innocence Project even has to exist-

Joe Rogan 52:53 Yes.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 52:53 ... in this world is itself a travesti- a travesty.

Joe Rogan 52:56 Well, I'm hoping that with science, there's gonna come a time where we can actually read the contents of peoples' minds, and they, that this will no longer be, "I remember this."

Neil deGrasse Tyson 53:08 It's an episode of Black Mirror-

Joe Rogan 53:09 Yes.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 53:10 ... on that.

Joe Rogan 53:10 Yes, yes.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 53:10 Okay?

Joe Rogan 53:11 Yes.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 53:11 But the, I think, maybe, yes, that would be interesting.

Joe Rogan 53:15 But isn't the problem is that false memories are a real thing?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 53:17 Yeah. So, there are people who believe something, and if you read their mind, you'll just see what it is that they-

Joe Rogan 53:23 Right.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 53:23 ... they believe.

Joe Rogan 53:24 But I wonder if you could sort of back engineer that belief. I wonder if it could get to the point where you could say, "Oh, you believe this because this is a memory of the way you've described-"

Neil deGrasse Tyson 53:35 No, we just do it-

Joe Rogan 53:36 "... the memory."

Neil deGrasse Tyson 53:36 ... Black Mirror style, and you have a, a chip-

Joe Rogan 53:39 Yeah, that's-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 53:40 ... that records everything that you see.

Joe Rogan 53:41 That's probably the future.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 53:42 There's, there's a chapter in here called, um, cri- um, uh, Law and Order, where I get into the role of science in deciding whether someone is-

Joe Rogan 53:53 Hm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 53:53 ... guilty or innocent. And it's the idea that, in a courtroom, someone says, "I need a witness!" This is like, in the court of science, that is the last thing you are ever asking for.

Joe Rogan 54:06 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 54:06 Because we know, and the psychologists knew this first. The rest of us, you know, figured it out after the fact, that eyewitness testimony is one of the least reliable forms... Uh, I, the third time I was rejected from jury duty. Uh, I show up-... dutifully, okay? And they... (laughs) The, the, the third time, they said there was a woman who was robbed on the street of her groceries and her, and her purse. And they had the person who she accuses, positively identifies and sh- and her. And it's a literal, he said, she said.

Joe Rogan 54:44 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 54:44 Okay? We, we read the particulars of the case. Uh, she said he robbed her of the groceries, took it and then ran off. When they, the cops found the guy, he was not in possession of anything she said he took. They looked in the area for anything stashed in dumpsters or anything, they couldn't find anything. Okay? So, it's, that's, that's the state of the case. And the judge reads the particulars and goes to the, um, down, like down to the last 15. I'm almost on a jury for the first time in my life, I'm almost there. And said, uh, "Do you have any, would, does anyone have any, think they would not be able to convict based on the kind of information and evidence that's been presented?" And, um, and they said, "Juror 14." Whatever you're numbered, right? Until you're selected. Um, they said, uh, "Would you have any prob..." I said, "Yes. I'd have a problem if the only evidence available is eyewitness testimony that everything I know about it, tells me I should not trust it on the level where you end up putting someone in jail." It's like-

Joe Rogan 55:48 Hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 55:48 ... so I could not convict if that's the only evidence you have. What the judge said next was, "Are there any other jurors, like juror 14, who th- said, who needs more than one witness before they would be able to convict?" And I said, sh- should I jump in now and say, n- that's not what I said? What should I do? I think in my s- the person in front of me said, "Your Honor, that's not what he said."

Joe Rogan 56:16 Ah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 56:17 Okay? And, and I said, "Oh, thank you." (laughs) Thank you, Jesus. Right? Wh- where I s- he said, "That's not what he said." And I, I resisted with all my might to say, "Your Honor, you were eyewitness to what I said 20 seconds ago and got it wrong." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:34 Yes. (laughs)

Neil deGrasse Tyson 56:35 But I, I resisted, but I was nonetheless on the street 20 minutes later.

Joe Rogan 56:39 I think you should've said that just for his own edification.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 56:41 No, it was a she, by the way.

Joe Rogan 56:42 She?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 56:43 But, um-

Joe Rogan 56:43 Sorry, I'm sexist.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 56:44 You're totally sexist.

Joe Rogan 56:45 What's wrong with me? (laughs)

Neil deGrasse Tyson 56:45 We've, we've all knew, known that forever. Um-

Joe Rogan 56:48 Slap myself on the wrist.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 56:49 Right. Uh, so I'm just saying it's clear that the legal system, the precision of-

Joe Rogan 56:56 Deeply flawed.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 56:57 ... uh, it's deeply flawed. And they say, "Well, it's the best we have." Well then fix it.

Joe Rogan 57:01 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 57:01 I mean, if that's how you were talking when they used to dunk people-

Joe Rogan 57:03 How-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 57:03 ... and if you died face up you were innocent and died face down you were guilty.

Joe Rogan 57:08 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 57:08 That was the best they had then, but we improved on it.

Joe Rogan 57:11 Right. If they drowned you, you weren't a witch. Congratulations, you weren't guilty.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 57:15 Well, it depends on, yeah, if you-

Joe Rogan 57:16 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 57:16 ... that's right, how you died.

Joe Rogan 57:17 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 57:18 And you'd otherwise go to heaven, where you would-

Joe Rogan 57:20 Right.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 57:20 ... what, you know. So, um, plus there's (laughs) I, in Columbus's voyage, we, there's a lot. We talked about Columbus last time on the, on the show.

Joe Rogan 57:30 Oh, I've talked about Columbus many times.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 57:31 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:32 It's horrific.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 57:33 So, uh, in one of the voyages, they went on some stretch of time and they didn't have food and, and they had, um, Indians from their, the, that they'd brought on board as well as some of their own crew. And people were dying and so, uh, at sea, what do you do with a dead body? You throw it overboard, of course, okay? So, a person who's keeping notes said all the Indians they threw overboard, um, floated face down and all the Christians floated face up. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:04 Oh, Christ.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 58:04 So, I said, "Okay." (laughs) Okay.

Joe Rogan 58:08 (sighs)

Neil deGrasse Tyson 58:08 I guess that could happen. Statistically, perhaps. I don't know.

Joe Rogan 58:14 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 58:14 But now we have his handwritten notes, eyewitness testimony of something that is completely fulfilling his own worldview's expectations of how things should be.

Joe Rogan 58:26 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 58:27 So that's, so in, in the whole sort of law and order chapter, I just, uh, take, pick all that apart and just try to say, you know, why not have jurors that are really good at data analysis? How about that?

Joe Rogan 58:39 That would be nice, but that's really hard to find. And then on top of that, if you are dealing with eyewitness testimony, what do you do? Do you just throw everything out completely or do you try to assess whether or not that person is capable of objective thought and reasoning?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 58:53 No, you just... no. Because even people who are better at it are still flawed at it, okay?

Joe Rogan 58:58 Right, especially under experiences under extreme duress.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 59:01 Oh, stress, stress experiences.

Joe Rogan 59:01 Yes.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 59:02 Correct. As they've done many times in psychology class.

Joe Rogan 59:05 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 59:05 They have, you know, a class is unfolding and they stage some-

Joe Rogan 59:09 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 59:09 ... violent thing with an explosion and then they say, "Write what you just saw."

Joe Rogan 59:12 Right, right.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 59:13 And nothing agrees.

Joe Rogan 59:15 Right, right.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 59:15 Okay? So, yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a challenge, but-

Joe Rogan 59:18 Which is the problem of conspiracy theories after big events like 9/11. Like all the people that say they saw this and they saw that and I remember this and I remember that-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 59:27 Correct.

Joe Rogan 59:27 And then you have these little sound bites of all these people and you piece them together and you're like, "Oh my God, they planted bombs."

Neil deGrasse Tyson 59:32 And there also, uh, there are people who say, uh, beph- um, before an er- uh, an earthquake...

Joe Rogan 59:39 They knew it was gonna happen.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 59:40 (laughs) They say, they see all the animals running.

Joe Rogan 59:42 Right.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 59:42 And it's like, okay, you reported that after the earthquake happened, not like before.

Joe Rogan 59:47 But doesn't that happen during tsunamis? Don't, don't a- animals actually do go to higher ground? I think that has actually been documented.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 59:55 I... okay. So-

Joe Rogan 59:56 I believe that happened in-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 59:57 ... I'm highly suspicious-

Joe Rogan 59:58 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 59:58 ... of whether that's true, um, because a tsunami... there's, there's no way to know that. A tsunami typically is, occurs from an earthquake way offshore.

Joe Rogan 1:00:09 Right, but-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:00:09 Okay? And it's a very low amplitude wave in deep water that continues to gain amplitude as the water gets shallower and shallower. So, that's why waves get bigger when they-

Joe Rogan 1:00:22 Yes.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:00:22 ... crash on the shores. So as it comes to the shore... So if you're just a, you're just an animal in the woods, um, if you're not on the shoreline, uh, there's no way to know that.

Joe Rogan 1:00:32 I think they were talking about animals on islands and animals that do live closer to the shore, and maybe there's an indication because the water pulls back before a tsunami.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:00:41 Sure, I can, I can recognize that. But if you're just an animal somewhere in o- o- you know, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:00:45 Right.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:00:46 ... on shore...... away from the coast. I don't really see that. I need to see very good evidence for that, and not just someone's account.

Joe Rogan 1:00:54 Yeah, I don't know if they're talking about-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:00:55 This is my whole point.

Joe Rogan 1:00:55 ... Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:00:56 That people have accounts of all kinds of things.

Joe Rogan 1:00:58 Right.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:00:58 You know, um, in, in the... uh, there's a whole other chapter called Risk and Reward, all right? Here's something. Surely in your life, you have taken an average of numbers before.

Joe Rogan 1:01:10 Okay. Yeah, sure.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:01:11 Tell me yes. Lie to me even if it's not true. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:13 I have, yeah, definitely.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:01:14 Yeah, yeah. So, okay. Do you realize that the first time anyone ever did that, to realize that "Maybe there's some interesting result here," was after the invention of algebra, trigonometry, geometry, and calculus.

Joe Rogan 1:01:34 Really?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:01:35 Statistics is just something that the human brain... it, it's just not natural.

Joe Rogan 1:01:42 Mm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:01:42 It is completely foreign to us. We, we don't know how to interpret simple random events because we wanna give meaning to them. You know the thing where you're, you're in a some other country in some other city and you meet someone like a childhood friend.

Joe Rogan 1:01:58 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:01:59 And you say, "Small world!"

Joe Rogan 1:02:00 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:02:01 That's your first thought, right?

Joe Rogan 1:02:02 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:02:02 Small world. Okay. Here's, here's how to cure that. Okay? Next time you're in a foreign city, go up to every single person you walk by and say, "Do I know you?" And they'll probably say no. I mean, know you personally. They'll know you 'cause you're a dude, but (laughs) they know you personally? No. Just keep doing this. And if they say, "No, I don't know you," then say, "Big world!" Just do that. You'll do that millions of times-

Joe Rogan 1:02:31 Okay.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:02:31 ... before you meet someone who you once knew. And the proper statistics will then get recorded for that. So, no, it's not a small world, it's a fucking big world, and there are a lot of people in it who you don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:02:46 It's just very unusual when you meet someone in another country that you know from back home.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:02:49 No, no, no, no, there's a point where... well, if you do the math, there are a lot of things that people say are unusual where it would be unusual if you didn't.

Joe Rogan 1:02:59 Well, if you fly to England and you don't tell anybody you're flying to England and you run into a friend from back home, that's pretty unusual.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:03:09 Look how often people say that, say that it happens. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:11 Well, we, we live in a strange world now. Like, like, that's why, that's precisely my point! Right.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:03:15 Okay? Everybody you know has that story.

Joe Rogan 1:03:19 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:03:19 If you run the statistics on it-

Joe Rogan 1:03:20 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:03:21 ... it would be odd if you went your life... uh, presuming you have a normal life and you know people and your school was big and all of this.

Joe Rogan 1:03:28 Uh-huh.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:03:28 Okay? You didn't grow up in a farm with, you know, with, where nobody... w- you didn't know anybody. I- i- it requires some basic number of people.

Joe Rogan 1:03:36 Right.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:03:36 So, there's a lot of errors of statistics that we make, of probability and statistics. The sad part of it is there's an entire industry that has risen to exploit that fact, and they're called casinos. The fact that you could go to a roulette table and somebody's got a lot of money on seven... I say, "Why do you have money on seven?" "It's due." "What do you mean it's due?" "Well, look at the previous rolls," 'cause they'll show you the previous rolls, and seven hasn't appeared in 20 rolls or whatever the number is they put. And say, "So, it's due." No, it's not due. This is a failure of the human brain to understand and interpret probability and statistics. There are people who are, who're gonna roll dice, okay? If they need a low number, they'll take the dice and, like, gently roll (laughs) them.

Joe Rogan 1:04:22 (laughs)

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:04:22 If they need a high number, they'll throw them hard.

Joe Rogan 1:04:24 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:04:24 This is, this is-

Joe Rogan 1:04:26 Nonsense.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:04:26 ... this is crazy. And, and-

Joe Rogan 1:04:28 But those people are suckers.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:04:29 ...'cause, 'cause-

Joe Rogan 1:04:31 There's other people-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:04:32 I think it's-

Joe Rogan 1:04:32 ... that do understand statistics and they kick them out of casinos 'cause they count cards.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:04:36 Only, only for those that are not purely random, like a roulette table, okay?

Joe Rogan 1:04:40 You mean for-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:04:41 Or, or dice, okay?

Joe Rogan 1:04:41 Right, you mean things like-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:04:42 So-

Joe Rogan 1:04:42 ... blackjack.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:04:43 Yeah, correct. You can-

Joe Rogan 1:04:45 Right.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:04:45 ... tilt the odds in your favor-

Joe Rogan 1:04:46 Right.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:04:46 ... a little bit and be systematic about it. But for... I'm talking about pure probabilities. The fact that someone thinks that-

Joe Rogan 1:04:53 Right.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:04:53 ... a number is due-

Joe Rogan 1:04:54 Right.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:04:55 ... is itself a... Do you realize the American Physical Society, these are my, my physics peeps, that's our physics society. 1986, they were gonna have their annual meeting in San Diego and there was a hotel SNAFU, so they had to reschedule. And so Vegas said, "We'll take you." The MGM Marina, which became the MGM Grand. "We'll take you." 4,000 physicists said, "Okay." (laughs) 4,000 physicists had their annual meeting in Las Vegas. And let me tell you, okay? K through 12, is there even a course offered in probability and statistics? You, you learn reading, writing, and arithmetic, not reading, writing, and probability and statistics, right? It's kinda not there.

Joe Rogan 1:05:40 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:05:41 And if it's there, it's an elective, okay?

Joe Rogan 1:05:43 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:05:43 So, as a scientist, especially as a physical scientist, I take some form of probability and statistics every single year I am in school. Different nuances and how data can be looked at and analyzed and put together and averaged. And the average that I told you about, you add numbers, divide by the... That's one of a dozen kinda ways you can average numbers. There are other ways. You could, you can have a statistically weighted average. It depends on the needs, depends on the situation. Point is, the physicists came to Vegas. One week later, there was a news headline, "Physicists in town, lowest casino take ever."

Joe Rogan 1:06:21 (laughs)

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:06:23 Physicists were, were told to never return to Vegas.

Joe Rogan 1:06:27 That... really?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:06:28 Yes!

Joe Rogan 1:06:28 They were told to never return?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:06:30 They were told. They were told. Well, that might be apocryphal, but it was in, it was in the headline.

Joe Rogan 1:06:33 Really?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:06:33 Yeah, yeah. So-

Joe Rogan 1:06:35 That's funny.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:06:35 So, these are people, these are my peeps, this is what we do.

Joe Rogan 1:06:38 Little too smart.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:06:38 We think about... So, it's not because we took advantage (claps) of the craps ta- of, of the, of the-

Joe Rogan 1:06:44 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:06:44 ... the blackjack table. It's because they just simply didn't gamble.

Joe Rogan 1:06:47 Well, I'm the same way. I, I don't gamble either. I just see, I look how big the place is. I'm like, "How was this made? By selling tickets to the buffet?"

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:06:54 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:06:56 I don't think so.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:06:57 Not, yeah. Not-

Joe Rogan 1:06:57 I don't think so. No, this is made from suckers.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:07:00 Not.

Joe Rogan 1:07:00 Me and my wife went, uh, a few months ago-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:07:02 Oh, wait, one other thing. Let's say you're, you're, you're winning-

Joe Rogan 1:07:04 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:07:05 ... in something, y- you're, you're in the, in the one-arm bandit and you, and you, you had a jackpot, jackpot. What do they do with you?... at that point they see this is happening, what does the house do?

Joe Rogan 1:07:14 They check the machine-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:07:15 No, no, no.

Joe Rogan 1:07:16 ... or check you.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:07:16 Nope.

Joe Rogan 1:07:17 They give you free drinks.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:07:17 (laughs) They give you free drinks.

Joe Rogan 1:07:19 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:07:19 They, they got a comely server to come over to you-

Joe Rogan 1:07:22 Yes.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:07:22 ... and say, "Would you like a free cocktail?"

Joe Rogan 1:07:24 Yes.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:07:25 To stir chemicals into your brain-

Joe Rogan 1:07:27 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:07:28 ... to disrupt the little bit of objective reality-

Joe Rogan 1:07:31 Right.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:07:31 ... that you're experiencing-

Joe Rogan 1:07:32 Release your inhibitions.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:07:33 ... at that-

Joe Rogan 1:07:33 You're feeling lucky. Are you feeling lucky, Neil?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:07:36 Feeling lucky. Are you feeling lucky?

Joe Rogan 1:07:37 Yeah. I'm not lu- I don't feel lucky at all at casinos. I feel stupid.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:07:41 Oh, a- and another thing with the, uh, state lotteries.

Joe Rogan 1:07:44 Hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:07:44 This is all in the pr- in the, in the, uh, risk and reward chapter. State lotteries, do you know what most of the revenue... You know, it's the state money-

Joe Rogan 1:07:54 Right.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:07:54 ... which goes into the coffers.

Joe Rogan 1:07:55 Right.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:07:55 The tax coffers. Do you know where most of that money is allocated for, in most states?

Joe Rogan 1:07:58 No.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:07:59 It goes to education.

Joe Rogan 1:08:00 Oh, that's good.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:08:00 You didn't know that?

Joe Rogan 1:08:01 No, that's great.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:08:01 Yeah. It's cool. It's, it's... So that makes you feel a little better, like you're helping out your own state-

Joe Rogan 1:08:06 Right.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:08:06 ... when you buy your state lottery. Here's the thing. I, part of me wonders... Okay, let me join you in a conspiracy thing here. Okay?

Joe Rogan 1:08:14 Okay.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:08:15 It's my, my conspiracy.

Joe Rogan 1:08:17 Okay.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:08:17 Okay? Am I allowed?

Joe Rogan 1:08:18 Yes, please.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:08:18 Am I allowed one per-

Joe Rogan 1:08:19 Please do.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:08:19 ... one per year?

Joe Rogan 1:08:20 I'll gi- give you all the ones you want.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:08:22 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:22 I love a good conspiracy.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:08:23 Um, the conspiracy is, they have to make sure that the school curriculum does not teach probability and statistics. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:32 What? What?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:08:32 Because if they did-

Joe Rogan 1:08:33 Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:08:34 If they did, then no one would play the lottery.

Joe Rogan 1:08:37 So they allocate money to education with a specific mandate-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:08:42 No, I'm not saying-

Joe Rogan 1:08:43 ... that you can't-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:08:43 ... that, that... I'm not saying that.

Joe Rogan 1:08:45 What are you saying?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:08:45 I'm... Yes, I'm saying that. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:48 (laughs) Joe's saying no, no, no. He wasn't... It's not, like, a law.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:08:52 No, no, no.

Joe Rogan 1:08:52 Yeah. No, but-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:08:53 No, no, no.

Joe Rogan 1:08:53 Oh, okay. Yeah. I know that.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:08:54 No, I'm just saying, it's a little suspicious-

Joe Rogan 1:08:59 That they don't teach those things.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:09:00 ... that the very knowledge of math-

Joe Rogan 1:09:02 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:09:02 ... that would undermine the ability of the state lottery to make money is not a required part of the math curriculum in kindergarten through 12.

Joe Rogan 1:09:13 Hmm. So you think... But you don't think that's why.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:09:17 I'm just playing with the th- No, I don't really think that's why.

Joe Rogan 1:09:20 Right. Okay.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:09:22 No. Okay, so (laughs) I see what you were doing there. You were assuming that I was totally in on this conspiracy theory, and I have charts on my wall and websites devoted to it. No, it just crossed my mind how odd it is that when you know enough about probability and statistics, you bet less, and when you bet less, the revenue to the state would drop, and that's the revenue that would go to education.

Joe Rogan 1:09:46 Hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:09:46 So i- it has the power to plant s- the seeds of its own undoing, and it doesn't do that.

Joe Rogan 1:09:56 So-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:09:56 I'm intrigued by that fact.

Joe Rogan 1:09:57 ... uh, just removing ourselves from the conspiracy theory aspect of it, do you think that it would be beneficial to teach probability and statistics to people?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:10:05 Oh, my gosh.

Joe Rogan 1:10:07 Along with-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:10:07 Look at how many bad decisions we make-

Joe Rogan 1:10:09 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:10:10 ... because we think we have an understanding of what is random and what is not.

Joe Rogan 1:10:15 Right.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:10:15 What is a... Um, uh, there's the one... (laughs) They did this, but actually their analysis was flawed, but the basis was well, was, was well-placed. So the idea, you're playing a basketball game, and somebody hits a few shots in a row. If he's got a hot hand, give it to them.

Joe Rogan 1:10:33 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:10:33 They don't have a hot hand. It is the natural consequence... If you're shooting 50% in a game or 40%-

Joe Rogan 1:10:42 Yes.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:10:43 ... and you take, I don't know how many shots, you take 30 shots, you can look at the probability that you'll have multiple shots in a row that are made, and it's very high and it's very real.

Joe Rogan 1:10:55 But do you discount-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:10:56 So it's not something special happening. It is the randomness of the statistics that's happening.

Joe Rogan 1:11:01 Okay, but this is talking about statistics, but from an individual basis. Do you discount the idea that sometimes people feel really good, and they have a very good sense of where the ball's going when they're more loose or relaxed or more, more practiced, whatever it may be, and they're more accurate because of that?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:11:21 If that's the case... Z- z-... No, so people, so people have good days, all right?

Joe Rogan 1:11:25 Right.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:11:26 M- clearly. So this is why that original analysis was slightly flawed.

Joe Rogan 1:11:30 Uh-huh.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:11:31 Because a person can have more than what is typical shots in a row.

Joe Rogan 1:11:35 Right.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:11:35 Okay? And for that game, you could look at their data, and they would make 60% of their shots instead of 40% of their shots. And if you make 60% of the shots, you then expect (claps) three in a row here, six in a row there, five in a row here. In the, i- in the random expression of having a 60%, uh, uh, success rate in a basket-

Joe Rogan 1:11:58 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:11:58 ... you expect, um, intervals where you make multiple shots in a row. That's my only point. And that could be a good day for you 'cause you're shooting 60%.

Joe Rogan 1:12:07 Right.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:12:07 And I wanna, I wanna recognize that, and I'm gonna hand you the ball if you're having a good day.

Joe Rogan 1:12:11 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:12:11 You can totally have a good day. But at the end of the day, you're not, you're not sinking 20 here and none before it. No. It... The statistics, uh, maintain themselves in the game, unless you get injured or something, of course. So, but my point is, we have such a... And I don't wanna blame people for this. If it was natural to think statistically about the world, it would've been w- the first branches of math we would've ever discovered. But it wasn't. It was, like, 1753. Sounds like a long time ago, but it's 50 years after calculus was invented-

Joe Rogan 1:12:45 Hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:12:45 ... after calculus, which is not even taught in school.

Joe Rogan 1:12:48 That's not long ago at all, really.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:12:49 Okay? Correct. Um, there's a simple paper on the benefits of taking the mean, mean is average, of, of observations, uh, in astronomical data. So an astronomer did it. First to take a mean. And this is just... S- so that tells me we are victims of our own brain wiring. And so... And it takes many years to undo that wiring or to see through it so that you are not, um-... uh, you know, and, uh, it, it prevents you from seeing other things, okay?

Joe Rogan 1:13:22 How so?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:13:24 Do you realize, last year we lost as many people in the United States to traffic accidents as we did in all the years we fought in Vietnam? Look at the effort we put up as a country, beginning maybe 1967, certainly '68, to stop the carnage. And that's just the American deaths, not to mention the millions of deaths of the Vietnamese themselves, North and South. Point is, our reactions to statistics are very different depending on what caused it.

Joe Rogan 1:14:01 Yes.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:14:01 And that's... I'm intrigued by that. I don't have a good understanding of it. Um, uh, any laws that treat it are gonna have to fold in people's emotions. Here's an example. Uh, you, you, you shoot deer with your bow and arrow. Uh, there's a certain number of deer deaths and human deaths by cars hitting deer in the roads.

Joe Rogan 1:14:23 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:14:23 Especially in suburban/rural (sniffs) places, okay? Well, uh, what do you do about this? What are you gonna do?

Joe Rogan 1:14:31 Get a truck with a big-ass bumper.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:14:33 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:14:35 That's what they do out here.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:14:36 The Joe Rogan solution to- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:14:37 That's the Texas solution. You ever see those guys that work on ranches? Ranches, they have these-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:14:41 Make sure your truck has significantly more mass than the, than the deer, correct.

Joe Rogan 1:14:45 No, they, they have specific bumpers that they, they build to save people's lives.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:14:50 Right. And, of course, this is what, uh, the old locomotives had if there were cattle on the... You, you ever see that pointy front on locomotives?

Joe Rogan 1:14:58 Yes, exactly.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:14:58 Yeah, that was to pry cattle off-

Joe Rogan 1:15:00 Yes.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:15:00 ... so it wouldn't roll over the cow and derail the thing.

Joe Rogan 1:15:03 Right, right.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:15:03 So, um, so what do you do? Do you accept the 100 deaths a year in your county, whatever... Human deaths.

Joe Rogan 1:15:12 Uh-huh.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:15:12 No one's counting deer deaths here, right? Or, or do you find something that-

Joe Rogan 1:15:16 Get yourself a big-ass bumper.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:15:16 Oh, there you go. Big-ass bumper.

Joe Rogan 1:15:18 Deer killer bumpers, look at those suckers.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:15:20 I like the Ford F-250 right there.

Joe Rogan 1:15:22 That's what I'm talking about. That's what I'm saying. Look at that one, uh, the Ford F-250, that red one, that's what I'm talking about.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:15:26 The problem is, if the-

Joe Rogan 1:15:27 Get yourself one of those.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:15:27 ... if the center of mass of the deer is above the level of that bumper-

Joe Rogan 1:15:32 But it's not.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:15:33 Th- th- well, for elk it would be.

Joe Rogan 1:15:34 Deers don't-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:15:34 For moose it would be.

Joe Rogan 1:15:36 Uh...

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:15:36 My wife grew up in Alaska.

Joe Rogan 1:15:38 No.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:15:38 Yes. Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:15:39 Yeah. No, not a 250. F-250?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:15:41 Uh-

Joe Rogan 1:15:41 Center of mass of an elk?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:15:43 Uh, uh, okay-

Joe Rogan 1:15:44 A moose.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:15:44 S- so moose. I'm sorry, moose.

Joe Rogan 1:15:45 A moose, yes.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:15:45 I'm talking about moose.

Joe Rogan 1:15:46 Moose is a different thing, yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:15:47 I, I, I saw a moose, you know.

Joe Rogan 1:15:48 Oh, boy.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:15:49 I had my wife who grew up in Alaska-

Joe Rogan 1:15:50 When you see one for the first time, you're like, "How is that real?"

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:15:51 What the hell is that? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:15:54 The first time I saw a moose-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:15:55 How did that happen?

Joe Rogan 1:15:56 ... I was in British Columbia and I saw it. It was like the scene in Jurassic Park where Jeff Bull, Goldblum gets out of the Jeep and he's like... (imitates gasping)

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:16:03 Yeah. And it's like, who, who invented that?

Joe Rogan 1:16:06 What?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:16:06 Right, right.

Joe Rogan 1:16:06 Look at the size of that thing.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:16:07 Right, so if you're under the center of mass, then it will just roll up and crush your windshield.

Joe Rogan 1:16:11 Yes.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:16:11 So you have to watch out for that.

Joe Rogan 1:16:12 Well, go through your windshield.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:16:13 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:16:14 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Terrific.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:16:15 Um, so here's my point. Uh, there is a group, I forgot where, somewhere in New England, who did a study. And the study was, um, if you have 100 deaths a year, we can drop that to maybe 30 deaths a year. Uh, how? By introducing the natural cat predator to the deer. So, it would be like the puma or a bobcat, one of these sort of mid-sized cats-

Joe Rogan 1:16:41 Mm-hmm.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:16:41 ... that hold the deer as their quarry, okay?

Joe Rogan 1:16:45 Yes.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:16:45 And they ran some models of how this would go, and you could drop the number of human deaths by a factor of three, okay? Uh, because still some deer would wander onto the road. But, you'll lose about 10 children a year. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:17:06 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:17:06 They'll just snatch your kid out of the backyard-

Joe Rogan 1:17:09 Yeah. Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:17:09 ... and eat your child. So, look at these numbers. You killed 100 people in their cars, or, or the deer killed 30 people plus 10 children. Oh, no, no. The, the, the, the deer killed 30 people, the bobcat kills 10... And a bobcat might not kill an adult-

Joe Rogan 1:17:26 Not bobcat.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:17:27 Not bobcat but whatever is the-

Joe Rogan 1:17:28 Mountain lion.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:17:28 Next... Mountain lion, that's the word.

Joe Rogan 1:17:29 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:17:29 Or whatever was native in the region-

Joe Rogan 1:17:31 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:17:31 ... long ago, okay?

Joe Rogan 1:17:32 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:17:33 And so they did a study. And the point is, you could not bring that suggestion forward-

Joe Rogan 1:17:39 Right.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:17:41 ... because the government would be introducing an animal that killed your children, but no one's looking at the 100 people that were k- whatever the numbers were. It was a factor of three or so. I don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:17:51 Do you know there's another solution?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:17:52 The correct numbers are in, in the book. No, I'm, I'm just giving this as an example-

Joe Rogan 1:17:56 I understand.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:17:56 ... of, of, of we don't... We're not equipped to fold our emotions with the data to arrive at a solution that would save the most lives.

Joe Rogan 1:18:10 I see what you're saying. Um, there is a technological solution that they've come up with. They, there's a, um, a device that they put at the front of the car that makes a f- a very certain sound that alerts deer-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:18:21 I've heard about that.

Joe Rogan 1:18:22 ... to the presence.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:18:23 It's right on the, on the-

Joe Rogan 1:18:23 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:18:23 ... on the edges of the... I've heard about that.

Joe Rogan 1:18:25 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:18:25 But I haven't... I read about it, like, 20 years ago or so. I haven't heard much about it since.

Joe Rogan 1:18:29 I don't know how effective it is.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:18:31 Yeah. It runs... Th- the air going through it makes a kind of a siren effect.

Joe Rogan 1:18:35 Is that what it is?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:18:35 Yeah, that... Well, that's when I last remembered it.

Joe Rogan 1:18:37 Yeah. Well, whatever it is, it develops some sort of a sound that the deer can hear and they avoid it, but they, they have a problem with headlights.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:18:45 Here's the thing! I, I was in, I was in Alaska and there was a deer and a grizzly bear. Must've been 300 yards away. Must... Way down in the valley, and the deer noticed it. And it was eating, but it was eating very cautiously, always looking to the bear. And I'm saying, "If it could notice a bear 300 yards and be cautious of it, why can't it know a Ford F-250 barreling down the road?"

Joe Rogan 1:19:14 'Cause it's not natural.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:19:16 Well, figure it out! I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:19:17 No, no, no, no, no, no.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:19:17 Come on, it's a mammal. It's got a brain.

Joe Rogan 1:19:19 That takes forever.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:19:19 So let me get, let me get, let me get angry with the deer for a second. (laughs) And how come we haven't killed all the stupid deer by now, so the ones that are left are the ones that recognize that cars kill them?

Joe Rogan 1:19:30 Because they're all stupid.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:19:31 (laughs) Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:19:31 They just have really good senses.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:19:33 And I heard someone just-

Joe Rogan 1:19:34 They have senses that are designed to avoid predation. They don't have senses-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:19:36 But they're living with us now, you know.

Joe Rogan 1:19:38 Right, but they don't under- uh, but how long have they had headlights?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:19:41 Mice and rats figured out how to coexist with humans.

Joe Rogan 1:19:43 Rats are very intelligent.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:19:44 They, they're, they're very... They figured this out, okay?

Joe Rogan 1:19:46 Yeah, but deer don't know what to do with headlights and cars. It's a completely unnatural thing.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:19:51 So everyone that doesn't, they die, and the ones that have a little bit of genetic variation that figures it out, they'll survive.

Joe Rogan 1:19:57 Sort of, because then they get horny. The problem with deers-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:20:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:20:01 ... the, if you look at the number of deaths-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:20:03 Sorry, I don't know anything about the sex life of deer.

Joe Rogan 1:20:04 I do.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:20:05 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:20:05 The, one of the things that happens is the uptick-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:20:06 Don't tell me how you know, move on.

Joe Rogan 1:20:08 Well, the rut. When deer rut is when you hunt them. And one of the things that happens during the rut is they get ridiculous and they just run out into traffic.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:20:16 They just, okay, they can't even control themselves.

Joe Rogan 1:20:18 They chase does into the street.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:20:19 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:20:19 That's oftentimes does, yes.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:20:20 The male deer chase the female deer?

Joe Rogan 1:20:22 'Cause they're just chasing 'em. The females are just trying to get away-

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:20:24 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:20:25 ... and they just run out into traffic. That happens. Or the male is trying to chase the female, and all he's got on his mind is he's got tunnel vision and they just boom, gets hit by that F-250.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:20:34 Spe- (laughs) speaking of deer, uh, by the way, my sister drives an F-250.

Joe Rogan 1:20:39 Okay.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:20:39 Or is it a 450? Is there a 450?

Joe Rogan 1:20:41 I don't know.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:20:41 No, she drives a 350, excuse me.

Joe Rogan 1:20:43 Okay. Oh, she has a dually?

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:20:44 Yeah, she's got one where the, the, the tires can do separate things.

Joe Rogan 1:20:47 Oh, okay.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:20:48 Up with the si- yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:20:49 Yeah.

Neil deGrasse Tyson 1:20:49 She's, she has, she's-

Joe Rogan 1:20:50 Oh, she's serious.