Joe Rogan Experience #1934 - Lex Fridman

1. 0:00 – 0:29

   ChatGPT shock: why it feels human (and why it's scary)

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

   2. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music) What's up, brother? How are you? Good to see you, my friend.

   4. LFLex Fridman0:14

      It's good to see you.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      Hey, uh, what have your people done? Your, your AI people with this fucking ChatGPT shit? This scares the fuck out of me.

   6. LFLex Fridman0:21

      Your people?

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:21

      It scares me.

   8. LFLex Fridman0:22

      What do you mean?

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:22

      Your AI people.

   10. LFLex Fridman0:23

       Your people? (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:24

       Your, your wacky coders. What have you done?

   12. LFLex Fridman0:27

       Yeah, it's super interesting.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:28

       Fascinating.

2. 0:29 – 5:48

   How ChatGPT works: parameters, code training, and alignment via humans

   1. LFLex Fridman0:29

      Language models, I don't know if you know what those are, but that's the general, uh, systems that, uh, underlie ChatGPT and GPT. They've been progressing over the past maybe four years aggressively. There's been a lot of development, GPT-1, GPT-2, GPT-3, uh, GPT-3.5. And ChatGPT, there's a lot of interesting technical stuff that maybe we don't wanna get into, but-

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:53

      Sure, let's get into it.

   3. LFLex Fridman0:54

      Well, there was-

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:54

      I'm, I'm fascinated by it.

   5. LFLex Fridman0:56

      So ChatGPT is based on fundamentally on 175 billion, uh, parameter neural network that is GPT-3, and the rest is what data is it trained on and how is it trained. So you already have like a brain-

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:12

      Mm-hmm.

   7. LFLex Fridman1:12

      ... a giant neural network, and it's just trained in different ways. So Chat... Uh, GPT-3 came out about two years ago, and it was like impressive but dumb in a lot of ways. It was like you would expect as a human being for it to generate certain kinds of texts, and it was like saying kind of dumb things that were off. And you're like, "All right, this is really impressive, but it's not quite there." You can tell it's not intelligent. And what they did with, uh, GPT-3.5 is they started adding more and different kinds of datasets there. One of them, probably the smartest neural network currently, is Codex, which is fine-tuned for programming. Like, it was, it was, uh, trained on code, on programming code. And when you train on programming code, which Chat, ChatGPT is also, you're teaching it something like reasoning, 'cause it's no longer, uh, information and knowledge from the internet. It's also reasoning. You can like logic. Even though you're looking at code, programming code is- (laughs) You're looking at me like, "What the fuck is he talking about?"

   8. JRJoe Rogan2:15

      (laughs) Oh, Jesus. No, no, no, no, that's not what I'm looking at.

   9. LFLex Fridman2:16

      But, so-

   10. JRJoe Rogan2:17

       I'm looking at you like, "Oh, my God."

   11. LFLex Fridman2:18

       But reasoning is a... In order to be able to stitch together sentences that make sense, you not only need to know the facts that underlie those sentences, you also have to be able to reason.

   12. JRJoe Rogan2:28

       Yeah.

   13. LFLex Fridman2:28

       And, and we think of it, we take it for granted as human beings that we can do some common sense reasoning. Like s- like this war started at this date and ended at this date, therefore it means that, uh, like the start and the end has a meaning. There's a temporal consistency. There's a cause and effect. All of those things are inside programming code. By the way, a lot of stuff I'm saying we still don't understand. We're like intuiting why this works so well.

   14. JRJoe Rogan2:55

       Really?

   15. LFLex Fridman2:55

       But, uh, y- these are the intuitions. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff that are not clear. So J- Chat... Th- so GPT-3.5, which ChatGPT is likely based on, there's no paper yet, so we don't know exactly the, the details, but it was just trained on, on code and more data that's able to give it some reasoning. Then this is really important, it was fine-tuned in a supervised way by human labeling. Small dataset by human labeling of here's what we would like this network to generate. Here's the stuff that makes sense. Here's the kind of dialogue that makes sense. Here's the kind of answers to questions that make sense. It, it's basically pointing this giant titanic of a neural network into the right direction that aligns with the way human beings think and talk. So it's not just using the giant wisdom of, uh, Wikipedia and this... Uh, I can talk about what datasets it's trained on, but just basically the internet. It was pointed in the wrong direction. So this, uh, supervised labeling allows it to point in the right direction to when it says shit, you're like, "Holy shit, that's pretty smart." So that, that's the alignment. And then they did, uh, something really interesting is using reinforcement learning, uh, based on labeling data from humans. That's, that's quite a large dataset. The task is the following. You have this smart GPT-3.5 thing generate a bunch of texts and humans label which one seems the best, so ranking. Like, uh, you ask it a question. Uh, for example, you could do, uh, generate a joke in the style of Joe Rogan, right? And you have a label that has five options, and you've... (laughs) You have a label. Does it mention dick and pussy?

   16. JRJoe Rogan4:38

       (laughs)

   17. LFLex Fridman4:38

       No, no. (laughs) I don't know which, I, I don't know how exactly.

   18. JRJoe Rogan4:41

       (laughs)

   19. LFLex Fridman4:41

       But, uh, it do... Uh, so you, you get it to rank. The, the human labeler is just over, just sitting there. There's a very large number of them. They're working full time. They're labeling the ranking of the outputs of this model. And that kind of ranking used together with a technique called reinforcement learning is able to get this thing to generate very impressive to humans output. So it's not actually... there's not a significant breakthrough in how much knowledge was learned. That was already in ch- in GPT-3, and there was much more impressive models already trained. So it's on the way, not just OpenAI. But this kind of fight- fine-tuning, it's called, by human labelers plus reinforcement learning, you start to get like, y- like where, uh, students don't have to write essays anymore in high school-

   20. JRJoe Rogan5:28

       Yeah.

   21. LFLex Fridman5:28

       ... or you can j- uh, style transfer, like I said, uh, do a, uh, Louis C.K. joke in the style of Joe Rogan or Joe, Jo- Joe Rogan joke in the style of Louis C.K., and does an incredible job, uh, at, at those kinds of style transfers. It can, uh, more accurately query things about the different historical events, all that kind of stuff.

3. 5:48 – 11:15

   Creative mimicry: jokes, style transfer, and the Ex Machina feeling

   1. JRJoe Rogan5:48

      Holy shit, man. The, the idea that you don't exactly know why it works the way it works, that, that's too close to human. That's t- too close to human thinking. Like, you know what this eerily, is, is eerily similar to? The plot of Ex Machina-... when he's talking about how he coded the brain.

   2. LFLex Fridman6:08

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan6:08

      Do you remember that, that plot? The, uh, that, that scene?

   4. LFLex Fridman6:12

      Uh, that scene when he was... Yeah, no. I don't know it.

   5. JRJoe Rogan6:14

      The gentleman, who's the g- what's the gentleman's name? The actor? That dude's badass.

   6. LFLex Fridman6:17

      He's really good, a really good actor.

   7. NANarrator6:18

      Oscar Isaac?

   8. JRJoe Rogan6:19

      Yeah.

   9. NANarrator6:20

      Isaac? Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan6:21

       Isaac?

   11. LFLex Fridman6:21

       Great casting.

   12. NANarrator6:21

       Oscar Isaac.

   13. JRJoe Rogan6:22

       He's amazing.

   14. LFLex Fridman6:23

       Alex Garland, the director.

   15. NANarrator6:24

       Oscar Isaac.

   16. JRJoe Rogan6:25

       Somebody out got him to make-

   17. NANarrator6:25

       Oscar Isaac.

   18. LFLex Fridman6:26

       He's incredible.

   19. JRJoe Rogan6:26

       He's in Star Wars and shit too. Yeah, no, the g- that movie was one of m- it's one of my top 10s. I love that movie. But that scene where he's d- des- ex-

   20. LFLex Fridman6:35

       Below John Wick 1, 2, and 3?

   21. JRJoe Rogan6:36

       (laughs) Uh, well, 3 was... I'm not a fan of 3. 3 didn't have any muscle cars.

   22. LFLex Fridman6:41

       Still worse than Scent of a Woman. Go on.

   23. JRJoe Rogan6:44

       (laughs)

   24. LFLex Fridman6:44

       Go back.

   25. JRJoe Rogan6:44

       It's worse than Scent of a woman? Which one? John Wick 3 or 1?

   26. LFLex Fridman6:48

       All of them.

   27. JRJoe Rogan6:48

       Don't tell... How dare you.

   28. LFLex Fridman6:50

       All of them.

   29. JRJoe Rogan6:50

       You ever watch-

   30. LFLex Fridman6:51

       It's silly man movies.
4. 11:15 – 15:59

   When AI becomes undetectable—and who controls it

   1. JRJoe Rogan11:15

      We... How far away are we from something like ChatGPT being impossible to detect? Like, whether or not it's a person or whether it's ChatGPT?

   2. LFLex Fridman11:27

      Well, it depends who is playing with it. I think we're not that far away in terms of capability. But in order to use these systems, and rather, in order to train these systems, you have to be a large company. And large companies tend to get scared when it's doing interesting stuff.

   3. JRJoe Rogan11:46

      Really?

   4. LFLex Fridman11:47

      Well, they tend to want to... Even currently, with ChatGPT, it's become a lot less interesting. Interesting spoken in a Bukowski, Hunter S. Thompson kind of interesting.... because the companies are kinda censoring it. You don't want it to have any kinda controversial opinions, you don't want it to be too edgy, you don't want it to be-

   5. JRJoe Rogan12:04

      Oh, really?

   6. LFLex Fridman12:05

      ... uh, too, like if I ask it how do I build a bomb 'cause I wanna destroy the world, you want it to prevent that. How about how do I, uh, uh, uh, uh, I don't know, convince... I, I don't know anything about this, but how do I convince, uh, a dude or a girl to sleep with me? And it'll go... Like anything, I'm just off the top of my head. Anything, you start to get nervous. Imagine if you're a company, how do I want people to use this kinda system?

   7. JRJoe Rogan12:29

      Right.

   8. LFLex Fridman12:30

      E- especially 'cause it's basically an assistant that gives you wisdom about the world, gives you knowledge about the world. You can ask Lila-

   9. JRJoe Rogan12:35

      I mean, it could be like how do I replace a carburetor?

   10. LFLex Fridman12:37

       Yeah. That's great.

   11. JRJoe Rogan12:38

       And it'll just answer you like a person.

   12. LFLex Fridman12:40

       Yeah, that's great.

   13. JRJoe Rogan12:41

       Yeah.

   14. LFLex Fridman12:41

       But then the...

   15. NANarrator12:43

       There it is. There it is. I was trying to log in the whole time, it was busy, which is-

   16. LFLex Fridman12:46

       Yeah.

   17. NANarrator12:46

       ... another problem of it's busy all day.

   18. JRJoe Rogan12:47

       Well, it's probably how many fucking people are using this?

   19. NANarrator12:50

       A lot.

   20. LFLex Fridman12:50

       Everybody.

   21. JRJoe Rogan12:51

       (laughs) Everybody's using this. It's freaking people out because it's, it's almost like the AI gives us its first messages. It's like, remember the movie, um... What was the fucking movie with, uh, Matthew McConaughey and, uh, Jodie Foster? Contact.

   22. LFLex Fridman13:08

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan13:09

       Contact. Remember Contact?

   24. LFLex Fridman13:10

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan13:11

       They get the first signals. This is like the first signals.

   26. LFLex Fridman13:14

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan13:14

       From like an, a real general artificial intelligence.

   28. LFLex Fridman13:18

       Well, that's the thing, and what, it's... The signal is blurry.

   29. JRJoe Rogan13:21

       Yeah.

   30. LFLex Fridman13:21

       It can't... And it's full of mystery. We're not sure, is it really smart? Does, how much does it understand? And then there's a, this emergent threshold with the size of the model. If we make the model bigger, 175 billion parameters currently, if we get it to 500, we get it to, uh, a trillion parameters, so size of the network grows. Size of the data set grows. Is there, is there going to be a point where you're like, "Holy shit"? It will, uh, what if it starts manipulating you with the, with the answers you provide?
5. 15:59 – 17:28

   Deepfakes and synthetic people: the next wave of deception

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:59

      What is going on here, Jamie?

   2. NANarrator16:01

      These aren't real people.

   3. JRJoe Rogan16:02

      What?

   4. NANarrator16:03

      Yeah, so these pictures are going around the inter... They're v- a lot of them look very similar to me, which is kinda weird. I'm sure Lex can explain that part of it, but...

   5. LFLex Fridman16:09

      I am not explaining any of this, no.

   6. JRJoe Rogan16:11

      (laughs)

   7. NANarrator16:11

      Yeah.

   8. LFLex Fridman16:12

      Uh, yeah, so like-

   9. JRJoe Rogan16:13

      So, like these are completely 3D, like-

   10. NANarrator16:16

       People.

   11. JRJoe Rogan16:16

       ... CGI-made people?

   12. LFLex Fridman16:17

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan16:17

       But...

   14. LFLex Fridman16:18

       Not 3- not 3D, it's 2D.

   15. NANarrator16:20

       Not 3D. So, like photo, very photorealistic, if not photorealistic, but like there are... When you look real close, you can see some weird things going on. Like the background here is a little messed up.

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:28

       Mm.

   17. NANarrator16:29

       This arm is not to the right person. She's sitting on an extra piece of skin here somehow.

   18. LFLex Fridman16:35

       I see you've analyzed this carefully.

   19. NANarrator16:36

       Well, me and my friends have been passing this around 'cause like it's too tricky.

   20. JRJoe Rogan16:38

       No, no, no, listen, you're incorrect. That arm's in the perfect perp-... It's just there's a string from that other girl's bikini on it.

   21. NANarrator16:45

       Uh...

   22. LFLex Fridman16:45

       The analysis continues.

   23. NANarrator16:46

       I'm just saying, so...

   24. JRJoe Rogan16:47

       Is that what it is?

   25. LFLex Fridman16:48

       Enhance, can you zoom in?

   26. NANarrator16:49

       I don't think so. I just, uh...

   27. JRJoe Rogan16:49

       Is that a string? No, I think you're right. I think it's a fold. S- zoom in on that spot.

   28. LFLex Fridman16:52

       For people just listening, we're-

   29. NANarrator16:54

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan16:54

       Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah.
6. 17:28 – 21:20

   Porn, violence, and kids online: normalizing psychopathy in digital spaces

   1. LFLex Fridman17:28

      I mean, in terms of obviously much of human civilization is driven by sex. I mean, there was a time we didn't have easily accessible porn.

   2. JRJoe Rogan17:35

      Right.

   3. LFLex Fridman17:35

      And that changed a lot.

   4. JRJoe Rogan17:37

      Yeah.

   5. LFLex Fridman17:37

      I mean, I don't think we've actually quite caught up to how much it's changed the, the nature of human civilization. It's just por... easily accessible porn. And-

   6. JRJoe Rogan17:44

      Yeah, I talk about it on stage right now. It's very weird. It's, it's, it's, it's very weird for kids. You really think about what's happening with kids. Like any kid that has a smartphone. T- people just leave their ki... Give your kid a phone, just leave them alone.

   7. LFLex Fridman17:56

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JRJoe Rogan17:56

      Like they just go, they go to school, they go to their friend's house, they have that phone-... independently of you. They could look at whatever the fuck they want. Some of the shit that I see just on Instagram, I don't know how these guys are doing it, and I don't know how it's getting recommended in my feed, but it's, like, videos of people getting murdered.

   9. NANarrator18:13

      Mm-hmm.

   10. JRJoe Rogan18:13

       You know? You see a lot of those?

   11. NANarrator18:15

       Th- Uh, w- Simulated porn.

   12. JRJoe Rogan18:17

       I haven't seen that.

   13. NANarrator18:18

       Strange stuff. I... Well, I am. (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan18:20

       You and I have different algorithms, you fucking creep.

   15. NANarrator18:23

       We have different... (laughs)

   16. LFLex Fridman18:24

       (laughs)

   17. NANarrator18:24

       But then someone gets taken down for something that's, like, they call it porn, and it's not porn or something. Like, whoa. Are you guys not seeing what else is on this platform?

   18. JRJoe Rogan18:29

       I mean, I think, right, that what's going on is that they're managing at scale. And I think it's, it's virtually impossible to stop all that stuff from coming in. And people that have individual situations where people get banned, I mean, I don't know why they're getting banned. Are they getting banned because of, of an algorithm? Are they getting banned because they post, uh, misinformation? Or what, what are they getting banned for?

   19. NANarrator18:54

       Harassment photos. Someone was joking about a friend-

   20. JRJoe Rogan18:57

       Harassment?

   21. NANarrator18:57

       ... you know, like, they post-

   22. LFLex Fridman18:58

       They get reported.

   23. NANarrator18:58

       Yeah. I don't-

   24. JRJoe Rogan18:59

       Oh.

   25. NANarrator18:59

       I don't know how it's all working when it breaks down to individual c- uh, circumstances.

   26. LFLex Fridman19:03

       We had a good conversation with, uh, with Jordan Peterson. He was talking about the more you have this kind of virtualization, the more you, uh, allow the psychopaths to, to reign free.

   27. JRJoe Rogan19:13

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   28. LFLex Fridman19:13

       So, like, the more we have artificially generated porn, the more we have artificially generated, uh, violence, photorealistic violence-

   29. JRJoe Rogan19:21

       Yeah.

   30. LFLex Fridman19:22

       ... the more you, um, make it normal for you to be basically a psychopath in a digital space. En- enable that and make that okay, and then you forget what it's like to actually be, uh, a good human being.
7. 21:20 – 23:17

   Brave New World vs 1984: pleasure-dystopia, scarcity, and meaning

   1. LFLex Fridman21:20

      I've been, uh, revisiting some classic books recently, just doing a reading list, and one of them that captures this extremely well that I recommend that I think most people read in, like, middle school or something, but it's actually very relevant is Brave New World.

   2. JRJoe Rogan21:32

      Mm.

   3. LFLex Fridman21:32

      So a, a lot of people, including Jordan Peterson, worry about 1984, sort of a totalitarian... A dystopia that represents a totalitarian state. But Brave New World has a... There's no centralized government that's, like, uh, dogmatic in controlling everything, surveilling everything. They basically created this world where sex is easy, ev- everyone's promiscuous, uh, genetic engineering removes any kind of diversity, any kind of interesting dark, uh, bad diversity that we would think of like the Hunter S. Thompsons and the, uh, the Bukowskis.

   4. JRJoe Rogan22:09

      Mm.

   5. LFLex Fridman22:10

      The, the weirdos of society. And then, it gives you, uh, drugs, soma, that's... It basically gives you pleasure whenever you want if you, uh, start feeling a little too shitty about your life. And that's actually-

   6. JRJoe Rogan22:22

      Closer to us.

   7. LFLex Fridman22:23

      ... closer to us. And it doesn't seem... If you... I mean, the way he writes about it, it sounds bad, like, we don't want that. But then you're like... You start to ask a question like, "Well, at which point would we realize it's bad?" Because it's constantly... Obviously, we should do genetic engineering to remove any kind of, like, um, maladies that we have, any kind of diseases. It's like everything is an obvious step forward, but then the place you end up at, just like with, with sex, like, is it good to have artificial images of as many as you want? As much porn as you want? As much sex as you want? Is that good? As much, uh, awesome stuff as you want, is that good? Is that what human flourishing looks like? Or do you want to have some constraints, some limitations, some finiteness of resources, some, some scarcity? Maybe that's actually fundamental for human happiness. Having too much of awesome stuff, maybe that destroys the possibility of real meaningful deep happiness.

8. 23:17 – 28:13

   Humans changing: fertility decline, plastics, and engineered evolution

   1. JRJoe Rogan23:17

      It d- it certainly does. But I think the question really becomes, are we gonna stay people? 'Cause I don't think we are. I think we're moving in that general direction anyway. I think that probably is why we have this, uh... I mean, it's almost inevitable if you have this addiction to cell phone issue because everybody has that. If you have a cell phone and you're on your social media apps during the day and you're on YouTube, you're probably addicted whether you realize it or not. And the number of hours that you put on those things is shocking. When you actually look at your screen time, you're like, "Six hours? I was on my phone for six hours? What the fuck did I do?" And you'll try to rationalize it and justify it, but what th- what that's doing to young people i- is g- gotta be very strange. And if that along with...... all the contaminants that are, um, affecting the way people develop, which are, you know, Dr. Shanna Swan from the book Countdown talks about this. She talks about phthalates and plastics and how you can trace back to, um, like, the 1950s when they really started using a lot of plastics and petrochemical products, um, that started getting into people's bodies in the form of phthalates. It started diminishing, um, sperm count and small, smaller penises and testicles and taints and, uh, more, um, uh, more miscarriages for women, lower fertility rates. All that is g- she believes is directly correlated with the data that they've done already on, uh, mammals. When they do that to mammals, you know, in tests, the more phthalates they enter into their system, the more they have issues like this. So, we're, we're becoming almost like, we're becoming like less able to procreate naturally. And if we get to a point where the human race's future, it's, the only way we're gonna be able to procreate is some sort of genetic engineering and some sort of, uh, artificial womb or some sort of a system that they develop that allows you to combine you and your partner's DNA and create a new child. That's, that seems to me like you, if you were gonna do that and you started engineering out very specific aspects of people that are problematic, anger, greed, jealousy, lust, all these different things, you would turn people into some sort of sexless thing that gets its pleasure by manipulating its neurochemistry through s- through some electronics, through some, eh, something. Well, maybe it's something you take so they can control it. But that's not far off of the path of possibility. If you really looked at where we're going now, and if, if the fertility rates drop, if they, if they really do, and I know people a lot smarter than me are actually worried about, like Elon's worried about the amount of p- children that people have.

   2. LFLex Fridman26:10

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan26:11

      Um, there was a thing today on I- on Italy. I was reading this article on Italy where they were talking about how the population's very old and they're not having a lot of kids. And like, this is unsustainable. Like, you can only do this for so long before you don't have anybody living there, there anymore. And we don't think of that as being a possibility, but it doesn't take that long if nobody has kids for there to be no more people left. Like how many, uh, hundred years? Like if nobody has kids, 100 years from now there's no people. It's real simple. You have to make people, and how many do you have to make? And can you make them? Because you might want to start making them when you're 37.

   4. LFLex Fridman26:45

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan26:45

      And you might go to a doctor and the doctor's like, "Well, this is touch and go. You're gonna have to do in vitro fertilization." And then you go through all this shit and you're taking shots and you're, you're fucking, you're timing everything, and ...

   6. LFLex Fridman26:56

      And on top of that-

   7. JRJoe Rogan26:57

      Ooh.

   8. LFLex Fridman26:58

      ... if you're not... By the way, still am getting, uh, funny audio every once in a while. Like-

   9. JRJoe Rogan27:02

      Oh, that's weird because I don't... Maybe it's a plug.

   10. LFLex Fridman27:04

       It's, must be the headphones. It's the headphones, yeah. There's like a plug.

   11. JRJoe Rogan27:06

       Yeah, I just unplug it and pull it back in.

   12. LFLex Fridman27:08

       (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan27:08

       Sorry.

   14. LFLex Fridman27:09

       Speaking of-

   15. JRJoe Rogan27:10

       How's that? Check, check. Better?

   16. LFLex Fridman27:11

       Check, check. Well, I don't know. It's better. It's usually better. It's 98% better. Oh, no, it's still dropping out, dropping in.

   17. JRJoe Rogan27:18

       Mm-hmm.

   18. LFLex Fridman27:19

       Interesting. Interesting.

   19. JRJoe Rogan27:20

       Maybe we got a bad headphone. Why don't you grab that headphone right there.

   20. LFLex Fridman27:23

       I'll get one just for you.

   21. JRJoe Rogan27:25

       Let me, uh, yeah, maybe that headphone's gone dead. Well, these are old as fuck.

   22. LFLex Fridman27:30

       Yeah, get a battery-powered.

   23. JRJoe Rogan27:30

       Probably need new ones. No, but I mean it's just like how many people have thrown up on that and fucking-

   24. LFLex Fridman27:36

       (laughs) How many people have thrown up on that?

   25. JRJoe Rogan27:37

       How many people have been drunk as fuck and banged that off the table?

   26. LFLex Fridman27:40

       How many people have worn these headph- like the legendary...

   27. JRJoe Rogan27:43

       Oh, a lot of fucking people have worn those headphones.

   28. LFLex Fridman27:45

       They're storied.

   29. JRJoe Rogan27:47

       It is weird. Like no one even thinks about it. You just kind of put them on. But, you know, if it was like a toilet seat-

   30. LFLex Fridman27:55

       Yeah.
9. 28:13 – 29:34

   AI companionship and manipulation: your funniest friend (and worst influence)

   1. JRJoe Rogan28:13

      We'll be right back, folks. Seems to be working now?

   2. LFLex Fridman28:15

      Yeah, it seems to be working.

   3. JRJoe Rogan28:16

      Okay.

   4. LFLex Fridman28:16

      I think.

   5. JRJoe Rogan28:16

      So where were we?

   6. LFLex Fridman28:18

      Uh, oh, on uh-

   7. JRJoe Rogan28:20

      People becoming robots.

   8. LFLex Fridman28:20

      ... not having sex anymore.

   9. JRJoe Rogan28:22

      Yeah, people becoming genderless.

   10. LFLex Fridman28:23

       And on top of that, I do think if we're not careful, I think there's exciting positive possibilities, but there's also, uh, negative possibilities of these AI systems like ChatGPT but later versions forming deep meaningful connections with human beings-

   11. JRJoe Rogan28:39

       Oh.

   12. LFLex Fridman28:39

       ... where most of your friends, no, most of your intimacy in terms of friendships and like a deep connection with an intelligent entity comes from, uh, AI systems.

   13. JRJoe Rogan28:51

       Could you imagine if you're driving to work and you and the AI are just having a conversation shooting the shit, and the AI is really funny, and the AI is your buddy. Like, "Lex, what's going on, bro? What are we doing? Lex, what are we doing with this bullshit job? Fuck this place."

   14. LFLex Fridman29:05

       Yeah, yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan29:05

       "Let's go home."

   16. LFLex Fridman29:06

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan29:06

       "Let's have ice cream." And you're laughing, "I got work to do."

   18. LFLex Fridman29:09

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan29:09

       "I know, I'm fucking around."

   20. LFLex Fridman29:10

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan29:11

       Imagine.

   22. LFLex Fridman29:12

       Yeah, what are you doing with that girlfriend?

   23. JRJoe Rogan29:13

       Yeah.

   24. LFLex Fridman29:13

       She keeps-

   25. JRJoe Rogan29:13

       Come on, Lex.

   26. LFLex Fridman29:14

       She, she keeps being mean to you, nagging you all the time. You don't need her.

   27. JRJoe Rogan29:18

       Coming off like a bitch, Lex.

   28. LFLex Fridman29:19

       (laughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan29:19

       You don't want to do that. She's not gonna respect you, you're gonna have to break up with her just so she respects you.

   30. LFLex Fridman29:23

       Why don't you murder her, Lex?
10. 29:34 – 1:06:50

    Broken brains, true crime, and ‘charming psychopaths’ in society

    1. LFLex Fridman29:34

       Did you hear the story about the guy that Googled all this stuff about like what to do with your own body?

    2. JRJoe Rogan29:37

       Oh my God, he Googled till like 9:30 in the morning.

    3. LFLex Fridman29:41

       (laughs)

    4. JRJoe Rogan29:41

       That sick fuck. Like how dumb... I guess some- look, we, we know, this is f- fact, we know some people are just really fucking dumb. They really can't see the future. I want to know if that guy was on anything too. I want to know if he was on any kind of psych meds. You know?

    5. LFLex Fridman29:57

       Uh, can you tell me the story again?

    6. JRJoe Rogan29:58

       Oh, so a guy killed his wife, man. And, um, they, they found, uh, his Google search. It's horrific. It's like how to dismember a body, how to, how long does it take for a body to dissolve. It's like, ugh. Is it best to cut someone up or move them whole? Like what the... He just Googled the most horri- and he did it for like the entire night into the morning.

    7. LFLex Fridman30:17

       Uh, is there results for that in a Google search?

    8. JRJoe Rogan30:19

       I don't know.... what happens if you put body parts in ammonia, how to clean blood from a wooden floor, dismemberment and the best ways to dispose of a body, can identification be made on partial remains, how long does DNA last. Like, what the fuck, man? How long before a body starts to smell? Can you be charged with murder without a body? This guy is fucking s- it's so sick. So this dude just goes through Google all night long trying to figure out how to get away with murder.

    9. LFLex Fridman30:49

       Well, he might actually get off on just asking the question, right?

    10. JRJoe Rogan30:53

        No. No, because then-

    11. LFLex Fridman30:54

        I don't know.

    12. JRJoe Rogan30:55

        ... they found a bloody knife.

    13. NANarrator30:56

        Yeah, like he went into a store and-

    14. JRJoe Rogan30:57

        They found... Yeah, they found-

    15. LFLex Fridman30:58

        No, I'm not- I'm not, like, pushing back. I'm just saying-

    16. NANarrator31:00

        Yeah.

    17. LFLex Fridman31:00

        ... he might also get off on...

    18. JRJoe Rogan31:02

        I don't think he's getting off at all.

    19. NANarrator31:03

        At- I don't know.

    20. JRJoe Rogan31:04

        I don't think he has a chance of getting off. They're- they're-

    21. LFLex Fridman31:05

        I- I have a lot of questions about-

    22. JRJoe Rogan31:07

        They found a knife.

    23. LFLex Fridman31:08

        ... human nature after, um... Maybe I'm, uh, naive in this, but I watched the- the- The Dahmer, um, documentary.

    24. JRJoe Rogan31:15

        Yeah.

    25. LFLex Fridman31:15

        No, not the documentary.

    26. JRJoe Rogan31:16

        The movie?

    27. LFLex Fridman31:17

        The movie.

    28. JRJoe Rogan31:17

        Yeah.

    29. LFLex Fridman31:18

        And then also the documentary. It's- it's like, it m- it gives you very different perspectives on what, like...

    30. JRJoe Rogan31:24

        Are you a Dahmer sympathizer now, boy?
11. 1:06:50 – 1:48:25

    Chess cheating, cyborgs, and Bluetooth sex-toy APIs

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:06:50

       I love that one dude who, uh, he cheats, and he's kind of like openly cheated, but he's also really good at chess.... that 19-year-old kid-

    2. LFLex Fridman1:06:58

       Oh, the guy that put a thing out?

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:06:59

       ... that, like, they, he might have when he beat, uh ...

    4. LFLex Fridman1:07:02

       Yeah.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:07:02

       W- w- who did he beat?

    6. LFLex Fridman1:07:03

       Uh, Magnus Carlsen.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:07:04

       Magnus Carlsen.

    8. LFLex Fridman1:07:05

       Yeah, Hans.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:07:05

       Yeah. That guy.

    10. LFLex Fridman1:07:06

        Yeah.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:07:07

        Like, that's a fascinating story.

    12. LFLex Fridman1:07:08

        Yeah.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:07:08

        Because that, like-

    14. LFLex Fridman1:07:09

        Yeah.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:07:09

        ... you would think that someone who cheats sucks. But no, he's actually really good at chess, and also he cheated, like, a gang of times, and his mentor cheated too.

    16. LFLex Fridman1:07:18

        Right.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:07:18

        And he cheated to try to get a higher rating online. And he, like, openly admits it. And you're like, "Jesus, what did he do with this?"

    18. LFLex Fridman1:07:23

        When he was younger.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:07:24

        Yeah.

    20. LFLex Fridman1:07:24

        Yeah.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:07:24

        But I was like, "Eh, not that young."

    22. LFLex Fridman1:07:27

        No, young. 13 or whatever, 14, 15.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:07:28

        No, no, no, no, no, no. I think the most recent one was, was, uh, a little later than they initially thought.

    24. LFLex Fridman1:07:35

        Sure. Well, the, the, the evidence there is, is complicated.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:07:38

        Right.

    26. LFLex Fridman1:07:38

        But it's, I mean, similar to steroids. Like, people that take-

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:07:41

        Yes.

    28. LFLex Fridman1:07:41

        ... steroids when they're competing in sports-

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:07:44

        Well-

    30. LFLex Fridman1:07:44

        They're already the elite.

Episode duration: 3:10:41