EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,123 words- 0:00 – 1:58
Why archery shot anxiety mirrors high-stakes life pressure
- JRJoe Rogan
(drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.
- JTJoel Turner
The Joe Rogan Experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) And we're on. What's up, Joel? How are you?
- JTJoel Turner
How are you?
- JRJoe Rogan
Good to see you, brother.
- JTJoel Turner
I'm good. Thanks for having me, man.
- JRJoe Rogan
I'm very happy to talk to you, because, uh, you know, I think that w- what you teach applies to not just archery, but it applies to life, it applies to anxiety-filled situations. And you have figured out this one element of archery that so many people can't seem to put their finger on-
- JTJoel Turner
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... and it's the anxiety of the shot.
- JTJoel Turner
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You have figured this out in a way that is so useful and it's- it's so repeatable, and it's- I think it's so important. And I think a lot of people are gonna go, "Wh- wh- what? You're gonna just talk about archery shots?"
- JTJoel Turner
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
I think this applies to life.
- JTJoel Turner
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
What you've done with your- your shot IQ system, and, so let me j- explain to people that don't understand this. Um, bow hunting and archery, especially competitive archery, it's- it oftentimes boils down to this one moment, and when you have one moment and there's so much anxiety on this one moment, people have a tendency to panic and to rush through things, and I think people have found that in life-
- JTJoel Turner
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... in many situations, in different occupations, in different practices and disciplines, this anticipation and anxiety of one moment where they lose their mind and they don't even remember what happened.
- JTJoel Turner
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Because they're like, "Oh!"
- JTJoel Turner
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And they can't keep their shit together.
- JTJoel Turner
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
You have figured out a way to make a system where you- you have very clear, defined guidelines that people can follow where they could stay in the moment and not lose their fucking mind-
- JTJoel Turner
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... at this moment of anticipation.
- JTJoel Turner
Right.
- 1:58 – 6:17
Bodie Turner’s dominance: perfect rounds, stage pressure, and tiny adjustments
- JRJoe Rogan
And I think the success speaks for itself. Your son, who's an incredible archer-
- JTJoel Turner
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... who's been taught by you, using your methods, is now, what is he? Number one in the world?
- JTJoel Turner
Well, I-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well-
- JTJoel Turner
The ranking system is weird, but he's won every major indoor archery event that there is. He won-
- JRJoe Rogan
And he's 15?
- JTJoel Turner
Well, he just turned 16, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, a boy's old.
- JTJoel Turner
So he's- he's driving now-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JTJoel Turner
... so that's scary as hell, but-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JTJoel Turner
So, uh, he won Vegas at- at 15, just, I mean, he turned 15 the day before, and then he wins Vegas, which is the biggest indoor archery shoot there is.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's huge.
- JTJoel Turner
Yeah. And then just to watch him up there is just amazing. To know that- I mean, I can watch him, I'm like, "Oh, yeah. This is going in." Right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JTJoel Turner
Just you can see it in their eye, and- and I see this in- in a lot of people that they don't have that look, you know? It's- they have-
- JRJoe Rogan
Focused.
- JTJoel Turner
... they have that an- anxiety, that look, just like, "Oh, what's happening?"
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- JTJoel Turner
And they're just letting things happen. And with Bodie, he's just like, "This is going in." It was so funny, 'cause he just won Lancaster, the Lancaster Classic, which is another huge indoor archery shoot, and when you shoot Lancaster, you have to- you're in the practice range, and he came in first seed because he shot the second ever ... well, there's been, uh, I think five people now in history that have shot a ... well, four people that have shot a .660 qualification round, which is-
- JRJoe Rogan
Now, let's explain what that means.
- JTJoel Turner
That is- that is hitting a penny every time, 60 arrows in a row.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which is insane.
- JTJoel Turner
At 20- at 20 yards.
- JRJoe Rogan
The amount of concentration-
- JTJoel Turner
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... involved in that, and a lot of people are like, "20 yards is not that far." Listen.
- JTJoel Turner
It's a penny. (laughs)
- 6:17 – 9:33
Joel’s early failures: recoil fear, trigger jerking, and target panic beginnings
- JRJoe Rogan
Tell everybody your background. How did you get into this? Like, tell your background with SWAT and all that.
- JTJoel Turner
So I started shooting at a really young age, but I was, I was obsessed with shooting. Like, when we ... I have two older brothers, and we, when we turned nine years old, my dad would buy us a BB gun. And my two older brothers didn't shoot them that much. I broke both of their BB guns, I shot them so much. So when I turned nine, I got a Daisy 880 Powerline. By God, that is some highfalutin stuff, right, for me.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) .
- JTJoel Turner
So I get this 880 Powerline. I shot it so much I broke it. Air rifles, 22 long rifles, I was, I was good, right? You put me on a center fire rifle like my dad did when I was five years old, shooting a 30-30, I was worthless. As soon as the, soon as you'd get your sight on, man, I would just hammer the crap out of that trigger. And that followed me through adolescence, early teens, 20s, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
So we should explain that. Hammering is like you're-
- JTJoel Turner
I'm, you're-
- JRJoe Rogan
You're jerking the trigger.
- JTJoel Turner
You're jerking the trigger, which ...
- JRJoe Rogan
Anx- anxiety.
- JTJoel Turner
Yeah. So now I know that that's the core problem in shooting, right? Your mind will not allow you to cause your body impact as a surprise. And it took me a lifetime to figure out what the true problem was. And that's where everybody's kinda skipped around it. So there I am at five years old, shooting this 30-30. Oh, I pressed the trigger perfectly, one time. And as soon as I felt that recoil the second time, when I racked that, that lever and I shot it the second time, I guarantee you I closed my eyes, clinched my body as I pressed the trigger. It all gets-
- JRJoe Rogan
So you were worried about the recoil.
- JTJoel Turner
Yeah, it all gets linked together.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JTJoel Turner
It's smoke, fire, noise, all kinds of negative things that happen, right? And I was experiencing the same thing in archery. I started shooting a bow when I was seven. And by the age of eight, I'm locked completely off a target, meaning I would draw the bow back and the target's level with me and I'm aiming at the floor, right? And then you would jump that thing up, as we see many archers do now. They're locked off target, they jump up and let it, let the string go at the same time. It all gets linked together so that your body can brace you for impact.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JTJoel Turner
And people don't see archery as an explosion. They see it as, "Well, it's just shooting a bow," right? But shot anticipation, or shot control, is a lot easier with a firearm because the explosion happens in the apparatus. It imparts recoil on you, but it's not actually ... The explosion is in the apparatus. Whereas in archery, the explosion is in your body, right? It's that sudden release of energy that happens. So a- shot anticipation with archery is a hundredfold what it is with a firearm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's also the amount of movement changes so much-
- JTJoel Turner
Oh, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... where the arrow goes-
- JTJoel Turner
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... because it's not going as fast-
- JTJoel Turner
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and it's subject to all your little-
- JTJoel Turner
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... tweaks and-
- JTJoel Turner
All the little nuances of it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JTJoel Turner
So all those motor programs that get linked to that punching of the trigger, that's what deviates our point of impact. So there I was at eight years old, just loving archery, watching that arrow fly, but not good at it, right? And then, so then I started bow hunting at 14 years old and not doing well. I mean, I was locked off target on these critters and missing and missing and missing. It took me 13 years to kill a bull elk with my bow because I couldn't handle it. I just would lose my shit completely.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like many, many, many people.
- 9:33 – 12:23
From law enforcement to SWAT: discovering controllable focus under stress
- JTJoel Turner
Oh, it was horrible. So that was my background. So I've got this sounding board of bow hunting, where I'm failing, I've got rifle hunting, where I'm failing, and then I decide to become a cop, right? Well, before I was a cop I was a, a wildlife specialist for USDA Wildlife Services, where I got to shoot stuff every day, right? Animal damage control, all that stuff. And, uh, I got to shoot stuff every day with an air rifle, so I was, I was good, right? And shotgun shooting, good at that, right? But when it came to precision rifle stuff, again, I was worthless. I was not your guy to, to be on a coyote contract when you're having to shoot coyotes in the middle of a city with a suppressed 243, right? It just wouldn't work out for me (laughs) 'cause as soon as I would get on that thing, my only thought process was, "It's gonna get away. It's gonna get away."
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- JTJoel Turner
So that would-
- JRJoe Rogan
Anxiety.
- JTJoel Turner
... cause that, that anxiety, that rush, and you would rush the shot. So there I was, and then I decided to become a cop. My older brother was a cop, my mom was in law enforcement, so I decided to be a cop. And at the range, I knew that, you know, when I turned 21, first thing I did was bought my concealed weapons permit in Washington, bought a pistol. And for some reason, that pistol always shot low and left. I'm like, "What is the deal with these sights, right? It's always shooting low and left."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) .
- JTJoel Turner
So I get in the academy and I bought a different pistol. I bought a 1911 that's got a much shorter trigger stroke on it. And I basically fixed a mental problem with mechanical means at that point, 'cause I got through the academy starting to realize what I needed to do to, to control a shot. But with that pistol, it was easy. And my buddy was so bad in the academy with his Glock that he had to then ... He bought my pistol from me, 'cause that's the only thing that got him through the academy was buying my pistol from me. I bought another one, so we both fixed our mental problem with mechanical means. And I ended up taking first, uh, taking first in firearms in my academy class not knowing how I did it. But I, that's where I, I started to feel this love for instruction, 'cause I got to help some people with it. And so things progressed, uh, two years in law enforcement, then I got, uh, firearms instructor, and, 'cause I had this interest in firearms and kinda figuring things out. And then I got on the SWAT team same time, 2003. So, uh, that's, you know, I spent 18-plus years on the SWAT team and ended up being the sniper team leader and then eventually the team leader for the team. But-It was becoming the lead firearms instructor for Washington State that got me the experimentation that I needed. Because I was starting to figure out, how do I get somebody through a shot? How do I get a police officer to concentrate on a trigger press when it's the only thing that's gonna save them
- 12:23 – 17:11
The “Nervous Nelly” breakthrough: cadence, language, and surprise shots
- JTJoel Turner
or somebody else? And it, it came to me one day, it was just totally by accident, 'cause I'd heard all the normal stuff in firearms instruction: front sight, front sight, front sight. You know, you stare at your front sight hard enough and things are just gonna work out for you. Well, that just doesn't happen, 'cause in most gunfights, most people will tell you they never even see their sights. So, I had this recruit that we call (laughs) ... We had one in every class, we call him Nervous Nelly. Right? I mean, this guy was just super anxious. And you can tell the different personalities that people have, just when they- when you put a gun in their hand, they're nervous. And this cat, all his movements were super fast and he was just a jittery dude, right? Nervous Nelly. And he's shooting 20 yards, and he's bouncing bullets off the floor at 15. So his rounds are hitting the 15-yard line.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JTJoel Turner
And I'm like, "Oh my God." You know, it doesn't put a lot of (laughs) confidence in the police force. So I go over to this kid, and I call him a kid. He was probably, I don't know, f- eight years younger than me or whatever, and, and I get on the driver's side of his pistol, I'm looking at his finger, I'm like, "Okay. I want you to press the trigger just to the pressure wall. Don't make it go off." He's like, "Okay. Yes, sir." And as soon as I got done with that instruction, his finger moved, right, to the pressure wall. I'm like, "Okay. Start pressing the trigger, but don't make the gun go off." And so as soon as I saw his finger move, I'm- start talking to him, "All right, keep pressing, keep pressing, keep pressing, keep pressing." And as I'm watching his finger, I'm looking at this and I'm like, "It's moving at the same rate I'm talking." And he's working through it, and all of a sudden, bow, it goes off to the surprise, right through the 10 ring in the target. And he's like, "Sir, that scared the crap out of me." I'm like, "Yeah. It's supposed to." So then the next time, he shoots again, and I changed my cadence of speech, which changed his cadence of movement, and that's when the light bulb went off for me. I'm like, "Okay. We gotta figure this out." I had complete control of this kid's mind at this time. And, but I had to get him to do that. And that's where this whole thing started into neurolinguistic programming and, and all the sciences that we went down the rabbit holes on to really figure this stuff out.
- JRJoe Rogan
And so, what did you learn from neurolinguist- linguistic programming-
- JTJoel Turner
So-
- JRJoe Rogan
... that applied here?
- JTJoel Turner
When I, when I fr- 'cause I didn't know what that was.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JTJoel Turner
Right? I'm just a simple guy, right? I, I d-
- JRJoe Rogan
Jim, can we get coffee in here? Oh, yeah.
- JTJoel Turner
I, I didn't know what that, what that was, and so (sighs) I have lots of very smart friends (laughs) . And so, uh, one of the, one of the doctors that was on a sniper crew for a neighboring agency, he was their ER doc, 'cause most SWAT teams have an ER doc that's assigned to the team. And so, I'm training him in some of this stuff, and he's like, "Oh, that's neurolinguistic programming." I'm like, "Whew, standby, doc. That's a big word," right? "I gotta know what that is." So, I started looking into that, and it was mostly like, Tony Robbins self-help, get yourself out of addiction, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JTJoel Turner
Get yourself out of the gutter type stuff. But what I took it as is, it was the route to concentration. 'Cause what you say is what you think, and I needed people to think and to concentrate on a specific movement.
- JRJoe Rogan
Thank you. (laughs)
- JTJoel Turner
And when you, the- what I'm, what I'm asking people to do is just shy of impossible. Like, you're- I'm asking you to override your own central nervous system with concentration. That is just shy of impossible, but it's not impossible if you know exactly how to do it. But when I ask that question, of- all the people that I train, it's like, "How do you concentrate?" And nobody has the answer. They're all, they tell me, "Well, you have to focus. You have to block things out. You have to do this, do that." But-
- JRJoe Rogan
How? Right.
- JTJoel Turner
... they never tell me how to do it. I'm like, "Yes, that, that is concentration for you, but how do you do it? Especially, how do you do it when somebody's trying to kill you?" Right? How do you get that singular-minded? And that was the big question. So, that's what I took from neurolinguistic programming. And so I wrote, I wrote what is called The Mental Mechanics: An Instructor's Guide, and it had kind of the sequence of, of drills and how to get somebody's mind into this. And there was this, there was a guy at the academy that, we did not like each other. And for some reason, he, he was a kinesthesiologist or almost. He was a big martial arts guy, knew movements, knew how to train movements, and, and he came to me one day when he became the lead of the- he became the head of the firearms program, and he came to me one day and said, "What you're doing works, but it's not right." I'm like, "Okay. I need to know what's, I need to know what's right then." So he goes, "You gotta take my class." I'm like, "Okay. Sign me
- 17:11 – 24:56
Open-loop vs. closed-loop control: why practice can make you worse
- JTJoel Turner
up." (laughs) Right? So in that class is where I learned about open and closed loop control systems. I learned about visual proprioception, how you actually aim and how you don't have to put consciousness into an aim. And-
- JRJoe Rogan
Let's explain open and c- and closed-
- JTJoel Turner
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... loop systems.
- JTJoel Turner
So open and closed loop, so open loop is where, that's any- it's a, it's a control system in your mind that governs your movements. And open loop is where your mind wants to go because it's efficient, it's smooth, it's automatic, right? So when you first learn a movement, you may learn it in steps and it's very choppy and you have to think about each specific motor program that you're doing, but then you eventually put that into a package through practice, right? So we go from the cognitive stage of learning to practice stage with the goal of becoming automatic. And that's where people d- they do the same thing with shooting, but in shooting, the only thing you're getting more efficient at is bracing you for recoil.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JTJoel Turner
You're not getting more accurate. I mean, there's, there's 80-year-old dudes that come to my class that have been doing it this way for 70 years, and they just get worse. Right? Archery's one of the onl- shooting is one of the only things the more you do it, the worse you get. Especially in archery.
- JRJoe Rogan
If you're doing it wrong.
- JTJoel Turner
Yeah. It, the, if you just follow the natural path of the human mind in learning, you're gonna get worse, because you're gonna get more efficient. Your subconscious thinks you're getting better, because you're getting better at bracing for impact. That's what it's built for. But consciously, we know, like, "Uh, I didn't control that one." And then it's like, "Well, I controlled about 50% of them." Right? And then it just gets worse and worse. So your mind open loop means your brain ... Now, Huberman's gonna kill me for this, because this is so simplistic, right? (laughs) And he, I'm sure he gets way into this. But open loop is your brain sends a motor program to the effector. The effector is just the muscle group that receives it. So in that, the muscle gr- or the, the motor program's usually too fast for you to gain feedback in it. Like shooting a basketball, swinging a golf club, right? Those are all movements that, that have to be smooth to keep the totality of the movement going. But in shooting, if you use open loop for the trigger, it's too fast and you're not doing anything to mitigate all the other muscle contractions that are coming in to brace you for impact, right? So it's the flinch, it's all that stuff that gets put in there. And so that's open loop. That's where your mind wants to go. It's the default. If you don't think about something, you're going open loop. Like when people black out and stuff, they go super efficient on the trigger. They don't remember what happened 'cause it was a negative event, and it was all subconsciously driven. Now, closed loop is a movement that's slow enough you could stop it anywhere within it. Right? There's a certain speed at which you can gain the feedback that you need to, say like in the signature test or if you're pressing a trigger, right? Or if you're working your hinge, you're working that thing slow enough and you're concentrating on the movement and you're working it slow enough, you could stop it anywhere within it. And that just doesn't happen. It has to be decided upon, right? And that's the big kicker. That's where people try to jump over the problem, because you have to decide. If you're doing a movement that's gonna cause an explosion and you're trying to do it slow enough you could stop it, that will never just find you. You have to concentrate on that movement. So you gotta know, how do you concentrate, right? Well, you gotta talk yourself through it. And you gotta know what decisions you need to make at what moments in the shot, because there are moments in the shot when autopilot is gonna try to take it, right? And that's what happened to me for 13 years in my bowhunting career. From 14 to 27, I was going completely automatic, right? I was so engulfed in trying to, to kill that critter or aiming good or whatever it may be. My mind was never in the movement that it needed to be. So that's the difference between open and closed loop. And when that, when that guy told me, "What you're doing works, but it's not right," he taught me about open and closed loop control systems. But what he never taught me and what I noticed from all the textbooks and all the stuff that we did, it had never really been put into shooting. It had never truly been put into shooting, 'cause so he kept asking me, "What's this decision you keep talking about? What's this decision?" I said, "Well, you have to decide to go closed loop. It's not just gonna happen." He's like, "I don't think so." I'm like, "Well, let's go to the range." Right? So we go to the range and he d- the same thing that everybody else did. He couldn't get himself to go closed loop, 'cause he just kept trying to do it.
- JRJoe Rogan
And he understood this.
- JTJoel Turner
He understood it, but he didn't understand the mental portion of it. So 'cause everything that he'd ever taught was basically closed loop to start with, 'cause it was always martial arts movements.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- JTJoel Turner
It was always closed loop to start, and then you move into open loop and that's the good stuff, right? Whereas in shooting, that's, that's why we use shooting for such concentration practice, 'cause there's nothing like it. There's really nothing like it.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's, I'm glad you brought up martial arts, 'cause martial arts is closed loop when you're learning it.
- JTJoel Turner
Yeah, absolutely.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then open loop in application.
- JTJoel Turner
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
So you learn all these movements and then in the fight, things just happen.
- JTJoel Turner
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
You just throw the kick and you don't even know what's happening-
- JTJoel Turner
Right. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... and it's happening, and you're, you're s- you're st- staying in this sort of, like, empty zen mind space-
- JTJoel Turner
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
... where you're just trying to, like, utilize the techniques and know you know what to do.
- JTJoel Turner
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Your body's trained and then you react and you move accordingly.
- JTJoel Turner
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
But the problem with that is, like, that is the worst mindset possible for bowhunting.
- JTJoel Turner
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which is crazy.
- 24:56 – 39:41
Blueprinting the perfect shot: decisions, self-talk, and the four questions
- JTJoel Turner
Yeah. And, and the problem is, like with me, on this journey, 2008, I shot the first controlled shot I, I'd really ever shot on a game animal. And, but I didn't blueprint it, and that's the problem.
- JRJoe Rogan
With how so? What do you mean?
- JTJoel Turner
People have success, like they, they won the game with that shot, but they don't blueprint how they did it, so they can't possibly repeat it. It's a mystery.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- JTJoel Turner
Right? So in 2008, I shot this big old hog and I shot him like, "Oh, yay me." I finally controlled myself on a shot, but I never blueprinted it. So 2009 comes along, I shot a couple bulls in 2009, one in New Mexico, one in Arizona. Punched the crap outta the trigger on both those bulls. But-
- JRJoe Rogan
Just got lucky.
- JTJoel Turner
But I was successful, right? 2010 comes along, I shot my first controlled shot on an elk with my longbow. 41 yards with my longbow. It was the most gorgeous arrow flight. I mean, it was perfect, but I never blueprinted it. It was just another "yay me" moment, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- JTJoel Turner
So 2011, '12, '13 and '14 come along, and I killed a bunch of critters in those, in that timeframe, but I wasn't controlling my shot still. But I was at least present enough to be aiming and all those things, but I still wasn't getting through my shot, essentially punching the trigger. So December 14th, 2014 was my big, that was, I shot a big black-tailed buck and I didn't control my shot. I shot him at eight yards, shot him right in the heart, and it was raining and it was right before dark, and I'm like, I was happy that I, that I shot the buck good, but I was pissed 'cause I didn't control my shot again. And realized that by this time, I'd been a SWAT sniper since 2003, right? Scared to death. Scared to death on how it was gonna go because although that time between 2003 and 2014, thank God I didn't get in any tactical situations where I had to actually press a trigger, because it would've been just like a coyote. I guarantee you it would've been just like a coyote. And that's where a lot of cops are these days. They don't know what's coming and they don't know how to control themselves at this moment of truth. So I've got this sounding board of bow hunting where I'm still, uh, some are good, some are not good. It's still a mystery to me because I never blueprinted it, right? So December 14th, 2014, I shot that buck and I was pissed and I sat in my tree stand and now it's dark and it's raining. I'm like, "I gotta figure this out." Right? Because it's just a ticking time bomb in the tactical world for me to be in a, in a tactical situation. So I sat there in that tree stand like, "What was it about that shot in 2008? And what was it about that shot in 2010 when I actually controlled myself?" And I was so conscious in those two shots that I'm like, "It was the decisions." It was the decisions that I made, 'cause I remember before, I remember on the hog in 2008, I drew back and I had the same anxiety and all the craziness going on and it was the same feeling of weakness that I wasn't gonna perform well, but I was at full draw. Now I'm locked off target, which hadn't happened in a long time. But I was so conscious in that shot for some reason, I don't know if I was pissed off or what it was, but I went, "I ain't doing this again." And I let that shot down. And the next time I drew my bow back, I'm like, "I'm shooting this shot perfectly or I'm not shooting it at all." And that was the first time that I'd ever, it ever meant more to me to stay in the shot process than to actually kill the critter. And that was a huge thing for me. But I n- again, I never blueprinted it. And then I remember on that hog, so the second time I drew my bow back, and before I drew my bow back I said, "I'm shooting this shot perfectly or I'm not shooting it at all." And I started to draw my bow back and as I drew my bow back, I felt it slipping again, right? And I said, "Nah, I'm gonna do this right." That was another decision that I made, which upped my presence. Didn't know it at the time, but that upped my presence. So I got to full draw. Now I'm aimed exactly where I need to aim. All I gotta do is let the arrow go. It's aimed perfectly. All I gotta do is let the arrow go. But because I'd upped my presence so much, I remembered, "Oh yeah, stupid. You gotta pull through the clicker." Right? Had a little clicker device on my, on my longbow which, when you expand through that it clicks, mechanoreceptive trigger, all that stuff. So I'm at full draw. "Here I go." That was the first time I'd ever said "Here I go" in a shot. I said, "Here I go." And that reminded me, "Oh yeah. I'm supposed to talk myself through this." Right? This is 2008 so I was starting to figure some stuff out in the firearms world. Keep pulling, keep pulling, keep pulling, keep pulling. Click, pum, I shot that shot, it was perfect. But again, like I said, never blueprinted it. 2010 comes along, same thing. I'm behind this screen of pines. There was a hole, this bull comes down waterhole, turns broadside, looks the other way. My buddy gives me numbers, he says, "41." I'm like, "At 41, I know I gotta put my point 18 inches over that bull's back."And so I remember, I'm on my knees, I'm like, (sighs) "I'm shooting this shot perfectly or I ain't gonna shoot it at all." Up- my presence made that decision, what we call the original decision. Started drawing my bow back, felt it slipping again, right? And you know that feeling where it starts to go, you're like, "Nah."
- JRJoe Rogan
Anxiety.
- JTJoel Turner
I'm like, "Nah. I'm gonna do this right." And I got the full draw, I put that point 18 inches over his back. Here I go. Keep pulling, keep pulling, keep pulling. Click. Poom. I shot that arrow. I can see it to this day. It was just gorgeous. I mean, I X-ringed him at 41 yards with my longbow. It was so cool. But again, I didn't blueprint it. So that, that ... an- sitting in that tree stand in, in December of 2014, that's when I said, "I gotta figure this out." And that's when I ... that's what I figured out, was the decisions. I mapped the decisions it took to keep myself present so that I could concentrate. And that day, I said, "I'm never doing it again. I'm never shooting another uncontrolled shot on a critter or a whatever it was." You know, I'm still a cop at that point and I'm like, "I'm gonna do it right, no matter what. No matter what."
- JRJoe Rogan
And so, what was the process of figuring out a repeatable blueprint?
- JTJoel Turner
Okay. The blueprint was ... So I started thinking about this so that I could actually blueprint these things and I'm like, "Okay, what is it?" The blueprint is this. It's four questions. So when you shoot that perfect shot, question number one, "What was I thinking about after here I go?" 'Cause all the stuff up to here I go is pretty much the set-up of the shot. You've got your aim, you've got tensions, maybe you roll to the click in your hinge. What am I thinking about after here I go? And what you need to be thinking about is nothing other than that shot activation movement. What is the movement that's gonna cause this explosion? Where do I need to put my concentration? It's gotta be in nothing other than the movement, but you'll find in archery and shooting, most shooting sports, people leave their thought process in the aim where it does you no good. Right? So question number one, "What was I thinking about after here I go?" Question number two, "What was I saying after here I go?" What words or sounds did you use to guide your concentration? So you now know what you need to be thinking, you know exactly what you need to be saying or what sound you're using, if it's a hum or, or a audible exhale or whatever it may be. Question number three, "Could I have stopped it?" Were you so keenly concentrated on your shot activation movement that you could've stopped it anywhere within it? And if you can say yes to that, that's a big ask, right? But if you can say, "Yes, I could've stopped it," that means that you were truly in a closed-loop control system. And the only way to get into that is by having enough determination to make a decision so that you're present, so that you can concentrate. So those are the fundamentals of precision shooting. Right? So what am I thinking after here I go? What am I saying after here I go? Could I have stopped it? And finally, what decisions did I make to get myself in the process for this one shot? 'Cause it all only lasts for one shot, and then your mind completely resets it. It's like, "I didn't like that. You surprised me with an explosion. (laughs) Got me this time. Not happening again." So you have to go through the same process over and over and over. And the decisions get easier to make, but they still have to be made.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, this is why I think this is important and this applies to so many things in life, 'cause so many movements and things and actions in life are ... they're, they're sort of powered by anxiety.
- JTJoel Turner
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
They're powered by, like, "Yuh."
- JTJoel Turner
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, you just, like, you spaz out because you're not in the moment. You're just r- r- reacting.
- JTJoel Turner
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whereas what you're doing and what you're teaching with archery and what I've learned from you is that if I say to myself while I'm shooting, if I'm talking to myself and I go through this whole list, center the bubble, center the sight.
- JTJoel Turner
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, relax the shoulder, draw, pull, pull, pull, release. And when it releases, I'm in control of the whole thing.
- JTJoel Turner
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
From top ... And there's just all these l- like ... these anxiety-driven thoughts that just, "Get it out!"
- JTJoel Turner
Right. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
"Go! Just do this. He's gonna get away."
- JTJoel Turner
Yeah. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
"Something's gonna happen. You're gonna miss."
- JTJoel Turner
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
But if you stay in your own thought process-
- 39:41 – 46:45
Joe’s nilgai hunt stress test: tech failure, heavy draw weight, and staying in process
- JRJoe Rogan
I had, uh, a moment in, um, South Texas recently-
- JTJoel Turner
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... where I was hunting nilgai.
- JTJoel Turner
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And, uh, nilgai are a particularly, uh, fascinating animal, 'cause they evolved around tigers.
- JTJoel Turner
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
And-
- JTJoel Turner
They're jumpy as hell. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
I've never seen an animal move that fast.
- JTJoel Turner
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I've never seen an animal so jumpy, other than axis deer-
- JTJoel Turner
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... which also evolved around tigers.
- JTJoel Turner
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, so, uh, I have this, um, this bow that has set up a Garmin sight.
- JTJoel Turner
Uh-huh.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which I love.
- JTJoel Turner
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
And what a Garmin sight is, it's a range finding bow sight.
- JTJoel Turner
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
That uses a dot. So instead of having a pin... So just explain it to people at home. The way you sight an archery bow, a bow for bowhunting, a bow for archery is, there's, uh, a program that you run the arrow weight through, the speed of the arrow. You shoot your arrow through a chronograph. The weight of the arrow, the draw length, and all these different componers- components go into a, a program called Archery Advantage.
- JTJoel Turner
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And that program will give you a sight tape. You l- put that sight tape on your bow, and it's calculated to the weight of the arrow, the speed of the arrow, and it shows how much drop the arrow's going to, uh, have-
- JTJoel Turner
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... over 20 yards, 40 yards, 50 yards, and it'll show you exactly where that pin has to be.
- JTJoel Turner
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
So you would have to range with a laser range finder. You get your number. "Oh, it's 56 yards away." And then you dial it perfectly to 56 yards, and that will calculate exactly where that arrow is going to be when it gets to 56 yards. What I love about this Garmin sight is at full draw, you just press a button.
- JTJoel Turner
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And it ranges, and then it gives you a pin. Well, I'm at full draw on this nilgai, and I've had a couple of problems with this, this bow sight-
- JTJoel Turner
Uh-huh.
- 46:45 – 52:16
Training Bodie from toddlerhood: mechanical aids, building process, and leaving the aim
- JTJoel Turner
It was the per- it was the perfect storm. And I, you know, Bodie started shooting a bow at ten-and-a-half-months-old.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JTJoel Turner
I mean, I had... At two weeks old, I had him in a front pack and, you know, shooting. He's seen thousands of arrows go down range. I had a bow in his crib and at ten-and-a-half-months, he finally picks that thing up upside down, right? He would prop himself up against the couch, draw back, fall over, and then, you know, shoot his little string off. But then he... At two-and-a-half he's shooting balloons, flying balloons with his bow in the kitchen, suction cup arrows. At three years old, I buy him his first compound and index finger trigger at three years old and he's punching the crap out of that thing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Of course.
- JTJoel Turner
At three years old, that's what his, that's all his mind knows-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JTJoel Turner
... is to brace for impact, right? So at three, I bought him a tension-activated release. And what that did... Just like me in the academy, I fixed a mental problem with mechanical means. So at that age, you know, what does a three-year-old have for determination decision-making skills? Nothing, right? So even up into e- early teens, these kids today don't have enough determination to override their own central nervous system. So you put them in a tension-activated release that makes decisions for them. Push the safety in, draw the bow back, and aim it. Safety's still on. That's the calming effect. Safety's still on, weapon's not even hot yet. They get their aim done and then they separate from that by letting go of the trigger or letting go of the safety. And then if they don't pull, their bow's not going off. So it makes the decision for them. So from about three years old to about nine years old, that's what Bodie shot, was a tension-activated release until I saw it in him that that's all he knew and that he could run anything, right? And he's heard me do this speech in so many times that I didn't sit Bodie down and go, "Okay, boy, this is how we're doing it."... he just heard it so many times, and me teaching other people, and me, you know, showing him, like, "We don't do that." (laughs) To the point where he would go to the range, little tiny kid, right? And he'd look up at somebody, "Ooh, you punched that one." (laughs) Like, "Boy, that guy's way bigger than your old man, so let's just-"
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JTJoel Turner
"... hear, hear on that," right?
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JTJoel Turner
So, (laughs) but it was so funny. But now, it's just you know what's happening in Bodhi's mind, and you can see it in his eyes. When you see that squint, you know the concentration is there. And the only advice that I ever give him is keep it moving, because I know that if he keeps his release moving, I know that his conscious mind is in his release, and it's not in the aim. S- People, m- they are so infatuated with the aim, it's just, it's crazy. They all try to control something that they have no control over. Once you put the pin on there, it's done. Just watch it to keep it, right? Watch the picture. And people are like, "Do I concentrate on the pin, or do I concentrate on the, on the, you know, the target?" I'm like, "You don't concentrate on either one of those. You just watch the picture." Make it so they're both fairly in focus. They're on different focal planes, so they're not both gonna be in focus, but they are so infatuated with it. That's why they weight their bow up so much.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JTJoel Turner
They can't step away from it. And certain personalities have a difficult time stepping away from the aim. They wanna control that. You can't control it. No matter which way it moves, its next movement's always back to the middle. So let it do its thing, and don't slow it down too much.
- JRJoe Rogan
So you know where you wanna hit-
- JTJoel Turner
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and just concentrate on that spot.
- JTJoel Turner
Just watch it. Don't concentrate on it. If you put mental concentration into it, like if you're thinking about it, like, "Oh, gotta, gotta get it right now," it's never gonna happen because you're gonna go open loop on the trigger. If your thought process is in your aim, you will go open loop on the trigger. You will punch the trigger every single time.
- JRJoe Rogan
The weird thing about it is it's so counterintuitive to not worry about your pin moving around-
- JTJoel Turner
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... 'cause your pin is going to move.
- JTJoel Turner
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's impossible to be perfectly still-
- JTJoel Turner
Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
... when you're holding a bow and you're drawing back. It's like there's going to be a minimal amount of movement, no matter what. But your subconscious mind will always bring that pin back to where you want it to go, and you just have to trust in that process. And that is a mind fuck for people.
- JTJoel Turner
Oh, yeah. (laughs) Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Because you're like, "No, no, no. I gotta... Uh, when the pin gets there, that's when I'm gonna release it."
- JTJoel Turner
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
But you can't do that.
- JTJoel Turner
It's never... It's not actually there anymore, though. What-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 52:16 – 1:04:27
Two elite styles: “catching the middle” with heavy bows vs. closed-loop surprise breaks
- JRJoe Rogan
But some guys do catch it.
- JTJoel Turner
They do, and some of-
- JRJoe Rogan
This is what's weird, right?
- JTJoel Turner
S-
- JRJoe Rogan
There's some guys like Tim Gillingham-
- JTJoel Turner
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and Kyle Douglas-
- JTJoel Turner
Yep, yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
... who are, like, elite, world-class archers-
- JTJoel Turner
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
... who hold their bow steady. They put the pin right there, and then they pop.
- JTJoel Turner
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
They hit it.
- JTJoel Turner
So when you, when you-
- JRJoe Rogan
Very contentious issue.
- JTJoel Turner
Yeah, so they... When you talk to those people, they are of a very specific personality. They're calm dudes, right? I talk to them all the time. They're calm dudes. They're good dudes. They're just calm. They have a specific personality. So they super weight their bow, and they're able to process that, and they get it there. But it bites them in the butt every now and again, right? So... And you can't stop that 'cause you don't know what pre-ignition movement's coming.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- JTJoel Turner
And you see that in the shoot-offs, where, you know, they shoot amazing to get to the shoot-off, but then there's one in there that they didn't catch, right, that they went open loop on. Well, they go open loop on all of them, but there's one that they got a little too efficient with it, right? And this is nothing against those guys. They're amazing shooters. That is the other way of archery, right? Super weight your bow and catch it when it's in the middle. But you have to have a super light trigger to do that so that your pre-ignition movement is minimal, right? So you don't have to have much of a movement. I mean, it's so light when you, when you actually work on their triggers. That's the other way of doing it. That's not what we do, right? I want, I want fast pin movement, and I want closed loop movement on the release. And that seems to be a higher level. Like, when you go to, when you go to Vegas now, there's a whole other level, right? You have to be on your game. It is, it is very high level now, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
So what they're doing is almost, like, obviously, they're amazing archers.
- JTJoel Turner
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
They're so good at what they do, and they have sort of decided to eliminate some of that anxiety by having a very hot trigger-
- JTJoel Turner
And a very heavy bow.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and just getting it so they know they can get that pin right there, and just touching it when it's there.
- JTJoel Turner
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which works a lot-
- JTJoel Turner
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... but not always.
- JTJoel Turner
Not always.
- JRJoe Rogan
Not always.
- JTJoel Turner
Yes.
- 1:04:27 – 1:23:13
Hostage rescue under 11 feet: the real-world origin story of Shot IQ
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, tell the story, if you don't mind, uh, the, the, the story you told me about the guy who was methed out.
- JTJoel Turner
Yeah. So, got a SWAT callout of a, of a hostage rescue. There was, um, an unarmed barricaded subject with a hostage. And you never know, that's all the information you get on the callout, right? So, we go there. Um, I get there and it was weird because on the brief, I walked up to the house and the, the SWAT commander briefed me at the, at the head of the garage there, and it was light-colored concrete. It's dark. You know, we didn't have a bunch of lights on 'cause the operation is active in that house right there, but the room was in kind of the back of the house. And I, I remember he's talking to me, telling me the situation, and I'm looking on the ground and I'm like, "What is all that stuff on the ground," right? And I'm looking at these dark patches on the ground. So I turn my flashlight on and it's blood. There's blood all over the place on this, on the walkway down from the garage. And I'm like, "What is up with that?" And he's like, "Well, this guy stabbed his cousin and then took his own daughter hostage, used her as a human shield with a knife to her." So, that's how SWAT got called and all this stuff. So, I get there and I gotta be... I'm up on a ladder over a wood fence and we're about... I'm only like 15 yards from the, from the window, but we can't see anything in the window. And the negotiator's on the phone with this guy and he's not really making a lot of sense. He wants to talk to his girlfriend, blah, blah, blah. He's got the... his daughter in there with him. And we can hear her through the wall, right? We can hear her, sometimes she's screaming, sometimes she's crying, sometimes she's laughing. So we don't know what is going on in there, right? And it go, this goes on for... The negotiators are on the phone with him for a while. And then finally the decision's made, like, we have to get in there 'cause it's, it's starting to go south in negotiations. And we lost comms with the guy and-
- JRJoe Rogan
So, you're worried he's gonna stab his daughter?
- JTJoel Turner
Yeah. Well, we don't... I mean, he's already done that to his cousin, right? I mean, stabbed him in the face, in the legs, in the arms, big KA-BAR knife. It was, it was not a good situation. So, yeah, and he's already used her as a human shield, right? When the, when the cops... What happened is there was... a big fight went on. The cops got in, got everybody out. Then they realized, the daughter was hiding behind a couch.
- JRJoe Rogan
(sighs)
- JTJoel Turner
So, they go back in. They re-stack up, they go back in. Now, he's got the daughter around the waist, using her as a human shield, knife to her, and he kicks the door shut on the bedroom. That's what starts the SWAT call-out. (smacks lips) So, (sighs) we're loo- I'm looking in this window, it's got blinds on it. You know, negotiation's going south, we lose comms with the guy. So finally, we're like, "We gotta get comms with this dude, so we're gonna put a throw phone in." So we put a throw phone... A throw phone's like a, it's like a box. It's got a phone in it so you can, the negotiators can talk to the dude. And so, we put that in there. My buddy rips the blinds out. When we rip the blinds out, there's the dude again. I can't see him, 'cause I'm, I'm, I can only see like half the room. And he's on the right... He's in the right corner of the room, and I'm over, over this fence. (smacks lips) And the window guys are yelling at him to drop the girl, drop the knife. You know, they're getting all the commands. And he's kinda working his way along the wall. He's got her around the waist, so he, he would hold her up, up above, you know? So, they can't get a shot. And so he's moving his way across the wall, and then he moves his way across this wall and ends up in this corner, sits down and pulls her up over the top of him. And so the window's on the same wall as this corner, and I can't see any of this stuff. I'm the sniper team leader, so... (sighs) I work my way around, (sighs) and I get to this gate. I'm like... They called fire priority to the window team, and I'm like, "I'm on the wrong team." (laughs) Right? So, 'cause he's got... There's like six dudes at the window, and nobody's shooting. I'm like, "Why in the F are these guys not shooting?" 'Cause I couldn't see what they saw, but it's just what's going through my head. (smacks lips) So I, I get off the ladder. I run to this gate, and I'm... It's weird the stuff you remember. They had this, it was like one of those latch type of locks, and it had a bolt through it with the nut all the way buried. And this bolt was like... It felt like it was this long, right? (laughs) So, I'm having to unscrew this fricking bolt, right? I'm screwing and I'm... It's the finest threads I've ever felt, right? (laughs) So I'm unscrewing this bolt. Finally, bing, I get that. I go through the gate. I come around, I come up to the window, and there was another officer that was... Had his, basically his face planted against the window so that he could, you know, could just barely see through this sliver, 'cause it was on the same wall. And, uh, so... And he wasn't shooting, and I'm like, "Why are you not shooting?" And so we actually ended up having to remove him off the ladder, 'cause he w- I don't know what he was thinking. He wasn't hearing us. We were giving him commands to get off the ladder so I could get up there and evaluate the situation. And I'm shooting a... My sniper rifle's a, uh, it was a gas-operated .308, and lowest power on the scope was four and a half. And I've told, I told the admin years ago, I'm like, "I need lower power 'cause it's gonna be close, probably, when it h- when it does happen." And sure enough, it was. So, (sighs) I get up on this ladder and I put my face against the, against the wall, and I can just see through the sliver. I can see him sitting, and I can see her on, you know, sitting in his lap basically, and he's got his arm around her. (sighs) And so... And the, the team keeps giving him commands. And I'm looking at this shot and I'm evaluating what's going on, and I'm thinking to myself, "I'm gonna have to shoot him left-handed." And I'm thinking, "The lowest power is four and a half." So I do an optic check on the wall, I'm like, "That ain't gonna work." So I'm thinking to myself, "I'm gonna have to shoot him with my pistol."
- JRJoe Rogan
When you say optic check, it's because it's moving too much-
- JTJoel Turner
No, because it's-
- JRJoe Rogan
... 'cause it's too much magnification?
- JTJoel Turner
Yeah, too much magnification. So there was a picture, something on the wall. So I, I brought my, my rifle up and looked at him like, "That ain't gonna work." It was just blurry. It's four and a half power. The shot's only 11 feet, like 12 feet, 11 feet.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh my God.
- JTJoel Turner
So, I, uh, so I'm like, "This isn't... I don't have the right tool." So I'm thinking, "I'm gonna have to shoot my handgun." And then I'm thinking, "I always preach handguns suck for killing stuff," (laughs) right? So that's what I always tell my guys. "Handguns suck for killing stuff. We don't use handguns if we don't have to." But I'm thinking, "I got the wrong tool. What am I gonna do?" So I'm thinking, "Wait a minute, stupid. There's six guys standing at the window that have the right tool," right? 'Cause they all have their assault rifles. And, uh, so I... The first guy, and it just happened to be the guy that we pulled off the ladder. I'm like, "Give me your rifle." He's like, "What?" I go, "Give me your rifle." (laughs) So we, we swap rifles, and he says, "HK416." And the reason that he said that was because on a HK416, if you flip the safety twice, you go to full auto, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JTJoel Turner
So, don't wanna do that-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JTJoel Turner
... in a precision environment, right? So I'm like, "Roger that." And so I got up, and the window's broken at this point. So when you step up to the window, you're literally walking on broken glass, okay? So I step up, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, that, the glass all pops underneath my feet. And I push the rifle. I gotta shoot left-handed, right? So I push the rifle in, and I come around the corner. Now, the rifle butt is in my bicep with somebody else's rifle, right? But I know this rifle's zeroed because it has to be zeroed, because to get through my qualification a month earlier, it had to be zeroed, right? So I knew that things were good. But I also knew that you gotta aim two and a half inches higher than where you wanna hit, 'cause that's the mechanical offset, right? Difference between bore height and sight height, two and a half inches. So, I push the rifle in the window and I come around the corner, and I look, and the little girl's looking right at me, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
(gasps)
- JTJoel Turner
'Cause all the broken glass. So she's looking right at me, and I, I bring the reticle up, and it's full pop brightness, right? I can't see anything because it's... He had it set for a white light shot. So when you, when you turn your super bright flashlight on, on your rifle, it will, it will blare out your reticle. So you gotta have your reticle turned way up. Well, he had it set for a white light shot, but I wasn't gonna do a white light shot. So I, I looked at him like, "Oh, no." So, just like you're thinking your, your thing didn't turn on when you're looking at this nil guy. I'm looking at this r- red sun in a dimly lit room-And I'm like, "This ain't gonna work." So I pulled the rifle back out of the window and now I gotta work on the buttons on this sight. Well, this isn't my rifle, right? So, now I gotta find the button that dims the, dims the red dot. So I'm messing (laughs) around with this thing and the whole team is outside and they're watching this, right? 'Cause they're gonna go on my shot. Now, this dude had the, had the door barricaded with a TV and a TV stand, all that stuff, so they were gonna have to hit the door hard. But they were gonna get a running start at it, but I moved them out 'cause they were right on th- the other side of the door, but I didn't know if my round was gonna go through the wall or not. So I moved them out. So we got them out, so they're all watching this shit show, basically, of me on this optic and they're thinking, "What are you doing, Turner?" Right? And I'm thinking, I'm like, "Shit, (laughs) I just gotta get this thing turned down," right? So, I'm messing with the buttons and I finally get to the, to the right one. So I'm like, "Okay, good." So, I go back up to the window, you know, glass breaks again, pop, pop, pop underneath my feet. I come around the corner and-
Episode duration: 2:28:09
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Transcript of episode Yc7q6vUJCbA
