Joe Rogan Experience #1942 - Mark Greaney

Mark Greaney 0:00 (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

Narrator 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music) What's up, Mark? How are you?

Mark Greaney 0:13 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:13 Nice to meet you, man.

Mark Greaney 0:14 It's very nice to meet you.

Joe Rogan 0:15 I've read, uh, a l- I'm on the 11th book-

Mark Greaney 0:18 Oh, wow.

Joe Rogan 0:19 ... of yours now.

Mark Greaney 0:19 Oh, wow.

Joe Rogan 0:20 Yeah. So the whole Gray Man series, I'm in, uh, I'm on, um, Sierra Six.

Mark Greaney 0:25 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:26 So-

Mark Greaney 0:26 The new one comes out immediately, so (laughs) -

Joe Rogan 0:29 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 0:29 ... book 12 i-

Joe Rogan 0:30 They sent me the new one.

Mark Greaney 0:31 Good.

Joe Rogan 0:32 Yeah, so I have a copy of it.

Mark Greaney 0:33 That's awesome. I appreciate you reading.

Joe Rogan 0:34 It's, uh, you write some fucked-up books, man. (laughs)

Mark Greaney 0:39 (laughs) It's true. It's true.

Joe Rogan 0:40 Just, you seem like such a normal guy.

Mark Greaney 0:42 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:42 I was always wondering, I'm like, "How does someone write like this and not be a total psycho?" Like, the fact that you have those thoughts in your mind, and you can envision and create these scenarios in your brain.

Mark Greaney 0:57 Yeah, it, that pops into my head a lot when I'm talking to people-

Joe Rogan 1:00 (laughs)

Mark Greaney 1:00 ... like, uh, my aunt who's passed away, but she was 93, and, you know, it's like, "Hey, Dorothy, here's my book about sex trafficking. I hope you enjoy it." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:09 (laughs)

Mark Greaney 1:09 You know, she re- she read it. And c- 'cause she would, my aunt, if I joined the Taliban, she'd be like, "Well, they, you know, they have some nice clothing," or something.

Joe Rogan 1:16 She'd, she'd find a positive.

Mark Greaney 1:17 She'd never c- she'd, she'd find a positive, so she never complained about anything. But, yeah, uh, uh, I do run into people all the time, you know, k- kids' parents, or, you know, on my soccer team, my kid's soccer team or whatever, and, and I'm like, "I wonder what they think of me" (laughs) because-

Joe Rogan 1:30 I wonder if they know-

Mark Greaney 1:31 Yeah, well-

Joe Rogan 1:31 ... like, how many of them have read your books.

Mark Greaney 1:33 Yeah, it's the ones that say they've read my books, and then I kind of go like, "Ah, crap."

Joe Rogan 1:37 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 1:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:38 I get that with parents when they say they've listened to my podcasts. "Oh, really? I love your podcast." I'm like, "Shit."

Mark Greaney 1:43 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:43 And then I go... (laughs)

Mark Greaney 1:44 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:45 I'm like, "What kind of psycho stuff do we have to talk about now?"

Mark Greaney 1:47 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:48 But your, your books are so violent. They're so cr- it's like, for me, it's, uh, I really, I listen to 'em, uh, on, um, on audio when I'm in the sauna all the time.

Mark Greaney 2:00 Oh, great.

Joe Rogan 2:00 'Cause the sauna's so, uh, torturous-

Mark Greaney 2:02 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:02 ... you know, 'cause, uh, they keep it at 190 degrees, and I'm in there for 25 minutes. It's fucking rough.

Mark Greaney 2:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:07 And it's like that kind of, like, s- the, the, the kind of insane narratives that you create, the kind of, you know, situations that you create in your mind, they're, they're very good when you're suffering.

Mark Greaney 2:22 Yeah. Well, thanks.

Joe Rogan 2:23 (laughs)

Mark Greaney 2:24 Yeah, I have a, a blue-collar, like, philosophy about writing. Like, I like generating a product that people can use if their flight's delayed or-

Joe Rogan 2:31 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 2:31 ... you know, they're snowed in or whatever, and I get people emailing me all the time. It's like, "Hey, I read your book when my mom was sick, and I was in the hospital, and-" you know, I l- I like that, you know, th- that it serves a sort of physical purpose, you know. Like, it's an, it's an, it's an instrument. It's not just an idea.

Joe Rogan 2:47 It's a great instrument of escapism-

Mark Greaney 2:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:49 ... because th- because it's so compelling and because the books are so interesting. And by the way, shout-out to, uh, Jack Carr, 'cause Jack Carr is the guy who turned me onto you.

Mark Greaney 2:57 Oh, that's fantastic.

Joe Rogan 2:58 'Cause I had read his first book, and I was like, "This is great. Do you have any other authors that you recommend? Like, who are you into?" And then he told me about you.

Mark Greaney 3:05 Yeah, yeah, we've been friends from before his first book came out. Uh, I, we were connected with one another through a guy in the firearms industry. And, and I was like, "Yeah, I think this g-" I'd read his book. I was like, "Yeah, he's going somewhere." Little did I know, he, I think he'd already had it optioned and, uh, for, for TV, so he was good.

Joe Rogan 3:21 Yeah, he's just an awesome person, too.

Mark Greaney 3:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:23 You know, uh, he's just a, a really great guy. You know, I met him, uh, a few years back in, uh, elk-hunting camp.

Mark Greaney 3:29 Oh, wow.

Joe Rogan 3:30 It's actually where I met him in, in Utah.

Mark Greaney 3:31 Oh, wow.

Joe Rogan 3:32 And, uh, I didn't know who he was. I hadn't read any of his books. He gave me a copy of his book, just seemed like a really nice guy.

Mark Greaney 3:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:38 And then I got it, and I'm like, "This book is fucking great."

Mark Greaney 3:40 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:41 And got into it-

Mark Greaney 3:41 You did great with the series, too. I, I-

Joe Rogan 3:42 Oh, yeah.

Mark Greaney 3:43 ... I was imp- impressed with it, you know? I was really impressed.

Joe Rogan 3:45 Yeah, I w- I, um, I enjoyed The Gray Man movie, but it was not as good as your book. It just-

Mark Greaney 3:51 Thank you for saying that. I appreciate it.

Joe Rogan 3:52 It just wasn't the same story.

Mark Greaney 3:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:55 Like, they, they, they Hollywoodized it.

Mark Greaney 3:58 Absolutely, and it, you know, I liked it, and, and what I say, and I don't know how this makes me sound, is, like, the movie is the best possible commercial for my writing. And if you're a writer, you want eyeballs on your work. And so, it's, I l- I love the movie, and, you know, there was d- bits of dialogue in there and I- things they did with the plot that, that I really liked, but, you know, it's not as gritty. It's not, um...

Joe Rogan 4:19 Not nearly.

Mark Greaney 4:20 Yeah, you know, and, and they do things that they have to do shorthand in a, in a movie. I, I get 100,000 words to write a book or 150,000 words to write a book, so, um, I have some luxuries that, you know, they don't have putting something on the screen. But I like the fact that they're different in- to the- because there's still a reason to read my book. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:38 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 4:39 If you saw the movie and enjoyed it, hopefully it turns you onto the book and, and then you see something different in there.

Joe Rogan 4:43 No, I definitely think there's that element to it, because it is, uh, it's, uh, it's m- for sure a Hollywoodized version of these gritty books that you write.

Mark Greaney 4:52 Right, yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:53 But it's also good.

Mark Greaney 4:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:55 Like, if you didn't know about the book-

Mark Greaney 4:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:57 ... and you just saw the movie, it's good.

Mark Greaney 4:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:59 But-

Mark Greaney 4:59 They're two different things.

Joe Rogan 5:01 But the book is so much fucking nastier.

Mark Greaney 5:03 (laughs) Thank you.

Joe Rogan 5:04 It's, and also, Court Gentry-

Mark Greaney 5:06 I said, I said thank you. I don't know if that's what I should say. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:07 (laughs) You should. It's good. But Court Gentry in your books is just so much different than Ryan in the movies. It's just like...

Mark Greaney 5:14 Yeah, I mean, uh, they did a lot without dialogue, which I appreciated and I liked. You know, you know, he'd do a lot with a look. But, I mean, when you, in a book you're able to get into the character's head quite a-

Joe Rogan 5:24 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 5:25 ... bit, quite a bit more, so it's a different experience.

Joe Rogan 5:27 If you could pick a person, like an actor, if you could start from scratch, no disrespect to, it's Ryan Reynolds or Ryan-

Mark Greaney 5:35 Gosling.

Joe Rogan 5:35 ... Gosling.

Mark Greaney 5:35 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:36 Why do I always fuck that up?

Mark Greaney 5:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:37 I always fuck that up. I couldn't pick either one of them out of a fucking lineup to save my life.

Mark Greaney 5:42 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:42 Gosling. Ryan Gosling. I really like the guy, too.

Mark Greaney 5:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:45 By the way. Um, wh- uh, who would you pick if you w- if, you know, just, like, if you could just, like, say any actor. Like, who, who do you think you would go with?

Mark Greaney 5:54 You know, that's, it's, it's a tough question because th- the, that thing has been in Hollywood, the, the Gray Man's been in Hollywood since two months before the little paperback came out in 2009. So it's been-

Joe Rogan 6:03 Hmm.

Mark Greaney 6:03 ... bouncing around, and I've heard every actor. At one point Brad Pitt was signed onto it, and-

Joe Rogan 6:08 Really?

Mark Greaney 6:08 Yeah, yeah, like back 2011 or something. And then it fell apart, and it came back. And each time they would send me a script or whoever was doing it. And at one point Charlize Theron wanted to do it, and they rewrote-

Joe Rogan 6:18 What?

Mark Greaney 6:18 Re- yeah, they rewrote the whole script.

Joe Rogan 6:19 She wanted to be the girl?

Mark Greaney 6:21 Nope, she wanted to be Court Gentry.

Joe Rogan 6:22 Oh, my God.

Mark Greaney 6:23 So they writ- they, they wrote a script for it, and it was good screenwriters, and I remember reading the script going like-

Joe Rogan 6:28 Was it The Gray Woman or did you call her-

Mark Greaney 6:30 No.

Joe Rogan 6:30 ... The Gray Non-binary Person?

Mark Greaney 6:32 It was... (laughs) It was still The Gray Man, her name was still Court Gentry, but every-

Joe Rogan 6:35 What?

Mark Greaney 6:36 ... thing, everything was different. And then in, they never really explained, is that short for Courtney or something? They never-

Joe Rogan 6:40 Oh, my God.

Mark Greaney 6:41 Um, but it was just a completely different plot, and I thought-

Joe Rogan 6:43 Thank God they didn't do that.

Mark Greaney 6:44 I thought if they changed, you know, like, if it... And I love her 'cause she had just done, uh, Fury Road, so I mean, I'd love to (laughs) write something that she, for her to be in.

Joe Rogan 6:53 I didn't see Fury Road. Who was that?

Mark Greaney 6:54 Oh, The Mad Max? Uh, Mad... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:56 Oh. Oh, Mad Max.

Mark Greaney 6:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:57 Yeah. Okay.

Mark Greaney 6:58 Um, she was so good, but as an author, you couldn't put out The Gray Man novel with her face on it and they open the book and it has nothing to do, um, you know, with a woman. And, and a- as much as I love her, like, I was like, "Well this isn't gonna, you know, sell, (laughs) sell books or-"

Joe Rogan 7:15 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 7:15 "... get eyes in, in my work." The screenplay was actually really good, but I remember thinking if I went to the theater and saw it and it had a different title, I would not even know. There'd be like one scene where I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I did a thing on a plane too." You know?

Joe Rogan 7:26 (laughs)

Mark Greaney 7:26 It was so different, it was a completely different plot. It was good. I wish they'd make it and call it something else.

Joe Rogan 7:31 Yeah, make it and call it something else.

Mark Greaney 7:33 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 7:33 You don't call it The Gray Man. It's... That's such a weird choice.

Mark Greaney 7:38 Yeah. Yeah. At one point, like real early on when it first got optioned people were asking me who should play the character, and I thought it would be somebody who's not like, you know, Rambo or anything like that.

Joe Rogan 7:49 Right.

Mark Greaney 7:49 So I was saying like Casey Affleck or somebody like that-

Joe Rogan 7:52 Oh, interesting.

Mark Greaney 7:52 ... that, that you wouldn't expect, uh, you know, in a big action film.

Joe Rogan 7:56 But wouldn't you need someone who's like physically formidable?

Mark Greaney 7:59 (sighs) Y- you know, I don't... The thing is, is I've written 12 books and I've never once had him working out. (laughs) I've never shown him working-

Joe Rogan 8:07 I know, isn't that crazy?

Mark Greaney 8:08 I've never shown him working out, you know, or even really training because-

Joe Rogan 8:11 Well, you talked a couple of times about him doing like calisthenics or something.

Mark Greaney 8:15 Oh, yeah. I got, yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:16 Isn't that crazy?

Mark Greaney 8:16 I threw, I've thrown it in a little bit because I'm like, "All right, how, how does this possibly happen?" (laughs)

Joe Rogan 8:20 Right.

Mark Greaney 8:20 How does he keep these perishable skills up-

Joe Rogan 8:23 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 8:23 ... and, and his fitness up? But, you know, there's, there's actors that like I really like, like Max Martini, I don't know if you know who that is.

Joe Rogan 8:29 I don't know who that is.

Mark Greaney 8:29 Um, you've known him if you saw him. He's, he, he was in 13 Hours. It was a really good movie and, um, the Michael Bay film. Wow, look at that. That is amazing. Um, and so he's, you know, he's like a formidable dude and a, a really good actor, but there's, you know, he doesn't... I, I like the physical presence of him.

Joe Rogan 8:48 Yeah, he might be good too because even though he's kind of recognizable it's not Brad Pitt.

Mark Greaney 8:54 Right.

Joe Rogan 8:54 Like, every time Brad Pitt's in a movie, it's Brad Pitt.

Mark Greaney 8:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:56 If that guy's in a movie you could say, "Oh, I think I've seen that guy in something before."

Mark Greaney 9:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:00 But, but he's Court Gentry.

Mark Greaney 9:02 Yeah, exactly. Well, I got a ton of people mad that Ryan Gosling was in it before it came out, and they were like, "You need to get some unknown guy because nobody recognizes the Gray Man."

Joe Rogan 9:12 Right.

Mark Greaney 9:12 And I'm like, "You probably don't understand how $200 million movies work."

Joe Rogan 9:16 (laughs)

Mark Greaney 9:17 They don't... (laughs) "What we're gonna do is we're gonna get this guy out of, you know, find the guy at the mall and make him the..." You know, it's just, just not how it works, and so...

Joe Rogan 9:24 It's too bad because I, I don't really know if it makes a difference. I think they think it makes a difference-

Mark Greaney 9:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:32 ... but I think if you have a movie that has an amazing plot and a great like trailer and it looks wild and-

Mark Greaney 9:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:40 ... like people... I think people get sucked into it anyway.

Mark Greaney 9:43 Yeah, and, and honestly like one of the best films I've ever seen in my life, which is an action film, it's a Korean film called The Man from Nowhere, and it's also... And fortunately it came out after The Gray Man did otherwise people would think I'd ripped off The Gray Man, um, because it's about a c- a former assassin who's trying to lay low and he ends up having to rescue this girl.

Joe Rogan 10:03 Well, the book though came so much earlier than the movie. Like how many years was it between you writing the book and then the film coming out?

Mark Greaney 10:10 I wrote the book in 20- 2007.

Joe Rogan 10:12 Oh, wow.

Mark Greaney 10:12 It came out in '09 and it, and the film came out in '22, and so it's like 13 years.

Joe Rogan 10:17 Wow.

Mark Greaney 10:17 I was still lucky, you know?

Joe Rogan 10:18 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 10:18 Everybody's like, "I bet you hate that you had to wait this long." And I'm like, "If, if, you know, if I was an 85-year-old man and they, and they made s- a film out of one of my books, I'd, I'd be thrilled," so...

Joe Rogan 10:27 Yeah, it's a, it's a rare thing, right?

Mark Greaney 10:29 For sure.

Joe Rogan 10:29 So, especially a big blockbuster film-

Mark Greaney 10:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:32 ... with Ryan Gosling?

Mark Greaney 10:33 (laughs) You're getting it.

Joe Rogan 10:35 Gosling. (laughs) There it is.

Mark Greaney 10:37 There we go.

Joe Rogan 10:37 Chris Evans is great in that too.

Mark Greaney 10:39 Yeah, he was terrific.

Joe Rogan 10:39 Yeah. He, he really put, played an awesome version of the character you wrote in the book.

Mark Greaney 10:44 Yeah. And that's a, that's an example of a difference in the film that I, that I liked, you know?

Joe Rogan 10:49 Yes.

Mark Greaney 10:49 Because M- My Lloyd in, in the book is not like a physical presence, he's more of like the asshole master- mastermind of the whole thing.

Joe Rogan 10:58 Right.

Mark Greaney 10:58 And, but I mean, obviously if they can get Chris Evans in their film, they're gonna beef up his role and, and-

Joe Rogan 11:02 Yes.

Mark Greaney 11:03 ... make it a more mono y mono thing, and, and I thought that was fabulous.

Joe Rogan 11:06 Yeah, and, and Chris Evans just really nailed it.

Mark Greaney 11:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:09 He, he played the perfect douchebag-

Mark Greaney 11:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:11 ... asshole-

Mark Greaney 11:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:12 ... cocky, confident psychopath.

Mark Greaney 11:14 Yeah. It looked like he was having fun.

Joe Rogan 11:15 Yes.

Mark Greaney 11:16 Which is what you like to see.

Joe Rogan 11:17 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was great.

Mark Greaney 11:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:18 It was great. You've written a lot of books, man.

Mark Greaney 11:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:21 And, you know, like you're super prolific with these books. It's very impressive. You're basically banging out w- one, what is it, like every like 10 or 11 months?

Mark Greaney 11:29 Yeah, it, almost two a year, but not quite. So my first book came out in '09 and Burner, my new one, is my 23rd book. So-

Joe Rogan 11:38 Wow.

Mark Greaney 11:38 ... twen- 23 books in 12 years, something like that.

Joe Rogan 11:41 That's incredible.

Mark Greaney 11:42 Yeah. It, it, it's be- it's because they've asked me to do it (laughs) and, you know, I have these opportunities. I, it took me 20 years to get published and so I've been trying-

Joe Rogan 11:48 Really?

Mark Greaney 11:49 I've been trying to catch up. I didn't get published till I was 42 years old.

Joe Rogan 11:51 Wow.

Mark Greaney 11:51 And so I'm desperately trying to like, you know (laughs) make up for lost time, I guess.

Joe Rogan 11:56 So, what were you writing in all those years when you weren't publishing?

Mark Greaney 12:00 I wasn't-

Joe Rogan 12:00 Were you just trying and just...

Mark Greaney 12:02 Yeah. I mean, honestly, I was lazy. Uh, I, I never believed anything could happen from it, but I like to write and I like to think about books and stuff, so I spent 15 years writing my first novel. I started it literally in 1990 and finished it in '05.

Joe Rogan 12:16 Wow.

Mark Greaney 12:16 And never showed it to anybody. I mean, uh, you know, like three friends probably read it. And I put that aside and then I wrote my second book in seven months because it's like there's something about... You know, I always say everything in this world is cheapened by my ability to do it, you know? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:31 (laughs)

Mark Greaney 12:31 It's like I always wanted to learn a foreign language and, you know, I don't, I'm not super fluent in any foreign languages, but I speak some German and some Spanish. And, uh, it's like once, once I'd-... learned to do it, I'm like, oh, it, it's not that impressive because I can fricking do it, you know?

Joe Rogan 12:43 Right.

Mark Greaney 12:44 And, and writing a book was the same way. For 15 years, it was this big albatross on, uh, you know, on, just hanging on me and I didn't know that I could ever do it. And, uh, and once I finished it, I was like, "Yeah, how hard did I really work?"

Joe Rogan 12:55 (laughs)

Mark Greaney 12:55 That was mostly talking about, you know, (laughs) writing a book and not actually writing a book. So then I went out and wrote a book and Gray Man was actually my fourth completed novel. It was the first one to get published.

Joe Rogan 13:06 Really?

Mark Greaney 13:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:06 So all those years, the 15 years, it was you just sort of not being fully committed to writing, or...

Mark Greaney 13:13 Yes, tha- that's it in a nutshell. 15 years for that first book, and then I got some momentum. Like once I finished it and I thought, hey, you know, it's, it... The internet was invented while I was writing the damn thing, so...

Joe Rogan 13:24 (laughs)

Mark Greaney 13:24 I, I, like, looked up, like, how do you get published? 'Cause I never even looked at that, you know?

Joe Rogan 13:28 Right.

Mark Greaney 13:28 And then everything I'd done in the book was wrong as far as, like, it was too big, there were too many characters, you know, there were just things they'd recommend against. So I, um, you know, I tried to write something a little bit more mainstream and I got that in front of an agent and he said it wasn't mainstream enough, but I was a good writer so keep trying. So it was this continually falling on my face, but falling forward, you know?

Joe Rogan 13:50 Hm.

Mark Greaney 13:50 And, and, and there was... I've had very few epiphanies in my life. I'm not one of those naval gazing people, but, but I had this epiphany one day that like, okay, nothing... I was in my late 30s, I was not successful in my job, I worked in a cubicle and I was destined to do that for the rest of life, and I was frustrated about not going anywhere. And there was just this point where I, I said, "I like to write. I like to, you know, walk down the street and think about, you know, some espionage theme or something, and I like to do research, and I like to type stuff out and fix it up." And it's like, okay, nothing's gonna come of this, but the thing that's gonna come of this is y- you're doing something you enjoy to do. And honestly, that just let a lot of steam out of the kettle and, and suddenly, I wasn't like, I'm a 39-year-old man who's, you know, has no success, and I just became this guy that's like, oh, you know, I like writing books and I think each one's getting a little better and maybe something will happen someday, and, and really quickly, I got, I mean, you know, within a, a couple of years, I was, I was published.

Joe Rogan 14:51 That's amazing.

Mark Greaney 14:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:52 So what was your job?

Mark Greaney 14:54 Uh, I worked in, I worked for a company called Medtronic, it was a medical device company. And, uh, I, it wasn't a dead-end- dead-end job, but I was making it a dead-end job (laughs) just because it wasn't really where I wanted to be. I wanted to be a writer and, um...

Joe Rogan 15:07 What were you doing for them?

Mark Greaney 15:08 Um, I worked in, uh, international customer care. So we had subsidiaries in oth- it's a medical device company and we had subsidiaries in other countries, and, um, I would sort of get the, the supplies to the subsidiaries and go to trade shows and that sort of thing, so...

Joe Rogan 15:23 And so when you left that job, did you say, "Hey guys, uh, I'm a published author, gotta go"? (laughs)

Mark Greaney 15:29 (laughs) Yeah, so there's a story to that, that it's, it's... My dad had passed away in 2005, and my dad, um, he had a kind of a white collar job. He ran the NBC affiliate in Memphis where I'm from, um, but he was very blue collar mindset in that you had to have a job and there was no way my dad would've let me quit my job. (laughs) Even though I'd- you know, my first book was just a, a paperback, mass market paperback, it wasn't a big release. It was Gray Man, it turned into something, but when it first came out, it was not a big deal other than the fact that Hollywood was interested. But I had this... You know, it, it wasn't quit-your-job money at all, and then they asked me to write two more books and, in the s- make a series out of it, which I never even had considered. I was just trying to hold something in my hand (laughs) with my name on it and a, and a title and a cover. I wanted to be, you know, that level of a published author. I had no higher ambition. And they asked me to continue it as a series and I said yes, and then I realized, it's like, oh my god, I, I've got to crank out three books in the next whatever number of months. It's like, I have to quit my job. Um, and it wasn't quit-your-job money as I said, and this was before the Hollywood money came in. So I went to my boss, I'd been with the company for like nine and a half years, I went to my boss and I put my notice in on a Wednesday. And the next Monday, they brought everybody in to the auditorium for a meeting, you know, 800 people there, and they're like, "Hey, listen, um, like sales are down or the economy..." You know, this is 2009, so you know, "The economy's not doing well," or whatever, "so we're offering voluntary separation. If you quit your job right now, we will give you a month's pay for every year you've worked here, we will give you insurance for a year, we will do this, this and this." Well, I'd quit my job four days before (laughs) and-

Joe Rogan 17:11 (laughs)

Mark Greaney 17:11 ... so you think like, oh my gosh, there's this black cloud over me, and I was scared about quitting my job obviously, and, uh, and I remember my boss came into my cubicle right afterward, she's like, "I'm gonna talk to HR and see if they will allow you to come in." I'm like, "Why the hell would they do that?" I'm like, "I'm the best thing that's happened to HR in a while (laughs) you know?" This, this dummy quits three days before they offer you a ton of money to quit, so.

Joe Rogan 17:32 (laughs)

Mark Greaney 17:32 So for, for about six months, I just felt like I had this cloud over my head and I'd done the stupidest thing in the world. And then the, the film, film rights got optioned for Gray Man and it still wasn't quit-your-job money, but it was like I can eat (laughs) for a year money. And, you know, within a couple of years, I was working with Tom Clancy and things started to really go in the right direction.

Joe Rogan 17:50 Wow. That's an amazing story, man. I love it.

Mark Greaney 17:53 It could've gone either way. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:55 But isn't that, like, always how it works with some of the best stories?

Mark Greaney 17:58 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:58 That it could've gone either way?

Mark Greaney 17:59 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's, there's a sad version of that story, too, and I'm lucky-

Joe Rogan 18:03 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 18:03 ... that I, I didn't have to experience it.

Joe Rogan 18:04 That's my problem when people start talking about, like, manifesting your reality-

Mark Greaney 18:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:08 ... and The Secret and stuff like that.

Mark Greaney 18:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:10 Like, yeah...... you know, talk to people that win-

Mark Greaney 18:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:13 ... and they'll tell you that story, that I knew it was gonna happen-

Mark Greaney 18:16 Right.

Joe Rogan 18:16 ... and I made it happen. I had a vision board. Talk to people that tried and failed and are homeless-

Mark Greaney 18:21 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:21 ... and they have a different version of this-

Mark Greaney 18:23 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 18:23 ... manifesting reality story.

Mark Greaney 18:24 And I've fallen on my face in so many ways in my life that, like, I, I recognize how lucky this is. And I would not, you know, grab some kid and go, like, "Quit your job. Be a writer, man. It's gonna, you know..." Just 'cause it worked for me in that one instance doesn't mean it would, you know, work in any instance.

Joe Rogan 18:40 Yeah, I think the best inspiration you could give to someone is just your own success.

Mark Greaney 18:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:45 To, if, for you to tell people to do what you did, it's almost irresponsible.

Mark Greaney 18:50 Right.

Joe Rogan 18:50 (laughs)

Mark Greaney 18:51 Right, right, yeah. And, and I feel like everything I've learned, I've learned by doing it wrong a few times- Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 18:56 (laughs)

Mark Greaney 18:56 ... you know? And so, like, when I-

Joe Rogan 18:57 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 18:57 I'm not, I'm not like Yoda. I'm not this guy on a mountain, like, you know-

Joe Rogan 19:00 Right.

Mark Greaney 19:00 ... telling them. It's like, yeah, no, I've, I've done a lot wrong and what I might tell you could be totally wrong.

Joe Rogan 19:05 But learning how to do stuff, that's a part of the process.

Mark Greaney 19:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:07 You do stuff wrong.

Mark Greaney 19:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:08 I mean, there's-

Mark Greaney 19:09 Yeah, absolutely. You-

Joe Rogan 19:10 Can't be scared to do things wrong.

Mark Greaney 19:11 Right, you just self-correct, uh-

Joe Rogan 19:12 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 19:13 ... and keep self-correcting and-

Joe Rogan 19:15 Mm-hmm.

Mark Greaney 19:15 ... hopefully something good happens before you die. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:18 Yeah, it's a tricky process and it doesn't always work out. But the problem is, you're only hearing from the people where it does work out.

Mark Greaney 19:24 Sure, yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:25 You know, when-

Mark Greaney 19:26 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:26 ... and, and some people... Look, the... There's a hard reality about talent, too.

Mark Greaney 19:32 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:32 Like some people just don't have talent and some people just aren't good writers.

Mark Greaney 19:35 Yeah, there, there's a, a lot of people that go like, you know, "If it's your dream, never quit," blah, blah, blah. It's like, well-

Joe Rogan 19:40 Mm...

Mark Greaney 19:41 ... I'd love to be a Formula 1 driver. I would not ever be a Formula 1 driver, you know? (laughs) It's like, I, I think you sort of have to, like, play into your strengths and obviously work hard and get better, but it's, it's not a... It's not just, you know, follow your, your, you know, your wishes. It's a balance, like everything in life is a balance, yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:59 Yeah. It's not fair and it's, it's very tricky.

Mark Greaney 20:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:02 And the idea that all you have to do is just, like, want it bad enough.

Mark Greaney 20:05 No. Yeah, and I used to, um, sort of give advice to people based on my own problems, um, you know, like earlier in my career. So like a young person would be like, "What do I need to do?" And, and I was like, "I wish I believed in, in myself more," because I was very half-assed about everything because it's like I never thought anything would come from it, but I wanted to write a book, so I'd pick here, pick at it here and there. So I used to tell people, you know, "Believe in yourself, believe in yourself." And then you start learning a little more about these people and it's like, yeah, self-confidence is not this person's problem. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:37 (laughs)

Mark Greaney 20:37 It's, it's-

Joe Rogan 20:37 It's the lack of talent.

Mark Greaney 20:38 ... it's writing or it's editing-

Joe Rogan 20:40 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 20:40 ... or it's something like that, and it's like they are very, very confident. So, you know, there's not one, one-size-fits-all for, like, helping people.

Joe Rogan 20:47 Well, there's also confidence versus confidence that's based on an understanding of your competence.

Mark Greaney 20:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:54 And, and your work ethic and conf- confidence that's built up over time-

Mark Greaney 20:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:59 ... with effort versus delusional confidence.

Mark Greaney 21:02 Absolutely. And my work ethic came slowly, uh, but by necessity, and, um, and it's good now. And, you know, I am pro- a prolific writer.

Joe Rogan 21:10 Well, it has to be-

Mark Greaney 21:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:11 ... as much as you're writing-

Mark Greaney 21:12 Right, right.

Joe Rogan 21:12 ... these long-ass books.

Mark Greaney 21:13 Yeah, although I don't do much else. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:15 (laughs)

Mark Greaney 21:15 Although I have a family now, so, um, but yeah. It's, uh, there's, there's so much that I've learned along the way that's made me a little bit more disciplined because it's like, okay, if I don't average 1200 words a day or something, I'm gonna be really far behind by July and the book's due August 1st, so, you know, it's like I gotta go bust it out.

Joe Rogan 21:35 Yeah, d- the first time you, you gave someone one of your books to read, like, uh, were they, were they all, like, The Gray Man? Like, the early book?

Mark Greaney 21:44 Y- yeah, always the same genre, different variations-

Joe Rogan 21:47 Really?

Mark Greaney 21:47 ... of the same genre, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:49 So did, is this something that you've been interested in, in terms of, like, the way you read? Like...

Mark Greaney 21:54 Yeah, 100%. I mean, I was just a reader. Like, I, I don't have military experience. I'm not Jack Carr or Brad Taylor or any of these other guys. Um, you know, I, I bartended til I was, like, 31 and I, I had other job, you know, like I always had a couple jobs. Um, I got my degree in international relations and political science, but didn't do anything with it til, (laughs) for 20-something years, you know, other than 10-bar with it, I guess.

Joe Rogan 22:16 Wow.

Mark Greaney 22:17 Um, so I, I read... But I read every espionage novel, military stuff, um, uh, fiction. I actually tried to get into the Air Force at one point and didn't get in and, um, I was sort of fascinated by that world. And I'd read The Economist when I was 17 years old. I had a subscription to The Economist and W- US News & World Report and would-

Joe Rogan 22:38 Really?

Mark Greaney 22:38 ... would read all this... I was just interested in that, foreign policy and, and, and that sort of thing. Um, so I l- I loved it and I l- and I loved thinking up, you know, kind of like wild, crazy stories and big action set pieces and, um, geopolitical this and that. So I, uh, Clancy, the first book I ever bought in my life was, or thriller I've ever bought was Patriot Games, which was a Tom Clancy novel.

Joe Rogan 23:00 Oh.

Mark Greaney 23:01 I was, like, 19 years old and, uh, and then-

Joe Rogan 23:03 How wild is it for you to now to be writing that?

Mark Greaney 23:06 A quarter century later, he and I were... (laughs) You know, I'm, I'm in his house, you know, sitting there in his office talking to him, you know?

Joe Rogan 23:10 Isn't that crazy?

Mark Greaney 23:11 Yeah, yeah. It probably could've happened faster if I w-

Joe Rogan 23:13 (laughs)

Mark Greaney 23:13 ... if I worked a little bit. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:14 (laughs)

Mark Greaney 23:15 If I worked harder.

Joe Rogan 23:16 But maybe it wouldn't-

Mark Greaney 23:16 No.

Joe Rogan 23:16 ... 'cause I think some of the, what comes out in your writing is actual life experience-

Mark Greaney 23:20 A- 100%.

Joe Rogan 23:21 ... and you, you need some of that.

Mark Greaney 23:22 100%. That's what I keep telling myself-

Joe Rogan 23:24 (laughs)

Mark Greaney 23:25 (laughs) ... so I don't get depressed about not getting published at 25 or-

Joe Rogan 23:28 Well, how can you get depressed? You're very successful now.

Mark Greaney 23:30 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:30 You can't... You know, it's funny how people are, right, Joe?

Mark Greaney 23:33 Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:34 Always looking at, like, the things that are wrong with what you've done.

Mark Greaney 23:36 What could I've, what could've been, but-

Joe Rogan 23:38 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 23:38 ... no, it's worked out really well.

Joe Rogan 23:40 It's really interesting to me 'cause you seem to be, like, a, a very, like, mild-mannered sort of a guy and you write f- for such a psychopath.

Mark Greaney 23:49 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:49 Y- yeah, it's like, y- do you know about Robert E. Howard?

Mark Greaney 23:52 Mm-mm.

Joe Rogan 23:53 Robert E. Howard is the guy who wrote the Conan books.

Mark Greaney 23:55 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:56 And he was, um, like, y- you know, kind of like a real quiet guy who lived with his mom and committed suicide in his early 30s.

Mark Greaney 24:05 Oh. Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 24:05 But he wrote the most savage fantasy novels-

Mark Greaney 24:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:10 ... about Conan the Barbarian.

Mark Greaney 24:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:12 And he did-... you know, all of them while he was this sort of quiet, soft-spoken guy.

Mark Greaney 24:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:19 And-

Mark Greaney 24:19 Yeah. I mean there's, there's not necessarily a correlation, (laughs) you know, between one or the other. I, I know, you know, guys that were Delta Force and they're as mild-mannered, uh, as possible. I mean, they weren't then, I'm sure, (laughs) -

Joe Rogan 24:31 Right.

Mark Greaney 24:32 ... when they were down range. But, um, you, you just never know. And then as, as far as writers go, you know, there's, there's guys that write pretty, um, you know, accurate, you know, military or stuff like that. I, uh, what's different about my character, to some degree I think, is, like, he's a very empathetic guy. I don't want to make him, like, this square-jawed-

Joe Rogan 24:52 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 24:52 ... you know, like, total badass. He definitely has a screw loose. He, he doesn't... His moral compass, you know, doesn't point true north or whatever, but he wants to do the right thing at the end of the day and he's empathetic and, uh, he's vulnerable in some ways that, that some of the other characters aren't. And I think, I think that's helped the series over the years.

Joe Rogan 25:11 Mm. Yeah. No. I think so too. I mean, there's... He's got a compass.

Mark Greaney 25:15 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 25:15 And it's, it's kind of a fucked up compass-

Mark Greaney 25:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:18 ... but-

Mark Greaney 25:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:19 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 25:19 Yeah. In one of the books, uh, I think it was, uh, Gunmetal Gray, it was the sixth book, I, I remember near the end I was like, "I'm gonna have him do something that makes sense to him, but it's actually the readers... It's not what the readers are gonna want him to do." And, and I... That, that had never come up before and I was like, "Okay. This..." Like, if, if I'm reading this book I'm going like, "Don't, don't be an idiot. Don't, you know, don't do it that way. Don't do..." You know, it was basically the outcome of the story-

Joe Rogan 25:45 Mm-hmm.

Mark Greaney 25:45 ... what, what he was gonna do with this, this guy that he'd rescued. And I was like, "But it makes sense to him, so am I okay with having a bunch of readers mad at me?" And I'm like, "You kind of have to go with your gut." And I was, and I, I said, "All right. I'm gonna have him do what, what makes sense in the story for the, this character, the way that I've built him up over six books."

Joe Rogan 26:04 Mm-hmm.

Mark Greaney 26:04 And, um, and I never really got much negative pushback from that at all, so I guess, I guess that was the right decision.

Joe Rogan 26:09 No. I liked that one.

Mark Greaney 26:10 Yeah. Thanks.

Joe Rogan 26:11 It's just... It's always interesting when you're... Reading is so fascinating to me, reading fiction, because someone is creating this world and you're trusting them with all these people in this world to, for it to not mess with your, your sen-... It doesn't... Y- you know, there's a suspension of disbelief that's involved in any, you know, reading literature or watching a movie or anything like that.

Mark Greaney 26:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:39 And you just don't want to mess with it-

Mark Greaney 26:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:42 ... to the point where someone's reading it going, "Aw, come on."

Mark Greaney 26:45 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:45 That's what you... You don't want an aw, come on moment.

Mark Greaney 26:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:48 And you do a great job of avoiding aw, come on moments while you're navigating this impossible world of this elite assassin who somehow or another never gets killed.

Mark Greaney 26:57 Yeah. Um... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:58 (laughs)

Mark Greaney 26:59 Thanks for saying that, and I really know where that came from. It came from a very specific place. So, I had an agent interested in me, um, when... He turned me down on a couple books, but he- he kept saying, "You know, you're good. Write me something else." And, um, I wrote the, the opening for The Gray Man and, um, there's a... It's a sniper thing and, uh, an American helicopter gets shot down and this guy that has nothing to do with the operation, with the American soldiers, is just trying to get out of the kill zone where he's killed somebody and he takes this sniper shot and kills some of the people that killed the Americans. And so I g- I gave that agent the first 50 pages of the book. I'm still an unpublished author. I'm like, "Will you tell me what you think?" He's like, "Uh, yeah. It's great. The shooting those guys from a mile away, that's really badass, but he needs to save somebody." And I'm like, "Wait. How's he gonna save somebody? He's a mile away and it's, like, Al-Qaeda." You know, this is 2007. And, um, and he's like, "I don't know. I'm not the writer, but he needs to save somebody." So, I went back into the story and I was like, "Well, sh- shit. That doesn't really... You know, that- that's so implausible." But then I'm like, "All right. I guess it's my job to sell that." And the whole series was informed by that early thing, because what I do is I create pretty outlandish things and then work my ass off to, to sell them to the reader, you know?

Joe Rogan 28:15 Mm.

Mark Greaney 28:15 Put in, put in the real world stuff, the geopolitical stuff, put in all these, um, you know... Explain the hows and the whys to the best that you can and then, at some point, you know, the bad guys have to miss (laughs) their shots a lot more than the good guys miss their shots.

Joe Rogan 28:31 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 28:32 Yeah. So, you know, it- it's... It is... It's fanciful. Some people call it gun porn, but at the same time-

Joe Rogan 28:39 Gun porn? (laughs)

Mark Greaney 28:39 (laughs) Yeah. That's a thing.

Joe Rogan 28:40 Is that what they call it?

Mark Greaney 28:40 That's what they call it. Um, but, but at the same time, you know, there's, there's like a heart to the story and all that that I'm trying to, like, pull the, pull the reader into where they don't go, "This is just way too outta, outta, outta left field."

Joe Rogan 28:53 (smacks lips) How... What is your writing process like? Do you like, do you, do you have ideas before you sit down and write them? Do you have, like, little notes of maybe that would be fun or maybe he could do this and then sit down and try to piece them all together? Like, how do you do it?

Mark Greaney 29:06 Yeah. I write sort of by the seat of my pants, but I do come up with some little, even if it's three pages of what the story is about, you know, this book is about artificial intelligence and robotics and the bad guy, you know, wants to destroy America or whatever, and then you flesh that out a little more and a little more. And then at some point, and this is what I always recommend to writers is just sit down and start writing and you'll figure what your story's about. I- if you, if you don't have any blueprint, (laughs) then I think you're gonna get yourself in trouble. But, I mean, everybody's different. I, I know some authors that they have every chapter completely plotted out-

Joe Rogan 29:44 Oh, yeah.

Mark Greaney 29:44 ... and everything, and then they just go and write a chapter a day because they've spent months plotting it out.

Joe Rogan 29:48 Hm.

Mark Greaney 29:49 And I, I kind of have to find the story in the stories I'm writing and, you know, the dialogue, two characters talking to each other and I'm like, "Well, there's no tension here. I have to create some tension." And you come up for some reason there's tension between these two people and then that informs another part of the story and then sooner or later you've got a book. Every, every book... I'm not a super confident writer, so every book it's, you know, spring/early summer is the biggest piece of crap in the world and then sometimes- somehow by August I get it turned in and edited by October and I'm happy with it and proud of it, but-

Joe Rogan 30:20 My friend, Ari, has a little piece of paper on his laptop-It's a quote by Ernest Hemingway, it says, "Every first draft is shit."

Mark Greaney 30:28 (laughs) Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I- I- I have said... That's good. I've said it... If I died when one of my books is, like, 98% done, it- it's unusable. Like them-

Joe Rogan 30:38 (laughs)

Mark Greaney 30:38 They wouldn't be able to fix it. I don't know if that's true or not but, like, you know, as a writer, you know where all the bodies are buried in a 160,000 word book.

Joe Rogan 30:44 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 30:44 And it's like, "Oh, that doesn't make sense, and this connection here isn't there," and so, like, it kind of, like, weighs on you until you get everything cleaned up to the best, best you can.

Joe Rogan 30:53 Yeah, Stephen King said that he doesn't really have an outline.

Mark Greaney 30:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:56 He just-

Mark Greaney 30:56 I believe it.

Joe Rogan 30:57 ... he sits down and starts writing.

Mark Greaney 30:58 Yeah. He- he's amazing. He is, uh, just another species. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:03 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 31:03 I'm- I'm so impressed with that guy.

Joe Rogan 31:04 Well, certainly in the early days of his career, right?

Mark Greaney 31:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:07 The early days of his career, it's- to me, it's the most interesting. And this is not to disparage people that are clean and sober. It's not to disparage-

Mark Greaney 31:15 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:15 ... the idea of getting clean and sober. You definitely should do that. Your health is more important than anything.

Mark Greaney 31:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:20 But-

Mark Greaney 31:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:21 ... when that guy was fucked up, he was writing some amazing shit.

Mark Greaney 31:24 Yeah, yeah. And he- he- he didn't create a genre, but he created a genre, basically.

Joe Rogan 31:29 He kind of did.

Mark Greaney 31:29 Yeah, you know? It's like, um-

Joe Rogan 31:30 He kind of did.

Mark Greaney 31:31 And he did... The output was so much. But even in-

Joe Rogan 31:34 Oh, my God.

Mark Greaney 31:34 ... his later years, I don't know if you've ever read 11/22/63?

Joe Rogan 31:37 No.

Mark Greaney 31:37 Oh, my God. It's- it's a magnificent book. It's-

Joe Rogan 31:39 Really?

Mark Greaney 31:40 Yeah. It's about a- a high school teacher who goes back in time to stop the Kennedy assassination.

Joe Rogan 31:46 Wow.

Mark Greaney 31:46 But, you know, chaos ensues. (laughs) It's a Stephen King novel-

Joe Rogan 31:51 Wow.

Mark Greaney 31:51 ... so you can imagine. And it's probably 700 or 800 pages and, uh-

Joe Rogan 31:54 Really?

Mark Greaney 31:54 It's- it's really fascinating.

Joe Rogan 31:55 And it's a recent book?

Mark Greaney 31:57 Uh, yeah. It's been, like, eight or nine years. They actually made a TV series, I think on Hulu, with James Franco, um, which was actually-

Joe Rogan 32:03 Really?

Mark Greaney 32:03 Which was actually really good. Um, but yeah, that- that book is- is fabulous. The series is good too.

Joe Rogan 32:08 No, I mean, some of his early stuff, like The Shining or Cujo or Pet Sematary or, uh-

Mark Greaney 32:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:15 ... The Tommyknockers.

Mark Greaney 32:16 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:17 Like, my God.

Mark Greaney 32:18 Yeah. I remember sitting, uh, getting late to the theater for Pet Sematary and sitting in the front row and just regretting that decision. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 32:26 (laughs)

Mark Greaney 32:26 It was, like, so intense. Um, but yeah, Cujo and Carrie and, uh-

Joe Rogan 32:30 He said he doesn't even remember writing Cujo because he was so fucked up.

Mark Greaney 32:34 Because he was coke-... Was it cocaine?

Joe Rogan 32:34 Cocaine and booze.

Mark Greaney 32:36 Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:36 Just getting lit and-

Mark Greaney 32:37 And his- his book on writing is- is really inspirational because-

Joe Rogan 32:41 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 32:41 ... because he- he didn't have instant success. Even though he got published when he was really young, he was trying really hard for a long time, and then-

Joe Rogan 32:47 Yes.

Mark Greaney 32:47 ... you know, he had to feed a family and all of that stuff too, so...

Joe Rogan 32:50 Yeah. The- the story about when he got the first check, like, how crazy that was.

Mark Greaney 32:54 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:54 And he realized, "Oh, my God."

Mark Greaney 32:56 Yeah. I have, uh, incredible respect for him 'cause, you know, a lot of authors, um, have co-authors, whatever, as- as they get older and, um, you know, it's just harder to come up with new stuff.

Joe Rogan 33:06 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 33:06 Something- something you haven't done before.

Joe Rogan 33:08 Well, as you get older too, you lose your juice.

Mark Greaney 33:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:10 You know?

Mark Greaney 33:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:11 You lose your physical juice. You lose your vitality. You lose your energy.

Mark Greaney 33:15 Sadly.

Joe Rogan 33:15 Your- your... Yeah, sadly.

Mark Greaney 33:18 Yeah. My, um... My- my concentration levels at this point in my life is not what it was 15 years ago when the only thing com- competing with me writing my book was my Xbox, you know? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:27 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 33:27 When I was off work or whatever.

Joe Rogan 33:28 Right, right, right.

Mark Greaney 33:29 And, uh, you know, now, it's kids and dogs and, uh, you know, travel and o- you know, other obligations. And so when I do have, like, a three-hour pocket of time to write, it's real easy to kind of lose focus. And I'm like, "Wow, I remember going to Starbucks at 8:30 in the morning on a Saturday and staying till 9:00 at night," you know?

Joe Rogan 33:46 Mm.

Mark Greaney 33:47 And it's like, I can't do that anymore. I wish I could. If I did that for a couple of weeks, I'd have a book now.

Joe Rogan 33:50 Yeah. Did you just... You don't really have that... My friend, Steve Rinella talks about this as well. Like, he was at the- the peak of his writing when he was a single man.

Mark Greaney 33:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:57 Before he had a family.

Mark Greaney 33:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:59 And, you know, when he was alone, he could do whatever he wanted to. He could just, like, literally just sit in front of a computer for 16 hours in a day.

Mark Greaney 34:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:06 And just drink coffee and just get it done.

Mark Greaney 34:08 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that was me. You know, and I lived alone. I didn't get... I- I- I've been married. I'm on my second marriage, but I didn't get married the first time till I was 47, so... (laughs) Um, you know, I was in my... I was published and had- had several books out before I got married and-

Joe Rogan 34:23 So the first marriage, you were 47?

Mark Greaney 34:25 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:25 You look like you're 45 now.

Mark Greaney 34:27 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 34:27 Like, how long ago was this?

Mark Greaney 34:28 Uh...

Joe Rogan 34:29 How old are you?

Mark Greaney 34:30 I- I'll- I'll be 56 in July.

Joe Rogan 34:32 Really?

Mark Greaney 34:32 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:32 You look fucking great, man.

Mark Greaney 34:33 Oh, thanks, man. I appreciate that.

Joe Rogan 34:34 How do you look so young?

Mark Greaney 34:36 Uh...

Joe Rogan 34:36 What do you do?

Mark Greaney 34:37 I don't... It's probably 'cause I didn't have kids in my life till about two years ago. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 34:40 (laughs)

Mark Greaney 34:40 I have three wonderful stepkids, though. Um, what am I doing? I- I don't know. I- I mean, I think a lot of it's genetic. I mean, I exercise and, um, you know, I don't... I- I don't really... I don't do dairy or gluten, but that- that's pretty recent, so...

Joe Rogan 34:55 Well, whatever it is, you're onto a good thing.

Mark Greaney 34:58 (laughs) Thanks, man.

Joe Rogan 34:58 Or you got great genes. So what is your process like? Do you have a daily routine where you start every day? Like, how do you-

Mark Greaney 35:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:05 How do you... Do you- do you go for walks before you write? Like, I know a lot of people do things like that.

Mark Greaney 35:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:10 Kind of charge the brain up.

Mark Greaney 35:11 Yeah. I- I like to start writing as soon as I possibly can when I wake up, which used to be 5:00 in the morning. Um, I wrote my first book, you know, when I- when I had a full-time job, and I wrote it between, like, 5:30 and 7:30 at Starbucks over a six-month period. Um, now, you- you know, there might be carpool or- or something else where I don't get started, but I- I have a detached... We have, like, a- a pool house that's my office-

Joe Rogan 35:35 Hm.

Mark Greaney 35:36 ... at- at my house, and so it's 30 steps out my back door and it's a completely different experience. It's- it's like being in... You know, it's like being somewhere else and n- nobody bugs me or whatever. And so I like to get in there as- as quickly as possible, look at as few me- emails as possible. I mean, you kind of look and see if things are cha-... You know, if there's chaos that you need to attend to, but if there's not... And I like to start writing, and I will write in the mornings. I... It's only when I'm, like, way on deadline and I'm gonna be overdue where I will write in- in the afternoons too. So I- I try to write 7:00 or 8:00 till noon or something like that, and then that's done... I'm done with my writing for the day. I'll do other stuff. I'll take the dogs to the park. And I think about the books when I'm doing that, and I'm always jotting stuff down in- in files, um, for the book. So...... you know, there's a lot of ... You ask anybody in my family, there's times where I'm just sort of not 100% there-

Joe Rogan 36:29 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 36:29 ... at the, at the dinner table for a minute because I'm thinking about, "Well, wait, what if, what if that all happened in Singapore?" You know? Um, so my brain resides there even when I'm not working. But I, I try and, like right now, my writing goal is 1,500 words a day. Um, didn't hit it today yet. Um, but that's gonna get me a book by the summer and I have two books to write this year, so ... And the next book should be done by December. And, uh, that's ... Hopefully that works. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 36:59 And so, uh, y- a lot of guys do that same thing that you're talking about, like the, there's a process after you're done writing where you're thinking about the writing of the day-

Mark Greaney 37:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:07 ... and then you just sorta jot stuff down.

Mark Greaney 37:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:10 And a lot of guys like to, like I said, go for walks or-

Mark Greaney 37:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:13 You, you like to take the dogs to the park.

Mark Greaney 37:15 Yeah. We have a big 100 acre off-leash dog park at, where I live, a few minutes from my house, and, um, th- those 40 minutes or so where I'm, got the dogs out there, um, if, if I'm by myself, I will, uh, usually be, like, really focused on, on the book. Or, or doing some sort of, like, audiobook research for the book or something like that.

Joe Rogan 37:35 Mm.

Mark Greaney 37:36 Yeah. And then you're always thinking of the next book you have to write. So I have another book to write this year and so I'm trying to p- plot that out just in my head for now, not write anything down, um, in the downtime when I'm not thinking about the book that I'm writing now.

Joe Rogan 37:49 Do you drink coffee?

Mark Greaney 37:50 I drink a lot of coffee. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:51 A lot of coffee?

Mark Greaney 37:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:52 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 37:52 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:52 That helps.

Mark Greaney 37:53 Yeah, it does help out.

Joe Rogan 37:53 I, I had a buddy of mine who started snorting Adderall to write-

Mark Greaney 37:56 Oh, God.

Joe Rogan 37:56 ... and then his wife was like, "What the fuck are you doing?"

Mark Greaney 37:59 Does it work?

Joe Rogan 37:59 He's like, "I gotta get this done."

Mark Greaney 38:00 Look at me, I'm like, "Does it work?" (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:01 Yeah. Apparently, it does.

Mark Greaney 38:02 Yes.

Joe Rogan 38:03 I don't know, but his wife had a real problem with it. (laughs)

Mark Greaney 38:05 Yeah, I, I guess. I-

Joe Rogan 38:06 It was the snorting, I think. He just-

Mark Greaney 38:08 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:08 ... took the Adderall-

Mark Greaney 38:10 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 38:10 ... but he's like, "I want it to work quick."

Mark Greaney 38:11 Yeah. It's, I've, I, I've tried Adderall because some people told me it was, you know, and I got a prescription for it. And, um, I, it just made me feel kind of wacky and, uh, and I remember one, one time I took Adderall, I'm like, yeah, I was really focused. I took all of my fire logs off the fire log holder and swept that thing up-

Joe Rogan 38:31 (laughs)

Mark Greaney 38:31 ... and put all the fire logs back. It's like meanwhile, I've got to write a book.

Joe Rogan 38:33 (laughs) Yeah, people say it makes you clean.

Mark Greaney 38:36 Yeah. It made me c-

Joe Rogan 38:37 It makes you want to clean things.

Mark Greaney 38:37 That's what it made me do.

Joe Rogan 38:38 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 38:38 And so it was not ... I- I'm always looking for something, you know, like, uh, B vitamins, I've tried that, and you know, I'm always trying to, something that'll kind of keep me in the, in the game a little bit more.

Joe Rogan 38:48 You ever try marijuana?

Mark Greaney 38:50 No, uh, no. Uh-uh.

Joe Rogan 38:52 No?

Mark Greaney 38:52 Uh-uh.

Joe Rogan 38:52 It might help your creativity.

Mark Greaney 38:53 Really?

Joe Rogan 38:54 Yeah. Oh, it puts you in wild states of mind.

Mark Greaney 38:56 Yeah, but for this kind of book, like the only time I've ever really had it, this is kind of embarrassing, I don't know why I'm saying this in front of so many people, was, uh, when, uh, it was like put in like lime squares and I didn't ... Nobody told me and I-

Joe Rogan 39:07 Oh, no.

Mark Greaney 39:08 ... I ate like half a tray of lime squares, so I had the paranoia thing, like an absolute freakout paranoia.

Joe Rogan 39:12 You don't want that.

Mark Greaney 39:13 (laughs) I didn't want that.

Joe Rogan 39:14 First of all, that's a different drug. When you're eating it, it's very different than when you're smoking it.

Mark Greaney 39:19 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 39:19 When you're eating it, your body produces something called 11-hydroxy metabolite. It's like a, five times more psychoactive than THC.

Mark Greaney 39:26 Oh.

Joe Rogan 39:27 So it's processed by your liver. It's called the one-pass.

Mark Greaney 39:29 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 39:29 And when, when that happens, you trip balls.

Mark Greaney 39:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:32 Like that's why when people eat edibles, they're like, "Uh, it doesn't ... I think some ... It's laced."

Mark Greaney 39:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:37 That's why they think that.

Mark Greaney 39:38 I see.

Joe Rogan 39:38 It's 'cause it's a completely different drug than smoking it.

Mark Greaney 39:40 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:41 When you're smoking it, you're getting THC.

Mark Greaney 39:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:43 But when you're eating it, like the 11-hydroxy metabolite, it's not ... You don't get it from smoking it.

Mark Greaney 39:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:51 So it's a totally different experience.

Mark Greaney 39:52 That's wild. Yeah, that, that, that was my only experience and I was down in-

Joe Rogan 39:54 That's not a good experience.

Mark Greaney 39:55 It wasn't a good one. I was down in Florida at the time and I'd gotten jellyfished that day, like in the leg, and went back to the, the r- room and ate all these lime squares that somebody else has made and, uh, and then I was like, "Oh my God, uh, I'm gonna die from a jellyfish sting."

Joe Rogan 40:09 (laughs)

Mark Greaney 40:09 'Cause I felt like I was dying, for like, all night. I mean, it lasted like hours and hours and hours, it was-

Joe Rogan 40:15 Can jellyfish kill you in America? Do we have jellyfish that can kill you?

Mark Greaney 40:18 I don't think so. I bet ... I wasn't, I wasn't working on good information (laughs) at that time.

Joe Rogan 40:22 I know when I was in Australia, they'll warn you. They're like, "That box jellyfish will fucking kill you."

Mark Greaney 40:27 I bet there are. There's those blue bottles in Hawaii where they're ... They won't kill you, but it's so painful. They-

Joe Rogan 40:32 Oh, yeah?

Mark Greaney 40:32 They have this string that's like five or six feet long.

Joe Rogan 40:35 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 40:35 And I was in Hawaii and I had one like wrapped around my leg and my arm and, oh-

Joe Rogan 40:38 Mm.

Mark Greaney 40:38 ... it hurt so bad.

Joe Rogan 40:39 Yeah, my daughter when she was really young got stung in Costa Rica.

Mark Greaney 40:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:43 We were swimming in Costa Rica and she got ...

Narrator 40:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:46 What do we got here?

Narrator 40:46 Dancers?

Joe Rogan 40:46 "Box jellyfish can kill a person within minutes." Yes.

Mark Greaney 40:49 Ooh.

Joe Rogan 40:49 But I don't think they're in the United States, are they?

Narrator 40:51 I typed in, it says Florida, some jellyfish from Florida can fuck you up.

Mark Greaney 40:54 Oh, shit.

Joe Rogan 40:55 No shit.

Narrator 40:55 Wow.

Joe Rogan 40:55 "Florida has several species, including those pictures that sting." Yeah, but, um, breathing difficulty, shock, and even death. Oh, jellyfish in Florida can kill you? Bro.

Mark Greaney 41:05 I need to use that in a book. I need to use that.

Joe Rogan 41:06 So maybe you were almost dying.

Mark Greaney 41:08 Yeah, maybe it wasn't, (laughs) maybe it wasn't the lime squares. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 41:10 Maybe it was ... Really, like it was probably the lime squares and the poison that was in your system.

Mark Greaney 41:14 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 41:15 Yeah. I didn't know that Florida jellyfish can kill you. How many people die?

Narrator 41:18 Probably wherever they pick it up, I guess that's-

Joe Rogan 41:19 Let's Google how many people die a year from jellyfish in Florida. It's probably only Florida, right? Like you got to go super tropical.

Mark Greaney 41:26 You're gonna, you're gonna ruin my family vacation in June. (laughs)

Narrator 41:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 41:31 I'm gonna guess three.

Mark Greaney 41:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:33 Three people a year.

Narrator 41:34 Uh, I got to get Florida, it's not showing Florida.

Joe Rogan 41:38 Three people die from jellyfishing in the United States.

Narrator 41:40 I think it's 100 overall.

Joe Rogan 41:42 In the country?

Narrator 41:43 I don't even know if it's the country.

Joe Rogan 41:45 100 people overall die from jellyfish? Yeah, I don't think it's that common with jellyfish to kill people.

Mark Greaney 41:50 That's more than sharks, you know? It's, uh-

Joe Rogan 41:52 Right.

Mark Greaney 41:52 My wife is totally ... I, I scuba dive and I got two of my kids certified and, uh, and my wife is deathly afraid of sharks and I'm like, "I swim with sharks all the time." I mean, I'm s- ... There's certain sharks that if it appeared next to me, I'd-... crap my pants, but-

Joe Rogan 42:06 My buddy, uh, Duncan was in, uh, Hawaii and the week he was there, uh, a woman got killed by a shark.

Mark Greaney 42:12 Yeah. This year, yeah, right?

Joe Rogan 42:14 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 42:14 Like last 20-

Joe Rogan 42:15 Yeah, the guy and his wife were scuba diving and, uh, apparently, the guy pops up for air, they were snorkeling.

Mark Greaney 42:20 Hm.

Joe Rogan 42:21 Guy pops up for air and they're yelling, "Get out of the water! Get out of the water!" So he runs to get out of the water and then realizes it was his wife.

Mark Greaney 42:27 Oh my God.

Joe Rogan 42:27 Yeah, and looks back and they, apparently, they saw just blood in the water and thrashing.

Mark Greaney 42:32 Ugh.

Joe Rogan 42:32 And they never found her body, dead body.

Mark Greaney 42:35 Good, good God. Yeah, they found part of her bathing suit or something, I think. It, it's horrible, but it, it's so rare, you know? It's-

Joe Rogan 42:41 Fuck rare.

Mark Greaney 42:42 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:42 If, if you found out that there were werewolves-

Mark Greaney 42:45 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:45 ... that werewolves were real, would you ever go in the woods at night?

Mark Greaney 42:48 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:48 Even when it wasn't a full moon? You'd be like, "Fuck that."

Mark Greaney 42:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:51 But meanwhile, sharks are real and everybody's like-

Mark Greaney 42:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:53 ... "Well, it's so rare."

Mark Greaney 42:55 Yeah. Well, I mean, a dog can kill you, but I'm not afraid of a dog. I, I don't know. It's-

Joe Rogan 42:59 That's true.

Mark Greaney 42:59 I ha- I haven't seen the, the r- the right shark, maybe (laughs) . You know, I've been around a bunch of... I've, you know, like, reef sharks and mostly stuff like that, and-

Joe Rogan 43:08 I feel like you can give a dog your arm and then cut its neck.

Mark Greaney 43:12 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:12 You could kill a dog.

Mark Greaney 43:13 Yeah, yeah (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 43:14 You know, you'd, you'll get fucked up, but you can kill a dog.

Mark Greaney 43:17 Yeah, a shark, you're on their territory, so-

Joe Rogan 43:18 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 43:19 ... you, you are limited in-

Joe Rogan 43:20 If a dog's got a collar, I'm gonna strangle them.

Mark Greaney 43:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:23 But if it's a shark, you can't even move good.

Mark Greaney 43:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:27 Like, you're like (imitates struggling) .

Mark Greaney 43:28 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:28 ... moving good.

Mark Greaney 43:29 The first time I went d- diving on an actual shark feed and I was... I, I'd only had 15 dives or whatever. Everybody else was a lot more experienced than me, that I was just on a dive boat with. And right before that, they were like, "Okay, you know, the sharks are fine. Just don't provoke them." I'm like, "Cool," and I jump in the water and you're down underwater where you can't talk to anybody and ask any questions and I was like, "I should've asked if eye contact was a prov- provocation." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 43:51 (laughs)

Mark Greaney 43:51 You know, it's like, I would... God, I wish I could get back up there and ask that question, but I was not making eye contact.

Joe Rogan 43:55 I think sharks are so simple minded. I don't even think they understand what eye contact is.

Mark Greaney 43:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:59 I think they're just like (imitates gnashing and chomping) .

Mark Greaney 44:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:01 They're zombies, man. They're-

Mark Greaney 44:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:03 They're, they scare the shit out of me.

Mark Greaney 44:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:05 'Cause they're just feeding machines. That's all they're doing, is just they're the clean-up crew of the ocean.

Mark Greaney 44:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:09 Anything weak, anything that's fucked up, anything that's slipping-

Mark Greaney 44:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:13 ... time to go. Anything that dies.

Mark Greaney 44:15 You're down there at one of those shark feeds where they have all this chum in a big ball and, like, hundreds of sharks and, and-

Joe Rogan 44:20 Ugh.

Mark Greaney 44:21 And there's times where, like, they're above you and there's the boat and then there's, like, 50 sharks and you're kind of down at the ocean floor going like, "I'll wait for them to, you know, move on, far-"

Joe Rogan 44:30 We played a video the other day, Jamie pulled up, of this guy that's in one of those shark cages.

Mark Greaney 44:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:36 And this great white just bursts through the bottom of it.

Mark Greaney 44:39 Bangs through it.

Joe Rogan 44:39 Lit- literally almost takes his leg off.

Mark Greaney 44:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:42 Like, ugh.

Mark Greaney 44:42 I have no plans to dive in, uh, South Africa or wherever those, those things-

Joe Rogan 44:46 Those people are crazy.

Mark Greaney 44:47 Those are some big, big sharks.

Joe Rogan 44:48 Like, I know you like thrills, but please, just-

Mark Greaney 44:52 One of the cool things about sharks, though, is you get your picture in the water with the shark and you can't tell if the shark, if, if it's behind you. You can't tell if it's three feet long (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 44:58 Right.

Mark Greaney 44:58 It just, it still looks like, you know-

Joe Rogan 45:00 It's still a shark.

Mark Greaney 45:01 A big, massive thing. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:02 Yeah, could be a three-foot-long shark and it's like, "Jesus."

Mark Greaney 45:04 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:04 Mark's so brave.

Mark Greaney 45:06 (laughs) Exactly.

Joe Rogan 45:06 Yeah, it's, um... So do you do anything else that's, like, kind of psycho like that?

Mark Greaney 45:13 No, I, you know, I've trained with firearms a lot, um-

Joe Rogan 45:18 Have you always done that?

Mark Greaney 45:19 No. That was really to get i- involved with, uh, the writing.

Joe Rogan 45:24 The books?

Mark Greaney 45:24 Yeah, to learn about the writing and I started, um, training probably 2005, 4 or 5, something like that, and-

Joe Rogan 45:30 Where do you train? Do you train at, like, a tactical place?

Mark Greaney 45:32 Yeah. It, it's been at different places, but the, I've done most of my training at a place in Middle Tennessee called Tactical Response and, you know, back at that point, they were training a lot of civilian contractors and so I took a... You know, you take pistol, an advanced pistol, and a rifle, an advanced rifle, and, um, this and that and then there's these things called, like, you know, HRCC, High-Risk Civilian Contractor classes. And I took a bunch of those and they're, they're like a week long and you stay in the bunk house or the team rooms with the guys. And I, and I learned really quick that, like, it's cool to learn about the guns and the gear and stuff for your books, but it's so much more impactful to sit there in the team room and drink Scotch with, you know, SWAT guys or fifth, special forces group dude, or, or whatever. You know? It's just like these been there, done that guys, contractors, Blackwater guys, um, back then. And, uh, and so, you know, I don't... I feel like I kind of became a mascot at that school.

Joe Rogan 46:26 Mm.

Mark Greaney 46:26 I probably took fif- 50 classes (laughs) . I probably spent close to, you know, a couple hundred days there in Tennessee. And I've, I've done some other training. Um, I own a bunch of the firearms that are in the, in the books and, uh, and like to train when I can. Um, it's less and less as you get older and, and, uh, busier and more family and all that kind of stuff.

Joe Rogan 46:48 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 46:48 But, but I, I really do want to get back into it even more.

Joe Rogan 46:51 So when you were talking to these, uh, special forces guys, did you let them know that you're writing, that you write The Gray Man?

Mark Greaney 47:00 Yeah, yeah. And, um, y- early on. I mean, I, I actually heard the term "The Gray Man" at one of these classes from, from a guy, I think he was a contractor, which is just... They would say, you know, "Be The Gray Man," which is, like, not wear the tactical gear and the 511 pants and the-

Joe Rogan 47:16 Mm-hmm.

Mark Greaney 47:16 ... Wirelex glasses and the-

Joe Rogan 47:18 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 47:18 ... the Luminox watches or, or whatever.

Joe Rogan 47:20 Ah.

Mark Greaney 47:20 Because they're traveling into the Middle East and, you know, the airport in Dubai or something like that, they, Al-Qaeda would have, like, watchers there, you know, seeing who was coming in and, and things like that, so...

Joe Rogan 47:32 And if you're there with Salomon boots on, looking tactical.

Mark Greaney 47:34 Yeah, exactly. You got your Salomons on-

Joe Rogan 47:36 Black Rifle Coffee T-shirt.

Mark Greaney 47:37 (laughs) Yeah, exactly. You're kind of self-identifying.

Joe Rogan 47:40 Yeah, yeah.

Mark Greaney 47:40 Yeah, and-

Joe Rogan 47:40 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 47:41 ... um, so it's all about, like, not doing that.

Joe Rogan 47:44 Mm-hmm.

Mark Greaney 47:44 And, and that's kind of... And my character has expanded to where he basically, you know... Is invisible man.

Joe Rogan 47:50 Yeah. Yeah, um, balancing the, the incredulity, like, balancing-

Mark Greaney 47:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:59 ... the, the plausible-... aspects of the story. Is that difficult to, like, 'cause you've got a guy who's, like, constantly involved in gunfights and knife-

Mark Greaney 48:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:08 ... fights, and people are throwing knives at him. He's jumping out of fucking buildings-

Mark Greaney 48:12 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:12 ... and it's like there's so much chaos.

Mark Greaney 48:14 Yeah. Yeah, uh, always, there, there always has to be a kernel of some reality in it, you know? And, and, um, in Sierra Six, the book that you're writing now, there's a big scene that, uh, takes place on scaffolding.

Joe Rogan 48:26 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mark Greaney 48:27 And, and took several, and, and-

Joe Rogan 48:28 I got through that already. (laughs)

Mark Greaney 48:28 Yeah, and, and so I was in, you know, Hong Kong. I wasn't in India where it took place, 'cause this was pre-COVID. I was in Hong Kong researching a, a Clancy novel. And, um, and I saw the scaffolding, and I went up to it, and I climbed up on part of it. And I looked around, you know, and, and I was like, "Okay, if you cut this, then this oughta do this." Now, you know, I wouldn't do it, you know-

Joe Rogan 48:46 Right.

Mark Greaney 48:46 ... because it's six stories. But in, in the first Gray Man book, um, he has to have basically surgery, or he has to get sutured up while he's driving, um, get his guts sutured up. And, um, and I talked to, uh, you know, a special forces medic and talked about h- doing that and plausibility of that and going into shock and all these other things. And a lot of people kind of complained about it and said, "That's so impossible. That's so impossible." And I'm like, "Yeah, but if you read the book again, he passes out while it happens and crashes the car." (laughs) It's like-

Joe Rogan 49:16 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 49:16 ... it was not perfectly successful, you know? It's just like he didn't come out. It wasn't like he's just like, "Yeah, sew me up while I drive."

Joe Rogan 49:22 People can do wild shit under pressure, though, though.

Mark Greaney 49:24 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:25 Like, to say that that's not possible, I, I read about a guy, I believe it was in Antarctica, who was a doctor who had to take his own appendix out.

Mark Greaney 49:33 Unbelievable.

Joe Rogan 49:33 And I think he might have done it with no anesthesia.

Mark Greaney 49:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:36 I don't ... Find out that 'cause there's video of it.

Mark Greaney 49:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 49:40 Or photos of it.

Mark Greaney 49:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:41 Of this doctor, like literally on the operating table, cutting himself, the man who cut out his own appendix.

Mark Greaney 49:49 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:50 So ...

Mark Greaney 49:51 Unbelievable.

Joe Rogan 49:51 Yeah. So there's photos of this gentleman on the operating table doing his own appen- there, right there. Like look at that.

Mark Greaney 49:58 Unbelievable, man.

Joe Rogan 49:59 How ... I like how he gave himself a mask. (laughs)

Mark Greaney 50:03 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:03 Like, "Hey bro, it's you." (laughs)

Mark Greaney 50:05 (laughs) Good point.

Joe Rogan 50:06 He tended to use a mirror-

Mark Greaney 50:07 All right.

Joe Rogan 50:07 ... to help him operate, but he found that its inverted view too much of a hindrance, so he ended up working by touch without gloves. How crazy is that?

Mark Greaney 50:15 I, I would feel like I'd talk somebody else through it before I do it myself, but I don't, I don't know.

Joe Rogan 50:18 I mean, I, I guess he didn't trust anybody else.

Mark Greaney 50:21 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:21 Um, I wonder what ... Finally, here it is, the cursed appendage. Wow. With horror, I noticed a dark strain at, dark stain at its base. That means just a day longer and it would have burst. My heart seized up and noticeably slowed. My hands felt like rubber. Well, I thought, it's going to end badly. And all that was left was removing the appendix. Wow.

Mark Greaney 50:46 That's crazy.

Joe Rogan 50:46 For a two-hour operation.

Mark Greaney 50:49 Tom s-

Joe Rogan 50:50 Down to the final stitch.

Mark Greaney 50:51 Tom Clancy had a saying that, that the difference between fiction and non-fiction is fiction has to make sense.

Joe Rogan 50:57 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 50:57 And, and, like, if I'd written that in a book, people would just laugh, laugh me off.

Joe Rogan 51:01 Right.

Mark Greaney 51:01 And there, you know, there was a Navy Seal that was shot 18 times and, uh, survived. And, you know, if I, if I had my hero shot 18 times (laughs) and survived-

Joe Rogan 51:10 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 51:10 ... no one would ever read me, reading it.

Joe Rogan 51:11 Wasn't Tupac shot, like, nine times?

Mark Greaney 51:13 Yes.

Joe Rogan 51:14 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 51:14 Yeah, yeah. I just-

Joe Rogan 51:15 Oh, no.

Mark Greaney 51:16 No.

Joe Rogan 51:17 50 Cent.

Mark Greaney 51:17 50 Cent, but Tupac was too.

Joe Rogan 51:19 But he was shot a bunch of times.

Mark Greaney 51:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:20 But he died.

Mark Greaney 51:21 Not from that time.

Joe Rogan 51:23 But-

Mark Greaney 51:23 He survived one of those shootings.

Joe Rogan 51:25 Right, but he wasn't shot, like, nine times, was he?

Mark Greaney 51:27 Uh ...

Joe Rogan 51:28 I don't think he was.

Mark Greaney 51:28 You're not ... I, both, both are correct I believe.

Joe Rogan 51:32 (laughs)

Mark Greaney 51:33 (laughs) Yeah, there was a, there was a guy I think in, in New York that was shot 20 times by the police with .40 caliber pistols. So not, not li-

Joe Rogan 51:40 Jesus.

Mark Greaney 51:40 ... and he survived.

Joe Rogan 51:41 They used .40s in New York?

Mark Greaney 51:43 They, they were then. I'm, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:45 Wow. Isn't it funny, like, like there's, there's some talk on that, like, why they use such a high caliber. Like, do, are you trying to shoot somebody or not?

Mark Greaney 51:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:52 Like, what are you, like, I don't understand.

Mark Greaney 51:54 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:54 Like, do you want to shoot, give the cops all .22s?

Mark Greaney 51:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:56 Like, what are you saying?

Mark Greaney 51:57 Yeah, if, with .22, they're going to shoot him 12 times. What do you want?

Joe Rogan 51:59 Yeah. I don't-

Mark Greaney 52:00 (laughs) It's the same diff-

Joe Rogan 52:00 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 52:00 ... same amount of lead, you know? It's like, yeah, you, you're trying to stop a threat, whatever tool you need.

Joe Rogan 52:05 Yeah. It's, um ... Do you get people that are upset that you are doing gun porn or that you're doing these ...

Mark Greaney 52:14 Yes. Um, sometimes yes. Uh-

Joe Rogan 52:16 Oh.

Mark Greaney 52:16 ... you know, they, just people that read the book and say, you know, "It's too violent," blah, blah, blah. And it, and it's just not what they were looking for. And so I'm always kind of scratching my head at these reviews. I'm like, "Why did you spend 300, you know, why did you read 350 pages of a book that was not what you liked?" You know, I, I might not want to read a book about butterflies. Um, I wouldn't be, like, 293 pages going, "I'm gonna write, write a scathing review about a book I don't want to read."

Joe Rogan 52:39 That is a problem with people that write reviews on almost anything because when someone w- will enjoy something and they want to go see that something, that's their genre.

Mark Greaney 52:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:49 That's the thing they're interested in.

Mark Greaney 52:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:50 Then they're gonna write a review based on someone who actually enjoys the genre.

Mark Greaney 52:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:54 But you get a lot of reviewers who are just reviewing things that they have no interest in at all.

Mark Greaney 52:59 Yeah. I, don't get it.

Joe Rogan 53:00 And they write these horrible, negative reviews. And it's-

Mark Greaney 53:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:02 ... like what, who are you trying to convince? People that think exactly like you and weren't going to like it anyway?

Mark Greaney 53:07 Yeah, yeah. Well-

Joe Rogan 53:07 Like, it's, it's such a weird way to write things.

Mark Greaney 53:11 Jack Carr, I, Jack Carr and I had this conversation on his podcast once where he was, we were talking about the, the, the reader re- or the viewer reviews of our shows, Terminal List and Gray Man.

Joe Rogan 53:22 Yes.

Mark Greaney 53:22 And then the, the, like, professional reviews or whatever, and-

Joe Rogan 53:25 Yes.

Mark Greaney 53:25 And the, the people that watched it loved it overall. The reviewers hated it. But I mean, they're gonna hate stuff like that, uh-

Joe Rogan 53:33 Of course.

Mark Greaney 53:34 I mean, to a large degree, not, not everything, you know, there's some things that, that, you know, somehow universally loved. But I, but I said to Jack, I was like, "Which would you rather have, the 23 reviewers all love it, or the, you know, 100 million, million people that watch it lo- watch it?"

Joe Rogan 53:48 Yeah, 100%.

Mark Greaney 53:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:49 That's a great way to look at it. You know who's a good example of that?

Mark Greaney 53:52 Who's that?

Joe Rogan 53:53 Adam Sandler.

Mark Greaney 53:55 Oh, yeah, 'cause, yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:55 Adam Sandler's movies always get destroyed by the critics.

Mark Greaney 53:58 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:59 But I think they're fucking great.

Mark Greaney 54:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:00 I love his ... They're so silly-

Mark Greaney 54:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:03 And I love that I watch them with my kids.

Mark Greaney 54:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:05 And that they're, like, they're easy to digest. Like, even the Zohan, which is, like, a little racy.

Mark Greaney 54:10 Mm-hmm. Mm.

Joe Rogan 54:11 Hilarious.

Mark Greaney 54:12 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:12 Gets torn apart by the critics.

Mark Greaney 54:14 Yeah, and I think his stuff does really well. And-

Joe Rogan 54:16 Of course it does.

Mark Greaney 54:17 And, and...... he's just doing something different than what the, the critics... I remember, uh, David Lee Roth once said the reason that, um, you know, like, critics all hated him and they all loved Elvis Costello is 'cause all the critics looked like Elvis Costello (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 54:32 Ah.

Mark Greaney 54:32 Which, I don't know if that's true.

Joe Rogan 54:34 Well, that is a part of it, right? Elvis Costello was like the nerdy guy with the glasses.

Mark Greaney 54:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:39 And he wasn't the good-looking guy who had all the chicks with him-

Mark Greaney 54:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:41 ... in his open shirt.

Mark Greaney 54:42 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:43 And David Lee Roth was this stud-

Mark Greaney 54:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:45 ... who's doing karate kicks on stage.

Mark Greaney 54:47 There's... Yeah. There's, there's sour grapes involved at, at certain place... In certain places.

Joe Rogan 54:51 Unquestionably.

Mark Greaney 54:51 I mean, people can hate my books for a million different reasons and, and that doesn't make them wrong, but, uh...

Joe Rogan 54:55 But it's also the narrative of the critic was always so much more important than it is now.

Mark Greaney 54:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:59 'Cause now the narrative of the critic gets gr- drowned out by the narrative of the fans.

Mark Greaney 55:03 Yeah. A- absolutely. For better or worse. And-

Joe Rogan 55:06 I think it's for better.

Mark Greaney 55:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:08 Because y- you get people that aren't professional critics, you just get informed readers-

Mark Greaney 55:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:14 ... who enjoy it or don't enjoy it.

Mark Greaney 55:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:15 And then they share that, that... Like, whenever I go to an Amazon book review and I click on the reviews, I just read the reviews. Like, some of 'em are remarkably well written.

Mark Greaney 55:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:24 You know?

Mark Greaney 55:24 Oh, yeah. You, you see people that are passionate about your-

Joe Rogan 55:27 Yes.

Mark Greaney 55:28 ... e- even if, even if they're criticizing something.

Joe Rogan 55:30 Yes.

Mark Greaney 55:31 Um, you know, I, I've always had this philosophy, it's like, if you read my book, if you s- if you spend the 12 hours to read that book or whatever it takes, it's like, you get to, you get to share your opinion with whoever you want.

Joe Rogan 55:42 Yes.

Mark Greaney 55:42 You know? It's like, I, I can't begrudge that. Um, sometimes I'll disagree with what they say. Sometimes I'll agree with it. The worst, um, negative reviews are the ones where it's like, "Oh, this guy, this guy, he's got it." You know?

Joe Rogan 55:54 He's right. Yeah.

Mark Greaney 55:54 I like, I like it when they're just assholes, you know?

Joe Rogan 55:56 (laughs)

Mark Greaney 55:56 Where they're just like, "Oh, this guy's just... This guy's nobody."

Joe Rogan 55:59 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 55:59 But then sometimes you're going like, "Oh, he sees me. He s- (laughs) he sees the dark underbelly."

Joe Rogan 56:02 But those guys are really good because, like, they, th- the... If someone who can really see it-

Mark Greaney 56:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:07 ... and they, they expose something that makes you uncomfortable-

Mark Greaney 56:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:09 ... that gives you an opportunity to get better.

Mark Greaney 56:11 Yeah, yeah. To think about it.

Joe Rogan 56:12 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 56:12 And that, that does happen to me, for sure. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:14 I feel like the real problem with critics is that most critics wish they were writers, but they just don't have anything to contribute.

Mark Greaney 56:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 56:23 They're just not good.

Mark Greaney 56:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:25 And so they try to tear down other people's work, whether it's film critics or movie critics, or even standup comedy critics. They're just, they just, they don't have anything to contribute-

Mark Greaney 56:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:35 ... so they're bitter and negative.

Mark Greaney 56:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:36 They don't want to be critics. Like, nobody sits out and says like, "I really want to be a critic of other people's work."

Mark Greaney 56:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:41 No. Most people that are critics... Like, when you're writing an article, a criticism article, or writing a- an editorial, you are a creative. You're being creative.

Mark Greaney 56:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:52 But the predominant creativity involved in criticism is like this negative, bitchy, creative-

Mark Greaney 57:00 Right.

Joe Rogan 57:00 ... energy-

Mark Greaney 57:01 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:01 ... that's not attractive if you're trying to make something.

Mark Greaney 57:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:04 It's only attractive when you're tearing something down.

Mark Greaney 57:07 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 57:07 So, the energy of these pe- people have this, like, bitter, shitty energy.

Mark Greaney 57:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:11 It sucks for writing something unique and indivi- like, and creative, like c- coming up with your own book.

Mark Greaney 57:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:17 But it's good for tearing apart other people's stuff in a really, like, snarky way.

Mark Greaney 57:22 Yeah. I've been saying that for years and years, but never as eloquently... I, I... Like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna watch this later and write down what you just said. Be- because I've, I have said, like, you, you'll read a review and just to make the review a better little piece of writing for them, they basically change the story.

Joe Rogan 57:38 Yes.

Mark Greaney 57:38 You know, like... You know, they're, they're... There's basically-

Joe Rogan 57:40 Yes.

Mark Greaney 57:40 ... really disingenuous stuff in there.

Joe Rogan 57:42 Right.

Mark Greaney 57:42 Not every review, obviously. But, um, but that happens sometimes. And I'm going like, "Oh, okay. I..." As a writer, I know how you wanted to make these two paragraphs, like, l- like, really impactful here. So, you just told some bullshit about my story that is not even in the story.

Joe Rogan 57:57 Right.

Mark Greaney 57:57 You know? Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:57 They're just not good.

Mark Greaney 57:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:58 It's what it is. You're, you're, you're getting... It's, it's like non-athletes talking shit about athletes.

Mark Greaney 58:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:06 Like, you get that in the sports world.

Mark Greaney 58:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:08 You get, like, these basketball commentators online.

Mark Greaney 58:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:12 And then, like, doing podcasts and doing these shows where they're just talking crazy shit about these players.

Mark Greaney 58:18 Right.

Joe Rogan 58:19 And they can't fucking play.

Mark Greaney 58:21 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:22 They're not players.

Mark Greaney 58:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:23 You get that in the fighting world, too. You get these people that are talking shit about fighters. I'm like, "You can't fight."

Mark Greaney 58:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:28 "Shut the fuck up."

Mark Greaney 58:29 Yeah. They, they can be proved wrong a lot faster than-

Joe Rogan 58:32 Very quickly.

Mark Greaney 58:32 (laughs) Than, than somebody could prove a-

Joe Rogan 58:34 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 58:34 ... a critic wrong about writing. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:36 Yeah. The, the writing thing, though, it's... I mean, that's... It's a human nature thing. It's a tall poppy thing. You know, it's, uh, crabs in a bucket tearing down people that-

Mark Greaney 58:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:46 ... are more successful than you. If you're y- especially if you're a critic, you are a writer.

Mark Greaney 58:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:51 You're involved in the genre of writing.

Mark Greaney 58:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:53 Don't tell me you don't want to write something unique and creative, 'cause-

Mark Greaney 58:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:56 ... you certainly do.

Mark Greaney 58:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:57 Like, I remember Roger Ebert, um, w- who was... You know, Siskel and Ebert-

Mark Greaney 59:02 Yeah, sure.

Joe Rogan 59:02 ... classic.

Mark Greaney 59:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:03 He wrote one of the worst fucking screenplays. Like-

Mark Greaney 59:06 Really? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:07 ... if you... It's so bad and so crazy-

Mark Greaney 59:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:10 ... that you read it and you're like, "Oh."

Mark Greaney 59:13 Wow.

Joe Rogan 59:14 "Okay."

Mark Greaney 59:15 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:15 "Now I get it."

Mark Greaney 59:16 Yeah. It just-

Joe Rogan 59:17 "Now I know why you're a critic."

Mark Greaney 59:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:18 You're this, like, frustrated, creative type-

Mark Greaney 59:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:22 ... who didn't have the juice to write something that was actually good. It's... What is the b- the screenplay that Roger Ebert wrote? It's really weird. I read, like, many pages of it. I'm like, "This is crazy."

Mark Greaney 59:33 And you can just sort of discount everything that he says after that if you-

Joe Rogan 59:36 It's horrible. It's so bad.

Narrator 59:38 It says he co-wrote Beyond the Valley of the Dolls, which I don't...

Joe Rogan 59:42 Yeah, but what did he write?

Narrator 59:43 1970.

Joe Rogan 59:43 He wrote something by himself.

Narrator 59:45 Uh, I mean, I wrote Roger Ebert screenplay. It says there's a couple screenplays.

Joe Rogan 59:52 Yeah, but there's... Well, it'll say Ro- Robert E- why don't you Google-

Narrator 59:55 I did.

Joe Rogan 59:56 ... Robert Ebert-

Narrator 59:56 I did.

Joe Rogan 59:56 ... terrible screenplay (laughs) .

Narrator 59:59 Oh. I mean, this says there's a... It gave me four, four answers.

Joe Rogan 1:00:03 Beyond the Valley of the Dolls.

Narrator 1:00:04 Up.

Joe Rogan 1:00:05 Who Killed Bambi?

Narrator 1:00:07 Softcore sex comedy.

Joe Rogan 1:00:09 Maybe that's it. There's one of them that's kind of perverted.

Narrator 1:00:13 Well, that... I mean, that would be that movie.

Joe Rogan 1:00:14 That's probably it.

Narrator 1:00:16 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:16 Yeah. A man named, uh, Adolf Schwartz, Adolf Hitler in hiding. This is it.

Mark Greaney 1:00:22 Oh, my god.

Joe Rogan 1:00:23 Was living in a Bavarian-style castle in Northern California. After an orgy in the dungeon with three women-... and a man. He is murdered when someone places a ravenous piranha fish in his bathtub. This is a fucking dumb dis-

Mark Greaney 1:00:39 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:39 A voluptuous woman named Margo Winchester appears later in the town, uh, in the nearby town, Miranda, and is spotted by local sheriff, Homer Johnson. He tries to make advances, but Margo rejects flirtatiously at this point. After that, she is picked up by Leonard Box, a known troublemaker and son of a sawmill operator. An argument breaks out, the result that Leonard subdues and rapes the unconscious Margo after she accidentally kills him. What?

Mark Greaney 1:01:07 Ugh. Sounds ... Oh, okay. Based on an original idea by-

Joe Rogan 1:01:13 Yeah, he's out of his fucking mind.

Mark Greaney 1:01:15 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:15 He was out of his fucking ... It was ... Apparently, it's so bad, like the people-

Mark Greaney 1:01:18 It's beyond parody.

Joe Rogan 1:01:19 ... people that have read it and like, "What the fuck is wrong with you?"

Mark Greaney 1:01:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:22 But it makes you understand like, oh-

Mark Greaney 1:01:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:25 ... okay.

Mark Greaney 1:01:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:26 This is why you're so snarky when you're reviewing films.

Mark Greaney 1:01:28 Yeah, the chip on your shoulder. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:30 Yeah, yeah.

Mark Greaney 1:01:30 It was ... It's a strange thing to be a critic of stuff- Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:34 ... you know, because it's like, it is a kind of unfocused energy, like that-

Mark Greaney 1:01:38 Yeah, and it's, it's ... So much stuff is subjective. I mean, that doesn't mean I don't have a ...

Joe Rogan 1:01:41 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 1:01:42 We all have opinions, right?

Joe Rogan 1:01:43 Right.

Mark Greaney 1:01:43 So it's like, even though something's subjective, I can go, "Wow, I don't like that at all." But I don't ... It's not that I objectively don't like it. It's not like it's like, "These four words should not be ..." You know, usually if you're published, you're able to write a sentence, you know. Um, it, it's just, it's subjective.

Joe Rogan 1:01:57 I think people are, people are very much entitled to their own opinion. Don't get me wrong.

Mark Greaney 1:02:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:01 But what I think is that this, the cr- the model of the professional critic, I think i- it has so many problems with it. And I'm sure there's people out there that are professional critics that are very good. And don't, don't ... This is not a blanket statement.

Mark Greaney 1:02:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:16 But I think we're better served by the unprofessional, by the actual person who's just an intelligent person, who's a fan of the work, who reads the book-

Mark Greaney 1:02:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:27 ... and then can write a little Amazon review or some other critique about it. That's where ... Or tweet about it.

Mark Greaney 1:02:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:34 That's what I think is more valuable.

Mark Greaney 1:02:37 Yeah. And, and, and in the aggregate too.

Joe Rogan 1:02:39 Yeah.

Mark Greaney 1:02:39 So you say like, "Well, s- ... You know, this many people liked it." And these-

Joe Rogan 1:02:42 Right.

Mark Greaney 1:02:42 You know? And, um, each individual review, you can sort of like maybe throw-

Joe Rogan 1:02:46 Yes.

Mark Greaney 1:02:46 ... throw away the top and the bottom ones.

Joe Rogan 1:02:48 Yes.

Mark Greaney 1:02:48 It's like, somebody tells me that I'm the best writer since Frederick Forsyth or, or whatever. And I go like, "All right, I'm discounting you." But somebody says, "Hey, I really loved your book. It was fun." You know?

Joe Rogan 1:02:57 Yes.

Mark Greaney 1:02:57 I'm like, "Okay, that, that I'm accepting." And then somebody that says, "You're, you know, the worst thing that ever lived." You know, I'm like, "I can discount you." But there's, there's levels of criticism where I'm like, "Crap, I can't discount that." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:08 Yeah. Well, those are valuable though, right?

Mark Greaney 1:03:10 Yeah, sure. Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:03:11 It's like, i- i- like if you crowdsourced all the opinions, the, the problem is you can game that.

Mark Greaney 1:03:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:18 Right? If a person's problematic, like if you were gonna crowdsource a JK Rowling's book today.

Mark Greaney 1:03:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:23 Well, that ... The, the thing about the criticisms, it would be overrun by people who are like-

Mark Greaney 1:03:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:28 ... trans activists-

Mark Greaney 1:03:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:29 ... who are angry at her for her-

Mark Greaney 1:03:31 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:03:31 ... stance on women being women.

Mark Greaney 1:03:33 Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:03:34 And that, that becomes a problem. And, uh, I've said that often about fights, that maybe we should crowdsource the scoring instead of having these people that are professional judges, 'cause some of them, they get it so wrong.

Mark Greaney 1:03:47 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:48 And some, some scoring is so ... Some ... Like, you'll ... You see like 49, 47, 49, 47, and then you'll see one that is just like 50, 45. And you're like, "How?"

Mark Greaney 1:03:59 You're watching a different fight.

Joe Rogan 1:04:00 How are you watching the same fight?

Mark Greaney 1:04:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:01 It doesn't ... You're so different than everyone else that scored it.

Mark Greaney 1:04:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:05 But then the crowd fu- thing is like then you could game the system and have-

Mark Greaney 1:04:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:10 ... your fans-

Mark Greaney 1:04:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:11 ... like vote and say you won the fight-

Mark Greaney 1:04:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:13 ... when maybe you didn't.

Mark Greaney 1:04:15 And, and, and I'm sure that happens. I have a lady that ... (laughs) I won't go into the whole story, but I have a lady that re- ... Makes an Amazon review every year when my book comes out because she hates me.

Joe Rogan 1:04:25 Oh, boy.

Mark Greaney 1:04:25 She used to be like, be like my number one fan and then she told another author. It's like, "I heard you wrote ... You're writing Mark Rainey's books now," or whatever, and then so I emailed her. I was like, "Hey, uh, I, I write my own books and authors don't love it when people are saying they don't." And she just came at me with this rage and this was seven, eight years ago, and I still hear from her and it's, "F off-

Joe Rogan 1:04:48 Wow.

Mark Greaney 1:04:48 ... and F off and die," and stuff like that, and she'll send me emails. And, um, she's ... She says a review ev- ... A one-star review on every one of my books is from this woman named Sheryl.

Joe Rogan 1:04:57 (laughs)

Mark Greaney 1:04:57 And, and it's just sort of like, you know, "He's ... He lives in a mansion now," which I don't. And, uh, you know, i- it's like ... At one point, in one of the reviews, she's like, "I understand why h- his first wife left him." Which she didn't.

Joe Rogan 1:05:08 Whoa.

Mark Greaney 1:05:09 But, you know, (laughs) and you're going like ... All right, I guess I've, I guess ... I'm always gonna be skewed. I mean, you know, I can get 15,000 reviews, but I mean, it's just funny that