Joe Rogan Experience #1910 - Mark Laita

Narrator 0:00 (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music plays) Hello, Mark.

Mark Laita 0:13 Hey, Joe.

Joe Rogan 0:14 How do you do what you do and maintain any-

Mark Laita 0:19 Mental health?

Joe Rogan 0:20 Yeah.

Mark Laita 0:21 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:22 (laughs) Let's just tell everybody-

Mark Laita 0:23 Let's-

Joe Rogan 0:23 ... you, uh, you have the YouTube show, Soft White Underbelly, which, uh, I, I found a while back and I, I just watched one video and then I went down the rabbit hole. And now, today I binged a bunch of them preparing for this and poof. Dude, it's so sad and so heartbreaking and, um, you interview all kinds of people, addicts, uh, prostitutes, johns, uh, gang members, and, uh, why Soft White Underbelly? Why'd you come up with that name?

Mark Laita 0:57 Um, I, you know, I remember my dad when I was in the '60s, '70s, talking on the phone with, you know, I, I heard that ter- that term being used to, you know, it's, it's like a, an al- an analogy for the, the vulnerable part of, of whatever you're talking about. I don't, I don't hear that term anymore, but I remember it back then. And I always thought it was a cool name. Blue Oyster Cult used it as their original name before Blue Oyster Cult, um, so I just ... It was a fun name. Makes people wonder what the hell it's all about.

Joe Rogan 1:26 Well, it's very appropriate.

Mark Laita 1:28 Yeah, yeah, I think it's fitting for what I'm doing.

Joe Rogan 1:29 Completely. How did you get involved in interviewing all of these people that are sort of downcast from society?

Mark Laita 1:36 So I'm, uh, I've been an advertising photographer since I was 14 years old, or, or after high school really and went to college for it, but I was always into photography and then I got into advertising and I did that for decades and decades. Had a great career and then what happened is, you know, you do it... My advertising work was so slick and beautiful and perfect and everything's retouched so it's, it's better than life. And you do that for decades and you get burnt out and you, you just get fed up with the perfection and all the aspirational aspects of advertising and I just wanted something that was real. You know, I, I recognize that there are things going on in the world that weren't so perfect and I, I just felt like my life was out, out of balance because e- you know, like I didn't wanna grow old and have my kids say, you know, "What, what did your dad do?" "Oh, he, he shot advertising his whole life." I wanted to do something different and I've always done these side projects even when I was a teenager in Chicago. I, uh, I was always fascinated with the drunks on Madison Avenue on the west side. You see these guys

Mark Laita 2:38 sleeping on park benches and just with a paper bag and a bottle in their hands. It's like, what? It was such a, it's such a interesting lifestyle to me because I didn't grow up like that. I grew up, you know, in a pretty perfect household. Mom and dad, parents loved me, it was great, but I was fascinated with all that dark stuff and, uh, that continued throughout my career. I was always like doing portraits of people like that and, you know, I didn't really do much with it until about 1999 I started, uh, working, you know, while I was doing advertising I would sneak away whenever I had a hole in my schedule which wasn't often but I, you know, for 10, over nine or 10 years I went to each of the lower 48 states and started photographing everything that exists in the US, uh, cowboys in Wyoming, drunken Indians in New Mexico, ballerinas in New York City, repo men in Oklahoma, auto mechanics in Alabama, peda- uh, uh, pedophiles (laughs) in, uh, all over the country, um, polygamists in Utah, Am- the Amish in Pennsylvania. Just everything, like everything that kind of fits for... Oh, that's Pennsylvania, they have Amish there so I would pick that and I'd hunt it down and find it. So I got really good at finding these subcultures that we've all heard about but you didn't really know if, you know... Some of them are easier to find. Drug addicts are easy to find, um, but there's other subcultures that I've found that are, that are more difficult to find and certainly difficult to photograph and now it's really difficult to interview. So I did that book, came out in 2010, cre- it's called Created Equal and I was really proud of it. Put, you know, my heart and soul into it, but it, it didn't really... Like I would, I would sit at, at a table and somebody's looking at it and they would go, "Oh, what did he sound like? What did the cowboy sound like? What did he... How did he get like this? How did, how did he get this career? What was his childhood like?" You know, all these questions. And I didn't, honestly, didn't know it for each of these 200 portraits in that book and I realized if I'm gonna make this really stick the way I wanted it to, I'm gonna have to do it with, with an interview as a backstory. So it's a portrait and then I would just do these interviews that might just exist behind the, the portrait as you're looking at it and that's how I started. And you know, I had, I had... I always had studios like, like on Skid Row like while I was doing advertising in LA at my LA studio I'd had another studio down on Skid Row which was, you know, cheap and, you know, I would just sneak away there on, on s- slow days and just photograph all the cr- the, uh, the drug addicts, the, the prostitutes, the transgenders, the mental health,

Mark Laita 5:09 you know, the people that are off their rockers, everything, gang members and, uh, I loved doing it but I never really did anything with that until I started... Canon came out with a Canon 5D which is a cam- uh, a still camera that did video and I just was playing around. I do- I never shot video in my life and I'm like let me just put this thing on a tripod and interview somebody and there was this girl Caroline who was a, a heroin addict prostitute down on Skid Row and I was like, "Hey." You know, I got to know her and I said, "Hey, would you wanna just sit and tell me your life story?" And she goes, "Sure, I'll do it." So she sat down and did this and it was heartbreaking like Jesus Chri- I just hit a grand slam my first time at bat, like, like a really like horrifying story and she, uh... So I did that and I was like wow, that was, that was amazing. I started doing a few more and they were all interesting in their own way. Every single one was diff- you know, very different and interesting and I'm like, "May- maybe there's something here."And, uh, went through a divorce, went through, you know, my mom, uh, went through a lot of stuff. My mom died. Uh, went through a divorce. Uh, my advertising industry- you know, advertising industry changed a lot in th- in those years. Like, th- this was like f- seven years ago, seven, eight years ago. And I just, I gave up my studio and I just kind of like didn't know what I was doing with my life. And I, I had all these storage units for all my studio equipment and my furniture. I was building a house, so I had all my furniture in the house. Had like four or five different storage units around the city. I'm like, "Let me just consolidate all these into one big space and maybe I'll have room for a studio up front and I'll start doing those portraits and those interviews I was doing on Skid Row before and s- just see if I enjoy doing that." 'Cause I didn't know what I want to do with the rest of my life. You know, I was like, I wasn't doing advertising anymore and, uh, I didn't know what I was. You know, I just, I was just drifting and I started doing these and I just loved it. Just loved it. And I started doing them every day. And I've done it pretty much every day for over three years now.

Joe Rogan 7:07 What you're doing is almost the exact opposite of advertising.

Mark Laita 7:11 Almost the e- it, it's a reaction to that slick-

Joe Rogan 7:15 Yeah.

Mark Laita 7:15 ... aspiration. I, I, you know, I shot Apple for t- for 10, 12 years and made these products look amazing, right? They had to be perfect. And I'm like, "Life isn't perfect. Life is messy."

Joe Rogan 7:26 Hm.

Mark Laita 7:27 Life can be really messed up. And I just, I, I, I longed for that. So that's what this is. It's, it's a, and I, I learned, I got all these skills, all these chops of how to intera- how to find these people, how to interact with them, how to con- how to find them, how to connect with them, how to get their trust, uh, from doing Create Equal where I did that for 10 years and I was interacting with all kinds of people from Hell's Angels down to from pedophiles, everything, you name it. Everything that exists in the US I, I got. When I first started, I was really shy and r- this, this is gonna be really hard. I decided this was my project, this is what I'm gonna do.

Mark Laita 7:58 But when I first started, it was like, man, (laughs) this is, this is not my personality type to go u- up to strangers and, and tell them what I, you know, "I want to photograph you." That was so hard. But now I've gotten so good at it that it's, it's a breeze. You know, I've, I've, I got to a point, I remember early on, I was just like so nervous to do this, to th- to just walk up to a stranger in, in a casino in Las Vegas and say, "Hey, I think you're interesting. I'd like to photograph you." That was the first one I did. And then by the end, I was like, I remember I, I wanted to photograph the Hell's Angels, uh, the motorcycle c- gang up in, uh, Oakland is like their main headquarters. And, uh, I just flew up to Oakland. You know, you can't really arrange that. You can't call them up on the phone and say, "Hey, I want to do a f- I'm a photographer in LA, I want to photograph you guys." That's just not gonna happen. So I, uh, I just flew up there and I, uh, it was a morning and I, (laughs) I ring their buzzer at their headquarters in Oakland and, uh, no answer. It's like 9:30 in the morning. I ring it again. Nobody answers. I ring it a third time and somebody comes, uh, oh, this, this junkyard dog of a biker opens the door and says, "What the fuck do you want?" (laughs) And I'm like, w- I'm, uh, I start telling him. He just slams the door in my face. He goes, "Fuck off." He just sh- slams the door. Okay, that didn't go well. But I've, I've done this so much now that I'm so good at it that I knew to give him some time, allow him to say no. I'm not gonna force, I'm not gonna pressure him. Went across the street, there's a Mexican restaurant that was serving breakfast. I got breakfast for a bunch of guys and I brought it over and, uh, I ring it again. He opens the door and I had breakfast for them. And, uh, eventually they let me in and we chatted and I event- eventually photographed, uh, the, uh, the president, you know, uh, the head of that, uh, chapter, uh, Cisco Valderrama and Flash and, uh, this guy's name was, uh, Marvin. And it wa- it was a great portrait. I'm proud of it. You know, it was like, uh, that made that happen because of my ability to just go up to anybody, killers, anybody, and just walk up to them and say, "Hey, I'd like ... This is what I like to do."

Joe Rogan 10:02 Did you ever read Hunter Thompson's book on the Hell's Angels?

Mark Laita 10:05 No.

Joe Rogan 10:05 It's really good.

Mark Laita 10:06 I'll bet.

Joe Rogan 10:07 D- that was his breakthrough book. And, uh, he was embedded with the Hell's Angels and hung around with them for long periods of time.

Mark Laita 10:14 No, it's a hell of a lifestyle.

Joe Rogan 10:15 Yeah. And that's sort of where he invented that sort of Gonzo journalism-

Mark Laita 10:19 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 10:19 ... aspect of it.

Mark Laita 10:19 No, I lo- I love that kind of, um, uh, William Vollberg is another author that's kind of like that. I l- I love Bill Vol- Vollberg's work, um, where it's just like you, you immerse yourself into these really fucked up dangerous situations.

Joe Rogan 10:35 Yeah.

Mark Laita 10:36 And you come out with gold or you get killed or shot or knifed or whatever.

Joe Rogan 10:40 Mm-hmm. That is a fear of yours.

Mark Laita 10:41 For, for sure. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:42 Yeah.

Mark Laita 10:42 I've been robbed so many times on Skid Row. I've had, you know, I came around the corner once and there's a gun to my face and it's like, "Fuck."

Joe Rogan 10:49 But you still do it.

Mark Laita 10:50 Yeah, I still do it.

Joe Rogan 10:51 Uh, d- did you feel when you're doing adverti- uh, advertising is so strange, right? Because it doesn't bother me, you know, and I, I, I have this sort of relaxed attitude on certain things like, "Well, that's not gonna trick me." You know, some guy's talking about the hollow Earth. "Well, that's not gonna trick me. That doesn't bother me." But when you think about the overall impact of what it's doing, it's giving people ... it's sort of like the, the, w- part of the big problem that people have with social media is it creates these unrealistic expectations and then it also has people comparing their life to what they see in advertising.

Mark Laita 11:31 Yeah. Ad- advertising and social media are kind of following the same-

Joe Rogan 11:34 Yeah.

Mark Laita 11:34 ... pattern.

Joe Rogan 11:34 Well, this is the main concern with, uh, advertising of pharmaceutical drugs 'cause it's all people having the best time.

Mark Laita 11:41 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:41 Like at a picnic, uh, running through a wheat field, h- and like, "You ... This could be you. Why isn't this you right now?"

Mark Laita 11:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:48 "This could be you if you just do this thing or take this thing or buy this thing."

Mark Laita 11:51 That's the manipu- manipulation of advertising.

Joe Rogan 11:53 And what did that feel like when you were a part of that? Did you-

Mark Laita 11:58 W- I'm, I'm-

Joe Rogan 11:58 You were acutely aware of it.

Mark Laita 11:59 I'm part of it.

Joe Rogan 12:00 Yeah.

Mark Laita 12:00 I'm, I'm part of the, that process and I hated the feeling of that after a while. Initially it was great. When I first started doing Apple, I was so proud of myself.

Joe Rogan 12:08 Right.

Mark Laita 12:09 And, and I'm still proud of my career. Uh, I love what I did in advertising and I'm m- I'm still proud of that work, but-I have to admit, as I got older, it started feeling really, like, I'm tricking people.

Joe Rogan 12:22 Mm.

Mark Laita 12:24 I'm tricking people and I'm, I'm not cool with that. It just, it didn't sit well with me at the end of the day and I'm just like, "So that's how I made my money? That's, that's how I've ... That's how I spent my life on this planet?" A- and I just wanted to do something that mattered.

Joe Rogan 12:37 Do you think-

Mark Laita 12:38 And that-

Joe Rogan 12:38 ... that advertising should be regulated or do you think we should leave that up to people or educate people on the effects of it, the same way people are trying to educate people on the effects of social media and w- what it, what it does to peoples' mental health when you compare these unrealistic lives to yours?

Mark Laita 12:56 I mean, it, it comes down to greed. It's human greed, corporate greed. Th- th- they want what they want, and they're gonna get it by creating these ads that are just better than life, you know, just so amazing. Everything's ... Your, your life will be perfect if you drive this car, if you buy this pro- you know, this phone, this, uh, take this drug, whatever.

Joe Rogan 13:18 I even wonder if, in this day and age, that's necessary with what ... I feel like today more than ever, because of social media, because of, like, people that actually review things and talk about things on social media honestly, without, you know, bias and without being paid to do so, you can do stuff and sell stuff and it just has to be good.

Mark Laita 13:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 13:43 Like, look at Teslas, for instance. They don't even advertise.

Mark Laita 13:46 They don't.

Joe Rogan 13:47 And it's, like, the number one car in America.

Mark Laita 13:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:50 It's just 'cause it's great. It's that sim- ... Obviously-

Mark Laita 13:53 But there's a lot to th-

Joe Rogan 13:53 ... y- it's connected to Elon Musk, who's this en- enormous figure, but ...

Mark Laita 13:58 It's a much smarter way to market a, a, a product.

Joe Rogan 14:01 Yeah. It's not deceptive.

Mark Laita 14:02 Elon could come out with a running shoe or a ... anything.

Joe Rogan 14:08 Yeah.

Mark Laita 14:08 A drink, and people would drink it.

Joe Rogan 14:11 When you first started doing these videos, did you have to figure out a way to balance your own mental health with interviewing these people? Because I gotta tell you, like, I watched a bunch of videos today in the gym while I was working out and I felt like shit.

Mark Laita 14:28 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:29 (laughs) And I always feel good after I work out.

Mark Laita 14:30 W- well, it ... I know, it affects people in different ways.

Joe Rogan 14:32 Yeah.

Mark Laita 14:32 Some people make, like, "Oh my god. My problems are not s- so bad. My life is pretty great." I've, I've heard that many time ... I've heard that more often, but I get what you're saying 'cause, like, I'm immersed in it.

Joe Rogan 14:41 Yeah.

Mark Laita 14:41 Y- you know, what you see on my, on my YouTube channel is 1,200, maybe 1,300 videos. I've done over 5,000-

Joe Rogan 14:48 Whew.

Mark Laita 14:48 ... b- 'cause I ... Not, not everything I shoot ... Like with you, you're shooting ... You're doing interviews with, uh, Elon Musk and Dave Chappelle and, you know, Huberman and they're, and they're great. You know they're gonna great. They're b- ... You don't need to do e- eight or 10 in a day like I do.

Joe Rogan 15:01 Right.

Mark Laita 15:02 Like, I'll, I'll do six, seven, eight, nine, 10 in a day hoping to get one or two.

Joe Rogan 15:07 But even the ones that you have where the people can barely communicate, they, they're almost more disturbing.

Mark Laita 15:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 15:13 Like, I watched a, a couple today of homeless people-

Mark Laita 15:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:17 ... where, you know, there was this one woman. She d- was missing one of her toes and, you know, that woman.

Mark Laita 15:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:23 And, and she's ... Just the movement and th- the c- th- the mental health, th- the obvious signs that she's very troubled and probably on some drugs and it's just ...

Mark Laita 15:34 Yeah. It's s-

Joe Rogan 15:35 Do you have children?

Mark Laita 15:36 I do. I have two daughters, 19 and 22.

Joe Rogan 15:39 Yeah, so that, to me, was ... Like, the, the hearing the stories of how they were all abused sexually and physically when they were children and (sighs) and seeing what it leads to, to at least-

Mark Laita 15:53 Right. So I, I'm aware that these things go on.

Joe Rogan 15:56 Yeah.

Mark Laita 15:56 You know, I've been, I've been down on Skid Row for 12 years now, maybe 13 years, and so I, I know what's going o-

Joe Rogan 16:03 You live down there?

Mark Laita 16:04 No, no, no, no, no. I, I (laughs) I live in Pacific Palisades, which is, like, the exact opposite.

Joe Rogan 16:09 (laughs) Yes.

Mark Laita 16:10 I live in Bel Air basically, but then I go-

Joe Rogan 16:11 Yeah.

Mark Laita 16:11 ... down to the worst ... I go from the worst part of town to the best part of town.

Joe Rogan 16:14 Whew.

Mark Laita 16:15 Yeah. It's a big ... It, it's a drastic change from-

Joe Rogan 16:17 Yeah.

Mark Laita 16:17 ... from, from one to the other. Um, but even when I was doing this before I started Soft White Underbelly, I was aware that this sh- this crap is going on to these people when they were kids.

Joe Rogan 16:29 Yeah.

Mark Laita 16:30 And when I decided ... You know, I gave up advertising. I wanted to do something that was meaningful to me. I looked around. Like, that's a problem that needs to be addressed. And, you know, people say, "Oh, well your work's ex- exploitive. You're exploiting these poor drug addicts." Like, I understand there's an exploitive element to, to it. All photography has that, you know, element to it, but ... Let's say I never did these videos. Let's say we just ... Pretend they ne- ... Pretend these problems don't exist. It's all gonna continue and, and Caroline's kids are gonna get molested by the babysitter or by the uncle or by whoever and it's gonna ch- ... It'll repeat the pattern over and over and over. So I figured by putting out these ... You know, it's disguised as entertainment, but what it really is, is, is if you watch a dozen of them, you're gonna learn, like, "Fuck, we need to protect our kids. We need to watch our kids. We need to ..." You know, how many fathers were absent in th- in these kids' lives that I do? Like, like (laughs) like 1% of them had fathers that were in their lives.

Joe Rogan 17:30 Right.

Mark Laita 17:31 Like, wh- where are the dads? What are, what are they doing that's so important that they can't raise their own kid?

Joe Rogan 17:36 Well, they're probably fucked up too, which is the-

Mark Laita 17:39 Well, that's where it goes. That's-

Joe Rogan 17:39 ... the never-ending cycle.

Mark Laita 17:40 It's generation ... It's cycle after cycle.

Joe Rogan 17:42 Have you interviewed anyone and then come back years later and they straighten their life out?

Mark Laita 17:47 Yeah, yeah. That's happened.

Joe Rogan 17:48 Yeah?

Mark Laita 17:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:48 Ooh.

Mark Laita 17:49 (laughs) I've, I've done 5,000-

Joe Rogan 17:51 Right.

Mark Laita 17:51 ... and, and it's literally, like, f- four that I know of.

Joe Rogan 17:57 Oof. And what has that been like? Like, can you give me an-

Mark Laita 18:00 Yeah, I mean, they, th- th- they, um-

Joe Rogan 18:02 ... example of one?

Mark Laita 18:04 A- a- and even though they've done it, doesn't mean they didn't break down and relapse tomor- you know, today.

Joe Rogan 18:09 Right.

Mark Laita 18:10 That happens all the time.

Joe Rogan 18:11 Yeah.

Mark Laita 18:12 So just as they got clean doesn't mean they're gonna stay clean, but, um, the, the ones that I believe in the most, you know, 'cause some people told me they were clean, but I, I don't, I don't buy it.But the ones that I know are clean, they just, they just did it by themselves. They just holed themselves up and they figured out a way to wean themselves and change their routine and change their environment and eventually broke through. But I think you need that self-worth. Like, you, you and I have the self-worth to go, "You know, I deserve better. I deserve to drive a nice car. I deserve to live in a great house and a great city and have a great job. And I, I deserve all these things and have a great woman in my life and all these things." If you have the self-worth, you're gonna accept and, and build those things in your life. These people, especially the ones on Skid Row, the drug addicts, th- they, their self-worth is broken. It's broken. And they, they don't believe they deserve anything better than to live in a cardboard box or, or a tent on the sidewalk. In the rain, in the winter. And they're doing the drug just to escape the pain of what happened to them when they were seven years old with their dad or uncle or-

Joe Rogan 19:16 (sighs)

Mark Laita 19:17 ... brother or whoever.

Joe Rogan 19:18 Yeah.

Mark Laita 19:19 And it's like, you, you can't fix a childhood.

Joe Rogan 19:22 Le-

Mark Laita 19:22 How do you fix a childhood?

Joe Rogan 19:23 When you see a place like Skid Row and you see all these people that you've interviewed, d- do you try to formulate some way that these people can be helped? Like that we can-

Mark Laita 19:37 I used t-, I used to-

Joe Rogan 19:37 ... diminish this problem?

Mark Laita 19:38 Well, no, when I first really got serious, like three and a half years ago, is when I started really just ... I was down there every day doing eight, eight interviews a day. I would, um, see somebody who was like, "Oh my God, your, your life would be great if you just got clean." I, I was-

Joe Rogan 19:55 Right.

Mark Laita 19:55 ... naive. I was naive. And, uh, I started helping 'em and like, "We're gonna get you to rehab." And, you know, I spent so much money. Like (laughs) I've, I've wasted so much money. My own hard-earned money, I just like put towards somebody that had no intention of, of really ever doing anything.

Joe Rogan 20:12 Well, it seems like it has to come from the individual. It can't come-

Mark Laita 20:15 It has to. That's-

Joe Rogan 20:16 ... from ...

Mark Laita 20:16 That's what I've learned.

Joe Rogan 20:17 You can't help people by saying, "Hey-"

Mark Laita 20:19 No, no, no.

Joe Rogan 20:19 "... you gotta do this."

Mark Laita 20:20 No, I see all these comments on my videos, "Mark, you didn't help this person?" I, I, I can't change their self-worth. They di-

Joe Rogan 20:27 You'd have to be with them 24 hours a day.

Mark Laita 20:28 You'd have to be with them 24 hours a day. You'd have to be spending easy 150,000 at least a year to house them, to feed them, to transport them, to get 'em therapy, to d-, you know, all the drugs, all the mental health drugs, all the everything they're gonna need. Doctors, all that stuff. It's a lot of money for one person and it may not w-, may not even work.

Joe Rogan 20:49 Right.

Mark Laita 20:50 So, I'm, I'm, I got two kids of my own. I got my own life. I got bills of my own. I got ... I'm, I'm doing a YouTube channel and I'm shooting eight videos a day. Like, when am I gonna s- sit there and take somebody under my wing and save them?

Joe Rogan 21:01 Right.

Mark Laita 21:02 You know? These, (laughs) these people are on their phones, on their sofa, texting, you know, uh, uh, sending, uh, leaving a comment saying, "Mark, you didn't help this person?" I'm the busiest person I know. I'm the b- I, I haven't taken a day off s- in over three years. Christmas, birthday, everything. I work every single day. Either shooting or editing. And, uh, and these people are sitting on their phones telling me what to do.

Joe Rogan 21:23 Yeah.

Mark Laita 21:24 They, they, they can't get off their ass and maybe, you know, clear out their bank account to save somebody?

Joe Rogan 21:29 But even that probably wouldn't do it.

Mark Laita 21:31 And still wouldn't work.

Joe Rogan 21:33 What do you think could be done?

Mark Laita 21:36 (sighs) Well, I mean, it's, it's a, it's such a complicated problem. You, you look at homeless. You have y-, the, the homelessness problem. You have it a little bit here in Austin, but in, in LA it's really bad.

Joe Rogan 21:46 Let's explain Skid Row to people.

Mark Laita 21:47 Skid Row is a neighborhood. It's probably, I don't know how many square blocks, but maybe it's ... it goes from like roughly, 'cause it spreads out a lot and it's spread out since I've been there, but let's call it like from 4th or 5th Street to 8th Street. This is just east of Downtown LA. And Downtown LA is cool. It's nice.

Joe Rogan 22:12 Eh ...

Mark Laita 22:12 But just, just east of Downtown is-

Joe Rogan 22:13 Eh ...

Mark Laita 22:14 Oh, no, I know, I know, but it, but it-

Joe Rogan 22:16 Eh ...

Mark Laita 22:16 ... but it's, it looks like Austin basically.

Joe Rogan 22:17 It's ... I wouldn't recommend people visit.

Mark Laita 22:19 (laughs) No, no, you wouldn't want-

Joe Rogan 22:19 It's not a place-

Mark Laita 22:20 No, you wouldn't go to Down-

Joe Rogan 22:21 ... like if you wanna go to LA, you don't go d-, eh-

Mark Laita 22:22 No, the-

Joe Rogan 22:22 Every other town, you go downtown.

Mark Laita 22:24 Right, every, every other ... I'm from Chicago. Every ci-

Joe Rogan 22:26 Yeah, I was gonna say Chicago.

Mark Laita 22:27 You spend the whole ti-

Joe Rogan 22:27 But downtown, yeah, it's nice.

Mark Laita 22:28 When you go to visit Chicago, you spend the whole time downtown.

Joe Rogan 22:30 Yeah.

Mark Laita 22:30 In LA, you should not go downtown if you-

Joe Rogan 22:32 Yeah.

Mark Laita 22:32 ... if you're visiting.

Joe Rogan 22:32 That's what I'm saying.

Mark Laita 22:33 That's exactly right. Um, but Skid Row is this neighborhood just east of Downtown that is the-

Joe Rogan 22:41 Yeah, Jamie's got, um, an image of it.

Mark Laita 22:43 Yeah, there it is. So-

Joe Rogan 22:43 Let's, let's find some photos of it, 'cause it's, it's kind of an enormous swath of land that's been completely abandoned it seems like. The dr-

Mark Laita 22:53 But like, like this girl smoking right here?

Joe Rogan 22:54 Yeah.

Mark Laita 22:55 That goes on every block. The cops will roll by. Nobody's stopping her.

Joe Rogan 22:59 She's smoking meth.

Mark Laita 23:00 She's smoking, uh ...

Joe Rogan 23:01 Something.

Mark Laita 23:02 ... meth or crack or whatever. Fentanyl. Um-

Joe Rogan 23:04 Yeah. Let's-

Mark Laita 23:06 And they're, they're, they're living like that.

Joe Rogan 23:07 Let's find a video of it so you can see this, the scale of it 'cause it's pretty, it's pretty intense when you see people, uh, like w-, I found out about Skid Row when we were filming Fear Factor Downtown. We filmed a lot of episodes of Fear Factor Downtown.

Mark Laita 23:22 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 23:23 And, um, I just ... And this was early 2000s. And it was, uh, nothing like it is now. I'm sure now it's quite a bit more. But even back then, it was like, "How is this one area isolated?" Like, how is this one area just filled with homeless people and drug addicts and criminals? And, uh, I really didn't know until I watched this Netflix series on the Jerome Hotel and it was about that woman who died in, um, a water tank. Do you, are, are you aware of that story?

Mark Laita 23:56 (laughs) I don't, but I've heard everything.

Joe Rogan 23:57 It's a woman who got off her meds and it was, um, there was a video of her in an elevator and it looked like someone was following her and she was like looking out of the elevator and then the woman turned up missing. And her family went to look for her and what it turned out was, uh, she ... That's a crime scene-

Mark Laita 24:13 The Cecil Hotel.

Joe Rogan 24:13 ... ven-, the, I'm sorry. Did I say the Jerome?

Mark Laita 24:15 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:15 Cecil.

Mark Laita 24:15 Oh, Cecil.

Joe Rogan 24:15 Where's the Jerome?

Mark Laita 24:16 Mm-mm.

Joe Rogan 24:16 Is that down there too?

Mark Laita 24:17 I have no idea.

Joe Rogan 24:18 I might've made that up.

Mark Laita 24:18 I don't know the Jerome, but the Ce-

Joe Rogan 24:19 The Cecil.

Mark Laita 24:20 ... the Cecil's-

Joe Rogan 24:20 The Cecil Hotel.

Mark Laita 24:20 Cecil's notorious. The Cecil-

Joe Rogan 24:21 That's the one I meant.

Mark Laita 24:22 The Cecil is a hotel (laughs) ... I've heard so many stories about ... My, my favorite or the most horrifying-... is so many people used to get thrown off the roof of the Cecil Hotel that the little chicken restaurant on the corner used to have a, a jar where you could put your money in and place bets on what floor the person would be... have j- have been pushed out of.

Joe Rogan 24:45 Jesus Christ.

Mark Laita 24:46 Whether it was the roof, the thir- 13th floor, or the 12th floor.

Joe Rogan 24:49 How many?

Mark Laita 24:51 Oh, I, like, I, I've heard of like hundreds-

Joe Rogan 24:54 (laughs)

Mark Laita 24:54 ... I think. I mean, I'm exact- you know, stories get exaggerated-

Joe Rogan 24:57 (sighs)

Mark Laita 24:57 ... over the years, but, you know.

Joe Rogan 24:58 So this documentary, uh, was about this woman, and she had gotten off her medication. And at first, it was like a m- crime, murder mystery. And then as it goes on, you realize, "Oh, th- no, this lady had just, uh, escaped from her family and gone off her meds, and she was paranoid schizophrenic."

Mark Laita 25:14 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:14 And ...

Mark Laita 25:15 It's always a, a th- none of these stories are as simple as, "Oh, I just got shot," or, "I just got stabbed."

Joe Rogan 25:19 Yeah.

Mark Laita 25:20 There's mental health that's mixed in. I mean, the, the whole pro- like, y- you asked me what the problem is with, with all this. So you see homelessness. You see all these homeless people on the street in LA, or in San Francisco, or Seattle, or Portland, or Vancouver, or ... You see it in a lot of cities. I- it's really bad in LA and San Francisco, and the, the West Coast for some reason has a ton of it. So, oh, you just ... Like, what LA's doing, you put them up in housing. Problem solved, right? And we're done. (claps hands)

Joe Rogan 25:47 (laughs) Not really.

Mark Laita 25:48 No.

Joe Rogan 25:48 No.

Mark Laita 25:48 'Cause you peel back the layer, the first, the top layer of that, the homeless, underneath the homelessness is, uh, drug addiction. Pretty much 100% across the board. None of these ho- none of these people are down and out and just like, "Oh my God, I'm homeless." That doesn't happen. They're, they're all drug addicts. And even when they tell you they're clean, they're, they're still lying. So you peel back the drug addiction layer, and what are you gonna do? Get 'em, put 'em all in rehab, which is gonna be tremendously expensive, and it's not gonna work all the time. But that would be part of the solution, but it's not gonna be the solution. So you peel back the layer of drug addiction, you've got mental health. The- they all have mental health issues. And you can't just magically fix their mental health. You know, the d- the damage was done when they were little kids, when they were five, six, seven, eight years old.

Joe Rogan 26:28 Mm.

Mark Laita 26:29 With, with whether it's neglect or abuse, you know, physical abuse-

Joe Rogan 26:34 Yeah.

Mark Laita 26:34 ... sexual abuse, whatever. J- just terrible parenting.

Joe Rogan 26:38 Yeah.

Mark Laita 26:38 Terrible role models.

Joe Rogan 26:39 Yeah.

Mark Laita 26:39 Terrible ... And they don't learn this, you know ... Like, l- l- that's how you fix ... Let's say you got them off the streets. Let's say you, um, fix the drug addiction. You get them therapy for years, and you fix the mental health issues somewhat, but they still don't know how to do all the things that we all know how to do, like build trust in others, gain the trust of others, how to handle money, d- d- uh, delayed gratifica- uh, delayed gratification. They don't ... They have no concept of that. Everything is just like, "How do I make a quick buck right now?"

Joe Rogan 27:10 Yeah.

Mark Laita 27:11 That's the only thing they know. If, you know, if they have a job interview on Monday, like if I, if I had something like that or a meeting to go to, I would, I would know how to show up, and I'm gonna kick ass on Monday. These people don't know how to do anything like that. They might not ... They probably won't even show up. They don't know how to be on time. They don't know how to do anything in order to, like, advance their, their lives. They ... I think it's, it, it boils down to their self-worth is so broken that they don't believe they deserve anything better.

Joe Rogan 27:39 Yeah.

Mark Laita 27:40 So it's like i- if you don't believe you deserve anything better, you, you could be handed a million dollars. Here's a winning lottery ticket. Go cash it in, and you've got a million dollars. They're gonna fuck it up as fast as you can see it, you know, as, as fast as you can imagine.

Joe Rogan 27:53 Have you had any drug addicts or, um, like, sad stories like that in your own friendship circle?

Mark Laita 28:01 No.

Joe Rogan 28:01 No?

Mark Laita 28:02 No. No, like all my friends are clean as a whistle. I've, I've never smoked pot.

Joe Rogan 28:06 Really?

Mark Laita 28:07 Never smoked pot.

Joe Rogan 28:07 (smacks lips) Nothing, huh?

Mark Laita 28:09 Nothing.

Joe Rogan 28:09 A little alcohol every now and then?

Mark Laita 28:11 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:12 Yeah?

Mark Laita 28:12 I mean, I haven't lately, but you know, I used ... You know, I'm not a drinker. I'm not ... I don't have a problem with drinking.

Joe Rogan 28:17 How-

Mark Laita 28:17 You know, my da- my dad used to say to me (laughs) , he still does, he goes, "You don't drink, you don't smoke, you don't gamble, you don't chase women. What, what do you do? Everybody does something."

Joe Rogan 28:23 (laughs)

Mark Laita 28:24 And I'm like, and I'm like, "I don't know." Yeah, I don't know.

Joe Rogan 28:28 Well, it's a sign you were raised well maybe.

Mark Laita 28:30 I work, I worked- Yeah. No, I, I was raised really well. You know, my-

Joe Rogan 28:31 You don't need the escape.

Mark Laita 28:32 I mean, the, the way my mom raised me was like, I c- I can't imagine a better ... You know, I really think the problem ... And so you go, you start going back to peeling the layers back. You go back to, um ... Where, where did I leave it off? So you got the mental health problems. You peel back that layer, and then you got the broken family. You know, in a lot of these stories, Dad was absent, or Dad was in prison. Mom's on, on drugs. Sister's a ho. Brother was in a gang. What do you think she's gonna turn-

Joe Rogan 28:59 Stepfather was abusive.

Mark Laita 29:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:00 Yeah.

Mark Laita 29:01 And it's like-

Joe Rogan 29:01 Boyfriends were abusive.

Mark Laita 29:02 So the families are broken.

Joe Rogan 29:03 Yeah.

Mark Laita 29:03 So you peel back that layer, and, and why is the family broken? Well, they're l- they're growing up in a community that, that there's no opportunities. There's no education. There's no role models. There's no nothing. It's just like, "Figure out how to survive at 12 years old."

Joe Rogan 29:17 Yeah.

Mark Laita 29:18 And that's what, that's what they ... And they, they're looking around what everyone else is doing, and everyone else is a con artist or a hustler. I gotta figure out my hustle. And if you're an attractive female, you're gonna become a ho. And if you're a dude, you're gonna become a g- a drug dealer or a gang member, and you're gonna rob people or do whatever. And that's what happens. That's, those are extremes, but to some extent, that happens in a lot of communities.

Joe Rogan 29:37 Growing up in a good childhood, in a good family, and then e- being exposed to these people over and over and over again, what kind of an effect has that had on y- on you personally?

Mark Laita 29:51 Initially, I thought I was super resilient. Like, like I'm, I'm, I'm a s- I'm strong. Not, not physically strong, but I'm strong mentally. Like, I, I can handle anything. Advertising sho- you know, you know, advertising ev- you know, I was, I was playing around with big money and big jobs and big campaigns, and it was very, very stressful at times. But I handled it all. I was, I was cool with it. But when I started doing this project, I recognized that ... I, you know, I knew from Create Equal, the book I worked on, what it's like to deal with these kind of people 'cause I interacted with a lot of them. So I knew, I knew getting into it what I was, what I was ... I was gonna get robbed. I was gonna deal with hustlers and con artists and thieves and liars. I knew that.... but I dove in and, like, y- y- you know, th- th- that's, that's like a barrier to entry. Like, people who watch my channel, they go, "Oh, I wanna do what Mark's doing."

Joe Rogan 30:38 Oof.

Mark Laita 30:38 Good fucking luck. Like, every day I wanna quit.

Joe Rogan 30:41 Well, you're really good at it too. You, you have a very non-judgmental way of communicating with people that allows them to open up. It's very, it's very comforting.

Mark Laita 30:49 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:50 Like, you seem like a very nice guy, and when you talk to these people, you know, you just, you're very flat, you know?

Mark Laita 30:56 Yeah, yeah. I'm n- I'm n- Like, I can interview the Ku Klux Klan or a pimp or a pedophile.

Joe Rogan 31:02 Yeah.

Mark Laita 31:02 You know, I, I interviewed a, a guy named Marshall on my channel. He's an older, older guy. He's probably in his 70s. And he was having intercourse with his daughter from six until 14, and her, and her best friend, I think.

Joe Rogan 31:15 (sighs)

Mark Laita 31:16 And he eventually did prison time for it, but he's free now and he's living in this ... You know, he's living in, in Florida. And I interviewed him, and I just... I'm talking to him as if I'm talking to you right now. Like, I, I, I could be interviewing or, or interacting with... It's not about how I interview, it's how I interact with others.

Joe Rogan 31:30 And he was open about this?

Mark Laita 31:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:32 What-

Mark Laita 31:32 I've, I've interviewed a bunch of those guys.

Joe Rogan 31:33 Did, did he have shame?

Mark Laita 31:36 He didn't seem to, but he said some of the right words. But it, it wasn't like he broke down. Like, if, if I had done something like that, I'd be (laughs) ... I'd be crying, man.

Joe Rogan 31:45 Yeah.

Mark Laita 31:45 I, I wouldn't be... You couldn't-

Joe Rogan 31:47 D- Did that happen to him when he was younger?

Mark Laita 31:50 I asked him about that and he said, "I, I suspect something might have, and who knows if that's the truth or what..." I don't know. Probably did.

Joe Rogan 31:56 Hmm.

Mark Laita 31:57 He di- he didn't recall anything, but he suspected that something happened.

Joe Rogan 32:00 But you do see-

Mark Laita 32:01 So, so-

Joe Rogan 32:01 P- Go ahead.

Mark Laita 32:02 Yeah. But, but my point is that whether I'm interviewing the Queen of England or a homeless drug addict on Skid Row, I treat them the exact same way. Nothing in my behavior would change, whether I'm interviewing a, a, a, a pedophile that's having-

Joe Rogan 32:15 Yeah.

Mark Laita 32:15 ... sex with his daughter or, or the President.

Joe Rogan 32:18 Yeah. Well, it comes across, and it, it... You have a very good way of getting these people to relax-

Mark Laita 32:24 Yeah, so-

Joe Rogan 32:24 ... and, and communicate.

Mark Laita 32:25 I, I, I realized this. That's... I... When I s- Before I started this project, I knew that... 'Cause I saw it, like, d- during my advertising career. You, you, you deal with all kinds of people. And I, I saw very... Over, over the course of my life, I've been around now long enough to see that a lot of people just love to open up with me and tell me sh- (laughs) tell me shit they shouldn't be telling me.

Joe Rogan 32:46 Yeah.

Mark Laita 32:46 I'm a stranger. You just met me 20 minutes ago, but you're like... You're telling me all this pers- Like, I... There's something about my personality that makes people just relax and trust me and just tell me all kinds of stuff.

Joe Rogan 32:58 Yeah.

Mark Laita 32:58 I don't even know what it is. I'm not, I'm not judgmental, I know that. Like, like, even the pedophiles, I, like, I don't, I don't condone what, what he did. I don't approve of it in any way. I think it's horrifying. But, but my job right then is not to condemn him and say, "You're, you're so fucked up."

Joe Rogan 33:14 Right.

Mark Laita 33:15 It's just like, "Let me just hear your story, 'cause I'll bet you there's something we can learn from it. There's something that we could understand better that maybe we can apply to figure out how to prevent this in the future."

Joe Rogan 33:26 Do you think that's possible? Like, with all the interviews that you've done and this overwhelming number of fucked-up people that you've interacted with-

Mark Laita 33:34 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:36 How does... Like, Skid Row has grown considerably just since I've been there.

Mark Laita 33:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:41 Like, when, when I first went there was the early 2000s. It's much, much bigger now. It's a much bigger problem.

Mark Laita 33:46 It's all over the city.

Joe Rogan 33:47 Yeah. How does that genie get put back in the bottle? I mean, how does one ever-

Mark Laita 33:52 Well, that, th- That's why my ch- My channel is not an intervention-type show-

Joe Rogan 33:56 Right.

Mark Laita 33:56 ... where I'm trying to fix everybody and patch them up-

Joe Rogan 33:57 Of course.

Mark Laita 33:58 ... and put them back into the real world. I can't do that. I'm one person. Um, I bel- I believe the solution is to, to show people what, what's... I'm, I'm, I'm p- putting these videos out there, so you can s- so everyone can see this is not... This is how this happens.

Joe Rogan 34:15 Right.

Mark Laita 34:16 Let's not do this anymore. Let's figure out another solution, perhaps, like, if, if dads stayed in the family and the, the, the, the parenting was, like, something that would benefit the kid and not cause them trauma.

Joe Rogan 34:32 Right.

Mark Laita 34:33 That would be great.

Joe Rogan 34:33 But the odds of that happening from one of your videos are very small.

Mark Laita 34:36 Very small.

Joe Rogan 34:37 So, does it feel futile sometimes?

Mark Laita 34:40 Oh, yeah, for sure. For sure. But I'm, I'm the most po- You know, you... It's, it's ironic that I'm doing this really, really dark project, 'cause I'm the most positive, hopeful person you'll ever meet. I'm like a Polly-

Joe Rogan 34:49 Still?

Mark Laita 34:50 Yeah, I'm, I'm a Pollyanna. I don't think that'll ever change.

Joe Rogan 34:52 And that hasn't had any effect on your own personal relationships, the way you view human beings?

Mark Laita 34:59 Uh, ye- I'm a- I'm aware of how often people are con artists and hustlers and how dishonest people can be.

Joe Rogan 35:04 Mm.

Mark Laita 35:04 'Cause I never encountered that (laughs) to the extent that I do now. Whereas I... When I go down to Skid Row, it's, it's like a diff- Uh, it's a different world. And literally everybody is trying to get my wallet, trying to get my... Trying to get whatever I've got.

Joe Rogan 35:19 Right. Camera equipment.

Mark Laita 35:20 You name it.

Joe Rogan 35:21 Yeah.

Mark Laita 35:22 Everything. And it's like, to be surrounded by that many hustlers and con artists and thieves and... It wears on you. And just recently, I, I, I exercise a lot, so every morning I'm working out for, like, an hour and a half, two hours. And it never wore on me. You know, I don't get sore. I, you know, I'm, I'm in great shape. Just in the last three to four months, I'm like, "Goddamn, I'm sore. What the fuck is going on?" Like, I, you know, I... I'm not doing anything different, I'm not eating anything different. I'm like, "What, what is going on that my body is just hurting?" And I suspect what it is, it's the mental toll after three and a half years of doing this.

Joe Rogan 35:59 Hmm.

Mark Laita 36:01 It's finally catching up.

Joe Rogan 36:02 I would imagine. I mean, I, I think it's-

Mark Laita 36:04 Yeah, I, I heard, uh-

Joe Rogan 36:04 ... escapable.

Mark Laita 36:05 ... Gabor Mate say on your show.

Joe Rogan 36:06 Yes.

Mark Laita 36:06 He said. It's, uh... Was it... I think it was on your show. He said, uh, that whatever happens to you mentally manifests physically.

Joe Rogan 36:15 Yeah.

Mark Laita 36:15 And it's like, it makes perfect sense. But, I mean, mentally, it hasn't really made me crazy. I'm not, I'm not... If I'm hanging out with my friends we have nothing to do with this world that I'm interviewing, the relationship's like it always was. You know, I just spent Thanksgiving with my ex-wife and kids and my best friend, and, and it was just like old times. It's like 20 years ago. Nothing changed. But...I think physically, mentally, like, (laughs) somehow it's affecting me now.

Joe Rogan 36:42 I, I don't know how it could not.

Mark Laita 36:43 Well, I mean-

Joe Rogan 36:44 Do you wonder how long you can keep doing this for?

Mark Laita 36:45 Well, I, I don't really wanna ... Like, how many drug addict interviews does the world need?

Joe Rogan 36:49 Right.

Mark Laita 36:49 I don't think we need any more.

Joe Rogan 36:50 Right.

Mark Laita 36:51 If you wanna watch some, there's probably 500 on my channel.

Joe Rogan 36:55 Right.

Mark Laita 36:55 You can get all you need. So, I think enough's enough. I'll, I'll f- probably phase out of that. I'm already starting to do that.

Joe Rogan 37:02 What are you gonna do now?

Mark Laita 37:03 Just, just more the ... Like, like yesterday, I interviewed a guy. You know, like, the mental health issues are interesting, sexual fetishes are interesting. Sex workers are, are not as traumatic as their ... Not, they're not as pathetic and traumatic as the, uh, the drug addict stories.

Joe Rogan 37:18 Yeah, the most positive one I saw from you today was a guy who had a foot fetish.

Mark Laita 37:21 Yeah, yeah. Some of them are lighter.

Joe Rogan 37:23 It was kinda funny.

Mark Laita 37:23 But I interviewed a guy here yesterday in Austin, um, who was a ... He was an oil field worker down in Odessa, but he moved further north to, uh ... He wanted to be a sky, uh, skydiving instructor. Young kid, 20 ... I think he's 28, I think? And he was, you know, he was doing his, like, 25th jump, I think he said. And (sniffs) two of his chutes got tangled up. You know, you have, you have a backup chute?

Joe Rogan 37:48 Mm-hmm.

Mark Laita 37:49 First one was, didn't, didn't open up correctly, so he did the second one, or I think they both opened up at the same time, and, and they got tangled up. Held him for a while, and then he, he, he fell 4,000 feet-

Joe Rogan 38:02 (exhales)

Mark Laita 38:02 ... hit a cornfield-

Joe Rogan 38:03 (exhales)

Mark Laita 38:04 ... and survived. (laughs) So he survived.

Joe Rogan 38:06 Well, the, the parachute slowed him down a little? Is that what happened?

Mark Laita 38:09 He doesn't remember 'cause he blacked out.

Joe Rogan 38:11 Oh my God.

Mark Laita 38:12 He, he blacked out, and he hit the ground, broke his, everything on the right side of his body is just ... You know, but, but he's alive.

Joe Rogan 38:20 And he still wants to jump?

Mark Laita 38:22 Yeah. (laughs) He said he still would ... I asked him at the end. I go, "D- d- ... Is, is, is skydive ... Do you regret skydiving?" He said, "No, I'd like to still do it right now. They won't let me."

Joe Rogan 38:29 My friend Brian, uh, his dad worked with this lady who was a skydiver, and she was always trying to get him to go skydiving. "Let's go skydiving. Let's go skydiving." And then one day, he went to the office, and she wasn't there.

Mark Laita 38:41 Hm.

Joe Rogan 38:41 And he found out that she died skydiving.

Mark Laita 38:44 I mean, to me, it's such a senseless way to die.

Joe Rogan 38:46 It's a crazy thing to do.

Mark Laita 38:48 No, I mean, he, he, he talked about how the, the adrenaline-

Joe Rogan 38:51 Yeah.

Mark Laita 38:53 Uh, he became addicted to the, the adrenaline rush.

Joe Rogan 38:56 Yeah.

Mark Laita 38:56 That's, that's his ... That was his ... He says, "Not a drug addiction. It's not a sex addiction. It's a, it's a adrenaline addiction."

Joe Rogan 39:03 Yeah.

Mark Laita 39:05 So, so stories like that are what I'm looking to do, just ... Not, not that. Th- that's pretty-

Joe Rogan 39:09 How did you find this guy?

Mark Laita 39:10 He emailed me. See, I get people emailing me.

Joe Rogan 39:12 Oh.

Mark Laita 39:12 I get, I get hundreds of emails a day-

Joe Rogan 39:14 Right.

Mark Laita 39:14 ... from people with-

Joe Rogan 39:14 Do you go through them yourself?

Mark Laita 39:16 Well, I just hired somebody to help me do that.

Joe Rogan 39:18 Hmm.

Mark Laita 39:19 Um, but-

Joe Rogan 39:22 So, you're trying to move away from all the addicts and-

Mark Laita 39:24 I'm trying to move away from just skid row drug addicts. It's like-

Joe Rogan 39:26 Yeah.

Mark Laita 39:26 ... we don't need any more.

Joe Rogan 39:28 Right.

Mark Laita 39:28 It gets stale after a while.

Joe Rogan 39:29 Yeah.

Mark Laita 39:29 I mean, I'll, I'll do some once in a while. I mean, some of these people are, are magnificent speakers.

Joe Rogan 39:33 Hm.

Mark Laita 39:34 They're fascinating to listen to. Some of them. I've, I've found so many just miraculous people down there. There, there's great people down there. I mean, there's not like they're ... They're all a bunch of drug-addicted losers. Some of these people are just like you and me. They just happened to get caught up in some quicksand that they just cannot get out of. It's so sad to listen to some of these stories when you see that's a, that's a great person-

Joe Rogan 39:55 Yeah.

Mark Laita 39:55 ... that's ... They're, they're stuck in quicksand, and you can't pull them out, even if you want to.

Joe Rogan 40:01 Yeah.

Mark Laita 40:01 If you had all the money in the world, you could, you couldn't pull them out.

Joe Rogan 40:04 When I was 23, uh-

Mark Laita 40:05 You're watching them drown.

Joe Rogan 40:06 I moved to New York, and I started hanging out at this pool hall, and, uh, I met a lot of drug addicts. And I had known a few people with drug problems from my hometown, a few people with drinking problems that couldn't stop drinking, but I'd never been, like, really close to someone who had, like, a legitimate drug problem. And, uh, I had a friend named Johnny, and he had a crack problem. And, uh, he was a great guy, a really intelligent guy. Could play musical instruments, could do complex math in his head. Like, you could say ... You could have a calculator, and you could say, like, "500 times 50 minus 30 divided by 3," and he could give you the number.

Mark Laita 40:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:46 It was amazing. And you could do, you could do it with a calculator in front of him, and he would be as fast as the calculator.

Mark Laita 40:52 Wow.

Joe Rogan 40:52 He was a brilliant, brilliant guy, and he was a pool hustler. And, uh, I, I met him when he was homeless, and he was, you know, sleeping in these 24-hour pool halls, or he would get a, you know, a bed in these flop houses, and he was just addicted to drugs. And he, you know, he had mental health problems, and he would self-medicate. And, uh, I would ... You know, I drove him to get drugs on multiple occasions, and I tried to get him to get off of them, and ... And he would be on this rollercoaster ride where he would smoke crack, and then he would need to come down, so he would get alcohol, and he would go and drink these 40 ounces of Olde English and, and just try to, like, bring himself down from whatever the fuck he was on.

Mark Laita 41:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:37 And then I moved out here. He came out to visit me once, and, uh, I thought we were just gonna hang out and go places and play pool, but he was coming out to try to kick heroin. And, uh, when he came out, he just stayed in the bedroom for like a week. He was just all fucked up. He was just sick for a week. And then finally at the end of the week, he came out of it, and, you know, he hadn't had any heroin in his system in a week, and he was starting to come clean and feel better, and that was the last time I saw him. And then the, the next time I talked to him ... I, I think I saw him one time after that, but, you know, he had kinda resumed his ... I had moved to Hollywood, and I was on a television show, and we were still friends. But he had kinda resumed his life of being homeless and, and drug addiction, and then I got a call from another friend that he died.

Mark Laita 42:25 Hm.

Joe Rogan 42:26 And, uh, that was around ... A little bit after 2000, and it was ... It was so ... It was such a helpless feeling because I knew him as a human, and he was so funny, and he was so smart and so interesting.

Mark Laita 42:39 No, some of the greatest minds-

Joe Rogan 42:40 Yes.

Mark Laita 42:40 ... greatest ... The most charismatic, most interesting people ever-

Joe Rogan 42:44 Yeah.

Mark Laita 42:44 ... super intelligent and talented people-... are living on the streets-

Joe Rogan 42:48 Yeah.

Mark Laita 42:48 ... addicted to drugs.

Joe Rogan 42:49 Yeah.

Mark Laita 42:49 Because, uh, like, it go- it almost goes hand-in-hand. You get these great minds that are so creative, and they're also so self-destructive.

Joe Rogan 42:58 Yeah, I don't know why those two things go together, but so oftentimes, creativity goes along with drug addiction.

Mark Laita 43:05 Look at all the dead people in your lobby, all those pictures on the wall.

Joe Rogan 43:07 Yes, yes, yeah.

Mark Laita 43:09 They all died at 27.

Joe Rogan 43:10 All these mugshots-

Mark Laita 43:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:10 ... of the rock stars and stuff. Yeah. It's, um ... It's very confusing when you don't have that problem, when you're like, "Why don't you just do this?"

Mark Laita 43:21 Right.

Joe Rogan 43:21 "I would just do ..." And at the time when I met him, like now, uh, I like to smoke pot. I occasionally do mushrooms. I ... You know, I don't fuck with anything that's dangerous, you know? But, uh, back then, I didn't do anything. So for me, it was very strange to be like clean and sober, and trying to like ... I was like focused on my life.

Mark Laita 43:44 You, you're just not prep- you're not prepared because you don't have the knowledge of w- what he'll do for that drug.

Joe Rogan 43:50 Also, in my mind, the people that did that were losers and idiots.

Mark Laita 43:55 (laughs) Right.

Joe Rogan 43:55 And now here's this guy who's clearly brilliant-

Mark Laita 43:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:58 ... and a beautiful person, ah, was one of my favorite human beings. He was my best friend.

Mark Laita 44:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:03 And he was homeless. And it was, it was so strange for me to have grown up with, uh, a nice family in a nice place, things weren't bad, you know, middle class. Everything was nice. And then for me to be around a person like that who, you know, spent his time trying to rob people in pool games, pretending that he couldn't play.

Mark Laita 44:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:27 He would ... It was like an art form for him. He would just pretend he was terrible. And he was, he was an overweight guy, so he looked like a bumbling loser. And, you know, he would wind up getting a bunch of money from people and then he would spend it on drugs.

Mark Laita 44:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:40 And it was very ... It was such a helpless feeling to watch someone who you loved and cared about, who just couldn't stop. They just couldn't get their life in a ... And they kept sabotaging their life. Like no matter what happened, like whatever his, his sense of self-worth, whatever the thing was inside of him, he just couldn't help himself. He just couldn't stop that. He would get off of it for a little while, decide he was gonna clean up and then dive right back into it.

Mark Laita 45:11 Yeah. It's so heartbreaking to watch.

Joe Rogan 45:13 And I- that was ... He was the closest that I'd ever been to a person that had ... Everyone else that I knew that had problems was like my friend's cousin or this guy that I worked with, or ... They weren't people that I was really close with. And with him, we spent so much time together. And to watch him just im- just could not escape whatever the b- the gravity, the magnetic pull, the, the addiction, the thing, to just like constantly trying to get fucked up and, and escape. And-

Mark Laita 45:44 Yeah. Usually they were trying to escape something that happened in their childhood or some-

Joe Rogan 45:47 Something.

Mark Laita 45:48 ... some lack of love, yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:50 Yeah, something. Well, there's mental health in his, um, family too.

Mark Laita 45:53 Yeah. That's a big part.

Joe Rogan 45:54 And I, I suspect, you know, there's a lot of these people that are schizophrenic or they have these issues and they have children and it's genetically transferred.

Mark Laita 46:01 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 46:02 There's ... Yeah.

Mark Laita 46:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:02 And so I think there's nature, there's nurture. There's a lot of things that are-

Mark Laita 46:06 Yeah. It's not, not just like, "Oh, you-"

Joe Rogan 46:08 Right.

Mark Laita 46:08 ... "you were molested when you were six, so that's why you're a drug addict." It's, it's more complex than that, I think.

Joe Rogan 46:13 Have you met any of these people that have gone through any sort of psychedelic therapy? Like-

Mark Laita 46:18 No.

Joe Rogan 46:18 ... Gabor Mate is a big-

Mark Laita 46:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:20 Have you?

Mark Laita 46:20 I've heard about it, but I've not encountered anyone who's tried that and done that.

Joe Rogan 46:24 It's not really available to these people.

Mark Laita 46:26 No, not on Skid Row.

Joe Rogan 46:27 Yeah. And when you're ... When-

Mark Laita 46:31 You gotta, you gotta have the motivation-

Joe Rogan 46:32 Yeah.

Mark Laita 46:32 ... first off to wanna get clean and use that as a technique to do it. And I, I, I'm, I'm hopeful that somebody, some doctor somewhere, I think University of Chicago is doing something with, uh, skin grafts that, that help with drug addiction. But-

Joe Rogan 46:45 Skin grafts?

Mark Laita 46:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:46 How so?

Mark Laita 46:47 I don't, I don't know all the details, but, you know, it's just like they're doing, uh, studies right now, I think. But I've, I'm hopeful that somebody's gonna discover something that will cure that drive to, to fix.

Joe Rogan 47:00 How does skin grafts work?

Mark Laita 47:02 I don't know. It'll, it'll come on the news if it's successful.

Joe Rogan 47:03 See if you can find what ... Yeah, Jamie's on that.

Mark Laita 47:05 U- University of Chicago.

Joe Rogan 47:07 Skin grafts to cure drug addiction. That's a ... (gasps) This, it is so fas- how fucking smart some people are-

Mark Laita 47:14 Sci- science, science is amazing.

Joe Rogan 47:16 ... that they just find some way around it. CRISPR-modified skin grafts to treat addiction. The skin cells are then reimplanted to the patient through a skin graft that acts as a so-called bioengine, producing these molecules throughout the life of the graft. In pre-clinical studies, the engineered skin grafts protected against drug addiction and overdose in animal models. Whoa.

Mark Laita 47:37 Yeah, I think they're doing human studies.

Joe Rogan 47:38 So it's modified skin grafts. Interesting. Th- you know, and then there's a ... Here it is. Um, it's Chicago genetically altered skin grafts hold promise as addiction treatment. The treatment has been shown to work in mice, and the researchers hope to begin human trials next year. If it proves itself there, be a valuable addition to a growing but still inadequate arsenal of addiction treatments. I mean, it's one of the biggest problems we have in our culture.

Mark Laita 48:06 Oh, it's ... I mean, look at our country. It's like, it's horrifying. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:09 Right.

Mark Laita 48:09 You come to LA-

Joe Rogan 48:10 Yeah.

Mark Laita 48:11 ... it's just so embarrassing.

Joe Rogan 48:12 Well, Austin too. Austin's cleaned it up quite a bit, but there's still some spots and there's plenty of homeless people that are, you know, on 6th Street-

Mark Laita 48:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:20 ... and down that area. It's, it's really, really fucking sad.

Mark Laita 48:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:25 Because, uh, also like people define themselves by their lowest moment often. And when you have been a person that sleeps on the street, it's ... That lack of self-worth, this identifying yourself as a complete and total failure, it's very diffilt- difficult to escape that, especially when you compare yourself to these people that, you know, they show up for work at their tech job-

Mark Laita 48:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:49 ... and they have this normal existence and they look-

Mark Laita 48:50 And they're all looking down on you and-

Joe Rogan 48:52 Yes.

Mark Laita 48:52 ... treating you with dis- disrespect.

Joe Rogan 48:54 Right.

Mark Laita 48:54 And you're living in the streets. It's cold, it's rainy-

Joe Rogan 48:56 Yes.

Mark Laita 48:56 ... it's whatever. You're obviously worthless.

Joe Rogan 48:58 Yes.

Mark Laita 48:59 There's nobody that's reinforcing the fact that you have any self, any worth at all.

Joe Rogan 49:03 Right.

Mark Laita 49:04 ... it's just gonna take you down further.

Joe Rogan 49:05 And it's probably come from your childhood of being treated as worthless and-

Mark Laita 49:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:10 ... abused, and-

Mark Laita 49:11 Yeah. But you, you asked me, like, h- how I can go down to Skid Row and do this. I've done it every day for over three years. I think the fact that I, I am not tempted by these things. Like, you could put crack, fentanyl, and crystal meth right here, and I, they could, they would sit here for three weeks and I wouldn't even touch them.

Joe Rogan 49:26 What about four weeks?

Mark Laita 49:27 Four weeks is when I give in.

Joe Rogan 49:29 (laughs)

Mark Laita 49:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:29 I just kid.

Mark Laita 49:30 I d- they, they'll all be gone in-

Joe Rogan 49:31 That's fine.

Mark Laita 49:32 ... the fourth week is the-

Joe Rogan 49:32 My fear about all those things, like I've never tried cocaine, I've never tried amphetamines, and one of the reason why is, uh, like, it seems like people love them. You know, that's, that's part of the problem, is I think the, uh, the thrill of whatever it is that those things-

Mark Laita 49:46 I mean-

Joe Rogan 49:46 ... give people.

Mark Laita 49:46 ... th- I think the reason, one of my, uh, one of the reasons my channel is so popular is 'cause there are a hell of a lot of people who are using some of these drugs and being functional in the real world.

Joe Rogan 49:54 I think that's true, but I also think it's just fascinating. I mean, I don't use those things and I'm fascinated by your channel.

Mark Laita 50:01 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 50:01 I mean, it's just, the human condition is very fascinating to people because we recognize all these elements in ourselves, maybe to a lesser degree, or maybe, you know, maybe you only have an addiction to pornography, or maybe you only have an addiction to gambling, but you see a person who's hooked on meth-

Mark Laita 50:18 They're all the same.

Joe Rogan 50:19 ... and it's kind of, there's, there's parallels.

Mark Laita 50:21 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 50:22 Yeah.

Mark Laita 50:23 No, you can, you can, I've, I've ta- I, there was one addict in, uh, a, a gambler who turned into a heroin addict.

Joe Rogan 50:28 Wow.

Mark Laita 50:28 He, he was a big-time gambler, big-time, in New York City.

Joe Rogan 50:31 Yeah.

Mark Laita 50:32 I forget his name. Um, I interviewed him this summer. And he, uh, he switched his gambling addiction to a heroin addiction. (laughs) He's like-

Joe Rogan 50:40 Whew, the gambling one's wild, and that's-

Mark Laita 50:42 Yeah, gambling is fascinating to me.

Joe Rogan 50:44 That's another one that I encountered when I was in the pool halls, people that were just absolutely in, just captured by gambling.

Mark Laita 50:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:52 And I never thought of gambling as being an addiction. I thought of gambling as being just a, a weird weakness that people do to escape their life and they just get into it. But then I saw the actual, like, chemical response these people have to winning and losing and chasing money, and this, this, this constant ci- it be- it becomes their whole life, is trying to win a bet and trying to play, and trying to recover-

Mark Laita 51:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:18 ... from a bad bet, and then trying to avoid people they owe money to.

Mark Laita 51:22 There's so many addictions out there.

Joe Rogan 51:24 Ooh, there's so many.

Mark Laita 51:24 Whether it's sex or shopping or gambling-

Joe Rogan 51:27 Mm-hmm.

Mark Laita 51:27 ... or eating or-

Joe Rogan 51:28 Yeah.

Mark Laita 51:28 ... laziness or-

Joe Rogan 51:30 Yeah, procrastination.

Mark Laita 51:31 ... hair- heroin, drinking.

Joe Rogan 51:32 Yeah. Even exercise, which is a great addiction.

Mark Laita 51:34 That's my addiction, but the-

Joe Rogan 51:35 Yeah.

Mark Laita 51:35 ... you know-

Joe Rogan 51:35 That's a good one.

Mark Laita 51:36 ... it's not killing me.

Joe Rogan 51:37 I don't think there's anything wrong with that one. That one seems to actually improve the quality of your life, but it has c- characteristics-

Mark Laita 51:43 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:44 ... of impulsiveness.

Mark Laita 51:45 Yeah, when I go to Gold's Gym every morning at 5:30, I'll bet you more than half of the people that are there, it's the same crew every morning, we all know each other.

Joe Rogan 51:52 Mm-hmm.

Mark Laita 51:53 I'll bet you half of them are former addicts.

Joe Rogan 51:55 Really?

Mark Laita 51:56 Of some sort.

Joe Rogan 51:57 Well, that's a lot of, um, people that get into, like, running, marathon runners-

Mark Laita 52:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:02 ... and triathletes and ultra-runners. They, they substitute this very positive addiction, the addiction to, like, overcoming-

Mark Laita 52:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:10 ... and, and just b- pushing your body.

Mark Laita 52:12 I mean, hu- humans are wound up.

Joe Rogan 52:13 Yeah.

Mark Laita 52:14 I, I know I am. And it's like you, you know, I, I, like, I'm never gonna run a marathon. It's not, it's not my thing. But you see people who are running marathons, I'm just like, "What? Why?"

Joe Rogan 52:23 Right, why?

Mark Laita 52:23 Why would you run 26 miles? Your, your, everything's gonna hurt after that.

Joe Rogan 52:26 Yeah.

Mark Laita 52:27 Um, but that, that's, that's the, we have this drive to do something extreme, it seems.

Joe Rogan 52:35 Mm-hmm.

Mark Laita 52:35 Call it self-destruction, I don't know what you wanna call it, self-s- self-sabotage maybe, but so many of them are former alcoholics.

Joe Rogan 52:43 Mm-hmm.

Mark Laita 52:43 And they put that aside and they found this new obsession. You can't just, you can't just stop drinking and be like, "I'm cool now. I'm, I don't drink anymore."

Joe Rogan 52:50 Right.

Mark Laita 52:50 (laughs) It's like, uh, you need to find something to replace that.

Joe Rogan 52:53 Yeah. Yeah, and that's what people, uh, they, they, they realize that eventually. I mean, I, I know so many people that went to Alcoholics Anonymous and then they became hooked on coffee and cigarettes.

Mark Laita 53:02 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 53:02 And the, the coffee and cigarettes, they said, "This is okay," 'cause it's-

Mark Laita 53:05 Yeah, well, that's not as bad.

Joe Rogan 53:06 ... it's not killing me as quickly and it's not forcing me to lose jobs and I can function in society-

Mark Laita 53:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:12 ... with this. And then, you know-

Mark Laita 53:14 But m- my, my mind has opened tremendously from when I started this. Like, I, I, I really consider when I started it, maybe, you know, I kind of started and I, I've had three studios down on Skid Row, but the, the first one I had for three years and I gave it up. Had to, had to mess up my life with the divorce and other stuff. And then I had another one and, and g- gave rid- got rid of that one. But the third one I've had now for almost four years. Um, but I had a friend of mine who realized my channel is what I'm doing now, and she goes, she, she's known me for a long time and she goes, "I remember driving with you through LA, we were going to a restaurant, and you saw some homeless guy begging on the street corner, hassling you for money, and you said under your breath, 'Just get a job.'" (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:51 Ooh, boy. Isn't that crazy? Yeah.

Mark Laita 53:54 "Yeah, get a job."

Joe Rogan 53:54 Do you want some coffee?

Mark Laita 53:55 No, I'm good. Thank you.

Joe Rogan 53:56 That used to be me.

Mark Laita 53:57 Yeah, no, I, I think it's a mo- it's, mm, a lot of us.

Joe Rogan 54:00 Yeah.

Mark Laita 54:00 I s- I still say it. Sometimes these guys come at me and they just, every day of the year, they're coming at me for f- free handouts.

Joe Rogan 54:06 Yeah.

Mark Laita 54:07 I mean, I give away, I hate to tell you how much money I give out. Every single day of the year, I'm giving between two and 3,000.

Joe Rogan 54:15 Really?

Mark Laita 54:16 Just giving out money.

Joe Rogan 54:17 Wow.

Mark Laita 54:17 Not like fucking Santa Claus, but like-

Joe Rogan 54:19 I know what you're saying.

Mark Laita 54:19 ... but, like, sometimes it's paying interviewees, sometimes it's paying the person who brought me the interviewee, sometimes it's the people who keep it quiet outside my studio door, sometimes it's, um... You know, I, I'm, I'm a square white dude. I go into South Central, the f- to, you know, I interview a lot of the prostitutes on Figueroa Street, which is not Skid Row, it's, it's South Central LA, very different neighborhood, but, but equally dangerous. Probably more dangerous, in fact. Um, I used to go down there and, like, I'm worried about getting killed. People get killed there every day. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:50 Yeah.

Mark Laita 54:50 You know, those g- gangs are thick.

Joe Rogan 54:52 Yeah.

Mark Laita 54:52 And they see a white guy, I'm either a cop, I'm either an undercover cop or I'm a trick.

Joe Rogan 54:57 Right.

Mark Laita 54:58 And if I'm a trick, that means you can rob me.

Joe Rogan 55:00 Right.

Mark Laita 55:00 It's just like open season. Just come ge- come, I got a wallet full of money that I'm looking to spend on a girl, but they're gonna hustle me or con me or rob me.

Joe Rogan 55:07 Right.

Mark Laita 55:08 And the way that I can continue to do this th- almost three and a half years now-... and, and, and, you know, do it fairly safely is by spreading so much goodwill. Like, I'm generous with these people I interview, and I'm generous with the pimps, and I'm generous with the, uh, you know, the, the gangs that control the neighborhoods, or whatever I have to do in order to go down there safely and not get hassled.

Joe Rogan 55:31 Yeah.

Mark Laita 55:32 So, I've, I've ... And especially on Skid Row, I've, I've handed out so much over the years that it's like, it's just ... I'm like (laughs) ... I, I won't tell you what they call me, but it, but it's a positive thing, um, because I, because I'm like Santa Claus down there.

Joe Rogan 55:47 Yeah. Whoo. Yeah, you got to get out of this. (laughs) You can't keep doing this.

Mark Laita 55:54 No, no, no, I, I think-

Joe Rogan 55:54 I can ...

Mark Laita 55:55 The, the, I mean, the human struggle is fascinating.

Joe Rogan 55:58 Yes.

Mark Laita 55:58 There's not, it's not just drug addicts. Part of the reason I'm just doing drug addicts is 'cause I'm in LA and Skid Row is right here. If I don't think about it, I'll just go to Skid Row and I'll get some interviews.

Joe Rogan 56:07 Yeah.

Mark Laita 56:07 So now, I'm making a s- a, a serious effort to not do that.

Joe Rogan 56:11 Have you thought about escaping LA?

Mark Laita 56:13 Oh, yeah. I've, I've been to ot- I've been all over the country. You know, for Create Equal, I went to each of the lower 48 states. So I mean, I just came back from New Orleans.

Joe Rogan 56:19 What is Create, the book?

Mark Laita 56:21 That's the book I did-

Joe Rogan 56:21 Yeah.

Mark Laita 56:22 ... of, of American portraits. It, it was really the template for Soft White Underbelly. It's out of print now, so don't look for it. It's really hard to find. I think the last time I saw it, it was like $1,000, a used copy. But maybe somebody will do a reprint of it one day, 'cause God ... I, I get, I get emails every day of the year, people wanting to buy that book. If it came out tomorrow, (laughs) it would sell out.

Joe Rogan 56:39 Yeah.

Mark Laita 56:40 Some publisher should do it. Um, but I've, I've, I've been to New Orleans, I've been to Tampa several times, I've been to Kentucky and West Virginia many times.

Joe Rogan 56:50 The Appalachias?

Mark Laita 56:51 The Appalachia's amazing, yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:52 Coal miners?

Mark Laita 56:53 Coal miners and just hill- I love hillbillies. I-

Joe Rogan 56:55 Did you ever see the wild and wonderful Whites of West Virginia?

Mark Laita 56:57 Oh, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:59 Yeah.

Mark Laita 56:59 I, I, I interviewed Mamie White.

Joe Rogan 57:00 Did you really?

Mark Laita 57:00 Yeah, Jessica's bro- uh, sister.

Joe Rogan 57:02 Wow.

Mark Laita 57:02 Yeah, she's, she's a trip.

Joe Rogan 57:04 Boy, that whole family's a trip.

Mark Laita 57:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:06 Yeah. Oh, that's right.

Mark Laita 57:08 This, this is c-

Joe Rogan 57:08 I saw that series.

Mark Laita 57:09 This is Create Equal, where the, it's ... They're all diptychs. They're all pairs of images. So I've got a fur trapper and a woman on the Upper East Side of New York with her fur coat.

Joe Rogan 57:17 Wow.

Mark Laita 57:17 And th- they're not meant to be point ... You know, they're, they're just juxtapositions of interesting-

Joe Rogan 57:22 The lady with this little dog she's holding up. Oh, my goodness. Wow. Wow.

Mark Laita 57:30 Find the, uh, pl- the polygamist and the po- uh, The Polygamists and the Pimp. That's my favorite. There's the Klan.

Joe Rogan 57:42 So-

Mark Laita 57:42 Right, right there, top right. Oh, no, right there, that one. (laughs) These are polygamists in Utah on the left and, uh, a, a Detroit pimp and his girls.

Joe Rogan 57:55 What is it like interviewing pimps?

Mark Laita 57:57 They're, they're very braggadocious. They're very full of themselves. That you really won't get the truth. You really won't get ... Like, a lot of ... A lot of the people I interview are y- ... They break down, and they tell me the honest truth of what they're feeling and what they experienced as kids. These guys are all focused on, "I wanna look very cool." So, so they're kinda-

Joe Rogan 58:17 Yeah.

Mark Laita 58:18 ... very focused on their image.

Joe Rogan 58:20 Right, and how they're coming across.

Mark Laita 58:21 On how they're coming across, yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:22 Did you ever watch any of those documentaries on pimps, like Pimps Up, Hoos Down?

Mark Laita 58:25 Oh, yeah. (laughs) Yeah. I know all those guys. I went to Kenny Red's birthday party.

Joe Rogan 58:27 Did you really?

Mark Laita 58:28 Yeah. They're ... I'm, like, part of the clan.

Joe Rogan 58:30 Jesus, what was that like?

Mark Laita 58:32 I mean, they're cool with me. They love me 'cause I, you know, I, I treat them nicely, and they ... I'm like part of the family now. I'm this square White guy that's, like, friends with all the pimps.

Joe Rogan 58:41 (laughs)

Mark Laita 58:41 Yeah, I, I knew them from Chicago. I knew Bishop Don Magic Juan from Chicago.

Joe Rogan 58:44 Did you really?

Mark Laita 58:44 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:45 Wow.

Mark Laita 58:45 I used to see him at the-

Joe Rogan 58:46 He's probably the most famous pimp ever.

Mark Laita 58:48 He's the most famous pimp ever. Yeah, I ... Well, pr- probably the most famous, 'cause he's been in movies with, uh, um, Snoop.

Joe Rogan 58:55 Yeah.

Mark Laita 58:55 But, uh, Fillmore S- uh, uh, Fillmore Slim?

Joe Rogan 59:00 Yeah.

Mark Laita 59:01 Is that ... Yeah. Fillmore Slim, I interviewed. I've, I've done f- almost all of the, the really big name ones. But they're, uh ... I, I'm just fascinated by that lifestyle. Not the, not the new da- New Age pimps. Most of the New Age pimps are just gang members that are ... They found a new hustle-

Joe Rogan 59:15 Mm-hmm.

Mark Laita 59:15 ... and, and they're wearing, like, jeans and T-shirts. But the old school pimps from the '70s and '80s that are just dressed to kill and driving these custom Cadillacs or Lincolns-

Joe Rogan 59:24 Yeah.

Mark Laita 59:24 ... or, or Rolls-Royces, and they're all about the show.

Joe Rogan 59:28 Yeah.

Mark Laita 59:28 And they've got, they've got three girls, five girls in fur coats and, you know. The girls were sexy. They dressed well. The, the dudes were out of this world. Yeah, I went to the, the Player's Ball down in Atlanta-

Joe Rogan 59:38 Oh, boy.

Mark Laita 59:38 ... a couple years ago.

Joe Rogan 59:40 What is that like?

Mark Laita 59:42 It's, it's a lot of people showing off, is what it is.

Joe Rogan 59:44 Yeah.

Mark Laita 59:44 You know, it's not my scene.

Joe Rogan 59:45 But that's the culture.

Mark Laita 59:46 That's the culture. Yeah, you gotta-

Joe Rogan 59:48 Yeah.

Mark Laita 59:48 ... understand. I mean, what people don't understand, what, what, what White people don't understand about that whole subculture, they could ... you know, they, they love to hate pimps. We all hate pimps. We all ... No one wants to see a woman taken advantage of. Nobody wants that. But (laughs) ex- except maybe some pimps. But, but what they don't understand is these guys ... The, the women that they are managing is, this, this, this will get a lot of negative comments on your YouTube, but, um, the, the, the, the women are th- they're just trying to survive, and they figured out this is a way that I can make money, but they don't know how to do it well. They don't know how to manage their money. If they have money, they spend it. It's all gone. And they end up broke every night, and they're just like they're f- they're spinning their wheels, going nowhere. So a pimp will step in and like, "Let me handle your money. You give me all your money, and I'm gonna take care of you. We're gonna save some for your future, and I'm gonna keep some of it, and we're gonna live in style, and you're gonna work for me. You're gonna be one of my stable." So he, he, he provides some benefits and security and guidance, but when they break up, it's rare that the girl gets anything. (laughs) So ...

Joe Rogan 1:01:01 And it's always a horrible ending.

Mark Laita 1:01:02 It's usually a horrible ending, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:04 Yeah.

Mark Laita 1:01:04 When, when the pimp goes to jail sometimes ... But the girls never end up with a story where they're like, "Oh, yeah, and then I got my money, and I, I went off to college."

Joe Rogan 1:01:10 Right.

Mark Laita 1:01:10 That d- that never happens.

Joe Rogan 1:01:11 Yeah.

Mark Laita 1:01:12 But, but the pimp does.... provide a lifestyle for the time when she is doing that, that is better than what she was doing without him.

Joe Rogan 1:01:20 And you, you've interviewed people that have been open about murdering people too.

Mark Laita 1:01:24 Yeah. I've interviewed a lot of people that have done that. You know, I, I, I'll interview people. I mean, uh, w- ... I could do a whole YouTube channel on what happens after the (laughs) interviews that I do.

Joe Rogan 1:01:33 Really?

Mark Laita 1:01:33 Oh, yeah, there's a lot of-

Joe Rogan 1:01:34 So a lot of people get in trouble?

Mark Laita 1:01:35 No, no, no. They haven't g- ... No, nobody's ever gotten in trouble.

Joe Rogan 1:01:37 Really?

Mark Laita 1:01:37 The cops have never come after anybody.

Joe Rogan 1:01:39 Really?

Mark Laita 1:01:39 I've d- I've done all these interviews, and the cops have never approached me about anyone I've interviewed.

Joe Rogan 1:01:43 Isn't that kinda crazy?

Mark Laita 1:01:44 It's crazy to me. But I think, you know, I, I know the cops watch 'cause they- they'll roll by and say, "Hey, man, who are you posting today?" So they, they watch all the time.

Joe Rogan 1:01:50 Yeah.

Mark Laita 1:01:50 I think the cops enjoy watching because the people that they're arresting are always lying to them.

Joe Rogan 1:01:55 Mm-hmm.

Mark Laita 1:01:56 They're never telling the truth, you know, "Oh, yeah, I was robbing that liquor store," and I'm like, "Yeah, I'm sorry. I was guilty."

Joe Rogan 1:02:00 Right.

Mark Laita 1:02:00 They're, they're never getting that. But when I interviews people, it's like, "Yeah, I robbed a liquor store, and I, you know, I got away with it. And I did this, and I, you know, robbed a jewelry store, and I shot the guard in the shoulder, and I got away with it, you know?" (laughs) Like, they're getting to hear the story told a very, very different way than the way they hear it when they book somebody.

Joe Rogan 1:02:18 Do you interview cops as well?

Mark Laita 1:02:19 I would love to, but, uh, um, I've only interviewed a couple of retired cops. And those ... Th- they're great stories.

Joe Rogan 1:02:26 Yeah.

Mark Laita 1:02:26 Great storytellers and great stories. My, perhaps my favorite video on my channel is Mike Dowd, who's a ...

Joe Rogan 1:02:31 Yes. I know Mike. I've had him on the podcast.

Mark Laita 1:02:32 Mike's the best.

Joe Rogan 1:02:33 That documentary.

Mark Laita 1:02:35 Fuck.

Joe Rogan 1:02:36 Yeah. The sev- what is it, the 7-5?

Mark Laita 1:02:38 7-5.

Joe Rogan 1:02:39 Yeah, is an amazing documentary, and it's just-

Mark Laita 1:02:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:42 ... all about this young, idealistic cop who gets ...

Mark Laita 1:02:47 Tell me that's not a, a movie that's screaming to be made.

Joe Rogan 1:02:50 Yeah. I mean, well, the documentary is fantastic.

Mark Laita 1:02:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:02:52 But, yeah, an actual movie about it. He just got indoctrinated-

Mark Laita 1:02:56 It's, like, Serpico.

Joe Rogan 1:02:56 ... into the world of corruption, right, from the beginning.

Mark Laita 1:02:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:59 He wa- he witnessed a murder.

Mark Laita 1:03:00 Nobody-

Joe Rogan 1:03:01 He was told to shut the fuck up.

Mark Laita 1:03:02 The o- when, when he came to my studio, he, he approached me and asked me if I'd be interested in doing the interview. And I said, "Yeah, sure. I'd, I'd love to." And we were talking as he was driving up from Orange County to me. He, he lives, I think, in New York and Florida, but he was in Orange County for something, so he was driving up. We're talking on the phone, and I'm listening to the way he talks. I'm like, "Mike, you, you could ..." I mean, this is the way I'd love my videos to go. Like, you're a great conversationalist. You're, you're, you're probably the best conversationalist I've ever heard, and that's why you're so successful, one of the re- one of the reasons you're so successful. But I'm not. I'm just, I'm just a photographer, and all I'm doing with these interviews is trying to give- provide a little backstory that my photographs can't provide. So when Mike was driving up, he's, he's talking to me on the phone, and I'm like, "He's such a great speaker, and he, he's " I was like, "I love listening to him, even when he's just talking about what time he's gonna be there." The, hi- his voice is ... And the way he talks is great, so New York. And I said, "Mike, let me run something by you." And this is what I love to do. I wish every video on my channel was like this. I said, "Could you tell- could you do this whole talk where you tell your entire story without me saying a single word?" He goes, "Oh, yeah, no problem. I can do that." And I'm like, "Let's try it." So he came in, and he did the exact ... I didn't make a single noise. I said thank you at the very end, and that was it. And that's the way I love ... Those are my best interviews.

Joe Rogan 1:04:16 Hmm.

Mark Laita 1:04:17 Where I don't say a word.

Joe Rogan 1:04:18 Well, he's a perfect candidate for that.

Mark Laita 1:04:19 He's, he's, he's the best.

Joe Rogan 1:04:20 He has so many stories.

Mark Laita 1:04:20 And I've had, I've had some, even drug addicts to do it, and I've had other people do it. And very often what happens is I'll, I'll ask them ... My typical questions are like, "Where are you from? What was your family like?" And sometimes they just take the ball and run with it.

Joe Rogan 1:04:32 Yeah.

Mark Laita 1:04:32 And then they do the whole thing on their own, and they don't say another word.

Joe Rogan 1:04:34 Right.

Mark Laita 1:04:34 So that's almost the same thing. And that's the way I love it. I, I'm not looking to have a conversation like you and I are having right now.

Joe Rogan 1:04:40 Right.

Mark Laita 1:04:40 I'm not good at that anyway.

Joe Rogan 1:04:41 Right.

Mark Laita 1:04:41 That's, that's not my strength. My strength is the photograph.

Joe Rogan 1:04:44 The reason why I asked you about cops is I feel about cops the w- the same way I'm, I'm feeling about you, but even to more an extreme. That they're exposed to things they cannot unsee, and the pressure and the stress of that-

Mark Laita 1:04:58 It's unbelievable.

Joe Rogan 1:04:59 ... is so, so overwhelming. And also, they're thought of as the enemy, and they're not appreciated. And the risks that they take are, are not taken into consideration-

Mark Laita 1:05:07 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:05:08 ... and the stress and the PTSD that they almost all have.

Mark Laita 1:05:11 All. He- he-

Joe Rogan 1:05:12 Every one of those cops has seen videos of a cop pulling someone over for a routine traffic stop and getting gunned down.

Mark Laita 1:05:19 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:05:19 They've all seen that, and they know that that's a possibility. Every time they pull up to a car that has tinted windows, they have no idea what's going on.

Mark Laita 1:05:26 No, get y- ... After doing what I'm doing, which is not as dangerous as what the cops are doing, 'cause th- they're clearly trying to get somebody and put them in jail or prison.

Joe Rogan 1:05:34 Yeah.

Mark Laita 1:05:34 I'm just trying to give them money for an interview. So my, my danger is not as high as theirs, but I can relate to how dangerous their life is, 'cause every single person they approach is potentially gonna shoot them-

Joe Rogan 1:05:46 Yes.

Mark Laita 1:05:47 ... run-

Joe Rogan 1:05:47 Yes.

Mark Laita 1:05:48 ... do something. Or they're mentally ill, and they're gonna just do something crazy.

Joe Rogan 1:05:51 I follow a few, um, b- ... There's, uh, police-related Instagram pages that sort of highlight that that are really well done. One of them is, uh, Police Posts, and Faces of Rampart is another one. And it's, um, these cops that i- uh, post these videos, and it's educational. It just shows pe- ... First of all, it's educational to other police officers 'cause a lot of them, they talk about what went wrong here, situational awareness, why, why this officer got in trouble, what you should do, and how this officer handled this in an incompetent way, or this-

Mark Laita 1:06:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:06:27 You should never allow something to escalate to this p- place. And, but a lot of it is just you are forced to look at what they experience on a, on an everyday basis, where d- everyone they're talking to is lying to them. Everyone they're talking to has a pote- ... And then they, they also develop this horrible cynicism about human beings in everyone they pull over. They just get so overwhelmed w- from decades of this job-

Mark Laita 1:06:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:56 ... that it's just-

Mark Laita 1:06:56 They're so ... The cops are so underappreciated.

Joe Rogan 1:06:59 Yes.

Mark Laita 1:06:59 Especially right now.It's- it's ha- it's terrible.

Joe Rogan 1:07:01 I say it all the time, and people get mad at me all the time. I'm like, "Listen, man, I know cops." Because of my martial arts background, I grew up with cops. I was around cops from the moment I was a young teenager all throughout my adult life because of martial arts, 'cause so many cops train in martial arts to protect themselves. And they're good people for the most part, like all people. Most people are good people for the most part. But good people that are forced into jobs that have horrific pressures attached to them, and horrific consequences if anything goes wrong-

Mark Laita 1:07:34 And paid very little.

Joe Rogan 1:07:35 Yes. And they're under just unbelievable stress, and they make terrible errors because of that stress. And then someone gets a cellphone video of that and th- you know, they post someone planting a gun or doing this, and then everyone thinks all cops do that.

Mark Laita 1:07:50 No, an- and you cannot shoot the wrong guy.

Joe Rogan 1:07:53 Right.

Mark Laita 1:07:53 You cannot ever risk doing that.

Joe Rogan 1:07:56 Yes. I watched a horrible video the other day-

Mark Laita 1:07:58 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:07:58 ... of a-

Mark Laita 1:07:59 So- so they're shooting at you, but you can't really just shoot back because what if you hit a kid? What if you- what if-

Joe Rogan 1:08:05 Right. Well, that was what I saw. There was... It was a b- horrible video of a grandson, this very troubled grandson who pulled a knife on his grandfather, and while the cops were there, he went to stab the grandfather. And the cops opened fire on the kid and shot the grandfather too.

Mark Laita 1:08:21 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:08:21 Killed both of them.

Mark Laita 1:08:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:22 And I'm like, "Oh, Jesus Christ." And in the police post, this was all about, you know, understanding about accuracy, and when to shoot, and when to intervene, and it's sort of a- a step-by-step breakdown for other officers so they can sort of-

Mark Laita 1:08:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:37 ... look at this.

Mark Laita 1:08:37 There's a great video on my channel with a- a retired cop named Kevin, uh, Kevin Donaldson. It's a great story about PTSD of being a cop.

Joe Rogan 1:08:47 I-

Mark Laita 1:08:47 And- and- and- and what the aftermath of all that is, and-

Joe Rogan 1:08:49 I can't even imagine what their minds must be like when, especially someone who works in a horrible neighborhood where you're constantly dealing with that. And the things that they see, like, they're constantly seeing murder, constantly seeing car accidents, constantly seeing overdose, constantly seeing ph- physical abuse, sexual abuse, rape, torture, you name it.

Mark Laita 1:09:11 And you're married and you come home to your wife-

Joe Rogan 1:09:12 Yes.

Mark Laita 1:09:12 ... and it's