Joe Rogan Experience #1942 - Mark Greaney

1. 0:00 – 3:45

   Meeting Mark Greaney: violent thrillers, escapism, and sauna listening

   1. MGMark Greaney0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. NANarrator0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music) What's up, Mark? How are you?

   4. MGMark Greaney0:13

      (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      Nice to meet you, man.

   6. MGMark Greaney0:14

      It's very nice to meet you.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      I've read, uh, a l- I'm on the 11th book-

   8. MGMark Greaney0:18

      Oh, wow.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:19

      ... of yours now.

   10. MGMark Greaney0:19

       Oh, wow.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:20

       Yeah. So the whole Gray Man series, I'm in, uh, I'm on, um, Sierra Six.

   12. MGMark Greaney0:25

       Yeah, yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:26

       So-

   14. MGMark Greaney0:26

       The new one comes out immediately, so (laughs) -

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:29

       Yeah.

   16. MGMark Greaney0:29

       ... book 12 i-

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:30

       They sent me the new one.

   18. MGMark Greaney0:31

       Good.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:32

       Yeah, so I have a copy of it.

   20. MGMark Greaney0:33

       That's awesome. I appreciate you reading.

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       It's, uh, you write some fucked-up books, man. (laughs)

   22. MGMark Greaney0:39

       (laughs) It's true. It's true.

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:40

       Just, you seem like such a normal guy.

   24. MGMark Greaney0:42

       (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan0:42

       I was always wondering, I'm like, "How does someone write like this and not be a total psycho?" Like, the fact that you have those thoughts in your mind, and you can envision and create these scenarios in your brain.

   26. MGMark Greaney0:57

       Yeah, it, that pops into my head a lot when I'm talking to people-

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:00

       (laughs)

   28. MGMark Greaney1:00

       ... like, uh, my aunt who's passed away, but she was 93, and, you know, it's like, "Hey, Dorothy, here's my book about sex trafficking. I hope you enjoy it." (laughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:09

       (laughs)

   30. MGMark Greaney1:09

       You know, she re- she read it. And c- 'cause she would, my aunt, if I joined the Taliban, she'd be like, "Well, they, you know, they have some nice clothing," or something.
2. 3:45 – 5:27

   The Gray Man on screen: why the movie differs from the book

   1. JRJoe Rogan3:45

      Yeah, I w- I, um, I enjoyed The Gray Man movie, but it was not as good as your book. It just-

   2. MGMark Greaney3:51

      Thank you for saying that. I appreciate it.

   3. JRJoe Rogan3:52

      It just wasn't the same story.

   4. MGMark Greaney3:55

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan3:55

      Like, they, they, they Hollywoodized it.

   6. MGMark Greaney3:58

      Absolutely, and it, you know, I liked it, and, and what I say, and I don't know how this makes me sound, is, like, the movie is the best possible commercial for my writing. And if you're a writer, you want eyeballs on your work. And so, it's, I l- I love the movie, and, you know, there was d- bits of dialogue in there and I- things they did with the plot that, that I really liked, but, you know, it's not as gritty. It's not, um...

   7. JRJoe Rogan4:19

      Not nearly.

   8. MGMark Greaney4:20

      Yeah, you know, and, and they do things that they have to do shorthand in a, in a movie. I, I get 100,000 words to write a book or 150,000 words to write a book, so, um, I have some luxuries that, you know, they don't have putting something on the screen. But I like the fact that they're different in- to the- because there's still a reason to read my book. (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan4:38

      Yeah.

   10. MGMark Greaney4:39

       If you saw the movie and enjoyed it, hopefully it turns you onto the book and, and then you see something different in there.

   11. JRJoe Rogan4:43

       No, I definitely think there's that element to it, because it is, uh, it's, uh, it's m- for sure a Hollywoodized version of these gritty books that you write.

   12. MGMark Greaney4:52

       Right, yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan4:53

       But it's also good.

   14. MGMark Greaney4:54

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan4:55

       Like, if you didn't know about the book-

   16. MGMark Greaney4:57

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan4:57

       ... and you just saw the movie, it's good.

   18. MGMark Greaney4:59

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan4:59

       But-

   20. MGMark Greaney4:59

       They're two different things.

   21. JRJoe Rogan5:01

       But the book is so much fucking nastier.

   22. MGMark Greaney5:03

       (laughs) Thank you.

   23. JRJoe Rogan5:04

       It's, and also, Court Gentry-

   24. MGMark Greaney5:06

       I said, I said thank you. I don't know if that's what I should say. (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan5:07

       (laughs) You should. It's good. But Court Gentry in your books is just so much different than Ryan in the movies. It's just like...

   26. MGMark Greaney5:14

       Yeah, I mean, uh, they did a lot without dialogue, which I appreciated and I liked. You know, you know, he'd do a lot with a look. But, I mean, when you, in a book you're able to get into the character's head quite a-

   27. JRJoe Rogan5:24

       Yeah.

   28. MGMark Greaney5:25

       ... bit, quite a bit more, so it's a different experience.

3. 5:27 – 11:18

   Casting Court Gentry: Gosling, unknowns, and the Charlize Theron rewrite

   1. JRJoe Rogan5:27

      If you could pick a person, like an actor, if you could start from scratch, no disrespect to, it's Ryan Reynolds or Ryan-

   2. MGMark Greaney5:35

      Gosling.

   3. JRJoe Rogan5:35

      ... Gosling.

   4. MGMark Greaney5:35

      Yeah. Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan5:36

      Why do I always fuck that up?

   6. MGMark Greaney5:37

      (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan5:37

      I always fuck that up. I couldn't pick either one of them out of a fucking lineup to save my life.

   8. MGMark Greaney5:42

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan5:42

      Gosling. Ryan Gosling. I really like the guy, too.

   10. MGMark Greaney5:45

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan5:45

       By the way. Um, wh- uh, who would you pick if you w- if, you know, just, like, if you could just, like, say any actor. Like, who, who do you think you would go with?

   12. MGMark Greaney5:54

       You know, that's, it's, it's a tough question because th- the, that thing has been in Hollywood, the, the Gray Man's been in Hollywood since two months before the little paperback came out in 2009. So it's been-

   13. JRJoe Rogan6:03

       Hmm.

   14. MGMark Greaney6:03

       ... bouncing around, and I've heard every actor. At one point Brad Pitt was signed onto it, and-

   15. JRJoe Rogan6:08

       Really?

   16. MGMark Greaney6:08

       Yeah, yeah, like back 2011 or something. And then it fell apart, and it came back. And each time they would send me a script or whoever was doing it. And at one point Charlize Theron wanted to do it, and they rewrote-

   17. JRJoe Rogan6:18

       What?

   18. MGMark Greaney6:18

       Re- yeah, they rewrote the whole script.

   19. JRJoe Rogan6:19

       She wanted to be the girl?

   20. MGMark Greaney6:21

       Nope, she wanted to be Court Gentry.

   21. JRJoe Rogan6:22

       Oh, my God.

   22. MGMark Greaney6:23

       So they writ- they, they wrote a script for it, and it was good screenwriters, and I remember reading the script going like-

   23. JRJoe Rogan6:28

       Was it The Gray Woman or did you call her-

   24. MGMark Greaney6:30

       No.

   25. JRJoe Rogan6:30

       ... The Gray Non-binary Person?

   26. MGMark Greaney6:32

       It was... (laughs) It was still The Gray Man, her name was still Court Gentry, but every-

   27. JRJoe Rogan6:35

       What?

   28. MGMark Greaney6:36

       ... thing, everything was different. And then in, they never really explained, is that short for Courtney or something? They never-

   29. JRJoe Rogan6:40

       Oh, my God.

   30. MGMark Greaney6:41

       Um, but it was just a completely different plot, and I thought-
4. 11:18 – 14:52

   How Greaney became prolific: late publishing, momentum, and discipline

   1. JRJoe Rogan11:18

      It was great. You've written a lot of books, man.

   2. MGMark Greaney11:21

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan11:21

      And, you know, like you're super prolific with these books. It's very impressive. You're basically banging out w- one, what is it, like every like 10 or 11 months?

   4. MGMark Greaney11:29

      Yeah, it, almost two a year, but not quite. So my first book came out in '09 and Burner, my new one, is my 23rd book. So-

   5. JRJoe Rogan11:38

      Wow.

   6. MGMark Greaney11:38

      ... twen- 23 books in 12 years, something like that.

   7. JRJoe Rogan11:41

      That's incredible.

   8. MGMark Greaney11:42

      Yeah. It, it, it's be- it's because they've asked me to do it (laughs) and, you know, I have these opportunities. I, it took me 20 years to get published and so I've been trying-

   9. JRJoe Rogan11:48

      Really?

   10. MGMark Greaney11:49

       I've been trying to catch up. I didn't get published till I was 42 years old.

   11. JRJoe Rogan11:51

       Wow.

   12. MGMark Greaney11:51

       And so I'm desperately trying to like, you know (laughs) make up for lost time, I guess.

   13. JRJoe Rogan11:56

       So, what were you writing in all those years when you weren't publishing?

   14. MGMark Greaney12:00

       I wasn't-

   15. JRJoe Rogan12:00

       Were you just trying and just...

   16. MGMark Greaney12:02

       Yeah. I mean, honestly, I was lazy. Uh, I, I never believed anything could happen from it, but I like to write and I like to think about books and stuff, so I spent 15 years writing my first novel. I started it literally in 1990 and finished it in '05.

   17. JRJoe Rogan12:16

       Wow.

   18. MGMark Greaney12:16

       And never showed it to anybody. I mean, uh, you know, like three friends probably read it. And I put that aside and then I wrote my second book in seven months because it's like there's something about... You know, I always say everything in this world is cheapened by my ability to do it, you know? (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan12:31

       (laughs)

   20. MGMark Greaney12:31

       It's like I always wanted to learn a foreign language and, you know, I don't, I'm not super fluent in any foreign languages, but I speak some German and some Spanish. And, uh, it's like once, once I'd-... learned to do it, I'm like, oh, it, it's not that impressive because I can fricking do it, you know?

   21. JRJoe Rogan12:43

       Right.

   22. MGMark Greaney12:44

       And, and writing a book was the same way. For 15 years, it was this big albatross on, uh, you know, on, just hanging on me and I didn't know that I could ever do it. And, uh, and once I finished it, I was like, "Yeah, how hard did I really work?"

   23. JRJoe Rogan12:55

       (laughs)

   24. MGMark Greaney12:55

       That was mostly talking about, you know, (laughs) writing a book and not actually writing a book. So then I went out and wrote a book and Gray Man was actually my fourth completed novel. It was the first one to get published.

   25. JRJoe Rogan13:06

       Really?

   26. MGMark Greaney13:06

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan13:06

       So all those years, the 15 years, it was you just sort of not being fully committed to writing, or...

   28. MGMark Greaney13:13

       Yes, tha- that's it in a nutshell. 15 years for that first book, and then I got some momentum. Like once I finished it and I thought, hey, you know, it's, it... The internet was invented while I was writing the damn thing, so...

   29. JRJoe Rogan13:24

       (laughs)

   30. MGMark Greaney13:24

       I, I, like, looked up, like, how do you get published? 'Cause I never even looked at that, you know?
5. 14:52 – 23:40

   Quitting the day job: Medtronic, bad timing, and the leap into full-time writing

   1. JRJoe Rogan14:52

      So what was your job?

   2. MGMark Greaney14:54

      Uh, I worked in, I worked for a company called Medtronic, it was a medical device company. And, uh, I, it wasn't a dead-end- dead-end job, but I was making it a dead-end job (laughs) just because it wasn't really where I wanted to be. I wanted to be a writer and, um...

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:07

      What were you doing for them?

   4. MGMark Greaney15:08

      Um, I worked in, uh, international customer care. So we had subsidiaries in oth- it's a medical device company and we had subsidiaries in other countries, and, um, I would sort of get the, the supplies to the subsidiaries and go to trade shows and that sort of thing, so...

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:23

      And so when you left that job, did you say, "Hey guys, uh, I'm a published author, gotta go"? (laughs)

   6. MGMark Greaney15:29

      (laughs) Yeah, so there's a story to that, that it's, it's... My dad had passed away in 2005, and my dad, um, he had a kind of a white collar job. He ran the NBC affiliate in Memphis where I'm from, um, but he was very blue collar mindset in that you had to have a job and there was no way my dad would've let me quit my job. (laughs) Even though I'd- you know, my first book was just a, a paperback, mass market paperback, it wasn't a big release. It was Gray Man, it turned into something, but when it first came out, it was not a big deal other than the fact that Hollywood was interested. But I had this... You know, it, it wasn't quit-your-job money at all, and then they asked me to write two more books and, in the s- make a series out of it, which I never even had considered. I was just trying to hold something in my hand (laughs) with my name on it and a, and a title and a cover. I wanted to be, you know, that level of a published author. I had no higher ambition. And they asked me to continue it as a series and I said yes, and then I realized, it's like, oh my god, I, I've got to crank out three books in the next whatever number of months. It's like, I have to quit my job. Um, and it wasn't quit-your-job money as I said, and this was before the Hollywood money came in. So I went to my boss, I'd been with the company for like nine and a half years, I went to my boss and I put my notice in on a Wednesday. And the next Monday, they brought everybody in to the auditorium for a meeting, you know, 800 people there, and they're like, "Hey, listen, um, like sales are down or the economy..." You know, this is 2009, so you know, "The economy's not doing well," or whatever, "so we're offering voluntary separation. If you quit your job right now, we will give you a month's pay for every year you've worked here, we will give you insurance for a year, we will do this, this and this." Well, I'd quit my job four days before (laughs) and-

   7. JRJoe Rogan17:11

      (laughs)

   8. MGMark Greaney17:11

      ... so you think like, oh my gosh, there's this black cloud over me, and I was scared about quitting my job obviously, and, uh, and I remember my boss came into my cubicle right afterward, she's like, "I'm gonna talk to HR and see if they will allow you to come in." I'm like, "Why the hell would they do that?" I'm like, "I'm the best thing that's happened to HR in a while (laughs) you know?" This, this dummy quits three days before they offer you a ton of money to quit, so.

   9. JRJoe Rogan17:32

      (laughs)

   10. MGMark Greaney17:32

       So for, for about six months, I just felt like I had this cloud over my head and I'd done the stupidest thing in the world. And then the, the film, film rights got optioned for Gray Man and it still wasn't quit-your-job money, but it was like I can eat (laughs) for a year money. And, you know, within a couple of years, I was working with Tom Clancy and things started to really go in the right direction.

   11. JRJoe Rogan17:50

       Wow. That's an amazing story, man. I love it.

   12. MGMark Greaney17:53

       It could've gone either way. (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan17:55

       But isn't that, like, always how it works with some of the best stories?

   14. MGMark Greaney17:58

       Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan17:58

       That it could've gone either way?

   16. MGMark Greaney17:59

       Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's, there's a sad version of that story, too, and I'm lucky-

   17. JRJoe Rogan18:03

       Yeah.

   18. MGMark Greaney18:03

       ... that I, I didn't have to experience it.

   19. JRJoe Rogan18:04

       That's my problem when people start talking about, like, manifesting your reality-

   20. MGMark Greaney18:08

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan18:08

       ... and The Secret and stuff like that.

   22. MGMark Greaney18:10

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan18:10

       Like, yeah...... you know, talk to people that win-

   24. MGMark Greaney18:13

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan18:13

       ... and they'll tell you that story, that I knew it was gonna happen-

   26. MGMark Greaney18:16

       Right.

   27. JRJoe Rogan18:16

       ... and I made it happen. I had a vision board. Talk to people that tried and failed and are homeless-

   28. MGMark Greaney18:21

       Yeah. Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan18:21

       ... and they have a different version of this-

   30. MGMark Greaney18:23

       Absolutely.
6. 23:40 – 28:53

   Crafting a believable assassin: empathy, reader trust, and avoiding “aw, come on” moments

   1. JRJoe Rogan23:40

      It's really interesting to me 'cause you seem to be, like, a, a very, like, mild-mannered sort of a guy and you write f- for such a psychopath.

   2. MGMark Greaney23:49

      Yeah. (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan23:49

      Y- yeah, it's like, y- do you know about Robert E. Howard?

   4. MGMark Greaney23:52

      Mm-mm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan23:53

      Robert E. Howard is the guy who wrote the Conan books.

   6. MGMark Greaney23:55

      Oh, yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan23:56

      And he was, um, like, y- you know, kind of like a real quiet guy who lived with his mom and committed suicide in his early 30s.

   8. MGMark Greaney24:05

      Oh. Uh-huh.

   9. JRJoe Rogan24:05

      But he wrote the most savage fantasy novels-

   10. MGMark Greaney24:09

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan24:10

       ... about Conan the Barbarian.

   12. MGMark Greaney24:12

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan24:12

       And he did-... you know, all of them while he was this sort of quiet, soft-spoken guy.

   14. MGMark Greaney24:18

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan24:19

       And-

   16. MGMark Greaney24:19

       Yeah. I mean there's, there's not necessarily a correlation, (laughs) you know, between one or the other. I, I know, you know, guys that were Delta Force and they're as mild-mannered, uh, as possible. I mean, they weren't then, I'm sure, (laughs) -

   17. JRJoe Rogan24:31

       Right.

   18. MGMark Greaney24:32

       ... when they were down range. But, um, you, you just never know. And then as, as far as writers go, you know, there's, there's guys that write pretty, um, you know, accurate, you know, military or stuff like that. I, uh, what's different about my character, to some degree I think, is, like, he's a very empathetic guy. I don't want to make him, like, this square-jawed-

   19. JRJoe Rogan24:52

       Yeah.

   20. MGMark Greaney24:52

       ... you know, like, total badass. He definitely has a screw loose. He, he doesn't... His moral compass, you know, doesn't point true north or whatever, but he wants to do the right thing at the end of the day and he's empathetic and, uh, he's vulnerable in some ways that, that some of the other characters aren't. And I think, I think that's helped the series over the years.

   21. JRJoe Rogan25:11

       Mm. Yeah. No. I think so too. I mean, there's... He's got a compass.

   22. MGMark Greaney25:15

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan25:15

       And it's, it's kind of a fucked up compass-

   24. MGMark Greaney25:18

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan25:18

       ... but-

   26. MGMark Greaney25:18

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan25:19

       Yeah.

   28. MGMark Greaney25:19

       Yeah. In one of the books, uh, I think it was, uh, Gunmetal Gray, it was the sixth book, I, I remember near the end I was like, "I'm gonna have him do something that makes sense to him, but it's actually the readers... It's not what the readers are gonna want him to do." And, and I... That, that had never come up before and I was like, "Okay. This..." Like, if, if I'm reading this book I'm going like, "Don't, don't be an idiot. Don't, you know, don't do it that way. Don't do..." You know, it was basically the outcome of the story-

   29. JRJoe Rogan25:45

       Mm-hmm.

   30. MGMark Greaney25:45

       ... what, what he was gonna do with this, this guy that he'd rescued. And I was like, "But it makes sense to him, so am I okay with having a bunch of readers mad at me?" And I'm like, "You kind of have to go with your gut." And I was, and I, I said, "All right. I'm gonna have him do what, what makes sense in the story for the, this character, the way that I've built him up over six books."
7. 28:53 – 1:18:14

   Writing process and self-editing: pantsing, bad first drafts, and finishing under deadline

   1. JRJoe Rogan28:53

      (smacks lips) How... What is your writing process like? Do you like, do you, do you have ideas before you sit down and write them? Do you have, like, little notes of maybe that would be fun or maybe he could do this and then sit down and try to piece them all together? Like, how do you do it?

   2. MGMark Greaney29:06

      Yeah. I write sort of by the seat of my pants, but I do come up with some little, even if it's three pages of what the story is about, you know, this book is about artificial intelligence and robotics and the bad guy, you know, wants to destroy America or whatever, and then you flesh that out a little more and a little more. And then at some point, and this is what I always recommend to writers is just sit down and start writing and you'll figure what your story's about. I- if you, if you don't have any blueprint, (laughs) then I think you're gonna get yourself in trouble. But, I mean, everybody's different. I, I know some authors that they have every chapter completely plotted out-

   3. JRJoe Rogan29:44

      Oh, yeah.

   4. MGMark Greaney29:44

      ... and everything, and then they just go and write a chapter a day because they've spent months plotting it out.

   5. JRJoe Rogan29:48

      Hm.

   6. MGMark Greaney29:49

      And I, I kind of have to find the story in the stories I'm writing and, you know, the dialogue, two characters talking to each other and I'm like, "Well, there's no tension here. I have to create some tension." And you come up for some reason there's tension between these two people and then that informs another part of the story and then sooner or later you've got a book. Every, every book... I'm not a super confident writer, so every book it's, you know, spring/early summer is the biggest piece of crap in the world and then sometimes- somehow by August I get it turned in and edited by October and I'm happy with it and proud of it, but-

   7. JRJoe Rogan30:20

      My friend, Ari, has a little piece of paper on his laptop-It's a quote by Ernest Hemingway, it says, "Every first draft is shit."

   8. MGMark Greaney30:28

      (laughs) Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I- I- I have said... That's good. I've said it... If I died when one of my books is, like, 98% done, it- it's unusable. Like them-

   9. JRJoe Rogan30:38

      (laughs)

   10. MGMark Greaney30:38

       They wouldn't be able to fix it. I don't know if that's true or not but, like, you know, as a writer, you know where all the bodies are buried in a 160,000 word book.

   11. JRJoe Rogan30:44

       Yeah.

   12. MGMark Greaney30:44

       And it's like, "Oh, that doesn't make sense, and this connection here isn't there," and so, like, it kind of, like, weighs on you until you get everything cleaned up to the best, best you can.

   13. JRJoe Rogan30:53

       Yeah, Stephen King said that he doesn't really have an outline.

   14. MGMark Greaney30:56

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan30:56

       He just-

   16. MGMark Greaney30:56

       I believe it.

   17. JRJoe Rogan30:57

       ... he sits down and starts writing.

   18. MGMark Greaney30:58

       Yeah. He- he's amazing. He is, uh, just another species. (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan31:03

       Yeah.

   20. MGMark Greaney31:03

       I'm- I'm so impressed with that guy.

   21. JRJoe Rogan31:04

       Well, certainly in the early days of his career, right?

   22. MGMark Greaney31:07

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan31:07

       The early days of his career, it's- to me, it's the most interesting. And this is not to disparage people that are clean and sober. It's not to disparage-

   24. MGMark Greaney31:15

       (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan31:15

       ... the idea of getting clean and sober. You definitely should do that. Your health is more important than anything.

   26. MGMark Greaney31:20

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan31:20

       But-

   28. MGMark Greaney31:21

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan31:21

       ... when that guy was fucked up, he was writing some amazing shit.

   30. MGMark Greaney31:24

       Yeah, yeah. And he- he- he didn't create a genre, but he created a genre, basically.

Episode duration: 2:47:46