Joe Rogan Experience #1942 - Mark Greaney

1. 0:00 – 2:49

   Rogan discovers The Gray Man: violent escapism, audiobooks, and why it works

   1. MGMark Greaney0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. NANarrator0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music) What's up, Mark? How are you?

   4. MGMark Greaney0:13

      (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      Nice to meet you, man.

   6. MGMark Greaney0:14

      It's very nice to meet you.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      I've read, uh, a l- I'm on the 11th book-

   8. MGMark Greaney0:18

      Oh, wow.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:19

      ... of yours now.

   10. MGMark Greaney0:19

       Oh, wow.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:20

       Yeah. So the whole Gray Man series, I'm in, uh, I'm on, um, Sierra Six.

   12. MGMark Greaney0:25

       Yeah, yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:26

       So-

   14. MGMark Greaney0:26

       The new one comes out immediately, so (laughs) -

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:29

       Yeah.

   16. MGMark Greaney0:29

       ... book 12 i-

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:30

       They sent me the new one.

   18. MGMark Greaney0:31

       Good.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:32

       Yeah, so I have a copy of it.

   20. MGMark Greaney0:33

       That's awesome. I appreciate you reading.

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       It's, uh, you write some fucked-up books, man. (laughs)

   22. MGMark Greaney0:39

       (laughs) It's true. It's true.

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:40

       Just, you seem like such a normal guy.

   24. MGMark Greaney0:42

       (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan0:42

       I was always wondering, I'm like, "How does someone write like this and not be a total psycho?" Like, the fact that you have those thoughts in your mind, and you can envision and create these scenarios in your brain.

   26. MGMark Greaney0:57

       Yeah, it, that pops into my head a lot when I'm talking to people-

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:00

       (laughs)

   28. MGMark Greaney1:00

       ... like, uh, my aunt who's passed away, but she was 93, and, you know, it's like, "Hey, Dorothy, here's my book about sex trafficking. I hope you enjoy it." (laughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:09

       (laughs)

   30. MGMark Greaney1:09

       You know, she re- she read it. And c- 'cause she would, my aunt, if I joined the Taliban, she'd be like, "Well, they, you know, they have some nice clothing," or something.
2. 2:49 – 5:27

   From Jack Carr recommendations to Hollywood adaptation realities

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:49

      ... because th- because it's so compelling and because the books are so interesting. And by the way, shout-out to, uh, Jack Carr, 'cause Jack Carr is the guy who turned me onto you.

   2. MGMark Greaney2:57

      Oh, that's fantastic.

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:58

      'Cause I had read his first book, and I was like, "This is great. Do you have any other authors that you recommend? Like, who are you into?" And then he told me about you.

   4. MGMark Greaney3:05

      Yeah, yeah, we've been friends from before his first book came out. Uh, I, we were connected with one another through a guy in the firearms industry. And, and I was like, "Yeah, I think this g-" I'd read his book. I was like, "Yeah, he's going somewhere." Little did I know, he, I think he'd already had it optioned and, uh, for, for TV, so he was good.

   5. JRJoe Rogan3:21

      Yeah, he's just an awesome person, too.

   6. MGMark Greaney3:23

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan3:23

      You know, uh, he's just a, a really great guy. You know, I met him, uh, a few years back in, uh, elk-hunting camp.

   8. MGMark Greaney3:29

      Oh, wow.

   9. JRJoe Rogan3:30

      It's actually where I met him in, in Utah.

   10. MGMark Greaney3:31

       Oh, wow.

   11. JRJoe Rogan3:32

       And, uh, I didn't know who he was. I hadn't read any of his books. He gave me a copy of his book, just seemed like a really nice guy.

   12. MGMark Greaney3:38

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan3:38

       And then I got it, and I'm like, "This book is fucking great."

   14. MGMark Greaney3:40

       Yeah, yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan3:41

       And got into it-

   16. MGMark Greaney3:41

       You did great with the series, too. I, I-

   17. JRJoe Rogan3:42

       Oh, yeah.

   18. MGMark Greaney3:43

       ... I was imp- impressed with it, you know? I was really impressed.

   19. JRJoe Rogan3:45

       Yeah, I w- I, um, I enjoyed The Gray Man movie, but it was not as good as your book. It just-

   20. MGMark Greaney3:51

       Thank you for saying that. I appreciate it.

   21. JRJoe Rogan3:52

       It just wasn't the same story.

   22. MGMark Greaney3:55

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan3:55

       Like, they, they, they Hollywoodized it.

   24. MGMark Greaney3:58

       Absolutely, and it, you know, I liked it, and, and what I say, and I don't know how this makes me sound, is, like, the movie is the best possible commercial for my writing. And if you're a writer, you want eyeballs on your work. And so, it's, I l- I love the movie, and, you know, there was d- bits of dialogue in there and I- things they did with the plot that, that I really liked, but, you know, it's not as gritty. It's not, um...

   25. JRJoe Rogan4:19

       Not nearly.

   26. MGMark Greaney4:20

       Yeah, you know, and, and they do things that they have to do shorthand in a, in a movie. I, I get 100,000 words to write a book or 150,000 words to write a book, so, um, I have some luxuries that, you know, they don't have putting something on the screen. But I like the fact that they're different in- to the- because there's still a reason to read my book. (laughs)

   27. JRJoe Rogan4:38

       Yeah.

   28. MGMark Greaney4:39

       If you saw the movie and enjoyed it, hopefully it turns you onto the book and, and then you see something different in there.

   29. JRJoe Rogan4:43

       No, I definitely think there's that element to it, because it is, uh, it's, uh, it's m- for sure a Hollywoodized version of these gritty books that you write.

   30. MGMark Greaney4:52

       Right, yeah.
3. 5:27 – 11:18

   Casting Court Gentry: Gosling, unknowns, and the Charlize Theron alternate universe

   1. JRJoe Rogan5:27

      If you could pick a person, like an actor, if you could start from scratch, no disrespect to, it's Ryan Reynolds or Ryan-

   2. MGMark Greaney5:35

      Gosling.

   3. JRJoe Rogan5:35

      ... Gosling.

   4. MGMark Greaney5:35

      Yeah. Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan5:36

      Why do I always fuck that up?

   6. MGMark Greaney5:37

      (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan5:37

      I always fuck that up. I couldn't pick either one of them out of a fucking lineup to save my life.

   8. MGMark Greaney5:42

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan5:42

      Gosling. Ryan Gosling. I really like the guy, too.

   10. MGMark Greaney5:45

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan5:45

       By the way. Um, wh- uh, who would you pick if you w- if, you know, just, like, if you could just, like, say any actor. Like, who, who do you think you would go with?

   12. MGMark Greaney5:54

       You know, that's, it's, it's a tough question because th- the, that thing has been in Hollywood, the, the Gray Man's been in Hollywood since two months before the little paperback came out in 2009. So it's been-

   13. JRJoe Rogan6:03

       Hmm.

   14. MGMark Greaney6:03

       ... bouncing around, and I've heard every actor. At one point Brad Pitt was signed onto it, and-

   15. JRJoe Rogan6:08

       Really?

   16. MGMark Greaney6:08

       Yeah, yeah, like back 2011 or something. And then it fell apart, and it came back. And each time they would send me a script or whoever was doing it. And at one point Charlize Theron wanted to do it, and they rewrote-

   17. JRJoe Rogan6:18

       What?

   18. MGMark Greaney6:18

       Re- yeah, they rewrote the whole script.

   19. JRJoe Rogan6:19

       She wanted to be the girl?

   20. MGMark Greaney6:21

       Nope, she wanted to be Court Gentry.

   21. JRJoe Rogan6:22

       Oh, my God.

   22. MGMark Greaney6:23

       So they writ- they, they wrote a script for it, and it was good screenwriters, and I remember reading the script going like-

   23. JRJoe Rogan6:28

       Was it The Gray Woman or did you call her-

   24. MGMark Greaney6:30

       No.

   25. JRJoe Rogan6:30

       ... The Gray Non-binary Person?

   26. MGMark Greaney6:32

       It was... (laughs) It was still The Gray Man, her name was still Court Gentry, but every-

   27. JRJoe Rogan6:35

       What?

   28. MGMark Greaney6:36

       ... thing, everything was different. And then in, they never really explained, is that short for Courtney or something? They never-

   29. JRJoe Rogan6:40

       Oh, my God.

   30. MGMark Greaney6:41

       Um, but it was just a completely different plot, and I thought-
4. 11:18 – 14:52

   Prolific output and the late-bloomer path: 20 years to publish, then 23 books

   1. JRJoe Rogan11:18

      It was great. You've written a lot of books, man.

   2. MGMark Greaney11:21

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan11:21

      And, you know, like you're super prolific with these books. It's very impressive. You're basically banging out w- one, what is it, like every like 10 or 11 months?

   4. MGMark Greaney11:29

      Yeah, it, almost two a year, but not quite. So my first book came out in '09 and Burner, my new one, is my 23rd book. So-

   5. JRJoe Rogan11:38

      Wow.

   6. MGMark Greaney11:38

      ... twen- 23 books in 12 years, something like that.

   7. JRJoe Rogan11:41

      That's incredible.

   8. MGMark Greaney11:42

      Yeah. It, it, it's be- it's because they've asked me to do it (laughs) and, you know, I have these opportunities. I, it took me 20 years to get published and so I've been trying-

   9. JRJoe Rogan11:48

      Really?

   10. MGMark Greaney11:49

       I've been trying to catch up. I didn't get published till I was 42 years old.

   11. JRJoe Rogan11:51

       Wow.

   12. MGMark Greaney11:51

       And so I'm desperately trying to like, you know (laughs) make up for lost time, I guess.

   13. JRJoe Rogan11:56

       So, what were you writing in all those years when you weren't publishing?

   14. MGMark Greaney12:00

       I wasn't-

   15. JRJoe Rogan12:00

       Were you just trying and just...

   16. MGMark Greaney12:02

       Yeah. I mean, honestly, I was lazy. Uh, I, I never believed anything could happen from it, but I like to write and I like to think about books and stuff, so I spent 15 years writing my first novel. I started it literally in 1990 and finished it in '05.

   17. JRJoe Rogan12:16

       Wow.

   18. MGMark Greaney12:16

       And never showed it to anybody. I mean, uh, you know, like three friends probably read it. And I put that aside and then I wrote my second book in seven months because it's like there's something about... You know, I always say everything in this world is cheapened by my ability to do it, you know? (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan12:31

       (laughs)

   20. MGMark Greaney12:31

       It's like I always wanted to learn a foreign language and, you know, I don't, I'm not super fluent in any foreign languages, but I speak some German and some Spanish. And, uh, it's like once, once I'd-... learned to do it, I'm like, oh, it, it's not that impressive because I can fricking do it, you know?

   21. JRJoe Rogan12:43

       Right.

   22. MGMark Greaney12:44

       And, and writing a book was the same way. For 15 years, it was this big albatross on, uh, you know, on, just hanging on me and I didn't know that I could ever do it. And, uh, and once I finished it, I was like, "Yeah, how hard did I really work?"

   23. JRJoe Rogan12:55

       (laughs)

   24. MGMark Greaney12:55

       That was mostly talking about, you know, (laughs) writing a book and not actually writing a book. So then I went out and wrote a book and Gray Man was actually my fourth completed novel. It was the first one to get published.

   25. JRJoe Rogan13:06

       Really?

   26. MGMark Greaney13:06

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan13:06

       So all those years, the 15 years, it was you just sort of not being fully committed to writing, or...

   28. MGMark Greaney13:13

       Yes, tha- that's it in a nutshell. 15 years for that first book, and then I got some momentum. Like once I finished it and I thought, hey, you know, it's, it... The internet was invented while I was writing the damn thing, so...

   29. JRJoe Rogan13:24

       (laughs)

   30. MGMark Greaney13:24

       I, I, like, looked up, like, how do you get published? 'Cause I never even looked at that, you know?
5. 14:52 – 18:04

   Quitting Medtronic—then missing the severance package (and surviving anyway)

   1. JRJoe Rogan14:52

      So what was your job?

   2. MGMark Greaney14:54

      Uh, I worked in, I worked for a company called Medtronic, it was a medical device company. And, uh, I, it wasn't a dead-end- dead-end job, but I was making it a dead-end job (laughs) just because it wasn't really where I wanted to be. I wanted to be a writer and, um...

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:07

      What were you doing for them?

   4. MGMark Greaney15:08

      Um, I worked in, uh, international customer care. So we had subsidiaries in oth- it's a medical device company and we had subsidiaries in other countries, and, um, I would sort of get the, the supplies to the subsidiaries and go to trade shows and that sort of thing, so...

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:23

      And so when you left that job, did you say, "Hey guys, uh, I'm a published author, gotta go"? (laughs)

   6. MGMark Greaney15:29

      (laughs) Yeah, so there's a story to that, that it's, it's... My dad had passed away in 2005, and my dad, um, he had a kind of a white collar job. He ran the NBC affiliate in Memphis where I'm from, um, but he was very blue collar mindset in that you had to have a job and there was no way my dad would've let me quit my job. (laughs) Even though I'd- you know, my first book was just a, a paperback, mass market paperback, it wasn't a big release. It was Gray Man, it turned into something, but when it first came out, it was not a big deal other than the fact that Hollywood was interested. But I had this... You know, it, it wasn't quit-your-job money at all, and then they asked me to write two more books and, in the s- make a series out of it, which I never even had considered. I was just trying to hold something in my hand (laughs) with my name on it and a, and a title and a cover. I wanted to be, you know, that level of a published author. I had no higher ambition. And they asked me to continue it as a series and I said yes, and then I realized, it's like, oh my god, I, I've got to crank out three books in the next whatever number of months. It's like, I have to quit my job. Um, and it wasn't quit-your-job money as I said, and this was before the Hollywood money came in. So I went to my boss, I'd been with the company for like nine and a half years, I went to my boss and I put my notice in on a Wednesday. And the next Monday, they brought everybody in to the auditorium for a meeting, you know, 800 people there, and they're like, "Hey, listen, um, like sales are down or the economy..." You know, this is 2009, so you know, "The economy's not doing well," or whatever, "so we're offering voluntary separation. If you quit your job right now, we will give you a month's pay for every year you've worked here, we will give you insurance for a year, we will do this, this and this." Well, I'd quit my job four days before (laughs) and-

   7. JRJoe Rogan17:11

      (laughs)

   8. MGMark Greaney17:11

      ... so you think like, oh my gosh, there's this black cloud over me, and I was scared about quitting my job obviously, and, uh, and I remember my boss came into my cubicle right afterward, she's like, "I'm gonna talk to HR and see if they will allow you to come in." I'm like, "Why the hell would they do that?" I'm like, "I'm the best thing that's happened to HR in a while (laughs) you know?" This, this dummy quits three days before they offer you a ton of money to quit, so.

   9. JRJoe Rogan17:32

      (laughs)

   10. MGMark Greaney17:32

       So for, for about six months, I just felt like I had this cloud over my head and I'd done the stupidest thing in the world. And then the, the film, film rights got optioned for Gray Man and it still wasn't quit-your-job money, but it was like I can eat (laughs) for a year money. And, you know, within a couple of years, I was working with Tom Clancy and things started to really go in the right direction.

   11. JRJoe Rogan17:50

       Wow. That's an amazing story, man. I love it.

   12. MGMark Greaney17:53

       It could've gone either way. (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan17:55

       But isn't that, like, always how it works with some of the best stories?

   14. MGMark Greaney17:58

       Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan17:58

       That it could've gone either way?

   16. MGMark Greaney17:59

       Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's, there's a sad version of that story, too, and I'm lucky-

   17. JRJoe Rogan18:03

       Yeah.

   18. MGMark Greaney18:03

       ... that I, I didn't have to experience it.

6. 18:04 – 26:11

   Manifesting, talent, and delusion: why “just believe” isn’t enough

   1. JRJoe Rogan18:04

      That's my problem when people start talking about, like, manifesting your reality-

   2. MGMark Greaney18:08

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan18:08

      ... and The Secret and stuff like that.

   4. MGMark Greaney18:10

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan18:10

      Like, yeah...... you know, talk to people that win-

   6. MGMark Greaney18:13

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan18:13

      ... and they'll tell you that story, that I knew it was gonna happen-

   8. MGMark Greaney18:16

      Right.

   9. JRJoe Rogan18:16

      ... and I made it happen. I had a vision board. Talk to people that tried and failed and are homeless-

   10. MGMark Greaney18:21

       Yeah. Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan18:21

       ... and they have a different version of this-

   12. MGMark Greaney18:23

       Absolutely.

   13. JRJoe Rogan18:23

       ... manifesting reality story.

   14. MGMark Greaney18:24

       And I've fallen on my face in so many ways in my life that, like, I, I recognize how lucky this is. And I would not, you know, grab some kid and go, like, "Quit your job. Be a writer, man. It's gonna, you know..." Just 'cause it worked for me in that one instance doesn't mean it would, you know, work in any instance.

   15. JRJoe Rogan18:40

       Yeah, I think the best inspiration you could give to someone is just your own success.

   16. MGMark Greaney18:45

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan18:45

       To, if, for you to tell people to do what you did, it's almost irresponsible.

   18. MGMark Greaney18:50

       Right.

   19. JRJoe Rogan18:50

       (laughs)

   20. MGMark Greaney18:51

       Right, right, yeah. And, and I feel like everything I've learned, I've learned by doing it wrong a few times- Mm-hmm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan18:56

       (laughs)

   22. MGMark Greaney18:56

       ... you know? And so, like, when I-

   23. JRJoe Rogan18:57

       Yeah.

   24. MGMark Greaney18:57

       I'm not, I'm not like Yoda. I'm not this guy on a mountain, like, you know-

   25. JRJoe Rogan19:00

       Right.

   26. MGMark Greaney19:00

       ... telling them. It's like, yeah, no, I've, I've done a lot wrong and what I might tell you could be totally wrong.

   27. JRJoe Rogan19:05

       But learning how to do stuff, that's a part of the process.

   28. MGMark Greaney19:07

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan19:07

       You do stuff wrong.

   30. MGMark Greaney19:08

       Yeah.
7. 26:11 – 28:53

   Writing to avoid “aw, come on” moments: plausibility, research, and selling the outlandish

   1. JRJoe Rogan26:11

      It's just... It's always interesting when you're... Reading is so fascinating to me, reading fiction, because someone is creating this world and you're trusting them with all these people in this world to, for it to not mess with your, your sen-... It doesn't... Y- you know, there's a suspension of disbelief that's involved in any, you know, reading literature or watching a movie or anything like that.

   2. MGMark Greaney26:39

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan26:39

      And you just don't want to mess with it-

   4. MGMark Greaney26:42

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan26:42

      ... to the point where someone's reading it going, "Aw, come on."

   6. MGMark Greaney26:45

      Yeah. Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan26:45

      That's what you... You don't want an aw, come on moment.

   8. MGMark Greaney26:48

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan26:48

      And you do a great job of avoiding aw, come on moments while you're navigating this impossible world of this elite assassin who somehow or another never gets killed.

   10. MGMark Greaney26:57

       Yeah. Um... (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan26:58

       (laughs)

   12. MGMark Greaney26:59

       Thanks for saying that, and I really know where that came from. It came from a very specific place. So, I had an agent interested in me, um, when... He turned me down on a couple books, but he- he kept saying, "You know, you're good. Write me something else." And, um, I wrote the, the opening for The Gray Man and, um, there's a... It's a sniper thing and, uh, an American helicopter gets shot down and this guy that has nothing to do with the operation, with the American soldiers, is just trying to get out of the kill zone where he's killed somebody and he takes this sniper shot and kills some of the people that killed the Americans. And so I g- I gave that agent the first 50 pages of the book. I'm still an unpublished author. I'm like, "Will you tell me what you think?" He's like, "Uh, yeah. It's great. The shooting those guys from a mile away, that's really badass, but he needs to save somebody." And I'm like, "Wait. How's he gonna save somebody? He's a mile away and it's, like, Al-Qaeda." You know, this is 2007. And, um, and he's like, "I don't know. I'm not the writer, but he needs to save somebody." So, I went back into the story and I was like, "Well, sh- shit. That doesn't really... You know, that- that's so implausible." But then I'm like, "All right. I guess it's my job to sell that." And the whole series was informed by that early thing, because what I do is I create pretty outlandish things and then work my ass off to, to sell them to the reader, you know?

   13. JRJoe Rogan28:15

       Mm.

   14. MGMark Greaney28:15

       Put in, put in the real world stuff, the geopolitical stuff, put in all these, um, you know... Explain the hows and the whys to the best that you can and then, at some point, you know, the bad guys have to miss (laughs) their shots a lot more than the good guys miss their shots.

   15. JRJoe Rogan28:31

       Yeah.

   16. MGMark Greaney28:32

       Yeah. So, you know, it- it's... It is... It's fanciful. Some people call it gun porn, but at the same time-

   17. JRJoe Rogan28:39

       Gun porn? (laughs)

   18. MGMark Greaney28:39

       (laughs) Yeah. That's a thing.

   19. JRJoe Rogan28:40

       Is that what they call it?

   20. MGMark Greaney28:40

       That's what they call it. Um, but, but at the same time, you know, there's, there's like a heart to the story and all that that I'm trying to, like, pull the, pull the reader into where they don't go, "This is just way too outta, outta, outta left field."

8. 28:53 – 37:49

   Process and routine: pantsing with guardrails, word quotas, and morning focus

   1. JRJoe Rogan28:53

      (smacks lips) How... What is your writing process like? Do you like, do you, do you have ideas before you sit down and write them? Do you have, like, little notes of maybe that would be fun or maybe he could do this and then sit down and try to piece them all together? Like, how do you do it?

   2. MGMark Greaney29:06

      Yeah. I write sort of by the seat of my pants, but I do come up with some little, even if it's three pages of what the story is about, you know, this book is about artificial intelligence and robotics and the bad guy, you know, wants to destroy America or whatever, and then you flesh that out a little more and a little more. And then at some point, and this is what I always recommend to writers is just sit down and start writing and you'll figure what your story's about. I- if you, if you don't have any blueprint, (laughs) then I think you're gonna get yourself in trouble. But, I mean, everybody's different. I, I know some authors that they have every chapter completely plotted out-

   3. JRJoe Rogan29:44

      Oh, yeah.

   4. MGMark Greaney29:44

      ... and everything, and then they just go and write a chapter a day because they've spent months plotting it out.

   5. JRJoe Rogan29:48

      Hm.

   6. MGMark Greaney29:49

      And I, I kind of have to find the story in the stories I'm writing and, you know, the dialogue, two characters talking to each other and I'm like, "Well, there's no tension here. I have to create some tension." And you come up for some reason there's tension between these two people and then that informs another part of the story and then sooner or later you've got a book. Every, every book... I'm not a super confident writer, so every book it's, you know, spring/early summer is the biggest piece of crap in the world and then sometimes- somehow by August I get it turned in and edited by October and I'm happy with it and proud of it, but-

   7. JRJoe Rogan30:20

      My friend, Ari, has a little piece of paper on his laptop-It's a quote by Ernest Hemingway, it says, "Every first draft is shit."

   8. MGMark Greaney30:28

      (laughs) Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I- I- I have said... That's good. I've said it... If I died when one of my books is, like, 98% done, it- it's unusable. Like them-

   9. JRJoe Rogan30:38

      (laughs)

   10. MGMark Greaney30:38

       They wouldn't be able to fix it. I don't know if that's true or not but, like, you know, as a writer, you know where all the bodies are buried in a 160,000 word book.

   11. JRJoe Rogan30:44

       Yeah.

   12. MGMark Greaney30:44

       And it's like, "Oh, that doesn't make sense, and this connection here isn't there," and so, like, it kind of, like, weighs on you until you get everything cleaned up to the best, best you can.

   13. JRJoe Rogan30:53

       Yeah, Stephen King said that he doesn't really have an outline.

   14. MGMark Greaney30:56

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan30:56

       He just-

   16. MGMark Greaney30:56

       I believe it.

   17. JRJoe Rogan30:57

       ... he sits down and starts writing.

   18. MGMark Greaney30:58

       Yeah. He- he's amazing. He is, uh, just another species. (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan31:03

       Yeah.

   20. MGMark Greaney31:03

       I'm- I'm so impressed with that guy.

   21. JRJoe Rogan31:04

       Well, certainly in the early days of his career, right?

   22. MGMark Greaney31:07

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan31:07

       The early days of his career, it's- to me, it's the most interesting. And this is not to disparage people that are clean and sober. It's not to disparage-

   24. MGMark Greaney31:15

       (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan31:15

       ... the idea of getting clean and sober. You definitely should do that. Your health is more important than anything.

   26. MGMark Greaney31:20

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan31:20

       But-

   28. MGMark Greaney31:21

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan31:21

       ... when that guy was fucked up, he was writing some amazing shit.

   30. MGMark Greaney31:24

       Yeah, yeah. And he- he- he didn't create a genre, but he created a genre, basically.
9. 37:49 – 45:13

   Creative fuel, stimulants, and altered states: coffee, Adderall mishaps, and edible paranoia

   1. JRJoe Rogan37:49

      Do you drink coffee?

   2. MGMark Greaney37:50

      I drink a lot of coffee. (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan37:51

      A lot of coffee?

   4. MGMark Greaney37:51

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan37:52

      Yeah.

   6. MGMark Greaney37:52

      Yeah, yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan37:52

      That helps.

   8. MGMark Greaney37:53

      Yeah, it does help out.

   9. JRJoe Rogan37:53

      I, I had a buddy of mine who started snorting Adderall to write-

   10. MGMark Greaney37:56

       Oh, God.

   11. JRJoe Rogan37:56

       ... and then his wife was like, "What the fuck are you doing?"

   12. MGMark Greaney37:59

       Does it work?

   13. JRJoe Rogan37:59

       He's like, "I gotta get this done."

   14. MGMark Greaney38:00

       Look at me, I'm like, "Does it work?" (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan38:01

       Yeah. Apparently, it does.

   16. MGMark Greaney38:02

       Yes.

   17. JRJoe Rogan38:03

       I don't know, but his wife had a real problem with it. (laughs)

   18. MGMark Greaney38:05

       Yeah, I, I guess. I-

   19. JRJoe Rogan38:06

       It was the snorting, I think. He just-

   20. MGMark Greaney38:08

       Yeah. (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan38:08

       ... took the Adderall-

   22. MGMark Greaney38:10

       Exactly.

   23. JRJoe Rogan38:10

       ... but he's like, "I want it to work quick."

   24. MGMark Greaney38:11

       Yeah. It's, I've, I, I've tried Adderall because some people told me it was, you know, and I got a prescription for it. And, um, I, it just made me feel kind of wacky and, uh, and I remember one, one time I took Adderall, I'm like, yeah, I was really focused. I took all of my fire logs off the fire log holder and swept that thing up-

   25. JRJoe Rogan38:31

       (laughs)

   26. MGMark Greaney38:31

       ... and put all the fire logs back. It's like meanwhile, I've got to write a book.

   27. JRJoe Rogan38:33

       (laughs) Yeah, people say it makes you clean.

   28. MGMark Greaney38:36

       Yeah. It made me c-

   29. JRJoe Rogan38:37

       It makes you want to clean things.

   30. MGMark Greaney38:37

       That's what it made me do.
10. 45:13 – 52:05

    Research through lived experience: firearms training, the real meaning of “gray man,” and tradecraft realism

    1. MGMark Greaney45:13

       No, I, you know, I've trained with firearms a lot, um-

    2. JRJoe Rogan45:18

       Have you always done that?

    3. MGMark Greaney45:19

       No. That was really to get i- involved with, uh, the writing.

    4. JRJoe Rogan45:24

       The books?

    5. MGMark Greaney45:24

       Yeah, to learn about the writing and I started, um, training probably 2005, 4 or 5, something like that, and-

    6. JRJoe Rogan45:30

       Where do you train? Do you train at, like, a tactical place?

    7. MGMark Greaney45:32

       Yeah. It, it's been at different places, but the, I've done most of my training at a place in Middle Tennessee called Tactical Response and, you know, back at that point, they were training a lot of civilian contractors and so I took a... You know, you take pistol, an advanced pistol, and a rifle, an advanced rifle, and, um, this and that and then there's these things called, like, you know, HRCC, High-Risk Civilian Contractor classes. And I took a bunch of those and they're, they're like a week long and you stay in the bunk house or the team rooms with the guys. And I, and I learned really quick that, like, it's cool to learn about the guns and the gear and stuff for your books, but it's so much more impactful to sit there in the team room and drink Scotch with, you know, SWAT guys or fifth, special forces group dude, or, or whatever. You know? It's just like these been there, done that guys, contractors, Blackwater guys, um, back then. And, uh, and so, you know, I don't... I feel like I kind of became a mascot at that school.

    8. JRJoe Rogan46:26

       Mm.

    9. MGMark Greaney46:26

       I probably took fif- 50 classes (laughs) . I probably spent close to, you know, a couple hundred days there in Tennessee. And I've, I've done some other training. Um, I own a bunch of the firearms that are in the, in the books and, uh, and like to train when I can. Um, it's less and less as you get older and, and, uh, busier and more family and all that kind of stuff.

    10. JRJoe Rogan46:48

        Yeah.

    11. MGMark Greaney46:48

        But, but I, I really do want to get back into it even more.

    12. JRJoe Rogan46:51

        So when you were talking to these, uh, special forces guys, did you let them know that you're writing, that you write The Gray Man?

    13. MGMark Greaney47:00

        Yeah, yeah. And, um, y- early on. I mean, I, I actually heard the term "The Gray Man" at one of these classes from, from a guy, I think he was a contractor, which is just... They would say, you know, "Be The Gray Man," which is, like, not wear the tactical gear and the 511 pants and the-

    14. JRJoe Rogan47:16

        Mm-hmm.

    15. MGMark Greaney47:16

        ... Wirelex glasses and the-

    16. JRJoe Rogan47:18

        Yeah.

    17. MGMark Greaney47:18

        ... the Luminox watches or, or whatever.

    18. JRJoe Rogan47:20

        Ah.

    19. MGMark Greaney47:20

        Because they're traveling into the Middle East and, you know, the airport in Dubai or something like that, they, Al-Qaeda would have, like, watchers there, you know, seeing who was coming in and, and things like that, so...

    20. JRJoe Rogan47:32

        And if you're there with Salomon boots on, looking tactical.

    21. MGMark Greaney47:34

        Yeah, exactly. You got your Salomons on-

    22. JRJoe Rogan47:36

        Black Rifle Coffee T-shirt.

    23. MGMark Greaney47:37

        (laughs) Yeah, exactly. You're kind of self-identifying.

    24. JRJoe Rogan47:40

        Yeah, yeah.

    25. MGMark Greaney47:40

        Yeah, and-

    26. JRJoe Rogan47:40

        Yeah.

    27. MGMark Greaney47:41

        ... um, so it's all about, like, not doing that.

    28. JRJoe Rogan47:44

        Mm-hmm.

    29. MGMark Greaney47:44

        And, and that's kind of... And my character has expanded to where he basically, you know... Is invisible man.

    30. JRJoe Rogan47:50

        Yeah. Yeah, um, balancing the, the incredulity, like, balancing-
11. 52:05 – 1:32:40

    Critics vs fans: genre bias, review culture, and the personal cost of visibility

    1. JRJoe Rogan52:05

       Yeah. It's, um ... Do you get people that are upset that you are doing gun porn or that you're doing these ...

    2. MGMark Greaney52:14

       Yes. Um, sometimes yes. Uh-

    3. JRJoe Rogan52:16

       Oh.

    4. MGMark Greaney52:16

       ... you know, they, just people that read the book and say, you know, "It's too violent," blah, blah, blah. And it, and it's just not what they were looking for. And so I'm always kind of scratching my head at these reviews. I'm like, "Why did you spend 300, you know, why did you read 350 pages of a book that was not what you liked?" You know, I, I might not want to read a book about butterflies. Um, I wouldn't be, like, 293 pages going, "I'm gonna write, write a scathing review about a book I don't want to read."

    5. JRJoe Rogan52:39

       That is a problem with people that write reviews on almost anything because when someone w- will enjoy something and they want to go see that something, that's their genre.

    6. MGMark Greaney52:49

       Yeah.

    7. JRJoe Rogan52:49

       That's the thing they're interested in.

    8. MGMark Greaney52:50

       Yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan52:50

       Then they're gonna write a review based on someone who actually enjoys the genre.

    10. MGMark Greaney52:54

        Yeah.

    11. JRJoe Rogan52:54

        But you get a lot of reviewers who are just reviewing things that they have no interest in at all.

    12. MGMark Greaney52:59

        Yeah. I, don't get it.

    13. JRJoe Rogan53:00

        And they write these horrible, negative reviews. And it's-

    14. MGMark Greaney53:02

        Yeah.

    15. JRJoe Rogan53:02

        ... like what, who are you trying to convince? People that think exactly like you and weren't going to like it anyway?

    16. MGMark Greaney53:07

        Yeah, yeah. Well-

    17. JRJoe Rogan53:07

        Like, it's, it's such a weird way to write things.

    18. MGMark Greaney53:11

        Jack Carr, I, Jack Carr and I had this conversation on his podcast once where he was, we were talking about the, the, the reader re- or the viewer reviews of our shows, Terminal List and Gray Man.

    19. JRJoe Rogan53:22

        Yes.

    20. MGMark Greaney53:22

        And then the, the, like, professional reviews or whatever, and-

    21. JRJoe Rogan53:25

        Yes.

    22. MGMark Greaney53:25

        And the, the people that watched it loved it overall. The reviewers hated it. But I mean, they're gonna hate stuff like that, uh-

    23. JRJoe Rogan53:33

        Of course.

    24. MGMark Greaney53:34

        I mean, to a large degree, not, not everything, you know, there's some things that, that, you know, somehow universally loved. But I, but I said to Jack, I was like, "Which would you rather have, the 23 reviewers all love it, or the, you know, 100 million, million people that watch it lo- watch it?"

    25. JRJoe Rogan53:48

        Yeah, 100%.

    26. MGMark Greaney53:49

        Yeah.

    27. JRJoe Rogan53:49

        That's a great way to look at it. You know who's a good example of that?

    28. MGMark Greaney53:52

        Who's that?

    29. JRJoe Rogan53:53

        Adam Sandler.

    30. MGMark Greaney53:55

        Oh, yeah, 'cause, yeah.

Episode duration: 2:47:46