Joe Rogan Experience #1968 - Jason Everman

Joe Rogan 0:00 (drum music) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

Narrator 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) Well, thanks for coming, man. Appreciate it.

Jason Everman 0:15 Yeah, thanks for asking.

Joe Rogan 0:16 You've had a wild life, dude. How the fuck does one go from playing in Nirvana and Soundgarden to being a soldier?

Jason Everman 0:26 Um, it's, it's, (laughs) it's a longer story.

Joe Rogan 0:28 Yeah.

Jason Everman 0:28 I don't, I don't know how-

Joe Rogan 0:29 I wanna hear it. (laughs)

Jason Everman 0:30 ... how long an answer you want.

Joe Rogan 0:31 We got, uh, plenty of time.

Jason Everman 0:33 Okay, um ... Mm. So, I guess w- being a professional rock musician was something I kind of fell into. It wasn't something that I, like, uh, had a dream of, you know? It's like, "Oh, I'm gonna be..." You know, I love playing in bands, I love playing music, but it was, like, at this punk rock level where y- you were never gonna make a living at it, you know?

Joe Rogan 0:59 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 0:59 It was just something fun to do. And then, uh, started playing with Nirvana, and even at that level s- you know, still not making money from it, but, you know, touring.

Joe Rogan 1:12 Was it the early days of Nirvana?

Jason Everman 1:13 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14 So, Nirvana wasn't worldwide-

Jason Everman 1:16 No.

Joe Rogan 1:16 ... at that point?

Jason Everman 1:16 No. Um, i- uh, there were c- um, even on the Seattle level, like, one of the, the, the smaller bands, you know? Like, there was bands like Mudhoney and Soundgarden that were better known than Nirvana was at the time, for sure.

Joe Rogan 1:31 And you played for Soundgarden too.

Jason Everman 1:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:32 Which is also hilarious. (laughs)

Jason Everman 1:34 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:37 And when, when did you ... Like, so, you're, in, in the beginning, so did you just have, did you have friction with the band? Like, why did you wind up leaving?

Jason Everman 1:45 So, w- uh, with Nirvana, it was just, uh, I guess initially, like, when I came on board, like, Kurt wanted a second guitar player for the live show basically, like, uh, have a heavier sound live, take some of the guitar-playing responsibility off him so he could concentrate on vocals, like that kind of thing. And initially, like, I thought I was gonna be able to contribute to the band creatively, and then it got to the point where I realized that wasn't gonna happen. And then the same thing happened with Chad, the drummer, I think. And it was, like, everyone in the band, including myself, was, like, very p- po- poor communicators, like, a lot of passive aggression.

Joe Rogan 2:29 Mm.

Jason Everman 2:29 And, you know, I mean, w- we were kids, you know?

Joe Rogan 2:33 How old were you at the time?

Jason Everman 2:33 20, I think.

Joe Rogan 2:35 Mm.

Jason Everman 2:35 And, yeah, I d- I just, I wasn't equipped for it, and eh- became more and more unhappy with the situation and then ended up leaving.

Joe Rogan 2:46 So, was it that, like, when you would try to, uh, put creative input in, it would get shut down or they weren't interested or Kurt wasn't interested?

Jason Everman 2:54 Yeah, so, (sighs) like, on the rare time where we actually rehearse as a band, which was not a lot, um, K- Kurt would kind of half-heartedly, like, "Hey, who, who has ideas?" And, like, I'd throw a couple ideas out. And then Chad, l- like, a very accomplished musician in his own right, would throw some ideas out. And then it'd just kind of be glossed over and, like, "Okay, here's the new song I wrote," you know, and start learning that.

Joe Rogan 3:24 Mm.

Jason Everman 3:24 So, it was very, uh-

Joe Rogan 3:28 Egocentric.

Jason Everman 3:29 ... c- uh, cursory, you know? It was like-

Joe Rogan 3:30 Yeah.

Jason Everman 3:31 ... he, he kind of, like, threw it out there, but then it wasn't-

Joe Rogan 3:33 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 3:33 ... gonna go anywhere.

Joe Rogan 3:34 Mm. And so, um, did you, so you went for Nirvana first and then to Soundgarden?

Jason Everman 3:40 Yeah, like, I left, we did a US tour, like, the first full US tour that Nirvana did in '88 or '89. I can't remember what year it was, but I think it was still the '80s. And, like, I, I left at the end of that tour. Like, "Okay, I'm, I'm done." Like, nice little four-way, foray into, into rock and roll, but I'm gonna do something else. And when I got home, um, I was planning on going trekking in the Himalayas. Like ...

Joe Rogan 4:13 Really?

Jason Everman 4:13 Yeah, that was the next, that was the next thing. It's like, "Okay, this was a nice diversion, but, uh, I'm gonna kind of fulfill this dream I've had since I was a kid of, like, trekking in the Himalayas." So I, like, I went to Metzger's Maps in Seattle and was buying maps of the Himalaya, of Nepal and Tibet and all this stuff, and, like, getting gear sorted, and that's what I was gonna do. And then at some point that summer or f- fall, I can't remember what time of year it was, into summer, um, Kim from Soundgarden called me and, uh, was like, "Hey, h- hero," their, their bass player then, like, "quit. Do you wanna audition for the band?" And I was like ... You know, at that point, like, Soundgarden was my favorite Seattle band, like, hands down, and it was like, "O- okay." (laughs) You know, fully not believing I'd ever get chosen.

Joe Rogan 5:05 And then you did.

Jason Everman 5:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:07 And how did that end?

Jason Everman 5:09 Uh, I got fired.

Joe Rogan 5:11 What happened?

Jason Everman 5:12 Um, it's complicated, but I think at the end of the day, um, I, I wasn't getting along with Chris that well, the singer. And, you know, obviously, you know, who's gonna go?

Joe Rogan 5:26 Right, of course.

Jason Everman 5:26 Yeah, it was, it was me. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:28 (laughs) Yeah. So, how does that translate into becoming a soldier?

Jason Everman 5:35 Uh, I mean, there's more, there's, there's more to the story than that, 'cause there was still, like ... I basically, like, getting fired from Soundgarden, like, put me in a pretty bad tailspin. Um, it, I mean, it wa- it was a, a rough patch in my life, for sure. And so, in order to kind of, uh ...... cut this tailspin off, like I've, I had to do something radical, and what I did was ended up moving to New York. And so, (sighs) I mean, there's more to the story than that. Um, (smacks lips) I moved to New York, like basically, you know, um, I grew up in rural western Washington, like, so it was kind of polar opposite to what I, what my experience was, like got a job in a warehouse, got an apartment, and k- kind of started my, my New York life, and did that for a couple of years.

Joe Rogan 6:37 What was your plan when you moved to New York? Did you just wanted to try it-

Jason Everman 6:41 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 6:41 ... and experience life in the city?

Jason Everman 6:43 I think the main plan was, like, the, like, get out of this funk that I was in.

Joe Rogan 6:49 Uh-huh.

Jason Everman 6:49 You know? And-

Joe Rogan 6:50 How old were you at the time?

Jason Everman 6:51 T- tw- 21, 22 maybe?

Joe Rogan 6:53 So just young guy-

Jason Everman 6:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:54 ... trying to figure out life.

Jason Everman 6:56 Yeah. I mean, like, the Soundgarden thing, (laughs) like getting fired from Soundgarden, like it broke my heart. It was, it was a bad spot for me, and, uh, 'cause I loved that band, and it wasn't-

Joe Rogan 7:08 Hmm.

Jason Everman 7:08 It wasn't about, you know, I never thought they would get as, as big as they did. Uh, honestly, it kind of surprised me when they did because, yeah, they're a great band, but I think, I always thought they were a little too quirky to be huge despite, you know, the Chris factor, like, you know, this genetically engineered rock star, you know?

Joe Rogan 7:28 (laughs)

Jason Everman 7:29 Um, but I always thought they were a little, a little too weird to be, have like mainstream success, which was fine with me. I thought they'd be like, like a big indie band like Sonic Youth or Butthole Surfers, like that level, you know?

Joe Rogan 7:40 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 7:40 And, um, but it was more like I, I just loved that band, and I loved playing with them. And, like, having that taken away, yeah, it really, it fucked me up for a bit.

Joe Rogan 7:51 Hmm. So you just went to New York City to try to s- experience a different life?

Jason Everman 7:57 Um, uh, just, uh, (laughs) r- running from my demons, you know, like that-

Joe Rogan 8:02 (clears throat)

Jason Everman 8:02 ... old rubric.

Joe Rogan 8:03 Yeah.

Jason Everman 8:04 But, you know, your, your demons tend to follow you.

Joe Rogan 8:07 Always.

Jason Everman 8:07 So, yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:08 What were your demons?

Jason Everman 8:09 Um, uh, (sighs) you wanna go down that rabbit hole?

Joe Rogan 8:12 Sure.

Jason Everman 8:12 Th- there's a few. Um, the, uh, like growing up, you know, like, uh, and like everyone has a story, right? Like, "Oh, wah, my childhood was bad," and-

Joe Rogan 8:23 Hmm.

Jason Everman 8:24 ... my childhood wasn't bad necessarily, but it was, it was, there was a lot of unhappiness for sure. And, um, it stemmed from, like, my mother and my stepdad not, not being happy, you know? They-

Joe Rogan 8:38 Hmm.

Jason Everman 8:38 ... they were, um... I don't feel bad talking about it now 'cause they're both gone now, but they, you know, they probably shouldn't have gotten married.

Joe Rogan 8:48 Hmm.

Jason Everman 8:48 And, and they both... A- and that's one thing as, like, an adult, like looking back, you can kind of (sighs) ... you see your parents as human beings and not like these magical creatures that, like, f- feed you and take care of you.

Joe Rogan 9:03 Right.

Jason Everman 9:04 And it, you know, they got, they got their, their dreams and their, their, you know, crushed dreams. Like, they're humans.

Joe Rogan 9:11 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 9:11 So I have a lot of compassion for them now as an adult. It's like, "Oh, I get it now." You know? It's like they, they weren't bad people. They were just people.

Joe Rogan 9:19 And it's just being a child in that environment.

Jason Everman 9:23 Yeah, 'cause that, 'cause that's... you have nothing to compare it to.

Joe Rogan 9:26 Right.

Jason Everman 9:26 It's just reality.

Joe Rogan 9:27 Yeah.

Jason Everman 9:27 It's like, "Oh, I guess this is what being a kid is," you know? It kinda sucks.

Joe Rogan 9:32 Yeah.

Jason Everman 9:33 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 9:34 (laughs) It can.

Jason Everman 9:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:35 But through that suck, a lot of times that's where you sort of get your drive, unfortunately.

Jason Everman 9:40 Oh, oh, I'm a firm believer that, that growth is the result of trauma.

Joe Rogan 9:44 Hmm.

Jason Everman 9:45 Like, you need that, that thesis, antithesis, synthesis, you know?

Joe Rogan 9:50 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 9:50 That, that, that, like Stephen Jay Gould called it, uh, (smacks lips) pertaining to evolution, uh, punctuated equilibrium, where, like, evolution tends to stay stable if there's no pressures, and, but as soon as there's this introduction of new pressures, usually the result of some cataclysmic event, it's not a gradual thing, it's usually sudden and extreme, and that's where these new evolutionary pressures are introduced, and it's like... uh, on this level of species, you adapt and survive or you die off. So I, I kind of like putting that template o- on the individual. Like, you kind of cruise through life, and then something fucked up happens, and then, you know, hopefully you step up and grow from it, you know, learn from it, all that stuff.

Joe Rogan 10:39 So you go to New York City. You were there for a few years. What were you doing while you were there?

Jason Everman 10:45 So initially, I worked in a warehouse, and it was, it was fine, you know? It's like paying my rent, living in Alphabet City, like having, having (laughs) this urban life that I never thought I would have had otherwise.

Joe Rogan 10:59 Did you know anybody there?

Jason Everman 11:00 Yeah, I had friends there from touring and stuff, and so that was kind of my, my foothold for moving there. Um, like, didn't, didn't play music. Like, I brought some equipment over. Like, initially I went over, um, with like a, a backpack and that was it. And I had a f- friend of mine's band who were on tour pick me up at JFK and drive me into the city. Uh, is... I still remember this. Like, the day before, like, I was doing different kind of, uh, work to save money for the move, so the, (laughs) the day before I flew to New York, I was, like, bucking bales of hay in like a hay field, like f- farm stuff, right? And my buddy Spike, who I'm still good friends with, uh, played in this band called Mind Over Four, they picked me up at JFK, and I remember sitting in the van and looking at my, my Converse, and, like, I still had, like, straw stuck in the Converse-

Joe Rogan 11:56 (laughs)

Jason Everman 11:56 ... from baling hay the day before, and it was like, "Okay, this is... here we go."

Joe Rogan 12:00 That's an adventure.

Jason Everman 12:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:01 Wow. And so you're there for a few years living that life.

Jason Everman 12:05 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 12:06 And how do you transition out of that?

Jason Everman 12:08 So, l-I went back to Seattle at some point during the first year in New York to ship more of my personal belongings over, and I actually- I, I went to Sub Pop because they had- they had UPS shipping there, and I'm, like, boxing up my stuff in the Sub Pop offices and, like, getting ready to ship it to New York, like, including, like, a, a Marshall cabinet, like, some music gear, but, uh, I had this vague notion of, "Eh, maybe I'll play there," but honestly I probably didn't touch a bass or a guitar for, like, the first year after getting fired from Soundgarden. It just- it still kind of had a bad taste in my mouth.

Joe Rogan 12:47 Hmm.

Jason Everman 12:48 (sighs) But what changed that was summer of '91 maybe, um, I was friends with this band called Skunk. Um, they were this indie rock band on Twin/Tone Records, um... There were three Matts, uh, Matt Sweeney, Matt Quigley, and Matt Coleman. So Matt Quigley, the bass player, uh, quit right before a European tour that they had booked supporting Babes in Toyland, um, another amazing band. And so I get a call from Matt Sweeney and he's like, "Hey, dude, like, Quigley quit. We got this tour coming up. Do you, do you want to fill in on, on bass for this tour?" So I'm like, "Uh, I could, I could work in this warehouse in New York, like, in the sweltering, you know, New York summer heat, or I could, you know, go to Europe for eight weeks or whatever and, and tour." So I'm like, "Yeah, okay, I'll do it." So learned the songs and, uh, did that tour and, and to this day it was the funnest tour I'd ever done, and I think that was because I really had nothing emotionally invested in the band. Like, I, I liked the music, I liked the dudes, but, um, it was just- all I had to do was go out and play, uh, to the best of my ability and, yeah, it was just fun. There w- there was no, no, no burden, no heaviness to it, you know?

Joe Rogan 14:15 Like, being a part of Soundgarden-

Jason Everman 14:16 Yes.

Joe Rogan 14:17 ... this immense band, you know?

Jason Everman 14:20 Yeah, that I was emotionally invested in.

Joe Rogan 14:22 Yeah.

Jason Everman 14:22 You know?

Joe Rogan 14:24 And so how do you go from that to- (laughs)

Jason Everman 14:27 (laughs) There's more to the story.

Joe Rogan 14:30 Keep going.

Jason Everman 14:30 Okay. So, uh, did the s- European tour with Skunk and it honestly is- (sighs) I think to this day the best bass performances I ever did. You know, the- I got some board recordings from that tour that once in a while I'll listen to and go, "Yeah," you know? "It's not bad."

Joe Rogan 14:50 Do you think it's because you were free, because you w- you didn't have pressure and burden?

Jason Everman 14:55 I think that was a, a component (clears throat) for sure, but also, um, the songs were a bit more complicated and stylistically it wasn't necessarily my jam. I was into heavier stuff and this was kind of more like Soul Asylum, like indie rock, whi- which is great, and the bass parts were really complicated so I kind of had to push myself to learn them and... a- again, like, you know, grew from it as a, as a musician. Um... So did the tour, came back, uh, I started playing with this kind of an industrial band on Earache Records called Old Lady Drivers which was, like, another kind of interesting foray into a genre that, uh, y- like, I was a fan of, like, the grindcore bands for sure, but, like, even this was like- it was kind of beyond that because it was very- it was a lot of, um, synthesizers and drum machines and, and stuff that I really wasn't exposed to before. But they had a record deal with Earache and y- you know who John Zorn is?

Joe Rogan 15:57 No.

Jason Everman 15:58 So he's an American treasure. He's this avant-garde jazz musician, uh, based out of New York, um, d- Google him if you get a chance, but, like, brilliant. Um, k- kind of- he does a l- a lot of stuff, he's really prolific, um, a- definitely a genius, but so Zorn was on board. He, he produced the record and John actually lived in my neighborhood so I'd, like, go to his apartment, he lived, like, two blocks away in Alphabet City, and he had this insane record collection. Like, the whole flat was, like, shelves of vinyl and it was all organized very meticulously, um, plastic sleeves for, for each, uh, jacket. It was- and he wa- he, he was like a student of American music, or music in general, and he- my God, his knowledge, and it was just cool, like, "Oh." So here's this guy, like, very- on a- at least on an- on a kind of underground level, like, very well-known, very well-respected, like, huge in Japan, of course, um...

Joe Rogan 17:03 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 17:04 And he, he's just like this nice, kind of normal dude, like, giving me the tour of his record collection, you know, and we're both living in this shitty neighborhood in Manhattan. It was just cool. So that was a good experience. I played, played shows with them, like, played CB's again, um, CBGB's which was-

Joe Rogan 17:22 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 17:22 ... you know, the legendary punk club in, uh, New York, which even, even having pl- I played there before but it's just kind of like I would still get excited about it. It's like, "Dude, I'm playing CBGB's," this was like- it was like this mythical place when I was a teenager, you know?

Joe Rogan 17:37 Yeah.

Jason Everman 17:37 And it's like, "Oh, here I am." Um, so did that and- but that was kind of, like, just a side thing for sure, and then I got contacted... So g- going back, between the Skunk tour and the Old Lady Drivers experience, I, I kind of got into playing music again. Like, it, it became fun again which is why I did it in the first place. Like, it, it, it brought me joy, but, you know, there was like a couple of times where it got to the point where the, the joy was, like, fully extracted from the process and it just- it, it wasn't fulfilling anymore, you know?So anyway, I'm back in New York, working in the warehouse, doing my thing, and I get contacted by, um... You ever heard of Uniform Choice?

Joe Rogan 18:27 No.

Jason Everman 18:27 Like a hardcore band from LA from the '80s? Um, I get tat- uh, contacted by Pat Dubar, who was, in the '80s, the singer for Uniform Choice, and that was a band I was familiar with from the punk days and everything. So he, he was in this n- band called Mindfunk, which, first off, like horrible name (laughs) , like get it.

Joe Rogan 18:48 (laughs)

Jason Everman 18:51 We, we can go into that later, but he's... Pat contacts me, and he's like, "Hey," and they, they were signed to Epic Records, had one record out already, and he's like, "Hey, um, we're gonna replace our, one of our guitar players and our drummer." He's like, "Are you interested in trying out?" And I we- honestly, I hadn't heard their record, and I, I gave the first one a listen, and honestly wasn't that excited about it, but it was... It was kind of, like at this point in my life, it's like I kinda knew, like, if I'm gonna give the music thing another go, like this is, this is gonna be it. You know? It's like, do this, and it'll either catch fire or it won't, and if it doesn't, I'll go on to the next chapter, whatever that is, and, um, so I, I kinda... I can't... I don't even think I auditioned for the band. I think they just, "Okay, you're in." So now we're looking for a drummer, so I went and poached, uh, my friend Sean back home in Washington, who played in a band that I was a big fan of, and I was a big fan of Sean' and, like, convinced him to, like, come out to New York and, like, join this band that, you know, he'd never heard of, and I... It took a lot of convincing to get him to do it, but he did it, and so, um, this kind of Mindfunk 2.0 with Sean and I,

Jason Everman 20:21 uh, qu- like one plus side was, like, okay, m- major label, we'll get put on salary, like don't need a day job anymore, right? So, uh, once again, I'm, I'm a professional rock musician, which, not that I care about the title, but it, it was nice not to have the day job. So we get a house in, in, uh, Monmouth County, New Jersey in order to write the next record, so band house, five of us living in this house, um, and it was just r- it was routine, like we'd, we'd get together every day, rehearse, write songs, um, but I was given, um, more or less full creative reign for, for my ideas and stuff, which was fulfilling on that level. Um, the, the band was managed by, by John Zazula. Do you know who he- Johnny Z?

Joe Rogan 21:14 No.

Jason Everman 21:15 So he, he was like the dude who discovered Metallica. That's kinda his claim to fame, and he had a label called Megaforce Records, which... Great '80s movie, by the way, if you've never seen it (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 21:26 No.

Jason Everman 21:26 It's so good (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 21:27 It's about the band?

Jason Everman 21:28 No.

Joe Rogan 21:28 About-

Jason Everman 21:29 E- It's a, it's this horrible yet brilliant action movie from like 1982, I think, but that's a digression. Um, so J- John and Marsha had this management company cr- like Crazed Management. They owned Megaforce Records and that's the label that put out Kill 'Em All and the first pressing of Ride the Lightning, and they did, uh, Mercyful Fate, Melissa. They did, you know, some really good records, um, like the, the first Anthrax records as well, I think. So John managed some, some pretty big bands, like he managed Anthrax, Suicidal Tendencies, uh, uh, Ministry I think, um, like he, he was this kind of, um, known quantity in the music world, or at least in the heavy metal world, hard rock world, whatever you wanna call it. So we had Johnny Z, signed to Epic, um, had the house in Jersey, writing the record, um, like with the, the name Mindfunk, which again is like a dumb name, it kinda turned me off initially, so I suggested, like, making it one word, like contracting it to make it a little less odious (laughs) , so I did that, kinda, kinda changed the, the logo, um, so it's kind of slipping in some aesthetic values that I thought, uh, were better at least than what, what was going on at the time.

Joe Rogan 22:52 Why'd you hate Mindfunk so much?

Jason Everman 22:54 It's just a dumb name, you know?

Joe Rogan 22:55 (laughs)

Jason Everman 22:55 It's like the whole funk thing, it's like uh-

Joe Rogan 22:57 Right.

Jason Everman 22:58 ... what, Chili Peppers, like what? No, it wasn't like that at all.

Joe Rogan 23:00 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 23:00 You know? Um, but you know, there's a lot of dumb band names out there, and if, if the band catches fire, it doesn't matter if it's a dumb name. It just gets accepted, so that, it's not that big a deal. Um, so recording, blah, blah, blah, Johnny Z (laughs) , we get to, um, so we get Terry Date, uh, the producer, on board to produce the second record, and he... I knew him, he's from Seattle, so I knew him from Soundgarden and from, uh, like other local bands that he produced, like, like a known quantity in that world. Um, we get... We book out Bearsville Studio up in Woodstock, New York, um, like th- those studio's literally like on this old, you know, Dutch farm, it's like idyllic. So we get, uh, Bearsville booked out for three months, got Terry Date on board, um, it's like a, it's September of '90... Must be September '92, um, w- we pack up the U-Haul, all the gear, uh, drive up to Bearsville to start the next record. So Sean and I are in the barn setting up equipment on this farm to start the pre-production work, like-... I don't know. It was probably a Saturday. Or no, it was a Friday. It w- was definitely a Friday. So, we're, we're setting up the equipment to start pre-production work when Terry gets in, and, uh, I think Pat came down to the barn as we're setting up, and it's this late September, you know, the, the heat has kinda left, like, New York State, so it's p- it's pleasant outside, and it was a beautiful, sunny, uh, farm, (laughs) you know, this old barn we're setting up equipment in. And Pat says, "Hey, uh, we gotta get everyone together. We, like, got some bad news." (laughs) And so, Epic, the label, had dropped the band, like, that day, like, poof, like, like catastrophic, right? Or could have been catastrophic. And just the fact that it was, like, a Friday afternoon, I'm sure it was, like, a Post-It note on some dude at Epic's, like, computer monitor, "Drop Mindfunk."

Narrator 25:23 Oh.

Jason Everman 25:23 You know? (laughs) It's like, "Oh, shit, I gotta do that." So, it's like, uh, fuck, you know. It's like, uh, a $300,000 recording budget, um, Terry Date, his producer, uh, like, ev- the band's literally homeless, like, we're gonna live at the studio, but it's like, "Okay, what now?" So, the dude who managed Bearsville, and I can't remember his name, he's this British guy, uh, super sweet, and he's like, he saw we were in a tight spot, and he's like, it, you know, and he's out, like, a huge lump of money, right? 'Cause they, that studio was booked out for three months. That's like a huge, you know, quarter million dollars probably. Um, he's like, "You guys can stay here and sort out what you gotta sort out," kind of thing. So, um, I remember Pat and I were living in one of the cottages on the property, it was like this very quaint little farmhouse, and like, we're, you know, at least, I won't speak for everyone, but I was in a daze. I was like, um, "Fuck." You know, I was like, already, like, lining up getting my warehouse job back, like all this stuff. And so, I remember just, like, staying in this house, uh, sleeping on this antique leather sofa, and I had my cat with me. So, it was me and my cat, watching bad daytime TV. I think I lived on, like, Cheerios and, like, soda, like s- just nasty, right? Just 'cause I was too lazy to go, go to a restaurant or buy food to cook or, it was just like, it's easy, f- bowl of cereal and some soda. Like, this just sounds so gross now, and that, even then, like, that's not how I normally ate, but (laughs) during that period, that's what I was eating. So, I was watching bad daytime television, um, and I remember there was this, um, wall hanging in the room, in the living room, and it was this macrame, like, koala bear, (laughs) you know? Be- kind- kind of tacky, and, uh, I kind of started obsessing on this macrame koala bear to the point where it's like, "If, if I ever have a daughter, I'm gonna name her Koala Macrame."

Narrator 27:29 (laughs)

Jason Everman 27:31 You know, again, dumb-

Narrator 27:32 Oh, no.

Jason Everman 27:32 ... speaking of dumb names.

Narrator 27:34 (laughs)

Jason Everman 27:35 But, um, luckily that passed, and I came up with a, a replacement for a, a daughter's name that was m- much better. But, um, so during that week, um, Johnny Z, our, our manager, who, uh, personally I didn't really like him that much, you know? Um, he w- he was kinda, he's a l- eh, there was something kinda dodgy about him, like in that music business way.

Narrator 28:01 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 28:02 That, uh, also put a bad taste in my mouth, um, on a lotta levels, um, just b- being in that, that industry. But Johnny, you know, as much as I didn't like him, he came through, and maybe he was motivated by economic reasons rather than, you know, he's being a stand-up guy or whatever. But he signed the band to Megaforce, to his label. Um, p- put up the money for the recording, to record the record, put us all back on salary so it didn't miss a beat, like, no one had to get a day job. And then Terry, Terry Date, much to his credit, like, he, he had every right to bail, right? He's like, "Pff, okay. What, what's the next gig? Okay, I'm there." He got us, um, studio time at Bad Animals Studio in Seattle, which is Heart's old recording studio. It's gone now. Um, like, all this happened in, like, a week, 10 days. Um, like, everything was back on track, just like new label, uh, new studio in Seattle. And so, loaded up the gear, flew to Seattle, and w- like probably 10 days later, we're doing pre-production demos at Bad Animals and recorded the record and it was done, I think, by December. The mix was done. I actually went back to New York and, and worked in the warehouse for a month to make some extra money, and then the band, well, not the whole band but, uh, Sean, Pat, and I, um, decided to move to San Francisco just for, like, a change of venue. So, d- I think New Year's Day or the day after, um, I loaded up a U-Haul with all our stuff and, like, drove cross country by myself, which was, like, a super fun road trip. And then we got an apartment in the Mission District in San Francisco, and that's where, like, (laughs) like, 1993 was, uh, a very transitional year, and that's where it kinda, uh, uh, things got to the point where it's like, "Okay, I gotta do something different for me personally."

Narrator 30:10 And what happens next?

Jason Everman 30:13 So the, we're living in San Francisco, like, that, like, e- even w- the, while we're living in the house in New Jersey, um, during the recording process in Seattle and, and in San Francisco, like, like taking a lot of drugs, like a lotta, hallucinogens mostly.... but, you know, had, had my flirtation with heroin, like first started, um, just smoking it, you know, on, on tinfoil, and then went into IV use. Um, and like I honestly enjoyed it, but it never got its hooks in me. And I got to the point where I was like, "Uh, yeah, I sh- I should probably not continue down this path," and walked away from it.

Joe Rogan 30:54 That's a big step to go to intravenous.

Jason Everman 30:56 Yeah. (laughs) Well, like, I'm, I'm a completist, I guess.

Joe Rogan 31:00 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 31:00 It's like I wanna, I don't wanna do it half-

Joe Rogan 31:03 Yeah.

Jason Everman 31:03 ... halfway.

Joe Rogan 31:03 See what the fuss is all about.

Jason Everman 31:04 Yeah, exactly.

Joe Rogan 31:05 Yeah.

Jason Everman 31:06 It's-

Joe Rogan 31:06 What is the fuss all about?

Jason Everman 31:08 Uh, sort of the feeling, uh, what's your experience with opiates?

Joe Rogan 31:12 Oh, only like while I've been under, like h- having surgery.

Jason Everman 31:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:17 I do-

Jason Everman 31:17 So it's the same.

Joe Rogan 31:18 Yeah.

Jason Everman 31:19 Just that kinda weightless feeling.

Joe Rogan 31:20 It's very nice.

Jason Everman 31:21 Like it's, uh, I guess the, the analogy I can make is just that kinda post-orgasmic bliss-

Joe Rogan 31:27 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 31:27 ... where you're weightless and everything feels wonderful, just like that. Y- you know, but induced ar- artificially, I guess. Um, living in San Francisco, so we toured a lot that year, probably half the year was touring like Europe and the States. And then when we were back in San Francisco, it was like, you know, still on salary, you didn't have to work, so just hang out and like, you know, drop acid or, or drink mushroom tea or whatever. And (laughs) as fun as that is, it was like, uh, like long-term, I don't know, you know, if this is gonna be right. And it, you know, the, the record never caught fire. I think it's a solid record. Like when I hear tracks off of it now, you know, I'm kinda like, "Meh, it's not bad. No, it's okay." Um, there's a g- a couple of the songs on that record were basi- basically, uh, nascent Soundgarden songs, you know? They were like riffs or song ideas I had that while playing with Soundgarden, like Chris would hear me playing it, like noodling around, and he'd be like, "Oh, remember that," you know? And so I had a couple ideas that i- i- in a, in a, in a different life would've been on the next Soundgarden record, conceivably. So there's a couple of those songs on there, uh, and not a bad record. And w- we did, um, played like a bunch of the big festivals in Europe, like we, we did pretty much everything but make a bunch of money, you know? Which is, again, most bands, you know, most bands don't catch fire.

Joe Rogan 33:11 So what happened? (laughs)

Jason Everman 33:13 So dur- during this period, 1993, um, I s- I started, I guess, crafting the next, the next chapter, right? For me. And I'd always been really intrigued by the military. Um, my grandfather, both my grandfathers, were World War II vets. Um, so my maternal grandfather was a tank commander in World War II, and he was kinda my introduction to, like, m- military stuff, you know? And I'm, I'm a little kid, so I'm intrigued by it, like, you know, "Oh, tank commander, that's cool." Like, he, on D-Day, he was an E4 corporal, like gunner, on a Sherman tank. On VE Day, his unit had made it all the way to Vienna, and he was a company commander, and it was just survival, like attrition. Like, uh, you know, I'm sure he was a fine soldier, but it was just attrition, that he went from corporal to captain in, you know, a year or whatever. Um, my grandmother's second husband, um, was a, a corpsman in the Navy, so his story's super funny. Like he grew up in this small town on the Columbia River in Washington State, so his... I think there was like 20 dudes in his graduating class in high school, and so they graduated June 1942. So right after graduation, like 201, like every, every male in his class went to the recruiter and enlisted. And so he went in the Navy, um, his Navy MOS was like, uh, a pharmacist mate or something like that, so he's like, "Oh, I'll be on the ship like working in the dispensary or whatever." Like, wrong, like he graduates, like they give him a helmet and attach him to a Marine platoon, infantry platoon, and like, "You're the medic." And so he did like seven amphibious assaults in the Pacific, like (laughs) like crazy stuff, right?

Joe Rogan 35:17 Wow.

Jason Everman 35:17 Yeah. Like it was super hard, and he had amazing stories, you know? Um, and then my, my father's father was in the Coast Guard, and he did, um, a lot of coastal patrolling, um, Oregon coast, Washington coast, Columbia River, during the war, um, just, you know, looking for Japanese subs or whatever.

Joe Rogan 35:37 And so you... because you had this sort of wanderlust that made you wanna go trek in the Himalayas and-

Jason Everman 35:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:44 ... you had this family that had this background in the military, you were thinking that this would be something that would be adventurous or intriguing to you?

Jason Everman 35:54 Y- yeah. Like I've always, I've always had a taste for like high adventure, like a- as a child. Like before, (sighs) probably even before I was at school, so like Sat- Saturday morning cartoons, like y- how old are you?

Joe Rogan 36:08 55.

Jason Everman 36:08 Yeah, we're the same age. So I imagine probably grew up with similar cultural influences. So I remember in the, like mornings watching TV shows, like cartoons, like Johnny Quest was the big one, right?

Joe Rogan 36:21 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 36:21 Uh, Speed Racer-

Joe Rogan 36:23 Yep.

Jason Everman 36:23 ... Mo- Marine Boy, like all this... You know, and Speed Racer and Marine Boy were a- were anime, but they were like great, you know... Marine Boy was basically Speed Racer but underwater.... you know, it's super cool, fantastical stuff, um, great to feed the imagination. Like, the, the writing for Jonny Quest was so good, you know? And, like, the show in, in retrospect was, like, kinda progressive. It's like, Jonny had two dads, and like, they had this, like, um, multiracial, like, composite family (laughs) . Like, it was, like... But the writing was so solid, like super creative, um, every... I think it was only 26 episodes, but each episode is distinct and well-written, and just, just cool, you know? So, I would watch this as a kid and be like, "I'm not sure what that is, but I wanna do that." You know? So that was kinda the initial impetus for, like... And then growing up in the woods in Western Washington, like, I was expected, you know... I was kicked outside after breakfast and not expected to be seen again till dinnertime, and what I did between then was, like, on me. And so I'd go out and do stupid stuff like climb high-tension power lines-

Narrator 37:37 Oof.

Jason Everman 37:38 ... you know, to the top (laughs) , like, five, six years old.

Narrator 37:40 Jesus.

Jason Everman 37:40 Like, so, so, so stupid, right? But it was like, "Oh, this is cool," you know? Um, like, my... And my mother, she definitely facilitated the stuff, like, um, much to her credit. Like, we'd go camping, uh, in the Olympic Rainforest on the peninsula, and there's, like, a couple rivers there, but one of the main ones is the Hoh River. And I had this, as a child, I had that, like, this $20, you know, Kmart inflatable raft with the oars, and my mom would drive me upriver, like, like, 10 miles or 15 miles or whatever in our Volkswagen bus, and, like, drop me off, me and my, my $20 Kmart boat in a, a life vest, and she'd be like, "All right. See you at the campground." And so I would be doing (laughs) this, like, you know, white, white water rafting by myself in my, in my cheesy little boat for several, several miles, and, you know, didn't drown, obviously. But it, it kind of instilled, again, this, or reinforced this sense of adventure, you know? And I'm sure my mom would go to jail for that today, (laughs) you know?

Narrator 38:53 Probably not jail, but-

Jason Everman 38:54 Yeah.

Narrator 38:55 ... definitely be discouraged.

Jason Everman 38:56 Mm-hmm. Um, so that's background for the high adventure thing, the military thing. Um... So 1993, I'm like, "Okay," um, like, "I, I need to do something. I need that punctuated equilibrium," right? "I need, I need a, uh, a dramatic event in order to promulgate, like, the, the next period of growth or evolution or whatever."

Narrator 39:24 So you really actively thought that way?

Jason Everman 39:26 Yeah.

Narrator 39:27 That you were trying to achieve growth?

Jason Everman 39:29 The... Yeah, I didn't wanna stagnate. I didn't wanna, um, fall behind, you know? Um, a- as... Like, like, I guess as soon as I figured out what life authorship was, or the concept, even though I made, may have not have known the term, yeah, I kind of endeavored to actively author my own life, um, um, you know, pursuing the ends of making a life that kept me engaged, kept me interested, um, and was, was meaningful to me, you know? So the military seemed like, like more and more like a viable option for, for that next, that next page, that next step. So I, I... At the time, like 1993, there wasn't a lot of books out about special operations, um, and pretty much the only ones y- that were out there were, like, Vietnam dudes, so I, I devoured every, you know, Vietnam War special operations book, whether it was like LERPs, Rangers, SEALs, uh, SF, whatever.

Narrator 40:35 Had Dick Marcinko written his books yet?

Jason Everman 40:38 That, I don't know. Um, I don't think so, 'cause I think I would've remembered reading them. I read one of 'em when I was, um, in gulag in Ranger school, and it s- it seemed kinda (laughs) like, over the top to me, b- but that's a, a digression. I think there was one book out about, like, uh, the SOF experience during the first Gulf War, and it, it kind of went over different units and different operations, and I think that's the

Jason Everman 41:08 only kinda contemporary one that I was even out, but it was like, "Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna do this." So, while we're in San Francisco, you know, between, like, dropping acid and taking mushrooms (laughs) , I was going to the recruiter. And, like, uh, I went to the Navy recruiter first 'cause I actually knew someone who was a SEAL, a former SEAL, and so that seemed intriguing to me. So I go to the Navy recruiter, and I'm like, "Hey, I wanna, I wanna be a SEAL." And they're like, "Well, um, here. Take the ASVAB." So the ASVAB is, like, this IQ test that the military gives you. And, uh, so I took it, and I, I s- scored pretty high on it. And so they're trying to push me into, like, more technical MOSes, you know? And I'm like, "But no, that's not what I wanna-"

Narrator 41:59 What does MOS stand for?

Jason Everman 42:00 Oh, sorry, um, if I get too jargony-

Narrator 42:03 That's okay.

Jason Everman 42:03 ... please stop me.

Narrator 42:04 Yeah.

Jason Everman 42:04 Um, Military Occupational Specialty.

Narrator 42:06 Okay.

Jason Everman 42:06 Your, your, your job.

Narrator 42:07 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 42:09 And I... The Navy doesn't even call it MOS. I think they call it RATE or something like that. And so I'm like, "No, I don't wanna do that." So basically, it came down to they couldn't even promise me a shot at, at trying out for BUD/S, you know? Take- taking the PT test, basically. And so, uh, I didn't know really anything about the military, but I knew enough, o- or I suspected enough, that like, "Okay, I'm not g- I'm not gonna sign anything unless I'm, like, guaranteed a shot." And so that's when I started talking to the Army recruiter, um-... and, uh, they could guarantee me. So basically they gave me a ranger contract. So Ranger Regiment's interesting in that it's pretty much the only special operations unit in the US military that has, has privates, like has brand new soldiers. Um, pretty much every other unit, it's all NCOs. So that's kinda, that's kinda your entry level soft unit in the US military, is ranger regiment.

Joe Rogan 43:15 And so what happens?

Jason Everman 43:18 Uh, so I finish my Mindfunk touring obligations, which went pretty much almost up until Christmas, like in, in des- mid-December, say. And, uh, like left the band, uh, and I think two months later I was in basic training.

Joe Rogan 43:42 What were you thinking while you were in basic training?

Jason Everman 43:44 Uh, I mean, basic training's like, it was like every movie cliche you've seen, like happens. It's like, "Oh, and this is, you know, this part."

Joe Rogan 43:58 (laughs)

Jason Everman 43:58 Um, it was, uh, it was a necessary step, right, for t- for the progression. Um, it wasn't really challenging. Other ... The most challenging part about it was, like not being able to do what I wanted to do whenever I wanted to do it. That was like the biggest challenge for me. Um, your, your entire life, your ... every minute of your day is controlled. So that was kinda like, "Yeah, I don't know if I d- dig this," you know? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:27 Right.

Jason Everman 44:28 And, uh, but, you know, sucked it up, went through it, um, after, um, what they call AIT, like Advanced Individual Training, which for me was infantry. You go through the infantry MOS training, uh, go to Airborne School, and then go to, uh, s- selection for regiment.

Joe Rogan 44:49 So was ... What was the physical aspect of it like? 'Cause it seemed like you were just partying and living life, uh, you know, like a rock star before that. You just, doing heroin and all this stuff-

Jason Everman 45:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:01 ... and then all of a sudden, you know, you're involved in something that's very physically grueling.

Jason Everman 45:06 But I, I did, I did prep. Like I got a, a YMCA membership, and I was swimming at the Y. I was running. I was, uh, I ... Even though I was kinda going into it somewhat blind, I didn't know- I knew that, like I can't just show up, like and not have any kind of fitness level, you know?

Joe Rogan 45:25 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 45:26 So I, I did do some prep work, and I, I think it served me well.

Joe Rogan 45:29 Was that the first time you had done physical stuff like that in your life?

Jason Everman 45:33 No. I mean, I w- I was never ... Eh, I played soccer when I was a kid. Um, like the s- soccer was like the, the one sport that wasn't ... didn't have that jock culture, you know?

Joe Rogan 45:46 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 45:47 So that's kinda what I gravitated towards, so uh ... And, you know, I did a lot of physical outside stuff like my whole life, you know. I, I worked in Alaska on a fishing boat, like, um, there was nothing ... It wasn't foreign, you know, like ph- physical exertion.

Joe Rogan 46:04 And so what happens then?

Jason Everman 46:09 Uh, go to selection, uh, at the time it was called RIP, like the, the Ranger Indoctrination Program. Uh, now they call it RASP, like the Ranger Assessment and Selection Program, something like that. Um, and I think it's a week longer now. But like, like RIP is when th- things got physically challenging, for sure. It was basically, you just get abused for three weeks basically. You know, they try to make you quit. And so like th- the runs, like we'd do these like non-standard runs in RIP that was ... It pushed, pushed me to my limits, like I was always kinda at the back of the pack, um, like I was still with the main body, so I was, I was keeping up. I was meeting the standard, but like right behind me were like all the dudes who were like getting put on the truck, like "You're done." You know?

Joe Rogan 47:00 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 47:01 So I was like, you look at that and like (laughs) dig a little deeper, and like keep going, you know? Um, but yeah, got, got selected, um, and went to 2nd Ranger Battalion.

Joe Rogan 47:15 And, uh, did you immediately get deployed? Like what, what year are we talking about here?

Jason Everman 47:19 This was '93. No, '94.

Joe Rogan 47:22 Okay.

Jason Everman 47:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:22 So this post-Desert Storm.

Jason Everman 47:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:25 Wh- what was the environment like?

Jason Everman 47:27 Um, so it was like, it was, uh, Clinton era military, um, peacetime military, so like, uh, everything was geared towards training, right? Like there was a few dudes in, in my company who were like Panama vets, and so that was like nine- 1989, I think. Just cause. So there was some of those dudes hanging out, and I could tell they were just waiting for the next, like real world op. That's all they were doing. They were biding time. And like, uh, now I get it, uh, and I, I think even then I kinda got it, but, um, for the, just training-

Joe Rogan 48:05 What do you mean by get it?

Jason Everman 48:07 Like, you know, that's ... You, you wanna do it for real.

Joe Rogan 48:10 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 48:10 You, you still wanna train all the time.

Joe Rogan 48:12 Right.

Jason Everman 48:13 So, yeah, it was just a lotta, a lot of training. Um, there was deployments, but it was just all training deployments. Um, yeah. You know, went to, went to ranger school, I got my ranger tab.

Joe Rogan 48:30 And what happens after that?

Jason Everman 48:32 (laughs) Uh, I finished my enlistment. It was like a four-year enlistment, I think, and then I, I got out, 'cause it was like ... Uh, in a way I kinda thought like I achieved what I aimed to achieve by going in the military, and there definitely, you know, wasn't a, a war on the horizon, at least one that no one, that anyone could see.Um, so I had a break in service for a couple years, and I, I kinda fucked off. Um, ended up going, uh, to community college, which is, like, another kinda funny story. (laughs)

Narrator 49:15 (laughs)

Jason Everman 49:16 If you're interested.

Narrator 49:16 Sure.

Jason Everman 49:18 So, uh, I, I came back to Washington basically, um, when my, when my mother died. And so, I, I was kind of, like, dealing with, with her and her stuff. And it was like, there's a, a local community college, uh, where I grew up, and like, "Oh, maybe, maybe I'll give this college thing a try." You know? And so I registered for some classes. But the, the funny thing ab- about that story is, when I was, like, eight- 18 I guess, 17, like, right before I graduated high school, um, all my friends from high school who were gonna go to college, 'cause like in my mind I was never gonna go. I was like, "Why am I gonna go to college?" Like, "Fuck this." You know? I was, you know, a- angry young man, uh, dissatisfied on pretty much every level, but I was like, "Yeah, I'm not going to college. Col- college has nothing for me." But I wanted to hang out with my friends, like the dudes I skateboarded with and played music with and stuff, and so they were all going to take their SATs at the local community college, like on a Saturday morning or whatever it was. And so I went with them, just so I could hang out with them. But... (laughs) And I, I took the SATs, but I took my SATs on acid.

Narrator 50:40 (laughs)

Jason Everman 50:41 (laughs)

Narrator 50:41 How'd that go?

Jason Everman 50:42 I have no idea.

Narrator 50:43 (clears throat)

Jason Everman 50:43 And I, I didn't care. I never picked up, you know, the scores. Like, who... It was probably just, like, making designs on the paper or something.

Narrator 50:50 (laughs)

Jason Everman 50:50 Like, you know? Like, I, at that point, like, academia, like higher education, that, that ju- just wasn't gonna happen for me. And so yeah, it was kinda this fuck you punk rock thing. Like, "Phew, I'm gonna take my SATs on acid."

Narrator 51:05 Right.

Jason Everman 51:06 So fast-forward 10 years, I'm in that same room at Olympic College in a class (laughs) ta- taking a- an astronomy class. Um, th- and the building is still there. It's called the rotunda and it's this round, as you can imagine, building on campus. And, uh, yeah, so who's laughing now? (laughs) You know?

Narrator 51:28 So what was your idea, like, doing that, taking astronomy classes, going to college?

Jason Everman 51:35 Uh, again, personal growth. Like, "Oh, may- maybe I should focus on this aspect now, like a- academia." Like, so I, I did that first semester, first two semesters at Olympic College and found that I liked it. You know? I like going to class and I like taking notes and I like learning, and I'm like, "Oh, oh, I get it now." You know? This whole college thing. So I finish my associate's, um, at Olympic College and then, uh, went back in the Army. And so I was in this Special Forces Qualification Course, like when 9/11 happened.

Narrator 52:16 And what caused you to go back in the Army?

Jason Everman 52:18 Uh, it wa- it w- it was a gut feeling. It was like, "I, I don't think I'm done with this." So, uh, I, I went, went to selection, got selected, and selection, at least at the time, was good for life basically.

Narrator 52:32 So how many years were you out?

Jason Everman 52:34 Like two.

Narrator 52:35 Two years ago?

Jason Everman 52:35 Yeah, not, not long, not long at all.

Narrator 52:37 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 52:38 And, and, you know, I blink now and two years goes by. But a, a lot had happened personally in those two years. And so I'm back, back in the Army, uh, doing the Special Forces Qualification Course, which for my MOS, like the 18 Bravo Special Forces Weapons Sergeant, was, like, about a year and a half. So it was the first day of language school, um, which was six months long, um, was 9/11.

Narrator 53:08 Wow.

Jason Everman 53:08 Yeah.

Narrator 53:10 What was it like being in the military when 9/11 went down?

Jason Everman 53:15 It was, like, uh, I think everyone there... So we're, there's a group of us in this building at Fort Bragg called the SOAF, the Special Operations Academic Facility, and we're, you know, st- standing around the beginning of the day, like, drinking coffee, getting ready to go to class. First day of class, and there's television monitors on with C- CNN or whatever, and you, we're watching the planes go into the tower. And, like, I think 201 everyone knew that everything's changing right now. It's like this is, like, 100% for real. And, like, everyone was like, "Yeah." You know? (laughs)

Narrator 53:53 That's how you felt?

Jason Everman 53:53 Oh, yeah.

Narrator 53:54 Yeah.

Jason Everman 53:54 Yep.

Narrator 53:55 All the training.

Jason Everman 53:56 Yeah.

Narrator 53:56 Like, "Finally we're gonna do something."

Jason Everman 53:58 Mm-hmm.

Narrator 53:59 So what happens then?

Jason Everman 54:01 Uh, I'm in language school for another six months. So-

Narrator 54:04 What are you learning?

Jason Everman 54:06 Uh, Thai.

Narrator 54:08 Why Thai?

Jason Everman 54:09 It was just, like, my, my unit's, uh, area of responsibility was Asia, and so I had to do an Asian language. And I like Thai food. (laughs)

Narrator 54:19 (laughs)

Jason Everman 54:19 (laughs) So, um, graduate with a Q-Course, like, do a couple of JSETs in Asia. So a JSET's a joint combined, uh, exchange training. So you basically go, or your, your team goes and trains with a foreign, uh, special operations unit, and you, you teach them stuff, or you, you know. It... And it's more just to, like, establish rapport and, and maybe get some access or whatever. So do a couple JSETs in Asia and then, uh, get ready to go to Iraq, uh, to prep for the invasion, like in '02, and, like, spend a lot of time in Kuwait just, like, training and p- getting... preparing.

Joe Rogan 55:03 What was it like when you went there?

Jason Everman 55:05 To Iraq?

Joe Rogan 55:06 Yeah.

Jason Everman 55:08 So, (sighs) that, that was, like, my first, like, combat experience, and so it was unique in that... So, my team and a couple other teams were basically attached to, um, the 4th ID to provide kinda route reconnaissance and screening and stuff for the kind of this main, uh, conventional military, you know, invasion. And so watching, watching big army work, you know, do, do what they do best was pretty amazing. Like, uh, like, tank engagements, like, I never thought I'd witness that. Um, it, it was just almost like a, a... and it's probably a, a trite cliche, but like a movie, you know? Watching this massive mechanized force just, like, crush everything in its path. So, yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:09 When you were over there, was any doubt that you had done the right thing by enlisting a- again?

Jason Everman 56:14 Oh, yeah, no doubt.

Joe Rogan 56:15 No doubt at all?

Jason Everman 56:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:16 You were geared up and ready to go?

Jason Everman 56:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:19 So what happened when you were over there?

Jason Everman 56:22 Uh, d- I, uh, got in some gunfights, (laughs) you know, uh, hit some targets, um, and then, you know, re- redeployed back to the States.

Joe Rogan 56:32 You say that so casually, "Got in gunfights and hit some targets." Like, it had to be a pretty extreme experience.

Jason Everman 56:38 Y- Yeah, but honestly, I, I think my Afghan experiences were, uh, more intense than Ir- Iraq, for sure.

Joe Rogan 56:44 Yeah?

Jason Everman 56:45 Yeah. It's just a... It was a different animal.

Joe Rogan 56:48 And when did that happen?

Jason Everman 56:50 So d- did, uh, some rotations in Afghanistan following, uh, the Iraq invasion, and it was kind of the more traditional, like, SF mission, like, working with indigenous troops and, and leading them on, on raids and things like that.

Joe Rogan 57:07 That's got to be a wild change of life to go from being a musician to go from being a deployed special operator in Afghanistan. Like, the shift in consciousness is so extreme.

Jason Everman 57:25 (sighs) M- maybe.

Joe Rogan 57:26 Maybe?

Jason Everman 57:27 But I, I, I, I think I'm pretty good at just with rolling with stuff, you know? It's like, "Oh, this is happening now, okay?"

Joe Rogan 57:35 But that's a big-

Jason Everman 57:36 But that's good.

Joe Rogan 57:36 ... happening.

Jason Everman 57:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:37 That's a huge happening-

Jason Everman 57:39 Yeah. I don't-

Joe Rogan 57:40 ... to be in combat.

Jason Everman 57:43 Uh, I mean, definitely, I think the war in, in combat was the most profound experience of my life, for sure. And, and I, I don't mean to maybe treat it lightly, 'cause I don't take it lightly. Yeah, it's f- by far the most profound experience of my life.

Joe Rogan 58:00 So many guys who come back from that, not only do they say it's the most profound experience of their life, but many of them say it was the best experience of their life.

Jason Everman 58:10 Um, I understand that, for sure. Like, uh, I guess I could encapsulate it like this. Like, uh, you, you got, you got your, your dudes, you know, your, your, your team, your, your little indigenous troopers, and you're gonna go crush some target. And, you know, you, you know, like, I never had a doubt that, um, like, maybe I would get injured or killed, but the, the, the, the... I never had a doubt that the mission would fail, just 'cause the, the odds were just in our favor, you know? It's like, you got night vision, you got a, a, a CAS stack, you got this huge support apparatus. It's like, there's no way we're not gonna win this fight. Um, but, but going on target, closing with, destroying the enemy, and then getting you and all your dudes back to base alive, best feeling in the world.

Joe Rogan 59:05 Really?

Jason Everman 59:05 Yeah. Uh-

Joe Rogan 59:07 So many guys say that.

Jason Everman 59:08 Best feeling in the world.

Joe Rogan 59:10 Wow.

Jason Everman 59:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:12 What is it l... Like, what... Can you describe it?

Jason Everman 59:14 (laughs) I, I, I, it's, um-

Joe Rogan 59:17 Or give an attempt?

Jason Everman 59:18 I... I think (sighs) like, and I got my, uh, kinda evolutionary ideas about why that is.

Joe Rogan 59:26 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 59:27 Um, I think that we're, we're, on a very essential level, like, doing what human beings, or one of the things we're meant to do.

Joe Rogan 59:40 Or maybe one of the things we've always done.

Jason Everman 59:42 Well, yeah. We're an adversarial species, but like, every species in nature is adversarial.

Joe Rogan 59:48 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 59:48 You know, and it, it's not an evaluative sta- a- evaluative statement. It's just kind of a, an observation. So I think on this g- i- just the way our brains are, like, uh, evolutionarily, like, okay, w- we're, we're the monkeys with the big brains, right?

Joe Rogan 1:00:05 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 1:00:05 And we've created this very technologically, um, advanced, if not challenging, environment now that we live in. But the way... Our, our firmware up here, we're still hominids on the savanna, you know? Like, 100%. And so it... I think through, through war, through combat, we kinda tap into that primal, "Okay, this is what we're supposed to do." You know? And-

Joe Rogan 1:00:35 Was that surprising to have that part of your mind sort of ignited in a, in a sense where you realize that, like, this is, like, something that's deeply embedded in your DNA?

Jason Everman 1:00:46 Y- yeah. I mean, uh, I'm, I, I know I'm making that claim, but it's, it's, it's, it's not based on, like, scientific research I've done. It's just kind of an i- intuition.

Joe Rogan 1:00:56 Well, many, many make that claim.

Jason Everman 1:00:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:58 It's, it's not a uncommon thought.

Jason Everman 1:01:00 Yeah. So it, it, it rings true to me, and, like, uh, have you read like a...... that Se- Sebastian Junger book-

Joe Rogan 1:01:07 Yes.

Jason Everman 1:01:07 ... Tribe.

Joe Rogan 1:01:07 Yeah. Great book.

Jason Everman 1:01:09 So, yeah. I, and like his thesis, like that's the first kinda PTSD thesis I read that kinda rang true with me, 'cause like before that the popular conception was, you know, the- these young men and women go off to war and see horrible things and come back fucked up. But like his thesis, where they- they lose that- lose that tribe, right, that task and purpose, uh, u- unity of effort, you know, literally we're- we're- we're tribal creatures.

Joe Rogan 1:01:38 Yeah.

Jason Everman 1:01:38 Like that's- that's what we... That's how we operate. Like I- I- I did a paper when I was doing my undergrad, um, I think I was trying to investigate like, uh, genetic impetus for like human conflict or whatever, and like some... One of the, during my research one of the things I found that was super interesting to me was the way psychologically we're equipped to deal with about 100 to 120 individuals, like that- that- that would be our extended tribe, our social group.

Joe Rogan 1:02:10 Dunbar's number.

Jason Everman 1:02:12 Is that what it is?

Joe Rogan 1:02:13 Yeah.

Jason Everman 1:02:13 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:02:14 Yeah, it's, um, this, th- this group of people that you can contain in your mind.

Jason Everman 1:02:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:18 And there, and it, it's segmented. There's like a- a small number p- of people you're intimately attached to. There's a- a- a larger number that are close but more like associates and friends-

Jason Everman 1:02:31 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:02:31 ... and then there's people that you know, and it extends out. It actually extends even further than 120 or 150. It gets to like people you are aware of.

Jason Everman 1:02:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:40 But it's- it's fairly small, which is one of the weird things about knowing a lot of people.

Jason Everman 1:02:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:45 Is that n- that number gets really weird, and then your- your memory of people, it's almost like your brain deletes them 'cause there's no room.

Jason Everman 1:02:55 Like i- but then it, like how well do you know them as well?

Joe Rogan 1:02:58 Right, right.

Jason Everman 1:02:58 You know, like how- how intimate is that relationship? But, abso- an interesting correlation I made, like researching this paper was that that number is- is the same number, um, in Army Task Organization as an infantry company-

Joe Rogan 1:03:13 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 1:03:13 ... is 120, and that's kind of like you- y- you know, your main operational unit a- as a, in the infantry at l- at least, like soft, you're dealing with smaller teams-

Joe Rogan 1:03:24 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 1:03:24 ... smaller numbers. But I- I thought, "Wow, 120, that's it."

Joe Rogan 1:03:29 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 1:03:29 You know, and is that by d- design or is that just the way it worked out?

Joe Rogan 1:03:32 It's probably goes back to our tribal roots-

Jason Everman 1:03:36 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:36 ... most likely that we evolved being a- accustomed to that group of people, that number of people, or a similar number.

Jason Everman 1:03:43 Yeah, I mean just survival like, uh, like our- our mission statement as biological organisms, you know, e- even like the big-brained monkeys that we are, it's like, like survive and replicate the gene.

Joe Rogan 1:03:57 Yeah.

Jason Everman 1:03:57 And like everything else is kind of window dressing, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:03:59 Right.

Jason Everman 1:03:59 It's like-

Joe Rogan 1:04:00 Yeah.

Jason Everman 1:04:01 ... and like you- you- you can, uh, um, window dress it however you want to make it seem more important than that, but... And my- I'm- I'm a huge fan of the window dressing, like- like that's definitely the- the salt in the soup for sure.

Joe Rogan 1:04:15 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 1:04:15 But if you boil it down to, you know, it's, you know, what- what is the quiddity of being a human being? It's that, or any biological organism, like survive and- and replicate the gene. And so the- the whole capacity for- for combat, for human warfare is like even as an individual i- if- if you're killed in combat f- o- on, if you go back to like this group of hominids on the savanna, you're probably related to everyone in your group. So it's like, "Okay, maybe I won't pass my genes on, but my cousin over here will."

Joe Rogan 1:04:52 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 1:04:53 "So I- I'm gonna support that effort." So I think that kind of organized, um, uh, conflict one group against another, it's in support of that. Like I think anthropologists have a term for it, um, a pseudo-kinship w- where i- say in a combat situation, so you got like the- the classic, uh, scenario of like, uh, a dude jumping on a hand grenade to save his buddies.

Joe Rogan 1:05:19 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 1:05:19 You know? And that's like, that's hardwired, that's not a conscious decision.

Joe Rogan 1:05:24 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 1:05:24 You know, y- y- 'cause I think if- if you had time to actually think about it, maybe you wouldn't do it.

Joe Rogan 1:05:30 Right.

Jason Everman 1:05:30 You know? But it's that- that pseudo-kinship like, uh, that I think that's... And to me that's always what's been I think the most interesting paradox about war and combat, is it's this event, this human event, that simultaneously brings about i- acts of pure selfless love and brutality without quarter in the same instant.

Joe Rogan 1:06:01 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 1:06:02 So tha- that's always intrigued me.

Joe Rogan 1:06:04 Well, it's always fascinating for me to talk to people that are intelligent like yourself that have experienced that, because that- that thread that you're ex- you're expressing, it seems to ring true with almost a- all of them. That there's- there's something about it that although brutal and maybe in- in some ways unexpected, it also rings true with like a purpose, and that your life is intimately connected to these people and in some way that becomes more satisfying than any other way to live.

Jason Everman 1:06:44 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:06:46 Yeah, and to hear a person like yourself who's obviously very smart express that it's- it's always... It's really interesting to someone like myself who hasn't experienced that but kind of understands what you're saying.

Jason Everman 1:06:59 Uh, I'm sure you do. (laughs) I mean it's a-

Joe Rogan 1:07:01 Yeah.

Jason Everman 1:07:02 I'm sure it rings true with you, right?

Joe Rogan 1:07:03 Yeah.

Jason Everman 1:07:04 Like just- just intuitively.

Joe Rogan 1:07:06 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 1:07:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:06 Yeah.W-... And you're aware of this while you're experiencing? 'Cause you're obviously an analytical person, so you're aware of this while you're experiencing it.

Jason Everman 1:07:16 Um, so... (sighs) I can think of instances where I've had these flashes of awareness. Like, okay, I remember one target, like, we, we halved in, like, a helicopter assault for us. (sighs) So I was on the second 47. No, I think I was on the second lift, like, it was a pretty big element going in. And I remember landing in this poppy field, like, stepping off the ramp, and, like, I could hear gunfire. Like, there was already... It was already on, right? On target. And so I got my little (laughs) Afghan commando troopers, they were like, "Okay, man, let's go." And, like, I remember running up this hill, and I was aware in that moment, like, "Okay, this is odd." Th-... This is... You know, the cliché of, like, running to the gunfire. And I, I... Believe me, I don't consider myself, like, a heroic person at all. It was... It wasn't, it wasn't even a conscious decision. I was doing it, and it was like I was trying to get there as quickly as I could. And, and it did occur to me, like, "Yeah, this is kind of weird."

Joe Rogan 1:08:28 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 1:08:28 You know?

Joe Rogan 1:08:30 But it is your training, and it also is your purpose.

Jason Everman 1:08:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:33 Yeah.

Jason Everman 1:08:34 And I, I don't know which supervenes on what, but, yeah, for sure.

Joe Rogan 1:08:38 How bizarre was it, the whole poppy field thing? 'Cause I remember one of the most interesting, uh, aspects of the war was that we were protecting poppy fields, and there was this weird video, I don't know if you've ever seen it, of Geraldo Rivera, who was on Fox News, spinning this in some sort of a way, but realizing how ridiculous it sounded while he was interviewing a general who was on the f-... On the field, or I don't remember if it was a general or soldier who was on the field, who was explaining why they were doing this. That they were guarding the poppy fields so that these people could keep making heroin.

Jason Everman 1:09:17 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:09:18 And, you know, you're, you're looking at this and, especially someone who has a knowledge of Vietnam, that it was intimately connected with drug running, and that there was a lot of that going on, that was part of the purpose of it, in that somewhere someone was profiting off of this to the tune of billions of dollars.

Jason Everman 1:09:35 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:09:35 And you're not exactly sure how, or how it was being done, or what involvement the United States military had in it. But in this particular instance, you're living in the era of social media and the internet. Not, not necessarily social media, but at least the internet, where people are very aware of things like that, that are i-... At the very least inconsistent with the narrative that we have here in America, that drugs are bad. Bad people sell drugs. Bad people make drugs. We have to stop the drugs from getting into the country. Now, here you are. You know, we're, we're watching Geraldo Rivera, a Fox reporter, putting this, like, really clunky spin on why we have to do this. And I can only imagine it's because it had already been exposed that the United States was doing that, and they had to say, "Well, we have to come up with some sort of an excuse for why we're guarding heroin production."

Jason Everman 1:10:31 So (sighs) I guess my understanding of if, if the US mil was doing that is probably, like, a secondary consideration, 'cause, like, at least down south, like, that w-... That's a huge part of the economy.

Joe Rogan 1:10:44 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 1:10:45 It's like opium production.

Joe Rogan 1:10:46 Yeah.

Jason Everman 1:10:47 And I would guess it would be eradicating, like, the, the poppy fields would be a worse choice. Like, like, economically d- destabilizing, like, you know, these people who are already super poor.

Joe Rogan 1:10:59 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 1:11:01 Um...

Joe Rogan 1:11:01 But it's also, for sure-

Jason Everman 1:11:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:04 ... aiding in the profit of selling heroin.

Jason Everman 1:11:06 Oh. Oh, yeah. I mean, like, the, the Taliban would make money from opium production.

Joe Rogan 1:11:10 Yeah.

Jason Everman 1:11:11 You know, even though it's against Islam or whatever.

Joe Rogan 1:11:12 Yeah.

Jason Everman 1:11:13 It's like... Yeah. No, it was... I, I don't know how to crack that nut.

Joe Rogan 1:11:17 Was that talked about over there?

Jason Everman 1:11:19 Nah. I mean, like, DE-... I know DEA was over there doing, doing their thing.

Joe Rogan 1:11:24 What were they doing, selling it?

Jason Everman 1:11:26 I (laughs) ... I don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:11:27 (laughs)

Jason Everman 1:11:27 Like-

Joe Rogan 1:11:28 But that's what so strange, is that it seems like, you, you know, e- especially when you have this disconnection from the mainstream media and from, you know, uh, channels of information getting to other people, that this is a part of what's happening over there. That there's... It was... I believe at one point in time it was 90+ percent of the world's heroin-

Jason Everman 1:11:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:52 ... yeah, was coming from Afghanistan.

Jason Everman 1:11:56 Yeah. I mean, I d-... I don't, I don't have an answer.

Joe Rogan 1:11:59 Tsk. F-... Bizarre, though, right?

Jason Everman 1:12:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:01 Did you think how bizarre it was when... Or it was just that was inconsequential, that it was not-

Jason Everman 1:12:05 Yeah, it wasn't like, "Oh, another poppy field." Like, it was just part of the landscape, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:12:09 Hmm.

Jason Everman 1:12:09 But it... Uh, yeah, I probably didn't put much thought into it.

Joe Rogan 1:12:12 How did they cultivate the po-... I mean, they were doing all this in the middle of combat, in the middle of war. Like, how were they handling all that?

Jason Everman 1:12:19 Uh, I mean, the... (sighs) Like, in my experience, the... Like, if we did hit a target that was, like, in a remote place like that, like, they weren't... They weren't seeing coalition forces often, if at all, you know? It's kind of like they probably thought they were in a safe haven.

Joe Rogan 1:12:39 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 1:12:39 So, the... I mean, I think when you get closer to the, the b- built-up areas, and at least at the time... I me-... I mean, like, the whole Afghan government was so corrupt anyway, so I think probably the main people making money were, you know, Afghan generals.

Joe Rogan 1:12:57 Hmm.

Jason Everman 1:12:57 You know? Which I think at one time, the Afghan army had, like, 3,000 general officers or something.

Joe Rogan 1:13:03 Hmm.

Jason Everman 1:13:03 They had, like, this inverted pyramid of leadership. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:13:06 (laughs)

Jason Everman 1:13:06 Like, "Oh, I'm a general." You know? And they all have mansions, and it's all corruption money, and-

Joe Rogan 1:13:10 (sighs)

Jason Everman 1:13:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:12 ... how aware was that, being a part... Like, that's the side that you were on. I mean, you're- you're- you're over there sort of helping.

Jason Everman 1:13:20 Uh, uh, yeah, like... I think you just gotta focus on the tribe, right?

Joe Rogan 1:13:29 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 1:13:29 Like, the... It's like you and your dudes and- and you have this task, and you're gonna accomplish it to the best of your ability and bring everyone back alive. And then, uh, the- the political side of it, I mean, yeah, it'd be easy to get kind of demoralized-

Joe Rogan 1:13:45 Yeah, that's what I'm a-... yeah.

Jason Everman 1:13:47 ... i- if you, if you focus on that.

Joe Rogan 1:13:48 Yeah. Was it bizarre for you as someone who has done heroin to think, like, "Oh, this is where it comes from"?

Jason Everman 1:13:53 Um, I mean, I think I- I was conscious of that, but, like, it didn't... it wasn't that crazy. It's like... (laughs) you know?

Joe Rogan 1:14:04 So even though you knew that there was, uh, rampant corruption and that th- there's a lot of things that were kind of fucked, it was still your tribe, your task.

Jason Everman 1:14:12 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:14:15 Did- did you spend any time pondering, like, whether or not that made sense? Or did you just- just do what you were supposed to do?

Jason Everman 1:14:23 Uh, uh, yeah, I think I reflected on it, and then would just, you know, do it, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:14:28 Did anybody talk about it over there?

Jason Everman 1:14:30 Yeah, I think... Uh, yeah, and I w- I would talk about it too. Like, y- you know, as the war progressed, you would see the- these mansions being built around Kabul and stuff, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:14:40 Hmm.

Jason Everman 1:14:41 These ridiculous, like, concrete mansions, and, like, uh, that's... Our tax dollars are paying for that mansion, you know? Or it's corruption money, or it's- it's opium money, or whatever. And it's just... it's just part of the- the culture there, you know? Like, how do you fix that? It's like... Like, I r- I remember talking to one of our interpreters over there, and like... So I'm- I'm n- not married, don't have a family, and so obviously everything over there is very family oriented or f- f- you know, family, tribe, um, you know, that... It's everything's geared towards, like, blood relations and things like that. And like- like a s- the stronger and larger your family is, the stronger your tribe is, like that whole thing. It's like a different paradigm than- than we have in the... in, you know, the West. And- and so we're talking, we're just bullshitting, and he's asking me about my family, and I'm like, "Oh, I don't..." you know, "I don't have a family, just me." Um, "But," you know, "my- my neighbor has the keys to my house and," you know, "they- they can go in and take care of stuff if I need something taken care of," and all this. And like the first thing he asks is like, "And they do not steal all your things?" (laughs) 'Cause that's what he was thinking.

Joe Rogan 1:16:01 Right.

Jason Everman 1:16:01 Like, "Oh, if I had your keys, I'd be stealing your shit."

Joe Rogan 1:16:04 (laughs) Right.

Jason Everman 1:16:05 And that's the mentality, like, that-

Joe Rogan 1:16:07 Yeah.

Jason Everman 1:16:07 It's just... It's different, you know? The houses down there, each house i- i- f-... each family unit house is a miniature fortress, you know? And it's because it's this culture that, uh, that they habitually prey upon each other.

Joe Rogan 1:16:22 Hmm.

Jason Everman 1:16:23 So the houses need to be these mini fortresses, you know? Where here in the West, you know, like I don't- I don't have a fence around my property. My neighbors have my keys. Like, it's fine, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:16:34 Yeah. How bizarre was that, though, to- to go over there and experience this completely different way of life with other human beings living in another part of the world, the completely different set of values-

Jason Everman 1:16:47 M-

Joe Rogan 1:16:47 ... different goals and expectations, different religion?

Jason Everman 1:16:51 It's... It was fascinating.

Joe Rogan 1:16:53 Yeah.

Jason Everman 1:16:53 Like, just 'cause that part of the world, like Central Asia, is like such a fascinating part of the world, like all the way back to antiquity.

Joe Rogan 1:17:00 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 1:17:01 Um, all the history that's, like, transpired, you know, in that area, uh, like any chance I got to see something, like somewhat historical, like there's still remains of like, uh, uh, Greek ruins from 300 BC.

Joe Rogan 1:17:17 Really?

Jason Everman 1:17:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:17:18 In Afghanistan?

Jason Everman 1:17:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:17:19 Really?

Jason Everman 1:17:20 Oh, yeah. There was a whole... I never got to this town, but up on the Oxus River, the... and it- it's... there's been several attempts over the decades to do an archeological ex- excavation of the entire city. But it's like... it's an no-shit Greek city in Central Asia.

Joe Rogan 1:17:39 Wow.

Jason Everman 1:17:40 So when Alexander of Macedon... when... Mastodon. Mastodon. Ma... When Alexander of Macedon-

Joe Rogan 1:17:47 Alexander the Great.

Jason Everman 1:17:48 Yeah. Was... His campaign in Asia, so he pushed all the way to the Indus River, but what he would do along the way is establish Alexandrias.

Joe Rogan 1:17:59 Ah.

Jason Everman 1:17:59 So you- you know Alexandria in Egypt-

Joe Rogan 1:18:01 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 1:18:01 ... but there's multiple Alexandrias. Like the... uh, the etymology of- of Kandahar, the- the town in Afghanistan is, you know... If you go back, it was Iskandahar, and Iskandahar literally means Alexandria. That was one of the Alexandrias-

Joe Rogan 1:18:17 Wow.

Jason Everman 1:18:18 ... that he established in Central Asia and all- all over y- uh, uh Persia and Asia Minor, and like that was his thing. And so he... And it was a way to kind of maintain a foothold in that part of the world, like build a city, um, establish like a Greek education system to educate the locals in the... in the Greek model. Um, so he was kind of projecting... You know, he- he was in it for the long game, like this is part of Greece, it's going to be Greek.

Joe Rogan 1:18:50 Hmm.

Jason Everman 1:18:51 And it- it... the Greco-Bactrian Empire, if you want to call it that, probably lasted like 100 years, and then it just fell apart.

Joe Rogan 1:19:00 Are there... uh, is there like documentation of the- the Greek cities, the ruins in- in Afghanistan?

Jason Everman 1:19:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:19:07 Ca- Jamie, can you pull some of that up, see if you can find any of that? That's fascinating. I had no idea.

Jason Everman 1:19:11 So the old, um, Alexandria-

Joe Rogan 1:19:14 So there it is. Wow.

Jason Everman 1:19:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:19:17 That's incredible.

Jason Everman 1:19:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:19:19 And so, that's just abandoned now?

Jason Everman 1:19:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:19:22 That's amazing.

Jason Everman 1:19:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:19:24 And this, this is from 300 BC?

Jason Everman 1:19:26 Yeah, around that.

Joe Rogan 1:19:28 Wow. That's amazing, I had no idea. So, at one point in time, that had been some sort of a thriving community?

Jason Everman 1:19:41 Yeah. The, the city on the Oxus, um, the, Ai-Khanoum. See where it says Ai-Khanoum Wikipedia? That was the city on the Oxus.

Joe Rogan 1:19:51 Wow.

Jason Everman 1:19:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:19:53 Wow. So, they had an amphitheater?

Jason Everman 1:19:55 Yeah. It was a full-on Greek city.

Joe Rogan 1:19:58 That's incredible.

Jason Everman 1:19:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:20:01 That is wild. And so, how did they, how did they maintain it, and how did it collapse?

Jason Everman 1:20:10 Uh, I mean, I, I don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:20:13 Look at that. That's intense, man.

Jason Everman 1:20:16 But that's up north in, uh, the Kunduz.

Joe Rogan 1:20:19 What is that statue, Jamie, where it says the history... Yeah. That's a Buddha statue.

Jason Everman 1:20:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:20:22 That's a Buddha statue.

Jason Everman 1:20:24 The Buddha is a Bamiyan. Like, the Taliban blew those up.

Joe Rogan 1:20:27 Oh, right. Fuck. What a bummer.

Jason Everman 1:20:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:20:33 How old were those?

Jason Everman 1:20:36 Um, that I'm not sure. But there, there's... A lot of historians think that, like, like, the Vedas and, and Buddhism kinda started, like, more in the Af- Afghanistan area.

Joe Rogan 1:20:50 Really?

Jason Everman 1:20:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:20:53 No kidding. The Vedas?

Jason Everman 1:20:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:20:55 Wow. Look at the, all this fucking, all these Buddhas.

Jason Everman 1:21:00 Yeah, there's tons of, uh... There, there's some really cool... So, there, there was this really interesting period of history of, of Greco-Buddhism in Central Asia. There was one, um, one of the Greco-Bactrian kings, Menander, actually converted to Buddhism, and there was this brief moment of, um, brief period of Greco-Buddhism in Central Asia. And so, the-

Joe Rogan 1:21:26 Whoa.

Jason Everman 1:21:26 ... the, the Buddhas-

Joe Rogan 1:21:27 Look at that place.

Jason Everman 1:21:28 ... that were, uh, carved, so they're carving statues of the Buddha and stuff, but it's in this total Greco-Roman style, so they're beautiful pieces of art. And it's, it's literally a, a, a Greek Buddha, you know? You, you look at-

Joe Rogan 1:21:42 Hmm.

Jason Everman 1:21:42 You look at it stylistically, and it's like, that's Greek, but it's a Buddha, and it's just, it's cool. Cool, you know, flash in the pan of history, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:21:51 See if you can find any images of that. Are th- are those all gone? The Taliban blow them all up?

Jason Everman 1:21:56 No. The, I mean, these... So, there's actually some at the, at the MET New York that I've seen. Um, I've seen some at the National Museum in Kabul. Um-

Joe Rogan 1:22:10 Look at that.

Jason Everman 1:22:11 So... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:22:15 That's so strange 'cause it's so obviously, like, influenced by Greek art.

Jason Everman 1:22:20 Yeah, the, the, the folds in the robe and all that.

Joe Rogan 1:22:22 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 1:22:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:22:23 Yeah. Wow. Wow.

Jason Everman 1:22:29 It's really, really cool. Really interesting.

Joe Rogan 1:22:33 Human civilization is so bizarre. The rise and fall of these empires and these civilizations, and to, for you to go and, and visit it in the middle of combat must have been particularly bizarre.

Jason Everman 1:22:48 Y- yeah. Like, I would, like, I'd, I would try (laughs) to, I'd try to get in, uh, uh... Do my share of, uh, for lack of a better term, like, tourism. Like, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:22:59 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 1:22:59 ... like, I went to the old citadel outside of Kandahar, where you, right now, you, when you're on the ground, it doesn't look like anything. But if you go to, like, Google Earth, you can see the old outline of the city walls, and you could see the, like, the citadel in the middle. And it's like, it's still there, the remains of it. Um. The, um... Like, up in Nuristan, which is a super interesting part of Afghanistan, it's, it's like the northeast part of the country, and it's a region that wasn't even converted to Islam until the end of the 19th century.

Joe Rogan 1:23:37 Hmm.

Jason Everman 1:23:38 Like, it's, you, you can make the analogy of th- they're like the Basque in Spain, right? It was, like, this mountainous region that kinda was able to retain, like, its cultural and linguistic identity because of the terrain. Like, it was more defendable. So Nuristan was like that as well, and so they were finally forcibly converted to Islam into the 19th century. And before that, they were called Kafiristan, which is like land of the infidel.

Joe Rogan 1:24:05 Mm-hmm.

Jason Everman 1:24:05 And then once they underwent the conversion process, they became Nuristan, which is land of the enlightened.

Joe Rogan 1:24:11 Oh, wow.

Jason Everman 1:24:12 Yeah. But it's, it's such an interesting place. I l- I, I liked it a lot 'cause it reminded me of home where I grew up 'cause you have, like, alpine forest. It, it looks like Yosemite. Like, like, if they could ever have peace there, they could have, like, a trekking industry, um, you know, ecotourism, whatever. Like, white river rafting down the Kunar River. Like, it's just, it's gorgeous. And there, there was places where, in Afghanistan, where I was like, "I could be home on the Olympic Peninsula right now."

Joe Rogan 1:24:45 Wow.

Jason Everman 1:24:45 Like, mountains, alpine forest. Yeah, there, there's the old citadel.

Joe Rogan 1:24:50 That's incredible.

Jason Everman 1:24:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:24:53 I had no idea this stuff was there.

Jason Everman 1:24:55 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:24:56 The history of Afghanistan is so fascinating and so spectacular, and so... Like, the futility of trying to conquer that place and control that place.

Jason Everman 1:25:08 It, it's gonna be what it's gonna be. And it, yeah. Like, uh, you're, you're n- you're, you're n- you're not gonna change it, you know? You're not gonna westernize it. That's not gonna happen.

Joe Rogan 1:25:21 ... did you, like... (sighs) It's so, it's so crazy that we were there for so long.

Jason Everman 1:25:26 T- his- a 20-year war.

Joe Rogan 1:25:28 Would you have ever imagined that while you were there?

Jason Everman 1:25:30 No. No. I- like if you would have told me, um, uh, September 10th, 2001, like, "Oh yeah, we're getting ready to be in a 20-year war in, in the Middle East and Central Asia," I would have been like, "No fucking way. That's, that's just not gonna happen." You know? And then boom.

Joe Rogan 1:25:47 What did it- what was it like to you when we pulled out of it finally?

Jason Everman 1:25:51 Um, on the one hand, it was like a relief. It's like, you know, enough already. It's like we're obviously not fixing that place, you know. Uh, it's doubtful we, we could fix it. Um, I think it would have been clever to hold onto Bagram and maintain a strike force there to, to put out fires so to speak. But other than that, like let it be what it's gonna be, you know? And like protect US interests as needed but, you know, we- we're not gonna change that place.

Joe Rogan 1:26:27 It's so ... it's so crazy that we didn't learn from the Russian invasion. We didn't learn from the Russians battling the Mujahideen-

Jason Everman 1:26:35 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:26:35 ... and which we supported.

Jason Everman 1:26:37 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:26:37 Which is it's so strange that everyone makes the same mistakes.

Jason Everman 1:26:42 Or, or the British-

Joe Rogan 1:26:43 Yeah.

Jason Everman 1:26:43 ... or the, or the Greeks, you know.

Joe Rogan 1:26:44 Yeah.

Jason Everman 1:26:44 It's like the, the, the Greek foothold there lasted, you know, what? 100 years? Like so historically that's nothing.

Joe Rogan 1:26:53 Right.

Jason Everman 1:26:53 You know?

Joe Rogan 1:26:54 Just like is ... there's no place li- like it on earth in that regard just like because of the terrain, because of the, the people and the religion, and the just the, the, the way it's controlled, areas are controlled by warlords.

Jason Everman 1:27:09 Yeah, it's all tribal. It's all ... and that, that's the way they ... politically that's the way they govern themselves and that's just the w- you know. And it's, it's not even an evaluative statement. It's like yeah it's not Western style but okay, you know. What, what are you gonna do, you know? You-

Joe Rogan 1:27:30 Right.

Jason Everman 1:27:30 Uh, they, they gotta at some point as long as they're not impinging upon... It's, it's, it's a I guess I have a very libertarian perspective. Like, you know, if, if they don't fuck with us, we shouldn't fuck with them.

Joe Rogan 1:27:44 Right.

Jason Everman 1:27:44 You know?

Joe Rogan 1:27:45 Y- yeah. That's, um ... (sighs) That's ... Uh, es- is a futility in trying to be the policeman of the world and-

Jason Everman 1:27:53 Oh, it's exhausting.

Joe Rogan 1:27:53 Yeah.

Jason Everman 1:27:54 You know? And, and ultimately you're gonna fail. You know, you're, you're, you're gonna drain all your resources trying to manage something literally on the other side of the planet to what end?

Joe Rogan 1:28:06 Right.

Jason Everman 1:28:06 You know?

Joe Rogan 1:28:07 And then there's these entities that are profiting off of that futile attempt.

Jason Everman 1:28:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:28:14 Which they would like to continue that money flowing in. So they continue this, this thing that everybody knows you're eventually gonna have to stop.

Jason Everman 1:28:23 Yeah, definitely it turned into an industry for sure.

Joe Rogan 1:28:26 And were you aware of that while you were there that that was, that there was no way out of this?

Jason Everman 1:28:33 I mean, uh ... Like ... I don't... I guess I always suspected that it would never be ... like it wasn't gonna be like, "Hey check this out, democracy. It's cool."

Joe Rogan 1:28:48 Mm-hmm. Right.

Jason Everman 1:28:48 You know? Like I pretty much knew that wasn't gonna fly. Um, I think the best I could hope for was just stability, you know.

Joe Rogan 1:28:57 And that didn't happen.

Jason Everman 1:28:58 No.

Joe Rogan 1:28:59 You know there was some really bizarre moments after we pulled out of Afghanistan where they were interviewing the Taliban and talking to them about women being in control or women, you know, being in government and whether or not they were gonna accept sort of this Western idea of diversity and inclusion and they were just fucking laughing.

Jason Everman 1:29:21 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:29:22 Yeah.

Jason Everman 1:29:22 Yeah. It's absurd to them.

Joe Rogan 1:29:24 Yeah.

Jason Everman 1:29:24 You know? Just, just like the other side of the coin it was absurd to us.

Joe Rogan 1:29:28 Yeah.

Jason Everman 1:29:28 You know? So how do you bridge that gap?

Joe Rogan 1:29:31 Especially when you're dealing with the, the history of the place. The, the ... you know. Hundreds of years, hundreds and hundreds of years of living that way.

Jason Everman 1:29:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:29:41 The idea that we're gonna go in there with tanks and fix it.

Jason Everman 1:29:44 Mm-hmm. We're, we're gonna force you to be democratic.

Joe Rogan 1:29:48 Yeah.

Jason Everman 1:29:48 That's like okay that's not gonna happen either.

Joe Rogan 1:29:50 E- and, and also the rampant corruption that exists in the people that are in power.

Jason Everman 1:29:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:29:56 You know when you're talking about all these mansions and the selling of the heroine and it's like what are you gonna do? How are you gonna get those people to straighten out?

Jason Everman 1:30:03 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:30:04 You're not.

Jason Everman 1:30:05 Yeah. It's, it's, it's ingrained. It's, it's, it's cultural. It's maybe even more than cultural, you know.

Joe Rogan 1:30:12 Was there a time when you were over there like towards the end of your time there where you were re- recognizing the futil- futility of this?

Jason Everman 1:30:22 Yeah, I think big pictures yeah. But again you're there to do a job so you can't ... you can't dwell