Joe Rogan Experience #1908 - Erika Thompson

1. 0:00 – 3:07

   Bees as a “superorganism”: colony identity and pheromone communication

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music)

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      This is your first podcast?

   3. ETErika Thompson0:15

      This is my first podcast.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      Well, thank you very much for allowing me to be the host of you for the first podcast.

   5. ETErika Thompson0:21

      Thank you so much for having me and the bees.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:23

      My pleasure. Um, I became fascinated with bees when we did an episode of Fear Factor, where we had to cover these people in bees. And it was this outdoor thing that we did at this ranch, and while we were doing it, a local hive of bees came over and interacted with our bees, and we had to shut down production. And so I talked to the beekeeper, I said, "What's going on?" And he said, "We have to shut everything down for an hour or so while they work this out." And I'm like-

   7. ETErika Thompson0:52

      While, while the bees work it out.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:54

      Yeah.

   9. ETErika Thompson0:54

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:54

       I'm like, "What do you mean?" And he's like, "Well, they're gonna communicate 'cause these bees are trying to figure out why these bees are here, wh- why our bees are there." And I go, "They're gonna communicate? Like, is it gonna be a bee war?" He's like, "No, they're gonna sort it out." And I'm like, "How do they sort it out?" And it's kind of unknown, right? Like, how... wh-

   11. ETErika Thompson1:11

       Sure. Well, what happened with those bees?

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:14

       They sorted it out.

   13. ETErika Thompson1:15

       And did-

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:15

       The other bees went away, and our bees came back and stayed, and then we resumed the show.

   15. ETErika Thompson1:21

       That's great.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:22

       So, uh, what kind of communication are bees capable of? Do we know?

   17. ETErika Thompson1:27

       We don't know everything there is to know about bees. Bees have been around for 120 million years. We've been keeping bees for maybe 10,000. You know, if, if I were to think I knew more than the bees, that would be so foolish of me. But we do know some of the ways that bees communicate. Um, they communicate through scents, through pheromones a lot, through these chemical signals that they're sending out to the entire colony to let this colony, that's a superorganism, know what's going on. And so, in your case, you know, you had one colony of bees. A colony is a collective noun, is the collective noun for a group of bees, whereas a hive is the box they live in. So you had these two colonies, you know, who met and were trying to make sure they all stayed together and they all stayed with their queen and went to the right place. And, you know, it sounds like you had a bunch of bees in one area, and bees are social creatures, so they were attracted to the scents of these other bees and were there to see what's going on and, you know, they eventually figured it out, and everybody went back to their respective places, and, and it was fine.

   18. JRJoe Rogan2:34

       So what is happening, though, when they're, when they're figuring it out? They're smelling the, the... Is it that these other bees have a specifically different pheromone?

   19. ETErika Thompson2:42

       Yes, they will have a different scent, and that's how they'll stay with their colony, and it comes from the queen. The queen has a queen mandibular pheromone, and so she is sending out scent signals, pheromones, to the colony. And they're always communicating with each other, and the queen and the worker bees have this wonderful system of checks and balances to make sure that everything gets done within the hive and that the colony is doing what it needs to.

2. 3:07 – 4:47

   Joining a new hive, worker lifespans, and why most bees you see are “elderly”

   1. JRJoe Rogan3:07

      Is it possible that bees who are, like, loner bees could integrate with another hive?

   2. ETErika Thompson3:13

      Absolutely. You know, it happens to me in my work all the time. I remove bees from places and, you know, I'll go in and take a colony and a hive out and relocate it to my apiary. And in that process, I don't always get every bee, of course. And the bees that are left behind, or if there's a loner bee, they can join another colony. And it's actually their chances of successfully joining are increased if they bring gifts of, of pollen or honey. So...

   3. JRJoe Rogan3:43

      Whoa. Wow.

   4. ETErika Thompson3:46

      But, you know, bees live a very short lifespan, so sometimes they'll just live out the rest of their bee life. And the bees that we see out in the world foraging, they're at the end of their, their short bee life.

   5. JRJoe Rogan3:59

      How long is a bee's life?

   6. ETErika Thompson4:00

      So a worker bee, and we're talking about honeybees, western honeybees, the ones you see me keep, um... Uh, the lifespan of a female worker bee varies throughout the year. So in the spring and summer, when the bees are working their hardest, the female worker bees will only live about six weeks. In the winter, when they're not doing quite as much, and when we need more bees to make it through the winter, they'll live a little bit longer and they'll live about six months. And their bodies actually change in the winter. The bees that are born later in the year and need to make it through the winter will have more fat bodies on them so that they can make it through the dearth when there's nothing in bloom and when bees are living off the honey that they collected or stored in their hive earlier in the year.

3. 4:47 – 11:48

   Drones, mating flights, and the brutal economics of reproduction

   1. JRJoe Rogan4:47

      And how long does a queen live?

   2. ETErika Thompson4:49

      The queen can live the longest. She can live about five years. That's on the longer end. Most queens will live a l- little bit shorter, but, uh, she can live significantly longer than all the other bees in the hive. And then we have the worker bees, um, uh, who live about six weeks, six months. The queen bee can live up to five years, and the drone bees will live about six months. The male bees.

   3. JRJoe Rogan5:12

      And what is the ratio of male bees to female bees?

   4. ETErika Thompson5:16

      They're... Uh, a honeybee colony is about 95% female.

   5. JRJoe Rogan5:21

      Oh.

   6. ETErika Thompson5:21

      And the amount of male bees can actually fluctuate throughout the year. So when we need male bees around to mate with a queen, and they'll mate with a queen, not their queen, but when we need more male bees around, the colony will produce more male bees. In the winter, when there aren't as many resources available to the bees, the female bees will kick all the male bees out of the hive and they'll either starve or freeze to death.

   7. JRJoe Rogan5:48

      True.

   8. ETErika Thompson5:49

      So right now, there are no...... male bees in, in most hives. Um, the, and these bees that came along with me today, there's, there's not a single male honeybee there.

   9. JRJoe Rogan5:59

      They starve to death.

   10. ETErika Thompson6:00

       They starve to death. They have no way of foraging. They don't do the work of bees, so most people have never seen a male honeybee before, and that's just because male honeybees don't, aren't out in the world doing the work of bees. They stay in the hive or they leave and they go to drone congregation areas to mate with a queen, but you know, they're not gonna be on a flower or in your wine glass or whatnot.

   11. JRJoe Rogan6:23

       So the male bees don't f- mate with their own females. Uh, would that be like mating with the mother?

   12. ETErika Thompson6:28

       That would be like incestuous. Right.

   13. JRJoe Rogan6:30

       Oh.

   14. ETErika Thompson6:31

       So, so here's what happens within the colony when it's time to, for the queen bee to mate. So once a queen bee is born, when she reaches the ripe age of about seven days old, she'll go on a mating flight, and she may go on only one, possibly two mating flights in her entire life, and she'll fly out of the hive, and she'll go to a drone congregation area, which is exactly what it sounds like. It's an area where there's a bunch of drone male honeybees flying around just waiting for a queen bee to fly by, and these drone congregation areas exist about 100 feet in the sky, which is another reason you would never see a male honeybee. But if a queen bee flies by, the fastest, strongest drones win and they will successfully mate with a queen, and the queen will mate with only about 15 to 20 drone bees and she'll have enough sperm to last the rest of her life. And what happens to the male bees is once they mate with a queen, their endophallus rips out of their abdominal cavity and they fall to the ground, and that's the end of their little bee life.

   15. JRJoe Rogan7:38

       Whoa. So they die during mating?

   16. ETErika Thompson7:40

       They die during mating.

   17. JRJoe Rogan7:42

       (Exhales) Harsh life for a male bee.

   18. ETErika Thompson7:44

       Depending how you-

   19. JRJoe Rogan7:45

       Starve to death.

   20. ETErika Thompson7:45

       ... look at it, I guess. (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan7:46

       Die when you have sex.

   22. ETErika Thompson7:47

       Yes. (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan7:48

       Rough.

   24. ETErika Thompson7:48

       I mean, but also, you know, his, his genes pass on and he's a successful male honeybee, so.

   25. JRJoe Rogan7:54

       Mm-hmm.

   26. ETErika Thompson7:55

       But they also don't have to do a lot of work in the hive, you know? They, they don't forage for food, they don't build the hive, they don't have wax glands, they don't even have stingers. They don't defend the hive, so-

   27. JRJoe Rogan8:06

       So-

   28. ETErika Thompson8:06

       ... they have one role.

   29. JRJoe Rogan8:07

       So how does the, th- the m- does the males know? Is there a specific time of the year where the males know that the female queen is going to be flying around?

   30. ETErika Thompson8:17

       Sure, in the spring and in the summer, and that's when, you know, that's their only job. So if they're present, that's what they're trying to do, and that's why the colony controls how many drones there are. So right now, in the hive, there aren't that many drone bees because w- they're trying to conserve the resources they have. So the honey that we eat from bees is their food source in the winter when nothing is in bloom and there's no for- there's no flowers out there for them to forage from.
4. 11:48 – 13:59

   How comb is built: from circles to hexagons and why it’s engineered at an angle

   1. JRJoe Rogan11:48

      There's, it's so fascinating how they have this uniform structure, the hive.

   2. ETErika Thompson11:52

      Yes.

   3. JRJoe Rogan11:53

      With all these little catacombs and all these little combs that they create, and they all do it the same way.

   4. ETErika Thompson11:59

      Yes.

   5. JRJoe Rogan12:00

      ... like, how do they know how to do it? Do we have an understanding of how they teach each other, or is it innate in their genetics? Like ...

   6. ETErika Thompson12:08

      Well, the comb building is a really interesting, um, is a really interesting process, because we see it as hexagonal comb, right? We see h- little hexagons within the hive. But they actually start off building it as, as circles. So the weight of the hive will, will bring it down, and the way that they build the comb is actually up at an angle so that the honey doesn't seep out. It's remarkable what they have figured out how to do as a species, how to engineer this perfect building and do it out of beeswax, out of something that their body produces naturally. I mean, I can think of no better example that nature has given us for a sustainable creature that can build its home out of, you know, something that comes off of its body and just live with what's around, with what's around them, and then always leave the world better than they found it. It's, they're amazing.

   7. JRJoe Rogan13:03

      It is very fascinating. But do we have any sort of studies on what, what is the process that's going on within them that allows them to know when it's time to create these combs and ...

   8. ETErika Thompson13:17

      I don't know if it's when it's time to create the combs. I mean, they n- they start creating a comb as soon as they find a cavity to build in. Um, most of the comb building takes place within the first 40 days. The bees will build the majority of their hives. So it's, I would, I don't know for sure, but I would say it's just a natural instinct. When they find a place to live, they need safety and they need a place to br- to bring up their young. The queen lays eggs in the comb. It's not just storing honey and food. You know, this is where the bees also raise their young. And, um, I think it's just, they know that they need a safe place to live, and so they start to build a beehive immediately.

5. 13:59 – 20:41

   Making queens: royal jelly, emergency egg-laying, and queens fighting to the death

   1. JRJoe Rogan13:59

      And does the q- if the queen, it's, it's a solitary queen in, in the hive, in the colony, so what happens when females are born?

   2. ETErika Thompson14:09

      So the female bees are the worker bees, and they're the ones that make up about, you know, 95% -

   3. JRJoe Rogan14:14

      Right.

   4. ETErika Thompson14:14

      ... of the population. And they cannot lay eggs that have been fertilized, so they can lay eggs that only result in drone male bees. So there's no competition between the queen and the worker bees. I mean, there's, you know, the queen has one job. That's to lay eggs for the colony. She is essentially the female reproductive organ of this greater being that is the superorganism of a bee colony. So when the worker bees are born, they're, they're the ones doing all the work for the hive, those, the other female bees besides the queen bee.

   5. JRJoe Rogan14:52

      So the, does the queen, th- when the, the worker bees are born, and you said they lay eggs and they can only make males?

   6. ETErika Thompson14:59

      They don't lay eggs.

   7. JRJoe Rogan15:00

      They don't lay eggs.

   8. ETErika Thompson15:01

      So, they can, and on occasion they will if a colony is queenless.

   9. JRJoe Rogan15:07

      Hmm.

   10. ETErika Thompson15:07

       But it doesn't mean the colony can continue. So without a queen, a colony can't continue. So as a last resort is the only time you will see female worker bees laying eggs in a colony. And they will lay eggs that turn into bees that look different. They're male drone bees and so their, their larvae and their pupae look a little bit different than the worker bees. And so as a beekeeper, if you see a colony full of male honeybee babies, brood, eggs, and larvae, it's a sign that a colony may be without a queen.

   11. JRJoe Rogan15:41

       And what happens then?

   12. ETErika Thompson15:43

       So as a beekeeper, you can introduce a new queen to the colony and likely they'll accept her. You can also give the colony eggs from another colony that are female eggs, so female bee eggs. Any female bee egg can be made into a queen bee. So if you give a colony that's queenless the opportunity to make their own queen, that's sometimes even better than introducing a new queen to them. And the way that a queen bee is made is when the queen bee lays an egg, and if it's a female worker bee egg, which most of them are because, again, 95% of the colony's population is female, every bee in the first three days of their life, they're fed royal jelly, and then they're switched to a diet of, of pollen and a little bit of nectar. But if a baby bee is fed royal jelly through the duration of its development, it turns into a queen bee.

   13. JRJoe Rogan16:42

       But a regular worker bee cannot give birth or cannot lay an egg that would be a queen bee ...

   14. ETErika Thompson16:49

       Correct.

   15. JRJoe Rogan16:49

       ... or even a female bee.

   16. ETErika Thompson16:50

       Correct.

   17. JRJoe Rogan16:50

       So where does that female bee come from? Only from a queen?

   18. ETErika Thompson16:54

       Where does ... Yes.

   19. JRJoe Rogan16:56

       So a queen can only give birth to a queen.

   20. ETErika Thompson17:00

       A queen can lay both female and male bee eggs.

   21. JRJoe Rogan17:02

       O- I shouldn't say give birth. Lay, lay ... So a female can lay a female d- So does, when the female, when a queen knows that her time is short, when she's about to die, does she, like, make a successor?

   22. ETErika Thompson17:17

       Well, it's not always the queen that knows and it's more the colony that's making the decision. So we often think of, you know, a colony of bees being a monarchy where the queen is in charge and making all of the decisions, but that's not the case at all. It's the colony making the decisions. So it's all the worker bees, it's the collective of female worker bees making that decision. And they can take any female egg and turn it into a queen bee, not only by that diet of royal jelly, but they will also make the cell that the bee is born into a little bit bigger to accommodate the queen bee's larger body size. So it's actually the group of female worker bees that's making that decision. And the queen bee doesn't always know when she's in her final days. It's the colony that would know. Her pheromones would get weaker and they would prepare for having a new queen, and sometimes ...... even have a new queen develop while their old queen is still alive. And in the case that you have a colony with an older queen who is failing and a new queen who was just, who just emerged from a cell, the queens will fight to the death.

   23. JRJoe Rogan18:26

       Oh, geez.

   24. ETErika Thompson18:27

       (laughs) And then, then, and the, and the best queen wins. And that's, you know, that's what happen, that's what needs to happen for the life of the bee colony.

   25. JRJoe Rogan18:35

       Wow, they fight to the death. What a ruthless world.

   26. ETErika Thompson18:39

       Y- ... They have figured it out, though, how to do this and how to live in these giant societies. And, you know, it all works, and it's remarkable.

   27. JRJoe Rogan18:49

       It is very remarkable, but it's, it's also very ruthless, right? I mean, it's kinda crazy that they fight to the death.

   28. ETErika Thompson18:55

       I, sure.

   29. JRJoe Rogan18:56

       Like, this poor queen, like, she's done a great job. She's made all these bees and ...

   30. ETErika Thompson19:01

       A lot of bees. A queen bee will lay up to 2,000 eggs per day. I mean, she's li, an egg-laying machine. That's all she does. She doesn't feed herself. She doesn't clean herself. She's the only bee that defecates in the, in the hive. All the other bees defecate outside the hive, and she has bees that clean up after her. She has-
6. 20:41 – 33:57

   Bee removals in real life: finding the queen, Nasonov signaling, and defensive colonies

   1. JRJoe Rogan20:41

      So I've seen videos of you where you've moved colonies of bees, and one of the things you do is you isolate the queen, and then you move the queen to a new place, and all the bees go with the queen.

   2. ETErika Thompson20:54

      Yes.

   3. JRJoe Rogan20:55

      So that's how you ... Like say if you went to someone's attic and you found a swarm of bees up there or what would that be, a colony of bees up there?

   4. ETErika Thompson21:01

      A colony of bees, yep.

   5. JRJoe Rogan21:03

      A colony of bees? So you would then, you have to figure out a way to get them out and then find the queen.

   6. ETErika Thompson21:08

      Yes.

   7. JRJoe Rogan21:08

      And how do you find the queen?

   8. ETErika Thompson21:11

      A lot of patience, a lot of practice. Um, you know, she-

   9. JRJoe Rogan21:13

      Do you have to take apart the combs?

   10. ETErika Thompson21:15

       Yep. So, you know, I just start working my way through the hive, and I'm always looking for the queen. Finding the queen in a bee removal is the key to a successful bee removal because obviously we've talked about the importance of the queen, but the colony really wants to be with their queen, and so they will naturally follow her. And once you find the queen and have control of the queen, you can control the colony. And so that's why it's so important for me as a beekeeper on, during these removals to always find the queen, and-

   11. JRJoe Rogan21:50

       So how much time will that take, say, if you're in someone's attic?

   12. ETErika Thompson21:53

       It's always different. It depends on the removal. Um, you know, if it's a really, really large hive, I mean, if it's five, eight feet of comb in the walls of someone's shed or in someone's, you know, backyard compost bin or whatnot, I mean, it can take a long time. Some of these bee removals will take hours. Sometimes I have to go back the next day. Um, but then sometimes you get lucky, and she's on, you know, one of the first few combs you pull up. And sh- she looks different. She's bigger than all the other bees. She has a different job, right? She's the only bee laying eggs in the colony, so that naturally looks a little different. She also has this kind of retinue that follows her around, this circle of bees that is, is guiding her and s, giving her these signals on what to do. So there's clues that the bees will give you on her location. Um, and, you know, if I'm moving bees from point A to point B and I have an ... I don't know where the queen is, typically where most of the bees, uh, congregate-

   13. JRJoe Rogan22:57

       Heard you're doing this.

   14. ETErika Thompson22:57

       Oh, my gosh.

   15. JRJoe Rogan22:57

       So here's, here's a video.

   16. ETErika Thompson23:00

       Wow, I never watch these again.

   17. JRJoe Rogan23:01

       And so that's like a little-

   18. ETErika Thompson23:02

       Oh.

   19. JRJoe Rogan23:02

       ... clip that you use. That's the queen in there. You've found the queen.

   20. ETErika Thompson23:07

       I tell you what, that moment feels so good. It's hard to j, capture it in a video. Oh, that's a f, a bee telling the other bees where to go. Um, she's feigning-

   21. JRJoe Rogan23:15

       Oh.

   22. ETErika Thompson23:15

       ... her Nasanov gland. So you can actually see the Nasanov gland in that video, in that little clip. So on the back of her abdomen ... Wow, thank you.

   23. JRJoe Rogan23:25

       (laughs) Jamie on the ball.

   24. ETErika Thompson23:27

       Um, yeah, the back of her abdomen, you can kind of see it. So see how she has all those little black stripes?

   25. JRJoe Rogan23:32

       Mm-hmm.

   26. ETErika Thompson23:32

       And then at the end, you can ... Yeah, that's, sh, it's a little gland that's exposed, and that's one of the pheromones, the ways they communicate. And she is signaling to all the other bees where to go, and she's letting them know ... You can see them start to move down and into the new hive. It was getting dark. I was wasting daylight there, but, um, and then they, they will eventually do the rest of the work for you, um.

   27. JRJoe Rogan23:56

       Now, you're doing this with no beekeeper suit, nothing on your hands, nothing?

   28. ETErika Thompson24:01

       Yeah, this was a really great, great colony of bees.

   29. JRJoe Rogan24:06

       Are there bad colonies of bees?

   30. ETErika Thompson24:09

       You know, there are certainly bees that can be-... more defensive, but-
7. 33:57 – 42:20

   Her path to beekeeping: bug-loving childhood to full-time beekeeper

   1. JRJoe Rogan33:57

      Wow. How did you get involved in this?

   2. ETErika Thompson34:00

      My whole life I've just loved bugs. I sorta came out of the box a bug lover and an animal lover, and, um, I was really lucky to have parents that encouraged and supported that as well. And, um, I spent a lot of nights and weekends and time in my backyard as a kid collecting bugs and putting them in jars and trying to keep them as pets, or trying to study and observe them. My childhood idols growing up were Dr. Jane Goodall and Dian Fossey and I-

   3. JRJoe Rogan34:30

      Hmm.

   4. ETErika Thompson34:30

      ... I wanted to be just like them, um, but, you know, as a seven year, eight year old I couldn't exactly go to the jungles of Africa to study primates, so I went in my backyard and I collected bugs. They were everywhere. They were easy to find and easy to pick up, and, um, my love of bugs just continued my entire life. So, over 10 years ago I took a beekeeping class and I started keeping a hive in my backyard in Central Austin, and, um, really just fell in love with honeybees and became fascinated by their world and being able to step inside of it. So, I started my beekeeping business when I still had a full-time job, and, um, I was doing bee work on nights, weekends, lunch breaks, but it was really all I wanted to do with my time. So-

   5. JRJoe Rogan35:21

      What was your other job?

   6. ETErika Thompson35:22

      I was a communications director for various nonprofit associations. Um, and I loved my job. It was a great job. I worked with amazing people, but it just wasn't bees. It wasn't what I wanted to do-

   7. JRJoe Rogan35:34

      Wow.

   8. ETErika Thompson35:34

      ... all, every day, and I didn't under- you know, it didn't feel right for me to, like, go and sit in an office. I wasn't that person. I wanted to be outside. So, um, so yeah, I started my business while, you know, I still had a full-time job, and, uh, in 2018 I quit my full-time job and became a full-time professional beekeeper.

   9. JRJoe Rogan35:52

      That's amazing. So do you have a formal education in bees?

   10. ETErika Thompson35:56

       I don't.

   11. JRJoe Rogan35:57

       So, w- did you learn this from books? Did you learn this from videos? Like, how did you learn this?

   12. ETErika Thompson36:03

       I mean, really the best way to learn something like this is experience, and that's how I've learned the most is just doing as much bee work as I can. Um, when I started my business, I didn't really know what my business was. I just wanted to be a beekeeper, and so it really started as organically as it could. You know, people would ask me for beekeeping services, so folks would say, "Can you keep bees on our property? We want bees but we don't want to be beekeepers ourselves," or, "Can you give us a private lesson? You know, you've been doing this far longer than we have. We're first year beekeepers." I got asked to teach beekeeping classes and eventually I got asked to do live bee removals, and...For me, that was just what I fell in love with as a beekeeper, was being able to go into a hive and see how bees live and work naturally without a human making decisions for them. You know, it allowed me to learn more about bees and I could see... I could see so much that I would never experience in the, you know, little boxes that we as beekeepers, um, keep bees in. So, you know, it, uh, really just a lot of experience and doing a lot of... a lot of bee removals and, you know, of course books as well. But, um, this is one of the things you can't really learn from a book. You just sort of have to get out there and do and, and see bees and see how they work together and... And I started small. I s- started not with, you know, hives that were... that had eight feet of comb and removing them from a backyard shed. I started with water meter boxes. So water meter boxes are those things everybody has in their front yard. You know, it's a... it's a box about a foot deep and it has that plastic lid with a small opening, and it's one of bees' favorite places to build. It's one of the most common calls I get as a beekeeper, is to remove bees from these boxes. And starting out, I thought, you know, it was the m- most controlled environment I could start with doing the removal process, because you just never know what you're getting into. But at least I knew this is always gonna be the size, right? The hive is never gonna be much larger. I won't get surprises like taking paneling off a wall and finding eight feet of comb, right? Um, and they were relatively small, which was easy for me, um, and easy for me to handle. But, you know, I- I just did as much of those as I could for as long as I could, and then eventually started to do more and more removals and, and larger ones and just a lot of experience.

   13. JRJoe Rogan38:39

       So all the information that you know about in terms of like pheromones and how they construct the hive and how they create a queen and all that stuff, that's all stuff you've gotten from books?

   14. ETErika Thompson38:50

       Books, online, beekeeping-

   15. JRJoe Rogan38:52

       Hmm.

   16. ETErika Thompson38:52

       ... conferences and events. I mean, talking to other beekeepers. Um, just, you know, I always like to say I'm an expert at my own experiences. You know, I'm not a bee biologist or I'm not an entomologist studying bees. I just really love bees and, you know, have been so fortunate that I get to live a life where I get to work alongside them every day, and I learn so much from them.

   17. JRJoe Rogan39:19

       It's so fascinating how different human beings are because that... I find bees interesting, but I couldn't imagine that being my favorite thing to do.

   18. ETErika Thompson39:26

       (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan39:27

       But with you, just the way you talk about it, you light up. It's so obvious that's... People are s-... We vary so much. It's so interesting to watch someone who is absolutely enthralled with something that just seems like, uh, most people would not be enthralled by.

   20. ETErika Thompson39:46

       Yes, I... You know, I get that a lot. I mean, I... When I do these bee removals, I meet a lot of people who are so happy to see me and they were just terrified of the bees-

   21. JRJoe Rogan39:54

       (laughs)

   22. ETErika Thompson39:54

       ... you know? And-

   23. JRJoe Rogan39:55

       Yeah.

   24. ETErika Thompson39:55

       ... that's an element that doe- doesn't always come through, um, like in the videos that you see me do with the bees and working with the bees is there's this other side that you're really helping people. I mean, when I go and remove bees from a place, it's like you're giving pe- these people back a sense of security in their own space. And that's a great feeling as well. You know? So there's... there's a lot of... I lo-... I mean, that's why I love doing this. There's a lot of different sides of it.

   25. JRJoe Rogan40:22

       Do you find i- it enjoyable to sort of educate these people w- whose homes have been invaded by bees too and maybe give them a sense of peace? Because a lot of people are terrified of bees. They see bees like-

   26. ETErika Thompson40:34

       Yes.

   27. JRJoe Rogan40:34

       ... "Oh," they just want to run away.

   28. ETErika Thompson40:35

       Sure.

   29. JRJoe Rogan40:35

       Whereas you come along and you're so calm and you're not like this gigantic imposing scary person. You're very sweet and calm and then you're there touching them with no gloves on. So then maybe people are like, "Oh, maybe I need to rethink bees."

   30. ETErika Thompson40:50

       Absolutely. You know, um, I will say that I'm really lucky most of the people I meet naturally they're on the side of bees because they called a beekeeper to remove the bees versus-
8. 42:20 – 50:50

   The meditative ‘mindset’ of working bees—and what beekeepers debate

   1. JRJoe Rogan42:20

      What is the... What is your mindset like? Why is it so enjoyable when it's just you alone with the bees and you're removing this hive from a shed or whereev- wherever it is and putting it into one of these things? Like what is this? What is your mindset? Are you just at peace? Are you just in the moment? Like what's going on there?

   2. ETErika Thompson42:42

      There is something incredibly meditative about being inside of a beehive and with a colony.... whatever you're thinking about beforehand, whatever was on your to-do list or whatever has been on your mind all day, the second you open that hive, it all melts away, and you have to be so focused on every movement you make when you're working alongside bees, not only for your safety, but for theirs as well. And that really just makes you... It forces you to be in the present. And it's hard to explain that to people who have a fear of bees and assume that it's chaotic inside of a hive, and it's so disorganized, and why would you want to be around these tens of thousands of stinging insects? But it's not like that at all most of the time. It's incredibly calm and orderly. All the bees have a job. And there's also a, a great sense of humility that comes with it, and just watching these creatures work and do all of this, uh, all of this amazing work within, within the beehive. And, you know, knowing that these tens of thousands of creatures are all working together for the good, good of the colony, um, it's just a wonderful experience, for me anyhow. But I can understand how people... It would terrify people.

   3. JRJoe Rogan44:10

      When you're doing this, do you feel like you are in some way communicating with these bees? Like, are you putting out energy saying like, "I'm here to help. I'm your friend. I'm not a danger"? Like, do you have a mindset or are you just in the moment completely? Like, how are you...

   4. ETErika Thompson44:30

      I think it's a mutual communication. You know, I'm trying to read their behavior, and they're probably trying to read mine as well to see if I'm a threat. But from the very first second that I meet the bees, I'm trying to figure out what they need and, you know, what their situation is like, and they're trying to read my behavior just like I'm trying to read theirs. It's no different than you reading, you know, your dog's behavior. They wag their tail, you know they're happy. They put their ears back, you know they're scared. The bees will send you signs and signals and communicate to you how they're feeling, you know. Of course, they'll start stinging you if they're not feeling well and if they are feeling defensive, but, you know, they'll... Before that they'll sort of ping you, and there's a frequency pitch that changes sometimes, you know, in a hive that's, uh, maybe a little bit more defensive. So-

   5. JRJoe Rogan45:18

      A frequency in terms of like the sound they make?

   6. ETErika Thompson45:19

      Like the sound, sure.

   7. JRJoe Rogan45:21

      Mm-hmm.

   8. ETErika Thompson45:21

      Um, and so it's... I think the communication goes back and forth, and I hope that they can pick up on my behavior as well, that I'm not there to harm them. I'm not ripping open their hive as quickly and as forcefully as possible, and I'm not... You know, I'm doing everything with a lot of care and precision, or as much as I can. And, um, I hope that they pick up on that too. I, I certainly think that they do.

   9. JRJoe Rogan45:45

      So, it's the movement, but is it also the mindset? Is it like a vibe that you're putting out? Are you like l- saying in your mind, "I'm your friend."

   10. ETErika Thompson45:55

       (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan45:55

       "I'm here to help out." Like, are you-

   12. ETErika Thompson45:57

       I'm probably not saying it in, in my mind. I'm probably talking to them.

   13. JRJoe Rogan45:59

       Oh, really?

   14. ETErika Thompson45:59

       So, (laughs) yes.

   15. JRJoe Rogan46:00

       You talk out loud to the bees?

   16. ETErika Thompson46:01

       Yes, all the time.

   17. JRJoe Rogan46:02

       Really?

   18. ETErika Thompson46:02

       Um, it's just me and them, you know? I mean, and you're really working alongside them. And I, I like to think that at some point during, during the removal process they realize that I'm offering them something better, you know, after I've opened their hive and removed half the wall or what have you. It's... They know that this new hive is where their food is, where their baby bees are, and it's just a better place for them. So I hope they know that I'm on their side. I certainly, you know, try to tell them that. Um, and yes, I talk to them. But I don't know. It's... I mean, it's a... It's just a wonderful experience, you know? And every bee removal is different.

   19. JRJoe Rogan46:41

       Well, at the very least they seem to accept it.

   20. ETErika Thompson46:44

       Yes, they do. I mean, they seem to not mind, you know, um, when I pick up their queen and move her into a new box, which you would think, you know, that w- maybe would anger them. But, you know, the colony all works together and it's that superorganism. So they, they, they all want to be together and they're all doing what's best for the good of the colony. And so I sometimes think that if I'm doing that as well, then, you know, it's, it's a lot easier to do my job, for sure.

   21. JRJoe Rogan47:11

       Now, as you've done this, have you become friends with other beekeepers, and do they have a similar mindset and similar experiences to the way you approach it?

   22. ETErika Thompson47:22

       I have met some wonderful beekeepers and have some wonderful beekeeping friends, and everybody has their own way of keeping bees. Um, it's very much a craft, you know? It takes a lot of skill, of course. I, I think it's an art form, especially the bee removal process. There's... It takes a lot of creativity, and everybody will do it in a different way and everybody has their own opinions about their bees or what's best for their bees. And the beekeeping community can be, you know, divisive, but, um, yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan47:55

       How so?

   24. ETErika Thompson47:56

       I... Just because everybody has a different opinion on what the best way is to keep bees, and that probably stems from a lack of understanding that we all don't know all the answers to all the questions, you know?

   25. JRJoe Rogan48:08

       So, what's like the major points of contention amongst the beekeeping community? Yeah.

   26. ETErika Thompson48:11

       Between the beekeeping community? Just different techniques for keeping bees, you know? Some folks, um, have different control methods for different pests and diseases. Some folks like to do it more naturally. There's just... There's a lot of different ways people keep bees all around the world, and I think everyone's doing it the best they can. But every- everybody has a different idea, you know, on how to keep bees, but also everybody has a different reason for keeping bees, and so they might have different management techniques for that.

   27. JRJoe Rogan48:43

       Do you use... Is it like, uh, the smoke? Is that like a point of contention? Like-

   28. ETErika Thompson48:48

       No, not at all.

   29. JRJoe Rogan48:48

       ... don't use too, too much smoke? Don't use any smoke?

   30. ETErika Thompson48:51

       No, the...... the ... Don't use too much smoke, but always use smoke. (laughs)
9. 50:50 – 1:06:37

   Going viral with bee removals: TikTok scale, recognition, and resisting reality TV

   1. JRJoe Rogan50:50

      When did you start putting all of this stuff on social media?

   2. ETErika Thompson50:56

      Um, I mean, I've been sharing stuff about bees for a long time on Instagram, but, um, I started to share more of the bee removal process in, I guess it was 2020.

   3. JRJoe Rogan51:10

      Well, I think it's probably when I found out about you. Um, but you ... Were you trying to educate people about it? Are you doing it 'cause it's fun? Like ...

   4. ETErika Thompson51:19

      You know, I was just sharing the work that bees and beekeepers do every day, and could have never expected so many people to see it or be interested in it. Um, but, you know, as soon as I started to kind of put these, put the bee removal process together in like the one-minute edited down format that these platforms, you know, would allow and, and kind of play to, people just really seemed to be interested in it, and which is great, 'cause it's a fascinating process. And, um, I mean, no one sitting here today is more shocked than me-

   5. JRJoe Rogan51:59

      (laughs)

   6. ETErika Thompson51:59

      ... than me, you know, to have, to have ... to put out a video and get, you know, 24 million views in 24 hours-

   7. JRJoe Rogan52:07

      Yeah.

   8. ETErika Thompson52:07

      ... is a r- I mean, it's an insane experience. So-

   9. JRJoe Rogan52:11

      Is that on TikTok, or what does that-

   10. ETErika Thompson52:13

       Yes.

   11. JRJoe Rogan52:13

       Yeah. TikTok is bizarre.

   12. ETErika Thompson52:15

       It's-

   13. JRJoe Rogan52:16

       The amount of views that you get on TikTok is very strange.

   14. ETErika Thompson52:18

       It's significant, I'll say.

   15. JRJoe Rogan52:21

       Yeah.

   16. ETErika Thompson52:21

       I mean, mind-blowing. And you know, you can see the numbers go up after you push that button, and it's ... I mean, the first time, you know, I had ... I started to post maybe in the spring of 2020 on TikTok, and by August, I had a video. I posted a video in August that received 24 million views in 24 hours.

   17. JRJoe Rogan52:44

       Wow.

   18. ETErika Thompson52:44

       And my life changed, I mean, with the push of a button, really. You know, not even overnight. It was ... I had emails from everybody that had a production company, it seemed like. (laughs) And you know, um, just having that many people see you is a mind-blowing experience, but then I ... What I thought was like the most viral someone could go, I thought that was it, you know, um, in March of 2021, about six months later, I posted another video and it got 50 million views in 24 hours.

   19. JRJoe Rogan53:14

       Wow.

   20. ETErika Thompson53:14

       And it was just unreal.

   21. JRJoe Rogan53:18

       That's crazy.

   22. ETErika Thompson53:18

       It's crazy.

   23. JRJoe Rogan53:19

       That's more than anybody who's ever seen Titanic. Like, I'm just guessing.

   24. ETErika Thompson53:23

       Is that true? (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan53:24

       I mean, how many times ... How many people have bought Titanic? I'm guessing.

   26. NANarrator53:27

       A lot.

   27. ETErika Thompson53:28

       It's no thing.

   28. JRJoe Rogan53:29

       I'm guessing.

   29. NANarrator53:29

       (laughs)

   30. ETErika Thompson53:29

       It's gotta be-
10. 1:06:37 – 1:08:32

    Why bees matter: pollination, habitat loss, pesticides, and industrial agriculture

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:06:37

       ... that, when you get 133 million downloads, it's not difficult to find advertisers, especially something that's so interesting, so non-controversial, educational, wholesome, everything's cool about it, it's really interesting, it's great for the environment. And I think it's very important that people understand, like, how important bees are to the ecosystem. If all bees died, all people die. We have to really understand that. Like, there is a gigantic system that's in place. And I'd like to hear you talk about that, because there is a crazy system in place with like how our food is made-

    2. ETErika Thompson1:07:12

       Yes.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:07:13

       ... how our plants are pollenized. It's all done through these magical little creatures that you're fascinated with.

    4. ETErika Thompson1:07:18

       It is. And I, one of the things about sharing my work with the world is that I've realized that people don't know-

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:07:23

       Right.

    6. ETErika Thompson1:07:23

       ... a lot about bees or how important they are.Bees pollinate one out of every three bites of food we eat, and it's not just, you know, the apple- apple or the almond that you've had today, or your cup of coffee. It's the beef that you're eating that grazed on alfalfa. Bees are responsible for that, and, you know, when our bee populations are healthy, that's a good sign for our planet because bees are pollinating... over 75% of- of plants need bees for pollination. And our world would look so different without honeybees and the over 20,000 species of bees that do so much work for our planet and, you know, there's a lot of other beekeepers out there like me trying to help bees and doing wonderful work for bees. But, um, I do feel like, you know, beekeeping is a really noble profession because you're helping these creatures that do so much work for us, and, you know, if- if we want our grocery shelves to look like they do now, and, um, and to have a diverse diet, we need to treat our bees better and make sure our bee populations are healthy.

11. 1:08:32 – 1:28:49

    Navigation and collective decision-making: magnetism, sun position, and the waggle dance

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:08:32

       I read something about cel- more than one thing, about cell phone signals interfering with the way bees communicate. Do you know what that is?

    2. ETErika Thompson1:08:42

       I- I have heard a little bit about that, or I've heard about that years ago. I haven't heard about that recently, and I- I don't know if there's any merit to that.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:08:50

       Oh, okay. Let's see if we can find something on that. 'Cause there was some confusion as to whether or not bees were behaving differently as cell phone use became, um, more widespread, and more towers were up, and y- I would just imagine that that signal, whatever that is that's in the air... obviously, we can't detect cell phone signals.

    4. ETErika Thompson1:09:16

       Right.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:09:16

       You have to look at your phone to see if you have a signal. But what- whatever they are able to do is obviously so different-

    6. ETErika Thompson1:09:23

       Yes.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:09:24

       ...than the kind of senses that we have. And I think the speculation was that... or maybe theory, was that there is something about these signals that is in- interfering with the way bees communicate.

    8. ETErika Thompson1:09:38

       There could be, but that's certainly not the biggest problem bees face, you know? (laughs)

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:09:42

       Right.

    10. ETErika Thompson1:09:42

        Um, so I- I don't think that... I don't think that's a challenge that bees are facing right now. I could be wrong, but, you know, it's not a challenge as a beekeeper I face where I see a problem with my bees and cell phone towers, I see a problem with my bees not having enough food, and with pesticides, and-

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:09:59

        Hmm.

    12. ETErika Thompson1:09:59

        ...you know, industrial agriculture, so, um-

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:10:02

        What is industrial agriculture doing to bees?

    14. ETErika Thompson1:10:05

        It's- It's killing our bees. It's, you know, we're putting these large mono crops, these... w- we're putting acres and acres of the same thing that need bees to pollinate. For example, almonds. Um, almonds are m- almost entirely dependent on bees for pollination, and so we would have no almonds if we didn't have bees, and we're shipping our bees across the country, you know, to- to pollinate the almond crops in California, and then maybe up to the apples in- in New York. And we're putting them in these areas where they only have one food source, which isn't healthy for them or for anybody. They only have it for a short period of time, so, you know, they can only collect food there for a little while, and there may or may not have pesticide sprayed on this food that the bees are collecting. But at the end of the day, bees weren't made to be shipped on... or bees shouldn't be shipped on semi-trucks across the country to- to pollinate these- these places where there's just one- one thing living, and we're forcing the bees to pollinate, you know, this one crop.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:11:04

        So that's how they do it.

    16. ETErika Thompson1:11:06

        That's-

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:11:06

        They- they bring in bees?

    18. ETErika Thompson1:11:08

        Y- you know, the way that most beekeepers earn a living is through commercial pollination services. Um, so we need bees for- for food, like almonds, and, um, you know, plants are pollinated one of two ways. They're self-pollinating or they're cross-pollinating, and they need some help to- to reproduce and to fertilize, and bees are the best pollinator our planet has. So, when bees go out and collect food for themselves, you know, they're- they're pollinating plants and making sure plants are reproducing. And without bees, we wouldn't have, y- you know, many, many foods. But it's not just us. It's so many creatures who rely on bees for their food system as well.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:11:54

        Hmm. So when a beehive, uh... when- when- when some beekeeper brings, like, say there's an almond plantation, and they bring these bees in, where are they getting these bees?

    20. ETErika Thompson1:12:07

        From, you know, commercial beekeepers who keep them most often in the south, well over winter the... they will over the win- overwinter the bees in the south where, you know, like right now, our bees can still go out and forage. But in colder climates, it's, you know... the bees will stay in the hive, so I have beekeeping friends in Colorado who don't see their bees for months on end because if it's about 55 degrees Fahrenheit or below, the bees won't leave the hive, and they're just clustering inside. So, you know, we'll have beekeepers from all around the country ship their bees and do this- this pollination circuit, and, you know, they'll come from all different areas. Texas, California will have some beekeepers. Florida is a big place for beekeepers.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:12:48

        And what are they feeding their bees? Like, how are they keeping their bees alive when they're doing this?

    22. ETErika Thompson1:12:53

        Well, they're sh- you know, they're pollinating the almonds, so that is food for the bees.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:12:55

        Once they get there.

    24. ETErika Thompson1:12:56

        Once they get there, but they're-

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:12:57

        But when they acquire them-

    26. ETErika Thompson1:12:59

        Sure.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:12:59

        ...in order to ship them, how are they doing that?

    28. ETErika Thompson1:13:01

        As beekeepers, we're supplementing food for the bees all the time because there simply-

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:13:04

        Ah.

    30. ETErika Thompson1:13:04

        ...isn't enough. I mean, that's one of the biggest challenges facing bees is habitat loss, and that extends. It's not just honeybees, but it's, you know, the over 20,000 species of bees that we share this planet with. They're all, you know, feeling the effects of not having enough food or not having a diverse enough diet. So, we will supplement the bees' feed with sugar water when needed, and it's-... trash. I mean, it's just like feeding your kids McDonald's every day.

Episode duration: 2:31:05