EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,104 words- 0:00 – 2:14
America’s “worst era” debate: assassinations, Vietnam backlash, and cultural whiplash
- JBJon Bernthal
(drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.
- NANarrator
The Joe Rogan Experience.
- NANarrator
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (heavier rock music) You know, I grew up in, in, in DC and, um, I, I think about the people, you know, who, who were my teachers, and, you know, my parents, my friends' parents, and, uh, y- you know, they're sort of at the forefront of, uh, y- y- y- you know, troops coming home and getting-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JBJon Bernthal
... fucking spit on and, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JBJon Bernthal
... and you, you, you got people, y- you know, you're coming out of, you know, Jim Crow and people, uh, y- y- you know, people going down south and getting lynched, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JBJon Bernthal
... in Meridian, Mississippi. And y- y- y- you know, I just... And then these assassinations. I just can't imagine what that must... Like a-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JBJon Bernthal
... string of assassinations.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JBJon Bernthal
And y- and just g- given the conversation, you know, if you're talking about the most fucked up time when you think everything is going to complete shit and it's just hari-kari. I'm like what would... I mean, imagine if right now, you know, in the, in, in the string of next week, like, Kanye was assassinated-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JBJon Bernthal
... Trump was assassinated. You know, like...
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, right.
- JBJon Bernthal
I mean, I guess we had the thing at Pelosi's house. I mean, I guess that's, like, kinda weird, but, like, it's also kinda like-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's just weird.
- JBJon Bernthal
It's just weird, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JBJon Bernthal
And, but like, imagine that. Like, imagine what, what we'd all be sa... I mean, it's like, uh, eh. You know, I think w- in the last couple years we really saw what it, how close, how fragile this whole thing is-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JBJon Bernthal
... and how close this thing c- can go to just breaking down, and you're kinda on your own. But I just, you know, to have like both-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, you got a good point.
- JBJon Bernthal
... both Kennedys?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, like-
- JBJon Bernthal
Like, what did that feel like?
- JRJoe Rogan
... John F. Kennedy, Robert F. Kennedy, Martin Luther King Jr., Malcolm X.
- JBJon Bernthal
Malcolm X.
- JRJoe Rogan
All these murders, all these assassinations, very close to each other.
- 2:14 – 4:34
Social media, violence awareness, and the 24-hour outrage machine
- JRJoe Rogan
Imagine if they had social media back then.
- JBJon Bernthal
You know what I'm saying?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Yeah, that's true. That's a very good point. And then, you know, all the other people that died during that time, right? Like, all the rock stars.
- JBJon Bernthal
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison. Everyone's dying.
- JBJon Bernthal
Yup.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. It's just like... And then the '70s come along and, you know, you have fucking Watergate, and Nixon's gone, and, like, all, all the chaos in the country.
- JBJon Bernthal
Totally. And everybody's just manically horrified. You know, you had the, the, the, the previous generation just absolutely fixated on this, this new war on drugs and what that means.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JBJon Bernthal
And then you have these great... I mean, think about, I mean, who, who, who would be the equivalent of Hem- Hendrix, Morrison, and Janis Joplin now if they all (laughs) you know, died?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, right, right, right.
- JBJon Bernthal
Just like... I mean, look, we, we, we've got, we've got people getting shot in the street, you know. We've got y- y- you know, uh, uh, you know, th- what was his name from, uh, Migos? He just died.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JBJon Bernthal
Offset just died.
- JRJoe Rogan
No, no, no, not Offset. The other, the other guy. Offset's still alive. He's the, he's the one who's married to Cardi B.
- JBJon Bernthal
Right, it's, uh, um...
- JRJoe Rogan
The other guy got accidentally shot by one of his friends.
- JBJon Bernthal
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
They were in the middle of a, some gunfight and his, one of his guys accidentally shot him.
- JBJon Bernthal
(inhales deeply)
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, but there was, there's just... We have, we're so aware of the violence now, and gun violence in South Central, and gun violence in South Side Chicago, and gun violence in Baltimore, and s- I think, I think we're probably more acutely aware of the, like, just 'cause of the news cycle, just 'cause of social media.
- JBJon Bernthal
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
But I think you're right in terms of the turmoil. And also, you go from, like, the tone of the '50s to the '60s, you have, like, a completely different style of culture is emerging. The psychedelic style of culture and the music is different. You got Woodstock and it seems like there's this gi-... You know, Hunter S. Thompson wrote about it, like, what happened after all that happened was, like, you could just see this wave of change and then it pulled back.
- JBJon Bernthal
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JBJon Bernthal
Got, got, got a little bit too much for everybody, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I guess. I mean, is it? (sighs) But it's all, like, these monumental shifts and then everything sort of kinda tries to balance itself out, and then you have these new dilemmas and new problems.
- 4:34 – 8:49
Policing as a pendulum: brutality, backlash, and who gets heard
- JBJon Bernthal
I would imagine it is. Uh, uh, uh, you know, I have a, a friend named, uh, Tony Maggio, who's a sort of legendary, uh, legendary drug cop in, in, in Baltimore from the East Side. And, and, uh, he's from the community, he's got, uh, the, the complete and sorta utter respect of, of everyone in that department, not just on the East Side but citywide in Baltimore. And, and, and also he's got the respect of people on the street. And he sorta talks about now, and I, uh, you know, just talking about these soldiers coming home in the Vietnam era and what that was like. I, I, I really equate that to kinda everything that law enforcement's going through-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- JBJon Bernthal
... right now, you know. You, we have these i-... For the first time, you know, with Vietnam, you had these images. Now look, I wasn't alive, but from what I hear, you know, you had these images coming into people's living rooms of these y- y- y- you know, horrible situations. People talking about the, the My Lai massacre, people talking about these things, um, y- you know, in Vietnam. And, and, and to the same extent now, you know, we were just sort of... There's so many examples of y- y- you know, crazy and rampant sort of police brutality. You have these, these instances that were then magnified to the point where people who had no experience, you know, you know, in this world would think that this is what all police are doing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JBJon Bernthal
And all of a sudden you have this unbelievably just, um, strident anti-police movement in this country.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JBJon Bernthal
And, um, you know, and the result of it, uh, in, in a lot of places is a total increase in crime. And (clears throat) , you know, I, I, y- y- you know, talking to Tony about it, y- you know, he just, he really believes that it's just a pendulum. You know, it's just a pendulum. You know, you, you go one way, then you go the other. And, uh, and, and, and he thinks it's gonna really swing back.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I hope he's right.It seems like that's always the case, as long as there's not some sort of a catastrophic thing that happens, like a world war or something that literally, like, flattens society and civilization. I mean, gen- generally people try to move things in a better direction. It's just setbacks and all these things that happen along the way. I think culturally we're all trying to move towards a better direction. I mean, that's why there is so much outrage. And, you know, when we have this anti-police sentiment, it is because of all these horrible, egregious examples of police brutality that we see.
- JBJon Bernthal
No question.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, the right way to do it is not defund the police. The right way to do it is not, like, uh, this, this attitude towards all law enforcement, which is crazy, because some of those same people, they're going to find themselves in a situation where they need law enforcement.
- JBJon Bernthal
Absolutely.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then what do they do? They look like hypocrites. And, you know, the, it's- it's a lack of understanding of the- the- the scope of the overall problem.
- JBJon Bernthal
And I think a lot of the times the conversation's just really being led by the wrong people.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JBJon Bernthal
You know, we're looking to pundits and- and celebrities and so-called experts in these situations. We're not talking to the people that are actually on the ground, uh, uh, doing the job, people from the communities. Uh, and- and- and I think there's a lot to be learned from those folks.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Oh, no doubt. It's just ... It seems like there's also this problem of there's so much information to sort through. You know, when you're dealing with this 24-hour news cycle and social media, you're dealing with ... Most of the things that people concentrate on are negative. And so you're dealing with negative consequences and negative actions from billions of people. And we're all trying to filter it out and apply it to our everyday lives while everyone's freaking out about climate change-
- JBJon Bernthal
Yeah. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... while everyone's freaking out about the war in Ukraine, while everyone's freaking about the drug problem and the border problem, the cartels and fentanyl and shit.
- JBJon Bernthal
Yep, yep, yep. Yeah. And everything's designed to just sort of be delivered in the most un-nuanced, the most just sort of bright lights, "Hey, pay attention to me."
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JBJon Bernthal
And, uh, you know, that's- that- that- that's scary. The- The truth gets really lost and these- these issues are (clears throat) , you know, they're- they're enormously complicated and they're not easy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JBJon Bernthal
And- and trying to say that they are or- or trying to just sort of deliver an agenda or say, "I'm on this team or this team. I'm on this side or the other side," it's, uh, I mean, for me, uh, I find that enormously un-American and I find it, um, I- I think it's a huge mistake and it's- it's not the way I want to live my life. It's not the way I want my kids to live theirs.
- 8:49 – 11:37
Tribalism and porous dividing lines: why nuance is disappearing
- JRJoe Rogan
Agreed. Yeah, I feel exactly the same way. We have a horrible tendency towards tribalism in th- in this country. There's definitely this te- this trend, and I think that's also exacerbated by social media and the algorithms where people are just, they're holing up on teams and attacking people on the other side. And all of it is kind of fucked.
- JBJon Bernthal
Yeah. And isolating even more and more.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JBJon Bernthal
And I think that, um ... I really think that the- the lines in which we're dividing ourselves, um, you know, so many people have talked about the- the polarization. It's like one of these things. It's like everybody talks about it, but we still kind of, you know, still- still- still march to the beat of that drummer. And I think that the- the lines that divide us, they're so porous, they're so insignificant. Um, they really, there's- there's no value based on those lines ever, in my opinion. Um, I- I- I think, you know, we miss out on so much by holding people back or saying, "You are on this side or you're on that side." And, um, I look at it, you know, in terms of, um, the way we ... our prejudices and- and- and- and, um, these things that we ascribe to. You know, I look at it, you know, in that movement that we were talking about, you know, to- to sort of jump to this conclusion, if you've never been in a situation where you've really needed the police to say that all cops are bastards or abolish the police or to say that, uh, you know, folks in- in these communities, uh, you know, that- that- that where the violence is going down, uh, you know, in- in- in sort of the most violent cities in America. To- to think that those folks that are from those communities don't want more policing there is- is just a huge mistake. And I- I- I really feel like, um, you know, when I talk to my friends in Shreveport, Louisiana or in Baltimore, um, that- that is not the case. And, um, yeah, I look at it a lot of times. Um, you know, if you had a, uh, if you had a- if you had a- a football team and- and- and, you know, you- you felt that, "You know what, I just, you know, I just don't want any- I just don't want any homosexuals on my football team." You know, if you're just like, if that's how you felt, there could be somebody on that ... (laughs) You could have somebody on your team who's six foot five, you know, runs a 4.4 40 and just can demolish people. But because of your own stupid prejudice, because of your own-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JBJon Bernthal
... just ridiculousness that you ascribe to, you're missing out and- and your team's gonna fail.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JBJon Bernthal
And- and- and it's just such a, it's- it's impossible to thrive. It's impossible. And- and I just- I just find it so unbelievably un-American.
- 11:37 – 20:49
Why Bernthal started his podcast: bridging activists, cops, and people “in it”
- JRJoe Rogan
It's definitely un-American. You have such an interesting, nuanced perspective, which, you know, I don't want to say is unusual for actors because I think actors are just human beings and they vary widely. But to be a guy like yourself who decides, "Hey, I want to put these opinions out there and I want to talk about things in this sort of nuanced and, you know, objective way." Like, what made you decide to do that? Because that's very unusual for actors and it's also unusual for actors who do it well. Like you- you don't come across as someone who's trying to ...... sort of soften your words or say things in a way that's virtuous so that people like you more, or that you... You seem very genuine in what you do, and to do that as, like, in a podcast form-
- JBJon Bernthal
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... the way you're doing it, it's almost like, it- it- it's like... Did you get any people saying like, "Hey, maybe you shouldn't do this."
- JBJon Bernthal
100%.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah?
- JBJon Bernthal
(laughs) Yeah. Everybody-
- JRJoe Rogan
This is, could be a liability, John.
- JBJon Bernthal
What are you doing, dude? (laughs) You're throwing it all away.
- JRJoe Rogan
Why do you have all these opinions?
- JBJon Bernthal
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Shut the fuck up and be The Punisher.
- JBJon Bernthal
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JBJon Bernthal
I know, I know. And- and honestly, man, I'm... You know, I have huge trepidation. I have huge hesitation. And I- I- I don't necessarily think it's for the reasons that you just pointed out. I- I- I think, you know, for me, um, you know, not to be grandiose about it, but I, look, I- I- I love acting. I- I love it, and I think in a lot of ways, it- it- it- it genuinely saved my life, and I think that... I imagine, I'm- I'm a huge fan of yours, and, um, I listen to your show religiously. And- and- and I- I imagine that's similar, potentially, to how you feel about comedy, I feel about acting. I feel like it's a lifelong pursuit.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JBJon Bernthal
I feel like it's something that, um, failure and, uh, humiliation is- is- is always on my shoulder. He's always there talking to me and whispering to me, and it's always a fight that I like fighting. Um, you can... Uh, you're never gonna have it licked. You always gotta get better. There's always further you can take it. There, you- you, there's always a grind to it. You can always... That- that's how I look at it, I love it, and I'm beholding to it. So anything that kind of gets in the way of that or, um, is, uh... I've been kind of conditioned to think is- is- is the enemy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JBJon Bernthal
And- and to be honest with you, one thing that I'm quite certain, uh, i- i- i- is the enemy of that is- is putting more of myself out there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JBJon Bernthal
I- I'm really not interested in- in- in being, you know, more well-known or, uh, uh, uh... So- so to be honest with you, um, there's a lot of trepidation about it in that way. I think the more you hear from me, the more I share my views, uh, just the more time in the box you get of Jon being Jon, the less you're gonna believe me as a tennis coach or as a-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JBJon Bernthal
... mathematician or The Punisher or whatever-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JBJon Bernthal
... whatever it is. And- and- and so that is... But I will say, um, y- you know, the intentionality behind the show is something I- I- I genuinely believe in. Um, I think this all kind of came forward, uh, you know, in COVID, in- in- in sort of the wake of not only George Floyd, but in just all these examples of- of- of this police brutality and this rampant police brutality, and- and- and the fervor that kind of came after it. You know, I was really in this situation where, um, like so many, I was, I was so, uh, disgusted and heartbroken and- and- and angry, uh, watching that video and- and- and- and Eric Garner and... I mean, all- all of them.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JBJon Bernthal
But- but George Floyd and- and I really, really wanted to get out there and- and- and be part of that, um... Be part of that protest and be part of that uprising. Um, but at the same time, I turned on the TV, and I saw people throwing bottles at police officers. I thought I saw people throwing bricks at police officers. And to me, every single one of those police officers is a brother, a sister, a son, a daughter, someone's, someone's best friend. Um, and, uh, I was disgusted by that. And- and I really... You know, I'm- I'm, I'm- I'm very grateful for kind of how I grew up and where I grew up. I grew up in- in- in Washington. Um, I, uh, I- I have, um, you know, I- I have Black folks in my family. I grew up, uh, extraordinarily, uh, y- you know, with- with familial and- and- and best friends and- and ties, uh, very much in- into the Black community. And I'm very much, I think, aware of, um, the struggles that- that Black folk have been in through this city, and- and especially their struggles with police. I myself have- have been beaten by the police, uh, um, but I've also had my- my- my life saved by the police. And I- I also believe that, um, so many of the folks that were sort of leading the charge in this anti-police movement and also so many folks that were leading the charge in this anti-Black Lives Matter movement, um, they are folks who really had no experience, uh, y- y- you know, really in it. It was just people kind of like arguing from the polls, flag waving from the polls.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JBJon Bernthal
Uh, and I- I was seeing something, um, kind of in America generally where I- where strength and- and patriotism was being confused with- with- with- with being rigid or being steadfast in your views and completely unbending-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JBJon Bernthal
... and an unwillingness to sit down with somebody that thinks differently than you and- and- and to be confident in yourself enough to- to- to- to say, "Hey, you're an American. I'm an American, and like I might learn something from you. I- I- I don't have all of the answers." And I- I think at that time, the genesis of- of, you know... I mean, you know, why the pod- podcast started is I- I looked at, okay, well, you know, on one side, you've got, you know, in this anti-police mo- movement, who is the most... You know, who's the archetype that- that everyone is- is sort of most afraid of in- in- in that? And to me, it's the plainclothes unit, a- aggressive, take the fight to the criminal police officer, right? And then on the other side, who's the archetype? Who are we all afraid of? Okay, well, maybe it's the African American gang member. And, you know, to me, I looked at my life and- and one of the things I'm most grateful for is I have really, really, really dear genuine close friends who fit both of those bills.
- 20:49 – 28:20
The first big episode: a Newton Division cop and a Pueblo Bishop Blood activist in one room
- JBJon Bernthal
So the f- the first one that we did was exactly what I'm talking about. We, we, we did it with, um, my friend Jerry Ballesteros who's, uh, you know, he's a crash unit cop, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
So how does this conversation start, and, like, how do you decide to start doing this? Like, what, how do you l- you know, how do you say, "You know what? I am gonna sit down with people." Like, were, were you just like, "I don't feel like their side's being represented." "I don't f- I, I feel like I have something to add to this." Or, "I feel like I have a unique position-"
- JBJon Bernthal
Not me.
- JRJoe Rogan
... "where I can kind of bring people together."
- JBJon Bernthal
Yeah, not me. Uh, th- them.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JBJon Bernthal
Yeah. I, I, I guess there's that. And, and, um, you know, I, I, I had, uh, I have friends who, um, y- you know, especially if you, if you, if you look at South Central specifically, um, you know, Newton Division in, in, in South Central, um, it's, uh, historically one of the most violent, uh, uh, you know, they call it Shoot Newton, one of the, one of the most violent, uh, uh, precincts in, in, in the entire city. Um, I was enormously close with, uh, some of the guys in that precinct, and Jerry Ballesteros is sort of this, this legendary cop there. Um, he's lost people, uh, on the street, and, and, um, he's, uh, he- he's, he's gone all the way. And, and, um, he's a guy that's respected. Uh, I, I believe in his reasons for putting people's heads down with-
- JRJoe Rogan
Was he the first guy you sat down with?
- JBJon Bernthal
So he's the first guy I sat down with, but I sat down with him and I sat down with, um, a guy named Donte Johnson. Uh, people call him Bojangles on the street. Um, he grew up in the Pueblo Bishop Housing Projects. The, the Pueblo Bishop Housing Projects and Newton Division are, y- you know, right next to each other. They've been sort of set against each other forever. Um, you know, uh, people call him Bojangles, like I said. Um, he's a community activist. He's, uh, somebody who's given so much back to the community of the Pueblos. But, um, he was also, he, he, he, he was, um, you know, part of the Pueblo, and still is part of the Pueblo Bishop Bloods. And, um, you know, these guys knew each other. They knew of each other. They'd come into contact with each other in the street. And, you know, at first, you know, getting them together was, it was difficult. It was hard. And, and, and, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's a big first step.
- JBJon Bernthal
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, you're gonna get into podcasting. This is like, it's a very big undertaking.
- JBJon Bernthal
A- a- yeah, but again, man, uh, it's, uh, I don't know. Uh, um...
- JRJoe Rogan
You just felt compelled?
- JBJon Bernthal
I did. I did. A- a- and, look, I mean, I think at the time, you know, my cousin, uh, was the, in a band called Fountains of Wayne, and right in the beginning of, of, of COVID when it was first sort of popping off, um, he died, um, way, way too early, left two daughters behind. Um, only person in my family, uh, really that, that, that showed me that it was possible to kind of be an artist. Uh, and, uh, it was real- he, he died real early. He was sort of like, "Hey, I'm sick and, and, and I'm, I'm going into the hospital now. I got this thing," and, "Hey, I'm on an- a ventilator," and, and never, never came out. And, and, uh, you know, his parents couldn't go visit him, his, his kids couldn't go visit him even though they were a mile apart because they closed off the hospitals. And, um, yeah, so w- I, you know, I live up in Ojai, California in a place that's, y- you know, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I know Ojai.
- JBJon Bernthal
... COVID... Yeah, so C- COVID almost, like, didn't really exist there at the time. But then again, when, when the George Floyd uprising, you know, popped off, I really wanted to get out. I really wanted to be a, a, a, a part of that. Um, but then again when I saw the anti-police movement, anytime I'd go and protest I'd also stop by Newton Division just to pay my respects. And I just was so frustrated that I couldn't be both. I couldn't, I, I, uh, I'm so pro Black Lives Matter, but also super pro-law enforcement, and understand that these things are not mutually exclusive. So that's kind of where the idea came from, but...You know, with these guys specifically, it was, it was really hard to, to, to get them together. There had been, um, uh, an officer-involved shooting at the Pueblos right at that time, and, um, there was an ongoing case. And, uh, you know, what was interesting, the way that we came around is, uh, Bo, he's, um, he started a, an acting school, uh, I- in the Pueblos, uh, I- in South Central with, with, with Shia LaBeouf years ago, uh, called Slauson Rec. And, um, Bo himself, um, you know, is an acting student and an actor himself. And, um, there's a show that I wrote, uh, about Shreveport, Louisiana and, um, I wanted to do a reading of it. And so I got Bo and a bunch of guys, um, from the, the Pueblos, uh, some of whom were active gang members, to, to do this reading of the show. And I brought in a bunch of industry people and a bunch of agents and managers to come give these guys an opportunity. But the place that we had the reading was at a place that was sort of run by my friend who's in the LAPD. So you had these cops coming in at that time, setting up chairs and hanging lights. And you had these ex and current gang members performing. And to put them all on mission together and put them all sort of into... By the end, everyone's hugging each other. And now, you know, we're setting up a show with Gerry and Bo where they both love fishing, so they're going fishing-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JBJon Bernthal
... and they're taking people fishing with them. But this is the whole thesis, and, and, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JBJon Bernthal
... what I expected to happen really did. I, I know these two men. I believe in these two men with all my heart. I respect these two men, uh, uh, limitlessly. And I knew that they would laugh at the same shit. I knew that they would be finishing each other's sentences. Their experience is what binds them. And, and again, they can point out flaws in each other, and, and at times, they do in, in, in the episode. They can point out flaws with the system. They can talk about things that are grossly unfair. Um, you know, this was one of the things that sort of came out that was so interesting, is, you know, Gerry was talking about, you know, being, you know, a decades-long veteran of the LAPD, how, you know, places would give him free coffee. He would go eat for free. But now walking in, you, you know, in uniform, people wouldn't let him in, you know, their, their establishments. And, and, you know, on the other side, you kn- you know, you got Bo saying, "Yeah, I've lived that, I've lived with that my whole life, man."
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JBJon Bernthal
You know what I mean? And, and there's real, there's real points of connection that way. And, uh, and then I just think from there, it just, um, you, you know, I believed in that, uh, in that thesis, and we just kinda kept it going. And I got a group of people around me that I think really believe in it as well. And, uh, yeah, man, it's, it's, um, so this is what we're doing.
- JRJoe Rogan
One of the things that separates people so much is the lack of communication. And the fact that you were able to get those two guys to sit down and communicate, that opens up doors to so many other people. And it opens up doors of possibility in people's minds, where they can watch that conversation and go, "You know what? At the end of the day, we're all just people."
- JBJon Bernthal
That's right.
- JRJoe Rogan
"And we all believe in what we believe in." And oftentimes, we look at the other, people on the other side as, as being the opposite or being the enemy, when in fact they're just other human beings.
- JBJon Bernthal
That's it.
- JRJoe Rogan
We have way more in common than we do, like, conflict.
- JBJon Bernthal
And, and, and I think with the iso- isolate... With how isolated everyone is, and everyone wants to say, "I, I, I'm on this side or on this side."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 28:20 – 30:13
Division-by-design: propaganda, foreign meddling, and Jon’s Moscow backstory begins
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, what disturbs me is that, that absolute lack of nuance that some people have, where, you know, it's, "This side is bad. That side is bad." And all that has exacerbated not just by social media, but also by foreign entities that are embedded in social media that continually stir up this sort of strife and stir up this conflict, and it's done intentionally to try to divide us.
- JBJon Bernthal
It, it-
- JRJoe Rogan
That sounds like very tinfoil hat, but it's all been proven that this is going on.
- JBJon Bernthal
Yeah, I mean, I don't know, man. It's so clearly... It's so clearly a weakness. It's so clearly a weakness in, in, in the fabric and the structure of our society.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JBJon Bernthal
So of course there... You, you know, look, man. I, I lived in, in Moscow for, for, for two years.
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you?
- JBJon Bernthal
And, yeah. That's what-
- JRJoe Rogan
What were you doing over there?
- JBJon Bernthal
You know, I, I, um, I, I, I was really kind of a, a fuckup as a kid, (laughs) Joe. And, and, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
All my favorite people were. (laughs)
- JBJon Bernthal
Oh boy, yeah. I, I took it... I don't know. I took it to a different level maybe. But I, I, I, um, I was really lost as a kid, got into a, a ton of trouble. Uh, went to school, um, played, played a little bit of sports in school, but I was getting in a lot of trouble. Um, um, trouble with the law. Trouble, um, you know, ended up not, not being able to finish school. And, um, I got really into acting in, in college, almost as a whim. No, no aim. It was just almost on accident. And, um, I, I met a wonderful woman there name, named Alma Becker, and, and she, uh, she ended up marrying my wife and I. Uh, she was, um... And, and she was sort of fascinated with, uh, Eastern European and Russian theater. And, um, when I got done sort of, like, being in trouble and I, I, when school, when I couldn't finish school, I, I, I had decided this is really what I wanted to do, and I really wanted to be an actor, but I had no kind of frame of reference. I didn't think it was any different than being a plumber or being a lawyer or being a cop. Like, what are the steps I have to do? This is what I want to do for a living.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- 30:13 – 34:39
Moscow Art Theater and the origins of modern acting: Stanislavski, Chekhov, and realism
- JBJon Bernthal
She sort of explained, "Well, it doesn't really quite work that way." But, you know, she said that, look, if, if, if, if she were I, you know, she, she thought that the best theater school in the world was, was the Moscow Art Theater in, in Russia. And she said, "You know, I can get you an audition for that school."
- JRJoe Rogan
The best theater in the world is in Russia?
- JBJon Bernthal
According to her. And, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- JBJon Bernthal
... and, and I, I, I certainly believe that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- JBJon Bernthal
I mean, if you, if you look at it, I mean, kinda historically, you, you know, all of acting that, that, that we...... y- you know, that we celebrate is, is, you know, was, was really, like, the kernel of that all started at that theater, at the Moscow Art Theater.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- JBJon Bernthal
Stanislavski and Chekhov, yeah. Yeah, the, the first play they did was The Seagull, and, uh, y- they, um, they, they, they, they put that play together in a summer home outside Moscow, and then they came into the city and they put it on. And up until that point, um...
- JRJoe Rogan
What year was this?
- JBJon Bernthal
This ni- th- this was in the 1920s. So basically all theater, all acting up until that point was very presentational. It was very go to the front of the stage and kind of proclaim to the audience, you know, face outward. And, uh, what they, what Stanislavski came up with, what you, w- what you hear and, and his method, whi- which is not y- you know, like, uh, sitting in your own shit or having people call you your character name. That, that, that is not, you know, method acting. This method that, that, that he came up with was really about, uh, realism on stage. So if you're drinking tea in a scene, really drink tea. Turn your back to the audience. Talk as if you're actually in the situation. And in 1933, they went on a world tour with this play, The Seagull. Uh, they went through Europe and then they went to America. They went to, uh, San Francisco, to Chicago, and to New York. And that changed acting. All of the sort of great American theater training, you know, from the group theater with Strasberg and Uta Hagen, it all came out of their exposure to this one play. Nobody had ever seen acting like that, and it all started at this school.
- JRJoe Rogan
How did they figure that out? Like, what-
- JBJon Bernthal
How did who figure that out?
- JRJoe Rogan
Ha- th- the Russians. What, th- what was the genesis of that?
- JBJon Bernthal
Uh, you know, I, I, I, I think it was y- you know, it was this unbelievable con- uh, conglomeration of a rejection of, of, of how theater was before that. But also, y- you know, like so many things, it, it, it takes this sort of perfect storm of people coming together. You had Chekhov, um, who, you, you know, look, in the, in the Eastern European world, and, uh, you know, Chekhov to, to, to, to Russia is very much what Shakespeare is to us. You have this guy who is writing in this unbelievably realistic way, who, you know, examined human behavior. He was a doctor, and he, he, he really looked at it, um, he really looked at life, uh, sort of in this sort of like omnipotent or omnipresent way, like he was looking down on it. For example, um, y- you would have somebody who was, uh, you, you have a love story. Th- The Seagull, there's always some confusion because it's called a comedy, but it's really ultimately the, the, the lead character takes his own life, kills himself at the end, and it's very tragic. But from a doctor, there was something really funny about all these people who are in love with the wrong person. "I'm spending my life wanting to love this person. I want this so bad." Yeah, but right next to you is a person who really loves you and you're ignoring that. And just sort of the, the feebleness and the fragility of, of, of human behavior and really examining it. Um, these small characters, giving them real emotional life on stage, you know, that's, that's... S- s- so you, you had this in the writing, and then you had this brilliant actor, director, Stanislavski, who just thought, you know, "What if we actually play this for real?" And it was a completely revolutionary thing. It changed, changed everything. It ch- it's, it's the style of, of, of film acting and theater acting that, that has literally taken over everything today.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's fascinating. I would have never known that. And so you go over there. And what is it like to go over to Russia? Did you understand and speak Russian? Did you have to learn that? Did they speak English?
- JBJon Bernthal
Um, y- s- so I was over there in the late 90s. Uh, it was a totally wild time to be there. And I think looking back at, you know, maybe why Alma wanted me to be there, uh, was, you know, probably because I was such a wild kid and I was so lost and doing so much kind of fucked up stuff that I think she-
- JRJoe Rogan
So you just pack up your shit.
- JBJon Bernthal
Yeah, man. And back then, you know, no, no email, no, you know, no phone.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JBJon Bernthal
You know, you, you go over there and it's like, you know, you don't talk to anybody. You, you don't talk to anybody from your life here. And I think very much, I think she knew I needed to get out of here.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- 34:39 – 47:19
Actor boot camp in Russia: brutal training, communist history, and day-three violence
- JBJon Bernthal
And, uh, so I think that was part of it for her. But, you know, Russia, uh, y- you know, I, I can't... I mean the, the way I would describe it is, um, unbelievable beauty with, with unbelievable brutality. Um, for me, there's no way I, I would be doing what I do today if it wasn't for my time spent there. Um, you had this unbelievable appreciation, uh, for the arts on, uh, every corner. There's a statue of a playwright or a poet or an actor. You know, being an actor was an enormously masculine thing to do. Um, it was, um... The, the, the training itself was, was highly rigorous, you know, from playing college sports and, you know, doing fight training. It was by far without a doubt the most, uh, disciplined and, and, and physically strenuous, uh, work that I've ever done in my life.
- JRJoe Rogan
How so?
- JBJon Bernthal
So basically the way that the school works is, you know, you have thousands of kids that audition. And then, um, every s- they take 100, and then every semester they'll cut that class in half. So you're, you're kind of fighting for your life the whole time you're there. And they'll graduate 10 kids. And these kids are coming-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- JBJon Bernthal
... from all over the country. And it's really kind of like if you get into that school, it's kind of like this golden ticket. It's kind of like y- y- you know, there's, there's... At the time, there's 10 times more theaters in Moscow than there were in New York. Theater is religion there. And I, I'd... I'll, I'll definitely explain to you sort of why that is, especially coming out of communism-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JBJon Bernthal
... and how important theater was and the role it played. But if you graduate from one of those schools, it's, it's not like in America where a lot of theater training is very coddling and it's very like, "Okay, you can't really play sports. You're not the best student, but come to the theater where you can be a tree and everybody's kumbaya and we get along." If you can get through one of those schools, you're funneled into one of the major theater companies. It's such a huge achievement that you're kind of guaranteed employment after that. And the people that get the honor of teaching in Russia...It's the highest honor you can achieve. So my teacher, uh, Oleg Tabakov, he'd be the equivalent of, like, Robert De Niro here.
- NANarrator
Mm-hmm.
- JBJon Bernthal
It's, um... So, you know, if a, if an acting teacher walks into a room, it doesn't matter even if you're in public, if you're a student of that school, you have to stand up, and you can't sit down until they sit down. And there's just this, this unbelievable respect that's built in. You need to learn acrobatics. You have to train ballet. You have to do-
- NANarrator
Acrobatics?
- JBJon Bernthal
Acrobatics, yeah.
- NANarrator
So you were training in acrobatics and ballet while you were learning acting?
- JBJon Bernthal
Yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs)
- NANarrator
Really?
- JBJon Bernthal
And, uh, and, and-
- NANarrator
How... Like, how do they structure that?
- JBJon Bernthal
How do they structure what?
- NANarrator
How do they structure that kind of training? Like...
- JBJon Bernthal
So it's, it's, it's, um... Y- y- you know, at first, in the first year... I mean, look, in the, in the, in the first year you're there, there's no, there's no text. I mean, all of the training is in your voice and in your body, um, and in rhythm. You learn rhythm, which is something that's, like, not taught here. Um, so-
- NANarrator
Rhythm of communication, rhythm of-
- JBJon Bernthal
Everything, everything.
- NANarrator
... dancing?
- JBJon Bernthal
So, rh- rhythm of objects, lear- like, literally just learning, uh, it, it, it, it's just, it's, it's studying rhythm. So you and I would be able... We, we would be tasked with putting on a show completing rhythms, like th- uh, off-rhythms and, and, um... How do I explain it? Like I, I, I give you, I'll give you an example. You know, like, o- one of the training exercises would be, uh, training your attention, your concentration, right? So you would read, uh, a newspaper article, and you would just... They would tell you to concentrate on one paragraph, and you would read that to yourself. And while that's happening, everyone in the class would be asking questions. Say, "Jamie, what, what color socks are you wearing today?" He would answer. Then Jamie would say, "Joe, what did you have for breakfast?" You would answer. Somebody asks... And we would go around, and everybody would... While you're reading the article. Meanwhile, the teacher would be clapping, snapping, or coughing.
- NANarrator
Mm-hmm.
- JBJon Bernthal
When it was over, he would point to anyone in the class. You have to know how many times he snapped, how many times he coughed, how many times he clapped. Then he would go around, and he would say, "What did Jamie eat for breakfast today?" You would have to know all that. And then he'd have you stand up, and you would have to recite the paragraph that you just read.
- NANarrator
Wow.
- JBJon Bernthal
And you would have to be able to answer any of those questions. So it's these t- these, these ex- And that's kind of what the method was. And then when you get into the acrobatics, it's really, really getting just much, much more limber. You know, I was... L- I played football and baseball. I played in college. I was very, very sort of, um... You know, I'd lifted weights. I was a very just tight person, so it was just, like, partner stretching, stretching the shit out of yourself and then learning how to do... You, you know, have people kind of climb up your body, learning how to... You, you were either a suppor- I, I guess the equivalent would be, uh, like gymnastics or some sort of, like, you know, high-level tumbling. But, uh, you had to do all that, and ballet as well. Um, and, uh, yeah, I mean, n- not until the second year are you actually, you know, speaking text, you know. All of it is just movement-based, observation-based. Um, yeah.
- NANarrator
Wow, so it's almost like a boot camp. Like, they're building you up.
- JBJon Bernthal
I, I think so. And then every... Y- y- you know, every couple months, they, they let you know that... Whether you're allowed to come back or not. And, and so you have people's, you know, dreams kind of shattered. And I, I, I think more than anything else, man, it's, it's the, um, y- y- the vitality of it. Y- y- you, you know, look, during, during Communist times, public gathering was outlawed. So, you know, you couldn't go to church. You couldn't, you couldn't get a group of people together and, and, and, and, and, and speak, you know. Audiences were illegal unless they were politically based and controlled by the Kremlin. So there were a couple state-based theaters, state-run theaters in Moscow, one of them being the Moscow Art Theater, um, but they had to do pro-state, uh, shows. And the thing is, is a lot of these people, you know... Uh, Meyerhold, for example, he's one of the most famous Russian directors, he would be... He was, he, he was lauded by the state as th- uh, as this, you know, unbelievable, uh, hero of the Russian theater. And, and, and, you know, Stalin... They, they, they would go, and they would see his plays. But then somebody looked at it, and all of a sudden, they said, "You know what? I think there's actually an anti-state message here." They executed him in his, in his, uh, apartment.
- NANarrator
Hmm.
- 47:19 – 1:00:53
Seeing Russia now: Ukraine war, propaganda, strong-leader culture, and athletic exceptionalism
- JRJoe Rogan
How bizarre is it for you now to see this conflict that we're going through with Russia and Ukraine and United States involvement, and it ... having spent time there?
- JBJon Bernthal
Um, bizarre is it? You know, I ... I ... uh, y- you know, I ... I don't ... I, I feel horrible. Uh, I'm, I'm, I'm devastated for, uh, you know, my friends there. I'm devastated for, for, um ... it's, it's such a different, it's such a different Moscow. It's such a different Russia than, than, than what I knew, you know. There was, there was f- a free press there when I, when I was there. It was, it was like ... you know, it felt ... it was the Wild West, man. It was, it was ... everybody was exploding, you know, and this, this, this new freedom. And, um, it, it, it was, uh, such an optimistic ... uh, you could feel the fragility, um, but there was also, man ... you know, if, if, if, if, if somebody ... if, if you bump somebody's foot by accident standing on a sidewalk, they, they have to step on your foot. That's like a Russian tradition. So, if, like, you bump into somebody, they, they, they have to bump into you back. Um, if, if there's, uh, a line, you know, a lot of people just didn't believe in lines. So, like, somebody will just cut right in front of you.You know, I remember when there was the, um, the situation at the Russian theater. There was a hostage s- situation, um, where they just kind of went in, and those people were being held hostage. So, they put it in gas, and they just kind of killed everybody. Um, I think there's something about... You know, I had a friend who was in the FSB, a young- a young guy, and- and if there was an issue with the police, if we were being loud or somebody was trying to shake us down, you know, I had this 21-year-old friend who was in the FSB. And this 21-year-old kid, you know, could- could yield such unbelievable power just by fl- like, put- put the fear of God in- in soldiers with guns like that. And- and that's something I- I don't, I don't know that we have an equivalent of that. I saw that there was, um... I remember them talking about Putin and- and- and with George Bush at the time. I remem- remember there was that thing like, "You know, I looked into his soul, and he's like a- a great man, and we really connected." There- th- there was, there- th- there was this thing that there was an understanding among Moscovites that he would just toy with this guy, and things like deception and things like manipulation were things that were celebrated in- in a lea- in a leader. They- they- they weren't... You know, we do the same shit, but we- we're not allowed to talk about it. We're not allowed to celebrate it. It's un-American. But- but that- that style of being- being, um, ruling with an iron fist, uh, you know, you- you, it was- it was still, that was still very celebrated and- and- and many Russians, I- I think, really ascribed to that. So- so, uh, I- I guess I'm heartbroken, you know? I'm heartbroken. Uh, and- and, uh, I'm heartbroken for all the people that, you know, all the- all- all the young men that- that- that have fled and left and the families that are being torn apart. I'm heartbroken, uh, for what's going on in Ukraine, um, but- but I guess I'm not, I'm not that surprised, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm. The- the strong leader, that- that is such a- a big part of Russia.
- JBJon Bernthal
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And to have this, uh, powerful leader who leads with an iron fist, that seems to be something that they embrace. It's a part of the culture.
- JBJon Bernthal
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's a part of the history of that part of the world.
- JBJon Bernthal
Ab- absolutely. And making hard decisions and- and- and understanding that things, you know, aren't clean. I mean, look at... Y- y- y-, you know, I think many Russians would- would look at, you know, you know, World War II and the way that they handled that war and the way that they approached that war militarily, you- you know, was, uh, (laughs) you know... I- I don't, I don't know how... It- it's interesting. I don't know if that would fly here, but- but- but-
- JRJoe Rogan
But what, look at what they're doing to Ukraine when they have these mobile crematoriums, and they're just taking the Russian soldiers that die and just...
- JBJon Bernthal
Yeah. But, I mean-
- JRJoe Rogan
And they don't even have a count of the bodies. There- there's not even an accurate count of casualties.
- JBJon Bernthal
And- and- and- and look, I- I... (laughs) You know, I think, you- you know, one gun for every five guys in World War II.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JBJon Bernthal
You know, pick up, you know, when that guy dies, pick up the gun. Um, you know, I- I... But look, you know, you- you- you look at the- the- the way Patton approached, uh, you know, the armor, the- the- the- the armor units in- in- in World War II, you know? Our- our tanks, you- you know, couldn't- couldn't compete with the Germans' tanks. They just couldn't compete. They looked at those tanks. They said, "There's just no way that a, that a Sherman can compete with a Tiger. It's just not gonna happen. Well, I know what we'll do. We'll build five times as many." So yes, that's an un- unbelievable, uh, achievement of a- American industry, an unbelievable achievement of- of- of the war effort back home, an unbelievable achievement of the engineers that were on the front line fixing those tanks. But the, you know, what's- what's the other side of that? It takes five Sherman tanks to take down one Tiger tank, so we're just gonna produce five times as many. But think about all those tank units. What do- what does that mean for the men in- in- inside those tanks? You know, what- what does that mean, you know? That means we have to put in five times as many people, and that when they go, we got to get a new unit out there, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
(sighs)
- JBJon Bernthal
And that's... It's- it's- it's very similar, you know? It's just-
- JRJoe Rogan
A totally different mentality than what we're accustomed to.
- JBJon Bernthal
That's right.
- JRJoe Rogan
And the way we think of war and we thi- we- we think of sacrifice and casualties.
- JBJon Bernthal
I think so.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, they just seems to, it seems to be a part of the culture, and it seems to be something they don't, they don't have a problem with.
- JBJon Bernthal
Yeah, I mean... You know, whether they have a problem with it or not, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's probably not the right question.
- JBJon Bernthal
Probably, yeah, yeah, right? I mean, like, I don't know, you know. It's, you- you- you know, I've had one, uh, friend of mine, I ca- I can't use his name, but I've- I've had him on the podcast a couple of times, you know, from- from Russia, and he's- he's Ukrainian, and his family's in Ukraine sort of just telling us what's going on on the ground and what the sentiment, uh, uh, is in- in- in Russia at the time. And, um... You know, I think for- for a lot of people there who- who- who are, who are able to sort of, like, ignore the propaganda and look beyond it and- and- and try to get to the truth, it's... I mean, he- he looks very much at his own culture and his own government as- as a cancer, and he- he- he looks at- at- at Putin as an absolute criminal. And, you know, he's- he's saying that, you know? He's- he's- he's risking his life by saying that, um, and how- how- how Putin deals with his political foes. And, um, and- and, you know, it's... I mean, even as I say this to you, man, it's- it's, uh... You know, my- my- my gratitude, you know, to- to that place and to that culture, it's... Man, it's- it's limitless to me, you know? It's like they... Again, I- I, you know, I- I'm able to-... do, do what I love and, and, uh, a- and, and feed my kids and, and, and, and, and, and have a family and, and I- I'm so grateful for it, and it wouldn't have happened if it, if it wasn't for there. And, and I'm just, uh, I, I just, I, I don't know how this is gonna end. I don't know how it ends.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JBJon Bernthal
I don't know how it works itself out, you know? And, um, I hate, you know, I, I hate that.
- JRJoe Rogan
How do they get objective information over there? How do they get past propaganda?
- JBJon Bernthal
Yeah, so, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Is it all state-sponsored and state-controlled?
- JBJon Bernthal
Everything, right? And, and, and again, look, I, I wanna be... well, I, I'm no, I'm no expert, you know? I mean, I've, I've talked to the people that I've talked to and, and I know for this, um, you, you know, for, for my one dear friend, um, you know, he is, um, able to access free internet with, you know, real internet, open internet, and that's how he's getting his, his information. Um, but I don't think that that's an easy thing to achieve. And, um, contact with people in Ukraine, the disparity in what the, the, the, the propaganda and the, the, the national sort of news outlets are saying versus what people are saying on the ground. Um, you know, and then I, I think what was huge is, is, is this, this draft, you know? That this was just supposed to be a military exercise.
- 1:00:53 – 1:16:24
America, discipline, and parenting: reading, sports, and building resilience
- JBJon Bernthal
You know, I m- look, m- y- y- you know, I was in a, I was in a car the other day when I, when I, when w- when I landed here yesterday from Savannah and, and the guy was just ... we were just talking about Austin, we were talking about Texas. And, and he was just ... the guy was from El Salvador, and he was just like, "You know, it's just like people, people in this country just don't (laughs) appreciate anything." Just have no idea it's the greatest country on Earth, and, like, they just have no idea. And, and that really, that really also was and, and is my big takeaway from spending time over there. Uh, y- y- you know, just how unbelievably lucky we are here. And, and, and I know, I mean, we started the conversation from out there about just how fucked up everything is, and of course it is. But, like, look, man, I'm like a guy who fucking puts on makeup and says lines for a living, and I can get ... come on here, you know, the biggest platform in the world, and we can talk about it. And I ... and, and, you know, the-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. (laughs)
- JBJon Bernthal
... the, the, the biggest threat, y- you know, to me is that, like, I'm gonna lose an acting role. You know what I mean?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. Right.
- JBJon Bernthal
It's like, you know, it ... that's, that's a real thing, man. And, and I just think y- y- you know, this country is just, uh ... I, I, I just think so many people in this country have no idea how good they have it and how, h- how great, uh, it ... you know, to me, it's the best country on Earth.
- JRJoe Rogan
It certainly is, and it's just we don't have a reference.
- JBJon Bernthal
That's right.
- JRJoe Rogan
If you're here your entire life and this is how you view things, and you're like, "Well, this place is fucked up-"
- JBJon Bernthal
That's right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and it certainly is.
- JBJon Bernthal
Sure.
- JRJoe Rogan
It certainly ... I mean, we're human.
- JBJon Bernthal
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Humans, we're filled with all sorts of flaws, and this culture and this ... the way our civilization is run, it's filled with all sorts of flaws. But it's the best example we have for a free society-
- JBJon Bernthal
That's right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... currently on Earth, which is hard for people to believe.
- JBJon Bernthal
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Especially people that look at all the inequality and look at all the chaos and look at all the, all the things that are wrong with this country-
- JBJon Bernthal
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and there's certainly a lot.
- JBJon Bernthal
Absolutely.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's still the best place.
- JBJon Bernthal
Agreed.
- JRJoe Rogan
And ... 'cause it's the best place to communicate. It's the best place-
- JBJon Bernthal
That's true.
- JRJoe Rogan
... to openly communicate. That's why things like what we were talking about, like, with the FBI being embedded in Twitter, trying to suppress certain narratives, it's so dangerous, because that's what leads you to Communist China.
- JBJon Bernthal
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's what lea- ... when, when the state has total control over the narrative and then the people that are involved in, uh, financing all that and profiting from all that are the ones that put these people in power and then control how the masses behave and think and communicate. It's leading us down this slippery road, and that's what scares the shit out of people. And I think rightly so.
- JBJon Bernthal
Agreed. Agreed. Yeah, I mean, I ... a- and, and I think we also at the, at the, the same time, you, you know, I, I think we need to be vigilant and we need to ... w- w- we need to be educated. We need to look into these things, and I think we also need to not jump to conclusions. And I think we need to be very cognizant about, you know, who we're listening to and, and, and, and you, you don't honestly ... y- you know, it's, it's, it's platforms like yours. It's, it's, it's finding people that, that we trust, that we just know, okay, look, this guy at least is telling his truth. There's no agenda behind it. There's no ... they're not trying to convince you of anything. It's, it's so unbelievably vital, uh, to, to, to, to hang onto that, and, and, and to know that people do have their hands in this information.
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, they don't ... do they have any kind of podcast like this in Russia? I mean, is that even possible to do?
Episode duration: 2:39:43
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