Joe Rogan Experience #1992 - Oliver Stone

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast,…

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. OSOliver Stone0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music) Yeah, I, I have been fascinated by the subject for a long time and I'm very, very happy that you made this documentary. And it's a very good documentary, by the way.

   4. OSOliver Stone0:20

      Thank you.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:21

      Thank you for making it, and thank you for highlighting this very, very important issue that seems to have been really confused. And I'm, I'm really glad how you covered it in this, uh, documentary about Three Mile Island and Chernobyl and Fukushima. We have these ideas in our mind about the dangers of nuclear power, and I love the analogy that you made in the film about how driving a car is not scary, but it's dangerous. Flying in a plane feels scary, but it's far safer.

   6. OSOliver Stone0:55

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:56

      And this is a great analogy to nuclear power. When you went over the, the data, when you talked about the amount of deaths from coal every year, when you talk about the amount of deaths overall ever from nuclear, it's r- it's stunning.

   8. OSOliver Stone1:10

      It is.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:10

      It's stunning.

   10. OSOliver Stone1:11

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:11

       And then when you cut to... In the documentary you showed the anti-nuclear movement that happened after Three Mile Island.

   12. OSOliver Stone1:19

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:19

       And how crazy it was.

   14. OSOliver Stone1:21

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:21

       Uh, there's all these stars and celebrities, and they're doing concerts, "We've gotta stop nuclear power," and what a mess.

   16. OSOliver Stone1:29

       That happens on a... When, when a fad, I mean, becomes fashionable-

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:33

       Yeah.

   18. OSOliver Stone1:33

       ... then it was a very successful movement. You're talking about the negatives here.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:37

       Mm-hmm.

   20. OSOliver Stone1:37

       And the accidents and, uh, we, we cover all that in the film, which is called Nuclear Now. And the idea that was behind it was because I really was like you. I mean, I, I went along with those things in the '70s and the '80s because-

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:52

       Mm-hmm.

   22. OSOliver Stone1:52

       ... I didn't know better. I didn't... I wasn't educated. I w- I really wanted to know, what is nuclear power? I wanted to go back to the source. And you gotta go back to the beginning and you gotta go back to Marie Curie and Albert Einstein and World War II and all... How it could, how it got developed. This nuclear energy is a beautiful, incredible, almost a miracle that was given to us, that we have in Earth. It's all, it's in the earth, uranium, it's everywhere, the planet, the earth, the sun. And we, m- in a sense, uh, we took it like Prometheus in a way, kind of misinterpreted it, misused it, which is not... Which is kinda normal for, given the, what we do with natural things. World War II was happening just as the at- as the nuclear fission was being understood and that made the bomb. They made the bomb with it because there was a war on, and they, they rushed it and they did a, they did an amazing job, Oppenheimer down in, uh, the, the, in Los Alamos. But... And they got it, they were successful. But, uh, as you know, it was misunderstood at that point that nuclear energy was not nuclear bomb. In the contrary, it was pr- a bomb is very difficult to build, and it takes a lo- it takes years sometimes, it takes scientists and they have to enrich the plutonium and they have to work at it. There's all f- configurations in the bomb that don't exist in nuclear energy. So when people see a nuclear energy plant they, uh, subconsciously, they cross it with both war and they cross it with horror films that they've seen in the 1950s with radioactivity and monsters had come out of that. You know spider-

   23. JRJoe Rogan3:38

       Yeah.

   24. OSOliver Stone3:38

       ... the spider bites the, uh, man and he becomes Spider-Man, you know?

   25. JRJoe Rogan3:41

       The Hulk, yeah.

   26. OSOliver Stone3:41

       It's incredible the stuff that happens and it's all... And it's, Hollywood has done no favors to it, it's continued for years and years and years and then, of course, you add, uh, Three Mile Island. Uh, the film was coming out at the same time, uh, China Syndrome, eh, with Jane Fonda. It was a good film. I enjoyed it. (laughs) We all enjoyed it, but it really was hysterical and alarmist saying... And nothing happened at Three Mile Island except the reactor did melt down, but nobody get o- got hurt because the containment structure worked to keep it in, to keep it in. So there was no release of ra- radiation and, uh, they continued on. Silkwood was another one and then if you remember, uh, not too long ago there was the HBO thing, Chernobyl.

   27. JRJoe Rogan4:26

       Yeah.

   28. OSOliver Stone4:26

       Which was, uh, complete fictionalization of what happened at Chernobyl. So we went to Russia and we talked to the scientists there, and we wanted to know what happened at Chernobyl and we find out and it's in the film. And the same thing is true for Fukushima which is unbelievable because I've... When you go to the bottom of it, it's... I was astounded at the... To find out that there... No- nobody died there from radiation, not one Japanese.

   29. JRJoe Rogan4:52

       Yeah.

   30. OSOliver Stone4:52

       They checked the whole thing out and it's been done to death, but you hear about 15,000, 20,000 people died from the tsunami and the earthquake which was the biggest earthquake Japan ever had. I mean, really, we show the earthquake, we show the tsunami, the wave was 100 feet tall. Uh, there was a badly built wall, the wall was not a sea wall, it was could hold and the generators were flooded beneath, uh, the water and...
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   And compared to the…

   1. OSOliver Stone15:00

      each time. In f- in four, five years, it's way down. It tops to almost... If you c- I, I don't have all the figures, but you can see that it's, it's a ridiculous fear given... Compared to what? Given that climate change is so dangerous.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:15

      And compared to the deaths that are already occurring every year just from ewing- using the methods we have now, in, in comparison to the amount of people that have died from nuclear, it's r-

   3. OSOliver Stone15:25

      Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:25

      ... very, very small.

   5. OSOliver Stone15:27

      Well, the only people who have died from nuclear that we know of are at Chernobyl.

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:30

      Right.

   7. OSOliver Stone15:30

      There was 50 first responders who died in the actual, uh... They were the badly, badly protected. They were sent in by a corrupt and, and decaying Soviet government, and then they were hiding the fact that there was a leak. The radioactivity went all over Northern Europe. And still, that was als- it was not th- what we think it is. It's not like Hiroshima or-

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:55

      Right.

   9. OSOliver Stone15:55

      ... Nagasaki. It wasn't that enriched, uh, kind of radiation. It was a low level radiation that exists that went out there. And they went out, the UN went in, and the WHO went in, and it was really exhaustive what they did. And, uh, they came up with a number of about 4,000 possible deaths from cancer after Chernobyl. Now, since then, there's been another examination by another scientific organization that says that is even an, a high number. We don't really know 'cause people die from cancer, you know, naturally. So we don't really know how bad Chernobyl was, but nothing like what has been pre- what the environmentalists-

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:37

       Right.

   11. OSOliver Stone16:38

       ... say is the end of the world and-

   12. JRJoe Rogan16:39

       Or the HBO series.

   13. OSOliver Stone16:41

       Oh, the HBO was a disa- I mean, it was-

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:43

       I didn't see it, but I heard it was great.

   15. OSOliver Stone16:45

       Yeah, I mean-

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:45

       Great fiction.

   17. OSOliver Stone16:45

       ... it was great as tension, as tension and-

   18. JRJoe Rogan16:48

       Yeah.

   19. OSOliver Stone16:48

       ... all that. You know, I, I, I make movies, I know.

   20. JRJoe Rogan16:50

       (laughs)

   21. OSOliver Stone16:50

       You can make movies out of disasters, but-

   22. JRJoe Rogan16:52

       Yeah.

   23. OSOliver Stone16:52

       ... it's not fair.

   24. JRJoe Rogan16:53

       It's not fair. It's not fair-

   25. OSOliver Stone16:55

       Nuclear's never had one-

   26. JRJoe Rogan16:56

       ... for humanity.

   27. OSOliver Stone16:56

       ... proponent. Nobody in... That's what bothered me. Nobody-

   28. JRJoe Rogan16:58

       Right.

   29. OSOliver Stone16:59

       ... said, "It's a good thing," as opposed to, "It's this horrible beast."

   30. JRJoe Rogan17:04

       It's crazy that it's something like that that's right in front of our face. It's right-
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   No. They def- …

   1. JRJoe Rogan30:00

      Uh, that's not something that people marvel at.

   2. OSOliver Stone30:02

      No. They def-

   3. JRJoe Rogan30:03

      That you have a ship at sea that's powered-

   4. OSOliver Stone30:06

      No.

   5. JRJoe Rogan30:06

      ... entirely by nuclear power, and it can go for 50 years or whatever it is.

   6. OSOliver Stone30:10

      That's why we, we try to show that in the film. I mean, it's just a miracle.

   7. JRJoe Rogan30:13

      It's insane.

   8. OSOliver Stone30:14

      Uh-

   9. JRJoe Rogan30:14

      It's so much different than anything else. And if you just do it right, like they do with the submarines, or like they do-

   10. OSOliver Stone30:21

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan30:21

       ... with-

   12. OSOliver Stone30:22

       You need discipline, and you need to do it, and you need to redo it and do it and do it, so you standardize it. The United States never standardized it. Japan did. Korea did. They built one type of reactor, and they built it consistently. Just recently, uh, Korea built four, four heavy water reactors, uh, big ones, in, uh, UAR, the, uh, United Arab Republic. Four of them. Uh, 1.4 gigawatts each. A gigawatt's 1,000,000,000 watts. Uh, so it's 5., 5.6 gigawatts. That's fi- that's a huge amount-

   13. JRJoe Rogan30:55

       Yeah.

   14. OSOliver Stone30:55

       ... for the United Arab Republic. That'll cover a huge area.

   15. JRJoe Rogan30:58

       That's incredible.

   16. OSOliver Stone30:59

       And that's the kind of building you need to do, but you have to do it consistently.

   17. JRJoe Rogan31:03

       Didn't the phrase-

   18. OSOliver Stone31:04

       And by the-

   19. JRJoe Rogan31:05

       Oh.

   20. OSOliver Stone31:05

       Go ahead, please.

   21. JRJoe Rogan31:06

       Okay. No.

   22. OSOliver Stone31:06

       And by the way, you can, you can ship it too, you know? If you di- if you assembly line it, like in Korean shipyards or something, you can build it in a way that you, with SMRs, uh, parts, you can put the parts in and ship them like, like a Lego set-

   23. JRJoe Rogan31:21

       Hmm.

   24. OSOliver Stone31:21

       ... down, up and down the, the coastline of, uh, China or the coastline of, uh, America. Any, any country. That, Russians did that in Pevek, which is a Arctic outpost. They built, they sent a barge. The Greenpeace, of course, predicted it would be a nuclear Titanic, and it wasn't. It arrived in Pevek, and it set up, and it's working beautifully to this day. So SMRs are, are shippable, and they can be built in shipyards. They can be assembled by the thousands. There's no reason not to.

   25. JRJoe Rogan31:52

       Now-... what, what about if one of those things sinks?

   26. OSOliver Stone31:57

       Yeah, well, water ab- water absorbs it. It absorbs radiation.

   27. JRJoe Rogan32:01

       Well, so, like, what happens when... There have been nuclear submarines that have sunk, right?

   28. OSOliver Stone32:08

       Not th- Well, if they did, there's been no damage that I know of.

   29. JRJoe Rogan32:10

       Isn't the phrase, "Can neither confirm nor deny," doesn't that come from-

   30. OSOliver Stone32:15

       (laughs)
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Ah. Well, I can't…

   1. JRJoe Rogan45:00

      type of radiation, and it's also from direct contact through, through the, through this paint, with no protection at all.

   2. OSOliver Stone45:07

      Ah. Well, I can't comment on what I don't know, but certainly, uh-

   3. JRJoe Rogan45:10

      Yeah. No, I understand. But d-

   4. OSOliver Stone45:12

      ... uh, yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan45:12

      So there are some consequences that are negative that are associated with radiation, rightly.

   6. OSOliver Stone45:17

      Yes. You know, high-

   7. JRJoe Rogan45:17

      And this is one of them.

   8. OSOliver Stone45:18

      High levels of radiation will hurt and kill.

   9. JRJoe Rogan45:20

      Yeah.

   10. OSOliver Stone45:21

       And, and-

   11. JRJoe Rogan45:21

       Exposure to radiation.

   12. OSOliver Stone45:22

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan45:22

       I mean, is the reason why they make you put a lead thing over your junk when you get-

   14. OSOliver Stone45:26

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan45:26

       ... into an X-ray machine.

   16. OSOliver Stone45:27

       That's correct, and, uh-

   17. JRJoe Rogan45:28

       Yeah.

   18. OSOliver Stone45:29

       ... I went to a lot of that when I was, uh, at, visiting the plants in France, Russia, and here at Idaho, uh, National Laboratory. Uh, we talked to a lot of scientists, and people who handle it. Those people who know, know. They don't, they don't, uh, they don't freak out about it.

   19. JRJoe Rogan45:44

       Was this something, this, this subject that you, when you, when you decided to make a documentary about this, w- w- it, was it simply just because you had the information and you felt compelled that this is just not a story that's being told correctly?

   20. OSOliver Stone45:58

       No. I s- I s- I bo- I read a boo- I read a review, a book review in the, in The New York Times, of all things, in, about, uh, Joh- Joh- Joshua Goldstein's book with Steven Kvist, the Swedish, uh, nuclear scientist, and, uh, it was called Bright Future. I bought the book, read it. It's very practical and simple, and it goes into the truth, which is, this is all, there's been a lot of lies. And then I bought the book and made the movie with him. He gave me a lot of... I, I had to learn a lot. I had to travel a lot, and it was difficult. It was not an easy film to make. Uh, I wanted to make it understandable to a ninth grade level, you know?

   21. JRJoe Rogan46:36

       Yeah.

   22. OSOliver Stone46:36

       Trying to make it simple. I, I, I think it works at that level.

   23. JRJoe Rogan46:39

       Yeah, it absolutely does. Yeah. Definitely. Um, it's, um, it's just very important to do, and I'm really glad you did it 'cause it's, I've talked to so many intelligent people that share your perspective on this.

   24. OSOliver Stone46:51

       Good.

   25. JRJoe Rogan46:52

       But it's just not being discussed publicly enough.

   26. OSOliver Stone46:55

       Well-

   27. JRJoe Rogan46:56

       That it might have been our solution the whole time.

   28. OSOliver Stone46:59

       It was.

   29. JRJoe Rogan47:00

       Yeah.

   30. OSOliver Stone47:00

       It was, uh-
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   Yeah, it's about getting…

   1. OSOliver Stone1:00:00

      them.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:00

      Yeah, it's about getting access to your, you know, whatever you have, credit cards that are on it, and all the, the data that they can sell.

   3. OSOliver Stone1:00:08

      Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:08

      You know, I mean, they're selling data-

   5. OSOliver Stone1:00:10

      Uh.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:10

      ... no matter what anyway. It's the weirdest commodity that's ever existed, a thing that people didn't even know is worth anything.

   7. OSOliver Stone1:00:16

      Are you worried about us- losing your phone when people know you?

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:19

      Sure. Yeah, I worry about losing my phone. Yeah. I try not to. (laughs) But it's-

   9. OSOliver Stone1:00:22

      Well, you probably have an automatic shutoff on your account, right? So, so y- no one's gonna rip you off for American Express or-

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:00:27

       Right, of course.

   11. OSOliver Stone1:00:28

       ... credit card. We all-

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:00:29

       Yeah, but it's still ... It's very inconvenient, obviously. It sucks.

   13. OSOliver Stone1:00:32

       It's inconvenient, but it's-

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:00:33

       I use my phone to get in my car too.

   15. OSOliver Stone1:00:34

       ... it's, it's inconveni- but it's not dangerous. (laughs)

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:00:36

       Right, it's not dangerous. My phone, uh, operates my Tesla. I don't even have to have my key, just have to have my phone.

   17. OSOliver Stone1:00:43

       Your phone operates your Tesla? Great.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:00:44

       Yeah.

   19. OSOliver Stone1:00:45

       How do you do that even before you-

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:00:46

       Just, it knows that it's me, so the app knows that it's me. So, as ... If it's in my phone, and, uh, i- if the ... rather, the phone is in my pocket, and I walk towards the Tesla, the door's open.

   21. OSOliver Stone1:00:56

       Right.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:00:57

       And lets me in. It, like, knows it's me. Like I- I don't even have to have a key on me. It's like, "Hey, dude."

   23. OSOliver Stone1:01:01

       (laughs)

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:01:01

       I go, "I don't have my key." "Don't worry about it. We know it's you." But also, someone could take your phone, and without even unlocking it, they could just start driving your Tesla. That's true too, 'cause, you know, when you walk towards the car, it just goes off, even if your phone's not even unlocked. And that's not good.

   25. OSOliver Stone1:01:18

       Phew. That's-

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:01:18

       'Cause then if somebody gets your phone, then they get your car.

   27. OSOliver Stone1:01:20

       What makes you so smart, Joe?

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:01:22

       I'm not that smart.

   29. OSOliver Stone1:01:23

       Come on. Give me a break.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:01:24

       I am not.
6. 1:15:00 – 1:16:40

   Which one? …

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:15:00

      do is study all of the different methods that different apex predators used-... and, uh, and, and see like is there anything you can emulate as a human being. But this sh- shows some footage of octopuses, uh, y- y- camouflaging themselves to their environment. It's insane. It's alien. And this is what, what Remy said. He goes, "Dude, they're aliens." He goes, "You've never seen anything like it." I... H- and he had no idea until he filmed the show, I don't think, of, of how complex their ability to blend in is. But that's a octopus.

   2. OSOliver Stone1:15:32

      Which one?

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:15:32

      Right there. That thing-

   4. OSOliver Stone1:15:34

      Where?

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:15:34

      ... you're looking at. They make themselves look like plants. They make themselves look like coral. They make themselves look like rock. Watch when they get over it. Look. Look how he changes color depending on-

   6. OSOliver Stone1:15:46

      Is that the fish?

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:15:46

      ... what he's on. Yes. That's a octopus. Look at that.

   8. OSOliver Stone1:15:49

      Oh, yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:15:49

      Watch what he does. He blends in with the plant.

   10. OSOliver Stone1:15:55

       That's pretty wild.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:15:56

       And he blends in with the texture of the soil underneath the plant.

   12. OSOliver Stone1:16:01

       Is that because there's a predator around?

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:16:03

       No, because he's a predator.

   14. OSOliver Stone1:16:05

       Oh, I see.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:16:06

       So as these, these, uh, fish swim in looking to eat, this octopus is hiding. Like they have octopuses that, that kill sharks.

   16. OSOliver Stone1:16:15

       Jesus.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:16:15

       There's a, there's a video of a... Th- they had this... See, G- Google "octopus kills shark in aquarium."

   18. OSOliver Stone1:16:21

       Jesus Christ.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:16:22

       Yeah, they camouflage themselves to look like anything. Look at this. Watch how it does this.

   20. OSOliver Stone1:16:26

       Wow.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:16:27

       See. Just get some good footage of what they do when they get over things. But when they get over it, they've done it... Uh, like cuttlefish, which are also, uh, similar. I think they're called cephalopods. They, they do it where they've done them-

Episode duration: 1:49:12