Joe Rogan Experience #1961 - Peter Attia

1. 0:00 – 1:05

   Studio banter: neon sign, UFO aesthetic, and The Mothership vibe

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) The sign is made by this company, Roadhouse Relics. It's, uh, uh, they make, like, these beautiful neon cool-looking funky signs. And my buddy Brigham actually bought it for me, like, when I moved here. And I was like, "Wow, what a cool sign." Like, wouldn't that be nice if it was, like, in the studio behind me? And so it wasn't on purpose.

   4. PAPeter Attia0:30

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:30

      It wasn't by design at all, and so once, uh, once he did it. But the UFO was his idea.

   6. PAPeter Attia0:36

      I don't know. Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:36

      Yeah. It was before we even decided-

   8. PAPeter Attia0:38

      Before you had The Mothership.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:38

      ... to call it The Mothership, yeah.

   10. PAPeter Attia0:40

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:41

       But I'm easy to figure out. I mean, I got a fucking Bob Lazar UFO on the desk. I got fucking stars on the ceilings. I have a alien head in the sky. Yeah, I'm a dork.

   12. PAPeter Attia0:52

       (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:52

       It's easy to f- I mean, it's not like, "Wow, how did he know you like UFOs?"

   14. PAPeter Attia0:57

       (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:58

       (laughs)

   16. PAPeter Attia0:58

       (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:58

       I'm fucking obsessed. I'm absolutely obsessed. I think it's the only thing that's gonna save us.

   18. PAPeter Attia1:04

       (laughs)

2. 1:05 – 3:46

   Launching 'Outlive': six-year writing process and major rewrites

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:05

      So, uh, Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity, this is a big one, buddy. Look at this. Look at all this. There's a lot of information in this.

   2. PAPeter Attia1:13

      Not a lot of pictures.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:14

      No pictures?

   4. PAPeter Attia1:15

      No, there's some. Uh-

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:16

      I need pictures. (laughs)

   6. PAPeter Attia1:17

      Uh, there's some. There's some.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:19

      (laughs) No. It's, uh... Um, is it out now?

   8. PAPeter Attia1:22

      Y- Out today.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:23

      Today? Beautiful. How long did it take you to write this?

   10. PAPeter Attia1:25

       Six years.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:26

       Wow. Six years. And I know that's like s- That's, like, six years of actual work too.

   12. PAPeter Attia1:33

       Yeah. I mean, I rewrote it twice, so-

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:35

       Oof.

   14. PAPeter Attia1:35

       ... there was kind of version one, version two. This is version three.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:38

       What did you change?

   16. PAPeter Attia1:39

       So the first version, um, got basically thrown out by the publisher 'cause they said, "This is way too technical. There's no narrative. There's no story. It's being written to just a very sl- you know, tiny sliver of the world."

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:53

       Mm.

   18. PAPeter Attia1:53

       Basically, it's like the book you would write to scientists or maybe physicians.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:58

       Right.

   20. PAPeter Attia1:58

       So then there was kind of version two. Um, so, so that vers- that version is completely gone. I don't think there's anything from that that made it into version two.

   21. JRJoe Rogan2:05

       Wow.

   22. PAPeter Attia2:06

       Version two was the skeleton of this book, but it was about 50% longer. I mean, it was a massive book. And that's the kind of version that I'd say was circa 2020. And this version is just basically better 'cause it's shorter. A lot of stuff got taken out of it that I think was not absolutely necessary. Um, and I just sharpened my thinking. I mean, I think that's what writing is. I think writing just makes you ask the question, like, "Is this act- Is this necessary?"

   23. JRJoe Rogan2:37

       Mm.

   24. PAPeter Attia2:37

       "And does this, does this help the reader understand something? And if not, get it out." So the, the expression is kill your babies. You gotta be able-

   25. JRJoe Rogan2:43

       Yes.

   26. PAPeter Attia2:43

       ... to, like, read something that you've worked really hard on and put a ton of time into and say, "I gotta nuke it."

   27. JRJoe Rogan2:50

       Yeah. I think that's, uh, with everything.

   28. PAPeter Attia2:52

       Yeah, totally.

   29. JRJoe Rogan2:52

       With fiction, with comedy, with e- With... I'm sure it's that way with music. You just... There's a certain point in time-

   30. PAPeter Attia2:57

       Yeah.
3. 3:46 – 5:02

   The cut appendix: drugs, supplements, and longevity interventions left out

   1. PAPeter Attia3:46

      And there was a whole appendix that never made it in, so one of the things I wanted to do was pick, like, the 20 most important drugs, hormones, supplements that I think are relevant and write "just," quote unquote, 10 pages on each.

   2. JRJoe Rogan3:59

      Mm.

   3. PAPeter Attia4:00

      And... Or, I didn't, I didn't go into it thinking it would be 10 pages. I thought, "I'm just going to write the essentials on these 10 things." You know, kind of rapamycin, metformin, you know, nicotinamide riboside, you know, those sorts of things. But then it turned out it was taking me, like, you know, eight to 10 pages per, and the publisher's like, "Yeah, there's no way you can have a 200-page appendix on a 450-page book."

   4. JRJoe Rogan4:21

      (laughs)

   5. PAPeter Attia4:21

      So, (laughs) like, all of that work, gone, just scrapped.

   6. JRJoe Rogan4:25

      Oh, no.

   7. PAPeter Attia4:25

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan4:25

      Have you thought about making that, like, a separate guide?

   9. PAPeter Attia4:29

      Y- Yeah. It, uh, m- maybe down the line I'll just publish it on my website or something like that.

   10. JRJoe Rogan4:33

       Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

   11. PAPeter Attia4:34

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan4:34

       Well, it seems like it's very valuable information though.

   13. PAPeter Attia4:37

       Yeah. I mean, it's... (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan4:40

       (laughs)

   15. PAPeter Attia4:40

       I'm talk- I'm ready, I'm ready to put the book aside for a minute.

   16. JRJoe Rogan4:42

       You're so burnt out. (laughs)

   17. PAPeter Attia4:44

       Yeah. I'm totally...

   18. JRJoe Rogan4:45

       Yeah.

   19. PAPeter Attia4:45

       Although my wife says, like, the last few weeks, she's like, "It feels like the weight of the world is off your shoulders."

   20. JRJoe Rogan4:51

       Mm.

   21. PAPeter Attia4:52

       You know? Just-

   22. JRJoe Rogan4:52

       Yeah. Well, it is... When you have something that's a big project, it's very difficult to not let it consume your entire life.

   23. PAPeter Attia5:00

       Yeah. Absolutely.

4. 5:02 – 7:41

   Self-talk, perfectionism, and early roots of harsh inner criticism

   1. JRJoe Rogan5:02

      You know, I was watching this clip of you on Huberman. It was really fascinating 'cause you were talking about, um, self-talk, the way you talk to-

   2. PAPeter Attia5:10

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan5:10

      ... yourself and about how you adjusted that. I thought that was very, very interesting that you would, you would get so... You know, the, one of the problems with people like yourself, I guess, myself too, people that get, like, really into things, is, uh, you get obsessed. And then you get very hard on yourself if you're, if things aren't going well or if it's not going exactly the way you want it to go, the way, you know, if you're not using proper technique, if you're not doing... And then for you, you had a real problem where you were, like, very hypercritical of yourself.

   4. PAPeter Attia5:45

      Yeah. Uh, and, and, I mean, it was actually out loud. I mean, I would just-

   5. JRJoe Rogan5:49

      Hm.

   6. PAPeter Attia5:49

      ... verbally berate myself whenever I made mistakes. Um, and, and I, I don't th- I, I don't remember not experiencing this. Right? So this is something that seemed-

   7. JRJoe Rogan6:00

      Your whole life.

   8. PAPeter Attia6:00

      Yeah. This is like, seven-year-old Peter was doing this too.

   9. JRJoe Rogan6:03

      Wow.

   10. PAPeter Attia6:04

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan6:04

       Where'd you get that from?

   12. PAPeter Attia6:06

       I mean-I, I know it had to do with sort of, you know, various defects in my, you know, my life as a child and, and I, I think there was just... I think everybody responds kind of differently to... I, I, the word trauma's a bit loaded, so I wanna be kinda careful using it.

   13. JRJoe Rogan6:21

       Mm-hmm.

   14. PAPeter Attia6:22

       But I think we all experience trauma. We adapt- We're highly adaptable, right? So everybody adapts to trauma very well, I think, for the most part. But there are maladaptations and I think one of my, you know, issues, I think, growing up, was just a total inferiority complex, right? This feeling like not good enough. Um, you know, looked down upon constantly. You know, all that sort of stuff. Like, a lot of this is very typical immigrant stuff, by the way. Like when you're kinda the only non-white person in your middle class neighborhood, you're, you're different than everybody else. Um, look, I think that's what drew me into sports like boxing and martial arts at such a young age, right? It was kind of like the, "I'll be different. I'll be better. I'll be tougher." All those things. So somehow I just think that that, that narrative got harsher and harsher as I got older and older. And it didn't matter, you know, what sort of accolades came with it 'cause, 'cause it does produce good results sometimes. You know?

   15. JRJoe Rogan7:20

       Yeah.

   16. PAPeter Attia7:20

       You do get better. Um, but I think, you know, where I got to is just the, the benefits were no longer close to compensating for the costs. And I think the biggest costs were the costs, not just on me, which were there all along, but it's how it kinda spreads into your relationships with other people. Most, most importantly, your family.

5. 7:41 – 12:40

   Joe’s approach: cutting negative self-talk to improve performance

   1. JRJoe Rogan7:41

      Yeah, I realized at an early age that there's zero benefit in being hard on yourself because I'm, I am, no matter what, I'm a perfectionist and I get very angry at myself. There's zero benefit to self-talk that's negative.

   2. PAPeter Attia7:58

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan7:58

      So I, I cut that out of my life, like very early on.

   4. PAPeter Attia8:02

      And how, how did you do that?

   5. JRJoe Rogan8:04

      Well, uh, (sighs) one of the... I mean from, you know, age 15 on, I was, uh, very, um, very active in martial arts competition, right? So the- my whole focus was on that and my whole focus was on getting better. And anything that would somehow or another get in the way of me getting better, I cut it out. Whether it was partying, drinking, spending too much time with girls. Whatever it was, I'm like, "That's gotta go 'cause that's getting in the way." And, um, I found that negative self-talk gets in the way because there's-

   6. PAPeter Attia8:38

      Mm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan8:38

      The reason why you have negative, or I had negative self-talk, was because I was, uh, insecure and I was very ambitious and I, uh, really wanted to be really good and I wanted to be really good immediately. I didn't wanna wait. But I realized somewhere along the way that the negative, in any way, shape, or form, I didn't need it because I was so driven, like, that the negative was just getting in the way. It was like I thought that it was helping me because I was like, "Come on, you fucking idiot." Like, "Get going." But then I realized like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, that's not, that isn't, there's no benefit to that because all the- You already have, like, this crazy desire to get better, so just don't ever be shitty to yourself and instead concentrate all your energy on what you're doing wrong and technique.

   8. PAPeter Attia9:29

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan9:30

      And that's why my technique got so good so quickly is because I didn't, I didn't spend any time with self-lo- Like, I didn't spend any time after losses, loathing myself. All I wanted to do was get back to the gym, but I just figured it out on my own and I don't know how. You know, there's, like, there's been some moments in, in my life, in co- in comedy and in martial arts where I realize I have a very, I had an error in thinking and I made adjustments, and that was one of, that was an adjustment that I made, like, as a tee- as a young teenager I made that adjustment.

   10. PAPeter Attia10:05

       That, that's fortunate. I mean, I, I, like, I'm 47. I'm 50 now, but I was 47 when I figured this out.

   11. JRJoe Rogan10:11

       Yeah.

   12. PAPeter Attia10:11

       And I didn't necessarily figure it out on my own. I mean, it had to be sort of made apparently clear to me. So the, you know, (laughs) if I'd figured this out when I was 17, I would've saved myself and everybody else a lot of pain.

   13. JRJoe Rogan10:22

       (laughs) Yeah, it's hard, man, because if you're, if you're ambitious, if you have goals, if you're very into what you're doing, you're very focused on whatever the endeavor is, whenever you have a setback, it's, it's really frustrating and it, it's infuriating and you can, you can get very angry at yourself, especially if you're doing something that you know better. Like if you make an error, whether it's with archery or whether it's with-

   14. PAPeter Attia10:53

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan10:53

       ... anything that you do that you're really interested in. If you, you know that it was a lapse of concentration or you're tired or you just weren't focused on it entirely and you fuck something up, it's like, "God dammit, you fucking dumbass piece of shit!" Like, it's so easy to do that, but you can't let that happen because it's a bad use of fuel. It really is. It's a bad use of fuel. I mean, I'll still occasionally yell if I fuck something up. Like, "Fucking fuck!" But I'm not mad at myself.

   16. PAPeter Attia11:27

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan11:27

       It's just energy.

   18. PAPeter Attia11:28

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan11:28

       I just have to fucking get it out, you know? Just rah! I just gotta fucking let it out. But, um, I think thinking of yourself as a fucking loser is never good. Like zero time. There's no benefit, ever. You're always gonna have frustration. You're always gonna... But you have to also understand the process. Like, in the, while things are going poorly, it's very difficult to, to recognize that it's part of the process. It's so hard. It's so hard when things are going poorly, whether it's with stand-up comedy or martial arts or anything. When things suck, when things aren't going well, it's so difficult to see past that moment, but you just have to.And over time, with m- many, many different instances of this taking place, you recognize, like, "It's okay. I know you feel like shit. I know you feel like the world is ending, but it's not. Not only is it not ending, this is, like, totally inconsequential, and this is actually good for you because this frustration will add to your motivation, it'll add to your inspiration, and you'll eventually get better." But (exhales) tell that to a 16-year-old. It's fucking so hard, man. It's so hard.

6. 12:40 – 15:59

   When perfectionism becomes addiction: performance as self-worth

   1. PAPeter Attia12:40

      I actually, uh, I'll tell you, in me, it got worse over time, like, as bad as it was when I was young. And when I was young, I mean, I was, it was so... I can't imagine what my parents went through. Like, I don't think I went one month without putting my fist through a wall at home.

   2. JRJoe Rogan12:52

      Wow.

   3. PAPeter Attia12:52

      I mean, I got s-, I got so good at doing drywall.

   4. JRJoe Rogan12:55

      (laughs)

   5. PAPeter Attia12:55

      Eh, I, I'm serious. Like... 'Cause that's, like, my parents were like, "Well, you're gonna have to fix that, right?"

   6. JRJoe Rogan12:59

      No.

   7. PAPeter Attia12:59

      So it's like, uh, uh, I basically became, like, a tradesman on the side.

   8. JRJoe Rogan13:02

      Why didn't they just get you a punching bag? (laughs)

   9. PAPeter Attia13:03

      I did. I mean, I had every punching bag. I mean, I-

   10. JRJoe Rogan13:05

       You just didn't care, and you just hit the wall.

   11. PAPeter Attia13:06

       I, uh... 'Cause if I got pissed while I was in my bedroom, there wasn't a punching bag there, like, boom.

   12. JRJoe Rogan13:10

       Wow.

   13. PAPeter Attia13:11

       Um, I mean, how many... Like, even, even in college, like, you know, writing computer programs and, like, if I, I, screw up some line of code, like, I would break my mouse or break my keyboard or whatever.

   14. JRJoe Rogan13:20

       Wow.

   15. PAPeter Attia13:20

       I mean, it was just, like, so pathologically destructive. Um, (laughs) and, you know, it just, it just got so much worse, you know? It just... Which is r- really frightening.

   16. JRJoe Rogan13:32

       Do you think it got so much worse because you accomplished so many things and your drive just increased with the amount of success that you had and the, the, the, the different things you'd accomplished in your life, whereas when you were younger, it was almost like you would, you experienced fuck-ups and success, whereas as you've gotten older, when a fuck-up does happen, it's just so infuriating because you, you should be past it?

   17. PAPeter Attia14:00

       That's a good question. I... That might be the case. It... My thinking is a little bit different, which is, um, there is an addiction at play here, right?

   18. JRJoe Rogan14:10

       Hm.

   19. PAPeter Attia14:10

       So, so if you, if you shift the thinking of this to that of addiction mindset, um... And it's hard to sometimes think of perfectionism as an addiction because it doesn't produce immediately the same negative consequences as the addictions to, you know, alcohol, drugs, and gambling, and sort of-

   20. JRJoe Rogan14:26

       Yeah.

   21. PAPeter Attia14:26

       ... the less socially acceptable addictions. But I think what happens with most people who are addicted to something is their appetite for that addiction gets higher and higher. And so, you know, if you're addicted to alcohol, like, an alcoholic habituates to a certain amount of alcohol. They have to drink more and more and more. And similarly, the need for achievement grew more and more and more.

   22. JRJoe Rogan14:52

       Ah.

   23. PAPeter Attia14:52

       And one of my therapists explained this to me so well, and I was like, "That is the most frightening, brilliant analogy I've ever heard." She said, "You know, your entire self-esteem is based on performance, and anytime you turn to one of your performance, you know, addictions and you don't get performance back, you lose your mind," right? "So you... Everything you have to do feeds your sense of self-worth. So if you go out and shoot the bow, it's gotta be great. If you go out and drive the car or get in the simulator, it's gotta be great. If you're trying to, you know, prepare for a podcast, it's gotta be great. Like, all of these things, you have to be great. And when you don't, it's sort of like an alcoholic who walks into a bar, asks for vodka, and gets water," right? "They're asking for vodka. They need the thing that feeds their addiction, but they're being given water instead. So I, I want..." I... "I'm demanding great performance because that's how I validate my existence, and I... Instead, I get no performance. I get lousy performance. But because my appetite has grown, it gets hard." That, that's why I think, over time, it just got worse and worse.

7. 15:59 – 20:19

   Treatment and tools: residential therapy and the ‘talk to a friend’ phone exercise

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:59

      So, what did you do to correct that?

   2. PAPeter Attia16:02

      Well, I mean, I think there's two things, right? There's the underlying belief system has to be completely shattered, right? So that's... You know, I spent total of five weeks in residential care. Um, two weeks in 2017 and three weeks in 2020. So that's, you know, that's as bad as it gets, right? That's... You're doing 12 to 13 hours a day of therapy seven days a week, um, and that's where you're kind of going back to the root of the problems, like, what is it that is creating or has created this belief system in you? Um, so you have to go back and look at that. You then have to figure out what are the strategies and tools to break these habits and behaviors. Um, and so to the latter, there was a very tangible tool, uh, put forth by one of the therapists, which was every time you do something that creates this ire and rage in you, instead of defaulting into your normal state, which is yelling at yourself, or breaking an arrow over your thigh, or whatever it is you would do, pull out your phone and audibly speak as though it's your friend that made that mistake, right? So if I'm shooting horribly and, and, and so... And I really feel like I'm gonna lose my mind, I pull out my phone and I pretend it's you that's shooting horribly-

   3. JRJoe Rogan17:20

      Hm.

   4. PAPeter Attia17:20

      ... what would I say to you?

   5. JRJoe Rogan17:21

      Hm.

   6. PAPeter Attia17:22

      I wouldn't yell at you if you were shooting poorly. I'd be like, "Joe, look, man, I... It's a little windy today. Let's be honest. We're not making excuses, but when it's 20-mile-an-hour wind, (laughs) it's hard to shoot well. Um, maybe you're tired, you know? You probably just lifted right before you came out here. That always makes it harder for you to stabilize the bow. Um, and look, maybe it's just a bad day. Like, let's come out and do it again tomorrow."

   7. JRJoe Rogan17:42

      Hm.

   8. PAPeter Attia17:43

      And so I would record that, and I would send that to my therapist every single time.

   9. JRJoe Rogan17:47

      Wow.

   10. PAPeter Attia17:47

       And this would happen, like, multiple times a day. And just doing that four or five times a day, after four, five, six months, what I called my inner Bobby Knight, which was the, the name I had for that guy that would scream at me, like, I just couldn't hear him anymore.

   11. JRJoe Rogan18:04

       Wow. That's fascinating. So you fixed a lifelong problem in just a few months.

   12. PAPeter Attia18:11

       Which if you had told me upfront that was possible, I would have said, "It's not."... you can't... I was like, "There's no way you can undo something so," I, I thought, "so terminal." Um, but, you know, this, this speaks to plasticity, right? The, the brain is a pretty plastic thing.

   13. JRJoe Rogan18:29

       (smacks lips) It's interesting to think of what, what started you on this path and why you didn't course correct. I love this thought process that it's an addiction, that you're addicted to great performance, which totally makes sense, totally makes sense. 'Cause I could feel myself, I could... Like, I definitely could have succumbed to that same sort of, uh, thinking and behavior.

   14. PAPeter Attia18:55

       And it is a dangerous addiction.

   15. JRJoe Rogan18:57

       Mm.

   16. PAPeter Attia18:57

       Perfectionism is a dangerous addiction in the sense that a lot of people will reward it. Society-

   17. JRJoe Rogan19:04

       Yes.

   18. PAPeter Attia19:04

       ... generally rewards it.

   19. JRJoe Rogan19:05

       Yeah.

   20. PAPeter Attia19:06

       And in that sense, another fear I had was... 'Cause, I mean, it's not like my... It's not like people around me didn't know I was a mess, but any time someone tried to suggest, like, "Back off," I would look at them and say, "Are you an idiot? Like, if I back off, I won't be as good." Like-

   21. JRJoe Rogan19:25

       Mm.

   22. PAPeter Attia19:25

       ... i- i- if I don't... You know, like, when I was in residency, I had this obsession with wanting to read every single textbook written in surgery. And, you know, this is... We were already working, like, 114 hours a week. It's not like I had a lot of free time. And my wife was like, "You're so dogmatic in this. Like, you insist on reading 26 pages of tiny-fonted textbooks every day." And, and she's like, "W- like, d- you don't need to do this." And I was like, "Are you kidding? Like, of course I need to do this. Like, what else will my legacy be if I don't do this?" I mean, it's just, like, this very polluted sense of self-worth.

   23. JRJoe Rogan20:00

       Mm.

   24. PAPeter Attia20:01

       Um, but again, it's rewarded, 'cause then you, you, you know, you know a lot, right? And so, you, you, people, people are happy with how much you know. So, it feeds on itself in a very destructive way. There's nobody that's looking at the guy who's losing all his money gambling and saying, "Good job." Like-

   25. JRJoe Rogan20:16

       (laughs)

   26. PAPeter Attia20:16

       "Keep doing that."

8. 20:19 – 25:58

   Legacy, meaning, and a tragedy that reframed priorities

   1. JRJoe Rogan20:19

      Legacy is the strangest thing to aspire to, because you will never experience it.

   2. PAPeter Attia20:25

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan20:26

      It's such a weird-

   4. PAPeter Attia20:27

      It's so ridiculous, isn't it?

   5. JRJoe Rogan20:28

      It's a-

   6. PAPeter Attia20:28

      You're not even gonna be here. (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan20:30

      So weird. I'm really glad I don't have any f- worry about my legacy. I have zero thought about my legacy.

   8. PAPeter Attia20:36

      I, I, and I am so glad that I couldn't care less about it now as well.

   9. JRJoe Rogan20:41

      (laughs)

   10. PAPeter Attia20:41

       It is such a-

   11. JRJoe Rogan20:42

       So crazy.

   12. PAPeter Attia20:42

       ... it's such a remarkable freedom. And-

   13. JRJoe Rogan20:44

       It's the driving force betr- behind many people's lives, though.

   14. PAPeter Attia20:47

       Yeah. And I, I actually like feeling, like, kind of a, a good-for-nothing whatever. Like, I mean, t- t-

   15. JRJoe Rogan20:54

       Well, you certainly are not that, though. See-

   16. PAPeter Attia20:55

       No, no, no. But if-

   17. JRJoe Rogan20:56

       ... that's why you like feeling like a good-for-nothing, because you clearly are not.

   18. PAPeter Attia20:59

       Well, I think it's just that I realize, like, outside of my kids... I, I'll tell you an interesting story that's sort of a sad story, but it's, it's so profound, right? So, I had a friend who, um, his wife was pregnant with their first kid. And he's a successful guy, so he... Prior to his wife having kids, I think he goes through the same sort of thoughts everyone is gonna go through, which is like, "How is this gonna change my life?" And the day his wife has the baby, he, you know... Uh, it's, like, the next day, I guess. She was still in the hospital. He steps out to go buy some food and he, he, he still remembers this to this day. He's like, he bought a banana and he's walking back to the hospital with the banana that he just bought, and he thinks to himself, "I wonder if I'm gonna be the kinda guy who now thinks the most important thing in his life is his family, or is it still gonna be, you know, being a venture capitalist?" And he's thinking about it. He's thinking about it. And he goes, "You know what? I actually think it's just gonna be my family. I think all this other stuff is gonna be bullshit and life is gonna be my family." And I'm not making this up. He gets back to the room and his wife is dead.

   19. JRJoe Rogan22:06

       Oh, my God.

   20. PAPeter Attia22:07

       She had had a pulmonary embolism.

   21. JRJoe Rogan22:09

       Oh.

   22. PAPeter Attia22:10

       And she died one day after delivering their, uh, first child.

   23. JRJoe Rogan22:14

       Oh.

   24. PAPeter Attia22:16

       And I was just having dinner with him, like, two weeks ago, and he was like, "You know, it's so ironic that I kind of just immediately have that realization just as everything gets taken away from me." But he feels that way even more now, right? And I was like, "You know, I think that is exactly the right distinction to make." It's like, "This is life. These are the things that are life. Everything else is bullshit."

   25. JRJoe Rogan22:40

       Yeah. The problem is that getting acceptance and getting appreciation for success is all... is a drug. It, it really is a drug, right?

   26. PAPeter Attia22:53

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan22:53

       And it becomes a thing that you aspire to and it seems like the only thing in life. (smacks lips) When the... Really, the, the m- the goal to life, really, is harmony. That's the real goal. Like, the goal to life is not never being uncomfortable or always being uncomfortable. The goal to life is not n- never being upset versus always being upset. The goal to life is, like, this balance. It's, like, enjoyment in the things that you do, but also in your occupation, having hobbies, but also having a family, having l- love and friendship, but also having enough people in your life that you've encountered that suck to understand why you appreciate the people that you care for so much.

   28. PAPeter Attia23:45

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan23:46

       I think all those are important. Like, even the sh- the people that I know that suck, I've, I value those experiences because they've taught me how really cool my other friends are. You know? When someone is a, uh, fucking psycho narcissist and they fucking ruin everything they touch and, like, it's good to see that person. It's really good to see this one person that doesn't give a shit about anybody but themselves and go, "Wow, what a weird way to live."

   30. PAPeter Attia24:17

       Yeah.
9. 25:58 – 31:27

   Luck and timing: partner choice, birthplace, and growing up pre-internet

   1. PAPeter Attia25:58

      Yeah, there's amazing luck involved. I mean, you and I were talking about this the other day, right? Like, winning the wife lottery, like, when you marry the right person-

   2. JRJoe Rogan26:04

      Oh, God. It's everything.

   3. PAPeter Attia26:05

      It's... Yeah. I, I... And, and I think I just feel, like, so lucky that-

   4. JRJoe Rogan26:10

      Your wife's amazing. You really are lucky. And, and so am I.

   5. PAPeter Attia26:13

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan26:13

      And a lot of other people are too, but you also didn't fucking marry some dumb bitch. (laughs)

   7. PAPeter Attia26:18

      (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan26:18

      You know? (laughs) You know? And she, in her, on her case, she didn't marry some fucking dumb asshole. It's like, you get lucky, but you also... I, like, I've dated some monsters, you know? And, and I got out of it, luckily, but just, Jesus Christ. There's monsters out there. There's people... And these people are just human beings, and you're catching them at whatever stage of their existence where they've had, like, terrible upbringings and bad family members and just a fucking alcoholic dad, abusive mother who's constantly criticizing them. And then they, they become this thing, and then you run into them at the bar. "Hi, nice to meet you. I'm Peter."

   9. PAPeter Attia27:00

      (laughs)

   10. JRJoe Rogan27:00

       "Hi, I'm Debbie." And then Debbie just fucking, "What's... Let me look at your phone. Who are you texting, Peter?" Like, "Oh, no." (laughs)

   11. PAPeter Attia27:07

       (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan27:08

       But if Debbie's hot, that's the problem. You know? Your genes are like, "Listen, listen, shut the fuck up. Like, look at her tits."

   13. PAPeter Attia27:16

       (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan27:16

       "Look at that ass. Let's go." And then next thing you know, Debbie's pregnant. Next thing you know, Peter has a baby with some monster. And that can happen. It, it, it's happened to my friends, to good friends of mine. It's fucking awful to experience. I've had good friends of mine that got wrapped up in horrendous relationships. (sighs)

   15. PAPeter Attia27:36

       I think... I was thinking about this the other day. I mean, the role of luck in anyone's life is profound. The, the thing that I think gets underappreciated is the luck we have being born where we are.

   16. JRJoe Rogan27:47

       Oh, yeah.

   17. PAPeter Attia27:47

       Like, I... So my parents are immigrants, right? So I was born, like, a couple years after they moved to Canada, and I was talking with my parents, uh, two months ago, they came out to visit, and I said, like, "Was there any chance you guys were not gonna move?" Now you've stayed in Egypt, right? Like, what, what... Was there any chance an-... And I think, "You ever think how different my life would be if I was born in Cairo?"

   18. JRJoe Rogan28:08

       Mm.

   19. PAPeter Attia28:09

       And the answer is, like, beyond different.

   20. JRJoe Rogan28:12

       Beyond.

   21. PAPeter Attia28:12

       Beyond different.

   22. JRJoe Rogan28:13

       Beyond.

   23. PAPeter Attia28:14

       There, there is no singer- single stroke of luck that has impacted my life that... And by the way, like, if, if we had been, if we'd been born in Egypt, or if I'd been born in Egypt, you know, because we're not Muslim, I mean, it's not a great place to be if you're not a Muslim-

   24. JRJoe Rogan28:28

       Mm.

   25. PAPeter Attia28:29

       ... um, in a, in a country that's obviously majority Muslim.

   26. JRJoe Rogan28:31

       Mm.

   27. PAPeter Attia28:32

       So, you know, there just would have... You know, I would have been discriminated against. I mean, it would have just been... I wouldn't have had the same educational opportunities, which wouldn't have had any of the opportunities that I had growing up in Canada. So, you know, something that's completely out of my control, but probably had a greater impact on the arc of my life than anything else.

   28. JRJoe Rogan28:49

       Yeah, that's just dumb luck, right?

   29. PAPeter Attia28:51

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan28:51

       You just hit the birth lottery. Absolutely, I think that way too. I also think that, you know, we are extremely fortunate in human history to be born when we were born. I'm a little older than you. I'm 55, you're 50. So w- you know, you were born in the '70s, I was born in the late '60s, and what w-... We were born-
10. 31:27 – 37:12

    Privacy and AI: surveillance fears and ChatGPT hallucinations

    1. JRJoe Rogan31:27

       ... and it, it gives you a potential response. Like, "Oh, boy." Meanwhile, the government is, like, completely reading everything you say. Everything you say. Did you see that Tucker Carlson said that the, uh, the NSA got into his Signal?

    2. PAPeter Attia31:45

       No, I didn't.

    3. JRJoe Rogan31:45

       Yeah, his Signal app, 'cause he was about to have a conversation with Putin. They were trying to set up a conversation with Putin, and the government called 'em up and they're like, "Hey, we know you're, uh, setting up a conversation with Putin. We s- we saw through your Signal app." And he was like, "What?" Like, "I didn't even fucking know they could do that." That's what he was saying. I assumed-

    4. PAPeter Attia32:04

       Hmm.

    5. JRJoe Rogan32:05

       ... they could do that because I had a conversation with Gavin de Becker and he essentially said that through Pegasus software, it's, uh, Pegasus 2.0. He said Pegasus 1.0, you needed to click a link, and that's how they got Bezos.

    6. PAPeter Attia32:16

       Hmm.

    7. JRJoe Rogan32:16

       And that's how, um, what's the guy's name from Saudi Arabia got Bezos?

    8. PAPeter Attia32:20

       MbS.

    9. JRJoe Rogan32:21

       Yeah. Um, but Pegasus 2.0, they just need your phone number. That's it. Like, y- your f- all this idea of encryption, like... (laughs) Oh, are you using encryption? (laughs)

    10. PAPeter Attia32:35

        (laughs)

    11. JRJoe Rogan32:36

        That shit doesn't mean anything. They can just read whatever they want.

    12. PAPeter Attia32:40

        Hmm.

    13. JRJoe Rogan32:40

        It's really crazy.

    14. PAPeter Attia32:41

        Yeah.

    15. JRJoe Rogan32:42

        It's the amou- the violation of privacy that's available right now to, by the way, just regular people. Here's the thing about it. Like, who are these people that work for the government? They're people. They're just people that make a decision to just look into other people's stuff. It's not like these are... They're not priests. They're not some monk-

    16. PAPeter Attia33:00

        Hmm.

    17. JRJoe Rogan33:00

        ... that spent 10 years meditating on a thought on a mountaintop and have achieved-

    18. PAPeter Attia33:05

        (laughs)

    19. JRJoe Rogan33:05

        ... a, you know, an extraordinary level of consciousness. No, these are just fucking regular dorks who jerk off in the bathroom on their lunch break.

    20. PAPeter Attia33:14

        (laughs)

    21. JRJoe Rogan33:14

        And these guys have access to all your emails. And it's a real problem. It's a real problem that I don't think most people are even available, or, or, or a- aware of. It's a giant issue that we experience right now, w- with this, like, this whole d- digital world. And I don't know how much you've fucked with ChatGPT at all.

    22. PAPeter Attia33:34

        Quite a bit. Um, I, I mean, I'm, I've been trying to get onto GPT-4 now, 'cause I'm, I'm told that it's a significant upgrade.

    23. JRJoe Rogan33:42

        Significant upgrade.

    24. PAPeter Attia33:43

        Yeah.

    25. JRJoe Rogan33:43

        Yeah.

    26. PAPeter Attia33:43

        'Cause I was not impressed with ChatGPT on questions that required, like, I, I'll give you an example. Like, I asked it, "Between Sugar Ray Leonard, Marvin Hagler, Tommy Hearns, and Roberto Duran, explain who you think is the best boxer of that era."

    27. JRJoe Rogan34:03

        Hmm. What did it say?

    28. PAPeter Attia34:03

        Like, this, uh... I can't remember, but it was so dumb, Joe, that I was like, "There... This is not a helpful answer." Like, it basically said, "Well, um, you know, Tommy Hearns beat Roberto Duran and..." Like, it just basically recited a bunch of facts, but-

    29. JRJoe Rogan34:19

        Hmm.

    30. PAPeter Attia34:19

        ... it couldn't come up with anything. I then asked it, this was actually really odd, um, I said, "What was so special about the 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix?" That's the one where, going into the final race, uh, Verstappen and Hamilton were tied even, winner take all for the championship that year. And it was a very controversial ending.
11. 37:12 – 52:13

    Boxing deep dive: the ‘Four Kings,’ Hagler debates, and fight politics

    1. JRJoe Rogan37:12

       It's... You would never be able to get... That was... That's an interesting thing, like when it comes to the boxing a- analogy or the question. Like, how would you quantify... Like, 'cause experts... Like, you and I love boxing.

    2. PAPeter Attia37:24

       Right.

    3. JRJoe Rogan37:25

       But if we had a conversation about who's bet- Like, who would you say? Ma- um, Martin Hagler-

    4. PAPeter Attia37:29

       Of that era?

    5. JRJoe Rogan37:29

       ... Tommy Hearns, Sugar Ray Leonard, or Roberto Duran?

    6. PAPeter Attia37:31

       I put Hagler first.

    7. JRJoe Rogan37:32

       Me too.

    8. PAPeter Attia37:32

       Yep.

    9. JRJoe Rogan37:33

       Yeah, I agree. I think he was the best because he, he beat everybody. And the only reason why I wouldn't put Duran ahead of Hagler is that Duran... Duran was fighting at 160 pounds.

    10. PAPeter Attia37:44

        Duran wasn't a natural middleweight.

    11. JRJoe Rogan37:46

        He was 135-pounder.

    12. PAPeter Attia37:47

        That's right, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    13. JRJoe Rogan37:48

        Yeah.

    14. PAPeter Attia37:48

        So, so-

    15. JRJoe Rogan37:48

        If you go back to like Ken Buchanan, when he fought Ken Buchanan at 135, he was a fucking monster.

    16. PAPeter Attia37:53

        He, he was a m- He was a beast all the way up to welterweight.

    17. JRJoe Rogan37:56

        Yeah.

    18. PAPeter Attia37:56

        I mean, insane.

    19. JRJoe Rogan37:57

        And even in welterweight.

    20. PAPeter Attia37:58

        Yeah.

    21. JRJoe Rogan37:58

        And then, you know, I'd... The second fight with, uh, Sugar Ray Leonard really...

    22. PAPeter Attia38:04

        No, no, no. Hearns won that fight.

    23. JRJoe Rogan38:05

        Disaster.

    24. PAPeter Attia38:05

        That's a disaster.

    25. JRJoe Rogan38:05

        No, no. Leonard.

    26. PAPeter Attia38:06

        Oh, oh, oh.

    27. JRJoe Rogan38:07

        Leonard and, and, um, uh, Duran.

    28. PAPeter Attia38:10

        Yeah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan38:10

        D- The second fight's a disaster because Duran got fat and was partying and he had a fucking lion that was on a chain-

    30. PAPeter Attia38:18

        (laughs)
12. 52:13 – 1:10:15

    Combat sports damage: concussions, sparring stories, and long-term risk

    1. PAPeter Attia52:13

       (laughs) Man, I, I feel so fortunate that I somehow escaped 10 years of getting hit without more damage.

    2. JRJoe Rogan52:19

       Yeah. I, I think that too. I mean, I don't know how much damage I actually have though. Sometimes I wonder about, like-

    3. PAPeter Attia52:24

       How many concussions do you ever get? Do you know?

    4. JRJoe Rogan52:27

       Oh, I've had a lot. (laughs)

    5. PAPeter Attia52:29

       (laughs)

    6. JRJoe Rogan52:29

       I have no idea. I have no idea. I got one skiing a couple years ago. My last time skiing. I'm like, "I'm done. I'm done." I, I fucked my knee up and I, and I fucking banged my head hard. Some lady, it was, like, really new and she didn't know what she was doing and she's, like, s- kind of sliding into the middle of the r- the trail. I'm like, "Oh, Jesus Christ." I came around this corner and as I come around this corner this lady is just, like, sliding into the trail and it's either kill her-

    7. PAPeter Attia52:58

       (laughs)

    8. JRJoe Rogan52:58

       ... or fall down. And so I went to try to get around her. I knew I was gonna fall anyway and I couldn't... There's no way. I just couldn't adjust quick enough and I fucking... The skis went out from under me. Bang, my head, the back of my head off the ground and the ne- the whole rest of the day I was just, like, confused and, like, I couldn't... My coordination was off, everything was screwy. Like, I went to get on the chair lift and I fell.

    9. PAPeter Attia53:21

       Oh.

    10. JRJoe Rogan53:22

        Like a old man.

    11. PAPeter Attia53:22

        Yeah.

    12. JRJoe Rogan53:22

        And I couldn't get back up. (laughs) A lady had to help me up. And I was like, "What is wrong with me?" And then I went, "Hey, stupid, you have a concussion." And I was like, "Oh, okay."

    13. PAPeter Attia53:33

        I had a really bad one in '93 and, um... It actually... It was so bad that you could see the cerebral contusions on my head in a T- I had a CT scan.

    14. JRJoe Rogan53:43

        Ooh.

    15. PAPeter Attia53:44

        And I was... For two to three months I had a headache. It wouldn't go away for two to three months.

    16. JRJoe Rogan53:51

        How did you get it?

    17. PAPeter Attia53:52

        Uh, sparring.

    18. JRJoe Rogan53:53

        Oof.

    19. PAPeter Attia53:54

        Yeah, I used to do this dumb thing where... Because I was a middleweight, so I would fight... I would spar two rounds with a welterweight, two rounds with a middleweight, two rounds with a light heavyweight.

    20. JRJoe Rogan54:04

        Oh my God.

    21. PAPeter Attia54:05

        So I wanted to kind of... So, each... The opponent would be fresh for two rounds, so I was getting more and more tired as the opponent is getting stronger but slower.

    22. JRJoe Rogan54:13

        Were you competing?

    23. PAPeter Attia54:14

        Uh, no. I had stopped (laughs) competing by this point, so there was literally no reason for me to be doing this.

    24. JRJoe Rogan54:18

        (laughs)

    25. PAPeter Attia54:18

        This was so dumb. This was like... Like, I was in college at this point, right?

    26. JRJoe Rogan54:21

        Oh, God.

    27. PAPeter Attia54:21

        So I'm a college student who would still train really, really hard and on the fifth round, so the first round with that guy who was a light heavyweight... I just remember his name was Mike. Um, and this was, uh... Even by the standards of a light heavyweight, he hit like a mule. He just was... He was s-... He was... He had such a hard shot. And I just... On that particular day, I was just not feeling good, but I just didn't listen to myself, right? I was like, "You're gonna finish these six rounds no matter what," even though I felt horrible. And he got me with straight right after straight right after straight right.

    28. JRJoe Rogan54:53

        (laughs)

    29. PAPeter Attia54:53

        And...... at the end of those six rounds, I went down to cool off on the speed bag and just, you know, for people watching who don't know what that's like, like as, hitting a speed bag, you shouldn't feel anything. Like, there's no weight to the dumb thing, right? But just the impact of the side of my hand on the speed bag made it feel like I was getting kicked in the head.

    30. JRJoe Rogan55:11

        Oh, my God.
13. 1:10:15 – 1:18:40

    From UFC to Taylor Swift: changing interests, fandom, and massive crowds

    1. PAPeter Attia1:10:15

       I, I have stopped watching boxing altogether. I don't know anything about the sport, Joe, to, to be honest with you.

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:10:20

       Really?

    3. PAPeter Attia1:10:21

       It's really weird. For someone who was so obsessed with the sport growing up, basically around 2000 I just stopped.

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:10:31

       Really?

    5. PAPeter Attia1:10:32

       Yeah.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:10:32

       How come?

    7. PAPeter Attia1:10:33

       I mean, I think part of it is being in residency, I just didn't have the time. Like, basically all the things I loved, like I didn't watch Formula 1. You know, I kind of stopped watching Formula 1 at that time.

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:10:41

       No time?

    9. PAPeter Attia1:10:41

       No. I think by '97 was the last year I watched F1, until I got back into it again, like, a decade later. Uh, stopped watching boxing. Didn't watch a single Super Bowl, let alone a single football game. Um, yeah, I just went completely off the grid for a decade.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:10:55

        I guess that makes sense, though. You kind of have to, just to focus. You don't have the time for that kind of recreation.

    11. PAPeter Attia1:11:03

        Well, I mean, I used all my rec time to train. I mean, it was sort of like-

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:11:06

        Yeah.

    13. PAPeter Attia1:11:06

        ... I was gonna sort of... Swimming was the thing I was doing, so.

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:11:09

        Mm-hmm.

    15. PAPeter Attia1:11:10

        Tha- that, that takes up so much time.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:11:11

        Do you still watch UFC?

    17. PAPeter Attia1:11:13

        I never have.

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:11:14

        Never have watched the UFC? Not one?

    19. PAPeter Attia1:11:16

        D- d- I mean, I would love to go with you. You've extended me the invitation many times. I, I, I will go at some point. Um-

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:11:22

        You should go to Miami next weekend.

    21. PAPeter Attia1:11:24

        Well, I can't. I'm going to see Taylor Swift. (snaps fingers) (laughs)

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:11:27

        (laughs) That's the most opposite UFC thing ever.

    23. PAPeter Attia1:11:30

        (laughs)

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:11:30

        Fu- it's so funny that you're a Swifty. You've become a Swifty.

    25. PAPeter Attia1:11:35

        I, I'm, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm enjoying embracing and supporting my daughter's obsession with Taylor Swift. We're gonna see two shows, actually. We're going to-

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:11:42

        Oh, boy.

    27. PAPeter Attia1:11:42

        We're going to Houston and Arlington.

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:11:44

        Oh my goodness.

    29. PAPeter Attia1:11:45

        Well, because we got lucky, right? Like...

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:11:47

        (laughs) You didn't get lucky.

Episode duration: 2:47:10