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Joe Rogan Experience #1968 - Jason Everman

Jason Everman is a musician and military veteran. Prior to his service as a US Army Ranger and Green Beret, Everman was a guitarist in Soundgarden and Nirvana. Learn more about Team Supernautiloid and Race to Alaska 2023 at www.supernautiloid.com.

Joe RoganhostJason Evermanguest
Jun 27, 20242h 35mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:0015:00

    (drum music) Joe Rogan podcast.…

    1. JR

      (drum music) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

    2. NA

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

    3. JR

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) Well, thanks for coming, man. Appreciate it.

    4. JE

      Yeah, thanks for asking.

    5. JR

      You've had a wild life, dude. How the fuck does one go from playing in Nirvana and Soundgarden to being a soldier?

    6. JE

      Um, it's, it's, (laughs) it's a longer story.

    7. JR

      Yeah.

    8. JE

      I don't, I don't know how-

    9. JR

      I wanna hear it. (laughs)

    10. JE

      ... how long an answer you want.

    11. JR

      We got, uh, plenty of time.

    12. JE

      Okay, um ... Mm. So, I guess w- being a professional rock musician was something I kind of fell into. It wasn't something that I, like, uh, had a dream of, you know? It's like, "Oh, I'm gonna be..." You know, I love playing in bands, I love playing music, but it was, like, at this punk rock level where y- you were never gonna make a living at it, you know?

    13. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    14. JE

      It was just something fun to do. And then, uh, started playing with Nirvana, and even at that level s- you know, still not making money from it, but, you know, touring.

    15. JR

      Was it the early days of Nirvana?

    16. JE

      Yeah, yeah.

    17. JR

      So, Nirvana wasn't worldwide-

    18. JE

      No.

    19. JR

      ... at that point?

    20. JE

      No. Um, i- uh, there were c- um, even on the Seattle level, like, one of the, the, the smaller bands, you know? Like, there was bands like Mudhoney and Soundgarden that were better known than Nirvana was at the time, for sure.

    21. JR

      And you played for Soundgarden too.

    22. JE

      Yeah.

    23. JR

      Which is also hilarious. (laughs)

    24. JE

      (laughs) Yeah.

    25. JR

      And when, when did you ... Like, so, you're, in, in the beginning, so did you just have, did you have friction with the band? Like, why did you wind up leaving?

    26. JE

      So, w- uh, with Nirvana, it was just, uh, I guess initially, like, when I came on board, like, Kurt wanted a second guitar player for the live show basically, like, uh, have a heavier sound live, take some of the guitar-playing responsibility off him so he could concentrate on vocals, like that kind of thing. And initially, like, I thought I was gonna be able to contribute to the band creatively, and then it got to the point where I realized that wasn't gonna happen. And then the same thing happened with Chad, the drummer, I think. And it was, like, everyone in the band, including myself, was, like, very p- po- poor communicators, like, a lot of passive aggression.

    27. JR

      Mm.

    28. JE

      And, you know, I mean, w- we were kids, you know?

    29. JR

      How old were you at the time?

    30. JE

      20, I think.

  2. 15:0030:00

    No. …

    1. JE

      complicated and stylistically it wasn't necessarily my jam. I was into heavier stuff and this was kind of more like Soul Asylum, like indie rock, whi- which is great, and the bass parts were really complicated so I kind of had to push myself to learn them and... a- again, like, you know, grew from it as a, as a musician. Um... So did the tour, came back, uh, I started playing with this kind of an industrial band on Earache Records called Old Lady Drivers which was, like, another kind of interesting foray into a genre that, uh, y- like, I was a fan of, like, the grindcore bands for sure, but, like, even this was like- it was kind of beyond that because it was very- it was a lot of, um, synthesizers and drum machines and, and stuff that I really wasn't exposed to before. But they had a record deal with Earache and y- you know who John Zorn is?

    2. JR

      No.

    3. JE

      So he's an American treasure. He's this avant-garde jazz musician, uh, based out of New York, um, d- Google him if you get a chance, but, like, brilliant. Um, k- kind of- he does a l- a lot of stuff, he's really prolific, um, a- definitely a genius, but so Zorn was on board. He, he produced the record and John actually lived in my neighborhood so I'd, like, go to his apartment, he lived, like, two blocks away in Alphabet City, and he had this insane record collection. Like, the whole flat was, like, shelves of vinyl and it was all organized very meticulously, um, plastic sleeves for, for each, uh, jacket. It was- and he wa- he, he was like a student of American music, or music in general, and he- my God, his knowledge, and it was just cool, like, "Oh." So here's this guy, like, very- on a- at least on an- on a kind of underground level, like, very well-known, very well-respected, like, huge in Japan, of course, um...

    4. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    5. JE

      And he, he's just like this nice, kind of normal dude, like, giving me the tour of his record collection, you know, and we're both living in this shitty neighborhood in Manhattan. It was just cool. So that was a good experience. I played, played shows with them, like, played CB's again, um, CBGB's which was-

    6. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JE

      ... you know, the legendary punk club in, uh, New York, which even, even having pl- I played there before but it's just kind of like I would still get excited about it. It's like, "Dude, I'm playing CBGB's," this was like- it was like this mythical place when I was a teenager, you know?

    8. JR

      Yeah.

    9. JE

      And it's like, "Oh, here I am." Um, so did that and- but that was kind of, like, just a side thing for sure, and then I got contacted... So g- going back, between the Skunk tour and the Old Lady Drivers experience, I, I kind of got into playing music again. Like, it, it became fun again which is why I did it in the first place. Like, it, it, it brought me joy, but, you know, there was like a couple of times where it got to the point where the, the joy was, like, fully extracted from the process and it just- it, it wasn't fulfilling anymore, you know?So anyway, I'm back in New York, working in the warehouse, doing my thing, and I get contacted by, um... You ever heard of Uniform Choice?

    10. JR

      No.

    11. JE

      Like a hardcore band from LA from the '80s? Um, I get tat- uh, contacted by Pat Dubar, who was, in the '80s, the singer for Uniform Choice, and that was a band I was familiar with from the punk days and everything. So he, he was in this n- band called Mindfunk, which, first off, like horrible name (laughs) , like get it.

    12. JR

      (laughs)

    13. JE

      We, we can go into that later, but he's... Pat contacts me, and he's like, "Hey," and they, they were signed to Epic Records, had one record out already, and he's like, "Hey, um, we're gonna replace our, one of our guitar players and our drummer." He's like, "Are you interested in trying out?" And I we- honestly, I hadn't heard their record, and I, I gave the first one a listen, and honestly wasn't that excited about it, but it was... It was kind of, like at this point in my life, it's like I kinda knew, like, if I'm gonna give the music thing another go, like this is, this is gonna be it. You know? It's like, do this, and it'll either catch fire or it won't, and if it doesn't, I'll go on to the next chapter, whatever that is, and, um, so I, I kinda... I can't... I don't even think I auditioned for the band. I think they just, "Okay, you're in." So now we're looking for a drummer, so I went and poached, uh, my friend Sean back home in Washington, who played in a band that I was a big fan of, and I was a big fan of Sean' and, like, convinced him to, like, come out to New York and, like, join this band that, you know, he'd never heard of, and I... It took a lot of convincing to get him to do it, but he did it, and so, um, this kind of Mindfunk 2.0 with Sean and I, uh, qu- like one plus side was, like, okay, m- major label, we'll get put on salary, like don't need a day job anymore, right? So, uh, once again, I'm, I'm a professional rock musician, which, not that I care about the title, but it, it was nice not to have the day job. So we get a house in, in, uh, Monmouth County, New Jersey in order to write the next record, so band house, five of us living in this house, um, and it was just r- it was routine, like we'd, we'd get together every day, rehearse, write songs, um, but I was given, um, more or less full creative reign for, for my ideas and stuff, which was fulfilling on that level. Um, the, the band was managed by, by John Zazula. Do you know who he- Johnny Z?

    14. JR

      No.

    15. JE

      So he, he was like the dude who discovered Metallica. That's kinda his claim to fame, and he had a label called Megaforce Records, which... Great '80s movie, by the way, if you've never seen it (laughs) .

    16. JR

      No.

    17. JE

      It's so good (laughs) .

    18. JR

      It's about the band?

    19. JE

      No.

    20. JR

      About-

    21. JE

      E- It's a, it's this horrible yet brilliant action movie from like 1982, I think, but that's a digression. Um, so J- John and Marsha had this management company cr- like Crazed Management. They owned Megaforce Records and that's the label that put out Kill 'Em All and the first pressing of Ride the Lightning, and they did, uh, Mercyful Fate, Melissa. They did, you know, some really good records, um, like the, the first Anthrax records as well, I think. So John managed some, some pretty big bands, like he managed Anthrax, Suicidal Tendencies, uh, uh, Ministry I think, um, like he, he was this kind of, um, known quantity in the music world, or at least in the heavy metal world, hard rock world, whatever you wanna call it. So we had Johnny Z, signed to Epic, um, had the house in Jersey, writing the record, um, like with the, the name Mindfunk, which again is like a dumb name, it kinda turned me off initially, so I suggested, like, making it one word, like contracting it to make it a little less odious (laughs) , so I did that, kinda, kinda changed the, the logo, um, so it's kind of slipping in some aesthetic values that I thought, uh, were better at least than what, what was going on at the time.

    22. JR

      Why'd you hate Mindfunk so much?

    23. JE

      It's just a dumb name, you know?

    24. JR

      (laughs)

    25. JE

      It's like the whole funk thing, it's like uh-

    26. JR

      Right.

    27. JE

      ... what, Chili Peppers, like what? No, it wasn't like that at all.

    28. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    29. JE

      You know? Um, but you know, there's a lot of dumb band names out there, and if, if the band catches fire, it doesn't matter if it's a dumb name. It just gets accepted, so that, it's not that big a deal. Um, so recording, blah, blah, blah, Johnny Z (laughs) , we get to, um, so we get Terry Date, uh, the producer, on board to produce the second record, and he... I knew him, he's from Seattle, so I knew him from Soundgarden and from, uh, like other local bands that he produced, like, like a known quantity in that world. Um, we get... We book out Bearsville Studio up in Woodstock, New York, um, like th- those studio's literally like on this old, you know, Dutch farm, it's like idyllic. So we get, uh, Bearsville booked out for three months, got Terry Date on board, um, it's like a, it's September of '90... Must be September '92, um, w- we pack up the U-Haul, all the gear, uh, drive up to Bearsville to start the next record. So Sean and I are in the barn setting up equipment on this farm to start the pre-production work, like-... I don't know. It was probably a Saturday. Or no, it was a Friday. It w- was definitely a Friday. So, we're, we're setting up the equipment to start pre-production work when Terry gets in, and, uh, I think Pat came down to the barn as we're setting up, and it's this late September, you know, the, the heat has kinda left, like, New York State, so it's p- it's pleasant outside, and it was a beautiful, sunny, uh, farm, (laughs) you know, this old barn we're setting up equipment in. And Pat says, "Hey, uh, we gotta get everyone together. We, like, got some bad news." (laughs) And so, Epic, the label, had dropped the band, like, that day, like, poof, like, like catastrophic, right? Or could have been catastrophic. And just the fact that it was, like, a Friday afternoon, I'm sure it was, like, a Post-It note on some dude at Epic's, like, computer monitor, "Drop Mindfunk."

    30. NA

      Oh.

  3. 30:0045:00

    And what happens next?…

    1. JE

      and that's where it kinda, uh, uh, things got to the point where it's like, "Okay, I gotta do something different for me personally."

    2. NA

      And what happens next?

    3. JE

      So the, we're living in San Francisco, like, that, like, e- even w- the, while we're living in the house in New Jersey, um, during the recording process in Seattle and, and in San Francisco, like, like taking a lot of drugs, like a lotta, hallucinogens mostly.... but, you know, had, had my flirtation with heroin, like first started, um, just smoking it, you know, on, on tinfoil, and then went into IV use. Um, and like I honestly enjoyed it, but it never got its hooks in me. And I got to the point where I was like, "Uh, yeah, I sh- I should probably not continue down this path," and walked away from it.

    4. JR

      That's a big step to go to intravenous.

    5. JE

      Yeah. (laughs) Well, like, I'm, I'm a completist, I guess.

    6. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JE

      It's like I wanna, I don't wanna do it half-

    8. JR

      Yeah.

    9. JE

      ... halfway.

    10. JR

      See what the fuss is all about.

    11. JE

      Yeah, exactly.

    12. JR

      Yeah.

    13. JE

      It's-

    14. JR

      What is the fuss all about?

    15. JE

      Uh, sort of the feeling, uh, what's your experience with opiates?

    16. JR

      Oh, only like while I've been under, like h- having surgery.

    17. JE

      Yeah.

    18. JR

      I do-

    19. JE

      So it's the same.

    20. JR

      Yeah.

    21. JE

      Just that kinda weightless feeling.

    22. JR

      It's very nice.

    23. JE

      Like it's, uh, I guess the, the analogy I can make is just that kinda post-orgasmic bliss-

    24. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    25. JE

      ... where you're weightless and everything feels wonderful, just like that. Y- you know, but induced ar- artificially, I guess. Um, living in San Francisco, so we toured a lot that year, probably half the year was touring like Europe and the States. And then when we were back in San Francisco, it was like, you know, still on salary, you didn't have to work, so just hang out and like, you know, drop acid or, or drink mushroom tea or whatever. And (laughs) as fun as that is, it was like, uh, like long-term, I don't know, you know, if this is gonna be right. And it, you know, the, the record never caught fire. I think it's a solid record. Like when I hear tracks off of it now, you know, I'm kinda like, "Meh, it's not bad. No, it's okay." Um, there's a g- a couple of the songs on that record were basi- basically, uh, nascent Soundgarden songs, you know? They were like riffs or song ideas I had that while playing with Soundgarden, like Chris would hear me playing it, like noodling around, and he'd be like, "Oh, remember that," you know? And so I had a couple ideas that i- i- in a, in a, in a different life would've been on the next Soundgarden record, conceivably. So there's a couple of those songs on there, uh, and not a bad record. And w- we did, um, played like a bunch of the big festivals in Europe, like we, we did pretty much everything but make a bunch of money, you know? Which is, again, most bands, you know, most bands don't catch fire.

    26. JR

      So what happened? (laughs)

    27. JE

      So dur- during this period, 1993, um, I s- I started, I guess, crafting the next, the next chapter, right? For me. And I'd always been really intrigued by the military. Um, my grandfather, both my grandfathers, were World War II vets. Um, so my maternal grandfather was a tank commander in World War II, and he was kinda my introduction to, like, m- military stuff, you know? And I'm, I'm a little kid, so I'm intrigued by it, like, you know, "Oh, tank commander, that's cool." Like, he, on D-Day, he was an E4 corporal, like gunner, on a Sherman tank. On VE Day, his unit had made it all the way to Vienna, and he was a company commander, and it was just survival, like attrition. Like, uh, you know, I'm sure he was a fine soldier, but it was just attrition, that he went from corporal to captain in, you know, a year or whatever. Um, my grandmother's second husband, um, was a, a corpsman in the Navy, so his story's super funny. Like he grew up in this small town on the Columbia River in Washington State, so his... I think there was like 20 dudes in his graduating class in high school, and so they graduated June 1942. So right after graduation, like 201, like every, every male in his class went to the recruiter and enlisted. And so he went in the Navy, um, his Navy MOS was like, uh, a pharmacist mate or something like that, so he's like, "Oh, I'll be on the ship like working in the dispensary or whatever." Like, wrong, like he graduates, like they give him a helmet and attach him to a Marine platoon, infantry platoon, and like, "You're the medic." And so he did like seven amphibious assaults in the Pacific, like (laughs) like crazy stuff, right?

    28. JR

      Wow.

    29. JE

      Yeah. Like it was super hard, and he had amazing stories, you know? Um, and then my, my father's father was in the Coast Guard, and he did, um, a lot of coastal patrolling, um, Oregon coast, Washington coast, Columbia River, during the war, um, just, you know, looking for Japanese subs or whatever.

    30. JR

      And so you... because you had this sort of wanderlust that made you wanna go trek in the Himalayas and-

  4. 45:001:00:00

    (laughs) …

    1. JR

      and all this stuff-

    2. JE

      (laughs)

    3. JR

      ... and then all of a sudden, you know, you're involved in something that's very physically grueling.

    4. JE

      But I, I did, I did prep. Like I got a, a YMCA membership, and I was swimming at the Y. I was running. I was, uh, I ... Even though I was kinda going into it somewhat blind, I didn't know- I knew that, like I can't just show up, like and not have any kind of fitness level, you know?

    5. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    6. JE

      So I, I did do some prep work, and I, I think it served me well.

    7. JR

      Was that the first time you had done physical stuff like that in your life?

    8. JE

      No. I mean, I w- I was never ... Eh, I played soccer when I was a kid. Um, like the s- soccer was like the, the one sport that wasn't ... didn't have that jock culture, you know?

    9. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    10. JE

      So that's kinda what I gravitated towards, so uh ... And, you know, I did a lot of physical outside stuff like my whole life, you know. I, I worked in Alaska on a fishing boat, like, um, there was nothing ... It wasn't foreign, you know, like ph- physical exertion.

    11. JR

      And so what happens then?

    12. JE

      Uh, go to selection, uh, at the time it was called RIP, like the, the Ranger Indoctrination Program. Uh, now they call it RASP, like the Ranger Assessment and Selection Program, something like that. Um, and I think it's a week longer now. But like, like RIP is when th- things got physically challenging, for sure. It was basically, you just get abused for three weeks basically. You know, they try to make you quit. And so like th- the runs, like we'd do these like non-standard runs in RIP that was ... It pushed, pushed me to my limits, like I was always kinda at the back of the pack, um, like I was still with the main body, so I was, I was keeping up. I was meeting the standard, but like right behind me were like all the dudes who were like getting put on the truck, like "You're done." You know?

    13. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    14. JE

      So I was like, you look at that and like (laughs) dig a little deeper, and like keep going, you know? Um, but yeah, got, got selected, um, and went to 2nd Ranger Battalion.

    15. JR

      And, uh, did you immediately get deployed? Like what, what year are we talking about here?

    16. JE

      This was '93. No, '94.

    17. JR

      Okay.

    18. JE

      Yeah.

    19. JR

      So this post-Desert Storm.

    20. JE

      Yeah.

    21. JR

      Wh- what was the environment like?

    22. JE

      Um, so it was like, it was, uh, Clinton era military, um, peacetime military, so like, uh, everything was geared towards training, right? Like there was a few dudes in, in my company who were like Panama vets, and so that was like nine- 1989, I think. Just cause. So there was some of those dudes hanging out, and I could tell they were just waiting for the next, like real world op. That's all they were doing. They were biding time. And like, uh, now I get it, uh, and I, I think even then I kinda got it, but, um, for the, just training-

    23. JR

      What do you mean by get it?

    24. JE

      Like, you know, that's ... You, you wanna do it for real.

    25. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    26. JE

      You, you still wanna train all the time.

    27. JR

      Right.

    28. JE

      So, yeah, it was just a lotta, a lot of training. Um, there was deployments, but it was just all training deployments. Um, yeah. You know, went to, went to ranger school, I got my ranger tab.

    29. JR

      And what happens after that?

    30. JE

      (laughs) Uh, I finished my enlistment. It was like a four-year enlistment, I think, and then I, I got out, 'cause it was like ... Uh, in a way I kinda thought like I achieved what I aimed to achieve by going in the military, and there definitely, you know, wasn't a, a war on the horizon, at least one that no one, that anyone could see.Um, so I had a break in service for a couple years, and I, I kinda fucked off. Um, ended up going, uh, to community college, which is, like, another kinda funny story. (laughs)

  5. 1:00:001:15:00

    Mm-hmm. …

    1. JE

      like, uh, evolutionarily, like, okay, w- we're, we're the monkeys with the big brains, right?

    2. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JE

      And we've created this very technologically, um, advanced, if not challenging, environment now that we live in. But the way... Our, our firmware up here, we're still hominids on the savanna, you know? Like, 100%. And so it... I think through, through war, through combat, we kinda tap into that primal, "Okay, this is what we're supposed to do." You know? And-

    4. JR

      Was that surprising to have that part of your mind sort of ignited in a, in a sense where you realize that, like, this is, like, something that's deeply embedded in your DNA?

    5. JE

      Y- yeah. I mean, uh, I'm, I, I know I'm making that claim, but it's, it's, it's, it's not based on, like, scientific research I've done. It's just kind of an i- intuition.

    6. JR

      Well, many, many make that claim.

    7. JE

      Yeah.

    8. JR

      It's, it's not a uncommon thought.

    9. JE

      Yeah. So it, it, it rings true to me, and, like, uh, have you read like a...... that Se- Sebastian Junger book-

    10. JR

      Yes.

    11. JE

      ... Tribe.

    12. JR

      Yeah. Great book.

    13. JE

      So, yeah. I, and like his thesis, like that's the first kinda PTSD thesis I read that kinda rang true with me, 'cause like before that the popular conception was, you know, the- these young men and women go off to war and see horrible things and come back fucked up. But like his thesis, where they- they lose that- lose that tribe, right, that task and purpose, uh, u- unity of effort, you know, literally we're- we're- we're tribal creatures.

    14. JR

      Yeah.

    15. JE

      Like that's- that's what we... That's how we operate. Like I- I- I did a paper when I was doing my undergrad, um, I think I was trying to investigate like, uh, genetic impetus for like human conflict or whatever, and like some... One of the, during my research one of the things I found that was super interesting to me was the way psychologically we're equipped to deal with about 100 to 120 individuals, like that- that- that would be our extended tribe, our social group.

    16. JR

      Dunbar's number.

    17. JE

      Is that what it is?

    18. JR

      Yeah.

    19. JE

      Okay.

    20. JR

      Yeah, it's, um, this, th- this group of people that you can contain in your mind.

    21. JE

      Yeah.

    22. JR

      And there, and it, it's segmented. There's like a- a small number p- of people you're intimately attached to. There's a- a- a larger number that are close but more like associates and friends-

    23. JE

      Mm-hmm.

    24. JR

      ... and then there's people that you know, and it extends out. It actually extends even further than 120 or 150. It gets to like people you are aware of.

    25. JE

      Yeah.

    26. JR

      But it's- it's fairly small, which is one of the weird things about knowing a lot of people.

    27. JE

      Yeah.

    28. JR

      Is that n- that number gets really weird, and then your- your memory of people, it's almost like your brain deletes them 'cause there's no room.

    29. JE

      Like i- but then it, like how well do you know them as well?

    30. JR

      Right, right.

  6. 1:15:001:30:00

    Right. …

    1. JE

      r- I remember talking to one of our interpreters over there, and like... So I'm- I'm n- not married, don't have a family, and so obviously everything over there is very family oriented or f- f- you know, family, tribe, um, you know, that... It's everything's geared towards, like, blood relations and things like that. And like- like a s- the stronger and larger your family is, the stronger your tribe is, like that whole thing. It's like a different paradigm than- than we have in the... in, you know, the West. And- and so we're talking, we're just bullshitting, and he's asking me about my family, and I'm like, "Oh, I don't..." you know, "I don't have a family, just me." Um, "But," you know, "my- my neighbor has the keys to my house and," you know, "they- they can go in and take care of stuff if I need something taken care of," and all this. And like the first thing he asks is like, "And they do not steal all your things?" (laughs) 'Cause that's what he was thinking.

    2. JR

      Right.

    3. JE

      Like, "Oh, if I had your keys, I'd be stealing your shit."

    4. JR

      (laughs) Right.

    5. JE

      And that's the mentality, like, that-

    6. JR

      Yeah.

    7. JE

      It's just... It's different, you know? The houses down there, each house i- i- f-... each family unit house is a miniature fortress, you know? And it's because it's this culture that, uh, that they habitually prey upon each other.

    8. JR

      Hmm.

    9. JE

      So the houses need to be these mini fortresses, you know? Where here in the West, you know, like I don't- I don't have a fence around my property. My neighbors have my keys. Like, it's fine, you know?

    10. JR

      Yeah. How bizarre was that, though, to- to go over there and experience this completely different way of life with other human beings living in another part of the world, the completely different set of values-

    11. JE

      M-

    12. JR

      ... different goals and expectations, different religion?

    13. JE

      It's... It was fascinating.

    14. JR

      Yeah.

    15. JE

      Like, just 'cause that part of the world, like Central Asia, is like such a fascinating part of the world, like all the way back to antiquity.

    16. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    17. JE

      Um, all the history that's, like, transpired, you know, in that area, uh, like any chance I got to see something, like somewhat historical, like there's still remains of like, uh, uh, Greek ruins from 300 BC.

    18. JR

      Really?

    19. JE

      Yeah.

    20. JR

      In Afghanistan?

    21. JE

      Yeah.

    22. JR

      Really?

    23. JE

      Oh, yeah. There was a whole... I never got to this town, but up on the Oxus River, the... and it- it's... there's been several attempts over the decades to do an archeological ex- excavation of the entire city. But it's like... it's an no-shit Greek city in Central Asia.

    24. JR

      Wow.

    25. JE

      So when Alexander of Macedon... when... Mastodon. Mastodon. Ma... When Alexander of Macedon-

    26. JR

      Alexander the Great.

    27. JE

      Yeah. Was... His campaign in Asia, so he pushed all the way to the Indus River, but what he would do along the way is establish Alexandrias.

    28. JR

      Ah.

    29. JE

      So you- you know Alexandria in Egypt-

    30. JR

      Mm-hmm.

  7. 1:30:001:30:32

    Mm-hmm. …

    1. JR

      and it's like what are you gonna do? How are you gonna get those people to straighten out?

    2. JE

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JR

      You're not.

    4. JE

      Yeah. It's, it's, it's ingrained. It's, it's, it's cultural. It's maybe even more than cultural, you know.

    5. JR

      Was there a time when you were over there like towards the end of your time there where you were re- recognizing the futil- futility of this?

    6. JE

      Yeah, I think big pictures yeah. But again you're there to do a job so you can't ... you can't dwell on the negative you know.

Episode duration: 2:35:47

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