EVERY SPOKEN WORD
155 min read · 30,601 words- 0:00 – 0:12
Intro
- SKSiddharth Kara
(drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music)
- 0:12 – 3:11
Siddharth Kara’s mission: exposing cobalt’s human cost
- JRJoe Rogan
Thank you very much for coming here, man. I really appreciate it.
- SKSiddharth Kara
Oh, thank you for inviting me, Joe.
- JRJoe Rogan
My pleasure. Um, this subject... First of all, the title of your book?
- SKSiddharth Kara
Cobalt Red.
- JRJoe Rogan
And it is out January...
- SKSiddharth Kara
31st.
- JRJoe Rogan
31st.
- SKSiddharth Kara
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And how did you... what... please detail the journey that you went on to, to write this book and why it's of concern to you.
- SKSiddharth Kara
Yeah. Okay, well, um, I started traveling to the Congo, um, five years ago. Um, I've been doing research on slavery and child labor for about 20 years, uh, traveling all around the world documenting slaves and child laborers, human trafficking. Um, and this came across my radar, um, maybe seven years ago. Um, people started talking in the field about cobalt, cobalts in the batteries, it's in the Congo, the conditions are horrible, and I had no idea. I never heard of this. Uh, so I started planning t- to take trips to get down there and I took my first trip, um, back in 2018. Um, my plan was I thought I would try to lay the groundwork to do some academic research, um, and the things I saw there were so appalling and heart-wrenching and urgent that, uh, I changed my approach. I thought, um, "People need to know about this. Um, I need to, I need to write a book." Uh, and so I started planning more trips and I just kept going back. And the reason this is important, Joe, um, and we can dig into this, um, in more depth. Um, throughout the whole history of slavery, I mean, I'm going back centuries, never, never in human history has there been more suffering that generated more profit and was linked to the lives of more people around the world, ever, ever in history than what's happening in the Congo right now. And the reason I say that is this, the cobalt that's being mined in the Congo is in every single lithium-ion rechargeable battery manufactured in the world today. Every smartphone, every tablet, every, uh, uh, laptop and crucially, every electric vehicle. Um, so you and I, we can't function on a day-to-day basis without cobalt and three-fourths of the supply is coming out of the Congo. Um, and it's being mined in appalling heart-wrenching, dangerous conditions. Um, and so that's why people need to know because, uh, by and large, the world doesn't know what's happening in the Congo.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's something that people sort of know peripherally that, you know, they call them conflict minerals and, you know, they know that, that they're coming from an area of the world that's very poor. But I don't think people are aware of how horrible it is. There has been, have been some documentaries that have been done on it and they're all terrifying.
- 3:11 – 5:46
From “conflict minerals” to cobalt: how this crisis evolved
- SKSiddharth Kara
Yeah, so, so conflict minerals was phase one and that's actually not cobalt. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
What is, what, what's term, what does it refer to, conflict minerals?
- SKSiddharth Kara
So, conflict minerals, uh, also called the 3TG minerals are tin, tungsten, tantalum, and gold. Um, and those are in the Eastern Congo. And that, um, catastrophe started around the year 2000, uh, late 1990s, 2000, um, shortly after the Rwandan genocide. Um, the militias moved in and Eastern Congo is sitting on some of the largest reserves in the world of those 3TG minerals, especially tantalum. And those are all used in microprocessors. And you can think back to, you know, around the year 2000, uh, mobile phones first started coming out and gaining traction. I still remember my little StarTAC flip phone that I had from Motorola. You remember that?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm. Sure.
- SKSiddharth Kara
Uh, and all that supply was coming out of Eastern Congo, militias and warlords were, um, forcing the local population at gunpoint, machete point, to dig this stuff out and it was flowing up into the formal supply chain into mostly, um, those first-generation cell phones. And that became known as conflict minerals. Uh, cobalt started later. Cobalt really took off about 10, 12 years ago and it's in another part of the country, in the mining provinces in the southeast of the Congo. And cobalt took off because, uh, it was started to be used in lithium-ion batteries to maximize their charge and stability. Um, and it just so happens that the Congo, just as it was sitting on more than half the world's reserves of coltan and of course, a lot of gold and diamonds and other things, is sitting on more cobalt than the rest of the planet combined. And it's in a small little patch of the Congo, southeastern corner, a part that used to be called Katanga. And, uh, before anybody knew what was happening, Chinese government, Chinese mining companies took control of almost all the big mines, um, and the local population has been displaced, uh, is under duress and they dig in absolutely subhuman gut-wrenching conditions for a dollar a day, feeding cobalt up the supply chain into all the phones, all the tablets, and es- especially electric cars.
- 5:46 – 8:46
Inside the mines: the video evidence and the myth of “clean cobalt”
- JRJoe Rogan
And we're looking at a video now. Jamie, what... is this the mines?
- SKSiddharth Kara
This is his video. So... I think so.
- JRJoe Rogan
This is-
- SKSiddharth Kara
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... so crazy to see.
- SKSiddharth Kara
This is the bottom of the supply chain of your iPhone...... of your Tesla, of your Samsung. I mean, I'm just naming those companies-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- SKSiddharth Kara
Uh, uh, it's all of them, right? All of them. We're not just picking on them. And here's what you need to know, Joe, about this video. I, I was the first outsider to get into this mine. Uh, and that's why it's just a really short video that I w- I was able to take. This is an industrial cobalt mine, where there's not supposed to be one artisanal miner. Now, that's the term used for people who are just digging by hand as opposed to tractors and excavators. There's not supposed to be one here. That's what the story is told at the top of the chain. This mine, and I can name it, it's called Shabara. There's not supposed to be one artisanal miner here, according to the consumer-facing tech companies and EV companies buying this cobalt. Lo and behold, I walk into this place and this is what I see. There's more than 15,000 human beings crammed into that pit, digging by hand. And if you have sound, you hear the mallets, you hear the shouting, you hear the g- the grunts. It, it's a massive humanity. You might expect to see a scene like this. (people clanking) (people grunting)
- JRJoe Rogan
So there's a term that gets used, clean cobalt.
- SKSiddharth Kara
There's no clean cobalt.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's not real?
- SKSiddharth Kara
No, no, it's all marketing. It's all PR. It's a fiction. Just like that place, there's not supposed to be any artisanal mining there. It's all done industrially. That's the s- that's the story told at the top of the chain. And people assume, people, I mean, the, the marketing teams at big tech and EV companies assume, "Well, who's gonna go down there and actually walk into the place and grab a video that shows no, it's actually all raw human force that is clanking that cobalt out of the ground?" So there's no clean cobalt. I, there's not a single company on planet Earth that makes a device that has a rechargeable battery in it that can reliably and justifiably claim that their cobalt isn't coming from sources like that. Uh, and that's the truth that needs to get out there. That's the truth people need to understand. Um, a, uh, because this is a story that goes back generations. There's these fictions told at the top of the chain about what conditions are like at the bottom and truth seekers have to go find that truth, and enlighten civilization so that people, people get a- a- agitated about it and wanna do something about it. So there's no clean cobalt, let's just make that totally abundantly clear. Uh, and anyone that claims otherwise, uh, is either peddling in falsehoods or is recklessly ignorant of the truth.
- 8:46 – 11:27
Why supply-chain purity claims fail: mixing, buying, and laundering cobalt
- JRJoe Rogan
Are there any industrialized cobalt mines that use machinery and don't use slavery and don't use child labor and don't use these people that live in unimaginable poverty?
- SKSiddharth Kara
I've never seen one, and I've been to almost all the major industrial cobalt mines. A- a- here's why I say that. Number one, they all or almost all will have scenes like that on them. Thousands of individuals clanking away for a dollar or two a day, okay? They don't have, uh, safety equipment, all that stuff, that cobalt's toxic, toxic to breathe. And they're breathing it in all day.
- JRJoe Rogan
No masks?
- SKSiddharth Kara
No masks.
- JRJoe Rogan
No masks, no filtration systems?
- SKSiddharth Kara
No gloves, no... Uh, half those guys are in flip-flops. All right? So, um, uh, almost all the industrial mines will have scenes like that. So that's number one. Uh, they'll say there are no artisanal miners there, no children there. And if you, like, zoom in, you'll see that amongst that sea of humanity, there are thousands of kids. Teenage boys, in this case, 'cause that requires a certain amount of force to, to, to clank away in that pit. Um, number two, there are hundreds of other artisanal mining sites scattered in the mining provinces outside of industrial mines. There are artisanal miners in the industrial mines, and then just on the other side of the fence, there'll be a sea of humanity digging, uh, there as well, because it's not like at the fence, the ore body stops. There's copper, cobalt, other things outside as well. So there'll be hundreds of sites where there are hundreds of thousands of people across the mining provinces digging. Um, all that production is sold right back to the industrial mining companies. So it enters their supply chain as well. And then so they take what they extract with industrial equipment, artisanal miners inside the mine, artisanal miners, including children outside the mine, it all gets dumped together into the same batch of acids to process and then flows up the chain. And again, no one can reasonably claim that their cobalt, even if they say, "That industrial mine, totally clean. Don't believe what Siddharth is saying, that's a, that's a made-up fake video," they can't demonstrate reliably that all the other cobalt being dug up by kids in thousands of sites across the mining provinces isn't also flowing into their supply chain.
- 11:27 – 12:57
Global dependence and the EV demand explosion
- JRJoe Rogan
Phew. Is there another source of cobalt in the world that's ethically supplied?
- SKSiddharth Kara
So, um, last year, so, uh, 2021 is the last year there's data, about 72%, almost three-fourths of the world's supply of cobalt came out of a small patch of the Congo. And then there's like, 3% Russia, 3% Australia, 3% Morocco. You know, there's... Everyone else is 3%. Um, and I don't know what the conditions are there. I imagine in Australia, mining follows standards of dignity and decency and labor and sustainability and so on. Um-... uh, but there's not enough cobalt outside of the Congo to meet demand. And demand projections are, uh, four or five, 600% increase in cobalt demand in the next decade or two, primarily being driven by adoption of electric vehicles. Each battery pack in an EV requires up to 10 kilograms of refined cobalt. That's 1,000 times what's required for a smartphone. So, huge demand, uh, as the world transitions from, uh, internal combustion engines to, uh, electric vehicles, which is a net good thing, except for the people in the Congo. Uh, so there's not enough other cobalt out there. Even if all the non-Congo cobalt was perfectly sourced, there's not enough other cobalt out there to meet demand.
- 12:57 – 15:06
Corporate awareness, PR responses, and the reality on the ground
- JRJoe Rogan
These companies that we talked about that use all this stuff, whether it's electric vehicle companies or cell phone manufacturers, obviously they're aware of this.
- SKSiddharth Kara
Yes, no question. They have to be.
- JRJoe Rogan
Have they made any attempts to mitigate this in any way?
- SKSiddharth Kara
The truth, Joe, is no, not sufficient efforts. Most of what is done is PR statements, marketing. Um, all these companies will say, "We have zero-tolerance policies on child labor. We ensure standards of dignity and human rights for every member of our supply chain, down to the mining level." They'll all say this, "Down to the mining level." Um, and they say it, uh, and they may throw some money at the odd NGO or, uh, coalition or alliance that's meant to be working on these things. Nothing's actually happening on the ground. Uh, a- a- a-, and that's what my book will demonstrate, you know, as, as I take the reader on the journey from place to place, mine to mine. Um, there's this fiction that exists outside of the Congo of what companies are doing and what the conditions are like, and then there's the reality. Um, underneath the- those layers of obfuscation, there's the reality. There's the truth on the ground. Um, and not one company, not one business alliance, not one, uh, entity up the chain is doing remotely enough to ensure that the- the dignity and human rights, uh, of the people of the Congo, not to mention the environment, because all the mining companies there are just polluting and clear-cutting forests to build and expand mines. They're not doing nearly enough to respect the people and earth of the Congo, um, while we outside enjoy our, you know, renewable, gadget-driven lifestyles.
- 15:06 – 23:57
What shocked Kara most: injuries, tunnel collapses, and “modern Leopold” dynamics
- JRJoe Rogan
When you first started researching this book and when you first were aware of this issue, what was the difference between your initial perception versus what you found?
- SKSiddharth Kara
So, going in, um, I was expecting to see some child labor, um, uh, poor working conditions, um, uh, and, and probably some poor environmental, uh, practices. And that first trip hit me like a thunderclap. A- and I've seen a lot, okay? I mean, I've done research in more than 50 countries in the grit, in the grime, in the misery, in the sub-... the underbelly of humanity, and it hit me like a thunderclap because the scale was beyond anything I would have imagined. I mean, there are hundreds of thousands of people, tens of thousands of children caked in toxic grime and filth, digging this, uh, m- vital mineral out of the ground in medieval conditions. It's like going back in time. You know, you imagine what mining was like three or 400 years ago, uh, or the early days of coal mining. You know, it's that bad, uh, and worse, because we're supposed to be living in this enlightened era. Uh, so the scale of it shocked me. The severity shocked me. Um, to see kids up to their shoulders caked in this filth and grime and toxic, I mean, to see teenagers walking around with babies on their back, all inhaling this toxic, um, cobalt dust, um, to see them m- barely scraping by on a dollar a day, $2 a day. And then as I, as I interviewed these workers, um, I use the term worker, they're not workers at all. They're oppressed, degraded slaves. Um, as I interviewed them, the, the level of injury, uh, broken legs, shattered spines, um, toxic contamination, um, cancers, birth defects, uh, uh, the- what's happening to the people there, and then the, the, the most heart-wrenching thing of all, there's probably, um, 10 to 15,000 tunnels. I think I even sent you guys one or two videos of, of what these tunnels look like. Um, the artisanal miners will dig tunnels 30, 40 meters down, uh, to get to some of the higher-grade deposits. Um, and they don't have supports, rock bolts, ventilation shafts, anything like that. And those tunnels collapse. Every week in the Congo, a tunnel collapses. And everyone who's down there, 30, 40, 50 men and boys, boys meaning kids, are buried alive. And when I started hearing those stories, and I heard them on my first trip, I...... it just ripped me apart because I thought, "This is the bottom of trillion-dollar supply chains?" When I plug in my smartphone, I don't have an electric car, but if I did, when I plug that in, I'm plugging in that level of suffering and death. I mean, I can't imagine a more horrid way of dying than being buried alive, and they're down there trying to get that dollar or two because that's the difference between eating and surviving and not. Uh, a- and that, that's what I wasn't anticipating, just the s- level of severity. And if your, if your listeners are familiar with, you know, what it was like in colonial Africa and in the Congo during the Belgian times, I mean, I thought I was back in, in King Leopold's regime where there's just utter disregard for the humanity of, of the people in the Congo. All that matters is the loot. All that matters is the loot, the resource. Get it out, make money, and to hell with the population, to hell with the people there. Uh, they're either a, uh, a- efficient slave labor force or they're just in the way. Uh, but there's loot in the dirt and we need that loot. Uh, and that's, that's the dynamic down there.
- JRJoe Rogan
(exhales) This must've been so difficult for you to, to grasp and to report on, and just to, like, what was it like for you to just experience this?
- SKSiddharth Kara
Uh, Joe, it's, you know, I haven't... Actually, this is the first time I'm talking about it, like, in any sort of extended way. I mean, I wrote my book, um, much of the pandemic was me just, was me writing, uh, a- and, and that was hard, you know, 'cause I, there's a lot I had to relive. Um, uh, I take the reader on a journey, um, uh, you know, in college we all read Heart of Darkness, Conrad, and that's the first Belgian horror, uh, Congo horror, uh, uh, uh, you know, was the, For Rubber. Uh, and, and, uh, I'm gonna answer your question, but there's a painfully powerful bit of history here that people sh- people need to know. So Leopold got his hands on the Congo in 1885, personal property. He owned the whole thing as personal property, King Leopold of the Belgians. Um, and the, uh, car, Benz invented the car 1885, internal combustion engine. It had, um, uh, steel-clad wooden wheels, couldn't go very fast before those things fell apart. And then in 1888, this chap, Dunlop, invents a rubber tire, and now the whole car revolution is taking off because you can actually drive those things far and fast. And the Congo happened to be sitting on one of the largest rubber tree forests in the world. So Leopold deployed this, uh, mercenary army to enslave, uh, terrorize, and torture the population to get rubber out of the forest, the loot, bring it up the chain, and turn it into tires. And he w- he walked away with billions of dollars doing this. Um, but that was the first car revolution that led to horror in the Congo. And Conrad was in the Congo in 1890, he saw this, that's what inspired Heart of Darkness. So now we come across the second car revolution coming to electric vehicles. And wouldn't you know it that once again the Congo is sitting on more of this ne- necessary crucial mineral, cobalt, than the rest of the world combined? And it's that same thing happening all over again. Um, latest chapter. And it, bearing witness to that and knowing what became, came before, right? That this isn't just one isolated thing, "Oh, new problem, let's fix it." That it's been happening for generations to the people in that part of the world, in the heart of Africa. Um, having that in mind and, and bearing witness to that has been just devastating. And, uh, as I said, I ha- I've not really been talking about it. I've kind of feared having to talk about it because there are memories that I've kept really deep down, except when I wrote. Um, so I structured my book a bit like Heart of Darkness. You know, you go upriver to find Kurtz, and Kurtz reveals a certain truth. Um, there's one road in the mining provinces that goes up-road, and I take the reader up that road to an event that I think reveals the truth. Uh, and it just gets darker and bleaker as you travel up-road. And, uh, the things I've saw, I saw and the things I've seen, man, they just, they hurt. They hurt because I know it's like v- ... Uh, what kind of economy can transform the degradation of innocent, impoverished children into shiny phones and cars? You know, uh, a- and we are living lives that are so disconnected yet intimately connected to that horror. Um, and it, it's just been... L- look, if, if what I do can give voice to what's happening there, to the people living there who are otherwise crying into an abyss, then it's all worth it to me. Uh, and if some good comes of it, uh, God willing, there will be some good that comes of this journey, um, it'll be worth it to me. But yeah, to answer your question, it's, it's taken a toll.
- 23:57 – 30:08
Gaining access and staying alive: guides, cover stories, and bribery checkpoints
- JRJoe Rogan
I can't even imagine. And when you first started doing this, how did you gain access? How did you get in there? And how much resistance did you experience in trying to re- report on this? It, it seems like it would be a very dangerous thing for you to do because the consequences of this information getting out there.
- SKSiddharth Kara
Oh, yeah. Yeah, it, it... Uh, these are heavily guarded secrets.... uh, 'cause there's so much money at stake. Uh, and one does not just waltz into the Congo's mining provinces and start poking around and asking questions (laughs) . Um, that's a one-way ticket to a very bleak outcome. Um, I think... You know, it took me 18 years of other research into slavery and child r- labor to be ready for this. Uh, uh, if, if I had come across this in year one or five or whatever, I'd have botched it up, uh, a- a- and, or not even known how to go about it. Um, uh, but the, the most important thing is ground relationships. Um, and so I took some time building ground relationships with people who could, um, guide me safely, get me into mining areas safely, uh, who I could put my life in their hands a- and know that, uh, they were gonna use good judgment. Um, uh, so it's about trust and relationships on the ground, um, first and foremost. Um, and, and then, you know, through those relationships, I was d- able to get into, um, um, deep into the mining areas, mines that are controlled by militias, mines that are controlled by the Republican Guard. I mean, you have every face and facet of, uh, gigantic industrial mines. Um, they are as big, as big as a European city, uh, and then just, just swaths of open terrain that are being dug up by local villagers. You know, you have everything down there. Um, but the ones that are most heavily guarded, the big mines, you know, some of them I never got into. Try as I might, I could never g- I mean, there's always the, they're called FARDC, the, the army down there, and they, they're just guys with Kalashnikovs. There'll be 50 of them a- at, at the entranceway and you... I, I, I never got in, but I would talk to the people who worked there back in their villages. Um, and some of the industrial mines I did get into, and of course, the open terrain artisanal sites I could get to, but it's all about, um... I had to be very careful. Um, um, fortunately, um, there are a good number of Indians in the Congo, so I could blend in, um, uh, and didn't really stick out. Um, uh, the- so that helped, uh, in my movements in the mining provinces. Um, I traveled very lean. Um, oftentimes we'd have to move in a hurry, um, from one place to another, one village to another, uh, everything, uh, I was willing to leave behind. I had my passport Velcroed to my calf muscle (laughs) , you know, like...
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) .
- SKSiddharth Kara
Like, uh, I, if we had to go in a hurry, um, and once or twice we did, that I needed that. Like, I, everything else can, is dis- is, is expendable, but you don't want to get stuck in the Congo without, you know, your documents. Um, I mean, the number of checkpoints. I said there's just one road, and that thing is so heavily guarded and the number of checkpoints, just pull up, "Let me see your documents. Let me see this. Let me see that." Um, "Go through your bags, go through your stuff and then, you know, move along." Eventually you might have to, uh, offer someone, they call it a cold drink. Uh, "If you give me a cold drink, I can go through." First time someone said that to me, I said, "Now, where the hell do we get a cold drink out here? I mean, we're in the middle of nowhere." "No, no, cold drink means, uh, payage toll."
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- SKSiddharth Kara
(laughs) See?
- JRJoe Rogan
That's interesting.
- SKSiddharth Kara
You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Euphemism.
- SKSiddharth Kara
Yeah. So, um, uh, so it's, it's, I- I- I had to rely on local contacts to get, to, to get around and use my own experience and judgment about how far to push, uh, and when not to push.
- JRJoe Rogan
What, what kind- what was... What did you use as an excuse to be there?
- SKSiddharth Kara
So yeah, I had a range of cover stories. Um, uh, when I'd go into mining areas, um, you know, th- as I mentioned, there's some Indians down there. Um, some of them are mineral traders. Some of them are laborers. Many of them run hotels and guest houses. So I could be a guy, Indian guy looking to get into, uh, mineral trading, um, looking to, uh, invest in transportation. There's so much, um, need, need meaning industrial need to, to get trucks and transport all this stuff that's coming out of the ground, uh, out of the country and up the supply chain. Um, uh, with colleagues, uh, or government officials that I met, I was myself, which is a researcher from America. You know, I, I was upfront about it. Uh, uh, and I needed to be. There were times when I needed stamps and signatures of government officials, um, uh, to keep myself safe. Uh, and by that I mean in the, in, in the scenario, in the worst possible scenarios where I'm in a remote mine and there's some guys with Kalashnikovs and machetes coming after me, um, one of, uh, one of the first things my guide said is, "We need to get the stamp and signature of someone from the governor's office, uh, on your documentation so we can show that because that means you're, uh, you've got permission, you're under the watchful eye of the governor and so they can't kill you, they're just gonna send you away." And that, that advice saved my life on more than one occasion, um, uh, h- having that stamp and signature. And so, so with government people, I was who I was. With NGOs, I was who I was. Uh, when I got into mining areas, um, you know, to get access or to get into cobalt marketplaces, I would be, maybe be a mineral trader or some investor or someone looking to help transport minerals and, um, but yeah, those were, those were my stories.
- 30:08 – 37:49
Militia confrontation: the stamp that prevented a deadly outcome
- JRJoe Rogan
So as you entered into this world, were you aware that you needed all these signatures? How did you go about getting them?
- SKSiddharth Kara
No, I, I, I had no idea. So one of my, one of my guides on my first trip, uh, before we went into the cobalt-... you know, into the mining areas. You land into a town called Lubumbashi, which is the head of a province called, uh, Haut-Katanga Province, old colonial town, now it's the mining capital in the southeastern part of the country. So, that's where, you know, there's some government buildings. And, um, as I talked through my plan what I wanted to try to achieve, um, what I wanted to try to see, um, my very first guide said, "Okay, we need to go and just... you have to explain this to someone in the governor's office and hope that they'll give you your signature, their signature and stamp." On, uh, it's called engagement de prise en charge, um, commitment to, um, uh, protect, um, uh, documentation. Um, uh, he said, "Just go and make the case and try to get that stamp and signature, because we'll need that. We may need that. If you wanna go into these places, you- you're- you- that will save your life." Uh, he was right. On that very first trip, uh, I was in a- a mining area north of a town called, uh, Kambove. Kids everywhere. Um, we had done our sort of recon that it was clear of militias that day. You know, there was always planning when I went into these areas, pre-planning, um, to minimize risk. And I was talking to some kids. Um, it was d- two- uh, two girls, they were probably 14 and 15, and, you know, th- they each had babies on their backs as they were in this trench, digging cobalt. Um, a- and I was walking down the trench to a group of boys. This one boy has a t- T-shirt that said AIG. And I thought to myself, first of all, that there's an AIG T-shirt out here, you know, blew my mind. A- and I remembered, like, that- th- that was th- one of the big financial companies had to be bailed out in the 2008 financial crisis. I- $150 billion or something, and I thought, "Man, like, that kinda money here, you know, what a difference it could make." Um, anyway, so I was talking to those kids and suddenly there was gunshots. Uh, a- a- and t- they knew it was happening. They all d- jumped into a trench. And I turn around, it's me and my guide, and there's a pack of guys with Kalashnikovs, machetes, running at us. And they operate, these militias operate in little units. There'll be a guy, you know, the, uh, head of the group, uh, and then there's maybe, you know, 10, 15 guys. They called them militia, they call them commandos, various names. Um, so they started coming at us, um, and immediately started roughing me up, grabbed my backpack, threw my stuff on the ground, um, started kicking us around, demanded to see my phone to see if I were s- taking photos. Like, they know that there are people who are trying to figure out what's the truth around here. And, um, I looked at my guide, eh, the blood drained from his face, and he very quietly and calmly told them, "He has some, he has a signature." Um, and I, I, my stuff was all on the dirt at that point. Um, I found the folder that had that precious piece of paper under the boot of one of these guys. I pulled it out, showed it to the commandos' leader. Um, that kind of calmed them down enough that they let us, they, you know, walk out of there. Uh, but it would have gone the other way. Uh, but my guide knew, you know, that's what I mean, like, you, it's about those ground relationships. People know their world. Like, I can't go in presuming to know that world, how to navigate it, how to be safe, how not to cause harm inadvertently. I mean, all these things go through a- a- a researcher's mind. Um, but he knew that we might need that, and it turns out, um, on that day, man, uh, uh, you and I wouldn't be having this conversation, I think, if, uh, if I hadn't, uh, followed his advice.
- JRJoe Rogan
How did you get the confidence of these people to let you do this? And are there people there that are sympathetic to what you're doing because they want the truth to come out?
- SKSiddharth Kara
Yeah. You said it. There are, uh, you know, there's not much civil society in the Congo, um, but there is a s- there is a small sm- civil society there, you know, local activists, little NGOs. They have to be very careful, um, in how they operate, uh, um, so they don't get on the wrong side of the wrong officials, especially the mining sector. Mining is everything to Congo. Uh, 70%, 80% of the government's budget is coming from mining. Um, uh, so, um, uh, I, I just speak from the heart that I, I wanted find a way to help you amplify your voices, 'cause no one's listening. No one even knows to look over there. Um, or not enough people know to look over there, let alone take an interest and start listening. And I'm here to help bridge the gap, to form some connective tissue between the whole world out there that cannot function without you, and, and the truth that you're experiencing. Uh, and that's why I'm here, so I'm in your hands. Um, you tell me what to do, uh, I'll do it. You tell me how to stay safe, that's what I'll do. Uh, uh, uh, I'd like to see the truth. I'd like to talk to people. I wanna bring those voices to the outside world, but I'm in your hands. Um, and I think just speaking from the heart, um, uh, and conveying my genuine interest, above all to do no harm, uh, and to try and, uh, uh, A, shine light in this heart of darkness, and then B, bring those voices out of the country.... um, to a broader world. Um, and that's what they want. You know? The- the- the- the worst feeling in the world, or one of the worst feelings in the world, has to be- to be in the midst of immense suffering and feel that no one can see you, no one can hear you, no one even cares, I mean, to cry into silence. Um, uh, and so the- to have a chance to feel that someone will eventually hear you, I think, you know, that's what I came hoping, uh, to try and achieve. And, um, there were enough guides, enough people, enough locals who- who trusted me. I mean, I had to trust them, but, um, m- m- the more important trust went from them to me. Because I could be someone who was reckless, who was careless, who was after his own thing, um, who was in it for- for me, uh, um, and could cause so much more harm, um, uh, or- or just take from them and- and leave. Uh, and that's not me. And I think that, you know, as I developed relationships, more and more people, uh, although it's a small number, m- you know, felt that, and felt that, um, kinship with me.
- 37:49 – 1:05:11
Why the truth is suppressed: diffusion of responsibility and structural racism
- JRJoe Rogan
So when these commandos came in and they were shooting guns and- and screaming at you, were they concerned that you were there to expose the conditions?
- SKSiddharth Kara
That's right. Um, you know, the, uh, the, uh, the big anxiety for everyone up the chain is the truth.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- SKSiddharth Kara
And, um, so many people are playing their part in suppressing the truth. You know? It's not just the marketing departments at consumer-facing tech and EV companies, they're doing their part to suppress the truth, but it's all the way down to little commando units and militias that have their stake in this game and they wanna suppress the truth. Um, uh, and they're often gonna be- they'll often be on the payroll of a mining company, you know, um, keep people out. Because what happened was, you know, just like I first heard about this probably back in 2015, um, and it took me a couple of years to figure it out and then get in there, you know, in 2018, you know, there'd- so- journalists have been down there. There have been some journalists who have gotten in there and there have been some stories written. Um, especially around 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, those few years, you know, people were getting in there and getting a little piece of it, and coming out and writing a story. Um, and so people on the ground got more anxious about that, so there's a lot of, um, uh, uh, anxiety about journalists, researchers, NGOs kind of coming in and trying to find the truth. And- and so there's- the level of, um, security, especially in the last few years, has- has, uh, increased significantly to try to keep- to keep people out. Because the minute, you know, uh, once the- the voices of the people of the Congo start emerging and, uh, a book or a documentary or, um, uh, stories get written, wha- uh, there'll be a critical mass, right? Eventually it'll pass some threshold where enough people say, "Wait a minute, what are you talking about? What's going on here?" Um, I don't wanna- I don't wanna feel that when I plug in my phone, there's some kid in the Congo dying for it, or that here I am trying to make a green choice buying this electric car, but the patch of Congo where these minerals come from, the trees have been clear-cut, the rivers have been polluted, the air's- air's been polluted. Like, why- why is my green choice black and red for them? Um, that doesn't seem right. So no one up the chain wants that day to arrive, or they wanna postpone it as long as possible. I think it's inevitable, uh, that eventually, uh, the companies, uh, atop the cobalt chain will have to, uh, accept, uh, the truth and then respond to it. Um, but they wanna push that out as far as possible because, uh, well, for reasons I don't actually understand. And I'll tell you that candidly, Joe. I don't understand why these companies... Because as we- as we agreed, they all know what's happening down there, that's why they've got their marketing departments on it. They all know what's happening down there. Why is it that they just don't wanna solve the problem? I- it's not complicated. It would probably cost them a rounding error on their balance sheet to just invest in treating those people with the same respect and dignity as the people in corporate headquarters. They're all part of the same chain. It's not that the cobalt goes to the moon, it goes to these companies, so they're linked, but they don't accept responsibility for them. And for some reason, they feel it's okay to treat them and the world around them like trash. And I think deep down inside, no one will ever come out and admit it, but I think there's only one answer to the question, "Why haven't they fixed the problem yet?" And that is because it's poor, wretched Africans that no one cares about. That's the truth. And that's been the truth for centuries, hasn't it? Uh, uh, going back to the slave trade, going back to the col- colonization of Africa. It's- it's in- it's embedded in the framework and structure of a global economy that, again, it's about the loot.... and the money. And the people there are either fit to be brutes or to be moved out of the way. Uh, eh, that's the only answer to the question why companies that are rolling in profits beyond mag- beyond measure wouldn't say, "Hey, hey, the bottom of this supply chain, like this thing that's in our batteries that we really, really need, um, the conditions there are pretty bad and that, that's not acceptable, because we claim that we uphold human rights and dignity and sustainability all the way down our supply chain. Let's send a few people down there and, and work on this." Has, has one CEO of any of these companies ever stepped foot at the bottom of their own supply chain to see for themselves what's happening there? I mean, why is it that I had to go? I'm not running a tech company. I'm not running an EV company, yet I felt somehow responsible for what's happening down there. How come they don't feel responsible enough to take a trip, one trip on their private jet down there to see for themselves, "Oh, wait a minute, uh, there are thousands of people in this artisinal mi- uh, in this industrial mine, uh, working in, like, ancient, old world miserable conditions. Let's do something about that. How about some PPE for everybody? Um, how about a reasonable wage so they don't have to bring their kids into work just to survive? Uh, how about eight hours a day instead of 12? Um, how about we invest in some schools and some public health clinics while we're here so that kids can go to school? Um, why don't we help electrify this place?" Do you know that that part of the Congo, that is home to more of the most crucial mineral for rechargeable energy than the rest of the planet combined, doesn't even have electricity? You go around in the villages, there's just ... th- there's no electricity. Uh, I mean, we can go on and on, right? So, so the point is they need to understand it, accept it, accept responsibility for these people at the bottom of the chain, treat them in the same way that they treat people in headquarters.
- JRJoe Rogan
Have you had any conversations with any of these people in tech or in EV vehicles?
- SKSiddharth Kara
Uh, I hope, I hope I will be invited to do so maybe after this book comes out and, um, uh, a- and if it gets enough attention, um, I, I will gladly, gladly engage on solving this problem. I am a humble servant to any company that wants to just understand and fix their cobalt supply chain.
- JRJoe Rogan
Is there any possibility that the CEOs and the people in upper management are not aware of the scope of this problem?
- SKSiddharth Kara
It's hard for me to imagine that they're not aware.
- JRJoe Rogan
So do you think it's just a convenient ignorance or is it a diffusion of responsibility, because they came into this company when all this already existed?
- SKSiddharth Kara
Yeah, interesting question. I think, um ... I think some of it is business as usual until someone forces them to think differently. Um, uh, I, I think another part of it, um, is it's easy not to accept responsibility because they're so far away and there's so many levels in the supply chain between toxic pit in the Congo and shiny showroom in New York and London and, you know, Beijing, right? The- they're separated by layers and layers, uh, of a supply chain. I mean, that's how the global economy works. Um, so some of it is, "Well, uh, it's their responsibility," and they point the finger downstream, right? Um, the battery maker should worry about this, and the battery maker will point and say, "No, the cobalt refinery should worry about it." And the cobalt refinery will say, "No, the mining company should worry about it." And the mining company will say, "No, the Congolese government should worry about it," and on down the list until the last finger is pointed at the kid caked in filth in the pit. So no one's accepting responsibility. Um, I think ... Look, I think let's be charitable and say maybe the CEOs of these companies aren't completely aware of the scale and severity. I certainly wasn't when I first went there. Uh, it wasn't my business to know it. Uh, but okay, let's say maybe they are not aware of the s- the, the absolute scale and severity of it, um, although they should be. Uh, all right, now that the truth is out, let's see are they willing to actually work on this problem? And I s- I will ... Any CEO wants to go see what the bottom of their cobalt supply chain looks like, I, I will take them. I will take them. Come with me, we'll fly economy or I'll go in your jet, we'll go comfortably. Either way, I will take you. Let's, let's go down and see this is where your cobalt's coming from. Now that you've seen the truth, um, let's fix this problem, because they're ... These companies have geniuses who have revolutionized our lives. Solving dignity at the bottom of a cobalt supply chain, uh, is a simple proposition relative to the problems they probably solve every day.
- JRJoe Rogan
But they would have to address it en masse. They would have to address it very publicly. They would have to admit to this problem, and they'd have to publicly state it and make everyone aware, the consumer aware, that these things that we enjoy that make our lives so convenient, these technological marvels that have revolutionized our world, at the bottom of that-
- SKSiddharth Kara
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... is slave labor and child labor.
- SKSiddharth Kara
Yeah. I, I, I think you put your finger o- on something very important, because the first question-... they would be asked is, "Well, how long have you known?"
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- SKSiddharth Kara
Right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, and that's the problem.
- SKSiddharth Kara
That's the problem.
- JRJoe Rogan
And so to admit it would be to admit guilt in at least some way.
- SKSiddharth Kara
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Or willful ignorance or a pretending that they don't know.
- SKSiddharth Kara
Uh, yeah, that's right, all of the above, plus a callous disregard for their fellow human being. You know, that-
- JRJoe Rogan
Because it's not shoved in their face.
- SKSiddharth Kara
It's not... That's right, that's right, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Because they show up at Cupertino, and they're in this beautiful industrialized building, and-
- SKSiddharth Kara
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... everything's technologically magnificent and...
- SKSiddharth Kara
Isn't it fascinating, the riches that stand atop the shoulders of some of the poorest and most degraded people in the world?
- JRJoe Rogan
It's bizarre, but it speaks to the human condition. It speaks to what we are. We're so complicated and twisted.
- SKSiddharth Kara
Yeah. Yeah, we are. Um, and it's not like this is a new phenomenon, right? I mean, riches have been built, uh, across the global north on the shoulders of degraded people in the, in the global south for centuries.
- 1:05:11 – 1:31:47
Paths forward: PPE, wages, community investment—and cobalt-free batteries
- SKSiddharth Kara
So, okay, v- a couple important, important things here. Um, I don't think it would cost all that much for them to solve this problem very quickly.
- JRJoe Rogan
Have you run numbers?
- SKSiddharth Kara
I mean, let's, let's look at what's, what's the source of the harm, okay? It's peasants and kids digging in unsafe conditions for a dollar or two a day, um, suffering injury, toxic contamination, and death. So, uh, how do we address, uh, those harms? What's the low-hanging fruit? All right. PPE, gloves, hard hats, masks, goggles, whatever. How much can that possibly cost? Um, a decent wage so that parents don't have to bring their kids into work just to survive. All right? Instead of a dollar or two a day, people in that part of the world can probably reasonably survive on $10 a day. A day, not an hour. A day. That's not gonna add up to too much. Uh, then you don't have artisanal tunnel digging. Let the excavators do it. You know, use proper heavy equipment. Well, there's equipment down there. If they need a little more, how much, how much could that really cost? And you go down the list of these things that would help solve a lot of the harms and then you add in a few things like invest in the local community that we avail of, like build some schools, some public health clinics and so on. It's not gonna a- add up to that much. I mean, it would probably add up to what a company like Apple makes in a day. And you'd solve huge parts of the problem, not all of it-... but a lot of the harm and injury that's being suffered could be avoided with some simple steps.
- JRJoe Rogan
Has anyone ever come to Tim Cook and presented him with this evidence and with this information and, and asked him to comment on it?
- SKSiddharth Kara
Uh, I don't know. Um, I'm ... That's a really good question. Uh, I would love the opportunity to present it to him, uh, a- and ask him to comment on it. It probably wouldn't get to him. You probably wouldn't get past the PR department, uh, eh, a- and the CSR team that would say, "No, we're ... You know, Apple is very aware and, uh, our, our supply chain is clean and we-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- SKSiddharth Kara
... we have independent audits," and so on, and that would be the end of the discussion, right? I mean, um, but we have to get past that fiction. A- an- and I hope that some of what I'm doing and what others, uh, no doubt will do, um, after my book comes out will, will move us past that, you know, just that f- that, that vacant, vapid response that, "Yeah, we're aware that there are some problems in the Congo. It's a poor country. We ... Uh, our supply chain is audited and everything is, you know, is, is A-okay, right as rain." Uh, and we have to move ... Uh, we just have to move past that with truth. And then, and then the question is, yeah, uh, um, will they engage? Would Tim Cook, Sundar Pichai, Satya Nadella, Elon, the rest of these and all of them ... I don't know the names of all the CEOs or the ones that come off the top of my head, but will they engage on it? Will they say, "Okay, all right. Um, truth accepted. Uh, problem acknowledged. Uh, help us. Uh, help us."? A- and I and, and many others, I'm sure, would be only so happy. Um, and, and look, it should start with a s- a trip. They just need to go and see for themselves.
- JRJoe Rogan
But they can't, right?
- SKSiddharth Kara
Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, how much resistance would they experience? I mean, you're talking about going in there with ... where there's commandos and Kalashnikovs guarding these secrets.
- SKSiddharth Kara
Yeah. Fair, fair enough. Fair enough. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
No, I mean, I'm, I'm not even giving them an excuse. I'm just, just sort of identifying the scope of what would be involved, because it ... this would somehow impede on profits, and a lot of these companies are run by Chinese corporations as well.
- SKSiddharth Kara
On ... Uh, yes. Yeah. No, no question. No question. That's a big part of the problem, and we don't have to mince our words. W- we don't have to mince our words about it. Um, they are a big part of the problem. Their government, their companies, the way they do business, um, uh, is a b- is a big part of the problem. Um, but everybody knows it. You know ... Our tech companies and EV comp- ... They know who they're in business with, right? They're not, they're not oblivious to, um, how business is done in China and by Chinese companies on the ground in the Congo. Uh, part of the problem is there's not even one US mining company in the Congo, um, to sh- to maybe show by a better example of how to do things. Uh, that's part of the problem. Um, it's, it's almost completely China plus Glencore, uh, a- and one or two other companies, maybe a Canadian one and so on, but it's all ... You know, last time I was there, there are 19 major industrial copper, cobalt complexes. 15 are run by Chinese companies. Chinese companies means Chinese government. Um, and Glencore has a few more, and then, and then that's it.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then you're dealing with the same issues, because these companies, these corporations are largely controlled by the government of China, which is also responsible for the forced labor camps and for the-
- SKSiddharth Kara
Absolutely.
- JRJoe Rogan
... the treatment of the Uighurs and all the issues.
- SKSiddharth Kara
Well, we have to decide, you know. I mean, we meaning American companies have to decide, you know, what's, what's the threshold? At what point, um, uh, uh, do they have to make decisions around, um, their corporate moral record? Y- you know, they know what's happening in China and, um, uh, with Chinese companies in other parts of the world. Um, if I know it, they all know it, right? Um, uh, but there's just so much money at stake, there's an anxiety about, you know, saying, "Well, we really need things to be done better." Um, they just say it. Uh, uh, "Don't worry. You know, everything is audited. Everything is okay." They just keep saying it and saying it and saying it. And all right, so, um, could CEOs get down there? All right. Yes, I, I take the point. That would be a little challenge. I could probably still arrange something. I could get them somewhere. We can ... If I can do it and I'm, you know, of average intelligence and average means and resources, um, you know, we can get some people down there to see some truth. All right? And then I, I'll go the rest of the way. I'll go the rest of the way. And while we're there, while we're there, even if they just hang out in a hotel in Lubumbashi with their teams, you know, uh, they will hear about a tunnel collapse within the first week. I'll bring in some kids, uh, covered in filth and muck for them to see, digging their cobalt. How about talk to some families? We'll just go to a few villages or I'll bring them to the hotel. Just talk to some families. Let them tell you the truth. You know, yeah, they can't g- go running around militia mines. Uh, fair enough, but they can still get in country and see the truth and hear the truth. I can arrange it for them. Their own teams could probably arrange it for them, right? It just needs to be something they wanna do, that they care enough about the bottom of their chain. They created this chain. No one put a gun to their head and said, "Put cobalt in the battery." No one forced them to do it. Uh, it just so happens that helps the battery maintain thermal stability and have maximum energy density, which means you don't have to plug your stuff in as often and your car can have a longer range, electric car-... uh, that's why cobalt's so precious. Um, and, uh, you mentioned alternate tech. No question, people are working on cobalt-free batteries because of the conversation we're having right now.
- JRJoe Rogan
How much headway is being made in that direction?
- SKSiddharth Kara
Um, there's progress, for sure, for sure. Um, uh, 'cause even if it weren't coming out of a war-torn country through child labor and misery and, and, and so on, it's expensive, you know. And even from trying to reduce the cost of a battery cell, um, th- people are working on cobalt-free chemistries and there are options out there, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
What are those options?
- SKSiddharth Kara
So there's things called solid state batteries. Um, there are formulations that either use much less cobalt. Um, there's some lithium, uh, iron phosphate is another formulation that doesn't have cobalt. Um, and you, you sacrifice something, right? Maybe a little bit of power, maybe a little bit of range, maybe a little bit of thermal stability. Nothing's ready, uh, uh, to replace cobalt entirely, um, but there, there are batteries that work and work relatively well without cobalt. But that doesn't... Let's say, let's say you stop using cobalt entirely tomorrow. Um, what about all the harm that's been done-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- SKSiddharth Kara
... up un- up until today? Do we just forget about it?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, and what happens to those people-
- SKSiddharth Kara
What happens-
- JRJoe Rogan
... if they do stop mining cobalt?
- SKSiddharth Kara
What happens to those people? Uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Their... And there's an economy that even though it's a horrible c- economy, their, their... The way they get money for food is dependent right now. And you're talking about hundreds of thousands of people.
- SKSiddharth Kara
Hundreds of thousands of people. And the reason they're so dependent on those couple of dollars a day from cobalt is because the mines took over everything. I mean, millions of trees have been clear-cut, arable land has just been wiped out, so where there was an agricultural economy, um, a fishing economy, some other ways to earn a living, you know, it's, it's almost all gone because mining has taken over everything.
- JRJoe Rogan
And mining has likely destroyed the environment.
- 1:31:47 – 1:34:11
Media silence, advertising pressure, and building a movement for change
- JRJoe Rogan
It seems so bizarre that it takes a person like you to write a book and to go over there and risk your life, and then to come on a podcast and discuss it and to write a book and, and, and distribute that book, that this isn't something that's on every major news channel, every newspaper, on the front page every day. Like, "Look what we're doing." Like, "Look at the harm we're causing. Look at what we're worried..." There's so ma- there's so many things that we're worried about in this country that could be considered trivial in comparison.
- SKSiddharth Kara
Who buys the ads on a lot of those major news channels?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SKSiddharth Kara
Okay. And I say that not just glibly, because I, after I came back from one of my trips, you know, I've written a few op-eds along the way, just talking about what I've seen. And, um, uh, after my last trip, um, uh, I wasn't able to go in 2020 because of the pandemic, I, I got back in 2021, and I was able to see the impact of the pandemic, on the people down there, by the way, which is another important thing we should mention. Um, but I was writing up an op-ed, um, uh, uh, and the, the point of it was that, um, you know, we relied more than ever on our rechargeable devices during lockdowns and so on, in order to continue our jobs and education, right? I mean, a lot of people did online school, especially in the first part of the pandemic, during the lockdowns, worked from home, all of that, right? So demand for rechargeable gadgets increased, which meant demand for cobalt increased. And I was curious, "Well, what happened down there at the other end of the chain?" Uh, and when I finally got back down there, what I saw was, um, a lot of the big mining companies also, uh, shuttered for weeks and months, especially in the beginning, especially in the beginning when people didn't know what was going on. Um, but it's not like demand for cobalt stopped. It actually went up, because everyone was buying more stuff to do work from home and school from home. So there was massive pressure pushing the peasant population into the trenches and pits to keep the cobalt flowing, and they got sick and they got unwell, uh, and their income certainly didn't improve. Uh, kids were pulled out of school, the ones that were in school, um, to keep the cobalt flowing. And I wrote a little op-ed about it, um, uh, and I had the hardest time placing it in mainstream media.
Episode duration: 1:52:30
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Transcript of episode RTrXk4geQFg
