Joe Rogan Experience #1911 - Mark Boal

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast.…

   1. MBMark Boal0:00

      (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

   2. NANarrator0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience. (rock music) Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      Tell me why. Tell me.

   4. MBMark Boal0:13

      I mean, I can give you some theories.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Okay. Just keep this, like, a fist from your face and we're good to go.

   6. MBMark Boal0:19

      Okay.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:19

      What's your theory?

   8. MBMark Boal0:21

      Okay. Wow. Do I need these? These-

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:24

      Yeah, they're better. Keeps us from talking over each other, locks you in.

   10. MBMark Boal0:27

       Holy shit.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:28

       You get used to it.

   12. MBMark Boal0:30

       Okay.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:31

       (laughs)

   14. MBMark Boal0:31

       My ... It's a little trippy.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       Hearing your own voice? Yeah.

   16. MBMark Boal0:36

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:36

       I did so many radio shows back in the day-

   18. MBMark Boal0:38

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:39

       ... I just ... It's normal to me.

   20. MBMark Boal0:40

       I, I'll get into it, but my theory is, um, has to do with authenticity, and what you represent, and how rare that is. And it's not that you're, what you're doing isn't, um, isn't, like, covered in other ways in the culture, but you as an individual and what you bring feels, and I think is, it's not, like, an illusion, very authentic, and that's super rare. And so there's-

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:16

       It shouldn't be super rare though, right? That's what's confusing. Like, y- people should just be able to be themselves.

   22. MBMark Boal1:22

       I, I wonder why ... I mean, there's big commercial interests in it not being-

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:25

       Yeah.

   24. MBMark Boal1:25

       I mean, it's hard for me.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:26

       There's also, people read a lot of social media and they read comments about themselves. They, they, they, they, like, think about what people are saying and then they, like, self-analyze too much and self-censor and self-correct and, you know. I do all that stuff on my own enough where I, I'm pretty introspective and I, uh, analyze myself and I'm probably my harshest critic, so I don't need a, a lot of other people's input on that. And when you do get a lot of people's input on that, I think people start leaning in certain directions politically and socially, and they start saying things 'cause they think it'll gain them favor with certain groups and-

   26. MBMark Boal2:04

       Yeah. I mean, the t- the temptation when you're doing media is to sell something.

   27. JRJoe Rogan2:07

       Yeah.

   28. MBMark Boal2:08

       So as soon as you're trying to sell something, you're gonna get into crafting it a certain way, crafting a persona that you never come across, so-

   29. JRJoe Rogan2:15

       Do you, do you have, uh, those considerations when you're putting together, uh, like, like, The Hurt Locker, for instance? Which is one of my all time favorite movies.

   30. MBMark Boal2:23

       Thank you.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Here's an example. Like,…

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:00

      it makes sense. Like, you're trying to m- do a film that's impactful but it's also y- y- it's, it's easy to follow because you understand that this is how people behave and this is how it w- really goes down. So here's a-

   2. MBMark Boal15:14

      Here's an example. Like, if I made a movie about Iraq where you ended up feeling, like, really good about the war.

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:29

      Hm.

   4. MBMark Boal15:31

      Like, a feel-good movie about the war.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:33

      Yeah.

   6. MBMark Boal15:34

      Happens all the time.

   7. JRJoe Rogan15:35

      Yeah.

   8. MBMark Boal15:36

      You know? I think that's irresponsible. Not that there aren't, like, amazing stories of heroism and not that there aren't moments about that war to feel good about, but the overall gist of it is it, uh, uh, it, like, was, um, a, a catastrophe.

   9. JRJoe Rogan15:50

      How is it managing that when you're dealing with studios and executives and all these different people and they, you know, like, they... Uh, is it difficult to get people on board with what you're trying to, to do? R- you're really trying to make it authentic and...

   10. MBMark Boal16:07

       I don't really... I d- uh, typically I haven't really messed with any of that stuff.

   11. JRJoe Rogan16:12

       That's good.

   12. MBMark Boal16:12

       Like, w- we made those movies, uh, Kathryn Bigelow and I made those movies, like, independently.

   13. JRJoe Rogan16:17

       Oh, that's nice.

   14. MBMark Boal16:19

       So we had-

   15. JRJoe Rogan16:22

       Well, that makes sense.

   16. MBMark Boal16:22

       It was, like, very cowboy-ish, you know?

   17. JRJoe Rogan16:23

       Yeah.

   18. MBMark Boal16:23

       I mean, we had financing from, from a whole bunch of different places. Like, we pre-sold the foreign rights. I mean, this is getting inside baseball. But we never had to deal with, like, a Fox or a Universal-

   19. JRJoe Rogan16:38

       Hm.

   20. MBMark Boal16:38

       ... or a Sony. And even when we made Zero Dark Thirty, that was financed by one person, Megane Ellison, who just wrote a check.

   21. JRJoe Rogan16:47

       Jesus. What a gangster. (laughs)

   22. MBMark Boal16:50

       (laughs) Yeah. I love Megane.

   23. JRJoe Rogan16:53

       Shout out to Megane.

   24. MBMark Boal16:54

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan16:54

       That's a crazy move. How much did that movie cost?

   26. MBMark Boal16:57

       Uh, it depends how you... I- it depends if you include the... Production budget, I think, was around 40-

   27. JRJoe Rogan17:06

       Wow.

   28. MBMark Boal17:06

       ... million dollars. And then promotion, I think she put up another 20-something.

   29. JRJoe Rogan17:15

       Phew.

   30. MBMark Boal17:15

       Yeah, it's a pretty big money.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   What, what is the…

   1. MBMark Boal30:00

      you know, these two guys, um, know each other well 'cause they're in the same unit together but they also have like a somewhat complicated past. And they have this, this mission that they have to deal with that's, that's not like a, it's not like a, um...... it's not like a mission that has been given to them by the government, so it's not like their job. So it has a different quality to it because it's their, it's their, the person they love the most in the world. And, and so it's about how these two guys interact with each other. It's about representations of masculinity, which is something we can talk about. Um, it's about how the fucking world works. How would the CIA respond to a situation like that? One of the things was, like, there, there was always these conversations as I was writing the script like, "Who are the bad guys? Who are the bad guys?" You always need a bad guy, particularly in a kidnapping story. The bad guys are obviously gonna be the kidnappers. But, you know, I think a little bit about kind of trying to, when we talked about responsibility, trying to, trying to, like, get rid of some of that black and white thinking and give people something that has a little more gray in it. And so one of the things we do in the show is like, "I'll put you inside the room of the rebels who were involved in the kidnapping. I'll, I, I want, I want you to understand who they are and where they're coming from." 'Cause just making them, like, mustached, twirly bad guys isn't really... It's not really gonna be that helpful to my final ultimate goal, which is to put you, at the end of this 10 hours, in a place that you didn't see coming and give you an experience that you didn't really think you were gonna have and a series of thoughts and emotions that probably you haven't had in exactly this way before, right? But if I give you the same shit you've always seen, and I'm like, "Oh, here's the bad guy. This is how the bad guy behaves. You know that. You've seen a million bad guys," then it's very hard for me to, like, at the end of it, give you a new emotional response. And that's, like, or a new ps- or a new thought process. And so, I don't know, that's all the shit (laughs) . That's some of the shit I've been thinking about.

   2. JRJoe Rogan32:28

      What, what is the difference in the challenge of putting together a 10-hour film, essentially, that's broken into one-hour increments, versus a traditional film format? Like, how, how much different is your process? And how much more planning is involved and, uh, how much more time?

   3. MBMark Boal32:46

      It's five times as long, obviously, and, and that's just like an insa- uh, I didn't really know, 'cause when I started I just thought, "Oh, it's just five times." But it's, it's like five times as long but like 100 times harder because-

   4. JRJoe Rogan32:59

      And connected.

   5. MBMark Boal33:00

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan33:00

      Yeah.

   7. MBMark Boal33:01

      It, it's, it's, um... I mean, the biggest thing is the delivery system, I would say, is the b- I don't know that my process changes that much. But, see, in a movie, I have you. If you pay the money, if I can get you to pay the money and you go into a theater... Okay, this is dating back before people just stayed home, but let's say back in the day when people still went to theaters, I have you. You're not likely to walk out unless it's fucking terrible, 'cause you paid the money, you've parked your car, you're gonna sit. Now, the fact that I have you somewhat as a captive audience is a huge advantage to me because it means I can, like, disperse out effects in a much more calibrated way. I don't have to give you, like, a dopamine hit every 30 seconds, 'cause I'm not trying to keep you in your seat. And I can tell a much more complicated story and challenge you a lot more. When it's TV, I don't fucking have anything of your attention, right? Like, you're, you could be streaming it in the kitchen, making eggs. You could be, like, on your, it could be on your phone. I could be spending, like, weeks building the most bitching special effects, realistic action sequence ever committed (laughs) to television, which I think we've done here and there in terms of the realism of the combat. Like, in the beginning of the, of this, of, of episode one, there's like a 15-minute action sequence that takes place on a snowy mountain, Afghanistan, meant to be Afghanistan. And it's guys fighting in the snow, which we really haven't seen that much of. And there's Black Hawk helicopters and .50 caliber machine guns, and it's beautifully shot, the best sound mixing in the world. Like, the sound of the bullets ricocheting off the mountains are sick. A- and an enormous amount of energy went into making sure, like this, all the snow matched, like the snow that we got on that day matched the visual effects of the fake snow for the days we weren't there. If you're watching that shit on your phone-

   8. JRJoe Rogan34:52

      Right.

   9. MBMark Boal34:52

      ... it, it's just like, you're just gonna be like, "Oh, what's this?"

   10. JRJoe Rogan34:55

       How frustrating is that, that, that that's how people consume films?

   11. MBMark Boal34:59

       Well, that's the advantage of a film like that. So to me it's like, I work the same way, but, but the audience is like, like openness when you're in a movie because you're... Is totally different when you're in TV. So TV tends to be a lot more pushy and salesy in terms of how the storytelling goes because they're like... It's not like you have somebody for two hours. You have somebody for two minutes before they decide to get up and go to the fridge.

   12. JRJoe Rogan35:23

       Yeah.

   13. MBMark Boal35:24

       Um, or s- change the chan- Like, how easy is it just to change the channel?

   14. JRJoe Rogan35:28

       Yeah, or stare at your phone while you're at home.

   15. MBMark Boal35:31

       Whatever. It's fucked.

   16. JRJoe Rogan35:32

       Yeah.

   17. MBMark Boal35:32

       It's so hard.

   18. JRJoe Rogan35:33

       Yeah.

   19. MBMark Boal35:34

       I kinda blew all that off, like, maybe stupidly, but I kind of was thinking to place the bet that there are audiences out there that want something really dope and that are willing to hang in there and give their attention to it.

   20. JRJoe Rogan35:48

       Most certainly.

   21. MBMark Boal35:49

       I, I-

   22. JRJoe Rogan35:49

       And it's also, like, you can't play to the people that are not gonna pay attention, right? You have to kind of create it for the, the, the person that's gonna be deeply embedded in the experience.

   23. MBMark Boal36:01

       Yeah, you just don't know how big that audience really is until you go out there.

   24. JRJoe Rogan36:04

       Yeah. What, what, what did you mean when you were talking about, um, masculinity, when you were talking about, like, depictions of masculinity?

   25. MBMark Boal36:14

       Um, it's just something that I was thinking about because, um, the, the characters in this... I mean, I've been interested in that for a long time. I mean, the, the, the-... the character in The Hurt Locker is very ... Has a lot of, like, very classically masculine traits. Sergeant James, you know, he's very, like, incredibly brave and stoic. And, in a way, one of the themes of The Hurt Locker was, like, deconstructing that and showing that some of his heroism was, like, a flight from intimacy. 'Cause in the end he, like, leaves his wife and child to go back to fight. And then Zero Dark Thirty was a little different 'cause that had a fe- a very strong female lead. But this, this show has these two guys who are, like, hyper-masculine 'cause they're, they're in, they're meant to be, you know, in CAG and Delta. They're meant to be, like, the, among the best of the best of America's fighting force. So, a- as an opener you look, most people will look at that and be like, "These are, these are real fucking men." And then the question is, like, you probably know this because you have, like, it seems like you have, like, some team guys in your life or, you know, around the office. Most mo- usually depictions of, of, um, soldiers or operators are pretty often pretty, like, cartoony. And I think that right now in the culture there's a lot of talk about, like, a crisis of masculinity. I don't know if any of your guests have ever talked about that. But there's this idea in the culture right now that, um, you know, post 'Me Too', um, men, particularly white men, are, are like kind of adrift in this, like, feminist environment where they feel like they can't be themselves. Like, there's this term 'toxic masculinity'. And we can talk about whether or not that's true and how big of a problem that is, but what I don't think is really debatable is if you look at, like, the net amount of, like, images in the culture, there really aren't that many i- portrayals of men right now that are, that both, where the, where the men both embody, like, classical masculine traits and are also prosocial, like they're not assholes.

   26. JRJoe Rogan38:52

       Right.

   27. MBMark Boal38:54

       And then you-

   28. JRJoe Rogan38:54

       They're not mutually exclusive.

   29. MBMark Boal38:56

       They're ... No, but they are, they're not mutually exclusive, right.

   30. JRJoe Rogan38:58

       Right. But they are often in-
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Good for you. …

   1. MBMark Boal45:00

      too.

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:00

      Good for you.

   3. MBMark Boal45:00

      I just- I just went on TikTok recently.

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:02

      Oh, no.

   5. MBMark Boal45:03

      And I'm- I was like-

   6. JRJoe Rogan45:04

      That's the worst.

   7. MBMark Boal45:04

      ... "Oh, my God." No, it's amazing. Uh.

   8. JRJoe Rogan45:05

      That's Chinese spyware.

   9. MBMark Boal45:07

      I know it is, but, like, there-

   10. JRJoe Rogan45:08

       I mean, it really is.

   11. MBMark Boal45:09

       I know it really is.

   12. JRJoe Rogan45:09

       Like, it really should be illegal.

   13. MBMark Boal45:11

       They're- they're... I mean, everyone's already so up in my shit. I did- I spent two years investigating, preparing a piece on Trump and Russia where I, like, went to Ukraine. Like, my- my- my- that's- dude, that- that horse left the barn a while ago.

   14. JRJoe Rogan45:25

       What was that like?

   15. MBMark Boal45:26

       The Chinese can have what they want.

   16. JRJoe Rogan45:27

       (laughs)

   17. MBMark Boal45:27

       It's getting fucking late. There's nothing in there anyway.

   18. JRJoe Rogan45:30

       What was that like? You- you spent two years?

   19. MBMark Boal45:33

       Yeah. I was trying to make... I wanted to... After 2016, after Trump was elected, I- I did a, uh... It didn't get made, but I did a lot of research into, like, his whole- the whole Russia story. And, um... And then, um, wrote a script and sold it to Showtime, and at the last minute they killed it when Showtime got bought by Viacom.

   20. JRJoe Rogan45:54

       Damn.

   21. MBMark Boal45:55

       Um, that was a... (sighs) Yeah. That hurt.

   22. JRJoe Rogan45:57

       What was- what was your take on that? Like, 'cause, like, I have the most cursory understanding of Trump and Ukraine and Russia and the Biden laptop and Burisma and all that shit. I- I just, I'll watch a few YouTube commentators talking about it or I'll read a few articles in The Atlantic, and I don't know what's real.

   23. MBMark Boal46:16

       Yeah. I mean, I think- I don't- I don't think anybody really got it, um, really got it right. I mean, the- the... It's kinda the problem with the media today. The narrative that started about collusion, um, that- that the left just, like, fucking doubled down on and tripled down on was kinda not really right in the beginning. And then when- when it didn't- when the evidence didn't bear fruit to what they had been proposing, people said, "Well, then there's, like, nothing here." So, I... It's a super complicated story, but- but it's not- it hasn't really been told.

   24. JRJoe Rogan46:55

       Hm.

   25. MBMark Boal46:56

       It's... I mean, that's- that's definitely for sure.

   26. JRJoe Rogan46:58

       Why did they kill that? That seems like a fascinating take. I would love to see your take on that.

   27. MBMark Boal47:02

       I think that, uh, they thought it was, like, probably bad business.

   28. JRJoe Rogan47:06

       Why?

   29. MBMark Boal47:08

       Well, I thought it would be cool to, like, you know, fuck with the sitting president on TV.

   30. JRJoe Rogan47:12

       (laughs)
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   Like, I don't know…

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:00:00

   2. MBMark Boal1:00:00

      Like, I don't know how many people read Taibi's stuff, but he's good. But it's not like-

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:00:04

      Right.

   4. MBMark Boal1:00:04

      ... it's- it's not like America-

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:00:05

      It's not Walter Cronkite.

   6. MBMark Boal1:00:06

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:00:07

      Yeah.

   8. MBMark Boal1:00:07

      And that's- that's a big change.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:00:09

      Yeah, it is a big change.

   10. MBMark Boal1:00:09

       That's a big change. And- and, um, nobody has the answer for that, or that I've ever talked to. That- that fracturing of- of, um, of how n- of, like, social consensus...... like, we can't agree on anything.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:00:26

       Right.

   12. MBMark Boal1:00:27

       That's a fucking problem.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:00:28

       It is a problem.

   14. MBMark Boal1:00:29

       It, it's a really big problem because it means that ... I mean, you need some level of cohesion and agreement to problem solve.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:00:37

       Yeah.

   16. MBMark Boal1:00:38

       Especially when the problems are intricate.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:00:40

       You also need some trust in the facts that are being distributed.

   18. MBMark Boal1:00:44

       Yeah. So, like, like, global warming's, like, an issue. It's a problem and it's, it's like, a real problem. And people can't even agree on, like, the facts of that, which is just so, um ... It just makes you wonder, like, where, where ... I'm, I don't, I don't know that I'm as optimistic as you are, like, where all this goes, 'cause to me it looks like some of these indicators look like what happens when a culture is, like, in decay.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:01:14

       Oh, we're in decay.

   20. MBMark Boal1:01:15

       You know?

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:01:16

       There's no question about that.

   22. MBMark Boal1:01:17

       Okay. (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:01:17

       I just don't think it necessarily has to end terribly. Um, I am, uh ... I'm very optimistic about human beings 'cause I think ultimately even things that I disagree with, like, like woke ideology, I think ultimately what they're trying to do is make the world a better place.

   24. MBMark Boal1:01:34

       What is that? What is, wh- wh- what is woke ideology to you?

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:01:37

       Woke ideology-

   26. MBMark Boal1:01:38

       I mean, I just-

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:01:39

       ... I think-

   28. MBMark Boal1:01:39

       ... I think we need to define it 'cause before-

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:01:41

       Yeah.

   30. MBMark Boal1:01:41

       ... I jump in and ...
6. 1:15:00 – 1:21:29

   (laughs) …

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:15:00

      You had to really have proven your mettle. You were ... It was a different ... They, they wouldn't just let any fucking kid off of TikTok-

   2. MBMark Boal1:15:06

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:15:07

      ... o- on, you know, ABC News to talk about-

   4. MBMark Boal1:15:10

      Right.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:15:10

      ... the way the world works.

   6. MBMark Boal1:15:11

      Right.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:15:12

      But now we're getting that from-

   8. MBMark Boal1:15:13

      Is that true? Or, like, just some random dude on TikTok is talking about how the, the way the world works on ABC?

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:15:18

      Oh, well, they ... If you go to Fox News or if you go to, um, MSNBC, there, there will be on a regular basis very young people w- that are talking about very important issues.

   10. MBMark Boal1:15:32

       Right.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:15:33

       And they may be a YouTube i- influencer. They may be-

   12. MBMark Boal1:15:38

       Wow.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:15:38

       ... a person who r- recently graduated from a university and has some info- information about things. You're ... You know-

   14. MBMark Boal1:15:47

       Right.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:15:48

       ... Noam Chomsky and Gore Vidal or Noam Chomsky and, um, William F. Buckley, I mean, that's, those are two, like, rock solid intellectuals.

   16. MBMark Boal1:15:57

       Oh, yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:15:57

       You know?

   18. MBMark Boal1:15:57

       Chomsky, like, in- like, invented new kinds of, new, like, lines of thought in linguistics.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:16:02

       Yeah.

   20. MBMark Boal1:16:02

       He's like a legit ...

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:16:04

       Yeah. He's a legit linguist.

   22. MBMark Boal1:16:05

       Genius.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:16:06

       Yes. No doubt.

   24. MBMark Boal1:16:07

       And Buckley too, like, in his own way.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:16:09

       Yeah. Yeah. Well, Buckley's ... Yeah. I mean, he was a little bit more problematic, but it's ... They're, they're very, very intelligent people that, that have sort of earned their right to get to that position to debate things, whereas today it's just, "Wah!"

   26. MBMark Boal1:16:24

       (laughs)

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:16:24

       Um, but what, what I think is going to happen, and this is, um, this is neither good nor bad 'cause I think it's inevitable, I think technology is going to ... There's going to be a new technology that emerges that changes things as radically, if not more, than what the internet has done. And I think most likely it's gonna be human neural interfaces.

   28. MBMark Boal1:16:48

       Okay.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:16:48

       And those are around the corner, and they're going to be here before you know it, and they're gonna sneak up on us just like the internet snuck up on us.

   30. MBMark Boal1:16:55

       What, what is that exactly?

Episode duration: 2:51:11