Joe Rogan Experience #1970 - Bill Ottman

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast,…

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music)

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      And we're up. Hello, Bill.

   5. BOBill Ottman0:14

      Hey, man.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Good to see you, buddy. What's going on?

   7. BOBill Ottman0:16

      Good to see you. We're here, man. (sighs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:18

      You are here.

   9. BOBill Ottman0:18

      Everything's going wild.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:19

       How was your, uh, site going?

   11. BOBill Ottman0:22

       It's going. We're decentralizing as fast as possible, getting it out of our hands so that... We need to protect ourselves from ourselves.

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:31

       Hmm. How do you do that? Tell everybody, it's Maps.

   13. BOBill Ottman0:35

       Minds.

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:35

       Minds, rather. Sorry.

   15. BOBill Ottman0:37

       Minds.com, M-I-N-D-S.com.

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:39

       I just had, uh, Rick Doblin on-

   17. BOBill Ottman0:40

       R- Rick, no, I- w- yeah, yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan0:41

       ... psychedelics on the brain.

   19. BOBill Ottman0:42

       I sense kinship with Maps.

   20. JRJoe Rogan0:44

       (laughs)

   21. BOBill Ottman0:45

       Yeah, um-

   22. JRJoe Rogan0:45

       Yeah, Minds and Maps, the- the two of them should go together perfectly.

   23. BOBill Ottman0:48

       They probably should work together.

   24. JRJoe Rogan0:49

       Seamlessly.

   25. BOBill Ottman0:50

       Yeah. So, basically there's protocols and there's platforms. So, you know, Twitter, Minds, um, other social networks, these are platforms. They're kind of built in the traditional social media style, which is on servers that are, you know, live in huge cloud centers. Um-

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:12

       Right.

   27. BOBill Ottman1:13

       And, but, there's also protocols. The one that we're working with now is called Nostr, which stands for Notes and Other Stuff transmitted by Relay. So, there's no company owns this protocol. The founder is anonymous. Sort of similar to Bitcoin. And what it is, is it's all about crypto key pairs and signing stuff. So, with Nostr, it- this is all happening in the background on Minds. Every user has a cryptographic key pair, which you can download in your settings. You're the only one who gets the private key. That's your identity. Your content, your followers, all that is tied to your identity. So, when you post something, when you follow somebody, that is creating a signature on this decentralized network of relay nodes. So, we run a relay, thousands of other people run relays. Snowden's on Nostr now. He, it- it's like getting serious endorsement. And it's ama- because it doesn't have a company, you know, e- 'cause companies are choke points.

   28. JRJoe Rogan2:18

       Hmm.

   29. BOBill Ottman2:18

       That can, you know, we saw what happened with Napster, for instance.

   30. JRJoe Rogan2:22

       What happened with Napster?
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Um, and it's just...…

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:00

   2. BOBill Ottman15:00

      Um, and it's just... Like, we, we can all agree that there's a problem with TikTok, and that there's... You know, the Chinese government having access to all of this data is, is problematic. But, like, we... There should be an encrypt act, like pr-... Encrypt everything, but you can't go around banning apps. It just doesn't work. It's irrelevant. People are going to use, uh, VPNs. I, I, I think this, this, uh, act needs... I, I don't think it's gonna make it. I hope-

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:28

      Well, I hope you're right.

   4. BOBill Ottman15:29

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:29

      Because more people are talking about it. Tulsi Gabbard posted a big thing about it. There's a lot of people that are up in arms. But my concern is, if it wasn't for social media, that act, wh- which is kind of ironic, right? If it wasn't for social media and people sharing this and becoming outraged and people discussing this, it would have slipped right through, like the Patriot Act did.

   6. BOBill Ottman15:50

      Hmm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan15:50

      The Patriot Act existed in a time where there wasn't social media, and people weren't really aware of what they were pushing through until it was too late.

   8. BOBill Ottman15:59

      Yeah, I think there's much better solutions. I mean, b-... Did you watch any of the TikTok CEO getting grilled?

   9. JRJoe Rogan16:04

      Yes, I did.

   10. BOBill Ottman16:05

       Okay, so-

   11. JRJoe Rogan16:05

       Yeah.

   12. BOBill Ottman16:06

       ... you know, that was interesting, because, you know, he's a pretty... He seemed like a sober guy. Um, but, and his point was, well, you have to have consistent standards for other social media companies too. I mean-

   13. JRJoe Rogan16:19

       Right.

   14. BOBill Ottman16:19

       ... Face-... Like, how do we know that Facebook and Google, just because they're US-based doesn't mean that they're not giving data to China? We have no idea.

   15. JRJoe Rogan16:27

       We have no idea.

   16. BOBill Ottman16:28

       So, that's really the issue. We need to understand what specifically are all of these apps doing. They should be labeled very specifically, um, you know. And, uh, we're starting to see some of that happen, but th- the thing is you can't know with these proprietary apps, 'cause they're just not sharing anything.

   17. JRJoe Rogan16:46

       I think one of the problems that people have with, uh, whether any kind of decentralized, um, uh, app like yours or any other de- decentralized, uh, social media network is that people immediately go, "Oh, what do, what do I have to do to do this?" Like Mastodon. When people started using Mastodon-

   18. BOBill Ottman17:07

       Right.

   19. JRJoe Rogan17:07

       ... and you get on it, and you're like, "What is this? There's so many servers, and how do I know what to join, and what, what, what's going on here?" Like...

   20. BOBill Ottman17:14

       Yeah. So, well, Mines is different. Mines is actually not fully decentralized. We're a hybrid. So we run a centralized infrastructure, but we interface through delegation, delegated cryptographic event signing. We, we... That's happening in the background, but like, our app feels like a normal social media app. It's different. Mastodon, the way that that works is federated instances. So there's all of these different instances with different URLs, and there's like 20 people on each one, and you know. But there is sort of some interoperability between the instances, because the, y- you can subscribe to somebody on another instance from your instance. But it's not fully decentralized, it's federated. And the problem is that you don't own your identity. So if, if, if one of those instances goes down, you're screwed. Your, your stuff is, is gone. With... In, in Nostr, which is like an architecturally different setup, and there's other protocols similar to Nostr, but...... it doesn't matter if, if the website goes down. You just pop over to another one, upload your, your key and all your stuff is there. So, a- and that's why we like it, because it keeps us in check, because our users could, can now basically, if we fuck around, they'll bounce and they can take their stuff. And that's, you know, the... Because the fu- the social graph specifically is the key, because you spend a decade buil- you know, getting all these followers.

   21. JRJoe Rogan18:43

       Right.

   22. BOBill Ottman18:43

       It's your life. People spend their lives doing this, and then to be able to just get taken out by YouTube is so devastating and unethical. It's ridiculous.

   23. JRJoe Rogan18:51

       Well, it's really creepy too, because many of the things they took people out for have turned out to be true. Like, there was a lot of things that they were labeling as disinformation or misinformation, which are 100% proven fact now, and people lost their accounts and there's no recourse. They're not gonna reinstate you, and that was a problem also with Twitter, that for the longest time, if you said anything that was contrary to whatever the narrative was, wha- whether the government was pushing it or the CDC was pushing it, like anything contrary to that narrative, you would get fucked.

   24. BOBill Ottman19:26

       (laughs) Yeah. And those people are not-

   25. JRJoe Rogan19:28

       And those narratives were also-

   26. BOBill Ottman19:29

       ... they're not back though. I will... I think Twitter's making way more progress than everyone else. And I'm, look, I'm ultimately an Elon fan, I'm rooting for him. I think it's vastly improved, but there's chaos currently underway at Twitter.

   27. JRJoe Rogan19:42

       Oh, sure.

   28. BOBill Ottman19:43

       The, uh, and, and those people have not all been let back on, and I, I don't really understand why.

   29. JRJoe Rogan19:47

       So who hasn't been let back on?

   30. BOBill Ottman19:47

       The people that we don't know. The people who's random Joe Schmoe posting a COVID study, like has he been let back on? All the thousands of people that got banned, like, it seems-
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Hmm. …

   1. BOBill Ottman30:00

      you can even search them, and... But the point being is that... And I submitted a comment on their GitHub where this algorithm exists. It's like well, if this is the algorithm, why wasn't the Substack blocking showing up in the algorithm the other day?

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:17

      Hmm.

   3. BOBill Ottman30:18

      I mean, it wasn't. It wasn't there. So clearly there's some sort of a link blacklist, um. And, you know, Twitter did say that this isn't the whole algorithm and they're going to be releasing more over time. But the problem is we should have seen something change-... in that, when all the-

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:35

      Mm-hmm.

   5. BOBill Ottman30:35

      ... Substack blocking went down.

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:38

      Mm-hmm.

   7. BOBill Ottman30:39

      So, yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan30:40

      How many users does Minds have now?

   9. BOBill Ottman30:42

      (laughs) Um, we are five million.

   10. JRJoe Rogan30:45

       Oh, that's great.

   11. BOBill Ottman30:46

       We actually had to take a little haircut because we, um, you know, and we're trying to be as honest as possible, because, o- basically, we had been counting that people who, you know, fail... Data is hard, and so people who had, like, tried to sign up were, in our data, showing as signed up, so, you know, back, backed it up a little bit. But the point being, we don't use any closed-source proprietary analytics tools. So, like, the temptation, when you're s- running a startup, trying to create an app, is to just go to the, you know, Silicon Valley display case of Google Analytics and Customer.io and all of these surveillance tool, uh, th- they're, and analytics tools that are very powerful and can give you very precise data about what's going on. But y- but we have refused to use any of those tools because you, when you u- put Google Analytics on your website, you are becoming Google. You are now part of Google's tentacles. And you're basically handing over all your, th- that user data to Google. And we just, like, our whole foundation has been fully open source, and just don't take shortcuts. And so, we're g- like, our growth path is, is healthy. It's happening. We're continually growing, but we're n- I'm not gonna, I, I don't care about the pace of growth as much as the quality. And so, you know, we built a whole da- Like, we do machine learning. We, we're, we're starting to do AI, but we're doing it in an open source way. So, like, in the AI wars right now, you have, like, open, quote unquote, "OpenAI," which isn't, you know, it's barely open. They don't share much of what's going on, and they shroud that in some sort of, like, "Oh, we're, you know, we need to protect you, and we need to not let this get out of control." Which maybe there's an el- element of truth to that. But then, there's a whole other part of the AI world, like with Stable Diffusion and, and Stability and, we're, all, it's all open source, and it's being done in the open, and everybody has access because, you know... Do you, as you see all this AI stuff coming about you, do you think that you should... How, how do you feel about that? Do, do you think that you should be compensated in a way? Do you, do you have any, like-

   12. JRJoe Rogan33:13

       No.

   13. BOBill Ottman33:13

       ... you mentioned copyright.

   14. JRJoe Rogan33:14

       Yeah, no.

   15. BOBill Ottman33:15

       Do you have any issues with it?

   16. JRJoe Rogan33:16

       No. I mean, it, it is what it is. It, there's no stopping that.

   17. BOBill Ottman33:20

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan33:20

       And, um, I saw it a long time ago because, uh, w- this company from Canada was the first one to take, uh, all of, um, I mean, they, they essentially got a database of all my, uh, audio recordings, which is fucking thousands of them. So, there's so many hours of me talking that they could easily have me saying a bunch of things. And so, they, uh, put together, like, um, this, this recording of me saying a bunch of things that I've never said, and me talking about some subjects and doing these things, and it was a conversation that I never had.

   19. BOBill Ottman33:57

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JRJoe Rogan33:57

       And then, they did one with me doing a podcast with Steve Jobs, which was wild, and then now, there's a new one with me doing a podcast with Sam Altman, and, uh, it's a full podcast.

   21. BOBill Ottman34:08

       I listened to the beginning of that one, and I think they did it tastefully 'cause they made it very clear-

   22. JRJoe Rogan34:12

       Yes.

   23. BOBill Ottman34:12

       ... that it's not you.

   24. JRJoe Rogan34:13

       Yes.

   25. BOBill Ottman34:13

       Yeah. Uh-

   26. JRJoe Rogan34:14

       It's a proof of concept.

   27. BOBill Ottman34:15

       Mm-hmm.

   28. JRJoe Rogan34:15

       It's like they're showing that this is something that can be done, and there's no flavor to it, which is interesting. Like, there's no, like, if you and I are having a conversation, it's, there's f- fun. There's, like, there's laughing, there's d- d-, you know, there's, like, there's human interaction. This was just like, question, answer-

   29. BOBill Ottman34:33

       Yeah, and then it'd be like-

   30. JRJoe Rogan34:34

       ... question, answer.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. BOBill Ottman45:00

      they basically said, "Look, we want... we need to be transparent. No one takes anything in crypto seriously unless it's transparent and audited. Um, so we're gonna make it so that we're showing you all the code. You can make sure we're not spying on you, doing anything sketchy, but if you're a commercial entity, you cannot fork our code and compete with us for the next two years." So, they basically were giving themselves a head start. The license that we use is the, (smacks lips) GPL V3, which says that anyone can do whatever they- they can... and people do. Peo- there are other versions of Mines around the world, people running it and having a- their own social network. But if they make changes, they have to share those changes with the world. So, it's referred to as copyleft in kind of the copyright world. It's basically that... yeah, we're... y- you have to... it's sort of a pay it forward.

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:50

      Mm-hmm.

   3. BOBill Ottman45:50

      I borrowed from you. I'm gonna use that to build my business. Yeah, I'm gonna sell it. I'm gonna make a ton of money, but, you know, the development that I did, I also have to share. And there's many others. I mean, there's even licenses that are way more restrictive, but still provide the transparency. There's ones that are just read-only. Like, "Listen, you can read- read this and see it, but you cannot touch it." You know, that would be a h- a step in the right direction for Facebook, but... and the thing is that they know about this power dynamic, because they do create tons of open source tools, like React. Angu- Ang-... Facebook created React, which is, like, one of the most popular JavaScript frameworks. And, you know, Angular was made by Google, and tons of databases and backend tools. These big tech companies do contribute a ton to open source, but they only do it on the stuff that, you know, are developer tools, 'cause they know that the developers will only use their stuff if it's open source. Developers are ne- are never gonna use something that they don't have control over. So, it's like this very intentional game that they're playing. Their main apps, they do not... they're not transparent about at all, but they know that they need the developer energy. (sniffs) So, you know, I think that they should just do it, and the- the- the great thing... even though the Twitter algorithm's not, (smacks lips) you know, there yet, I think that Elon is... when I saw that happening, I was just like, (sighs) "Finally." You know? It's like, one of the big guys dipped their toe in the water.

   4. JRJoe Rogan47:25

      But it really has to be someone like Elon, who's eccentric and i- i- insanely wealthy, who's willing to go out on a limb for $44 billion and overpay for a company, and then sort of, like, fucking throw it upside down.

   5. BOBill Ottman47:39

      But it's... y- you know, it's- it's working.

   6. JRJoe Rogan47:42

      It's working-

   7. BOBill Ottman47:42

      Yes, it is.

   8. JRJoe Rogan47:42

      ... and it's... you know, besides all the people that, like, publicly decried that they were done, like, that's not real. Like, the- the reality is, like, they're- that's not really that important. The real important stuff is the mass amounts of humans that are constantly sharing information, and that seems to have gone up.

   9. BOBill Ottman48:01

      Yeah, I- I think that Elon also just changed the way that the billionaires act. Like, before him, you know, who's another billionaire that shit-posts memes?

   10. JRJoe Rogan48:16

       Nobody.

   11. BOBill Ottman48:16

       I mean, just... but that ha- don't underestimate, and I kn- you don't, but the fact that he did that, I- I think it sort of paves the way for other people up on his level to start being more real.

   12. JRJoe Rogan48:30

       Do you think so?

   13. BOBill Ottman48:31

       I hope so. I- I th-

   14. JRJoe Rogan48:32

       I think most of them are cowards, and they just don't have the courage to, like, be that wild.... and just really post things they think are funny. Like, when he pu- for me, my favorite one ever was the Bill Gates one, when he posted the photo of Bill Gates next to a pregnant man emoji, and it's like, "If you ever want to lose a boner real fast..."

   15. BOBill Ottman48:52

       And he has a specific, uh, beef with Bill Gates because he's shorting Tesla stock.

   16. JRJoe Rogan48:57

       Yeah.

   17. BOBill Ottman48:57

       Um, but yeah, exactly. I mean, y- they should. It's good for, uh, people like real things. People don't like fake things.

   18. JRJoe Rogan49:04

       Mm-hmm.

   19. BOBill Ottman49:04

       Like, they should... Even if they were being, uh, sketchy and, like, manipulative about it, like, they should be acting real-

   20. JRJoe Rogan49:10

       Mm-hmm.

   21. BOBill Ottman49:11

       ... because that's what people like. I saw Bezos, uh, tweeting. Bezos, I- I- I think he wants to come out of his shell. He was tweeting some s- like, a Barry Weiss article, which was weird.

   22. JRJoe Rogan49:23

       Interesting.

   23. BOBill Ottman49:23

       You know? Because Amazon, we j- we just ditched Amazon. We moved our whole operation over to Oracle because they're more committed to free speech.

   24. JRJoe Rogan49:33

       Hmm.

   25. BOBill Ottman49:34

       Um, and, you know-

   26. JRJoe Rogan49:35

       Does Amazon censor?

   27. BOBill Ottman49:36

       I mean, they banned Parler.

   28. JRJoe Rogan49:39

       Oh, did they?

   29. BOBill Ottman49:40

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan49:40

       Interesting.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. BOBill Ottman1:00:00

      and so what's happening... And, and, um, in another tweet, Elon had... Someone had said, "You should buy Substack." And Elon responded, "Yeah, maybe I will." And this was like two months ago.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:12

      Mm-hmm.

   3. BOBill Ottman1:00:12

      And so they've been pursu- I, I... It seems as though they've been in negotiation for Twitter-

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:17

      Really?

   5. BOBill Ottman1:00:17

      ... to actually buy Substack. I mean, El- Elon said it. And he's also super tight with Marc Andreessen and so probably Substack thinks this has a, eh, certain valuation, Elon wants to get it for less and was trying to say, "Listen, you are reliant on us."

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:36

      Right.

   7. BOBill Ottman1:00:36

      "You're whole-"

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:36

      "We're helping you grow and then I'm thinking about buying you."

   9. BOBill Ottman1:00:39

      And I'm thinking about buying you.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:00:39

       "This costs me more money the more time that you're doing this."

   11. BOBill Ottman1:00:42

       "So what I'm gonna do is...... cut off your API access and show you-

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:00:47

       Yeah.

   13. BOBill Ottman1:00:47

       ... who's daddy.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:00:48

       Ooh.

   15. BOBill Ottman1:00:49

       (laughs)

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:00:49

       Right.

   17. BOBill Ottman1:00:50

       So, th- I mean, who knows? Because I don't think that-

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:00:53

       Just speculation.

   19. BOBill Ottman1:00:54

       I don't think that he want, like, was out this to censor. And unfortunately, Elon has successfully enraged both mainstream and now independent journalists. Which is not... I, I don't think he intended for that to happen, but that's what happened. I mean, the, all the Substack jour... You know, that's one of the best places for independent journalism.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:01:10

       Yeah.

   21. BOBill Ottman1:01:10

       And now they're all pissed 'cause, you know, there was a period of time where their businesses were screwed up.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:01:15

       Well, not only that, it was the very people that were using Twitter to put out these Twitter n- n- the, these Twitter pages. So, there were all the emails that showed the collusion between the intelligence agencies and the former heads of Twitter. You know, like, this was the same guys, and they were publishing this.

   23. BOBill Ottman1:01:36

       Yeah, and, like, they all thought they were friends. (laughs)

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:01:38

       Yeah.

   25. BOBill Ottman1:01:39

       So-

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:01:39

       Well, as soon as the money got involved, you know, that's where things get weird, right?

   27. BOBill Ottman1:01:43

       Yeah, and so I think it kind of is a, a corporate, um, negotiation byproduct.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:01:51

       Hmm.

   29. BOBill Ottman1:01:51

       It seems like that's kinda what happened, because I, I, I don't think that he intentionally wants to, to hurt those-

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:01:58

       What I like about Elon is he'll, will change course. If he doesn't, if, if people respond in a negative way, they don't like it, they get upset, he's like, "Okay, we won't do that." And he's publicly said that he would do that, and I like that he does do that.
6. 1:15:00 – 1:20:33

   Yeah. …

   1. BOBill Ottman1:15:00

      to the al-..." 'Cause his time is so... He knows how much he can make every second of the day-

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:15:05

      Yeah.

   3. BOBill Ottman1:15:05

      ... spending on a video.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:15:07

      Mm-hmm.

   5. BOBill Ottman1:15:07

      And, like, so if he's gonna go do an interview with another smaller YouTuber, like, that's impacting his, his rev.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:15:15

      Right.

   7. BOBill Ottman1:15:15

      And I just... I, I think that's dangerous to, to let that control the content that you create. It's backwards. Like, you're, you're, th- like the comic was saying, it's like-

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:15:25

      Yeah.

   9. BOBill Ottman1:15:25

      ... do, do the thing that you do as, as best as you can possibly do it. Don't make the algorithm... Like, I guess you could if the algorithm is your thing, if that's what you want to be the passion of your... Like, I guess maybe some people do love it, but-

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:15:41

       Yeah.

   11. BOBill Ottman1:15:41

       ... seems a little bit inverted.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:15:43

       It's a little bit inverted, but that's also... I mean, he does so much good and it's so interesting to watch him do the thi- I mean, I, I get it because, like, his content is fantastic, so what he's trying to do is maximize the reach of his content.

   13. BOBill Ottman1:16:00

       Mm-hmm.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:16:01

       And so it's just, just clever.

   15. BOBill Ottman1:16:04

       Oh, yeah. The, the blind, curing the blind peop- I mean, that was, that... We need more of that.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:16:09

       What's wild is he got hate for that.

   17. BOBill Ottman1:16:11

       Right.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:16:12

       But that-

   19. BOBill Ottman1:16:12

       What was the hate specifically?

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:16:13

       Who gives a fuck?

   21. BOBill Ottman1:16:15

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:16:15

       But it's just funny because you cannot do anything that won't piss someone off because people are engaged in recreational outrage, and that's what they're doing. And they're trying to figure out an angle, "Oh, this rich guy is doing this thing and really he shouldn't even be rich. No one should be rich and blah, blah, blah, blah, no. Oh, you're just trying to do this to make yourself look good." There's all these angles that people take on things, which is their prerogative and i- in a world of free speech, uh, the, the beauty of what, you know, is the nature of the First Amendment is that you should be able to express yourself. And so I s- fully support those cunts to rag on him for-

   23. BOBill Ottman1:16:57

       How many blind people have you cured? I mean, like-

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:17:01

       I mean, they're allowed to have their perspective on it. And yeah, I mean, obviously that's the take, like, "You're not doing anything, so shut the fuck up." But people who aren't doing anything are also allowed to chime in on stuff.

   25. BOBill Ottman1:17:11

       Yeah, yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:17:12

       And they can look petty and they can look foolish or they can have really good points, you know? And that makes you... But that's the be- beauty of what we have today. There's so much dumb shit involved in social media and there's so much bickering and hate and there's so many people that are addicted to it and it's elevated their anxiety level and they're all on medication now because they're fucking tweeting 12 hours a day. There's a lot of that going on. But if you can figure out how to manage yourself and manage it, now we have access to information at an unprecedented level where, like, something like the RESTRICT Act gets picked apart by brilliant people on Twitter, on Facebook, on Instagram, on everything. And that's so valuable. So we have to figure out a way to preserve that and it's, it's, th- this... To have this kind of thing today, i- it has never existed in human history. Never. Not one time has there been a time in human history where a person could tweet about a thing and it could be shared by millions of people and all of a sudden the conversation about the subject changes. So you have a public narrative that's being pushed o- forth by these propagandists and then someone comes along and says, "Actually, this is what's really going on." And Twitter will fact check it and then pe- people chime in. And this is a beautiful thing. I mean, it's, it's really an amazing thing. So with all the bad that comes with social media and all the, the weird shit that it's doing to kids, it's just not good. But-

   27. BOBill Ottman1:18:46

       Yeah. The, the government is now using it for, you know, propaganda purposes as well now. Y- everyone's playing the game now-

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:18:54

       Yes. Yes.

   29. BOBill Ottman1:18:54

       ... 'cause the government's in it.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:18:56

       Yeah.

Episode duration: 2:52:49