Joe Rogan Experience #1961 - Peter Attia

Narrator 0:00 (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) The sign is made by this company, Roadhouse Relics. It's, uh, uh, they make, like, these beautiful neon cool-looking funky signs. And my buddy Brigham actually bought it for me, like, when I moved here. And I was like, "Wow, what a cool sign." Like, wouldn't that be nice if it was, like, in the studio behind me? And so it wasn't on purpose.

Peter Attia 0:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:30 It wasn't by design at all, and so once, uh, once he did it. But the UFO was his idea.

Peter Attia 0:36 I don't know. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:36 Yeah. It was before we even decided-

Peter Attia 0:38 Before you had The Mothership.

Joe Rogan 0:38 ... to call it The Mothership, yeah.

Peter Attia 0:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:41 But I'm easy to figure out. I mean, I got a fucking Bob Lazar UFO on the desk. I got fucking stars on the ceilings. I have a alien head in the sky. Yeah, I'm a dork.

Peter Attia 0:52 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:52 It's easy to f- I mean, it's not like, "Wow, how did he know you like UFOs?"

Peter Attia 0:57 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:58 (laughs)

Peter Attia 0:58 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:58 I'm fucking obsessed. I'm absolutely obsessed. I think it's the only thing that's gonna save us.

Peter Attia 1:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:05 So, uh, Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity, this is a big one, buddy. Look at this. Look at all this. There's a lot of information in this.

Peter Attia 1:13 Not a lot of pictures.

Joe Rogan 1:14 No pictures?

Peter Attia 1:15 No, there's some. Uh-

Joe Rogan 1:16 I need pictures. (laughs)

Peter Attia 1:17 Uh, there's some. There's some.

Joe Rogan 1:19 (laughs) No. It's, uh... Um, is it out now?

Peter Attia 1:22 Y- Out today.

Joe Rogan 1:23 Today? Beautiful. How long did it take you to write this?

Peter Attia 1:25 Six years.

Joe Rogan 1:26 Wow. Six years. And I know that's like s- That's, like, six years of actual work too.

Peter Attia 1:33 Yeah. I mean, I rewrote it twice, so-

Joe Rogan 1:35 Oof.

Peter Attia 1:35 ... there was kind of version one, version two. This is version three.

Joe Rogan 1:38 What did you change?

Peter Attia 1:39 So the first version, um, got basically thrown out by the publisher 'cause they said, "This is way too technical. There's no narrative. There's no story. It's being written to just a very sl- you know, tiny sliver of the world."

Joe Rogan 1:53 Mm.

Peter Attia 1:53 Basically, it's like the book you would write to scientists or maybe physicians.

Joe Rogan 1:58 Right.

Peter Attia 1:58 So then there was kind of version two. Um, so, so that vers- that version is completely gone. I don't think there's anything from that that made it into version two.

Joe Rogan 2:05 Wow.

Peter Attia 2:06 Version two was the skeleton of this book, but it was about 50% longer. I mean, it was a massive book. And that's the kind of version that I'd say was circa 2020. And this version is just basically better 'cause it's shorter. A lot of stuff got taken out of it that I think was not absolutely necessary. Um, and I just sharpened my thinking. I mean, I think that's what writing is. I think writing just makes you ask the question, like, "Is this act- Is this necessary?"

Joe Rogan 2:37 Mm.

Peter Attia 2:37 "And does this, does this help the reader understand something? And if not, get it out." So the, the expression is kill your babies. You gotta be able-

Joe Rogan 2:43 Yes.

Peter Attia 2:43 ... to, like, read something that you've worked really hard on and put a ton of time into and say, "I gotta nuke it."

Joe Rogan 2:50 Yeah. I think that's, uh, with everything.

Peter Attia 2:52 Yeah, totally.

Joe Rogan 2:52 With fiction, with comedy, with e- With... I'm sure it's that way with music. You just... There's a certain point in time-

Peter Attia 2:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:57 ... you have to edit things and get... With comedians, it's a real issue 'cause some comedians, like, like certain parts of a bit, and I'm like, "Look, that bit fucks your bit up. I know it gets, like, a little bit of a laugh, but it fucks it up because of this." Like, "Yeah, I kinda like doing that." I'm like, "Listen. Don't look at it like it's yours."

Peter Attia 3:15 L-

Joe Rogan 3:15 "Look at it like if you were outside of you." Like, I edit the shit out of my stuff. If you look at it like it's outside of you, like, how would you approach that? And, but that's very hard to do 'cause if you write something, I mean, six years, right? Three different versions. There's a lot of you invested in this book, so it's, like, very difficult to just, like, chop stuff up and, you know, and just fucking throw-

Peter Attia 3:41 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:41 ... it away. All the time and all the thinking and... (banging sound) But-

Peter Attia 3:46 And there was a whole appendix that never made it in, so one of the things I wanted to do was pick, like, the 20 most important drugs, hormones, supplements that I think are relevant and write "just," quote unquote, 10 pages on each.

Joe Rogan 3:59 Mm.

Peter Attia 4:00 And... Or, I didn't, I didn't go into it thinking it would be 10 pages. I thought, "I'm just going to write the essentials on these 10 things." You know, kind of rapamycin, metformin, you know, nicotinamide riboside, you know, those sorts of things. But then it turned out it was taking me, like, you know, eight to 10 pages per, and the publisher's like, "Yeah, there's no way you can have a 200-page appendix on a 450-page book."

Joe Rogan 4:21 (laughs)

Peter Attia 4:21 So, (laughs) like, all of that work, gone, just scrapped.

Joe Rogan 4:25 Oh, no.

Peter Attia 4:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:25 Have you thought about making that, like, a separate guide?

Peter Attia 4:29 Y- Yeah. It, uh, m- maybe down the line I'll just publish it on my website or something like that.

Joe Rogan 4:33 Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

Peter Attia 4:34 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:34 Well, it seems like it's very valuable information though.

Peter Attia 4:37 Yeah. I mean, it's... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:40 (laughs)

Peter Attia 4:40 I'm talk- I'm ready, I'm ready to put the book aside for a minute.

Joe Rogan 4:42 You're so burnt out. (laughs)

Peter Attia 4:44 Yeah. I'm totally...

Joe Rogan 4:45 Yeah.

Peter Attia 4:45 Although my wife says, like, the last few weeks, she's like, "It feels like the weight of the world is off your shoulders."

Joe Rogan 4:51 Mm.

Peter Attia 4:52 You know? Just-

Joe Rogan 4:52 Yeah. Well, it is... When you have something that's a big project, it's very difficult to not let it consume your entire life.

Peter Attia 5:00 Yeah. Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 5:02 You know, I was watching this clip of you on Huberman. It was really fascinating 'cause you were talking about, um, self-talk, the way you talk to-

Peter Attia 5:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:10 ... yourself and about how you adjusted that. I thought that was very, very interesting that you would, you would get so... You know, the, one of the problems with people like yourself, I guess, myself too, people that get, like, really into things, is, uh, you get obsessed. And then you get very hard on yourself if you're, if things aren't going well or if it's not going exactly the way you want it to go, the way, you know, if you're not using proper technique, if you're not doing... And then for you, you had a real problem where you were, like, very hypercritical of yourself.

Peter Attia 5:45 Yeah. Uh, and, and, I mean, it was actually out loud. I mean, I would just-

Joe Rogan 5:49 Hm.

Peter Attia 5:49 ... verbally berate myself whenever I made mistakes. Um, and, and I, I don't th- I, I don't remember not experiencing this. Right? So this is something that seemed-

Joe Rogan 6:00 Your whole life.

Peter Attia 6:00 Yeah. This is like, seven-year-old Peter was doing this too.

Joe Rogan 6:03 Wow.

Peter Attia 6:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:04 Where'd you get that from?

Peter Attia 6:06 I mean-I, I know it had to do with sort of, you know, various defects in my, you know, my life as a child and, and I, I think there was just... I think everybody responds kind of differently to... I, I, the word trauma's a bit loaded, so I wanna be kinda careful using it.

Joe Rogan 6:21 Mm-hmm.

Peter Attia 6:22 But I think we all experience trauma. We adapt- We're highly adaptable, right? So everybody adapts to trauma very well, I think, for the most part. But there are maladaptations and I think one of my, you know, issues, I think, growing up, was just a total inferiority complex, right? This feeling like not good enough. Um, you know, looked down upon constantly. You know, all that sort of stuff. Like, a lot of this is very typical immigrant stuff, by the way. Like when you're kinda the only non-white person in your middle class neighborhood, you're, you're different than everybody else. Um, look, I think that's what drew me into sports like boxing and martial arts at such a young age, right? It was kind of like the, "I'll be different. I'll be better. I'll be tougher." All those things. So somehow I just think that that, that narrative got harsher and harsher as I got older and older. And it didn't matter, you know, what sort of accolades came with it 'cause, 'cause it does produce good results sometimes. You know?

Joe Rogan 7:20 Yeah.

Peter Attia 7:20 You do get better. Um, but I think, you know, where I got to is just the, the benefits were no longer close to compensating for the costs. And I think the biggest costs were the costs, not just on me, which were there all along, but it's how it kinda spreads into your relationships with other people. Most, most importantly, your family.

Joe Rogan 7:41 Yeah, I realized at an early age that there's zero benefit in being hard on yourself because I'm, I am, no matter what, I'm a perfectionist and I get very angry at myself. There's zero benefit to self-talk that's negative.

Peter Attia 7:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:58 So I, I cut that out of my life, like very early on.

Peter Attia 8:02 And how, how did you do that?

Joe Rogan 8:04 Well, uh, (sighs) one of the... I mean from, you know, age 15 on, I was, uh, very, um, very active in martial arts competition, right? So the- my whole focus was on that and my whole focus was on getting better. And anything that would somehow or another get in the way of me getting better, I cut it out. Whether it was partying, drinking, spending too much time with girls. Whatever it was, I'm like, "That's gotta go 'cause that's getting in the way." And, um, I found that negative self-talk gets in the way because there's-

Peter Attia 8:38 Mm.

Joe Rogan 8:38 The reason why you have negative, or I had negative self-talk, was because I was, uh, insecure and I was very ambitious and I, uh, really wanted to be really good and I wanted to be really good immediately. I didn't wanna wait. But I realized somewhere along the way that the negative, in any way, shape, or form, I didn't need it because I was so driven, like, that the negative was just getting in the way. It was like I thought that it was helping me because I was like, "Come on, you fucking idiot." Like, "Get going." But then I realized like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, that's not, that isn't, there's no benefit to that because all the- You already have, like, this crazy desire to get better, so just don't ever be shitty to yourself and instead concentrate all your energy on what you're doing wrong and technique.

Peter Attia 9:29 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 9:30 And that's why my technique got so good so quickly is because I didn't, I didn't spend any time with self-lo- Like, I didn't spend any time after losses, loathing myself. All I wanted to do was get back to the gym, but I just figured it out on my own and I don't know how. You know, there's, like, there's been some moments in, in my life, in co- in comedy and in martial arts where I realize I have a very, I had an error in thinking and I made adjustments, and that was one of, that was an adjustment that I made, like, as a tee- as a young teenager I made that adjustment.

Peter Attia 10:05 That, that's fortunate. I mean, I, I, like, I'm 47. I'm 50 now, but I was 47 when I figured this out.

Joe Rogan 10:11 Yeah.

Peter Attia 10:11 And I didn't necessarily figure it out on my own. I mean, it had to be sort of made apparently clear to me. So the, you know, (laughs) if I'd figured this out when I was 17, I would've saved myself and everybody else a lot of pain.

Joe Rogan 10:22 (laughs) Yeah, it's hard, man, because if you're, if you're ambitious, if you have goals, if you're very into what you're doing, you're very focused on whatever the endeavor is, whenever you have a setback, it's, it's really frustrating and it, it's infuriating and you can, you can get very angry at yourself, especially if you're doing something that you know better. Like if you make an error, whether it's with archery or whether it's with-

Peter Attia 10:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:53 ... anything that you do that you're really interested in. If you, you know that it was a lapse of concentration or you're tired or you just weren't focused on it entirely and you fuck something up, it's like, "God dammit, you fucking dumbass piece of shit!" Like, it's so easy to do that, but you can't let that happen because it's a bad use of fuel. It really is. It's a bad use of fuel. I mean, I'll still occasionally yell if I fuck something up. Like, "Fucking fuck!" But I'm not mad at myself.

Peter Attia 11:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:27 It's just energy.

Peter Attia 11:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:28 I just have to fucking get it out, you know? Just rah! I just gotta fucking let it out. But, um, I think thinking of yourself as a fucking loser is never good. Like zero time. There's no benefit, ever. You're always gonna have frustration. You're always gonna... But you have to also understand the process. Like, in the, while things are going poorly, it's very difficult to, to recognize that it's part of the process. It's so hard. It's so hard when things are going poorly, whether it's with stand-up comedy or martial arts or anything. When things suck, when things aren't going well, it's so difficult to see past that moment, but you just have to.And over time, with m- many, many different instances of this taking place, you recognize, like, "It's okay. I know you feel like shit. I know you feel like the world is ending, but it's not. Not only is it not ending, this is, like, totally inconsequential, and this is actually good for you because this frustration will add to your motivation, it'll add to your inspiration, and you'll eventually get better." But (exhales) tell that to a 16-year-old. It's fucking so hard, man. It's so hard.

Peter Attia 12:40 I actually, uh, I'll tell you, in me, it got worse over time, like, as bad as it was when I was young. And when I was young, I mean, I was, it was so... I can't imagine what my parents went through. Like, I don't think I went one month without putting my fist through a wall at home.

Joe Rogan 12:52 Wow.

Peter Attia 12:52 I mean, I got s-, I got so good at doing drywall.

Joe Rogan 12:55 (laughs)

Peter Attia 12:55 Eh, I, I'm serious. Like... 'Cause that's, like, my parents were like, "Well, you're gonna have to fix that, right?"

Joe Rogan 12:59 No.

Peter Attia 12:59 So it's like, uh, uh, I basically became, like, a tradesman on the side.

Joe Rogan 13:02 Why didn't they just get you a punching bag? (laughs)

Peter Attia 13:03 I did. I mean, I had every punching bag. I mean, I-

Joe Rogan 13:05 You just didn't care, and you just hit the wall.

Peter Attia 13:06 I, uh... 'Cause if I got pissed while I was in my bedroom, there wasn't a punching bag there, like, boom.

Joe Rogan 13:10 Wow.

Peter Attia 13:11 Um, I mean, how many... Like, even, even in college, like, you know, writing computer programs and, like, if I, I, screw up some line of code, like, I would break my mouse or break my keyboard or whatever.

Joe Rogan 13:20 Wow.

Peter Attia 13:20 I mean, it was just, like, so pathologically destructive. Um, (laughs) and, you know, it just, it just got so much worse, you know? It just... Which is r- really frightening.

Joe Rogan 13:32 Do you think it got so much worse because you accomplished so many things and your drive just increased with the amount of success that you had and the, the, the, the different things you'd accomplished in your life, whereas when you were younger, it was almost like you would, you experienced fuck-ups and success, whereas as you've gotten older, when a fuck-up does happen, it's just so infuriating because you, you should be past it?

Peter Attia 14:00 That's a good question. I... That might be the case. It... My thinking is a little bit different, which is, um, there is an addiction at play here, right?

Joe Rogan 14:10 Hm.

Peter Attia 14:10 So, so if you, if you shift the thinking of this to that of addiction mindset, um... And it's hard to sometimes think of perfectionism as an addiction because it doesn't produce immediately the same negative consequences as the addictions to, you know, alcohol, drugs, and gambling, and sort of-

Joe Rogan 14:26 Yeah.

Peter Attia 14:26 ... the less socially acceptable addictions. But I think what happens with most people who are addicted to something is their appetite for that addiction gets higher and higher. And so, you know, if you're addicted to alcohol, like, an alcoholic habituates to a certain amount of alcohol. They have to drink more and more and more. And similarly, the need for achievement grew more and more and more.

Joe Rogan 14:52 Ah.

Peter Attia 14:52 And one of my therapists explained this to me so well, and I was like, "That is the most frightening, brilliant analogy I've ever heard." She said, "You know, your entire self-esteem is based on performance, and anytime you turn to one of your performance, you know, addictions and you don't get performance back, you lose your mind," right? "So you... Everything you have to do feeds your sense of self-worth. So if you go out and shoot the bow, it's gotta be great. If you go out and drive the car or get in the simulator, it's gotta be great. If you're trying to, you know, prepare for a podcast, it's gotta be great. Like, all of these things, you have to be great. And when you don't, it's sort of like an alcoholic who walks into a bar, asks for vodka, and gets water," right? "They're asking for vodka. They need the thing that feeds their addiction, but they're being given water instead. So I, I want..." I... "I'm demanding great performance because that's how I validate my existence, and I... Instead, I get no performance. I get lousy performance. But because my appetite has grown, it gets hard." That, that's why I think, over time, it just got worse and worse.

Joe Rogan 15:59 So, what did you do to correct that?

Peter Attia 16:02 Well, I mean, I think there's two things, right? There's the underlying belief system has to be completely shattered, right? So that's... You know, I spent total of five weeks in residential care. Um, two weeks in 2017 and three weeks in 2020. So that's, you know, that's as bad as it gets, right? That's... You're doing 12 to 13 hours a day of therapy seven days a week, um, and that's where you're kind of going back to the root of the problems, like, what is it that is creating or has created this belief system in you? Um, so you have to go back and look at that. You then have to figure out what are the strategies and tools to break these habits and behaviors. Um, and so to the latter, there was a very tangible tool, uh, put forth by one of the therapists, which was every time you do something that creates this ire and rage in you, instead of defaulting into your normal state, which is yelling at yourself, or breaking an arrow over your thigh, or whatever it is you would do, pull out your phone and audibly speak as though it's your friend that made that mistake, right? So if I'm shooting horribly and, and, and so... And I really feel like I'm gonna lose my mind, I pull out my phone and I pretend it's you that's shooting horribly-

Joe Rogan 17:20 Hm.

Peter Attia 17:20 ... what would I say to you?

Joe Rogan 17:21 Hm.

Peter Attia 17:22 I wouldn't yell at you if you were shooting poorly. I'd be like, "Joe, look, man, I... It's a little windy today. Let's be honest. We're not making excuses, but when it's 20-mile-an-hour wind, (laughs) it's hard to shoot well. Um, maybe you're tired, you know? You probably just lifted right before you came out here. That always makes it harder for you to stabilize the bow. Um, and look, maybe it's just a bad day. Like, let's come out and do it again tomorrow."

Joe Rogan 17:42 Hm.

Peter Attia 17:43 And so I would record that, and I would send that to my therapist every single time.

Joe Rogan 17:47 Wow.

Peter Attia 17:47 And this would happen, like, multiple times a day. And just doing that four or five times a day, after four, five, six months, what I called my inner Bobby Knight, which was the, the name I had for that guy that would scream at me, like, I just couldn't hear him anymore.

Joe Rogan 18:04 Wow. That's fascinating. So you fixed a lifelong problem in just a few months.

Peter Attia 18:11 Which if you had told me upfront that was possible, I would have said, "It's not."... you can't... I was like, "There's no way you can undo something so," I, I thought, "so terminal." Um, but, you know, this, this speaks to plasticity, right? The, the brain is a pretty plastic thing.

Joe Rogan 18:29 (smacks lips) It's interesting to think of what, what started you on this path and why you didn't course correct. I love this thought process that it's an addiction, that you're addicted to great performance, which totally makes sense, totally makes sense. 'Cause I could feel myself, I could... Like, I definitely could have succumbed to that same sort of, uh, thinking and behavior.

Peter Attia 18:55 And it is a dangerous addiction.

Joe Rogan 18:57 Mm.

Peter Attia 18:57 Perfectionism is a dangerous addiction in the sense that a lot of people will reward it. Society-

Joe Rogan 19:04 Yes.

Peter Attia 19:04 ... generally rewards it.

Joe Rogan 19:05 Yeah.

Peter Attia 19:06 And in that sense, another fear I had was... 'Cause, I mean, it's not like my... It's not like people around me didn't know I was a mess, but any time someone tried to suggest, like, "Back off," I would look at them and say, "Are you an idiot? Like, if I back off, I won't be as good." Like-

Joe Rogan 19:25 Mm.

Peter Attia 19:25 ... i- i- if I don't... You know, like, when I was in residency, I had this obsession with wanting to read every single textbook written in surgery. And, you know, this is... We were already working, like, 114 hours a week. It's not like I had a lot of free time. And my wife was like, "You're so dogmatic in this. Like, you insist on reading 26 pages of tiny-fonted textbooks every day." And, and she's like, "W- like, d- you don't need to do this." And I was like, "Are you kidding? Like, of course I need to do this. Like, what else will my legacy be if I don't do this?" I mean, it's just, like, this very polluted sense of self-worth.

Joe Rogan 20:00 Mm.

Peter Attia 20:01 Um, but again, it's rewarded, 'cause then you, you, you know, you know a lot, right? And so, you, you, people, people are happy with how much you know. So, it feeds on itself in a very destructive way. There's nobody that's looking at the guy who's losing all his money gambling and saying, "Good job." Like-

Joe Rogan 20:16 (laughs)

Peter Attia 20:16 "Keep doing that."

Joe Rogan 20:19 Legacy is the strangest thing to aspire to, because you will never experience it.

Peter Attia 20:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:26 It's such a weird-

Peter Attia 20:27 It's so ridiculous, isn't it?

Joe Rogan 20:28 It's a-

Peter Attia 20:28 You're not even gonna be here. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:30 So weird. I'm really glad I don't have any f- worry about my legacy. I have zero thought about my legacy.

Peter Attia 20:36 I, I, and I am so glad that I couldn't care less about it now as well.

Joe Rogan 20:41 (laughs)

Peter Attia 20:41 It is such a-

Joe Rogan 20:42 So crazy.

Peter Attia 20:42 ... it's such a remarkable freedom. And-

Joe Rogan 20:44 It's the driving force betr- behind many people's lives, though.

Peter Attia 20:47 Yeah. And I, I actually like feeling, like, kind of a, a good-for-nothing whatever. Like, I mean, t- t-

Joe Rogan 20:54 Well, you certainly are not that, though. See-

Peter Attia 20:55 No, no, no. But if-

Joe Rogan 20:56 ... that's why you like feeling like a good-for-nothing, because you clearly are not.

Peter Attia 20:59 Well, I think it's just that I realize, like, outside of my kids... I, I'll tell you an interesting story that's sort of a sad story, but it's, it's so profound, right? So, I had a friend who, um, his wife was pregnant with their first kid. And he's a successful guy, so he... Prior to his wife having kids, I think he goes through the same sort of thoughts everyone is gonna go through, which is like, "How is this gonna change my life?" And the day his wife has the baby, he, you know... Uh, it's, like, the next day, I guess. She was still in the hospital. He steps out to go buy some food and he, he, he still remembers this to this day. He's like, he bought a banana and he's walking back to the hospital with the banana that he just bought, and he thinks to himself, "I wonder if I'm gonna be the kinda guy who now thinks the most important thing in his life is his family, or is it still gonna be, you know, being a venture capitalist?" And he's thinking about it. He's thinking about it. And he goes, "You know what? I actually think it's just gonna be my family. I think all this other stuff is gonna be bullshit and life is gonna be my family." And I'm not making this up. He gets back to the room and his wife is dead.

Joe Rogan 22:06 Oh, my God.

Peter Attia 22:07 She had had a pulmonary embolism.

Joe Rogan 22:09 Oh.

Peter Attia 22:10 And she died one day after delivering their, uh, first child.

Joe Rogan 22:14 Oh.

Peter Attia 22:16 And I was just having dinner with him, like, two weeks ago, and he was like, "You know, it's so ironic that I kind of just immediately have that realization just as everything gets taken away from me." But he feels that way even more now, right? And I was like, "You know, I think that is exactly the right distinction to make." It's like, "This is life. These are the things that are life. Everything else is bullshit."

Joe Rogan 22:40 Yeah. The problem is that getting acceptance and getting appreciation for success is all... is a drug. It, it really is a drug, right?

Peter Attia 22:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:53 And it becomes a thing that you aspire to and it seems like the only thing in life. (smacks lips) When the... Really, the, the m- the goal to life, really, is harmony. That's the real goal. Like, the goal to life is not never being uncomfortable or always being uncomfortable. The goal to life is not n- never being upset versus always being upset. The goal to life is, like, this balance. It's, like, enjoyment in the things that you do, but also in your occupation, having hobbies, but also having a family, having l- love and friendship, but also having enough people in your life that you've encountered that suck to understand why you appreciate the people that you care for so much.

Peter Attia 23:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:46 I think all those are important. Like, even the sh- the people that I know that suck, I've, I value those experiences because they've taught me how really cool my other friends are. You know? When someone is a, uh, fucking psycho narcissist and they fucking ruin everything they touch and, like, it's good to see that person. It's really good to see this one person that doesn't give a shit about anybody but themselves and go, "Wow, what a weird way to live."

Peter Attia 24:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:17 You know? And then, a- and make you appreciate this other friend that's, like, super generous and helps everybody, is always smiling. Like, "God, I love you so much now."

Peter Attia 24:24 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:24 "I appreciate you." You know? Like, appreciate, like, that you have this energy, because...... we could all be that guy. We could all be this fucking psycho who thinks about nothing other than themselves, or this psycho who thinks about nothing other than success, which I've been in my life before. You know, um, I really, like, I almost wish I could go back and meet myself when I was 21, 'cause I'm so different from that person then.

Peter Attia 24:49 Mm.

Joe Rogan 24:49 I'm almost, like, have a distorted understanding of, like, who I was. I really would like to see that person.

Peter Attia 24:55 Mm.

Joe Rogan 24:55 I'd like to s- like, see that person operate, you know, like, and just, like-

Peter Attia 25:00 And you wouldn't worry about... 'cause of course I play this game all the time, right? Everything happens for a reason. You are where you are today-

Joe Rogan 25:06 Yeah.

Peter Attia 25:06 ... you are who you are. Like, if you went back and talked to the 21-year-old you, A, would he even listen to you? That's question one.

Joe Rogan 25:12 I wouldn't talk to him.

Peter Attia 25:13 Oh, you w- oh, you just wanted to observe?

Joe Rogan 25:14 No, I just want to watch.

Peter Attia 25:15 Oh, okay, okay, forgot, yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:16 Yeah, I'm not gonna change anything.

Peter Attia 25:17 Yeah, yeah, I got it, okay.

Joe Rogan 25:18 Look, I would not wanna change anything about, about my youth, because I think that it, it turned me into who I am. And I think whatever combination of life experiences and bad feelings and positive feelings and whatever positive feedback that I got from performance and from a- accomplishments, they, they drove me to become who I am.

Peter Attia 25:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:40 But it's also, it's like, it's, there's also a lot of, like, being fortunate, right? Like, being fortunate that you found a great occupation and a great group of p- people, and I have a great family. It's l- it's like, like, to be happy in life is fucking complicated.

Peter Attia 25:58 Yeah, there's amazing luck involved. I mean, you and I were talking about this the other day, right? Like, winning the wife lottery, like, when you marry the right person-

Joe Rogan 26:04 Oh, God. It's everything.

Peter Attia 26:05 It's... Yeah. I, I... And, and I think I just feel, like, so lucky that-

Joe Rogan 26:10 Your wife's amazing. You really are lucky. And, and so am I.

Peter Attia 26:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:13 And a lot of other people are too, but you also didn't fucking marry some dumb bitch. (laughs)

Peter Attia 26:18 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:18 You know? (laughs) You know? And she, in her, on her case, she didn't marry some fucking dumb asshole. It's like, you get lucky, but you also... I, like, I've dated some monsters, you know? And, and I got out of it, luckily, but just, Jesus Christ. There's monsters out there. There's people... And these people are just human beings, and you're catching them at whatever stage of their existence where they've had, like, terrible upbringings and bad family members and just a fucking alcoholic dad, abusive mother who's constantly criticizing them. And then they, they become this thing, and then you run into them at the bar. "Hi, nice to meet you. I'm Peter."

Peter Attia 27:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:00 "Hi, I'm Debbie." And then Debbie just fucking, "What's... Let me look at your phone. Who are you texting, Peter?" Like, "Oh, no." (laughs)

Peter Attia 27:07 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:08 But if Debbie's hot, that's the problem. You know? Your genes are like, "Listen, listen, shut the fuck up. Like, look at her tits."

Peter Attia 27:16 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:16 "Look at that ass. Let's go." And then next thing you know, Debbie's pregnant. Next thing you know, Peter has a baby with some monster. And that can happen. It, it, it's happened to my friends, to good friends of mine. It's fucking awful to experience. I've had good friends of mine that got wrapped up in horrendous relationships. (sighs)

Peter Attia 27:36 I think... I was thinking about this the other day. I mean, the role of luck in anyone's life is profound. The, the thing that I think gets underappreciated is the luck we have being born where we are.

Joe Rogan 27:47 Oh, yeah.

Peter Attia 27:47 Like, I... So my parents are immigrants, right? So I was born, like, a couple years after they moved to Canada, and I was talking with my parents, uh, two months ago, they came out to visit, and I said, like, "Was there any chance you guys were not gonna move?" Now you've stayed in Egypt, right? Like, what, what... Was there any chance an-... And I think, "You ever think how different my life would be if I was born in Cairo?"

Joe Rogan 28:08 Mm.

Peter Attia 28:09 And the answer is, like, beyond different.

Joe Rogan 28:12 Beyond.

Peter Attia 28:12 Beyond different.

Joe Rogan 28:13 Beyond.

Peter Attia 28:14 There, there is no singer- single stroke of luck that has impacted my life that... And by the way, like, if, if we had been, if we'd been born in Egypt, or if I'd been born in Egypt, you know, because we're not Muslim, I mean, it's not a great place to be if you're not a Muslim-

Joe Rogan 28:28 Mm.

Peter Attia 28:29 ... um, in a, in a country that's obviously majority Muslim.

Joe Rogan 28:31 Mm.

Peter Attia 28:32 So, you know, there just would have... You know, I would have been discriminated against. I mean, it would have just been... I wouldn't have had the same educational opportunities, which wouldn't have had any of the opportunities that I had growing up in Canada. So, you know, something that's completely out of my control, but probably had a greater impact on the arc of my life than anything else.

Joe Rogan 28:49 Yeah, that's just dumb luck, right?

Peter Attia 28:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:51 You just hit the birth lottery. Absolutely, I think that way too. I also think that, you know, we are extremely fortunate in human history to be born when we were born. I'm a little older than you. I'm 55, you're 50. So w- you know, you were born in the '70s, I was born in the late '60s, and what w-... We were born-

Peter Attia 29:12 Yeah, just go 100 years earlier.

Joe Rogan 29:14 Yeah, yeah. Insane.

Peter Attia 29:15 Which, in, in evolutionary time, is still nothing, right?

Joe Rogan 29:18 Nothing. Blink of an eye.

Peter Attia 29:18 That's, like, 0.001%.

Joe Rogan 29:19 Yeah.

Peter Attia 29:19 But yes, 100 years sooner, (laughs) totally different existence.

Joe Rogan 29:23 We're fucked. Yeah, we're fucked. We're fucked. Everyone's dying of infections, and, and on top of that, we have experienced a very unique time in human history, where the birth of the internet has happened while we were adults.

Peter Attia 29:37 A- and not too young for us, right?

Joe Rogan 29:39 Right. Exactly.

Peter Attia 29:39 So, so it's, like, we got to grow up -I hate to say it- but, like, normal, right?

Joe Rogan 29:43 Yeah.

Peter Attia 29:43 Like, we got to-

Joe Rogan 29:44 Yeah, like, normal.

Peter Attia 29:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:44 Like, a normal human. I mean, when I was a kid, I remember the answering machine being a big deal. We were like, "Whoa, someone can call you and leave a message."

Peter Attia 29:51 We never had one at our house. Yeah, we... (laughs) Yeah, no, that was, that was advanced.

Joe Rogan 29:56 (laughs)

Peter Attia 29:57 That was way too advanced.

Joe Rogan 29:59 I think I was in high school when it happened, or somewhere around then, and I remember we got one at my house. I was like, "Whoa." And you would come home and you'd see, like, a little light flashing.

Peter Attia 30:09 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:10 It showed you had a message. I was like, "This is crazy."

Peter Attia 30:13 I remember when we got our first-

Joe Rogan 30:14 "I live in the future."

Peter Attia 30:14 ... push phone, like the, when, when you didn't have to rotary dial it.

Joe Rogan 30:17 Yes, I remember those.

Peter Attia 30:18 And I was like, "It is so much faster now."

Joe Rogan 30:20 And you don't go crazy. Talk about punching a wall. If you get through all those digits, then you fuck up the last one, like, "Ah!"

Peter Attia 30:27 Like, I remember hating to call people-

Joe Rogan 30:29 "Shh."

Peter Attia 30:29 ... that had eights and nines in their numbers.

Joe Rogan 30:31 Oh, yeah, they took a long time. Forget about that.

Peter Attia 30:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:34 Nines took forever.

Peter Attia 30:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:36 Oh, my God. That's hilarious. It's so funny. People will never know that. They think it's novel. It's like people who like using typewriters. "Oh, I'm an old-timey person."

Peter Attia 30:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:47 (laughs) With the fucking Wite-Out on the paper. The fuck outta here, stupid.

Peter Attia 30:51 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:52 (laughs) I mean, it's kind of amazing. Like, typewriters existed forever and then all of a sudden there's a word processor. And it, like, says, "Didn't you mean this word?" And you're like, "Oh, my God. Yeah, I did mean that word. Thank you."

Peter Attia 31:02 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:02 It's, like, you barely even... Like, when I write in Microsoft Word, I am stunned at how often it just, like, corrects for me. Or I, like, just hit tab and, like, I'm halfway into the word and it offers a suggestion. "Yeah, that's it. Yep, that's it." Like, I'll get four letters in, and it's like, "Suggestion? Yeah, that's it."

Peter Attia 31:21 Yeah. Yeah. Well, and Gmail does it now for the whole sentence.

Joe Rogan 31:24 Yes, that's wild.

Peter Attia 31:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:26 When you get an email-

Peter Attia 31:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:27 ... and it, it gives you a potential response. Like, "Oh, boy." Meanwhile, the government is, like, completely reading everything you say. Everything you say. Did you see that Tucker Carlson said that the, uh, the NSA got into his Signal?

Peter Attia 31:45 No, I didn't.

Joe Rogan 31:45 Yeah, his Signal app, 'cause he was about to have a conversation with Putin. They were trying to set up a conversation with Putin, and the government called 'em up and they're like, "Hey, we know you're, uh, setting up a conversation with Putin. We s- we saw through your Signal app." And he was like, "What?" Like, "I didn't even fucking know they could do that." That's what he was saying. I assumed-

Peter Attia 32:04 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 32:05 ... they could do that because I had a conversation with Gavin de Becker and he essentially said that through Pegasus software, it's, uh, Pegasus 2.0. He said Pegasus 1.0, you needed to click a link, and that's how they got Bezos.

Peter Attia 32:16 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 32:16 And that's how, um, what's the guy's name from Saudi Arabia got Bezos?

Peter Attia 32:20 MbS.

Joe Rogan 32:21 Yeah. Um, but Pegasus 2.0, they just need your phone number. That's it. Like, y- your f- all this idea of encryption, like... (laughs) Oh, are you using encryption? (laughs)

Peter Attia 32:35 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 32:36 That shit doesn't mean anything. They can just read whatever they want.

Peter Attia 32:40 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 32:40 It's really crazy.

Peter Attia 32:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:42 It's the amou- the violation of privacy that's available right now to, by the way, just regular people. Here's the thing about it. Like, who are these people that work for the government? They're people. They're just people that make a decision to just look into other people's stuff. It's not like these are... They're not priests. They're not some monk-

Peter Attia 33:00 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:00 ... that spent 10 years meditating on a thought on a mountaintop and have achieved-

Peter Attia 33:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:05 ... a, you know, an extraordinary level of consciousness. No, these are just fucking regular dorks who jerk off in the bathroom on their lunch break.

Peter Attia 33:14 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:14 And these guys have access to all your emails. And it's a real problem. It's a real problem that I don't think most people are even available, or, or, or a- aware of. It's a giant issue that we experience right now, w- with this, like, this whole d- digital world. And I don't know how much you've fucked with ChatGPT at all.

Peter Attia 33:34 Quite a bit. Um, I, I mean, I'm, I've been trying to get onto GPT-4 now, 'cause I'm, I'm told that it's a significant upgrade.

Joe Rogan 33:42 Significant upgrade.

Peter Attia 33:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:43 Yeah.

Peter Attia 33:43 'Cause I was not impressed with ChatGPT on questions that required, like, I, I'll give you an example. Like, I asked it, "Between Sugar Ray Leonard, Marvin Hagler, Tommy Hearns, and Roberto Duran, explain who you think is the best boxer of that era."

Joe Rogan 34:03 Hmm. What did it say?

Peter Attia 34:03 Like, this, uh... I can't remember, but it was so dumb, Joe, that I was like, "There... This is not a helpful answer." Like, it basically said, "Well, um, you know, Tommy Hearns beat Roberto Duran and..." Like, it just basically recited a bunch of facts, but-

Joe Rogan 34:19 Hmm.

Peter Attia 34:19 ... it couldn't come up with anything. I then asked it, this was actually really odd, um, I said, "What was so special about the 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix?" That's the one where, going into the final race, uh, Verstappen and Hamilton were tied even, winner take all for the championship that year. And it was a very controversial ending.

Joe Rogan 34:40 What was the controversy?

Peter Attia 34:40 Well, 'cause of the safety cars. The... So basically, um, Lewis is leading, Max is in second, and then with, like, a few laps to go, um, uh, who, who spun out? I think, uh, Nicholas Latifi hit the wall, which needed a, a, a safety car. And in the process, there's a rule that says every lapped car should be able to unlap itself for the restart, but they only, um, let the cars between Hamilton and Verstappen unlap themselves. So Verstappen had already pitted, he got soft tires.

Joe Rogan 35:11 What is unlap?

Peter Attia 35:13 So the lead, by the end of a race, usually the leaders have actually lapped the back markers of the field.

Joe Rogan 35:19 Mm-hmm.

Peter Attia 35:19 So unlap means they get to go ahead of the leader to unlap themselves and catch the tail again, 'cause the cars are all going so slow under a safety car.

Joe Rogan 35:28 I see.

Peter Attia 35:30 And, anyway, the point is it was super controversial. If not for the way the stewards had interpreted the rule, Hamilton probably would've won the race. But instead Verstappen won, 'cause he was on better tires. So even though he was behind, it wasn't, it was like he smoked Hamilton in the last lap. So I-

Joe Rogan 35:48 'Cause he had newer tires? His tires, his tires changed?

Peter Attia 35:50 He had newer tires. Yeah, yeah. He had, he had switched his tires at the beginning of that crash.

Joe Rogan 35:53 Hmm.

Peter Attia 35:53 So I asked ChatGPT to sort of tell me what it w- I didn't want to allude to it. I just said, "What was special about that race?" This is the part that blew my mind. Not only did it not know, it confabulated the whole thing. It literally made up nonsense. Oh, it, it got some things right. "This was the last race of the 2021 season. And going in, you know, Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton were even on points." And then it went off the rails, dude. It was like (laughs) it just... In the middle of the race, there was a safety car that did this. And it's like, "No, there wasn't." And it actually got it wrong. It said Lewis won, and in doing so-

Joe Rogan 36:30 Ooh.

Peter Attia 36:30 ... became the first ever eight-time world champion. And I'm like-

Joe Rogan 36:34 Wow.

Peter Attia 36:35 ... "Wow." It's like the confidence with which you spewed all of those lies is amazing.

Joe Rogan 36:40 So this is a 3.5?

Peter Attia 36:42 This was... So, I did this probably like a month ago, so I don't know what version.

Joe Rogan 36:46 Must have been 3.5.

Peter Attia 36:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:47 Was that what it was? Was it 3 or 3.5 a month ago? 'Cause it, it changed multiple times.

Peter Attia 36:53 Yeah.

Narrator 36:53 4 is the newer-

Joe Rogan 36:54 Newest.

Narrator 36:54 ... version within like the last two weeks, but it's... No, not everyone can use it still.

Peter Attia 36:58 I'm not good enough to use it 'cause I've tried. I can't get it.

Joe Rogan 37:01 You can't get it?

Peter Attia 37:01 No.

Joe Rogan 37:02 Why not?

Peter Attia 37:02 I don't know. Every time I try...

Joe Rogan 37:03 They don't like you.

Peter Attia 37:03 Yeah, clearly not. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:04 Well, you must have talked some shit.

Peter Attia 37:06 I must have. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:07 (laughs) Maybe they heard you talk about 3.5.

Peter Attia 37:09 They're like, "No 4 for you."

Joe Rogan 37:12 It's... You would never be able to get... That was... That's an interesting thing, like when it comes to the boxing a- analogy or the question. Like, how would you quantify... Like, 'cause experts... Like, you and I love boxing.

Peter Attia 37:24 Right.

Joe Rogan 37:25 But if we had a conversation about who's bet- Like, who would you say? Ma- um, Martin Hagler-

Peter Attia 37:29 Of that era?

Joe Rogan 37:29 ... Tommy Hearns, Sugar Ray Leonard, or Roberto Duran?

Peter Attia 37:31 I put Hagler first.

Joe Rogan 37:32 Me too.

Peter Attia 37:32 Yep.

Joe Rogan 37:33 Yeah, I agree. I think he was the best because he, he beat everybody. And the only reason why I wouldn't put Duran ahead of Hagler is that Duran... Duran was fighting at 160 pounds.

Peter Attia 37:44 Duran wasn't a natural middleweight.

Joe Rogan 37:46 He was 135-pounder.

Peter Attia 37:47 That's right, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:48 Yeah.

Peter Attia 37:48 So, so-

Joe Rogan 37:48 If you go back to like Ken Buchanan, when he fought Ken Buchanan at 135, he was a fucking monster.

Peter Attia 37:53 He, he was a m- He was a beast all the way up to welterweight.

Joe Rogan 37:56 Yeah.

Peter Attia 37:56 I mean, insane.

Joe Rogan 37:57 And even in welterweight.

Peter Attia 37:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:58 And then, you know, I'd... The second fight with, uh, Sugar Ray Leonard really...

Peter Attia 38:04 No, no, no. Hearns won that fight.

Joe Rogan 38:05 Disaster.

Peter Attia 38:05 That's a disaster.

Joe Rogan 38:05 No, no. Leonard.

Peter Attia 38:06 Oh, oh, oh.

Joe Rogan 38:07 Leonard and, and, um, uh, Duran.

Peter Attia 38:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:10 D- The second fight's a disaster because Duran got fat and was partying and he had a fucking lion that was on a chain-

Peter Attia 38:18 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:18 ... just walking up Panama. He was out of his fucking mind. And he just partied too much, and they gave him like six weeks to prepare for an en- enormous fight.

Peter Attia 38:27 Didn't he lose like 40 pounds-

Joe Rogan 38:29 Yeah.

Peter Attia 38:29 ... in six weeks or something?

Joe Rogan 38:30 Well, he looked like shit too.

Peter Attia 38:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:31 Like, you look at his body, the difference between the way his body looked in the first fight and the second. The first fight, he was like a live wire.

Peter Attia 38:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:37 I mean, he was just an animal. I mean, he attacked with such ferocity, such fucking technique, and just r- roughed Leonard up and battered him, and did to Leonard what nobody anticipated.

Peter Attia 38:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:49 You know? And Leonard, for whatever reason, decided to try to stand with him, which is crazy. So, Leonard had a far better approach in the second fight, but he also was facing a Duran that just really fucked up. And that- those are the days where you had to weigh in the day of the fight too.

Peter Attia 39:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:04 Which is crazy.

Peter Attia 39:06 And, and I thought... I, I'll tell you, I don't think Leonard beat Hearns in the second fight. That was a draw. I mean, I think that was an awful call.

Joe Rogan 39:12 Yeah, I think so too.

Peter Attia 39:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:14 And I don't think Leonard beat Hagler.

Peter Attia 39:15 No, I don't. I, I've scored that fight 115-113 for Hagler four times across 20 years.

Joe Rogan 39:20 Yeah.

Peter Attia 39:20 Like I wa- I watch it about every four years, and I keep coming back 115-113. Um, and it bums me out. Like, it just, it just... I, I always think like Hagler doesn't quite get the due. He... I think Hagler was... You know. I think Hagler, Monzon, you know, Hopkins-

Joe Rogan 39:37 Mm-hmm.

Peter Attia 39:38 ... Robinson. I mean, they're the greatest middleweights of all time.

Joe Rogan 39:40 Yeah. Yeah, I would agree. Yeah, I think... I mean, Hagler has a special place in my heart because, uh...

Peter Attia 39:45 Did you ever meet him?

Joe Rogan 39:46 No. I wish I did, Goddammit. No, no, he's one I really wish I met.

Peter Attia 39:51 Yeah, me too.

Joe Rogan 39:52 That was-

Peter Attia 39:52 He was such a hero of mine like as a kid.

Joe Rogan 39:54 Me too.

Peter Attia 39:54 Like, I was so obsessed with him when I was 13.

Joe Rogan 39:56 Me too. Same thing. Uh, for me, it was his discipline.

Peter Attia 39:59 Yep. Never got out of shape. Shows up in camp, in shape, at weight.

Joe Rogan 40:04 Yeah. And he would wear that hat that says "War" on it.

Peter Attia 40:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:07 (laughs)

Peter Attia 40:07 Oh, God.

Joe Rogan 40:08 He scared everybody. And also, he had the greatest chin.

Peter Attia 40:11 Greatest chin.

Joe Rogan 40:12 Of all time.

Peter Attia 40:12 Amazing counter-puncher.

Joe Rogan 40:13 Yeah.

Peter Attia 40:13 Such discipline.

Joe Rogan 40:14 The Juan Roldan knockdown is horseshit.

Peter Attia 40:16 No, no, no.

Joe Rogan 40:16 That's a fake knockdown.

Peter Attia 40:17 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:17 It wasn't a knockdown. He, he got kind of pushed down. They called it a knockdown. He took a shot better than anybody that's ever existed. He took a shot from John "The Beast" Mugabi that snapped his head back, and he's like, "Yeah, whatever," and just fucking stayed on him.

Peter Attia 40:30 I mean, look at, look at the first round of Hagler-Hearns. I mean...

Joe Rogan 40:32 Oh, my God. And Hearns just threw missiles at him. Just boom, boom. I watched that again just two days ago.

Peter Attia 40:40 No way.

Joe Rogan 40:41 Yeah. Gotta watch that fight again.

Peter Attia 40:42 I, I don't think I've watched that fight in about five years.

Joe Rogan 40:44 God, it's amazing.

Peter Attia 40:44 I need to go back and watch it.

Joe Rogan 40:45 It's so crazy to see two guys at the very top of the heap, the best in the world, just throwing caution to the wind and winging punches at each other. It was so crazy. And Hagler just forced Hearns into a dogfight.

Peter Attia 41:03 Yep.

Joe Rogan 41:03 'Cause Hagler knew like... You know, do you know Hagler had extraordinary musculature on the side of his head that was so thick that it, it was almost like he was built with headgear on?

Peter Attia 41:14 (laughs) No, I didn't know that.

Joe Rogan 41:15 Yeah, it was crazy. Like, see if you can find an article on that. But they did an MRI on Hagler's head while he was alive. And, uh, one of the things that they said is like the amount of like the mandible muscles, the muscles that like, uh, uh, like...

Peter Attia 41:29 Our temporalis muscle, yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:30 Yeah. Is that what it's...

Peter Attia 41:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:31 That they're so thick, they're like three times normal size. They're like... It's crazy. It's like he was born to fight. But it's also his, his will and the conditioning. His conditioning was legendary.

Peter Attia 41:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:45 He'd run with combat boots on in the winter on the beach. I mean, he was just a monster.

Peter Attia 41:49 I just did everything to emulate Hagler when I was a kid.

Joe Rogan 41:52 Yeah.

Peter Attia 41:52 It was... It was just... And, and when he "lost" to Sugar Ray Leonard, I was in eighth grade, and all the girls in my class, to tease me, put bags of sugar on my desk the next day.

Joe Rogan 42:04 Oh, my God. (laughs)

Peter Attia 42:04 Like, I mean, it was just like... You know, um...

Joe Rogan 42:08 That was dirty, bitches.

Peter Attia 42:09 I was so pissed. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:12 (laughs) I always felt when, when I watched that fight, like Hagler was holding back.

Peter Attia 42:17 Yeah, so, so... As you know, right? Like, Leonard bought the fight, right? So basically... And this is the only thing I just wish I could undo in history. Hagler was so adamant about making more than Leonard in that fight that he conceded on three things that he shouldn't have conceded on. So, Leonard is al- You know, I don't think Leonard deserved more money than Hagler, right? He was coming out of retirement. He had just been knocked on his ass by Kevin Howard a few years earlier.

Joe Rogan 42:41 Right.

Peter Attia 42:42 Like, I don't know why he should be top bill.... Hagler was undisputed middleweight champion of the world, but nevertheless, because he's Leonard, the promoters were gonna give him more money. And Hagler was like, "Oh, hell no. I get paid the most." And in exchange, he conceded to the following: bigger gloves, larger ring, 12 instead of 15 rounds. Le- Leonard got three out of three things that he wanted. Now just imagine any one of those things is undone.

Joe Rogan 43:08 I thought they had already stopped doing 15 rounds at that point.

Peter Attia 43:10 No. This was the e- this would've been the end of it because it was the summer of '87 when the IBF switched to 12 rounds.

Joe Rogan 43:17 So that's right after Duk Koo Kim died.

Peter Attia 43:20 No. Duk Koo Kim died in '82.

Joe Rogan 43:21 Really?

Peter Attia 43:22 Yeah. So, so one of the federations, one of the three had already-

Joe Rogan 43:25 I did- I thought that was when they ended it.

Peter Attia 43:27 No. One of them had switched to 12, but because Hagler was undisputed, this still could've been a 15-round fight.

Joe Rogan 43:33 Oh, wow.

Peter Attia 43:34 And so just think about how that fight's different with three more rounds.

Joe Rogan 43:36 Yeah.

Peter Attia 43:37 Or with smaller gloves or with a smaller ring.

Joe Rogan 43:39 Smaller gloves made a big impact.

Peter Attia 43:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:41 Were they e- were they 10s?

Peter Attia 43:42 I th- I can't remember if they were 10s instead of 12s or e- eights instead of 10s, but it was, you know ...

Joe Rogan 43:48 Hmm. It can't be 12s, right?

Peter Attia 43:49 I, I don't remember. I used to know every detail of this.

Joe Rogan 43:53 12s is crazy.

Peter Attia 43:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:53 12s is so big.

Peter Attia 43:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:55 Especially when I think of MMA with four, you know. MMA's have those little tiny little gloves on. There's a- they're doing a lot of fights in ONE FC now where they have kickboxing matches with MMA gloves.

Peter Attia 44:06 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:07 It's, (blows air) it's wild.

Peter Attia 44:10 You ever meet Benny The Jet Urquidez?

Joe Rogan 44:11 No, I have not.

Peter Attia 44:12 That's another dude I wish I liked.

Joe Rogan 44:14 Yeah, I wish.

Peter Attia 44:14 That was my, that was my kickboxing idol.

Joe Rogan 44:15 Yeah, mine as well. I'd b- I'd like to get him on the podcast. I've talked about getting him on. I gotta reach out. He, I, I met his, uh, his, uh, his cousin, Blinky, Blinky Rodriguez, um, when I was living in California, when I first moved there. There was two places that I had to go to. One was the Comedy Store and two was the Jet Setter.

Peter Attia 44:33 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:34 And I went to the Jet Setter when I moved there in '94, and it was right after the big earthquake. And the building that the Jet Setter was in got fucked up by the earthquake, and the problem was when the rain season came, the building was a mess.

Peter Attia 44:48 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:48 Because it just started leaking everywhere. It got really cracked open, and the, y- they had to move. So then they moved to North Hollywood and I trained there for a while too, but it just wasn't the same. The, the, the Jet Center in Van Nuys was where it was at. And Blinky, ooh, um, I believe had lost his son to gang violence. I hope I'm not fucking this up. Um, but he, because of that, had this sort of outreach program where he would work with all the gang members.

Peter Attia 45:17 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 45:18 And so I was sparring with these hardcore gang members, and I was good, so it was a real problem.

Peter Attia 45:26 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:26 So I was like, you know, I was, I was-

Peter Attia 45:27 Don't be too good.

Joe Rogan 45:28 ... 26 at the time, somewhere around then, so it was only like a few years, five years removed from me fighting. And so, uh, I was, uh, still sparring and I was still training on a regular basis, and I'd get in there with these like hardcore gang members with like, just covered in tattoos and ... But they had no skills. And, you know, I'd just be real nice to them.

Peter Attia 45:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:51 Just like, "Please don't fucking (laughs) shoot me after this." You know? I remember, um, dropping this guy with a body shot and going, "Oh, no." And then he got up, he's like, "That was a good shot, good shot."

Peter Attia 46:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:01 I was like, "Huh, thank you." (laughs)

Peter Attia 46:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:05 But he, he would have these guys come in that were, you know, like right off the street and try to give them some focus and give them something that they could, they could do to, you know, channel their aggressive energy.

Peter Attia 46:17 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:17 And also give them some self-esteem, like develop like some skills and, you know. And they had a real idol in Blinky. Like Blinky Rodriguez, I don't know if you ever saw him fight, but he was a bad man. He was the first guy to knock out Jean Yves Thériault.

Peter Attia 46:32 Oh, really?

Joe Rogan 46:33 Yeah, when Jean Yves Thériault was the fucking man.

Peter Attia 46:34 God, what a blast from the past.

Joe Rogan 46:36 Yeah. Jean Yves Thériault was the fucking man, and Blinky knocked him out with a left hook. I mean, flat-lined him. See if you can find that. Blinky Rodriguez KOs Jean Yves Thériault. It was, uh, in the pants days, the pants kickboxing days, where you had to wear pants.

Peter Attia 46:53 Yep.

Joe Rogan 46:54 It wasn't like the kickboxing- (laughs)

Peter Attia 46:55 I love the pant days. Remember Bill Wallace?

Joe Rogan 46:57 Yes, Superfoot.

Peter Attia 46:58 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:58 He was a fucking man.

Peter Attia 47:00 Is he still alive?

Joe Rogan 47:00 Yes, he is. Yeah, he's still throwing kicks. So here it is. Like look how bad the fucking, the, the, the resolution is.

Peter Attia 47:06 The VHSs? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:07 Yeah, look at this. So Jean Yves Thériault ... Oh, that's a leg ... That looks like a leg kick. Was that a leg kick? It's hard to tell. I mean, we're talking about like the 1980s. Yeah, it was a leg kick. Interesting. That's interesting 'cause they're leg kicking with pants on. Really unusual, right? But, um, so this fight, I don't remember. Yeah, they're throwing ... Oh.

Peter Attia 47:35 Oh.

Joe Rogan 47:35 There it is. Look at that. So he threw a low kick with the right, and then left hooked him. Show that one more time. So watch this. It's a beautiful setup. Boom. (clicks tongue) So he spun him around with a low kick and then flat-lined him. And Jean Yves Thériault went on to be like a absolute destroyer. I mean, he was like one of the very best kickboxers of that era, and just would fucking kill people. He was so good. But that fight ...

Peter Attia 48:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:06 Blinky Rodriguez flat-lined him, and Blinky was kind of like ... You know, he was a legend in the kickboxing world, and he did a lot of commentary, too. I remember listening to a lot of commentary he did for kickboxing, but that gym was, uh, you know ... Like if you talk about like all-time famous kickboxing gyms in the United States, that's probably number one, right?

Peter Attia 48:27 I think so, yeah. I mean, when I, when I was a kid-

Joe Rogan 48:29 But it was at the time, in the '90s.

Peter Attia 48:29 ... that was like, that-

Joe Rogan 48:30 Yeah, the Jet Center.

Peter Attia 48:31 ... that seemed like the only place to go, yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:33 Hmm. Yeah, Benny was ... I mean, i- his fucking style was amazing. He was so aggressive. He was so ... He had such an incredible technique too. And he was like one of the first guys that like was ... that-... entered into kickboxing that got... He was so good that he got people paying attention. It wasn't a lot of people paying attention to kickboxing back then.

Peter Attia 48:57 Yeah. Unless you were dorks like us.

Joe Rogan 48:59 Yeah, unless you're dorks like us, yeah. Yeah, I didn't even know about Muay Thai. I didn't know anybody that fought Muay Thai until... I was, uh, doing regular kickboxing in 1988 and there was this dude who I was friends with who was training at this one gym where this guy was going back and forth to Thailand. I was like, "Why is he going to Thailand?" I was like, "He goes over there and fights. He goes over there and trains and lives there for a few months and fights." And I thought this guy was the craziest guy I'd ever met, this dude from Massachusetts who just would go over to Thailand and he would train for many months at a time. It's like, you know, in 1988. I was like, "What is he doing?" Like, yeah, he sleeps on the floor, lives in Thailand, and goes to a temple every day. I'm like, "What the fuck?"

Peter Attia 49:43 I spent two years doing Muay Thai in college and absolutely loved it, but, man, it's a different level of pain.

Joe Rogan 49:51 Oh, yeah.

Peter Attia 49:52 It's a totally (laughs) different level of pain.

Joe Rogan 49:54 Leg pain-

Peter Attia 49:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:55 ... is not fun. And then-

Peter Attia 49:56 The-

Joe Rogan 49:56 ... the next day. (laughs)

Peter Attia 49:58 Yeah. It's... I mean, (laughs) y- basically, I, I was like... The, the thing I had going for me is I had a really good spinning back kick, right? So you could bring that from TaeKwonDo and so it kept the opponents a little bit less eager to get that close, right?

Joe Rogan 50:13 Mm-hmm.

Peter Attia 50:14 And so, um... But, of course, as you know, like, you have to be, you have to be able to keep that front foot so light.

Joe Rogan 50:19 Yeah.

Peter Attia 50:19 Otherwise it's just going to get ripped off.

Joe Rogan 50:21 Well, that's the thing about MMA is that, like, you can't... Like, very few people have that Thai style and then, k- I mean, M- Khalil Rountree's probably the very best example, especially in the Eryk Anders fight. He went to Thailand, went over there, like, b- come... After the Johnny Walker knockout, became obsessed with Muay Thai and came over. And then when he fought Eryk Anders everybody was like, "Jesus Christ, look at Khalil." He was like... He looked like a Thai fighter. Like, his, like, really light on the front leg and, like, these crazy kicks. He just became obsessed with Muay Thai. But most fighters, they're, they're like, they're doing things to mitigate leg kicks, like switching stances or throwing a lot of feints, but because of the take-down defense, because of also the take-downs themselves, like, you gotta kind of incorporate a different stance.

Peter Attia 51:09 Yeah. Well, and, and... Yeah. Y- because, because y-... It's a very exposed stance, right?

Joe Rogan 51:14 Yeah.

Peter Attia 51:14 If a guy is not gonna fight that style.

Joe Rogan 51:16 Right. Yeah.

Peter Attia 51:17 'Cause you have to be kind of front-facing to be able to stay-

Joe Rogan 51:19 Especially for wrestling.

Peter Attia 51:20 ... light on that... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:20 Especially wrestlers. I mean, if, if a guy fights with the Thai style, with the very light front leg of the wrestler, he's just gonna fucking power double him into the corner and that's, uh, that's-

Peter Attia 51:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:31 ... a wrap. Yeah. It's f- ah... It's so interesting to me, like, watching MMA, like, how people are trying to incorporate all these different techniques and there's all these adjustments that have to be made while new, new techniques come into play, like the calf kick. Like, the calf kick has kind of changed most of MMA because it's so devastating. It's like one of those techniques where you get a couple of those and all of a sudden your leg is screwed up, like you can't really move good anymore. Even if it looks like you can move good, you, you're really kind of hobbling-

Peter Attia 52:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:04 ... on that one leg. You're, you're masking it with, you know, switching of stances and moving, but you're in agony. You're-

Peter Attia 52:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:10 ... in agony. Your left leg is just completely fucked.

Peter Attia 52:13 (laughs) Man, I, I feel so fortunate that I somehow escaped 10 years of getting hit without more damage.

Joe Rogan 52:19 Yeah. I, I think that too. I mean, I don't know how much damage I actually have though. Sometimes I wonder about, like-

Peter Attia 52:24 How many concussions do you ever get? Do you know?

Joe Rogan 52:27 Oh, I've had a lot. (laughs)

Peter Attia 52:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:29 I have no idea. I have no idea. I got one skiing a couple years ago. My last time skiing. I'm like, "I'm done. I'm done." I, I fucked my knee up and I, and I fucking banged my head hard. Some lady, it was, like, really new and she didn't know what she was doing and she's, like, s- kind of sliding into the middle of the r- the trail. I'm like, "Oh, Jesus Christ." I came around this corner and as I come around this corner this lady is just, like, sliding into the trail and it's either kill her-

Peter Attia 52:58 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:58 ... or fall down. And so I went to try to get around her. I knew I was gonna fall anyway and I couldn't... There's no way. I just couldn't adjust quick enough and I fucking... The skis went out from under me. Bang, my head, the back of my head off the ground and the ne- the whole rest of the day I was just, like, confused and, like, I couldn't... My coordination was off, everything was screwy. Like, I went to get on the chair lift and I fell.

Peter Attia 53:21 Oh.

Joe Rogan 53:22 Like a old man.

Peter Attia 53:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:22 And I couldn't get back up. (laughs) A lady had to help me up. And I was like, "What is wrong with me?" And then I went, "Hey, stupid, you have a concussion." And I was like, "Oh, okay."

Peter Attia 53:33 I had a really bad one in '93 and, um... It actually... It was so bad that you could see the cerebral contusions on my head in a T- I had a CT scan.

Joe Rogan 53:43 Ooh.

Peter Attia 53:44 And I was... For two to three months I had a headache. It wouldn't go away for two to three months.

Joe Rogan 53:51 How did you get it?

Peter Attia 53:52 Uh, sparring.

Joe Rogan 53:53 Oof.

Peter Attia 53:54 Yeah, I used to do this dumb thing where... Because I was a middleweight, so I would fight... I would spar two rounds with a welterweight, two rounds with a middleweight, two rounds with a light heavyweight.

Joe Rogan 54:04 Oh my God.

Peter Attia 54:05 So I wanted to kind of... So, each... The opponent would be fresh for two rounds, so I was getting more and more tired as the opponent is getting stronger but slower.

Joe Rogan 54:13 Were you competing?

Peter Attia 54:14 Uh, no. I had stopped (laughs) competing by this point, so there was literally no reason for me to be doing this.

Joe Rogan 54:18 (laughs)

Peter Attia 54:18 This was so dumb. This was like... Like, I was in college at this point, right?

Joe Rogan 54:21 Oh, God.

Peter Attia 54:21 So I'm a college student who would still train really, really hard and on the fifth round, so the first round with that guy who was a light heavyweight... I just remember his name was Mike. Um, and this was, uh... Even by the standards of a light heavyweight, he hit like a mule. He just was... He was s-... He was... He had such a hard shot. And I just... On that particular day, I was just not feeling good, but I just didn't listen to myself, right? I was like, "You're gonna finish these six rounds no matter what," even though I felt horrible. And he got me with straight right after straight right after straight right.

Joe Rogan 54:53 (laughs)

Peter Attia 54:53 And...... at the end of those six rounds, I went down to cool off on the speed bag and just, you know, for people watching who don't know what that's like, like as, hitting a speed bag, you shouldn't feel anything. Like, there's no weight to the dumb thing, right? But just the impact of the side of my hand on the speed bag made it feel like I was getting kicked in the head.

Joe Rogan 55:11 Oh, my God.

Peter Attia 55:13 And, you know, I went home that day, passed out, had no recollection of anything. Got up the next day to run, couldn't run.

Joe Rogan 55:21 Pfff.

Peter Attia 55:21 I mean, two, so finally t- two days of this, and I tot- tot- sheepishly told my parents, I'm like, "Yeah, I think something's wrong." You know, so we, anyway, we go to the hospital, I get a CT scan, they're like, "Yeah, you got, you know, contusions on your brain."

Joe Rogan 55:34 Jesus Christ.

Peter Attia 55:34 Um, and they were like, "Wait a minute, you're an engineering student? Like, what the hell are you doing?"

Joe Rogan 55:41 Yeah.

Peter Attia 55:41 And I was like, "Dude, I've been doing this for, like, 10 years, I know what I'm doing." They're like, "You're an idiot."

Joe Rogan 55:45 Yeah, I know, uh, quite a few students who were in college who were also actively sparring in MMA, and I'd watch them get after it, and I knew that, you know, they relied on their brain, and this was just for fun. I was like, "God, it's such a risky endeavor." It's so dangerous because you're going to get hit. It's not like anything el- like, even in skiing, like, falling down and hitting your head like that is kinda rare. Like, it only happened to me once over all the years, years that I was skiing. But getting hit in the head happens every time you spar. Unless you're, like, so exceptional and Willie Pep, you're fucking-

Peter Attia 56:20 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:20 ... Pernell Whitaker out there, sh- you know?

Peter Attia 56:22 Wilferd Benitez.

Joe Rogan 56:23 You know what's interesting? I was watching, well, even Wilferd Benitez got stopped, you know?

Peter Attia 56:27 It was true.

Joe Rogan 56:27 I wa- I was watching Willie Pep, there was a documentary or a, a, a YouTube video, rather, on Willie Pep, and, uh, he actually was fine and lucid, uh, as he was older, which is really interesting. Like, that guy had more than 200 fights. And-

Peter Attia 56:44 Yeah, isn't it amazing what, like, how much those guys fought back then?

Joe Rogan 56:46 Oh, my God. But you look at, like, Sugar Ray Robinson when he was older, it was so sad. It was such a shame.

Peter Attia 56:53 Henry Armstrong was okay at the end of his life, wasn't he?

Joe Rogan 56:55 Was he?

Peter Attia 56:56 I think so. That guy was amazing.

Joe Rogan 56:57 George Foreman seems fine.

Peter Attia 56:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:59 It's crazy, you know? 'Cause, you know?

Peter Attia 57:02 Of all those old-timers, if I could go back and meet any of them, I'd like to have met Dempsey.

Joe Rogan 57:07 Really?

Peter Attia 57:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:08 I bet it was like you're meeting a wolf.

Peter Attia 57:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:10 I bet he was like a wolf. He just seemed so savage.

Peter Attia 57:14 Like, I, when I was young, I was obsessed with the historical boxing. Like, I would sort of track down the old VHS of, like, Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, Joe Lewis, all that stuff. I had n- not all of their fights, but, uh, quite a few of their fights on, on, you know, crappy old black and white VHS. But, like, Dempsey (laughs) was in a different world.

Joe Rogan 57:34 Mm.

Peter Attia 57:35 Like, when you think about how much he changed the sport.

Joe Rogan 57:38 Yeah.

Peter Attia 57:38 When he fought Jess Willard, that was an overnight change in boxing that never went back.

Joe Rogan 57:42 Mm.

Peter Attia 57:43 'Cause remember, prior to that, very different style, right? You look at Jack Johnson, it was like they never threw combinations.

Joe Rogan 57:49 Right.

Peter Attia 57:49 It was, like, one punch, one punch.

Joe Rogan 57:51 Well, they also fought, like, a hundred rounds.

Peter Attia 57:53 Yeah, exactly.

Joe Rogan 57:53 Which is crazy. They had to, like, preserve their endurance.

Peter Attia 57:56 Yeah, it was, it was easily a 45-round fight. (laughs) And they're fighting in, like, Cuba in the summer.

Joe Rogan 58:02 God.

Peter Attia 58:03 But then-

Joe Rogan 58:03 Did you ever see the video when Jack Johnson fought for the title where they converted, I think it was Reno, they, they-

Peter Attia 58:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:10 ... converted the town just to have that event there, and all the guys with their hats on?

Peter Attia 58:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:16 So men used to wear the very-

Peter Attia 58:17 Wear those white, brim-

Joe Rogan 58:19 ... specific hat.

Peter Attia 58:19 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:20 It was really, it's really weird to watch those old videos.

Peter Attia 58:24 And he was, he was unbelievable.

Joe Rogan 58:25 Oh, my God.

Peter Attia 58:26 I mean, again, he, again, like, Jack Johnson was a total step up in size and strength.

Joe Rogan 58:31 Yeah.

Peter Attia 58:32 And then Dempsey, not that big, but just ferocious.

Joe Rogan 58:36 Yeah.

Peter Attia 58:36 Um-

Joe Rogan 58:36 Dempsey only weighed, like, 190 pounds.

Peter Attia 58:38 I know. So did- He was, like, 6'1", 195.

Joe Rogan 58:40 Rocky Marciano. Rocky Marciano's-

Peter Attia 58:42 Rocky was probably 5'9".

Joe Rogan 58:44 ... 5'10".

Peter Attia 58:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:44 Yeah, 5'9", 5'10", he weighed 185 pounds.

Peter Attia 58:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:48 And just flatlining people as a heavyweight, which is crazy.

Peter Attia 58:51 Now, it's different heavyweight, right? Like, I-

Joe Rogan 58:53 Oh, yeah.

Peter Attia 58:53 Yeah, I mean, it's, it's-

Joe Rogan 58:54 People were different then. They-

Peter Attia 58:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:55 ... didn't have food. (laughs)

Peter Attia 58:57 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:58 You mean, Jack Johnson, who was, they called him the Galveston Giant, and he was 6'2".

Peter Attia 59:02 Yeah, he was huge.

Joe Rogan 59:03 I mean, but back then, that was a big deal. Look at 'em.

Peter Attia 59:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:07 Look at all those folks with the hats on. That's what drives, I mean, that's so weird that that style was so, it was so prevalent. It was everywhere, that, wearing that hat, that stupid fucking hat.

Narrator 59:21 It's night, uh, uh, daytime too, though. Maybe they needed it 'cause they didn't have sunglasses and their Sprite.

Joe Rogan 59:27 Oh, yeah. Right. Probably.

Narrator 59:27 Maybe. I don't know.

Joe Rogan 59:28 Yeah. I'm definitely think that played a part, but they also had one of those hats.

Narrator 59:32 Sure.

Peter Attia 59:32 It's so interesting-

Joe Rogan 59:34 (laughs)

Narrator 59:34 (laughs)

Peter Attia 59:34 ... to think, like, you know, when you think about what the world was like in terms of how racist it was-

Joe Rogan 59:39 Oh, my God.

Peter Attia 59:39 ... and how much the establishment hated Jack Johnson, and, and, uh, you know, as you know, I mean, basically after he finally lost, they were like, "Okay, that's it. No more black heavyweights."

Joe Rogan 59:50 And even when he lost-

Peter Attia 59:50 "... get to fight for the-"

Joe Rogan 59:51 ... it looked a lot like he threw that fight.

Peter Attia 59:53 I know.

Joe Rogan 59:54 If you go-

Peter Attia 59:54 Notice his hand-

Joe Rogan 59:55 Yeah.

Peter Attia 59:55 ... up there shading himself from the sun.

Joe Rogan 59:57 Yeah.

Peter Attia 59:57 What's his l- Yeah, uh, you, you never know. They might've been threatening him, right?

Joe Rogan 1:00:00 Exactly. They were probably threatening him.

Peter Attia 1:00:02 There, there, there. Th- that was it there at the bottom. I saw that picture. Um...

Narrator 1:00:04 Oh, it's up there. This one?

Peter Attia 1:00:06 Yep, that one.

Joe Rogan 1:00:07 Yeah.

Peter Attia 1:00:08 Yeah, so that's Jess Willard standing over him, and he kinda looked like he was like, "Yeah, I'm gonna..."

Joe Rogan 1:00:14 Yeah.

Peter Attia 1:00:14 Um-

Joe Rogan 1:00:14 Yeah. It's, it's very likely in a lot of people's eyes that he threw that fight. I mean, uh, you know, when you get to a certain point in time, you're just tired of fighting off all these fucking white racists. You maybe just take the money and lay down and just, uh, just fade off in the distance, you just want it to end, you know? I mean, the guy was persecuted his entire life. You mean- and the level of hate that he experienced, we will-

Peter Attia 1:00:38 Yeah, it's so-

Joe Rogan 1:00:38 ... probably never be able to understand it. Because, you know, you're really only a few decades removed from the Civil War. And this guy's the heavyweight champ of the world, the first ever black heavyweight champion. And also-

Peter Attia 1:00:49 And how big was boxing at the time?

Joe Rogan 1:00:51 Yeah.

Peter Attia 1:00:51 Like, the significance of being-

Joe Rogan 1:00:52 Oh, yeah.

Peter Attia 1:00:52 ... heavyweight champion of the world.

Joe Rogan 1:00:53 It was everything. And he looks unbeatable. That was the other thing. It wasn't just that he was the first black heavyweight champion. He was the first black heavyweight champion, but he, he was like Mike Tyson in his prime.

Peter Attia 1:01:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:05 It's like a whole new level of heavyweight.

Peter Attia 1:01:09 And, of course, y- y- you know, I mean, we could debate that forever and ever is Ali or Louis, who was the best heavyweight of all time? Um, but I think for... I mean, I don't know. I- I- I, I'm alwa- I always have such sadness over the fact that we never got to see Ali fight from '67 to '71.

Joe Rogan 1:01:27 Yeah. It's true. Tha- those three years where he protested-

Peter Attia 1:01:31 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 1:01:31 ... the Vietnam War, in many ways that cemented Ali's legacy, because he was such a cultural icon that he was like, "You know what? Fuck you. I'm not going to Vietnam. You guys are out of your fucking minds. I... No Viet Cong ever said anything bad to me. I'm not going to Vietnam and killing people. Fuck you." And they just removed him from boxing. They wouldn't let him box for years. And by the time he boxed again, people were so happy to see him again, because they knew he was right. They knew that war was bullshit. They knew it was wrong. And he, he became who he was. The last... When he fought Cleveland "Big- Big Cat" Williams-

Peter Attia 1:02:10 I was just about to say-

Joe Rogan 1:02:11 Yeah.

Peter Attia 1:02:11 ... that is the greatest display of a- in any division, any weight, at any time, just watch Ali versus Williams-

Joe Rogan 1:02:20 Yeah.

Peter Attia 1:02:20 ... November 1966.

Joe Rogan 1:02:22 Mm-hmm.

Peter Attia 1:02:22 You can find that full fight on YouTube.

Joe Rogan 1:02:23 Oh, yeah.

Peter Attia 1:02:24 It's in pretty decent resolution.

Joe Rogan 1:02:25 We've played it multiple times on this podcast.

Peter Attia 1:02:27 It is insane.

Joe Rogan 1:02:28 (laughs)

Peter Attia 1:02:28 I'll tell, I'll tell you a funny story. So I have, I used to have in my old office in San Diego a big art print on the wall of that fight.

Joe Rogan 1:02:36 Oh, wow.

Peter Attia 1:02:36 So of the knockout punch.

Joe Rogan 1:02:38 Mm-hmm.

Peter Attia 1:02:38 So one day, it was a Friday afternoon, one of my analysts was in my office and we were... You know, he's, at the time, he was probably, like, 25 years old, right? And, "We're doing something, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And I don't know what made me think this, but I looked up at the picture and I was like, "Hey, do you know who that is? Who... You know?" And he's like, "Uh, is that Muhammad Ali?" And I was like, "Yeah, that's Muhammad Ali." (laughs) Like, "Isn't it interesting that you wouldn't immediately recognize that?" Uh, and I explained the significance, and I said, "That's him knocking out this guy named Cleveland Williams and this is the whole story of Cleveland Williams." Then I said, "Let's pull up the fight," and we watched the fight. You know, it's a three-round fight. The next day, Ali died.

Joe Rogan 1:03:15 Wow.

Peter Attia 1:03:16 So I text... I- I emailed him the next morning, 'cause I found out that morning, I was like, "Hey, Dan. Just so you know, Muhammad Ali died last night." How weird is that?

Joe Rogan 1:03:23 That is weir- weir- he was a cautionary tale, right? 'Cause the amount of punishment that he endured late in his life and to see him with Parkinson's, when... And, you know, I remember having this ar- argument with someone who said, "No, no, no, he's got Parkinson's disease. It has nothing to do with boxing." I went, "Shut the fuck up. Shut the fuck up. You don't know what you're..." Why... How... What, are you examining him? Like why are you saying... You just don't want it to have anything to do with him.

Peter Attia 1:03:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:47 You watch his fight with Larry Holmes. Tell me, tell me you don't think that he endured brain damage in that fight. Watch, watch his fight with, uh... Who, who else was-

Peter Attia 1:03:57 Well, so- so basically, everything.

Joe Rogan 1:03:58 Trevor Berbick.

Peter Attia 1:03:59 Yeah, Trevor Berbick, um, Le- even Leon Spinks.

Joe Rogan 1:04:02 Yeah.

Peter Attia 1:04:03 Uh, and certainly Holmes. The, uh... I mean, he never should have fought after his...

Joe Rogan 1:04:08 No.

Peter Attia 1:04:08 He should've retired after Foreman. Um...

Joe Rogan 1:04:10 Yeah.

Peter Attia 1:04:11 'Cause the beatings he took thereafter, and in fact going into the Holmes fight, I mean, his doctor, um... By that point Ferdie Pacheco had left. He couldn't stand it anymore. So Ferdie Pacheco was no longer his doctor.

Joe Rogan 1:04:22 Oh, really?

Peter Attia 1:04:22 No, no. He was like, "This is so unethical. I cannot be involved. What you guys are doing to this man-"

Joe Rogan 1:04:26 Hmm.

Peter Attia 1:04:27 "... is inhumane." And, of course, y- you know, what was, what was his manager's name at this point? Herbert Muhammad. Um, remember, the son of Elijah Muhammad was still his manager, and they had pumped him so full of th- uh, T4, levothyroxine, thyroid medication, to speed up his metabolism. Like, he went into that fight basically with exophthalmos. I mean, his eyes were, like, basically bulging out of his head. He was so hyperthyroid in that fight. Like, they could've killed him, right? Like, they could've just killed him 'cause he would've had arrhythmia.

Joe Rogan 1:04:55 Why didn't they do that... Was he overweight? Why'd they do-

Peter Attia 1:04:58 (sighs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:58 ... that with T4?

Peter Attia 1:04:59 They just had this belief that, oh, he- he- he needs more thyroid hormone to, yeah, speed up his metabolism, and of course he's always going into camp overweight at this point.

Joe Rogan 1:05:07 Yeah.

Peter Attia 1:05:07 And needs more energy, right? So the, the thinking is, "Well, more thyroid hormone will make him, uh, you know, make him have more energy." But, uh, I mean, I- I- I remember reading one of the biographies of Ali. I think it was... It might have been Thomas Hauser's biography, where he goes into pretty good detail on the state of his, um, medical care at the end of his career and- and just how horrible it was.

Joe Rogan 1:05:30 (sighs) God, it's a story as old as time. The fighter that keeps hanging on.

Peter Attia 1:05:36 That's the other thing I kind of respect about Hagler. As much as I just-

Joe Rogan 1:05:38 Mm-hmm.

Peter Attia 1:05:38 ... hated the fact that he retired and didn't, you know, come back and smoke Leonard. He just said, "That's it. I'm done."

Joe Rogan 1:05:45 Yeah, but that's also what fueled the conspiracy theorist in me, because he went to Italy.

Peter Attia 1:05:49 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:05:50 Because I'm like, "Hold the fuck on." So his managers and his trainers were the Petronelli brothers.

Peter Attia 1:05:56 That's right, Goodie and Pat.

Joe Rogan 1:05:57 Yeah. They're boxing trainers who are fucking Italian shit.

Peter Attia 1:06:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:06:02 The odds of them knowing someone in the mob are quite high.

Peter Attia 1:06:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:06:06 Okay? And then you have this fight with Leonard where, man, even to me watching it, 'cause I watched it, um... That was back when they had-

Peter Attia 1:06:15 Closed circuit.

Joe Rogan 1:06:16 ... closed circuit.

Peter Attia 1:06:16 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:06:16 Yeah.

Peter Attia 1:06:17 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:06:17 So for people who don't know what that means, you would go to the movie theater or you would go to, uh, you know, any kind of a theater that would have a large screen, and you would pay money to go watch the fight in an audience.

Peter Attia 1:06:28 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:06:28 And so, uh, I actually watched quite a few fights like that.

Peter Attia 1:06:31 I watched Tyson-Spinks like that.

Joe Rogan 1:06:32 Oh, wow.

Peter Attia 1:06:33 How, how good, how good a use of money was that?

Joe Rogan 1:06:35 Wow. Yeah. (laughs)

Peter Attia 1:06:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:06:37 30 seconds-

Peter Attia 1:06:37 91 seconds.

Joe Rogan 1:06:38 ... whatever it was. Um, but watching that live, I was like, "I feel like he's, like, not trying to hurt him." It was weird. It was like the- the- the punches didn't seem the same. It almost seemed like he was, like, taking something off the punches. You know? And I know Leonard-

Peter Attia 1:06:54 Well, certainly the first four rounds.

Joe Rogan 1:06:56 ... was moving a lot. Yeah.

Peter Attia 1:06:56 The first four rounds, I didn't understand where he... why he was being tentative.

Joe Rogan 1:07:00 Well, I mean...

Peter Attia 1:07:02 'Cause he woke up in round five.

Joe Rogan 1:07:03 Yeah.

Peter Attia 1:07:03 But in a 12-round fight, it's hard... You know. He's... I... Like I said, I still believe he won.

Joe Rogan 1:07:09 Yeah, I believe he won too.

Peter Attia 1:07:09 Uh, seven rounds, but-

Joe Rogan 1:07:11 ... I was shocked at the decision after it was over, but I r- I remember going home, thinking, "God, just seemed like, uh, he didn't have any pop on his punches," which for Hagler is crazy, 'cause Hagler was a fucking murderous puncher. It just seemed like he didn't, didn't try to hurt him. It seems crazy. But then the decision comes and then Hagler just disappeared and went to Italy and became a movie star.

Peter Attia 1:07:34 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:07:34 And I was like, "Oh."

Peter Attia 1:07:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:07:37 "Well, what a great deal."

Peter Attia 1:07:39 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:07:39 I mean- (laughs)

Peter Attia 1:07:40 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:07:40 ... how else does he become a fucking movie star in Italy? He goes into Italy, does the worst movies you've ever seen in your life. You ever watch those movies?

Peter Attia 1:07:47 Nope, never watched them.

Joe Rogan 1:07:48 Here, here's some of them. (laughs)

Peter Attia 1:07:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:07:51 They were so dumb. These movies were so dumb. Like, look at this. (laughs)

Peter Attia 1:07:58 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:07:58 And never fought again. But never fought again. I mean, just, uh, he, he did these, uh, cornball movies and, you know, was like the Jean-Claude Van Damme of Italy. They were horrible movies.

Peter Attia 1:08:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:12 I mean, I don't even know if he ever learned Italian. He just went over there- (laughs)

Peter Attia 1:08:17 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:17 ... had a good fucking time. Look at these. They throw punches and f- people are flying through the air. It's l- these are so bad. You gotta remember, like, Italy, that was where they... Look, he punched right through his chest. (laughs) Italy was where, um, they did all those, uh-

Peter Attia 1:08:33 He was so handsome, though.

Joe Rogan 1:08:34 ... Clint Eastwood movies. Oh my God, so handsome.

Peter Attia 1:08:35 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:36 And, you know, really, never, never was compromised from his fighting career. It's cr- incredible. Yeah.

Peter Attia 1:08:42 Yeah, it breaks my heart that he died so prematurely.

Joe Rogan 1:08:43 And yeah, he was hospitalized after he got vaccinated. Tommy Hearns put it on his Instagram that he was in, in the hospital because of a side effect of the vaccine. It's one of those things that's, like, not really talked about 'cause no one's n- no one's sure if it's... That... Is that what happened to him?

Peter Attia 1:08:57 I remember the day he died, seeing that.

Joe Rogan 1:09:00 Yeah.

Peter Attia 1:09:00 And then, actually it was just sort of weird. Like, a couple of months ago, I was just thinking about it again, I went to his Wiki page, no mention of it.

Joe Rogan 1:09:08 Well, it's pretty obvious what's going on there. You know, just the amount of people that had, who have had issues with the vaccine versus the amount of people reported. I- i- like, I don't know what the real numbers are. I don't think anybody does, because there's a lot of reluctance to talk about it. It's very interesting. You know, I've had friends that had vaccine injuries that went to the doctor and the doctors didn't want to report them in the VAERS. It's... The whole thing is very weird. But Tommy Hearns wrote on his Instagram b- s- I think, believe it was his Instagram, that to p- pray for Marvin, because they were still friends even after-

Peter Attia 1:09:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:44 ... that Marvin was in the hospital because of a side effect of the vax. Again, I don't know if that's true. I don't know if Tommy was wrong, you know? I don't know if he was incorrect.

Peter Attia 1:09:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:53 But something happened and he died. Yeah. I would have loved to met him. But what a great way to end a career. Just go, "That's it. Done. See you." So many guys just hang out too long, you know? There's so many guys that just get battered. Did you watch the, uh, Benavidez-Plant fight this weekend?

Peter Attia 1:10:15 I, I have stopped watching boxing altogether. I don't know anything about the sport, Joe, to, to be honest with you.

Joe Rogan 1:10:20 Really?

Peter Attia 1:10:21 It's really weird. For someone who was so obsessed with the sport growing up, basically around 2000 I just stopped.

Joe Rogan 1:10:31 Really?

Peter Attia 1:10:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:32 How come?

Peter Attia 1:10:33 I mean, I think part of it is being in residency, I just didn't have the time. Like, basically all the things I loved, like I didn't watch Formula 1. You know, I kind of stopped watching Formula 1 at that time.

Joe Rogan 1:10:41 No time?

Peter Attia 1:10:41 No. I think by '97 was the last year I watched F1, until I got back into it again, like, a decade later. Uh, stopped watching boxing. Didn't watch a single Super Bowl, let alone a single football game. Um, yeah, I just went completely off the grid for a decade.

Joe Rogan 1:10:55 I guess that makes sense, though. You kind of have to, just to focus. You don't have the time for that kind of recreation.

Peter Attia 1:11:03 Well, I mean, I used all my rec time to train. I mean, it was sort of like-

Joe Rogan 1:11:06 Yeah.

Peter Attia 1:11:06 ... I was gonna sort of... Swimming was the thing I was doing, so.

Joe Rogan 1:11:09 Mm-hmm.

Peter Attia 1:11:10 Tha- that, that takes up so much time.

Joe Rogan 1:11:11 Do you still watch UFC?

Peter Attia 1:11:13 I never have.

Joe Rogan 1:11:14 Never have watched the UFC? Not one?

Peter Attia 1:11:16 D- d- I mean, I would love to go with you. You've extended me the invitation many times. I, I, I will go at some point. Um-

Joe Rogan 1:11:22 You should go to Miami next weekend.

Peter Attia 1:11:24 Well, I can't. I'm going to see Taylor Swift. (snaps fingers) (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:11:27 (laughs) That's the most opposite UFC thing ever.

Peter Attia 1:11:30 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:11:30 Fu- it's so funny that you're a Swifty. You've become a Swifty.

Peter Attia 1:11:35 I, I'm, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm enjoying embracing and supporting my daughter's obsession with Taylor Swift. We're gonna see two shows, actually. We're going to-

Joe Rogan 1:11:42 Oh, boy.

Peter Attia 1:11:42 We're going to Houston and Arlington.

Joe Rogan 1:11:44 Oh my goodness.

Peter Attia 1:11:45 Well, because we got lucky, right? Like...

Joe Rogan 1:11:47 (laughs) You didn't get lucky.

Peter Attia 1:11:48 No, no, for me, that's-

Joe Rogan 1:11:49 You stop it. (laughs)

Peter Attia 1:11:55 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:11:55 What would you rather do? Let me ask you this.

Peter Attia 1:11:58 Oh, I'd probably rather go see Taylor Swift.

Joe Rogan 1:12:00 Really?

Peter Attia 1:12:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:01 Interesting.

Peter Attia 1:12:02 I think it's gonna be an unbelievable show. I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:12:04 I'm sure it is.

Peter Attia 1:12:05 Well, what did, what did your girls say?

Joe Rogan 1:12:07 Well, they loved it.

Peter Attia 1:12:08 You wouldn't go?

Joe Rogan 1:12:10 If I had to, I'd go.

Peter Attia 1:12:13 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:12:13 It's not that I don't think Taylor Swift is a talented artist. She's very talented. I like some of her songs. Uh, it's not my thing, though.

Peter Attia 1:12:20 Would you have Taylor on the podcast? Would that be fun?

Joe Rogan 1:12:22 Sure. Sure. She's brilliant.

Peter Attia 1:12:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:23 And she's also an amazing songwriter. I love her dedication and the fact that, like, you know what I mean? She's at the top of the heap. Anybody that's at the top of the heap of anything-

Peter Attia 1:12:31 But she's, and she's so talented.

Joe Rogan 1:12:33 Yeah.

Peter Attia 1:12:33 Like, she's... I, I... She blows my mind, actually.

Joe Rogan 1:12:36 Yeah.

Peter Attia 1:12:36 Like, five years ago when my daughter was into her, I was like, "Ah, whatever." Like, uh, it didn't... But if you... I mean, not to get too down the rabbit hole, but if you look at the progression of her music and how it's grown up with her, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:12:47 Hm.

Peter Attia 1:12:47 You think about what, like, what she was doing in, you know, circa 2008, 2007-

Joe Rogan 1:12:52 Right.

Peter Attia 1:12:52 ... versus what she's doing today and, and the lyrics. I mean, I'm super impressed, and, uh, and also just, like, her commitment to her fans is pretty amazing.

Joe Rogan 1:13:00 Well, my wife and my daughter went to see her at the giant Raiders stadium in Vegas and she sent me a video of, like, what the place looks like. I'm like, "Oh my God." Chappelle and I have talked about doing a gig there.

Peter Attia 1:13:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:13 That would be wild.... doing a gig in front of 60,000 people just went bananas.

Peter Attia 1:13:16 Have you done ... Like, what ... Do, do comedians play huge things like Wembley and stuff like that?

Joe Rogan 1:13:21 The biggest place Dave and I have done is 25,000. We did, uh ... We sold out the Tacoma Dome-

Peter Attia 1:13:27 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:13:28 ... in Tacoma. That was ... We broke the attendance record for the Tacoma Dome, and that was like 25,000-something people. That's nuts. This is ... It's wi- ... Hearing laughs from 25,000 people is so surreal. It's so surreal. Like, I remember one time-

Peter Attia 1:13:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:44 ... in the middle of one of my bits, you know, I hit a punchline, everybody's laughing, and I just start laughing. I'm like, "This is so (laughs) crazy," 'cause the laughs are so loud. It's so n- ... You're looking around. And we're in the round, too, right? It's r-