Joe Rogan Experience #1988 - James Reed

Narrator 0:00 (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) How are you, sir? What's going on, man?

James Reed 0:13 Very good. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:14 What a incredible piece of work you put together. I mean, that was... I'm so impressed, and I, I loved it so much. I mean, I don't even know where to begin.

James Reed 0:24 (laughs) Um, well, um, very pleased you liked it. Uh, you, you tell me, where do you want to begin?

Joe Rogan 0:31 Where did it... How did it start? Like, how long did it take, first of all, to get embedded to the point where they allowed you to be around them like that?

James Reed 0:41 Okay, so, I mean-

Joe Rogan 0:43 We should tell everybody, it's, uh, Chimp Empire.

James Reed 0:46 It's Chimp Empire, yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:47 Yeah.

James Reed 0:47 So four-part series, chronic- chronicling the, this unusual period in the Ngogo chimpanzees' lives, right. Um, so we, we are very, very lucky. Basically, there's, there's a scientific project out there that's been working at Ngogo for almost 30 years now. So scientists, when they first arrived, the, the chimpanzees were not habituated to humans at all. So they kind of came knowing there was a big group of chimps out there, um, but they, but they didn't know anything about how many there were or who they were, and, and they had to go through this process of ha- habituation, which, which basically means sort of following them around and getting them used to humans observing them. So in those early days, the chimps would just run off. They'd have total fear for, for humans, so they weren't even able to, to see them, let alone study them. But that, that sort of... They gradually overcame that fear, and, and to the point where the scientists can just arrive with their notebooks and gently follow them around, kind of within the group every day. So after years of doing that, it ma- it makes it possible for a film crew to, to come in and kind of literally walk in their footsteps. So, so that, that process of actually being accepted into the chimpanzees' group was sort of... We, we had this, we had this previous scientific project that enabled us to do that. Um, and in terms of for the, for the series, um, we had like 400 filming days. We knew that we wanted to be sort of observing them from, in detail and from sort of within the group. And yeah, we, we were able to do that with a great crew, lightweight equipment, and sort of followed them around constantly for about 400 days.

Joe Rogan 2:40 Wow. I mean, the footage you guys acquired, it's, it's, it's really amazing. It's... I've never seen anything like it. I mean, it's like, it's like a chimp was carrying around a camera.

James Reed 2:51 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:52 I mean, was there any moment where they interacted with you guys, where you thought, like, maybe you were threatened or in danger?

James Reed 3:01 You know, there's... You, if, if you're filming lions or something from a, from a sort of safari vehicle, you, you film 'em with a, with a long lens, and you're kind of spying on them from a distance. So they, they might sort of clock that you're in a car from a long way away, but you're, you're observing them and you're, you're kind of not part of it. You're, you're looking in from the outside. With chimps, partly because of the, the habitat they work, they, they live in, right? It's a, it's a, it's a dense rainforest, so if you were 50 meters away, you, you can't see anything, so you need to be close to the chimps to, to observe and film them. And, and also it wouldn't be a good idea to try and creep around and, and hide from them. They, they, they wouldn't like that. So you sort of... You, you peacefully, gently kind of make your presence known, and they sort of... They, they acknowledge you when you turn up. They're certainly sort of checking you out, um, but then they go about their daily business, and it is... It's incredible how little interaction they have and, and, and how little that they sort of ever, ever even come close to interacting with you.

Joe Rogan 4:12 Wow, but what about if you have food or something that they want? Do they get curious about things like that?

James Reed 4:18 You know, they, they're very careful there in that the scientists for years have sort of made sure that, you know, there's strict rules that you, you can't take... You, you take food in, but it's in concealed containers. You don't eat in front of the chimps. That, that's exactly the sort of thing that could cause a situation if there was some association with food or something that you had that they wanted.

Joe Rogan 4:42 Yeah.

James Reed 4:42 So that's really carefully managed, and there's... It... You know, they don't associate w- you with food, and they just treat you as a sort of passive observer. Having said that, you know, you are... You're right in there, and, you know, they could be just sitting around peacefully, sort of playing or grooming each other, or they could be doing something quite aggressive and they could be fighting, or they could be patrolling for another group, or, or hunting. And then, even though none of it is sort of targeted at you, they are behaving in a, in, in a way that can be quite intimidating around you.

Joe Rogan 5:20 Was... What was... I mean, I think the most disturbing thing to me with chimps is... Well, there's two things. One, that they murder each other, but two, the hunting of the monkeys.

James Reed 5:32 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 5:33 Watching them hunt and kill and eat monkeys is so weird for... I mean, I think... Was David Attenborough the first one to capture that on film?

James Reed 5:44 I don't know whether he was the first one. Actually, I think Jane Goodall, back in the day, when she was doing the Gombe... Well, she still has the Gombe chimp site, but I think she and maybe a NatGeo team, I think they sort of documented it for the first time, um, and at that point, nobody knew this, this happened, and then I think on a David Attenborough project it was documented as well. But in Ngogo-You know, they, they're the biggest group ever known, and they are a very strong and powerful group, and there's a lot of males. And it is often the males that are involved in the hunting, and they have taken hunting monkeys to a- to another level.

Narrator 6:29 Was that... What is that like to witness live? 'Cause primates eating primates, I don't know why, but it's just, it-

James Reed 6:39 It doesn't feel right.

Narrator 6:39 There's this visceral reaction.

James Reed 6:41 Yeah.

Narrator 6:41 It's like, "Oh, boy."

James Reed 6:42 I think, yeah, it- it feels... You know, 'cause you kind of group, you group primates together-

Narrator 6:48 Yeah.

James Reed 6:48 ... and, and we're sort of separate in a way, or that's how, how you think of them anyway. And I think also you spend so much... You know, if you're, if you're interested in chimps or you spend time around them, you can't... You're constantly making connections between you and them, so you're feeling... Even though it's kind of a one-way thing, you're feeling those similarities all the time. And then you... But then you see how they behave to other primates and, and it's quite... It- it's shocking. You- you- you can't believe the... As sophisticated as they are and how connected you feel to them, you know, they, they, they don't feel that sort of level of compassion or empathy for, for other primates at all. And they are... Yeah, they, they hunt them regularly.

Narrator 7:35 Yeah. How many did you witness them kill?

James Reed 7:39 It was, it was quite a lot. I mean, you know, we've... It's a completely sort of true, authentic story that we documented, so, so everything in there is, is what happened and in, in the order that it happened. But obviously, we were there for 400 days, so there's quite a lot of things that we filmed that didn't make it in. Now, we didn't keep anything back that we thought was relevant to the story, but there are sometimes other examples or other hunts... Hunts is a really good example. You know, we didn't, we didn't put in the series every time they hunted a monkey because it would be a lot of hunting monkeys. We, we saw it quite a lot. Um, you know, I remember on the, on the second shoot, but it was the first time that a, a new camera crew had, had come out. And I was with one of the camerawomen, Lauren, and she, she was re- really experienced woman in filming in hostile and remote locations but had never filmed chimps before and wasn't really used to the environment. And, and on our first day out, they, they hunted a big black and white colobus monkey. And, you know, I mean, it's everything that goes along with it. It's the sort of the, the cooperation, the, the teamwork. Um, you know, there's a tension in, in the air when you know that they're going to hunt, they've decided to hunt, but it's not on yet. And they're sort of moving around the forest trying to get in a, in a position where they can successfully catch this monkey. But then once they go for it and then they're just chasing it, and it- and it- and it's chaos. And, you know, they, they are organized in a way, they know exactly what they're doing, but you're sort of running around after it and you quite often don't know, don't know exactly what's happening. Where's the monkey? Where are the chimps? And she (laughs) she was just like, "Where am I?" Like, "What (laughs) what have I got myself into?" But she was absolutely amazing because she sort of, you know, held the shots and, and a lot of what she filmed that day is- is in the series actually. But I don't know, the energy when you're there and you're watching it, the, the energy of the whole thing takes over. And, you know, maybe this isn't a good thing but I think when you have seen it quite a few times and you accept it as part of the, the natural relationship between these two species, you do become slightly desensitized to it. Um, and, yeah, I remember the first time I saw it being, being very shocked, but once you've seen it quite a lot and you know it's a natural part of their lives, you... Yeah, you don't, you don't feel the same way about it actually.

Narrator 10:20 I- Is that their preferred food do you think?

James Reed 10:24 Well, they, th- they're mainly fruit eaters, ripe fruit specialists. So, you know, their territory is, is filled with, uh, fruiting trees, and those trees fruit at, at different times and at different cycles. And they have this incredible knowledge of, of all the trees that are in their territory, and, and they have a good idea about when they're gonna come into fruit as well. So, they're always moving around this vast territory and sort of checking out what's in fruit and what isn't. And they'll know that something's, "Uh, it's not quite in... It's not quite ripe yet. It's not c..." But, but that'll, that'll stay there and they'll come back and they'll, they'll feed off that tree in the, in, in the days immediately after. So, that's really... That's, that's... They ha- To survive, they, they, they depend on fruit. Monkeys seem to provo- provide a sort of a, a different, uh, purpose in, in the chimpanzee community. They're definitely valuable from a nutritional point of view, but there seems to be other things going on as to why they hunt. And, you know, I'm gonna use some of the wrong terms here that scientists probably wouldn't, uh, wouldn't support, but they s- they do seem to enjoy it. It does seem to provide some sort of cooperative function. You know, it's not, it's not sport, but at the same time, you know, it's, it's not purely for survival. It's... There, there's something else there. And I think in, in... You know, when you watch them share meat after they've, they've hunted a monkey, that's when some of its sort of function becomes clear because who, who catches the monkey and then who gets a share of that becomes a really political business. And, and, and that feels, you know, from, from our perspective watching it, that suddenly it all sort of fell into place a little bit because who gets meat and who doesn't has a sort of... Um, it's very political.

Joe Rogan 12:31 Yeah. It, it seemed like that in the documentary where, when in particularly, uh, (clears throat) when the female with, uh, the baby got some and the one male that didn't get very upset and attacked her.

James Reed 12:44 Yeah. That's, that, that's a kind of a classic ex- example of it or yeah. You know, they're all there trying to get a piece of meat because they want to, but, um, it, it risks upsetting other chimps at the source of food.

Joe Rogan 13:03 Mm-hmm. 'Cause there's only so much meat.

James Reed 13:05 There's only so much-

Joe Rogan 13:06 And a lot of chimps.

James Reed 13:07 Yeah. And there's sort of, the strongest alliances are being sort of served in, in that situation. So sometimes, you know, chimps get a s- a scrap here or there. In that particular incident, she, she made it a w- away with quite a big share of the monkey, and I think, now I wasn't there filming that particular moment, but I remember the, the crew saying when they came back, "It did feel like that, that's trouble actually. Good, good for you for getting a share, but actually that's y- y- you're gonna get into trouble somehow."

Joe Rogan 13:40 Hmm.

James Reed 13:40 But because, you know, whether she was aware that there was somebody who's, you know, a high-ranking male was being excluded at the same time, so there was this tension between the males, and then this was further complicated by a female getting a share, and then he just blew his lid.

Joe Rogan 13:59 It's just so fascinating to watch the, the communication and the, just the politics that are involved and the, all the negotiation and the way they-

James Reed 14:11 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 14:11 ... treat each other. It's, d- wa- was that surprising to you that, that it was so complex?

James Reed 14:20 D- Y- yes. I mean, I've, I've worked with chimps before. Um, you know, I'm not a chimp scientist. I, you know, I'm not an expert in that sense. But, but I have, you know, I've done a f- I've done a film myself few years earlier on the Ngogo chimps, and I also have worked on another one years previously. So, so some of that I, I knew. And that, and, and, and in part that was why we made the series, that we knew there was gonna be this level of complexity. But we'd never, and I don't think anyone has ever committed that much m- sort of filming resource and dedication to that intense of a period. So we sorta seemed to be able to record it at the level of detail that I hadn't seen before and I don't think anybody else has. And that, so that did surprise us. Yeah. And it, and it surprised me personally. It's the, the sense of awareness, like, you know, as far as we know, there, there's quite limited vocal communication with chimps. You know, they, they make sort of, they make food grunts, which tells other chimps that they're enjoying some food. Um, they make pant grunts, which are a sort of (grunting) this, this noise that they make to each other which is a signal of submission, and their various calls. But as far as we know, there's, there's not a huge amount of complexity in that. There's n- there's not a lot of language. But the amazing thing is that there seems to be some other level of communication going on, that they somehow know, um, what each other are about to do. Or, or in some circumstances, they don't and they're surprised and it causes conflict. But I think about particularly when you watch chimps go on patrol, right? They, they patrol their borders, the, the borders of their territory, and they do that in, in silence, and they do that for a reason because they don't want anybody outside their territory to know where they are. But how to coordinate that when they're not making any noise to each other at all, th- they're looking at each other and they're sort of they appear to be reading each other's intentions and they kind of know without anybody saying anything that, "We're going on, we're going on patrol now. This is it. We-"

Joe Rogan 16:48 That was very fascinating.

James Reed 16:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:51 Because I was trying to figure it out myself, like how were they coordinating this? Like how do they know?

James Reed 16:57 You know, they, they... I, I have had endless con- conversations with the scientists in Go- at, at Ngogo about that, and, um, you know, they're stumped as well because there aren't really any, there aren't really any signals that this is about to happen. And you know, they'll be lying around or, or grooming or doing something completely, um, disconnected, and then one chimp will, will, will get up and just start walking off in the direction of the border and, and then the others will join. And then as they start moving closer to the border, the just the amount they vocalize just goes down and down and down to the point of being completely silent. And yet, it, it's a mystery. The- there must be something going on there, um, and, and often, you know, maybe it's associated with specific individual chimps who the other chimps know that, that those guys are patrol leaders. You know, y- years ago, in the early days when, when the scientists were first there, uh, there was a chimp called Ellington and, and he was the patrol leader when Ngogo was one big group. He never showed any real interest in the dominance hierarchy. So he never made a play to be alpha, didn't really seem that bothered. He was a high-ranking male, but he was not engaged in that internal dominance struggle at all really.... but of all the patrols that they witnessed there, Ellington was the one who was present for the most, and quite often leading them. So, he seemed to have this, this attraction to that behavior, or this, this, this ability or, or desire to go and patrol their, their borders more than other chimps. And, and maybe in some ways that explains the lack of communication, that they're more... That it's, it's actually the very fact of Ellington getting up and moving off for no apparent reason does communicate to the other chimps, "Okay, we're, we're gonna go on patrol now." And you know, the, the, the sort of modern version of Ellington who was, who was around, uh, during our filming period is a chimpanzee called Rollins, who similarly has, has never shown any real interest to make it to the alpha position. While whilst all the other males are sort of, you know, jostling for position there, and you get the, you get the feeling that ultimately they all wanna be on that top spot, and they'll just get as high as they can. Rollins doesn't seem to, doesn't seem to have that desire, or certainly it doesn't, it doesn't appear so. But he is the patrol leader. He's, he's always out there in front and taking the western group on, on patrols. And, and they do it a lot, and it, and it's very often him. And, and what was interesting was that his, his younger brother, who really is just in adolescent chimp, Damian, he was just kinda coming of age or just come of age when we started filming for Chimp Empire, and he really grew into that role during our filming period. He became Rollins' sort of second in command during that period. And they were so t-... I mean, they look very similar anyway. They're very different ages actually. They've got the same father, different mother, very different ages, but they, they, they look the same, but, but they don't, they don't, they don't know that they're brothers. But for some reason, they have this extremely close connection and both ha- appear to have a real desire to, to engage in this territorial behavior.

Joe Rogan 20:56 It's so wild to watch because there are sentries, there's ones that are on the lookout, they, they, they hold a particular post, and there's no communication. It's like-

James Reed 21:08 I mean, there doesn't appear to be. I mean, this is the thing.

Joe Rogan 21:11 Right.

James Reed 21:11 Like, like I said, I, I've often asked about, "How, how is this functioning?" You know, you don't... Like say, other parts of their lives they're, they're making vocalizations and signals that even though you don't understand what they are, you can, you can start to see patterns, like the food grunts for instance. You know, that's a, that's a very... It's, it's a unique sound, and, and they make it when they're enjoying food, and then the rest of chimps gather and they, and they enjoy the same food. So, there's, there's a clear way to, to, to observe that and to try and understand what it means. But patrols are, yeah, they've... You know, we know, we know a lot about them through the scientists at Ngogo and through observing them ourselves, but there are, there are mysterious elements to it that, that nobody understands.

Joe Rogan 22:01 Do you think it's taught behavior, like the, the, the main ones had to learn this out of necessity and then everybody else sort of observed this behavior and recognized the importance of it?

James Reed 22:14 I th- I think that's a g- it's a good point, 'cause we were, we were thinking a- about that a bit. When we were there, so Burgle, this, this young chimp, um, who was just sort of coming of age, he started attending patrols. So, he's young, he's only 10 years old, but he's an orphan so he'd always hung out with all the males anyway. And during our filming period he just really started bec- becoming a more frequent attendee of these, these patrols. Now, they're, they're dangerous and, and most younger chimps won't, won't do that, but yeah, you wonder whether that, that's where it kind of starts, that you're sort of... You're just m- you're mimicking the, the chimpanzees that you want to, you want to be friends with and you wanna be like, and you know that, like, this is just something you see them do, so you, so you do it with them. And, and if you do it regularly enough, e- exactly that. They maybe just, you know, you don't need to communicate that much, you know. You all know each other extremely well. You know by the way you're walking and the direction you're heading and who's there what it is you're doing, and yeah, so maybe there's just a lot of that.

Joe Rogan 23:32 Did you wonder if somehow or another there's some sort of telepathy? Or some, I mean, some sort of communication that we don't understand, whether it's pheromones or something?

James Reed 23:43 Uh, personally I've wondered all sorts of those things, you know. What, what is it?

Joe Rogan 23:50 Yeah.

James Reed 23:50 The, there is... Is there some other signal, you know? I mean, until there's proof for that it's just pure speculation, but there's, but there's a gap in the understanding there from a scientific point of view. Um, and you know, like I say, if, if, if they were here today, the scientists from Ngogo, they would be saying the same thing, that we don't, we don't know exactly how those patrols are instigated and how the chimps involved know that they're on patrol. We do not know that. So, you know, that, that... It leaves your imagination to run wild a little bit. Certainly the way their... I mean, I think t- telepathy's maybe a, a bit strong, but I mean, who, who knows? It c- we don't know that it's not happening. Um-I, I imagine the, my personal point of view, there seems to be quite a lot of sort of, um, signaling through eye movement. Um, again, this, this isn't supported by the, the scientific data necessarily, but there's, you know, they're ve- they're very sensitive to where each other are looking, or at least they appear to be. And I remember one chimp, he's, sadly he's died, although he, he leaves a lot of, um, he leaves a lot of offspring at Ngogo, but there was a chimp that featured in a film I made a few years ago at Ngogo and his name was Pinza. And when I first saw shots of Pinza, I felt this like, there's something different about this chimp and I don't know what it is. And, and in hindsight, I can't really believe that I couldn't spot it, but there was something just seemed very human about him and I started looking more closely and I realized Pinza had sort of completely white sclera, like, like you and I, right? So, you know, when I look over like that, you, you know exactly, you know exactly where I'm looking and that's a very hu- it's an important part of human cooperation. We, we follow each other's gaze and, and therefore, you know what it is I'm interested in or maybe what I'm about to do. Um, but in chimps, I was, I was reading about around it after I saw this chimp Pinza with his, with his white sclera, whites of the eyes, um, officially, chimps don't have this characteristic. They, they're, they're, they're supposed to all have, like brown, um, where we have whites of the eyes, they have brown, so the difference in color between the iris and here is, is, is less similar. Uh, there we are.

Joe Rogan 26:34 So this is that, this is that one chimp?

James Reed 26:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:35 Yeah.

James Reed 26:36 Okay. I mean, that's, I mean, it's a, it's a good one. That, that, that's not even the best sort of picture of Pinza and obviously you can see a bit of discoloration, like he, you know, they look like quite unhealthy whites of the eyes there. But he has a very defined difference between his iris and whites of the eyes. So with Pinza, even at a distance, you can see where he's looking and that may not seem like much, but in a species where we don't fully understand their communication or they appear to be doing things without any vocalizations, um, I wondered like, you know, how come Pinza's got this and what impact d- does it have? I talked to, you know, there are other examples, oh, actually, and there is, there's, there was a chimp, uh, in Gombe, I think he was called Mr. Wurzel, um, who had very good example of whites of the eyes as well. But we started, um, looking into it in, at Ngogo and I started talking to the scientists about it and, uh, and they were like, "Well, yeah. Pinza does have whites of the eyes. We've, you know, we've never really thought about it that much." And it's not that they didn't notice, but as, as filmmakers with our lenses and things, we're, we're actually getting, we're often looking at the chimps in, at an, in a level of detail that the scientists don't see every day. So in a way, we're sort of providing them with some sort of visual data, um, that, that w- that was of interest and, and actually they, they did a, a proper study on it at Ngogo and tried to find, um, how many chimps at Ngogo had this sort of whites of the eyes and they found, uh, I can't remember the exact numbers, but it was quite a reasonable percentage of it either had it, you know, Pinza's a great example, but had some version of that. They don't know why this is, but in my sort of excited sort of way, I was thinking, well, here's the biggest group of chimps ever known. They cooperate on levels that you don't see regularly in other chimpanzee groups, you know? They're on these territorial boundary patrols all the time. They hunt all the time. They, they, they're very successful on a, on a cooperative level, and they appear to be doing these things in silence. What role do these whites of the eyes play? And, you know, anecdotally, the, the scientists kind of agreed that there was, you know, there's a possibility that it, that it does play some role. Like I say, you know, we, they, they're scientists, you know, so it's, it's different. They need the data to support that. But there was, you know, what's interesting about Pinza is that even though he never, he never made it to the top either, but he fathered a huge number of offspring and, and he was always there on these cooperative behaviors. So he's, if there's a hunt going on, Pinza's around. So this was, like I say, this is just, it was just my hypothesis from a non-scientific point of view, but I thought he played a sort of disproportionate role in sort of cooperative behaviors. But again, it's just, it's an area they, they know an absolute ton about the chimps at Ngogo. It is incredible, from behavior, genetics, everything. They've studied that group of chimps very thoroughly, but there is still a lot they don't know.

Joe Rogan 30:09 So this whites of the eyes characteristic, this is a very unusual characteristic.

James Reed 30:16 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:16 It's very unusual genetic variation.

James Reed 30:19 It is. I mean-

Joe Rogan 30:21 Does, d- do his offspring have this?

James Reed 30:24 That, that's exactly what the scientists wanted to know because obviously for, for it to be of like evolutionary benefit, it needs to, it needs to persist. Um, his offspring don't ac- uh, actually not, not in a way that-... you know, if, if, if every kid that Pinter had sort of came out with these eyes, you would suddenly think, "Well, well, he is, he is a little mutation-

Joe Rogan 30:48 Hmm.

James Reed 30:48 ... that is, that is... He- he's been reproductively successful and, and, and this could help and it could actually change." Um, but no, they, they didn't find that actually. So-

Joe Rogan 31:01 Hmm.

James Reed 31:01 ... you know, for instance, R- Rollins, who's the patrol leader in the west, um, that's Pinter's son. Um, and he doesn't have that. He's got incredible eyes, actually. They're very piercing, but he doesn't have the same eyes.

Joe Rogan 31:17 How common is that variation?

James Reed 31:20 God, I really, they, we just... And I say we because the, the scientist generously gave, made me an author on the paper. And I think, you know, I didn't do any of the, the real science work on it at all, but I think because of the conversations we were having, it sort of in- inspired the, the, that particular study. Um, I think they found that there was, again, don't quote me on the numbers, but something in the order of sort of 13 individuals at Ngogo. So a, a non-trivial percentage. That sounds very science-y, but it means that like, you know, it was a significant percentage, enough to, to take note of. And, and that, that's as far the study's got. They don't really understand the impact of that, if it has any impact at all. You know, it could just be random variation. And, and because Ngogo is such a huge group, um, you know, they, they... You would expect to see more variety, um, and more incidences of, of things that occur in low levels. So they still really don't understand the role of that.

Joe Rogan 32:38 Mm-hmm.

James Reed 32:38 But it was interesting to me on two levels. Like I th- I thought it was fascinating because it made me just wonder about what's going on behind those eyes. And, but also as a human, you just engage with Pinter in this. You know, it's like suddenly, th- there's a part of his face that feels a lot more familiar.

Joe Rogan 32:56 Mm-hmm.

James Reed 32:56 And I remember, um, one of the scientists there, who was there years ago when I was there, Kevin Potts. And, and like I say, they'd say different things around the fire at night, as to what they'd say in the scientific papers. Well, I remember Kevin going, "Oh, I'm totally with you on Pinter." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:15 (laughs)

James Reed 33:15 And, um, and he said, "Honestly, some days I'll be out there following Pinter around and he's just sitting there close to me and I just think, 'God, any minute he's gonna sit, just turn around and say, 'What are you doing, Kevin?'"

Joe Rogan 33:27 (laughs)

James Reed 33:28 (laughs) And I... He was there, sort of-

Joe Rogan 33:31 There he is.

James Reed 33:31 Yeah. I mean-

Joe Rogan 33:32 Yeah.

James Reed 33:32 ... look at those eyes.

Joe Rogan 33:33 That's wild.

James Reed 33:35 He's-

Joe Rogan 33:36 So unusual.

James Reed 33:36 He was remarkable. I mean, that... You know, that's Kevin Langegrier, the, um, one of the scientists from Ngogo that... Yeah, I mean, every- everybody loved Pinter and everybody was very, very engaged with him. But even at a distance, you see-

Joe Rogan 33:52 Yeah.

James Reed 33:53 ... you can see. What, what's he thinking? What is he about to do? Um, and you have to wonder. Like that, that... It makes us think that, so are the other chimps reading anything from that?

Joe Rogan 34:06 Was there any correlation between chimps that have that characteristic and specific roles they play in the tribe?

James Reed 34:14 Um, well, I mean, a- as we said, it's... You know, it's a small portion of them, and very little sort of... Th- they've done no specific study on it. But Pinter was the, the best example. Um, he appeared to be more involved in the cooperative behaviors than your average chimp. Uh, you know, that's what, you know, the, the scientist at Ngogo was saying, you know, "When there's a hunt, Pinter's there. You know, when is, when there's a patrol, he's there." So he seemed... But chimps without white sclera would be doing that as well. The interesting thing about Pinter was how many offspring he had. You know, he never... He was actually a low-ranking male his whole life, and he had the same number of offspring as the alpha male at the time. So here's an alpha male that's sort of dedicated his entire, um, life to n- knocking off other guys in, on, on his way to the top, and all the stress associated with being an alpha male at Ngogo. And actually, you know, it's all... Uh, ultimately, it's all about having kids, and he had fewer kids than Pinter, who had just-

Joe Rogan 35:27 Hmm.

James Reed 35:27 ... hung out at number 18, number 19, you know, shying away from fights, but was very successful. But those things could be completely unrelated, because Pinter was also fascinating in that like he had a different sort of strategy with females as well. He was... He spent a lot of time with females, um, in ways that some of the higher-ranking males didn't. So they would, you know, wait until the female... They wouldn't really spend much time with the females, concentrate on their male relationships. And then when the ma- the females, you know, were in a reproductive state, in estrus, then they'd go, "All right, okay, now it's time," and, and use their position to gain access to her. Whereas Pinter played the more sort of girlfriend-type game. He'd spend a lot of time with females, even when they weren't reproductively, um, in that state. So it, so it wasn't for immediate benefits, but he spent a lot of time. He put the hours in, um, and, and yeah, the, the, the Ugandan field trackers, um, they used to love Pinter and they used to describe these different female chimps as Pinter's girlfriends and Pinter's wives, depending on how much time he spent with them, but he spent a lot of time with females. So-... you know, you know, is there anything to do with the whites of the eyes? He was just a fascinating chimp, and he did things in a, in a bit of a different way to what, um, your, your average male chimp is expected to do.

Joe Rogan 37:00 It's so interesting that he has that characteristic, and then he also exhibits behavior that's slightly more human-

James Reed 37:09 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:09 ... and clever.

James Reed 37:10 On a... I tot- I totally agree. You're, you're encouraging me in loads of ways in which the scientists have like-

Joe Rogan 37:16 (laughs)

James Reed 37:16 Like, uh, you've got to... There's no proof for that, James. There's no proof for that, but-

Joe Rogan 37:19 Yeah, okay.

James Reed 37:19 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:19 It's okay to speculate.

James Reed 37:20 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:21 I mean, how could you not?

James Reed 37:22 I'm with Jo now, so we can go down that. But, yeah. I mean, I, that, that's, I've been... You, you can get really fascinated and carried away with those thing. And the thing is, there's, there's loads we, we just simply don't understand about it, so all of that is possible.

Joe Rogan 37:36 Mm-hmm.

James Reed 37:37 Um, but yeah. In scientific world, you need that proof, that data to support it. But like I said, privately, everybody adored Pinsir and was fascinated by him, and knew there's something different.

Joe Rogan 37:51 Well, I appreciate the intellectual discipline in uh, like separating it that way-

James Reed 37:55 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:55 ... and saying there is no real scientific evidence. But my goodness, is it f- it's so fascinating. The whole thing-

James Reed 38:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:01 ... was incredible. I mean, I feel like I learned more watching those chimps from your documentary than, uh, a- anything. And I've been obsessed with chimps, like, as you see, with the skull and everything else-

James Reed 38:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:10 ... my whole life. I've, I've, I, I think-

James Reed 38:13 That's so cool.

Joe Rogan 38:14 They're so interesting. They're so close to us.

James Reed 38:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:16 I mean, and-

James Reed 38:17 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 38:17 ... at one point in time, we were sort of in the same group of-

James Reed 38:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:21 ... hominids, and something happened to us, and they sort of-

James Reed 38:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:24 ... remained the same. And it's just...

James Reed 38:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:26 That, I think, out of all the animals that human beings have ever studied, none of them are as fascinating as chimpanzees. They're s- ju- because of our direct connection to them, our, our close relation to them.

James Reed 38:39 Yeah. I, I totally agree. I mean, you know, some people love animals because they're different in different ways. And-

Joe Rogan 38:46 Yeah.

James Reed 38:46 And some people don't like chimps because they're very similar, in, in some ways that are really good and in some ways which are quite dark.

Joe Rogan 38:54 Yes.

James Reed 38:54 You know, there are lots of similarities. Um, you know, there are important differences as, as well. And I think, you know, that is what makes them so fascinating. If they were, if they were really, really similar, then, you know, it would be too similar.

Joe Rogan 39:10 Yeah.

James Reed 39:10 And the sort of, the, the intrigue is sort of where that, where is, where does that similarity end and the differences begin? And I think that's a very sort of personal experience watching chimps. I think that's why people find it so-

Joe Rogan 39:25 Yes.

James Reed 39:25 ... so cool as well, is you, you relate to different qualities in them as a species or different individuals. And I hope that's kind of what we... I, I hope that's what we did for Chimp Empire, because we, we tried to pick a real range of perspectives. And because th- they are complex creatures, they are all different, and, you know, you can say chimpanzees are like this or chimpanzees are like that, or a chimpanzee of this age does this or that. And, and some of these gen- generalisms are, are, are true and, and, uh, and are useful. But that sort of individual variation, that difference in personality from chimp to chimp, that really affects what happens to them, um, and, and what they do and, and who they have relationships with. That's, that's what's really fascinating.

Joe Rogan 40:19 Mm-hmm.

James Reed 40:19 And I think as, as a human just, yeah, you, you gravitate towards different qualities in different chimp characters.

Joe Rogan 40:27 No, I think you did a fantastic job of highlighting that. And it's, it's so, it's so compelling and so interesting and so... I mean, what is it like to be embedded with this tribe for so long and then go back to regular civilization? Is there like a bit of an adjustment period?

James Reed 40:48 Well, like, we, we were there as a team, we were there for about 400 days, so that's a huge, um, totally immersed. Uh, the team members, our human team members, swap- swapped in and out. So the, the camera crew, which was made up of, of four people usually, two on each group, um, they'd do sort of between six weeks and two months at a time, and then they'd come out, and come out, leave the forest, leave Uganda, come back home, get their lives in order, you know, have some rest. And then they'd come out for another two months when the second team was finished. And we sort of tag teamed the camera crews. I, you know, I was not out nearly as often as, as the camera crew, so I w- I personally would go out at the start of the shoots and, and help set up with the, with the camera teams and, and introduce them to what we were trying to do and, and the characters we were following and, and how we wanted to film them. At the same time, there's, you know, it's a, it's a real sort of observational documentary. So my role in it was to, you know, to try and, you know, give them a good sense of the overall approach that we were taking, the dedication that we wanted to film specific characters day after day after day. And that, you know, only after filming them th- in that sort of level of commitment are we gonna really get a sense of, of who they are. And, and that involves filming chimps, you know, when they're not doing stuff that's very interesting. You know, I remember early days, um, Gus, who's one of my favorite chimps, the a- the antisocial adolescent, um, he... I just thought he was gonna be an interesting character from the start. But the, the camera team, who were sort of tasked with sort of following him, you know, for, for miles and hours and hours during the day, they would come back at the start and going, "You know, I don't know about this Gus guy. He doesn't do a lot and he's often on his own." And, um, you know, and they'd be hearing all this, like, commotion over this other part of the forest, and as a camera person, it's like, (sighs) "Ugh, I...... I'm filming the guy who doesn't do anything, right? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 43:07 Right.

James Reed 43:07 Where's Jackson? I can hear Jackson kicking off. And, um, you know, they're jealous of the, the people who had the more sort of immediately exciting targets. But that was what we had to do to bring that diversity of characters to life is that, you know, some characters won't, won't do a lot on a day-to-day basis, but then when they do, um, you're fully invested in them and, and you're with them. And, and it was his inactivity that was kind of his, Gus's story actually. He was often on his own, which meant he wasn't doing a lot because he's just him in the trees. Um, but then when he came out of that sort of isolation and, and tried to groom someone, desperately trying to make a friend, uh, you were with him. You know, you were like, "Oh, this guy's, he's, he's come into the group. Maybe he's gonna, maybe someone's gonna groom him back." So it was, yeah, it was important to follow that, that range of characters. But, uh, but being, being sort of immersed for, for that long, you know, it's an incredible experience and I think that for everybody involved in it, that was part of it. You're, so you're living... You literally live within the Ngogo chimpanzee territory because the, the scientific study ha- has a camp. It's like this small, like, island in, in the middle of the Ngogo territory. So they're, you know, it's, it's completely pristine rainforest in every direction, but there's a little clearing and it's been there for decades. And there's a selection of sort of tents and little log cabins, very low impact and small, but that's where the scientists and the Ugandan field trackers stay every year when, when they go up there. And, and we stayed there. But being immersed in it, even at nighttime, you know, where you can hear the sounds of the forest and you know the chimps are out there sleeping not that far from you, that really helps with engaging in, in their lives actually. Had we been able to sort of, like, nip in and out and stay in a hotel outside, you know-

Joe Rogan 45:09 Mm.

James Reed 45:10 ... everybody wanted... You know, you, you missed the comforts a lot, you know? And when you do get out, you love it. But it was an important part of the process to be properly immersed and to live in the forest, and it, it just, it, it helped you sort of feel what they feel a little bit.

Joe Rogan 45:28 I would imagine that the coordination of filming and then the editing process of trying to piece together a narrative is incredibly complex and difficult because you have 400 days of footage that you want to boil down to four shows.

James Reed 45:48 It is very difficult. And I think, you know, we couldn't know... We had ambitions for it, the... But we couldn't know how successful we were gonna be at it. You know, I mean, I'm... Bay-... We, we managed to film a lot more than I, uh, ever expected. So the, the schedule and the technical workflow, you know, batteries charging, how you offload all the footage each day, the, the dailies, all of that stuff was sort of based on an assumption that we wouldn't, you know, we wouldn't have the level of access that we actually had. And the team was so good, um, and the, the cameras had evolved quite a lot since I was filming chimps even few years previously. So we got an enormous amount of footage. You know, it's also just wo- working with a team of scientists who just totally believed in it and, and, and en- enabled us to get that level of access, helped us predict what was gonna happen, where they were gonna go.

Joe Rogan 46:54 Mm.

James Reed 46:55 So we were just... Yeah, we filmed a lot more than I ever expected. Um, and yeah, condensing that down, um, and simplifying it, uh, into a four-part series was, was a huge challenge. Like I said, from, from the beginning, we, we were totally disciplined about certain things, you know. However it turned, we were gonna tell the story that unfolded over that 18 months. Um, you know, we... There just, there's not the option to, to make things up or, or create stories that didn't happen. Um, and so, so we were, you know, our, our... The challenge was going to be, well, well, what don't, what, what do we not use basically? So we filmed a lot more than we ever needed, and we did that in terms of range of characters as well. There were, there were whole character storylines that we filmed that didn't make it in. So that's where we were, that's where our editing process and our sort of, um, the creative approach to it was that we're gonna able, we're gonna be able to make these really dramatic and accessible stories by, by omission, by what we don't have in. Um, but that process is sort of like a sculpting process. You sort of come back with a, with a hundred hours worth of footage off one shoot, and we did six shoots. And then you sort of go through that and just gradually sculpt it down to, to the characters and the moments in those character stories that, that you feel are the most interesting or reflect what really happened.

Joe Rogan 48:41 Now, what is that process like? Because you s- well, first of all, you said y- you have these camps. Is there electricity in these camps?

James Reed 48:48 No. So, no, nothing. I mean, we obviously-

Joe Rogan 48:51 So how are you recharging batteries?

James Reed 48:53 Uh, so a combination of solar and generators. So we had a couple of generators that we would stick on for certain, certain little hour slots during the day.... and that would cover downloading the footage when it came back and also charging batteries and radios as well. So we had a few electrical needs that, that, you know, the scientists didn't have and weren't set up for. So, there were some things we needed to do. Yeah, we had two generators. Uh, we tried to use them as infrequently as possible because even though th- they were quiet for a generator, but you still, you don't wanna be chugging and away and using up fuel in a sort of low imp- impact situation there. But we did need a bit of power. Um, but we were al- always able to, you know, offload cards and charge batteries, and then we're ready for the next day. And then you have to do it again, and again, and again.

Joe Rogan 49:49 I would imagine that at the end of the day, there, there probably has to be a very complex system of organizing what you got and, and defining it.

James Reed 50:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:00 And then, I mean, you have so much footage to, to be able to go over that and try to piece together a storyline, and to know on what cards and on what hard drives you have what data-

James Reed 50:13 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:13 ... 'cause you're not uploading it anywhere, correct?

James Reed 50:16 No, no, no, no, no.

Joe Rogan 50:16 Do you not have internet access?

James Reed 50:17 No, no. So it's all there.

Joe Rogan 50:19 Yeah, so-

James Reed 50:19 This is quite technical stuff.

Joe Rogan 50:21 Yeah.

James Reed 50:21 If you're, if you're interested in it-

Joe Rogan 50:22 I am.

James Reed 50:22 ... I can get into it. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:23 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Please, please.

James Reed 50:24 So, yeah. And w- and we went through loads of sort of working out how, how we're gonna... how do we make sense of this? Because-

Joe Rogan 50:30 Did you coordinate this in advance before the expedition began?

James Reed 50:33 Yeah. Hu- huge amount of work beforehand, um, on, on all sorts of things. So all the camera... We, we tested out a ton of cameras. Um, so there's lots of things on the technical camera side that we had to... And that involved going to local forests in the UK and-

Joe Rogan 50:50 This is in terms of capabilities and-

James Reed 50:52 'Kay, low light-

Joe Rogan 50:53 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

James Reed 50:53 Low light capability, and, and weight, and ease of use.

Joe Rogan 50:57 Mm-hmm.

James Reed 50:57 Because... Yeah, not to get dis- distracted by that. I'll come back to the, all the logging and things, but the camera side, there's a, there's a scientist who was one of the first guys out in Ngogo called David Watts. He, he's the, he's, he's at Yale. He's a professor at Yale. He's a, he's a very big deal, very eminent scientist, but he chose for his own personal interest to carry around a little camcorder since when, not from day one when he was there, but very early from when he first went to see the chimps in the early '90s, he carried around a tiny little Palm camcorder, miniDV tapes or something at the time. And he's had various versions over the years as they've got a bit more modern, but you know, something that's about 400 grams that he could just stick in his backpack with a, with a bottle of water. Over the years, he's filmed things that no film crew has ever ma- managed to get. Now, he films them like a scientist. It's video data for him, you know. He's not filming it for, you know, it's not a 4K Netflix production, but he's just filmed moments in their lives that, that have just been impossible for film crews carrying enormous equipment, very heavy tripods so they're stable in the forest, giant long lenses, you know. Traditionally, film crews have only really managed to capture small parts of their lives. Whereas David was filming these incredible things regularly, just felt like he had this, this amazing access. And I remember thinking, like, if we, if we can find some sweet, some version of that where we have the same level of access that, that David has but with cameras, with new technology that, that will deliver for a sort of 4K Netflix production, you know. So in the, in the end, I mean, if I had the camera on the table now, you'd be like, "Well, that doesn't, doesn't look very small." And it was, you know, and the camera crew would be like, "Well, they were quite heavy actually," and, and you had to carry them around in backpacks. But they were, they were significantly lighter and easier to use than, than things that would normally be used on those sorts of shoots. So, that made an enormous difference. And I think that, but in a way, that's related to this huge volume of footage. So we sort of came up with this fantastic setup with the cameras, but it allowed these camera people who, uh, fit as well and just like super keen to just film all sorts of things that we, we didn't expect to get. Then we have this huge challenge where we've got volumes of footage that, you know, often with things that you kind of, you know, you might film a grooming scene for sort of two hours and then in the end you only wanna use a few shots of it. You know, you're still representing what happened there, but you've got this huge volume of stuff to cut out. So yeah, long... Months before we ever went there, we're trying to work out how are we gonna organize this stuff and we need to organize it like when it's fresh because we need to know who's in that shot. We can't just end up in the edit with like 300 hours of like, "Who's that chimp again? Oh, I think that's Carter."

Joe Rogan 54:12 Right.

James Reed 54:12 You know, you just can't do any of that stuff. So I imagine like, I imagine reality series do do a similar thing actually, this sort of observational docs where you're just filming a ton of people all the time or CCTV sty- style stuff. But for us, we, yeah, we needed to straight away back up the footage and then assess what we had, and every single shot needs to be logged with which chimps are in that shot, uh, what are they doing, what are the conditions, um, and then there's all the data about that's built into it that says when it was and, and, and e- even in some case GPS information. So all of that went into every single shot. So at the end of it, we've got this enormous library and this cool bit of software where you can go, "Okay, I'm pretty sure I know the story beats that we've recorded with Gus, but let's just type in Gus and bring up every shot of Gus that we got over the year."

Joe Rogan 55:08 Mm-hmm.

James Reed 55:08 And it would go... (imitates computer sounds) And then th- that, that's Gus, everything that we've got of Gus. And so...You know, we had to... Once we knew the characters that we, that we wanted to be viewing this story through, we, we were able to sort of concentrate on them and, and, and sort of build out of the narrative that we, that we filmed there. Um, yeah, build, build their storylines in, in, in parallel to the storylines with the group.

Joe Rogan 55:42 Now that there's cellphones that are capable of 4K-

James Reed 55:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:47 And, you know, you're talking about how this one scientist was able to get access-

James Reed 55:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:51 ... with this little, very small camcorder-

James Reed 55:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:53 ... was there any, uh, c- w- th- is there any thought of using cellphones? Because they're so small now and the cameras are so good.

James Reed 56:02 They are, and they are really good. Um, in the forest, they are less good actually, 'cause it's a real low-light situation. So that's, you know... And, and you don't have the ability with, with cell... You can, you can zoom in on most phones, can't you? But the quality goes right down.

Joe Rogan 56:21 Mm-hmm.

James Reed 56:21 It's a digital zoom so you're not using as much of the sensor. So although they are extremely impressive and when you're in a situation with loads of light, the images look... You know, you can blow them up on a screen like that and they look good. But they, they don't actually compare to sort of professional cameras in, in that type of situation.

Joe Rogan 56:41 But when you're talking about this one scientist that had this very-

James Reed 56:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:43 ... tiny camera-

James Reed 56:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:44 ... and all the incredible footage that he was able to get, I would imagine that with cellphones today, particularly with these... there's various add-on lenses that you can... little cases that you could put on a small cellphone.

James Reed 56:55 Yeah. You know what? It wasn't... We (laughs) ... I don't think we... We didn't think about it a lot, all because of the, the assumptions at the time was that it still wasn't gonna be quite enough.

Joe Rogan 57:08 Right.

James Reed 57:08 But I agree. I mean, I think there's... You know, you'd certainly... They, they would be recording at a level that you wouldn't have been able to before. I still think we... Our, our compromise was to try and get the highest quality possible whilst getting-

Joe Rogan 57:26 Right.

James Reed 57:26 ... that access. So like I say, if I actually got the camera out now, you'd be going like, "Oh, it looks like a... That looks like a pretty big deal." You know, it's bigger th- it's bigger than these cameras for instance.

Joe Rogan 57:35 Mm.

James Reed 57:35 But, um, but it was still relatively small compared to most sort of nature show setups.

Joe Rogan 57:44 So when you're filming, you, you film for 400 days. Like, how long is that editing process?

James Reed 57:51 So we went through, like, a huge pre-editing process, which is... or what I was talking about earlier, going from that, right, this is everything that we've shot, reducing it right down to, you know, the, the best bits and the most relevant scenes that we'd filmed. Um, you know, Gus is quite a good example. We would, you know, film him for hours not, not doing very much and looking, um, like he was struggling socially and, like, you know. So there's... You don't actually need to make that point and to share that experience with the viewer. You only actually need a small amount of that. So there's a phase of it where you sort of just reduce it down to everything y- that you think, you boil it right down. This was the story that we recorded in its most representative chunks. Um, and that really helps. You get it right down to a manageable level. And then, and then looking at that and thinking, "Okay. Well, how's this going... How are we gonna divide up these... this, this, this narrative across four, four episodes?" And, and there's obviously, that's where we had quite a lot of choice, you know? It's a... The story unfolded in, in a particular way, but we, we could choose when to introduce the different groups and we could choose how much to expand certain parts of the story and then how much to, to sort of compress, uh, times during that, that narrative that we, that we recorded. So there are quite a lot of creative choices there. Like I say, the, the, the overall, the series at the end, that, that, that's what happened. But there's a whole load of bits that we sort of, you know, compressed because you didn't necessarily need to see this, this period between that and that and it, and it, and it wasn't, it wasn't relevant for the story. But yeah, editing, so a lot of work done before the edit 'cause you can't... You know, you couldn't have expected any editors to come in and just go, "Well, you know, there's-

Joe Rogan 1:00:02 Right.

James Reed 1:00:02 ... there's the rushes. Make us, make us a good opening show, will you?" Um, so loads of work done before the editors got on board. Um, but then, yeah, four different editors, about 20 weeks per episode.

Joe Rogan 1:00:20 Wow.

James Reed 1:00:21 Um... Yeah, so what's that? Like, five months or something?

Joe Rogan 1:00:26 Yeah.

James Reed 1:00:26 But, uh, but, you know, that, that sounds like a really long time and, and it is, but you, you have to be in a position to share a cut with, in, in this case Netflix, about halfway through that process. So actually, you know, you know, putting together, um, a show that really, that really works and, and, and illustrates the story that you've captured in a, in a dramatic way, um, yeah, it ta- it takes quite a lot of work. And that needs to be, that needs to be representative of where you're going by the time you first show it. So.

Joe Rogan 1:01:02 I would imagine that's one of the biggest challenges of this whole s- piece, this whole series.

James Reed 1:01:08 Yeah, I mean, for lots of different challenges along the, along the way. And in- and in some ways, like, each time you knock off one of the challenges, you know, you feel a bit more relaxed about it. I personally, I love being in the edit. That's sort of my happy place. I mean, I like- I like being in the field. I used to like it more when I was younger and- and fitter actually, like it's- it's getting hard- it's harder. I mean, I'm not, it's not like I'm an old man or anything, but like the- the camera crews are younger and fitter than I am and, um, and lighter. Um, but the edit is, you know, that's... I- I- I love that part of the process. And, you know, you can really... Things can be... You know, you can edit shows in a lot of different ways and- and the sort of style and tone and- and the music and things. A lot of the sort of... A lot of the- the overall feel of the series starts to come- come to life, so... And I think we- we are... Fantastic editor, Sam Rogers, who I've- I've worked with a few times before, and he was... He did the first episode and he did a really, really good job. Great instincts for it, and we were very well-prepared, and we... You know, initially, we didn't do any sort of narration on it because we wanted to sort of do a test of like, how- how much can you f- how much are you gonna just engage with these chimps, um, and not be told what's happening or what might be about to happen or what that means? Just, let's just do it without any commentary at all to start with. And- and it was a fantastic exercise because then we showed Sarah at Netflix that- that first cut, and- and everyone loved it, and you could follow it, and you were just like, you were right in there. And, you know, in a way, I- I sort of, in some ways, I miss that first version because it was kind of a, it was an odd experience, just sort of like, you know, just, we are just gonna be following the chimps-

Joe Rogan 1:03:12 Mm-hmm.

James Reed 1:03:13 ... and the edit and the music and the sound is gonna sort of tell us what's happening here. Um, you might have liked that because it was a sort of, very sort of just direct-

Joe Rogan 1:03:22 Yeah.

James Reed 1:03:22 ... experience with the chimps.

Joe Rogan 1:03:25 Have you thought about releasing a different version that doesn't have narration?

James Reed 1:03:28 (laughs) Um, no.

Joe Rogan 1:03:31 You seems like you have so much footage and, I mean, I- I would imagine that it's just more people watching.

James Reed 1:03:37 Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean, in the end because we've got Mahershala Ali and- and I just loved that part of the process as well.

Joe Rogan 1:03:45 Mm-hmm.

James Reed 1:03:45 So I think in- in the end, you know, I thought it was a great exercise, but actually, uh, you know, we wanted it to reach a broad audience. We- we did want another layer of thought process there and- and- and some in- interpretation. And, you know, Mahershala does a fantastic job, and I think that, you know, yeah, it, there are- there are other voices we could've had on it that I may have sort of regretted and that might have taken something away from that, and I think that that was... Yeah, for me, that sort of confirmed that, yeah, we- we- we lucked out with Mahershala, and he was fantastic because it gave it something else. It gave it, uh, an extra sort of conceptual layer that I think really, really helps. But- but yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:36 It certainly makes it more relatable to humans.

James Reed 1:04:39 It does, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:40 Yeah, and-

James Reed 1:04:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:41 ... it makes it easier to follow along, especially if someone is not, like, completely fascinated with just-

James Reed 1:04:46 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:46 ... observing chimp behavior with no narration.

James Reed 1:04:49 Yeah, and this, the thing is, is well, you can't... Like stylistically, um, there's whole sections that you could follow actually without any narration, but then that becomes quite an unusual experience if you're just like, you go like 20 minutes without hearing a word and then-

Joe Rogan 1:05:07 Yeah.

James Reed 1:05:07 ... and then Mahershala pops up because there are actually, you need some, you need to know something here about-

Joe Rogan 1:05:12 Mm-hmm.

James Reed 1:05:13 ... what's at stake. You know, and that's often, uh, how we sort of tried to shape the- the narration, was sort of on a need to know basis. Um, you know, I think we, be- you know, because the voice really worked, we sort of decide to use it a little bit more, but our initial approach was, well, I think in certain situations, you know, for instance, Gus going to re- groom Abrams or whatever, you need to know what's at stake there. You need to know that he doesn't- he doesn't actually have any grooming partners and that this is, you know, this sort of opportunity with a chimp like Abrams could- could change his situation.

Joe Rogan 1:06:01 Mm-hmm.

James Reed 1:06:01 And you could, you know, partly you could follow that visually, but I think it- it really, it helped sort of really solidifying s- some of those thoughts.

Joe Rogan 1:06:12 You have so much footage and four shows.

James Reed 1:06:15 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:06:16 Ha- has there been thought about expanding this and- and doing more episodes?

James Reed 1:06:21 (laughs) Um, I mean, I think it will be hard because we sort of, because the series covers the sort of, the- the true chronology of events. Um, so all- all the sort of real drama and real things that happened throughout that period, you know, are represented in the series. So quite a lot of the footage that we didn't use are just sort of other examples of the same thing, that we didn't-

Joe Rogan 1:06:51 Mm-hmm.

James Reed 1:06:51 ... you know, less descriptive versions of, you know, or repeated behaviors and things. So there wasn't a lot of things that you sort of feel, ooh, there's a whole nother show in there, and- and also there weren't things that, you know, how the series concludes, that was- that was really at the end of our final shoot. So-... the footage that we have is sort of supporting material for everything that's sort of out there. Um, but I mean, you know, the story still continues at Ngogo. Um, you know, things are still going on there and still changing.

Joe Rogan 1:07:30 Do you get updates?

James Reed 1:07:31 Yeah. So we, I mean, we're, we're, we're pretty close to all of the scientists there and have been for, for years. You know, we're, we're friends and, and stay in touch. Um, I'm seeing one of them tonight actually who lives in Austin. Um, but they, they are often texting things that are happening now that they know we'd be interested in.

Joe Rogan 1:07:58 Now, has there been thought about doing another series?

James Reed 1:08:02 Um-

Joe Rogan 1:08:02 'Cause this has obviously been very successful.

James Reed 1:08:05 Well, you know, I think, (laughs) I mean, it's hard to say. Y- you know, it's only been a few weeks, so it's hard to say how, how successful it is yet actually.

Joe Rogan 1:08:15 'Cause Netflix doesn't tell you.

James Reed 1:08:16 No, they don't tell you.

Joe Rogan 1:08:17 Yeah, they're crafty with that.

James Reed 1:08:19 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:20 (laughs)

James Reed 1:08:20 Yeah, they-

Joe Rogan 1:08:20 But it's obviously just anecdotally from people that I know. I mean, so many-

James Reed 1:08:23 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:08:23 ... people recommended it before I watched it. I got so many text messages like, "You must watch this. This is right up your alley." So many people told me about it.

James Reed 1:08:31 (laughs) Well, I think, I think 'cause of your interest though, you might get a bit of a bias on the sort of like-

Joe Rogan 1:08:36 Sure.

James Reed 1:08:36 ... overall conversation on it maybe. I don't, I don't know. I mean, I'm, I'm assuming, um, because people know you're into chimps. I think, yeah, I mean, and I read, I read the Twitter feed each day. I can't resist. I'll refresh that.

Joe Rogan 1:08:50 Mm-hmm.

James Reed 1:08:50 See what people are saying about it, and really, um, yeah, I'm, I'm really excited about the feedback. Um-

Joe Rogan 1:08:59 You should be.

James Reed 1:08:59 But I don't know, yeah, whether it's going to get bigger or bigger or, or who knows? I mean, I personally and the whole team who, who are involved in it, you just kind of fall in love with that place.

Joe Rogan 1:09:14 Mm.

James Reed 1:09:14 And the people who work there and the, and all the chimps. You know, whether we're filming or not, you kind of just, well, you wanna find out what's happening, what's happening at Ngogo 'cause you're following that story, whether you film it or not.

Joe Rogan 1:09:25 Yeah.

James Reed 1:09:25 And I think we'll always be on a sort of like, you know, we wanna find out. Is Abrahams in charge w- you know? Um, yeah. There's things that are happening that we're constantly being updated about. Think we, we'd, we'd love to go and do a second season, but I think that's, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:09:44 Quite an undertaking.

James Reed 1:09:46 It's a huge undertaking, but I think we learnt so much on the first one that, I mean, you know, a lot of the pain about how to do it, we're sort of, we, it will, it were a much easier thing second time around.

Joe Rogan 1:10:01 But also seems like one of the most unusual situations where there has been these embedded scientists in this area for 30 years.

James Reed 1:10:11 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:10:11 And these chimps are so accustomed to it. I mean, it's, it's like to try to reestablish that somewhere else.

James Reed 1:10:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:18 And this is a very unusual group of chimpanzees too, right?

James Reed 1:10:22 It is. I mean, there, there are other chimpanzee sites, several other chimpanzee sites around Africa where, where they have a, a similar, you know, the chimps are habituated. Long term scientific projects. You know, Jane, Jane Goodall being a perfect example. You know, her, her project has been there long before the guys who were studying at Ngogo. So, that's much longer term. You know, there's study sites in Tai in the Ivory Coast and Fongoli. Um, you know, there's, there's many of them. What's unique about Ngogo is as well as having that level of access and, and data and sort of, so you just have so much information about the chimps, but there's also just a ton of chimps. And, and they are quite unique in that the Ngogo territory is surrounded by forest in every direction. Whereas at other sites, often, you know, chimpanzee habitats are bordered by, uh, farmland or human settlements of some kind. So, they're quite sort of, there, it's a little wild pocket in amongst a, an area that is less wild. At Ngogo, and I, and I think this is unique for study sites of chimps, they have, it, it's wild in every direction outside of there. So, so that does impact their, their behavior and their sort of group dynamics because the edge of their territory is not like some land they can't go on. It's land they can take 'cause it belongs to other chimps. And so-

Joe Rogan 1:11:58 Mm.

James Reed 1:11:58 And you know, whether you, whether you enjoy watching that aspect of chimpanzee behavior or not, there's a, there's another layer to what, uh, to what happens at Ngogo. Um, you know, loads of other chimpanzee sites with, they, they have different things that they do. You know, for instance, in, in, in Fongoli in Senegal, they use spears to hunt bush babies. You know, there's sort of-

Joe Rogan 1:12:23 Mm.

James Reed 1:12:23 ... there's, in every little, in every different chimpanzee site, there's like a, an associated unique behavior or, or culture. Scientists wouldn't call it culture, but to, you know, a simple way of looking at it, there's a different like sort of things that they do that are, that are separate and different to other chimp groups.

Joe Rogan 1:12:45 So you've obs- there's observed chimpanzees that use spears?

James Reed 1:12:50 There are, yeah. I haven't observed any, any of them at all. It's not, I, I've never, I've never been there or filmed that. But yes, they, they use sticks on the ground.

Joe Rogan 1:12:59 But do they sharpen these sticks?

James Reed 1:13:01 You know what? I don't know. And, uh, my partner, Rosie, actually m- made a film about those chimps. We're quite chimpy in our household. Uh, and, and she, she'll be able to answer that better. But, I, I know that they u- they use spears, and I think they make spears. So, I don't know whether they sharpen them, but they, they certainly strip them down so that they are like a spear.

Joe Rogan 1:13:26 Wow.

James Reed 1:13:27 And they, and they jab...... in holes for, for bush babies.

Joe Rogan 1:13:32 What is a bush baby?

James Reed 1:13:33 It's like a little nocturnal primate.

Joe Rogan 1:13:37 Wow.

James Reed 1:13:37 They're very, they're very cute. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:13:38 Oh, boy.

James Reed 1:13:39 I know. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:13:40 How conflicted is that?

James Reed 1:13:42 (laughs) I know.

Joe Rogan 1:13:42 Watch them... I mean, it just... Watch them tear the monkeys apart with their hands is-

James Reed 1:13:46 I know. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:47 But having them use weapons and s- spear them.

James Reed 1:13:51 Yeah. Well, I mean, chimpanzees, you know, have used tools since Jane, well, Jane Goodall, I mean, they've used tools probably for thousands and thousands of years. We don't know, but, um, you know, Jane Goodall discovered that many years ago. So making, not just using tools, but making tools.

Joe Rogan 1:14:10 Wow.

James Reed 1:14:11 It's quite cool, isn't it?

Joe Rogan 1:14:12 That is so cool.

James Reed 1:14:13 Interestingly, the Ngogo chimps, uh, they do occasionally use a tool for something or other, but they're not... Like, in West Africa, uh, in the Ivory Coast, the, the chimpanzees there use big rocks to crack nuts.

Joe Rogan 1:14:32 Mm-hmm.

James Reed 1:14:32 And they use sticks to fish for ants. Um, and same thing in, in Gombe, and, and like you say, in Fongoli, they use spears for bush babies. So tool use is quite a big thing for, for chimps generally-

Joe Rogan 1:14:46 Mm-hmm.

James Reed 1:14:46 ... around Africa. Um, but at Ngogo, they're not big tool users. Um, and it's interesting, that maybe you've just never... You know, tools are a solution to a problem for the chimps. They identify that they need something and that tool will help get it. And it feels like Ngogo that, actually they're not, they've not really had that need.

Joe Rogan 1:15:11 Mm-hmm.

James Reed 1:15:11 And-

Joe Rogan 1:15:12 Because of the fruit, and because of the-

James Reed 1:15:13 Maybe.

Joe Rogan 1:15:14 ... prevalence of monkeys?

James Reed 1:15:15 Maybe. It's, it's such a rich environment, loads of fruit. They've just, they've hammered the monkeys there. Um, I remember, yeah, John Mitani, one of the scientists saying, um, "Yeah, at Ngogo, they don't, you know, they don't use a lot of tools. They cooperate on really interesting levels." Like that's the thing that feels that is the identifying, um, or the defining quality of the Ngogo group. It's the sheer popula- the, the, the population size, they're just a massive group, um, and maybe as a function of that, there's levels of cooperative behavior there that they, they achieve those, getting the things that they want through cooperation, rather than tool use.

Joe Rogan 1:16:04 When y- you're observing them, um, hunting after monkeys, is there speculation that there's two things going on, that they're hunting the monkeys for food, but also that they're preventing the monkeys from eating the fruit? Because they must be in competition with the monkeys for these pr- prized resources, 'cause of course the monkeys eat fruit as well.

James Reed 1:16:26 They do. I don't think that's a, that's a thing. But you might... I think the overriding thing is they just like hunting the monkeys.

Joe Rogan 1:16:36 Mm-hmm. 'Cause the thing is, that, that doesn't exist-

James Reed 1:16:39 But maybe-

Joe Rogan 1:16:39 ... with other pri- with other animals, rather.

James Reed 1:16:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:16:41 With p- predators. I think they're coyotes, one of the reasons why they target cats-

James Reed 1:16:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:16:45 ... is not just for food, but the cats are also predators.

James Reed 1:16:49 Yeah. Pos- you know what I don't know? And I, and I don't think I've ever really asked that specifically to the...

Narrator 1:16:55 Mm-hmm.

James Reed 1:16:55 ... to the scientists there, but I'm guessing the, that there's so much fruit around, that it, you know, those sorts of things might be driven by like a scarcity of food. So therefore-

Joe Rogan 1:17:09 Mm-hmm.

James Reed 1:17:10 ... they, you know, take out your competitor for that food.

Joe Rogan 1:17:13 Yes.

James Reed 1:17:13 And I think what they probably say was that, you know, it's such a rich environment, and actually, they just seem to love hunting monkeys. Um, which is a shame. You know, and-

Joe Rogan 1:17:24 Is it a shame?

James Reed 1:17:25 I don't know. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:17:26 I don't know. (laughs)

James Reed 1:17:27 Well, it's, it's hard, you know, I, I, I feel like I've been desensitized to it a little bit, so you know, I obviously don't go, "Yes, they got that monkey kill."

Joe Rogan 1:17:36 Of course.

James Reed 1:17:36 Like, nah, but, but you accept it. And you... Yeah, you don't... I think if you're following the Ngogo chimps, you, you sort of, and like on some level, you're kind of with them, really. And they're-

Joe Rogan 1:17:52 Right.

James Reed 1:17:52 ... therefore, you know, you're not, you're not, like you said, you're not rooting for them, you're not... You don't really want them to do that, but you totally accept that they do. But, you know, in previous years, there, there used to be a lot more monkeys there. So the, the chimps are actually having a, a probably negati- a probably negative impact on the numbers of the monkeys.

Joe Rogan 1:18:17 But is this just... They have a very specific territory.

James Reed 1:18:21 Yeah. In the Ngogo territory.

Joe Rogan 1:18:21 And this is just in their territory?

James Reed 1:18:23 Yeah, exactly.

Joe Rogan 1:18:23 They're having a big impact. So is there a prevalence of monkeys outside of their territory, and do they ever go outside of their territory specifically to try to target monkeys?

James Reed 1:18:34 I know that they go to areas of their territory, or areas at the edge of their territory, where they know that there are more monkeys still. Because yeah, at one time, monkeys were much more common within their territory. You know, they'd avoid the chimps or whatever, but there was a, a known, there were known groups of monkeys there. And, and now there are less.

Joe Rogan 1:18:57 'Cause they're so effective at hunting them.

James Reed 1:18:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:19:01 There's a, there's one of the images of this torso of a monkey, and they're just eating it, and it's, it's so weird, because there's just something that's just so uniquely disturbing-

James Reed 1:19:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:19:14 ... about watching a primate eat a primate.

James Reed 1:19:18 I know. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:19:20 Yeah, see? It's like... I mean-

James Reed 1:19:22 It is what it is.

Joe Rogan 1:19:22 ... it is what they do.

James Reed 1:19:23 It is. Yeah, y- you... Unfortunately, um, if you, if you follow chimps, and l- and a lot of chimp, you know, a lot of chimp groups do the... In fact, everywhere where you find chimps and monkeys in the same place, it happens, I think. Um-... yet it is part of what they do, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:19:41 Do you find yourself rooting for the monkey to get away or do you find yourself rooting for the chimp to get the monkey?

James Reed 1:19:46 I mean- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:19:47 Because you, you kinda wanna capture the, the, the actual successful hunt.

James Reed 1:19:53 I don't... No, not, not necessarily actually.

Joe Rogan 1:19:56 No?

James Reed 1:19:56 No, and, and I think that, you know, particularly the type of thing that we were doing, it wasn't sort of, "No," you know, "We want that behavior." You know, we weren't out, going out to get behavior sequences. We just wanted to film what happened. And in, and in a way, them attempting to hunt something and failing is, is also an interesting story.

Joe Rogan 1:20:16 Does it happen often where they, uh, uh, attempt to hunt monkeys and the monkeys get away?

James Reed 1:20:21 It, it does h- it does happen, yeah. Not, not very often, there's a very good chance-

Joe Rogan 1:20:25 Most of the time, they're successful.

James Reed 1:20:26 Yes. I think so. And you do. I mean, having said I was... I'm, I'm a bit desensitized to it. I think, you know, the, what, the natural thing is you're, you're seeing a much bigger animal go after a much smaller animal. So in almost everybody, there's, there's an underdog there and there's, you know, you kinda, you are on some level thinking, "Come on, you just get out to that skinny tree. Get out that skinny branch, they won't follow you there."

Joe Rogan 1:20:54 Right.

James Reed 1:20:54 You know, 'cause that's the, that's the challenge, um, the monkeys try and get out right on the tips of the branches-

Joe Rogan 1:21:00 Mm-hmm.

James Reed 1:21:00 ... which are, you know, they won't, they won't hold the chimps' weight. So that's the safe bit, but then, (laughs) but then it's quite a precarious position 'cause where do you go from there? You're just kinda delaying things really.

Joe Rogan 1:21:12 Oof.

James Reed 1:21:13 Um-

Joe Rogan 1:21:13 'Cause they know exactly where you are.

James Reed 1:21:14 It's, it's hard 'cause the, you know, those monkeys are... They're complex creatures as well.

Joe Rogan 1:21:20 Yeah.

James Reed 1:21:21 And I think, you know, if we were, we were focusing on them a lot, we'd start to engage with them as individuals and, you know, would... It would feel different and it's important to remember that. But, you know, the purpose of this series was w- we wanted to experience what it was like to being an Ngogo chimpanzee and from their perspective, monkeys are food.

Joe Rogan 1:21:45 Did you observe, uh, noticeable patterns in how they hunt or strategies of how they hunt these monkeys?

James Reed 1:21:54 Um, no. Not... (sighs) I mean, not really. Other, other than, like I said, there are sort of stages to it where, you know, it's not they'll just suddenly start hunting. They'll, they'll be a process where one of the chimps might hear some monkeys, or they might have gone looking for them in a particular area and there's, there's different stages where they kinda know there's monkeys in the area and they're sort of feeling their way around, and then maybe they've heard a call and they're sort of making their way gradually over there. And then when they identify an opportunity, right? Okay, th- there is, there's a group of monkeys here and they're up in that tree, and then they can often be very quiet. A bit like being on patrol at that point, where, you know, they're just kinda getting as close as they can and in positions where they can be most effective without making any noise and without scaring anything off. Um, and then generally, it sort of it takes just one chimp to just go for it and then, and then the chase is on. So there's no element of surprise or anything. It's just, it's a rush.

Joe Rogan 1:23:13 Mm-hmm.

James Reed 1:23:13 And they're trying to corner the monkey or monkeys, um, in positions in the trees where they can get to them.

Joe Rogan 1:23:21 One of the things that they, uh, observed in the David Attenborough, um, capturing of this, uh, sort of behavior was that they will sort of ambush them. They will set up traps.

James Reed 1:23:33 Yeah. You know, there's, I think a lot of people sort of have different opinions about this and I think probably every hunt is different, and I think sometimes you might observe those things and then in your mind get a sense that, "Oh, this is how they must do it because during that hunt, he was over there and he was over there, and they appeared to do that." Um, in my experience, um, there didn't seem to be that sort of pattern of behavior. It was, it was not, it was not as organized as that actually-

Joe Rogan 1:24:10 Mm-hmm.

James Reed 1:24:11 ... when it came to, to those parts of the hunt. Also, it's, it's, it's a very difficult thing to observe and, and to film, so you really... Having said, we're, we're getting amazing details of their lives and, um, but there were some activities that they do, like a hunt, where really, you... I mean, you're looking through windows in, in the canopy and just like (imitates explosion) you see a chimp leg it across there and over there, and then suddenly someone's got the monkey. And ma- making sense of that, you know, I think scientifically, it's really hard. But from filmmaking point of view, you're, you're capturing moments and, and you can piece together what's happened there. But there's definitely things that haven't h- that you haven't seen, that have gone on behind trees or leaves or... So I think it's hard, it's hard to c- kind of know exactly how they do it.

Joe Rogan 1:25:04 Is there any concern while you're doing this that you're interfering in some sort of a way, or that you're gonna upset them? That you're getting in the way of the hunt or getting in the way of their natural behaviors?

James Reed 1:25:16 It's a, it's a constant consideration, like how... You know, the worst thing we could possibly do is to go in there and try and observe the sort of real world of the en- uh, of the Ngogo chimpanzees, and then find ourselves having an impact on that, being sort of-

Joe Rogan 1:25:34 Mm-hmm.

James Reed 1:25:34 ... participating in it.

Joe Rogan 1:25:35 Yeah.

James Reed 1:25:35 So that's not... That's no longer the real world of the chimpanzees. That's the world of the Ngogo chimps when they're sort of distracted or impacted by human observers, so that...You know, that would be, that would just ruin the whole point of it. So it's a, a constant consideration. Weirdly, and it does, I don't really have an explanation for it and I've not really heard one that, that works for me that oddly, apart from sort of acknowledging you, um, they just don't seem to be impacted by your presence at all. They pretty much ig- ignore you. And like, chimpanzees are so like spatially aware. Like they, they, they live in this three-dimensional forest world where they- they can just go from tree to tree, horizontal, vertical. They just ev- they're very aware of everything that's around them. You would assume in these chaotic moments that, you know, you might get in one's way or run into, and it never happens. And it's as if, but, but then again, you never see a chimpanzee run into a tree either. You know, they, they know where everything is and for some bizarre reason, they're, they're totally accepting of this sort of passive presence in the forest. These strange bipedal creatures that sort of follow and are close and sort of within observing them. And it's not like they, you know, they acknowledge, they acknowledge you. They know you're there. They're not just like, like I said earlier, you're not spying on them. You're, you're kind of part of it, but they're not interested in you.

Joe Rogan 1:27:21 Mm-hmm.

James Reed 1:27:22 It's strange. Like un- until you're there and you are in it, it's, it's, it's sort of an impossible thing to describe and it's a very difficult thing to understand until you are actually right there. And I think when, you know, when something's kicking off and there's a lot of like excitement and chaos within the group, if you haven't experienced that before, it's g- it's intimidating and you can't quite believe that you're not somehow gonna get swept up in it. But, but you don't at all.

Joe Rogan 1:27:54 Wow.

James Reed 1:27:54 And they, you know, there's been decades of this happening at Ngogo where they're just, they accept this sort of passive presence in the forest. I mean, it must be so weird. You're there when they get up, you know, and you follow them around all day and you know, when they take a shit, when they making friends with somebody, when they're doing anything that they're doing, you know, and you're just, you're there. But they, they appear not to mind at all. And it doesn't appear to impact their