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The Joe Rogan ExperienceThe Joe Rogan Experience

Joe Rogan Experience #1968 - Jason Everman

Jason Everman is a musician and military veteran. Prior to his service as a US Army Ranger and Green Beret, Everman was a guitarist in Soundgarden and Nirvana. Learn more about Team Supernautiloid and Race to Alaska 2023 at www.supernautiloid.com.

Joe RoganhostJason Evermanguest
Jun 27, 20242h 35mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:37

    From punk gigs to early Nirvana: joining as the second guitarist

    1. JR

      (drum music) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

    2. NA

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

    3. JR

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) Well, thanks for coming, man. Appreciate it.

    4. JE

      Yeah, thanks for asking.

    5. JR

      You've had a wild life, dude. How the fuck does one go from playing in Nirvana and Soundgarden to being a soldier?

    6. JE

      Um, it's, it's, (laughs) it's a longer story.

    7. JR

      Yeah.

    8. JE

      I don't, I don't know how-

    9. JR

      I wanna hear it. (laughs)

    10. JE

      ... how long an answer you want.

    11. JR

      We got, uh, plenty of time.

    12. JE

      Okay, um ... Mm. So, I guess w- being a professional rock musician was something I kind of fell into. It wasn't something that I, like, uh, had a dream of, you know? It's like, "Oh, I'm gonna be..." You know, I love playing in bands, I love playing music, but it was, like, at this punk rock level where y- you were never gonna make a living at it, you know?

    13. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    14. JE

      It was just something fun to do. And then, uh, started playing with Nirvana, and even at that level s- you know, still not making money from it, but, you know, touring.

    15. JR

      Was it the early days of Nirvana?

    16. JE

      Yeah, yeah.

    17. JR

      So, Nirvana wasn't worldwide-

    18. JE

      No.

    19. JR

      ... at that point?

    20. JE

      No. Um, i- uh, there were c- um, even on the Seattle level, like, one of the, the, the smaller bands, you know? Like, there was bands like Mudhoney and Soundgarden that were better known than Nirvana was at the time, for sure.

    21. JR

      And you played for Soundgarden too.

    22. JE

      Yeah.

    23. JR

      Which is also hilarious. (laughs)

    24. JE

      (laughs) Yeah.

  2. 1:37 – 3:34

    Why Nirvana didn’t work out: creativity, communication, and leaving the tour

    1. JR

      And when, when did you ... Like, so, you're, in, in the beginning, so did you just have, did you have friction with the band? Like, why did you wind up leaving?

    2. JE

      So, w- uh, with Nirvana, it was just, uh, I guess initially, like, when I came on board, like, Kurt wanted a second guitar player for the live show basically, like, uh, have a heavier sound live, take some of the guitar-playing responsibility off him so he could concentrate on vocals, like that kind of thing. And initially, like, I thought I was gonna be able to contribute to the band creatively, and then it got to the point where I realized that wasn't gonna happen. And then the same thing happened with Chad, the drummer, I think. And it was, like, everyone in the band, including myself, was, like, very p- po- poor communicators, like, a lot of passive aggression.

    3. JR

      Mm.

    4. JE

      And, you know, I mean, w- we were kids, you know?

    5. JR

      How old were you at the time?

    6. JE

      20, I think.

    7. JR

      Mm.

    8. JE

      And, yeah, I d- I just, I wasn't equipped for it, and eh- became more and more unhappy with the situation and then ended up leaving.

    9. JR

      So, was it that, like, when you would try to, uh, put creative input in, it would get shut down or they weren't interested or Kurt wasn't interested?

    10. JE

      Yeah, so, (sighs) like, on the rare time where we actually rehearse as a band, which was not a lot, um, K- Kurt would kind of half-heartedly, like, "Hey, who, who has ideas?" And, like, I'd throw a couple ideas out. And then Chad, l- like, a very accomplished musician in his own right, would throw some ideas out. And then it'd just kind of be glossed over and, like, "Okay, here's the new song I wrote," you know, and start learning that.

    11. JR

      Mm.

    12. JE

      So, it was very, uh-

    13. JR

      Egocentric.

    14. JE

      ... c- uh, cursory, you know? It was like-

    15. JR

      Yeah.

    16. JE

      ... he, he kind of, like, threw it out there, but then it wasn't-

    17. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    18. JE

      ... gonna go anywhere.

  3. 3:34 – 5:35

    Soundgarden audition to getting fired: heartbreak and identity shock

    1. JR

      Mm. And so, um, did you, so you went for Nirvana first and then to Soundgarden?

    2. JE

      Yeah, like, I left, we did a US tour, like, the first full US tour that Nirvana did in '88 or '89. I can't remember what year it was, but I think it was still the '80s. And, like, I, I left at the end of that tour. Like, "Okay, I'm, I'm done." Like, nice little four-way, foray into, into rock and roll, but I'm gonna do something else. And when I got home, um, I was planning on going trekking in the Himalayas. Like ...

    3. JR

      Really?

    4. JE

      Yeah, that was the next, that was the next thing. It's like, "Okay, this was a nice diversion, but, uh, I'm gonna kind of fulfill this dream I've had since I was a kid of, like, trekking in the Himalayas." So I, like, I went to Metzger's Maps in Seattle and was buying maps of the Himalaya, of Nepal and Tibet and all this stuff, and, like, getting gear sorted, and that's what I was gonna do. And then at some point that summer or f- fall, I can't remember what time of year it was, into summer, um, Kim from Soundgarden called me and, uh, was like, "Hey, h- hero," their, their bass player then, like, "quit. Do you wanna audition for the band?" And I was like ... You know, at that point, like, Soundgarden was my favorite Seattle band, like, hands down, and it was like, "O- okay." (laughs) You know, fully not believing I'd ever get chosen.

    5. JR

      And then you did.

    6. JE

      Yeah.

    7. JR

      And how did that end?

    8. JE

      Uh, I got fired.

    9. JR

      What happened?

    10. JE

      Um, it's complicated, but I think at the end of the day, um, I, I wasn't getting along with Chris that well, the singer. And, you know, obviously, you know, who's gonna go?

    11. JR

      Right, of course.

    12. JE

      Yeah, it was, it was me. (laughs)

    13. JR

      (laughs) Yeah. So, how does that translate into becoming a soldier?

  4. 5:35 – 9:35

    Escaping to New York and confronting “your demons follow you”

    1. JE

      Uh, I mean, there's more, there's, there's more to the story than that, 'cause there was still, like ... I basically, like, getting fired from Soundgarden, like, put me in a pretty bad tailspin. Um, it, I mean, it wa- it was a, a rough patch in my life, for sure. And so, in order to kind of, uh ...... cut this tailspin off, like I've, I had to do something radical, and what I did was ended up moving to New York. And so, (sighs) I mean, there's more to the story than that. Um, (smacks lips) I moved to New York, like basically, you know, um, I grew up in rural western Washington, like, so it was kind of polar opposite to what I, what my experience was, like got a job in a warehouse, got an apartment, and k- kind of started my, my New York life, and did that for a couple of years.

    2. JR

      What was your plan when you moved to New York? Did you just wanted to try it-

    3. JE

      Hmm.

    4. JR

      ... and experience life in the city?

    5. JE

      I think the main plan was, like, the, like, get out of this funk that I was in.

    6. JR

      Uh-huh.

    7. JE

      You know? And-

    8. JR

      How old were you at the time?

    9. JE

      T- tw- 21, 22 maybe?

    10. JR

      So just young guy-

    11. JE

      Yeah.

    12. JR

      ... trying to figure out life.

    13. JE

      Yeah. I mean, like, the Soundgarden thing, (laughs) like getting fired from Soundgarden, like it broke my heart. It was, it was a bad spot for me, and, uh, 'cause I loved that band, and it wasn't-

    14. JR

      Hmm.

    15. JE

      It wasn't about, you know, I never thought they would get as, as big as they did. Uh, honestly, it kind of surprised me when they did because, yeah, they're a great band, but I think, I always thought they were a little too quirky to be huge despite, you know, the Chris factor, like, you know, this genetically engineered rock star, you know?

    16. JR

      (laughs)

    17. JE

      Um, but I always thought they were a little, a little too weird to be, have like mainstream success, which was fine with me. I thought they'd be like, like a big indie band like Sonic Youth or Butthole Surfers, like that level, you know?

    18. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    19. JE

      And, um, but it was more like I, I just loved that band, and I loved playing with them. And, like, having that taken away, yeah, it really, it fucked me up for a bit.

    20. JR

      Hmm. So you just went to New York City to try to s- experience a different life?

    21. JE

      Um, uh, just, uh, (laughs) r- running from my demons, you know, like that-

    22. JR

      (clears throat)

    23. JE

      ... old rubric.

    24. JR

      Yeah.

    25. JE

      But, you know, your, your demons tend to follow you.

    26. JR

      Always.

    27. JE

      So, yeah.

    28. JR

      What were your demons?

    29. JE

      Um, uh, (sighs) you wanna go down that rabbit hole?

    30. JR

      Sure.

  5. 9:35 – 10:39

    Trauma as growth engine: punctuated equilibrium and life authorship

    1. JR

      But through that suck, a lot of times that's where you sort of get your drive, unfortunately.

    2. JE

      Oh, oh, I'm a firm believer that, that growth is the result of trauma.

    3. JR

      Hmm.

    4. JE

      Like, you need that, that thesis, antithesis, synthesis, you know?

    5. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    6. JE

      That, that, that, like Stephen Jay Gould called it, uh, (smacks lips) pertaining to evolution, uh, punctuated equilibrium, where, like, evolution tends to stay stable if there's no pressures, and, but as soon as there's this introduction of new pressures, usually the result of some cataclysmic event, it's not a gradual thing, it's usually sudden and extreme, and that's where these new evolutionary pressures are introduced, and it's like... uh, on this level of species, you adapt and survive or you die off. So I, I kind of like putting that template o- on the individual. Like, you kind of cruise through life, and then something fucked up happens, and then, you know, hopefully you step up and grow from it, you know, learn from it, all that stuff.

  6. 10:39 – 20:21

    New York music reboot: Skunk tour, avant-garde scenes, and Mindfunk offer

    1. JR

      So you go to New York City. You were there for a few years. What were you doing while you were there?

    2. JE

      So initially, I worked in a warehouse, and it was, it was fine, you know? It's like paying my rent, living in Alphabet City, like having, having (laughs) this urban life that I never thought I would have had otherwise.

    3. JR

      Did you know anybody there?

    4. JE

      Yeah, I had friends there from touring and stuff, and so that was kind of my, my foothold for moving there. Um, like, didn't, didn't play music. Like, I brought some equipment over. Like, initially I went over, um, with like a, a backpack and that was it. And I had a f- friend of mine's band who were on tour pick me up at JFK and drive me into the city. Uh, is... I still remember this. Like, the day before, like, I was doing different kind of, uh, work to save money for the move, so the, (laughs) the day before I flew to New York, I was, like, bucking bales of hay in like a hay field, like f- farm stuff, right? And my buddy Spike, who I'm still good friends with, uh, played in this band called Mind Over Four, they picked me up at JFK, and I remember sitting in the van and looking at my, my Converse, and, like, I still had, like, straw stuck in the Converse-

    5. JR

      (laughs)

    6. JE

      ... from baling hay the day before, and it was like, "Okay, this is... here we go."

    7. JR

      That's an adventure.

    8. JE

      Yeah.

    9. JR

      Wow. And so you're there for a few years living that life.

    10. JE

      Mm-hmm.

    11. JR

      And how do you transition out of that?

    12. JE

      So, l-I went back to Seattle at some point during the first year in New York to ship more of my personal belongings over, and I actually- I, I went to Sub Pop because they had- they had UPS shipping there, and I'm, like, boxing up my stuff in the Sub Pop offices and, like, getting ready to ship it to New York, like, including, like, a, a Marshall cabinet, like, some music gear, but, uh, I had this vague notion of, "Eh, maybe I'll play there," but honestly I probably didn't touch a bass or a guitar for, like, the first year after getting fired from Soundgarden. It just- it still kind of had a bad taste in my mouth.

    13. JR

      Hmm.

    14. JE

      (sighs) But what changed that was summer of '91 maybe, um, I was friends with this band called Skunk. Um, they were this indie rock band on Twin/Tone Records, um... There were three Matts, uh, Matt Sweeney, Matt Quigley, and Matt Coleman. So Matt Quigley, the bass player, uh, quit right before a European tour that they had booked supporting Babes in Toyland, um, another amazing band. And so I get a call from Matt Sweeney and he's like, "Hey, dude, like, Quigley quit. We got this tour coming up. Do you, do you want to fill in on, on bass for this tour?" So I'm like, "Uh, I could, I could work in this warehouse in New York, like, in the sweltering, you know, New York summer heat, or I could, you know, go to Europe for eight weeks or whatever and, and tour." So I'm like, "Yeah, okay, I'll do it." So learned the songs and, uh, did that tour and, and to this day it was the funnest tour I'd ever done, and I think that was because I really had nothing emotionally invested in the band. Like, I, I liked the music, I liked the dudes, but, um, it was just- all I had to do was go out and play, uh, to the best of my ability and, yeah, it was just fun. There w- there was no, no, no burden, no heaviness to it, you know?

    15. JR

      Like, being a part of Soundgarden-

    16. JE

      Yes.

    17. JR

      ... this immense band, you know?

    18. JE

      Yeah, that I was emotionally invested in.

    19. JR

      Yeah.

    20. JE

      You know?

    21. JR

      And so how do you go from that to- (laughs)

    22. JE

      (laughs) There's more to the story.

    23. JR

      Keep going.

    24. JE

      Okay. So, uh, did the s- European tour with Skunk and it honestly is- (sighs) I think to this day the best bass performances I ever did. You know, the- I got some board recordings from that tour that once in a while I'll listen to and go, "Yeah," you know? "It's not bad."

    25. JR

      Do you think it's because you were free, because you w- you didn't have pressure and burden?

    26. JE

      I think that was a, a component (clears throat) for sure, but also, um, the songs were a bit more complicated and stylistically it wasn't necessarily my jam. I was into heavier stuff and this was kind of more like Soul Asylum, like indie rock, whi- which is great, and the bass parts were really complicated so I kind of had to push myself to learn them and... a- again, like, you know, grew from it as a, as a musician. Um... So did the tour, came back, uh, I started playing with this kind of an industrial band on Earache Records called Old Lady Drivers which was, like, another kind of interesting foray into a genre that, uh, y- like, I was a fan of, like, the grindcore bands for sure, but, like, even this was like- it was kind of beyond that because it was very- it was a lot of, um, synthesizers and drum machines and, and stuff that I really wasn't exposed to before. But they had a record deal with Earache and y- you know who John Zorn is?

    27. JR

      No.

    28. JE

      So he's an American treasure. He's this avant-garde jazz musician, uh, based out of New York, um, d- Google him if you get a chance, but, like, brilliant. Um, k- kind of- he does a l- a lot of stuff, he's really prolific, um, a- definitely a genius, but so Zorn was on board. He, he produced the record and John actually lived in my neighborhood so I'd, like, go to his apartment, he lived, like, two blocks away in Alphabet City, and he had this insane record collection. Like, the whole flat was, like, shelves of vinyl and it was all organized very meticulously, um, plastic sleeves for, for each, uh, jacket. It was- and he wa- he, he was like a student of American music, or music in general, and he- my God, his knowledge, and it was just cool, like, "Oh." So here's this guy, like, very- on a- at least on an- on a kind of underground level, like, very well-known, very well-respected, like, huge in Japan, of course, um...

    29. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    30. JE

      And he, he's just like this nice, kind of normal dude, like, giving me the tour of his record collection, you know, and we're both living in this shitty neighborhood in Manhattan. It was just cool. So that was a good experience. I played, played shows with them, like, played CB's again, um, CBGB's which was-

  7. 20:21 – 30:13

    Major-label whiplash: Epic drops Mindfunk mid-session, survival mode follows

    1. JE

      uh, qu- like one plus side was, like, okay, m- major label, we'll get put on salary, like don't need a day job anymore, right? So, uh, once again, I'm, I'm a professional rock musician, which, not that I care about the title, but it, it was nice not to have the day job. So we get a house in, in, uh, Monmouth County, New Jersey in order to write the next record, so band house, five of us living in this house, um, and it was just r- it was routine, like we'd, we'd get together every day, rehearse, write songs, um, but I was given, um, more or less full creative reign for, for my ideas and stuff, which was fulfilling on that level. Um, the, the band was managed by, by John Zazula. Do you know who he- Johnny Z?

    2. JR

      No.

    3. JE

      So he, he was like the dude who discovered Metallica. That's kinda his claim to fame, and he had a label called Megaforce Records, which... Great '80s movie, by the way, if you've never seen it (laughs) .

    4. JR

      No.

    5. JE

      It's so good (laughs) .

    6. JR

      It's about the band?

    7. JE

      No.

    8. JR

      About-

    9. JE

      E- It's a, it's this horrible yet brilliant action movie from like 1982, I think, but that's a digression. Um, so J- John and Marsha had this management company cr- like Crazed Management. They owned Megaforce Records and that's the label that put out Kill 'Em All and the first pressing of Ride the Lightning, and they did, uh, Mercyful Fate, Melissa. They did, you know, some really good records, um, like the, the first Anthrax records as well, I think. So John managed some, some pretty big bands, like he managed Anthrax, Suicidal Tendencies, uh, uh, Ministry I think, um, like he, he was this kind of, um, known quantity in the music world, or at least in the heavy metal world, hard rock world, whatever you wanna call it. So we had Johnny Z, signed to Epic, um, had the house in Jersey, writing the record, um, like with the, the name Mindfunk, which again is like a dumb name, it kinda turned me off initially, so I suggested, like, making it one word, like contracting it to make it a little less odious (laughs) , so I did that, kinda, kinda changed the, the logo, um, so it's kind of slipping in some aesthetic values that I thought, uh, were better at least than what, what was going on at the time.

    10. JR

      Why'd you hate Mindfunk so much?

    11. JE

      It's just a dumb name, you know?

    12. JR

      (laughs)

    13. JE

      It's like the whole funk thing, it's like uh-

    14. JR

      Right.

    15. JE

      ... what, Chili Peppers, like what? No, it wasn't like that at all.

    16. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    17. JE

      You know? Um, but you know, there's a lot of dumb band names out there, and if, if the band catches fire, it doesn't matter if it's a dumb name. It just gets accepted, so that, it's not that big a deal. Um, so recording, blah, blah, blah, Johnny Z (laughs) , we get to, um, so we get Terry Date, uh, the producer, on board to produce the second record, and he... I knew him, he's from Seattle, so I knew him from Soundgarden and from, uh, like other local bands that he produced, like, like a known quantity in that world. Um, we get... We book out Bearsville Studio up in Woodstock, New York, um, like th- those studio's literally like on this old, you know, Dutch farm, it's like idyllic. So we get, uh, Bearsville booked out for three months, got Terry Date on board, um, it's like a, it's September of '90... Must be September '92, um, w- we pack up the U-Haul, all the gear, uh, drive up to Bearsville to start the next record. So Sean and I are in the barn setting up equipment on this farm to start the pre-production work, like-... I don't know. It was probably a Saturday. Or no, it was a Friday. It w- was definitely a Friday. So, we're, we're setting up the equipment to start pre-production work when Terry gets in, and, uh, I think Pat came down to the barn as we're setting up, and it's this late September, you know, the, the heat has kinda left, like, New York State, so it's p- it's pleasant outside, and it was a beautiful, sunny, uh, farm, (laughs) you know, this old barn we're setting up equipment in. And Pat says, "Hey, uh, we gotta get everyone together. We, like, got some bad news." (laughs) And so, Epic, the label, had dropped the band, like, that day, like, poof, like, like catastrophic, right? Or could have been catastrophic. And just the fact that it was, like, a Friday afternoon, I'm sure it was, like, a Post-It note on some dude at Epic's, like, computer monitor, "Drop Mindfunk."

    18. NA

      Oh.

    19. JE

      You know? (laughs) It's like, "Oh, shit, I gotta do that." So, it's like, uh, fuck, you know. It's like, uh, a $300,000 recording budget, um, Terry Date, his producer, uh, like, ev- the band's literally homeless, like, we're gonna live at the studio, but it's like, "Okay, what now?" So, the dude who managed Bearsville, and I can't remember his name, he's this British guy, uh, super sweet, and he's like, he saw we were in a tight spot, and he's like, it, you know, and he's out, like, a huge lump of money, right? 'Cause they, that studio was booked out for three months. That's like a huge, you know, quarter million dollars probably. Um, he's like, "You guys can stay here and sort out what you gotta sort out," kind of thing. So, um, I remember Pat and I were living in one of the cottages on the property, it was like this very quaint little farmhouse, and like, we're, you know, at least, I won't speak for everyone, but I was in a daze. I was like, um, "Fuck." You know, I was like, already, like, lining up getting my warehouse job back, like all this stuff. And so, I remember just, like, staying in this house, uh, sleeping on this antique leather sofa, and I had my cat with me. So, it was me and my cat, watching bad daytime TV. I think I lived on, like, Cheerios and, like, soda, like s- just nasty, right? Just 'cause I was too lazy to go, go to a restaurant or buy food to cook or, it was just like, it's easy, f- bowl of cereal and some soda. Like, this just sounds so gross now, and that, even then, like, that's not how I normally ate, but (laughs) during that period, that's what I was eating. So, I was watching bad daytime television, um, and I remember there was this, um, wall hanging in the room, in the living room, and it was this macrame, like, koala bear, (laughs) you know? Be- kind- kind of tacky, and, uh, I kind of started obsessing on this macrame koala bear to the point where it's like, "If, if I ever have a daughter, I'm gonna name her Koala Macrame."

    20. NA

      (laughs)

    21. JE

      You know, again, dumb-

    22. NA

      Oh, no.

    23. JE

      ... speaking of dumb names.

    24. NA

      (laughs)

    25. JE

      But, um, luckily that passed, and I came up with a, a replacement for a, a daughter's name that was m- much better. But, um, so during that week, um, Johnny Z, our, our manager, who, uh, personally I didn't really like him that much, you know? Um, he w- he was kinda, he's a l- eh, there was something kinda dodgy about him, like in that music business way.

    26. NA

      Mm-hmm.

    27. JE

      That, uh, also put a bad taste in my mouth, um, on a lotta levels, um, just b- being in that, that industry. But Johnny, you know, as much as I didn't like him, he came through, and maybe he was motivated by economic reasons rather than, you know, he's being a stand-up guy or whatever. But he signed the band to Megaforce, to his label. Um, p- put up the money for the recording, to record the record, put us all back on salary so it didn't miss a beat, like, no one had to get a day job. And then Terry, Terry Date, much to his credit, like, he, he had every right to bail, right? He's like, "Pff, okay. What, what's the next gig? Okay, I'm there." He got us, um, studio time at Bad Animals Studio in Seattle, which is Heart's old recording studio. It's gone now. Um, like, all this happened in, like, a week, 10 days. Um, like, everything was back on track, just like new label, uh, new studio in Seattle. And so, loaded up the gear, flew to Seattle, and w- like probably 10 days later, we're doing pre-production demos at Bad Animals and recorded the record and it was done, I think, by December. The mix was done. I actually went back to New York and, and worked in the warehouse for a month to make some extra money, and then the band, well, not the whole band but, uh, Sean, Pat, and I, um, decided to move to San Francisco just for, like, a change of venue. So, d- I think New Year's Day or the day after, um, I loaded up a U-Haul with all our stuff and, like, drove cross country by myself, which was, like, a super fun road trip. And then we got an apartment in the Mission District in San Francisco, and that's where, like, (laughs) like, 1993 was, uh, a very transitional year, and that's where it kinda, uh, uh, things got to the point where it's like, "Okay, I gotta do something different for me personally."

    28. NA

      And what happens next?

  8. 30:13 – 33:13

    Drugs, touring, and the end of the road: deciding on a radical new chapter

    1. JE

      So the, we're living in San Francisco, like, that, like, e- even w- the, while we're living in the house in New Jersey, um, during the recording process in Seattle and, and in San Francisco, like, like taking a lot of drugs, like a lotta, hallucinogens mostly.... but, you know, had, had my flirtation with heroin, like first started, um, just smoking it, you know, on, on tinfoil, and then went into IV use. Um, and like I honestly enjoyed it, but it never got its hooks in me. And I got to the point where I was like, "Uh, yeah, I sh- I should probably not continue down this path," and walked away from it.

    2. JR

      That's a big step to go to intravenous.

    3. JE

      Yeah. (laughs) Well, like, I'm, I'm a completist, I guess.

    4. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    5. JE

      It's like I wanna, I don't wanna do it half-

    6. JR

      Yeah.

    7. JE

      ... halfway.

    8. JR

      See what the fuss is all about.

    9. JE

      Yeah, exactly.

    10. JR

      Yeah.

    11. JE

      It's-

    12. JR

      What is the fuss all about?

    13. JE

      Uh, sort of the feeling, uh, what's your experience with opiates?

    14. JR

      Oh, only like while I've been under, like h- having surgery.

    15. JE

      Yeah.

    16. JR

      I do-

    17. JE

      So it's the same.

    18. JR

      Yeah.

    19. JE

      Just that kinda weightless feeling.

    20. JR

      It's very nice.

    21. JE

      Like it's, uh, I guess the, the analogy I can make is just that kinda post-orgasmic bliss-

    22. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    23. JE

      ... where you're weightless and everything feels wonderful, just like that. Y- you know, but induced ar- artificially, I guess. Um, living in San Francisco, so we toured a lot that year, probably half the year was touring like Europe and the States. And then when we were back in San Francisco, it was like, you know, still on salary, you didn't have to work, so just hang out and like, you know, drop acid or, or drink mushroom tea or whatever. And (laughs) as fun as that is, it was like, uh, like long-term, I don't know, you know, if this is gonna be right. And it, you know, the, the record never caught fire. I think it's a solid record. Like when I hear tracks off of it now, you know, I'm kinda like, "Meh, it's not bad. No, it's okay." Um, there's a g- a couple of the songs on that record were basi- basically, uh, nascent Soundgarden songs, you know? They were like riffs or song ideas I had that while playing with Soundgarden, like Chris would hear me playing it, like noodling around, and he'd be like, "Oh, remember that," you know? And so I had a couple ideas that i- i- in a, in a, in a different life would've been on the next Soundgarden record, conceivably. So there's a couple of those songs on there, uh, and not a bad record. And w- we did, um, played like a bunch of the big festivals in Europe, like we, we did pretty much everything but make a bunch of money, you know? Which is, again, most bands, you know, most bands don't catch fire.

    24. JR

      So what happened? (laughs)

  9. 33:13 – 41:08

    Why the military: family war stories, childhood adventure, and SOF fascination

    1. JE

      So dur- during this period, 1993, um, I s- I started, I guess, crafting the next, the next chapter, right? For me. And I'd always been really intrigued by the military. Um, my grandfather, both my grandfathers, were World War II vets. Um, so my maternal grandfather was a tank commander in World War II, and he was kinda my introduction to, like, m- military stuff, you know? And I'm, I'm a little kid, so I'm intrigued by it, like, you know, "Oh, tank commander, that's cool." Like, he, on D-Day, he was an E4 corporal, like gunner, on a Sherman tank. On VE Day, his unit had made it all the way to Vienna, and he was a company commander, and it was just survival, like attrition. Like, uh, you know, I'm sure he was a fine soldier, but it was just attrition, that he went from corporal to captain in, you know, a year or whatever. Um, my grandmother's second husband, um, was a, a corpsman in the Navy, so his story's super funny. Like he grew up in this small town on the Columbia River in Washington State, so his... I think there was like 20 dudes in his graduating class in high school, and so they graduated June 1942. So right after graduation, like 201, like every, every male in his class went to the recruiter and enlisted. And so he went in the Navy, um, his Navy MOS was like, uh, a pharmacist mate or something like that, so he's like, "Oh, I'll be on the ship like working in the dispensary or whatever." Like, wrong, like he graduates, like they give him a helmet and attach him to a Marine platoon, infantry platoon, and like, "You're the medic." And so he did like seven amphibious assaults in the Pacific, like (laughs) like crazy stuff, right?

    2. JR

      Wow.

    3. JE

      Yeah. Like it was super hard, and he had amazing stories, you know? Um, and then my, my father's father was in the Coast Guard, and he did, um, a lot of coastal patrolling, um, Oregon coast, Washington coast, Columbia River, during the war, um, just, you know, looking for Japanese subs or whatever.

    4. JR

      And so you... because you had this sort of wanderlust that made you wanna go trek in the Himalayas and-

    5. JE

      Mm-hmm.

    6. JR

      ... you had this family that had this background in the military, you were thinking that this would be something that would be adventurous or intriguing to you?

    7. JE

      Y- yeah. Like I've always, I've always had a taste for like high adventure, like a- as a child. Like before, (sighs) probably even before I was at school, so like Sat- Saturday morning cartoons, like y- how old are you?

    8. JR

      55.

    9. JE

      Yeah, we're the same age. So I imagine probably grew up with similar cultural influences. So I remember in the, like mornings watching TV shows, like cartoons, like Johnny Quest was the big one, right?

    10. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    11. JE

      Uh, Speed Racer-

    12. JR

      Yep.

    13. JE

      ... Mo- Marine Boy, like all this... You know, and Speed Racer and Marine Boy were a- were anime, but they were like great, you know... Marine Boy was basically Speed Racer but underwater.... you know, it's super cool, fantastical stuff, um, great to feed the imagination. Like, the, the writing for Jonny Quest was so good, you know? And, like, the show in, in retrospect was, like, kinda progressive. It's like, Jonny had two dads, and like, they had this, like, um, multiracial, like, composite family (laughs) . Like, it was, like... But the writing was so solid, like super creative, um, every... I think it was only 26 episodes, but each episode is distinct and well-written, and just, just cool, you know? So, I would watch this as a kid and be like, "I'm not sure what that is, but I wanna do that." You know? So that was kinda the initial impetus for, like... And then growing up in the woods in Western Washington, like, I was expected, you know... I was kicked outside after breakfast and not expected to be seen again till dinnertime, and what I did between then was, like, on me. And so I'd go out and do stupid stuff like climb high-tension power lines-

    14. NA

      Oof.

    15. JE

      ... you know, to the top (laughs) , like, five, six years old.

    16. NA

      Jesus.

    17. JE

      Like, so, so, so stupid, right? But it was like, "Oh, this is cool," you know? Um, like, my... And my mother, she definitely facilitated the stuff, like, um, much to her credit. Like, we'd go camping, uh, in the Olympic Rainforest on the peninsula, and there's, like, a couple rivers there, but one of the main ones is the Hoh River. And I had this, as a child, I had that, like, this $20, you know, Kmart inflatable raft with the oars, and my mom would drive me upriver, like, like, 10 miles or 15 miles or whatever in our Volkswagen bus, and, like, drop me off, me and my, my $20 Kmart boat in a, a life vest, and she'd be like, "All right. See you at the campground." And so I would be doing (laughs) this, like, you know, white, white water rafting by myself in my, in my cheesy little boat for several, several miles, and, you know, didn't drown, obviously. But it, it kind of instilled, again, this, or reinforced this sense of adventure, you know? And I'm sure my mom would go to jail for that today, (laughs) you know?

    18. NA

      Probably not jail, but-

    19. JE

      Yeah.

    20. NA

      ... definitely be discouraged.

    21. JE

      Mm-hmm. Um, so that's background for the high adventure thing, the military thing. Um... So 1993, I'm like, "Okay," um, like, "I, I need to do something. I need that punctuated equilibrium," right? "I need, I need a, uh, a dramatic event in order to promulgate, like, the, the next period of growth or evolution or whatever."

    22. NA

      So you really actively thought that way?

    23. JE

      Yeah.

    24. NA

      That you were trying to achieve growth?

    25. JE

      The... Yeah, I didn't wanna stagnate. I didn't wanna, um, fall behind, you know? Um, a- as... Like, like, I guess as soon as I figured out what life authorship was, or the concept, even though I made, may have not have known the term, yeah, I kind of endeavored to actively author my own life, um, um, you know, pursuing the ends of making a life that kept me engaged, kept me interested, um, and was, was meaningful to me, you know? So the military seemed like, like more and more like a viable option for, for that next, that next page, that next step. So I, I... At the time, like 1993, there wasn't a lot of books out about special operations, um, and pretty much the only ones y- that were out there were, like, Vietnam dudes, so I, I devoured every, you know, Vietnam War special operations book, whether it was like LERPs, Rangers, SEALs, uh, SF, whatever.

    26. NA

      Had Dick Marcinko written his books yet?

    27. JE

      That, I don't know. Um, I don't think so, 'cause I think I would've remembered reading them. I read one of 'em when I was, um, in gulag in Ranger school, and it s- it seemed kinda (laughs) like, over the top to me, b- but that's a, a digression. I think there was one book out about, like, uh, the SOF experience during the first Gulf War, and it, it kind of went over different units and different operations, and I think that's the

  10. 41:08 – 48:32

    Enlisting with a Ranger contract: basic training, RIP/RASP, and peacetime battalion life

    1. JE

      only kinda contemporary one that I was even out, but it was like, "Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna do this." So, while we're in San Francisco, you know, between, like, dropping acid and taking mushrooms (laughs) , I was going to the recruiter. And, like, uh, I went to the Navy recruiter first 'cause I actually knew someone who was a SEAL, a former SEAL, and so that seemed intriguing to me. So I go to the Navy recruiter, and I'm like, "Hey, I wanna, I wanna be a SEAL." And they're like, "Well, um, here. Take the ASVAB." So the ASVAB is, like, this IQ test that the military gives you. And, uh, so I took it, and I, I s- scored pretty high on it. And so they're trying to push me into, like, more technical MOSes, you know? And I'm like, "But no, that's not what I wanna-"

    2. NA

      What does MOS stand for?

    3. JE

      Oh, sorry, um, if I get too jargony-

    4. NA

      That's okay.

    5. JE

      ... please stop me.

    6. NA

      Yeah.

    7. JE

      Um, Military Occupational Specialty.

    8. NA

      Okay.

    9. JE

      Your, your, your job.

    10. NA

      Mm-hmm.

    11. JE

      And I... The Navy doesn't even call it MOS. I think they call it RATE or something like that. And so I'm like, "No, I don't wanna do that." So basically, it came down to they couldn't even promise me a shot at, at trying out for BUD/S, you know? Take- taking the PT test, basically. And so, uh, I didn't know really anything about the military, but I knew enough, o- or I suspected enough, that like, "Okay, I'm not g- I'm not gonna sign anything unless I'm, like, guaranteed a shot." And so that's when I started talking to the Army recruiter, um-... and, uh, they could guarantee me. So basically they gave me a ranger contract. So Ranger Regiment's interesting in that it's pretty much the only special operations unit in the US military that has, has privates, like has brand new soldiers. Um, pretty much every other unit, it's all NCOs. So that's kinda, that's kinda your entry level soft unit in the US military, is ranger regiment.

    12. JR

      And so what happens?

    13. JE

      Uh, so I finish my Mindfunk touring obligations, which went pretty much almost up until Christmas, like in, in des- mid-December, say. And, uh, like left the band, uh, and I think two months later I was in basic training.

    14. JR

      What were you thinking while you were in basic training?

    15. JE

      Uh, I mean, basic training's like, it was like every movie cliche you've seen, like happens. It's like, "Oh, and this is, you know, this part."

    16. JR

      (laughs)

    17. JE

      Um, it was, uh, it was a necessary step, right, for t- for the progression. Um, it wasn't really challenging. Other ... The most challenging part about it was, like not being able to do what I wanted to do whenever I wanted to do it. That was like the biggest challenge for me. Um, your, your entire life, your ... every minute of your day is controlled. So that was kinda like, "Yeah, I don't know if I d- dig this," you know? (laughs)

    18. JR

      Right.

    19. JE

      And, uh, but, you know, sucked it up, went through it, um, after, um, what they call AIT, like Advanced Individual Training, which for me was infantry. You go through the infantry MOS training, uh, go to Airborne School, and then go to, uh, s- selection for regiment.

    20. JR

      So was ... What was the physical aspect of it like? 'Cause it seemed like you were just partying and living life, uh, you know, like a rock star before that. You just, doing heroin and all this stuff-

    21. JE

      (laughs)

    22. JR

      ... and then all of a sudden, you know, you're involved in something that's very physically grueling.

    23. JE

      But I, I did, I did prep. Like I got a, a YMCA membership, and I was swimming at the Y. I was running. I was, uh, I ... Even though I was kinda going into it somewhat blind, I didn't know- I knew that, like I can't just show up, like and not have any kind of fitness level, you know?

    24. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    25. JE

      So I, I did do some prep work, and I, I think it served me well.

    26. JR

      Was that the first time you had done physical stuff like that in your life?

    27. JE

      No. I mean, I w- I was never ... Eh, I played soccer when I was a kid. Um, like the s- soccer was like the, the one sport that wasn't ... didn't have that jock culture, you know?

    28. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    29. JE

      So that's kinda what I gravitated towards, so uh ... And, you know, I did a lot of physical outside stuff like my whole life, you know. I, I worked in Alaska on a fishing boat, like, um, there was nothing ... It wasn't foreign, you know, like ph- physical exertion.

    30. JR

      And so what happens then?

  11. 48:32 – 57:07

    Back to school, then back to war: SF selection, 9/11 in language school, Iraq and Afghanistan

    1. JE

      (laughs) Uh, I finished my enlistment. It was like a four-year enlistment, I think, and then I, I got out, 'cause it was like ... Uh, in a way I kinda thought like I achieved what I aimed to achieve by going in the military, and there definitely, you know, wasn't a, a war on the horizon, at least one that no one, that anyone could see.Um, so I had a break in service for a couple years, and I, I kinda fucked off. Um, ended up going, uh, to community college, which is, like, another kinda funny story. (laughs)

    2. NA

      (laughs)

    3. JE

      If you're interested.

    4. NA

      Sure.

    5. JE

      So, uh, I, I came back to Washington basically, um, when my, when my mother died. And so, I, I was kind of, like, dealing with, with her and her stuff. And it was like, there's a, a local community college, uh, where I grew up, and like, "Oh, maybe, maybe I'll give this college thing a try." You know? And so I registered for some classes. But the, the funny thing ab- about that story is, when I was, like, eight- 18 I guess, 17, like, right before I graduated high school, um, all my friends from high school who were gonna go to college, 'cause like in my mind I was never gonna go. I was like, "Why am I gonna go to college?" Like, "Fuck this." You know? I was, you know, a- angry young man, uh, dissatisfied on pretty much every level, but I was like, "Yeah, I'm not going to college. Col- college has nothing for me." But I wanted to hang out with my friends, like the dudes I skateboarded with and played music with and stuff, and so they were all going to take their SATs at the local community college, like on a Saturday morning or whatever it was. And so I went with them, just so I could hang out with them. But... (laughs) And I, I took the SATs, but I took my SATs on acid.

    6. NA

      (laughs)

    7. JE

      (laughs)

    8. NA

      How'd that go?

    9. JE

      I have no idea.

    10. NA

      (clears throat)

    11. JE

      And I, I didn't care. I never picked up, you know, the scores. Like, who... It was probably just, like, making designs on the paper or something.

    12. NA

      (laughs)

    13. JE

      Like, you know? Like, I, at that point, like, academia, like higher education, that, that ju- just wasn't gonna happen for me. And so yeah, it was kinda this fuck you punk rock thing. Like, "Phew, I'm gonna take my SATs on acid."

    14. NA

      Right.

    15. JE

      So fast-forward 10 years, I'm in that same room at Olympic College in a class (laughs) ta- taking a- an astronomy class. Um, th- and the building is still there. It's called the rotunda and it's this round, as you can imagine, building on campus. And, uh, yeah, so who's laughing now? (laughs) You know?

    16. NA

      So what was your idea, like, doing that, taking astronomy classes, going to college?

    17. JE

      Uh, again, personal growth. Like, "Oh, may- maybe I should focus on this aspect now, like a- academia." Like, so I, I did that first semester, first two semesters at Olympic College and found that I liked it. You know? I like going to class and I like taking notes and I like learning, and I'm like, "Oh, oh, I get it now." You know? This whole college thing. So I finish my associate's, um, at Olympic College and then, uh, went back in the Army. And so I was in this Special Forces Qualification Course, like when 9/11 happened.

    18. NA

      And what caused you to go back in the Army?

    19. JE

      Uh, it wa- it w- it was a gut feeling. It was like, "I, I don't think I'm done with this." So, uh, I, I went, went to selection, got selected, and selection, at least at the time, was good for life basically.

    20. NA

      So how many years were you out?

    21. JE

      Like two.

    22. NA

      Two years ago?

    23. JE

      Yeah, not, not long, not long at all.

    24. NA

      Mm-hmm.

    25. JE

      And, and, you know, I blink now and two years goes by. But a, a lot had happened personally in those two years. And so I'm back, back in the Army, uh, doing the Special Forces Qualification Course, which for my MOS, like the 18 Bravo Special Forces Weapons Sergeant, was, like, about a year and a half. So it was the first day of language school, um, which was six months long, um, was 9/11.

    26. NA

      Wow.

    27. JE

      Yeah.

    28. NA

      What was it like being in the military when 9/11 went down?

    29. JE

      It was, like, uh, I think everyone there... So we're, there's a group of us in this building at Fort Bragg called the SOAF, the Special Operations Academic Facility, and we're, you know, st- standing around the beginning of the day, like, drinking coffee, getting ready to go to class. First day of class, and there's television monitors on with C- CNN or whatever, and you, we're watching the planes go into the tower. And, like, I think 201 everyone knew that everything's changing right now. It's like this is, like, 100% for real. And, like, everyone was like, "Yeah." You know? (laughs)

    30. NA

      That's how you felt?

  12. 57:07 – 1:08:38

    Combat, tribe, and meaning: why war can feel profound (and dangerous to miss)

    1. JR

      That's got to be a wild change of life to go from being a musician to go from being a deployed special operator in Afghanistan. Like, the shift in consciousness is so extreme.

    2. JE

      (sighs) M- maybe.

    3. JR

      Maybe?

    4. JE

      But I, I, I, I think I'm pretty good at just with rolling with stuff, you know? It's like, "Oh, this is happening now, okay?"

    5. JR

      But that's a big-

    6. JE

      But that's good.

    7. JR

      ... happening.

    8. JE

      (laughs)

    9. JR

      That's a huge happening-

    10. JE

      Yeah. I don't-

    11. JR

      ... to be in combat.

    12. JE

      Uh, I mean, definitely, I think the war in, in combat was the most profound experience of my life, for sure. And, and I, I don't mean to maybe treat it lightly, 'cause I don't take it lightly. Yeah, it's f- by far the most profound experience of my life.

    13. JR

      So many guys who come back from that, not only do they say it's the most profound experience of their life, but many of them say it was the best experience of their life.

    14. JE

      Um, I understand that, for sure. Like, uh, I guess I could encapsulate it like this. Like, uh, you, you got, you got your, your dudes, you know, your, your, your team, your, your little indigenous troopers, and you're gonna go crush some target. And, you know, you, you know, like, I never had a doubt that, um, like, maybe I would get injured or killed, but the, the, the, the... I never had a doubt that the mission would fail, just 'cause the, the odds were just in our favor, you know? It's like, you got night vision, you got a, a, a CAS stack, you got this huge support apparatus. It's like, there's no way we're not gonna win this fight. Um, but, but going on target, closing with, destroying the enemy, and then getting you and all your dudes back to base alive, best feeling in the world.

    15. JR

      Really?

    16. JE

      Yeah. Uh-

    17. JR

      So many guys say that.

    18. JE

      Best feeling in the world.

    19. JR

      Wow.

    20. JE

      Yeah.

    21. JR

      What is it l... Like, what... Can you describe it?

    22. JE

      (laughs) I, I, I, it's, um-

    23. JR

      Or give an attempt?

    24. JE

      I... I think (sighs) like, and I got my, uh, kinda evolutionary ideas about why that is.

    25. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    26. JE

      Um, I think that we're, we're, on a very essential level, like, doing what human beings, or one of the things we're meant to do.

    27. JR

      Or maybe one of the things we've always done.

    28. JE

      Well, yeah. We're an adversarial species, but like, every species in nature is adversarial.

    29. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    30. JE

      You know, and it, it's not an evaluative sta- a- evaluative statement. It's just kind of a, an observation. So I think on this g- i- just the way our brains are, like, uh, evolutionarily, like, okay, w- we're, we're the monkeys with the big brains, right?

  13. 1:08:38 – 1:31:00

    Afghanistan realities: poppy economy, corruption, and an ancient crossroads of empires

    1. JR

      How bizarre was it, the whole poppy field thing? 'Cause I remember one of the most interesting, uh, aspects of the war was that we were protecting poppy fields, and there was this weird video, I don't know if you've ever seen it, of Geraldo Rivera, who was on Fox News, spinning this in some sort of a way, but realizing how ridiculous it sounded while he was interviewing a general who was on the f-... On the field, or I don't remember if it was a general or soldier who was on the field, who was explaining why they were doing this. That they were guarding the poppy fields so that these people could keep making heroin.

    2. JE

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JR

      And, you know, you're, you're looking at this and, especially someone who has a knowledge of Vietnam, that it was intimately connected with drug running, and that there was a lot of that going on, that was part of the purpose of it, in that somewhere someone was profiting off of this to the tune of billions of dollars.

    4. JE

      Mm-hmm.

    5. JR

      And you're not exactly sure how, or how it was being done, or what involvement the United States military had in it. But in this particular instance, you're living in the era of social media and the internet. Not, not necessarily social media, but at least the internet, where people are very aware of things like that, that are i-... At the very least inconsistent with the narrative that we have here in America, that drugs are bad. Bad people sell drugs. Bad people make drugs. We have to stop the drugs from getting into the country. Now, here you are. You know, we're, we're watching Geraldo Rivera, a Fox reporter, putting this, like, really clunky spin on why we have to do this. And I can only imagine it's because it had already been exposed that the United States was doing that, and they had to say, "Well, we have to come up with some sort of an excuse for why we're guarding heroin production."

    6. JE

      So (sighs) I guess my understanding of if, if the US mil was doing that is probably, like, a secondary consideration, 'cause, like, at least down south, like, that w-... That's a huge part of the economy.

    7. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    8. JE

      It's like opium production.

    9. JR

      Yeah.

    10. JE

      And I would guess it would be eradicating, like, the, the poppy fields would be a worse choice. Like, like, economically d- destabilizing, like, you know, these people who are already super poor.

    11. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    12. JE

      Um...

    13. JR

      But it's also, for sure-

    14. JE

      Yeah.

    15. JR

      ... aiding in the profit of selling heroin.

    16. JE

      Oh. Oh, yeah. I mean, like, the, the Taliban would make money from opium production.

    17. JR

      Yeah.

    18. JE

      You know, even though it's against Islam or whatever.

    19. JR

      Yeah.

    20. JE

      It's like... Yeah. No, it was... I, I don't know how to crack that nut.

    21. JR

      Was that talked about over there?

    22. JE

      Nah. I mean, like, DE-... I know DEA was over there doing, doing their thing.

    23. JR

      What were they doing, selling it?

    24. JE

      I (laughs) ... I don't know.

    25. JR

      (laughs)

    26. JE

      Like-

    27. JR

      But that's what so strange, is that it seems like, you, you know, e- especially when you have this disconnection from the mainstream media and from, you know, uh, channels of information getting to other people, that this is a part of what's happening over there. That there's... It was... I believe at one point in time it was 90+ percent of the world's heroin-

    28. JE

      Yeah.

    29. JR

      ... yeah, was coming from Afghanistan.

    30. JE

      Yeah. I mean, I d-... I don't, I don't have an answer.

Episode duration: 2:35:47

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