Joe Rogan Experience #1911 - Mark Boal

1. 0:00 – 2:15

   Why Rogan’s podcast works: authenticity vs. persona-building

   1. MBMark Boal0:00

      (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

   2. NANarrator0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience. (rock music) Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      Tell me why. Tell me.

   4. MBMark Boal0:13

      I mean, I can give you some theories.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Okay. Just keep this, like, a fist from your face and we're good to go.

   6. MBMark Boal0:19

      Okay.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:19

      What's your theory?

   8. MBMark Boal0:21

      Okay. Wow. Do I need these? These-

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:24

      Yeah, they're better. Keeps us from talking over each other, locks you in.

   10. MBMark Boal0:27

       Holy shit.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:28

       You get used to it.

   12. MBMark Boal0:30

       Okay.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:31

       (laughs)

   14. MBMark Boal0:31

       My ... It's a little trippy.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       Hearing your own voice? Yeah.

   16. MBMark Boal0:36

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:36

       I did so many radio shows back in the day-

   18. MBMark Boal0:38

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:39

       ... I just ... It's normal to me.

   20. MBMark Boal0:40

       I, I'll get into it, but my theory is, um, has to do with authenticity, and what you represent, and how rare that is. And it's not that you're, what you're doing isn't, um, isn't, like, covered in other ways in the culture, but you as an individual and what you bring feels, and I think is, it's not, like, an illusion, very authentic, and that's super rare. And so there's-

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:16

       It shouldn't be super rare though, right? That's what's confusing. Like, y- people should just be able to be themselves.

   22. MBMark Boal1:22

       I, I wonder why ... I mean, there's big commercial interests in it not being-

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:25

       Yeah.

   24. MBMark Boal1:25

       I mean, it's hard for me.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:26

       There's also, people read a lot of social media and they read comments about themselves. They, they, they, they, like, think about what people are saying and then they, like, self-analyze too much and self-censor and self-correct and, you know. I do all that stuff on my own enough where I, I'm pretty introspective and I, uh, analyze myself and I'm probably my harshest critic, so I don't need a, a lot of other people's input on that. And when you do get a lot of people's input on that, I think people start leaning in certain directions politically and socially, and they start saying things 'cause they think it'll gain them favor with certain groups and-

   26. MBMark Boal2:04

       Yeah. I mean, the t- the temptation when you're doing media is to sell something.

   27. JRJoe Rogan2:07

       Yeah.

   28. MBMark Boal2:08

       So as soon as you're trying to sell something, you're gonna get into crafting it a certain way, crafting a persona that you never come across, so-

2. 2:15 – 5:37

   Building The Hurt Locker’s realism: reporting, rule-breaking, and war’s repetition

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:15

      Do you, do you have, uh, those considerations when you're putting together, uh, like, like, The Hurt Locker, for instance? Which is one of my all time favorite movies.

   2. MBMark Boal2:23

      Thank you.

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:25

      It's such a good movie.

   4. MBMark Boal2:26

      Thank you. (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:27

      It's so good 'cause it's so, like, you can see how he would be like that. You could see how he would be drawn to go back there. You could see how the pull of it a- and the chaos of it all. And then there's a scene where he's, I believe he's in a supermarket?

   6. MBMark Boal2:43

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan2:44

      And it's just fucking boring.

   8. MBMark Boal2:46

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan2:46

      Life is just ... The mundane, normal life, and he just wants to go back to war.

   10. MBMark Boal2:51

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan2:53

       It's, it ... And I'm like, I'm ... I buy it all in. You know? It's like, it's very rare that, you know, you see someone, but there's, like, no suspension of disbelief. You buy ... Y- you're watching that film and you're like, "Whoa." Like, I could see-

   12. MBMark Boal3:06

       Well, that was a big part of what we were trying to do, was to c- was to ... So I had been in, I had been in Baghdad as a reporter in 2004, I guess. And, um, I had seen some of what, what's depicted in the, in the film. That's when I witnessed the bomb squad going out and diffusing bombs. And then, and I wrote an article about it, and then, um, the idea came along for a screenplay. I had the idea to write a screenplay, put it that way. And my whole thing is, uh, over the course of a year, I didn't know how to write a screenplay, but my whole thing as I was learning how to do it and doing rewrites was to try to replicate the experience that I had, that I felt when I was there. Okay? So to do that, there was a lot of craft and whatnot involved in how to ... In, in creating that, that I had to learn. But it also meant breaking a lot of rules of narrative and storytelling that you normally would do to make a movie effective, but then in this case may, would have made it less authentic to the experience. Like one, for example, is that most war movies are organized around a mission. It's like in the beginning of the movie you're told, "Hey, this is what we gotta do," and then the rest of the movie plays out like Saving Private Ryan or what have you. Uh, when I was in Baghdad, one of the things I was struck by was the, this ceaseless, like, hamster wheel repetition of the war. That it wasn't organized around a single mission. It was this futile attempt to try to find all these bombs that had been dispersed throughout the country by the counter-insurgency. So, I couldn't organize it around a mission. I had, uh, at least in my mind, to keep it authentic, I had to kind of make the story similar enough to the reality, which was like, every day a new mission. Like, a kinda, you know, um, episodic structure, they call it. So, there were all these decisions along the way that get made to create that feeling that you have where you go, "Oh, I can suspend, I can suspend my disbelief because this feels, this feels real." And then there's the point at which, like, you

3. 5:37 – 9:42

   The supermarket scene and “truth from the heart” translating to audiences

   1. MBMark Boal5:37

      do all this research, I did all that research of actually going there, hanging out with these guys, talking to them, witnessing what they were doing, trying to get deep inside of it, learning about IEDs and how they work and really getting inside their mentality, hanging out with them. And then there's another point at which you kinda put yourself into the piece too, and it's funny that you mention the scene at the end-... and it's, it's been really instructive to me because, uh, uh, when I was doing screenings for The Hurt Locker, a lot of times at the end of the screening, like, a, a vet would come up and that scene in the grocery store where... Sergeant James, that's the character name, was like kinda first time back from the war and he's, he's like overwhelmed by the commercialism of the supermarket and all the choices of cereal. And it's not just that it's boring, it's that it's, like, so meaningless compared to what he'd just been doing and he can't, he can't function. And you've seen this guy operate on such a high level for the past, whatever it is, hour and a half.

   2. JRJoe Rogan6:49

      Yeah, there's a scene right there.

   3. MBMark Boal6:50

      Oh. And he can't choose, you know? All this, like, uh, consumer shit.

   4. JRJoe Rogan7:01

      It was such a good representation of what these guys have to go through.

   5. MBMark Boal7:05

      But my-

   6. NANarrator7:07

      Sorry.

   7. MBMark Boal7:10

      And Renner is so good there too.

   8. JRJoe Rogan7:11

      He's amazing.

   9. MBMark Boal7:12

      But that, that actual thing had happened to me coming back. I felt this sense of dislocation, and I was only there for, like, a couple of weeks. But I felt this sense of, like, how surreally grotesque, like, certain parts of our wealth are after you're in- after you see this poverty and you see the hardship of the war. So that was, like, my thing. That wasn't, like, a research thing.

   10. JRJoe Rogan7:38

       Mm-hmm.

   11. MBMark Boal7:39

       And it's just interesting. It was, like, totally from my heart. And I remember putting it in and thinking, "This is one of the rare things in the movie that, like, I didn't get from reporting." And it actually turned out to be one of the things that translated the most to other people and it kinda taught me about like, well, sometimes if you just dig deep enough, probably there's a chance anyway that, like, your experiences or my experiences, if you're really being honest about them, and this goes back to where we started this conversation, will translate to other people.

   12. JRJoe Rogan8:13

       Mm-hmm.

   13. MBMark Boal8:14

       Even if you don't, even if you think they're super hyper fucking specific to you.

   14. JRJoe Rogan8:20

       Yeah, it's-

   15. MBMark Boal8:21

       Does that make sense?

   16. JRJoe Rogan8:21

       Yes. It might be hyper-specific-

   17. MBMark Boal8:23

       So, so that's what I'm... So-

   18. JRJoe Rogan8:24

       ... but it's very relatable. It's relatable because-

   19. MBMark Boal8:28

       It is in retrospect, but at the time I was like, "This is just a weird thing that happened to me."

   20. JRJoe Rogan8:31

       No, but you nailed it because you-

   21. MBMark Boal8:33

       I-

   22. JRJoe Rogan8:33

       ... because in the context of the movie, you know, you see that this guy is... I mean, every time he's diffusing a bomb, this could be it, and he's over there in this, this chaos-ridden war zone and then he comes back and he's wandering through a supermarket aisle. It was perfect. It was the perfect juxtaposition and it really do- I mean, and you, you, you do relate to it because I think all of us are aware that you kinda get accustomed to whatever you're around, you know? You get accustomed to a chaotic home life or a peaceful home life, you get, you know-

   23. MBMark Boal9:09

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JRJoe Rogan9:09

       ... a very busy workplace where things and people are yelling at each other and everything's constantly moving fast-

   25. MBMark Boal9:14

       Mm-hmm.

   26. JRJoe Rogan9:14

       ... or boring, droning cubicle life.

   27. MBMark Boal9:18

       Mm-hmm.

   28. JRJoe Rogan9:18

       Like, people understand that there's, like, certain ways of living and existing that you can get accustomed to and they kind of make sense when you've adju- adjusted and adapted to them, but then th- to have such a clear difference between being in a war zone and being in a supermarket-

   29. MBMark Boal9:37

       Mm-hmm.

   30. JRJoe Rogan9:38

       ... it was, it was perfect.
4. 9:42 – 15:50

   Responsibility in depicting war: accuracy, ethics, and leaving things out

   1. JRJoe Rogan9:42

      Yeah, no, it was really good man. It's like, what, uh... What does it feel like to have the responsibility of trying to relay one of the most complex aspects of human life, which is war?

   2. MBMark Boal9:57

      It's funny when you said perfect I just flashed on, not to not answer your question, but I, I remember there was some reviewer at the time that called it a near perfect movie.

   3. JRJoe Rogan10:07

      Oh.

   4. MBMark Boal10:08

      And I remember calling him up and being like, "Near perfect? What?"

   5. JRJoe Rogan10:12

      (laughs)

   6. MBMark Boal10:12

      "What the fuck? Like, is that near really necessary?"

   7. JRJoe Rogan10:14

      (laughs) Well, it's-

   8. MBMark Boal10:15

      'Cause I wanna put it on the... I, I, I wanted to put it on the DVD. Anyway, we did. We left it on there.

   9. JRJoe Rogan10:20

      It's still... I mean, you know-

   10. MBMark Boal10:22

       Uh, but-

   11. JRJoe Rogan10:22

       ... it's hard for someone to say something's absolutely perfect.

   12. MBMark Boal10:24

       No, of course, and it's re- it's stupid-

   13. JRJoe Rogan10:26

       Yeah. (laughs)

   14. MBMark Boal10:26

       ... not that it was perfect, but-

   15. JRJoe Rogan10:27

       It's funny though that you called him up-

   16. MBMark Boal10:29

       But I just... I just... When you said perfect though-

   17. JRJoe Rogan10:29

       "What the fuck bro?"

   18. MBMark Boal10:31

       ... I was like, "Near perfect?"

   19. JRJoe Rogan10:31

       "What's near?" (laughs)

   20. MBMark Boal10:33

       (laughs) Yeah. What more do you want?

   21. JRJoe Rogan10:35

       Yeah.

   22. MBMark Boal10:35

       No, I do feel a sense of responsibility. I mean, I think that, uh... I think we're all responsible. I think, uh, whether you're doing a topic like that where I tend to do real life stuff, although the, this m- most recent thing is fictional, I, I think that anybody in the media has a huge sense of responsibility that comes with the territory. Whether they feel it or not or take it on, I don't know. I, I think it would be nice if we lived in a world where people felt more responsible 'cause I think a lot of what is put out there is very irresponsible. And I'm not even talking about, like, with true stories of, like, history where you're distorting history. That's obviously irresponsible. But there's so much of our cultural production, the corporate production that is, in my view, irresponsible. I take the responsibility seriously just because I know, in that case, there, there are people, um... The, there were people that were still down range and in harms way. So, there were all kinds of things that I d- I was careful to not depict 'cause I didn't want to put anybody... Like, that's the most basic level of responsibility, right? Nobody should get hurt because you burned some classified thing.

   23. JRJoe Rogan11:51

       So, like, in terms of, like, tactics that are used?

   24. MBMark Boal11:54

       Tactics or, like, there was, um... At the time in the war, there was, there was a, um... (clicks tongue) There, there was this, like, jamming system that was u- that was, um, used to help, um, prevent, like, remote detonation.... of, of these IEDs, electronic jamming systems. And I didn't depict that at all.

   25. JRJoe Rogan12:16

       Mm-hmm.

   26. MBMark Boal12:16

       And then after the movie came out, a bunch of army guys were like, "That wasn't realistic." I'm like-

   27. JRJoe Rogan12:20

       Right.

   28. MBMark Boal12:21

       ... (laughs) yeah, I mean, it w- it is super realistic, but yes, I left some things out.

   29. JRJoe Rogan12:25

       'Cause y- yeah, that makes sense, though.

   30. MBMark Boal12:26

       Because people called me and they were like, "Dude, you can't put that in."
5. 15:50 – 18:29

   Making big films without studio control: indie financing and what sells

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:50

      How is it managing that when you're dealing with studios and executives and all these different people and they, you know, like, they... Uh, is it difficult to get people on board with what you're trying to, to do? R- you're really trying to make it authentic and...

   2. MBMark Boal16:07

      I don't really... I d- uh, typically I haven't really messed with any of that stuff.

   3. JRJoe Rogan16:12

      That's good.

   4. MBMark Boal16:12

      Like, w- we made those movies, uh, Kathryn Bigelow and I made those movies, like, independently.

   5. JRJoe Rogan16:17

      Oh, that's nice.

   6. MBMark Boal16:19

      So we had-

   7. JRJoe Rogan16:22

      Well, that makes sense.

   8. MBMark Boal16:22

      It was, like, very cowboy-ish, you know?

   9. JRJoe Rogan16:23

      Yeah.

   10. MBMark Boal16:23

       I mean, we had financing from, from a whole bunch of different places. Like, we pre-sold the foreign rights. I mean, this is getting inside baseball. But we never had to deal with, like, a Fox or a Universal-

   11. JRJoe Rogan16:38

       Hm.

   12. MBMark Boal16:38

       ... or a Sony. And even when we made Zero Dark Thirty, that was financed by one person, Megane Ellison, who just wrote a check.

   13. JRJoe Rogan16:47

       Jesus. What a gangster. (laughs)

   14. MBMark Boal16:50

       (laughs) Yeah. I love Megane.

   15. JRJoe Rogan16:53

       Shout out to Megane.

   16. MBMark Boal16:54

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan16:54

       That's a crazy move. How much did that movie cost?

   18. MBMark Boal16:57

       Uh, it depends how you... I- it depends if you include the... Production budget, I think, was around 40-

   19. JRJoe Rogan17:06

       Wow.

   20. MBMark Boal17:06

       ... million dollars. And then promotion, I think she put up another 20-something.

   21. JRJoe Rogan17:15

       Phew.

   22. MBMark Boal17:15

       Yeah, it's a pretty big money.

   23. JRJoe Rogan17:15

       Luckily, it worked. (laughs)

   24. MBMark Boal17:17

       I know. I lost some money. I lost a lot of her money on Detroit, so.

   25. JRJoe Rogan17:21

       Oh, did you?

   26. MBMark Boal17:21

       But, but she made a lot on, um, on Zero Dark Thirty.

   27. JRJoe Rogan17:24

       It's, yeah, it's, it's interesting, like, what catches and what doesn't catch in the movie world, you know? We were, uh, talking the other day about The Northman, about how, uh, it's probably one of the most realistic depictions of what it must've been like to be living as a Viking. There's no, like, traditional, like, normal, modern day superhero type people.

   28. MBMark Boal17:47

       Mm-hmm.

   29. JRJoe Rogan17:47

       There's no... Y- you know, everyone is, like, this chaotic person from history w- filled with flaws, filled with-

   30. MBMark Boal17:55

       Mm-hmm.
6. 18:29 – 23:52

   Why Hollywood won’t hand him Marvel: factories, IP playbooks, and format constraints

   1. JRJoe Rogan18:29

      When you've had a series of successful films, is there, um, is there ever a moment where they come to you and say, "Listen, what do you think about doing, like, a big blockbuster action movie and kinda bring in some of that to-"

   2. MBMark Boal18:46

      Nobody ever fucking asked me that. (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan18:48

      No?

   4. MBMark Boal18:49

      No. (laughs) They never do. I mean, I did, I, I did some, like, script doctoring for a while, which is kind of the closest I've come to that, which was great 'cause it was crazy good money, where you come in and they're like, "Okay, you have a week." They pay you by the week. Or two weeks. "Can you, like, give the bad guys some different lines of dialogue?"

   5. JRJoe Rogan19:11

      Hm.

   6. MBMark Boal19:11

      Or something like that. Or like, "Can you fix the third act?" So I've done that, but, um, nobody's ever said, "Here's our prized piece of IP, here's, like, Spider-Man or whatever you want to-"

   7. JRJoe Rogan19:25

      Right.

   8. MBMark Boal19:25

      ... you know, we want you to shepherd it through." No.

   9. JRJoe Rogan19:27

      Well, the thing is, that would be a great story for, like, the media. Like, "We've taken this guy who does these very authentic films and we've applied him to, you know-"

   10. MBMark Boal19:37

       Yeah, it'd be a good story-

   11. JRJoe Rogan19:38

       "... blockbuster."

   12. MBMark Boal19:39

       ... but they don't, they don't need that. They don't want that. Like, eh, you know what I mean? If I'm running one of those companies, I wouldn't hire me.

   13. JRJoe Rogan19:46

       (laughs)

   14. MBMark Boal19:46

       Like, you don't wanna have that conversation. You're just like, "Dude, here's how we do it."

   15. JRJoe Rogan19:49

       (laughs)

   16. MBMark Boal19:49

       "We have a, (laughs) we have a playbook-"

   17. JRJoe Rogan19:51

       Yeah.

   18. MBMark Boal19:51

       ... okay? It's worked every fucking time, and we're gonna do the same playbook again."

   19. JRJoe Rogan19:58

       Yeah.

   20. MBMark Boal19:58

       And I'd, and I'd be like, "Well, yeah, but can't we change it up? And what if we made it more realistic? And what if we tried to, like, make it more authentic?" They'd be like, "Bro, we're selling toys-"

   21. JRJoe Rogan20:07

       Yeah.

   22. MBMark Boal20:08

       "... for kids."

   23. JRJoe Rogan20:09

       They, they are, but l- adults watch it too. That would be the temptation.

   24. MBMark Boal20:13

       (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan20:13

       The temptation would be like-

   26. MBMark Boal20:14

       Well, every once in a while, you get, like, a Chris Nolan or somebody that has the ins- th- the, like, insane artistic chops and also, like, the marketplace power, uh, with a number of, like, to, to change it up.

   27. JRJoe Rogan20:28

       Like the Watchmen.

   28. MBMark Boal20:29

       Yeah, or, like, the Watchmen's a good example too.

   29. JRJoe Rogan20:31

       Yeah.

   30. MBMark Boal20:32

       But, like, he did it with Dark Knight.
7. 23:52 – 29:21

   Echo 3 setup: a ‘10-hour movie’ kidnapping thriller in Venezuela/Colombia

   1. JRJoe Rogan23:52

      But there's a giant difference between the way you feel about that versus Zero Dark Thirty or versus The Hurt Locker or this new thing, Echoed Truth, which I haven't had a chance to see 'cause it comes out Friday, right? It comes out-

   2. MBMark Boal24:04

      It's, it's, uh, uh, on Friday, the fifth episode will be out. It's on Apple TV.

   3. JRJoe Rogan24:09

      So, it's out now?

   4. MBMark Boal24:10

      It's out on Apple TV.

   5. JRJoe Rogan24:11

      And why did you decide to-

   6. MBMark Boal24:13

      You have to, you have to actually have Apple TV.

   7. JRJoe Rogan24:17

      Yeah.

   8. MBMark Boal24:17

      Or ...... you could sign up for a free trial-

   9. JRJoe Rogan24:21

      Huh.

   10. MBMark Boal24:21

       ... and watch my show, for, for-

   11. JRJoe Rogan24:23

       Oh, you could do that?

   12. MBMark Boal24:23

       ... you could wa- you can, you can, there's a seven-day free. It's, it's like, six bucks to, or seven bucks a month. I can't believe I'm shilling right now for the Apple Corporation, they clearly need me to do it.

   13. JRJoe Rogan24:33

       (laughs)

   14. MBMark Boal24:33

       (laughs) It's like, we're two and a half trill-

   15. JRJoe Rogan24:35

       Well, they need help.

   16. MBMark Boal24:35

       They do. Eh, they have two and a half trillion d-

   17. JRJoe Rogan24:36

       They're not doing that well.

   18. MBMark Boal24:38

       No.

   19. JRJoe Rogan24:38

       They're n- only in everyone's pocket.

   20. MBMark Boal24:40

       So if you could just give them six or seven... I think it's $6.99.

   21. JRJoe Rogan24:43

       For the trial? Or for the month?

   22. MBMark Boal24:45

       No, the trial is free.

   23. JRJoe Rogan24:46

       For every month, it's $6.99. I've had it forever. It's the best. I love Apple TV.

   24. MBMark Boal24:51

       I-

   25. JRJoe Rogan24:51

       I'll shill for them.

   26. MBMark Boal24:52

       Just-

   27. JRJoe Rogan24:52

       'Cause it's fucking so convenient.

   28. MBMark Boal24:53

       ... just fucking sign up for the trial. Here's my proposition, if you haven't. Sign up for the trial, you'll watch, you'll get the first six episodes if you sign up today. And then you, and then you can decide if you wanna go f- pay the $6.99 for the last f-

   29. JRJoe Rogan25:09

       So watch it for six hours, and then cancel it.

   30. MBMark Boal25:11

       No, then pay seven bucks and watch the last four hours.
8. 29:21 – 32:28

   Themes inside the thriller: family, honesty, masculinity, and moral gray zones

   1. JRJoe Rogan29:21

      Right. When you say all your other interests, what do you mean by that?

   2. MBMark Boal29:24

      Well, just whatever else I've been thinking. Like, I've been thinking a lot about other shit besides kidnapping, so. (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan29:32

      (laughs)

   4. MBMark Boal29:32

      I mean, it's a story about family, okay? It's a story about their relationship, the relationship between husband and wife. It's a story about honesty. It's a story about love. It's a story about how couples lie to each other and what the price of, of lying is. It's a story about men and how men relate to each other, um, i- i- i- in that, you know, these two guys, um, know each other well 'cause they're in the same unit together but they also have like a somewhat complicated past. And they have this, this mission that they have to deal with that's, that's not like a, it's not like a, um...... it's not like a mission that has been given to them by the government, so it's not like their job. So it has a different quality to it because it's their, it's their, the person they love the most in the world. And, and so it's about how these two guys interact with each other. It's about representations of masculinity, which is something we can talk about. Um, it's about how the fucking world works. How would the CIA respond to a situation like that? One of the things was, like, there, there was always these conversations as I was writing the script like, "Who are the bad guys? Who are the bad guys?" You always need a bad guy, particularly in a kidnapping story. The bad guys are obviously gonna be the kidnappers. But, you know, I think a little bit about kind of trying to, when we talked about responsibility, trying to, trying to, like, get rid of some of that black and white thinking and give people something that has a little more gray in it. And so one of the things we do in the show is like, "I'll put you inside the room of the rebels who were involved in the kidnapping. I'll, I, I want, I want you to understand who they are and where they're coming from." 'Cause just making them, like, mustached, twirly bad guys isn't really... It's not really gonna be that helpful to my final ultimate goal, which is to put you, at the end of this 10 hours, in a place that you didn't see coming and give you an experience that you didn't really think you were gonna have and a series of thoughts and emotions that probably you haven't had in exactly this way before, right? But if I give you the same shit you've always seen, and I'm like, "Oh, here's the bad guy. This is how the bad guy behaves. You know that. You've seen a million bad guys," then it's very hard for me to, like, at the end of it, give you a new emotional response. And that's, like, or a new ps- or a new thought process. And so, I don't know, that's all the shit (laughs) . That's some of the shit I've been thinking about.

9. 32:28 – 45:11

   Modern media consumption vs. cinema: attention, phones, and storytelling pressure

   1. JRJoe Rogan32:28

      What, what is the difference in the challenge of putting together a 10-hour film, essentially, that's broken into one-hour increments, versus a traditional film format? Like, how, how much different is your process? And how much more planning is involved and, uh, how much more time?

   2. MBMark Boal32:46

      It's five times as long, obviously, and, and that's just like an insa- uh, I didn't really know, 'cause when I started I just thought, "Oh, it's just five times." But it's, it's like five times as long but like 100 times harder because-

   3. JRJoe Rogan32:59

      And connected.

   4. MBMark Boal33:00

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan33:00

      Yeah.

   6. MBMark Boal33:01

      It, it's, it's, um... I mean, the biggest thing is the delivery system, I would say, is the b- I don't know that my process changes that much. But, see, in a movie, I have you. If you pay the money, if I can get you to pay the money and you go into a theater... Okay, this is dating back before people just stayed home, but let's say back in the day when people still went to theaters, I have you. You're not likely to walk out unless it's fucking terrible, 'cause you paid the money, you've parked your car, you're gonna sit. Now, the fact that I have you somewhat as a captive audience is a huge advantage to me because it means I can, like, disperse out effects in a much more calibrated way. I don't have to give you, like, a dopamine hit every 30 seconds, 'cause I'm not trying to keep you in your seat. And I can tell a much more complicated story and challenge you a lot more. When it's TV, I don't fucking have anything of your attention, right? Like, you're, you could be streaming it in the kitchen, making eggs. You could be, like, on your, it could be on your phone. I could be spending, like, weeks building the most bitching special effects, realistic action sequence ever committed (laughs) to television, which I think we've done here and there in terms of the realism of the combat. Like, in the beginning of the, of this, of, of episode one, there's like a 15-minute action sequence that takes place on a snowy mountain, Afghanistan, meant to be Afghanistan. And it's guys fighting in the snow, which we really haven't seen that much of. And there's Black Hawk helicopters and .50 caliber machine guns, and it's beautifully shot, the best sound mixing in the world. Like, the sound of the bullets ricocheting off the mountains are sick. A- and an enormous amount of energy went into making sure, like this, all the snow matched, like the snow that we got on that day matched the visual effects of the fake snow for the days we weren't there. If you're watching that shit on your phone-

   7. JRJoe Rogan34:52

      Right.

   8. MBMark Boal34:52

      ... it, it's just like, you're just gonna be like, "Oh, what's this?"

   9. JRJoe Rogan34:55

      How frustrating is that, that, that that's how people consume films?

   10. MBMark Boal34:59

       Well, that's the advantage of a film like that. So to me it's like, I work the same way, but, but the audience is like, like openness when you're in a movie because you're... Is totally different when you're in TV. So TV tends to be a lot more pushy and salesy in terms of how the storytelling goes because they're like... It's not like you have somebody for two hours. You have somebody for two minutes before they decide to get up and go to the fridge.

   11. JRJoe Rogan35:23

       Yeah.

   12. MBMark Boal35:24

       Um, or s- change the chan- Like, how easy is it just to change the channel?

   13. JRJoe Rogan35:28

       Yeah, or stare at your phone while you're at home.

   14. MBMark Boal35:31

       Whatever. It's fucked.

   15. JRJoe Rogan35:32

       Yeah.

   16. MBMark Boal35:32

       It's so hard.

   17. JRJoe Rogan35:33

       Yeah.

   18. MBMark Boal35:34

       I kinda blew all that off, like, maybe stupidly, but I kind of was thinking to place the bet that there are audiences out there that want something really dope and that are willing to hang in there and give their attention to it.

   19. JRJoe Rogan35:48

       Most certainly.

   20. MBMark Boal35:49

       I, I-

   21. JRJoe Rogan35:49

       And it's also, like, you can't play to the people that are not gonna pay attention, right? You have to kind of create it for the, the, the person that's gonna be deeply embedded in the experience.

   22. MBMark Boal36:01

       Yeah, you just don't know how big that audience really is until you go out there.

   23. JRJoe Rogan36:04

       Yeah. What, what, what did you mean when you were talking about, um, masculinity, when you were talking about, like, depictions of masculinity?

   24. MBMark Boal36:14

       Um, it's just something that I was thinking about because, um, the, the characters in this... I mean, I've been interested in that for a long time. I mean, the, the, the-... the character in The Hurt Locker is very ... Has a lot of, like, very classically masculine traits. Sergeant James, you know, he's very, like, incredibly brave and stoic. And, in a way, one of the themes of The Hurt Locker was, like, deconstructing that and showing that some of his heroism was, like, a flight from intimacy. 'Cause in the end he, like, leaves his wife and child to go back to fight. And then Zero Dark Thirty was a little different 'cause that had a fe- a very strong female lead. But this, this show has these two guys who are, like, hyper-masculine 'cause they're, they're in, they're meant to be, you know, in CAG and Delta. They're meant to be, like, the, among the best of the best of America's fighting force. So, a- as an opener you look, most people will look at that and be like, "These are, these are real fucking men." And then the question is, like, you probably know this because you have, like, it seems like you have, like, some team guys in your life or, you know, around the office. Most mo- usually depictions of, of, um, soldiers or operators are pretty often pretty, like, cartoony. And I think that right now in the culture there's a lot of talk about, like, a crisis of masculinity. I don't know if any of your guests have ever talked about that. But there's this idea in the culture right now that, um, you know, post 'Me Too', um, men, particularly white men, are, are like kind of adrift in this, like, feminist environment where they feel like they can't be themselves. Like, there's this term 'toxic masculinity'. And we can talk about whether or not that's true and how big of a problem that is, but what I don't think is really debatable is if you look at, like, the net amount of, like, images in the culture, there really aren't that many i- portrayals of men right now that are, that both, where the, where the men both embody, like, classical masculine traits and are also prosocial, like they're not assholes.

   25. JRJoe Rogan38:52

       Right.

   26. MBMark Boal38:54

       And then you-

   27. JRJoe Rogan38:54

       They're not mutually exclusive.

   28. MBMark Boal38:56

       They're ... No, but they are, they're not mutually exclusive, right.

   29. JRJoe Rogan38:58

       Right. But they are often in-

   30. MBMark Boal38:59

       But-
10. 45:11 – 1:01:34

    Propaganda, privacy, and fractured consensus: bots, Russia, TikTok, and lost trust

    1. MBMark Boal45:11

       They're- they're... I mean, everyone's already so up in my shit. I did- I spent two years investigating, preparing a piece on Trump and Russia where I, like, went to Ukraine. Like, my- my- my- that's- dude, that- that horse left the barn a while ago.

    2. JRJoe Rogan45:25

       What was that like?

    3. MBMark Boal45:26

       The Chinese can have what they want.

    4. JRJoe Rogan45:27

       (laughs)

    5. MBMark Boal45:27

       It's getting fucking late. There's nothing in there anyway.

    6. JRJoe Rogan45:30

       What was that like? You- you spent two years?

    7. MBMark Boal45:33

       Yeah. I was trying to make... I wanted to... After 2016, after Trump was elected, I- I did a, uh... It didn't get made, but I did a lot of research into, like, his whole- the whole Russia story. And, um... And then, um, wrote a script and sold it to Showtime, and at the last minute they killed it when Showtime got bought by Viacom.

    8. JRJoe Rogan45:54

       Damn.

    9. MBMark Boal45:55

       Um, that was a... (sighs) Yeah. That hurt.

    10. JRJoe Rogan45:57

        What was- what was your take on that? Like, 'cause, like, I have the most cursory understanding of Trump and Ukraine and Russia and the Biden laptop and Burisma and all that shit. I- I just, I'll watch a few YouTube commentators talking about it or I'll read a few articles in The Atlantic, and I don't know what's real.

    11. MBMark Boal46:16

        Yeah. I mean, I think- I don't- I don't think anybody really got it, um, really got it right. I mean, the- the... It's kinda the problem with the media today. The narrative that started about collusion, um, that- that the left just, like, fucking doubled down on and tripled down on was kinda not really right in the beginning. And then when- when it didn't- when the evidence didn't bear fruit to what they had been proposing, people said, "Well, then there's, like, nothing here." So, I... It's a super complicated story, but- but it's not- it hasn't really been told.

    12. JRJoe Rogan46:55

        Hm.

    13. MBMark Boal46:56

        It's... I mean, that's- that's definitely for sure.

    14. JRJoe Rogan46:58

        Why did they kill that? That seems like a fascinating take. I would love to see your take on that.

    15. MBMark Boal47:02

        I think that, uh, they thought it was, like, probably bad business.

    16. JRJoe Rogan47:06

        Why?

    17. MBMark Boal47:08

        Well, I thought it would be cool to, like, you know, fuck with the sitting president on TV.

    18. JRJoe Rogan47:12

        (laughs)

    19. MBMark Boal47:14

        You know? I was like, "Television's never done this before. This can be, like, ama-" And they were like, "Yeah, that's not a- that's not a smart idea."

    20. JRJoe Rogan47:21

        Bad for regulation, bad for- yeah.

    21. MBMark Boal47:22

        Just, like, you're a multinational company with business before the fucking government. Just no.

    22. JRJoe Rogan47:27

        Have you thought about doing that independently?

    23. MBMark Boal47:30

        Yeah. I mean, I should've-

    24. JRJoe Rogan47:31

        Because you still have it, right?

    25. MBMark Boal47:32

        ... I should've done... I sh- yeah. I should've done it independently.

    26. JRJoe Rogan47:34

        Hm.

    27. MBMark Boal47:34

        I should've done it independently.

    28. JRJoe Rogan47:36

        Maybe it'd be good now because time has passed.

    29. MBMark Boal47:39

        The thing is that every day something else crazier happens-

    30. JRJoe Rogan47:43

        Hm.
11. 1:01:34 – 1:16:24

    Tribal politics, ‘woke ideology,’ and why ambiguity is disappearing

    1. MBMark Boal1:01:34

       What is that? What is, wh- wh- what is woke ideology to you?

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:01:37

       Woke ideology-

    3. MBMark Boal1:01:38

       I mean, I just-

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:01:39

       ... I think-

    5. MBMark Boal1:01:39

       ... I think we need to define it 'cause before-

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:01:41

       Yeah.

    7. MBMark Boal1:01:41

       ... I jump in and ...

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:01:42

       Well, I think one of the best ways to describe it is, a, a group of ideas that are also ta- attached to ideas that are ridiculous. And I think that's the case with right-wing ideology as well. I think we have an inherent problem where we're very tribal and we're looking for a team, and ultimately in this country there's only-

    9. MBMark Boal1:02:03

       Yeah.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:02:03

        ... two teams.

    11. MBMark Boal1:02:03

        Yeah, that's right.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:02:04

        There's team right and team left. I have a whole bit about ... It's like, kind of, ..........................

    13. MBMark Boal1:02:07

        It's like the Crips and the- it's like the Crips and the Bloods.

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:02:09

        Yeah. (laughs)

    15. MBMark Boal1:02:09

        (laughs)

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:02:09

        It is.

    17. MBMark Boal1:02:10

        You know, and if you're not-

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:02:11

        Yeah.

    19. MBMark Boal1:02:11

        ... on one, the other one-

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:02:12

        Yeah.

    21. MBMark Boal1:02:13

        Yeah. It's hard not to be on one.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:02:15

        And things get captivated, you know, like, well, there's certain things that cannot be questioned, there's certain things, like a man can be pregnant and, you know, what, uh, you could ... You should have, uh, drag queen shows in kindergarten 'cause it's not a problem. And then people go, "But, but what about children? What about the ... But, but you're talking about queer issues." Okay, we gotta leave it alone 'cause this is a, a, you know, in the woke world everything, LBGTQ, is, you know, beyond reproach and you have to leave it alone. In the right-wing world you have preposterous notions about a woman's right to choose, you have, uh, radical control over people's bodies that is based on religious ideology, you know, conception begin- or life begins at the moment of conception, and even in cases of rape, abortion should be illegal. Like, so we're so polarized with preposterous ideas on both the l- the right and on the left where you can't be ... you can't question things because if you do it's, it's against the tribe, and then you'll be a person without a country or a person without a, a group to be a part of. That's what gets me. It's not even the ideology, it's the, the mechanisms involved are so inherent to the human condition that we, we will adopt a predetermined pattern of thinking and behavior because it's more convenient than formulating our own ideas and, and thinking about things on their own.

    23. MBMark Boal1:03:36

        Yeah, and there's a lot of enforcement on both sides.

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:03:38

        Yes.

    25. MBMark Boal1:03:38

        There's a lot of police work. It's not-

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:03:40

        Yeah.

    27. MBMark Boal1:03:40

        I mean, I think people have always been into their opinions but, but what's really new is how, is how, um, how policed it all is.

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:03:48

        Yes, and attacking people who-

    29. MBMark Boal1:03:49

        That's what I mean.

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:03:50

        ... differ from the convention, yes. And also virtue signaling which is a completely new thing, where you can publicly display your disdain for someone who steps outside the lines and therefore you supposedly boost your social cred. But it doesn't really work that well. It's kind of akin to, um, name-dropping.
12. 1:16:24 – 1:38:01

    What comes next: Neuralink, ancient catastrophes, and human nature vs. tech

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:16:24

       Um, but what, what I think is going to happen, and this is, um, this is neither good nor bad 'cause I think it's inevitable, I think technology is going to ... There's going to be a new technology that emerges that changes things as radically, if not more, than what the internet has done. And I think most likely it's gonna be human neural interfaces.

    2. MBMark Boal1:16:48

       Okay.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:16:48

       And those are around the corner, and they're going to be here before you know it, and they're gonna sneak up on us just like the internet snuck up on us.

    4. MBMark Boal1:16:55

       What, what is that exactly?

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:16:56

       A neuro link.

    6. MBMark Boal1:16:56

       That's a chip in your, a chip in your head or something?

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:16:59

       Yeah. Yes. They're gonna use it initially for people with ALS and various, uh, injuries and diseases and where they, they, you know, they can't control their muscles anymore, and it's gonna rewire the way the human mind interacts with the physical body. But I think ultimately it's going to remap the way people communicate with each other. In, in Elon's words on this podcast, he said, "You're gonna be able to talk without using words."

    8. MBMark Boal1:17:23

       Are we gonna miss this?

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:17:25

       No.

    10. MBMark Boal1:17:25

        I'm happy to miss it, by the way.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:17:26

        It's gonna happen. We're gonna be old. They're gonna drill into our head. We're gonna be like late adopters, like when grandpa got email. (laughs)

    12. MBMark Boal1:17:32

        Okay. When grandpa got the Neuralink. 80 years old.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:17:36

        I think, I think it's going to be-

    14. MBMark Boal1:17:37

        I'm happy to miss it. I'm, like, that doesn't sound ...

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:17:40

        Well, in, in Elon's perspective, we're already cyborgs, right? 'Cause we already have these things in our pockets. It's just not physically embedded into your actual body. But one day it will be.

    16. MBMark Boal1:17:50

        Okay.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:17:50

        And it will be because it will be better than not having it in there. Wh- when the technology sufficiently advances to the point where you know it's safe, you know it's everywhere, you know that everyone has it, you're missing out, and all these people are gaining some sort of a- an advantage either in the workplace or an industry or whatever it is or socially from using that, you're gonna use it.

    18. MBMark Boal1:18:14

        Well, maybe there'll be, like, a whole tribe of people that are, like, primitives that just-

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:18:19

        Oh, yeah.

    20. MBMark Boal1:18:20

        ... reject this shit-

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:18:21

        Yeah.

    22. MBMark Boal1:18:21

        ... and just continue to hunt and, like, not get the Neuralink.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:18:25

        That's always been the case. I mean, that's the, one of the things that Graham Hancock points out when, uh ... You know, he has this, uh, amazing show, Ancient Catastrophe. Or Ancient Apocalypse?

    24. MBMark Boal1:18:34

        ... yeah.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:18:34

        Ancient Apocalypse, that's on Netflix. It's talking about, um, evidence that, uh, there's a, a very advanced human civilization that lived a long time ago that was, uh, destroyed by, uh, impacts, by comet impacts.

    26. MBMark Boal1:18:49

        Okay. Okay.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:18:49

        When it went through a comet storm. And this is, like, what caused the end of the Ice Age. Th- this is actually, like, legitimate scientific inquiry into this, called the Younger Dryas impact theory.

    28. MBMark Boal1:18:58

        Right.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:18:58

        And it's based on actual real data that they get from soil. Like, when they do, um, uh, core samples of the Earth, they can find out that at this point when the Ice Age ended, around 12,800 years ago, there's a, a lot of iridium in the soil.

    30. MBMark Boal1:19:15

        Okay.

Episode duration: 2:51:11