Joe Rogan Experience #2002 - Amanda Feilding

1. 0:00 – 5:30

   Amanda Feilding’s early life: isolation, faith, and a childhood draw to mysticism

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drum music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (energetic music) Thank you very much for doing this, I really appreciate it.

   3. AFAmanda Feilding0:15

      Thank you.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      It's lovely to meet you, and, uh, I really, really appreciate your life's work. I mean, I think what you've done has been really remarkable, particularly because of the time period in which you embarked in it. I mean, you sort of got involved in psychedelics and psychedelic research at the very beginning of it and when it was extremely controversial and very difficult t- to do research.

   5. AFAmanda Feilding0:43

      Well, I actually got involved in it when it was incredible fun. And, um, I was incredibly lucky with my timing, I think.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:56

      Hmm.

   7. AFAmanda Feilding0:57

      Because I was very attracted to, um, the other side, if you like, the mystical, because I lived in this very, very isolated spot and one had nothing much to do but kind of mooch around in a beautiful place, have mystical experiences, dream of the future.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:19

      Is that your phone?

   9. AFAmanda Feilding1:20

      Yes.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:20

       There we go. (laughs)

   11. AFAmanda Feilding1:21

       Oh. (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:22

       When did you first get involved or even interested in, uh, what you would call mystical experiences? I'll let you sh-

   13. AFAmanda Feilding1:29

       Ah, sorry, sorry, sorry.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:31

       No worries, no worries.

   15. AFAmanda Feilding1:31

       Whoopsie. I don't know how to turn these things off.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:35

       Do you want me to turn it on mute for you?

   17. AFAmanda Feilding1:36

       Yes, please.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:37

       Okay. These wacky kids today and their devices. All right, here you go.

   19. AFAmanda Feilding1:42

       Oh, yes, sorry about that.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:43

       No worries. No worries at all. Um, so-

   21. AFAmanda Feilding1:47

       Uh, yes.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:48

       ... how old were you when you first got interested in...

   23. AFAmanda Feilding1:51

       Um, very young, I should say. Um, I came, uh, I had a kind of in the... I, I w- grew up in this very isolated place. Um, I was very, very close to my father, who came back from the war a diabetic, and he was a very eccentric person. And so from three, I was his carer. So I was like-

   24. JRJoe Rogan2:18

       Three years old?

   25. AFAmanda Feilding2:19

       Yeah, which was a lovely role. I mean, I was his little pet dog. I went everywhere with him. (laughs) I adored him, and he adored me. And so... And he was a very, um, out of the... He wasn't in normal society at all.

   26. JRJoe Rogan2:33

       How so?

   27. AFAmanda Feilding2:34

       He just wasn't. He was a eccentric and a charming, um, did his own thing.

   28. JRJoe Rogan2:41

       Hmm.

   29. AFAmanda Feilding2:42

       Artist, um, a farmer, but not really a farmer. He couldn't bear really farming, but, um, yeah. Anyway, so, um, and I suppose spiritually, I had three... my mother was a Catholic, so I grew up a Catholic. And then he was whatever agnostic is. Yes, just nothing except a thinker. And, um, then his best friend, who was his kind of... he picked up as, um, he... the person who did all his work when he was at university called Bertie, um, was... became a Buddhist monk, a rather famous Buddhist monk. But... So he was a big influence in the absence 'cause he was my godfather. And so I had these three influences. And so I kind of dreamt of doing magic, mystical things in the world.

   30. JRJoe Rogan3:36

       Hmm.
2. 5:30 – 9:23

   Leaving the convent school and self-education: Buddhism, incense, and the ‘psychedelic’ roots of ritual

   1. AFAmanda Feilding5:30

      ... pig, pigs, cows, all of that sort of thing. And, um, then one point I decided I wanted to leave home and I went to a boarding school, which was a terrible mistake, and, um, a convent. And actually I won the Sound... when I was 16, won the Sound's Prizes. I was quite clever, but I hated it and lived outside the boundaries of the school all the time. And then I wanted books on Buddhism 'cause I... for my prize.... and the nuns all said, "No, no, we can't give you books on Buddhism." And so (laughs) I said, "All right. I'll, I'll, I'll leave, thanks very much, and educate myself," which is what I did. I left school at 16.

   2. JRJoe Rogan6:16

      Really?

   3. AFAmanda Feilding6:17

      And, um-

   4. JRJoe Rogan6:18

      And it was because they wouldn't allow you to study Buddhism?

   5. AFAmanda Feilding6:20

      Yeah. I, uh...

   6. JRJoe Rogan6:21

      Yeah.

   7. AFAmanda Feilding6:21

      That, that was what I chose to study and they wouldn't, so I said thanks.

   8. JRJoe Rogan6:25

      In the original days of the church, the incense, what they would walk down the aisle with-

   9. AFAmanda Feilding6:30

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan6:30

       ... that was cannabis?

   11. AFAmanda Feilding6:31

       That, that was beautiful.

   12. JRJoe Rogan6:32

       Yeah.

   13. AFAmanda Feilding6:33

       I mean, the one thing I loved about that convent, there was a... In the chapel, in, uh, they had evensong, and this Italian nun with the voice of an angel, and it really... With the incense-

   14. JRJoe Rogan6:46

       Mm.

   15. AFAmanda Feilding6:46

       ... took one into a mystical space.

   16. JRJoe Rogan6:49

       Yeah.

   17. AFAmanda Feilding6:50

       And that was very special. That was the high point of it.

   18. JRJoe Rogan6:52

       They used to use cannabis, and then the host... What did the host used to be?

   19. AFAmanda Feilding6:56

       The host, I mean, obviously, originally, it was a psychedelic.

   20. JRJoe Rogan7:01

       Yes.

   21. AFAmanda Feilding7:02

       Um...

   22. JRJoe Rogan7:02

       Do we know what psychedelic?

   23. AFAmanda Feilding7:05

       Um, I think different places had different ones, but kind of based on mushroom or ergot or-

   24. JRJoe Rogan7:13

       Hmm.

   25. AFAmanda Feilding7:13

       ... those sort of things, funnily enough.

   26. JRJoe Rogan7:14

       Mm-hmm.

   27. AFAmanda Feilding7:15

       I'm rather keen on making sacred hosts. Um, I, I recently was inv- involved in that. Anyway, that's a different story.

   28. JRJoe Rogan7:24

       The... But that... I would love to hear that story.

   29. AFAmanda Feilding7:26

       (laughs)

   30. JRJoe Rogan7:26

       You make sacred hosts?
3. 9:23 – 12:27

   First cannabis at 16 and Oxford tutoring in comparative religion—plus early debate on drug vs endogenous mysticism

   1. JRJoe Rogan9:23

      So when you were first experiencing these things, like what year are we talking about when you first got ex- excited about these things?

   2. AFAmanda Feilding9:31

      Um, let me just think for a moment. Um, well, I first smoked cannabis when I was 16, and funny enough, the first time I smoked it, Ray Charles was playing.

   3. JRJoe Rogan9:46

      Oh, wow.

   4. AFAmanda Feilding9:47

      And I... Ah, I felt this is paradise.

   5. JRJoe Rogan9:50

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   6. AFAmanda Feilding9:51

      (laughs) And I've, I've bet a hun- millions of people had Ray Charles on our first sounding of, um, cannabis. But it was wonderful.

   7. JRJoe Rogan10:01

      It's amazing what it does to music.

   8. AFAmanda Feilding10:03

      Yeah, yeah. So I was, um, 16, which was, uh, um, I was born in '43. So I know when that was. Um, um, anyway, that's when I started smoking cannabis and, um, it was... I was at Oxford at that point with a very interesting group of, um... They were older than the other students 'cause they'd been in Korea, so they were much better educated and they were smokers, and, um, introduced me to a lot of wonderful books, um, like Against Nature and, um, Le Trou Blanc, and well, rather wonderful reading material.

   9. JRJoe Rogan10:44

      Mm-hmm.

   10. AFAmanda Feilding10:44

       And it was a very creative period. And at that point, as I'd left school by then, I had somehow got, um, the world's leading, um, expert, like, um, uh, what was the American one? Can't remember. Anyway, on, um, comparative religions and mysticism, someone called Professor Zaehner who was in All Souls in Oxford and wrote a book called, um, Mysticism, Sacred and Profane.

   11. JRJoe Rogan11:15

       Mm-hmm.

   12. AFAmanda Feilding11:16

       And he became my tutor. So I went and saw him twice a week which was a very kind of awkward, um (laughs) , meeting. So, um, um, 'cause I was very shy and he was very shy and it was in All Souls.

   13. JRJoe Rogan11:33

       (laughs)

   14. AFAmanda Feilding11:33

       (laughs) . And we both sat there cuddling the cats kind of thing. And then finally, I decided the best way forward was to bring my very, very handsome, um, cousin, who was a student at Oxford, 'cause he was gay, and that kind of warmed-

   15. JRJoe Rogan11:47

       Loosened everybody up?

   16. AFAmanda Feilding11:48

       Yeah, yeah. (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan11:49

       Ah, very smart.

   18. AFAmanda Feilding11:50

       And then it became very-

   19. JRJoe Rogan11:51

       A hunter trap.

   20. AFAmanda Feilding11:51

       ... friendly and fun.

   21. JRJoe Rogan11:53

       Yeah.

   22. AFAmanda Feilding11:53

       And, but anyway, he'd written this book, which I actually didn't agree with, which was saying, um, that psychedelics, um, what was it? Mysticism is sacred and profane.... and he was the Catholic (inaudible) actually. And he thought that he'd had one experience with mescaline, I think it was, and not liked it-

   23. JRJoe Rogan12:12

       Hmm.

   24. AFAmanda Feilding12:13

       ... and thought that they were a very different bracket to the experience you get through an endogenous mystical experience.

   25. JRJoe Rogan12:19

       Interesting.

   26. AFAmanda Feilding12:20

       Which I don't actually think is necessary. I think they're the same experience, but obviously with different qualities.

4. 12:27 – 22:12

   Ego boundaries, language, and the ‘psychedelic age’: a theory of blood flow, upright posture, and cognition

   1. JRJoe Rogan12:27

      I've, I've heard you say that you believe that what psychedelics do is make the mind more fertile for these experiences.

   2. AFAmanda Feilding12:34

      Yes.

   3. JRJoe Rogan12:34

      Is that a good way of putting it?

   4. AFAmanda Feilding12:35

      Yes. That's exactly what I think. I think you're at that level where the ego's control has dissolved to some degree, and so it's like fertile gr- ground. And so if you've, whatever, pre-trained, or if you're ready for a mystical experience, you're more likely to have it in that experience-

   5. JRJoe Rogan12:58

      Mm-hmm.

   6. AFAmanda Feilding12:58

      ... in that state of mind.

   7. JRJoe Rogan12:59

      So, the mind is actually restricting us in many ways through the ego from having these experiences.

   8. AFAmanda Feilding13:05

      Yes. I think so. (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan13:06

      And what psychedelics do is release those boundaries.

   10. AFAmanda Feilding13:10

       Yes. I think that due to the, um, evolution of man, uh, homo- homo sapiens, and our taking, the ape taking the upright position... This is a theory I was introduced to in 1966. And actually, I think a lot of the details are probably wrong, but in concept I think it's true, which is, um, the ape standing upright. One thing people haven't taken into account is obviously there are hundreds of assets of standing upright. You free your hands, you run faster, you see further, all of that. But in the upright position, gravity is against the blood in the brain because in the brain, there are two-

   11. JRJoe Rogan14:01

       Hmm.

   12. AFAmanda Feilding14:01

       ... fluid volumes, blood and cerebral spinal fluid, which is water basically, which is made in the brain itself. So it has kind of squatter's rights in the brain. So, um, when you're in the upright position, gravity is pulling the blood down. So, I think probably with the upright position, we lost a small proportion of our blood supply. I mean, some animals, if you tie them upright, a dog for instance, if it's tied up so it can't get down, it will start howling and go mad because it hasn't got the valves to keep the blood up.

   13. JRJoe Rogan14:45

       Hmm.

   14. AFAmanda Feilding14:46

       And we've obviously got a certain amount, but maybe we lost some blood at that upright position. And as a compensation for that loss, I think we developed an internal mechanism more than any other animal has, um, done it, which is to direct the blood where it most needs to go. Obviously, all animals do that. They have the power to send the blood where it's most important to survival or whatever. And I think that through the use of the conditioned sound, the word, we learned to control that process more than any other animal.

   15. JRJoe Rogan15:29

       Hmm.

   16. AFAmanda Feilding15:30

       And over the millennia, we kind of built up our power to do that. So, I think that's the secret of why humans, you know, which is a talking, upright talking ape, got control of the whole game, because of our creation of language which enabled us to do all these incredible things we do.

   17. JRJoe Rogan15:53

       Yes.

   18. AFAmanda Feilding15:53

       But it also has a disadvantage, that our basic state is slightly low in blood in the dominant organ.

   19. JRJoe Rogan16:06

       Hmm.

   20. AFAmanda Feilding16:07

       So we have to keep this str- this mechanism of tight control in where the blood is distributed, and that has evolved with the ego, which is essential. I mean, we wouldn't survive without the ego to kind of, um, direct the blood where it's most needed. Um, people who lose their ego, and in the '60s when people took large doses of LSD, as it was then, every day, sometimes they lost their ego. They flipped out.

   21. JRJoe Rogan16:42

       Mm-hmm.

   22. AFAmanda Feilding16:43

       And there was one occasion of someone we knew who was in Ibiza, and he'd flipped out and he put the key in his, the lock to open the door, someone to say goodnight to him. He put the key in the lock and left him. And then in the morning, he was still there with the key in the door because the head hadn't told him, "Turn the key to open the door." (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan17:08

       (laughs)

   24. AFAmanda Feilding17:08

       So there. (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan17:09

       Wow.

   26. AFAmanda Feilding17:09

       So we need the words to keep us, you know...

   27. JRJoe Rogan17:12

       Yes.

   28. AFAmanda Feilding17:13

       ... under control.

   29. JRJoe Rogan17:14

       Yeah.

   30. AFAmanda Feilding17:15

       So, it, the words have made us what we are, this incredible animal who can, um, you know, have a nuclear war if we want or know all the atoms in the body, all of those brilliant things we do, which is amazing, but we're also obviously a very deeply faulted animal at some point. We're, um, you know, neurotic, psychotic, psycho- you know...
5. 22:12 – 26:47

   Ancient art and mysteries: Chauvet cave, Eleusis, and tracing altered states through culture

   1. AFAmanda Feilding22:12

      And at the earliest, um, demonstrations of what we've got, of the earliest demonstrations of, um, human culture, say the caves in Chauvet. Do you know them?

   2. JRJoe Rogan22:26

      Yes.

   3. AFAmanda Feilding22:26

      Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan22:27

      Yeah.

   5. AFAmanda Feilding22:27

      Which I-

   6. JRJoe Rogan22:28

      Amazing.

   7. AFAmanda Feilding22:28

      ... I think they've never been bettered. I mean, that, that artwork, the brushstrokes-

   8. JRJoe Rogan22:33

      It's incredible.

   9. AFAmanda Feilding22:33

      ... of those animals.

   10. JRJoe Rogan22:34

       Yeah.

   11. AFAmanda Feilding22:34

       They're alive. You can see the movement. No one ever did it better.

   12. JRJoe Rogan22:38

       And it's like 30-something thousand-

   13. AFAmanda Feilding22:40

       Thir-

   14. JRJoe Rogan22:40

       ... years old?

   15. AFAmanda Feilding22:40

       Exactly. 35, 40-

   16. JRJoe Rogan22:42

       Mm.

   17. AFAmanda Feilding22:42

       Something around there.

   18. JRJoe Rogan22:43

       Wow.

   19. AFAmanda Feilding22:43

       So the... I can tell because I... um, some respect as an artist. I know those strokes.

   20. JRJoe Rogan22:51

       Well, see if... Pull up some of those images, Jamie, 'cause some of those-

   21. AFAmanda Feilding22:54

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan22:54

       ... images are... There, here we go.

   23. AFAmanda Feilding22:54

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan22:55

       Amazing stuff.

   25. AFAmanda Feilding22:55

       They're just incredible, aren't they?

   26. JRJoe Rogan22:57

       Yeah.

   27. AFAmanda Feilding22:58

       The movement of the animals-

   28. JRJoe Rogan22:59

       Yeah, how they caught-

   29. AFAmanda Feilding23:00

       ... the feeling in them.

   30. JRJoe Rogan23:00

       Yeah.
6. 26:47 – 32:43

   Drug prohibition’s ‘lost decades’ and the strategy to restart science: Beckley Foundation and early imaging studies

   1. JRJoe Rogan26:47

      Yeah, that was a giant problem after 1970, correct?

   2. AFAmanda Feilding26:50

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan26:51

      Like, after the sweeping psychedelic act where they made everything Schedule 1, psilocybin-

   4. AFAmanda Feilding26:56

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan26:56

      ... mescaline, everything. And when they did that, they, they... not only did they ruin the possibility of having those experiences for so many people because it was forbidden-

   6. AFAmanda Feilding27:07

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan27:07

      ... because it was very dangerous, you could get arrested-

   8. AFAmanda Feilding27:09

      Yeah. Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan27:09

      ... but also, it stopped all the research.

   10. AFAmanda Feilding27:11

       Yes. Absolutely. For 50... it was 50, 60, 70 lost years, which is a criminal thing, actually.

   11. JRJoe Rogan27:19

       Yeah.

   12. AFAmanda Feilding27:19

       And the untold suffering of the millions of people who went to prison, usually from minorities-

   13. JRJoe Rogan27:27

       Yes.

   14. AFAmanda Feilding27:28

       ... and had their r- lives ruined by a record-

   15. JRJoe Rogan27:31

       Mm-hmm.

   16. AFAmanda Feilding27:31

       ... for maybe having th- uh, j- uh, being caught for a joint three times or whatever.

   17. JRJoe Rogan27:36

       Right.

   18. AFAmanda Feilding27:36

       I mean, it is horrific what happened.

   19. JRJoe Rogan27:39

       It's horrific. Well, there's people in jail right now for that-

   20. AFAmanda Feilding27:41

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan27:41

       ... in this country, which is insane.

   22. AFAmanda Feilding27:43

       It's insane. And, I mean, I started fighting that back whenever, when I started the Beckley Foundation. I wa- I saw that in order to do research, one had to change the drug policies, and the two went hand in hand because doing the research would help change the drug policies. And in order to do the research, you had to change the policies. And, I mean, it was a bit of a catch-22, 'cause until you've done the research, you can't do it, if you see what I mean.

   23. JRJoe Rogan28:12

       Hmm. Right.

   24. AFAmanda Feilding28:13

       'Cause it... they make it so difficult to do.

   25. JRJoe Rogan28:15

       Well, I think what MAPS has done, which is genius, is, um, their work with MDMA and soldiers and soldiers having PTSD-

   26. AFAmanda Feilding28:22

       Absolutely.

   27. JRJoe Rogan28:23

       ... because-

   28. AFAmanda Feilding28:24

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan28:24

       ... the general con- uh, I mean, when you think of soldiers and you think of people in the military, you generally think of people who are right-wing, who, uh, have more authoritarian leanings.

   30. AFAmanda Feilding28:34

       Yes.
7. 32:43 – 38:23

   Microdosing and neurodegenerative promise: Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, autism, and real-world anecdotes

   1. AFAmanda Feilding32:43

      That now suddenly the psychedelics are at the center of this new approach to healing. And I think the healing of psychedelics goes much, much farther than what we've touched on so far, which is, um, the psychologically-based conditions. I, I think it can be very, very useful in different doses 'cause what is so wonderful about psychedelics is they have different, totally different effects in the different dose.

   2. JRJoe Rogan33:17

      Right.

   3. AFAmanda Feilding33:19

      And at the, um, mini/micro dose, um, I, I'm beginning to have evidence and I'm just starting a study which shows amazing potential results of micro dose for Alzheimer's.

   4. JRJoe Rogan33:37

      Really?

   5. AFAmanda Feilding33:38

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan33:38

      Interesting.

   7. AFAmanda Feilding33:40

      Absolutely amazing, remarkable.

   8. JRJoe Rogan33:42

      Really?

   9. AFAmanda Feilding33:42

      Yeah. And-

   10. JRJoe Rogan33:43

       I was watching a video yesterday on cannabis and Parkinson's.

   11. AFAmanda Feilding33:47

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan33:47

       It was incredible.

   13. AFAmanda Feilding33:48

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan33:49

       There was a gentleman who had horrible loss of control of his body and this shaking.

   15. AFAmanda Feilding33:54

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JRJoe Rogan33:54

       And they gave him-

   17. AFAmanda Feilding33:55

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan33:55

       ... cannabis oil.

   19. AFAmanda Feilding33:56

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan33:57

       And he put it under his tongue and a few minutes later he's lying back on the couch and then he holds his hands out and his hands are-

   21. AFAmanda Feilding34:03

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan34:03

       ... dead straight. I'm like, "This is extraordinary."

   23. AFAmanda Feilding34:05

       Wonderful. Extraordinary. And my, um, partner before who, um, um, is the father of my children, he got Parkinson's, so I was very worried and very fond of him. S- mild Parkinson's, but still it was Parkinson's. And so I'd heard how, and I've studied it, but how micro dosing ibogaine-

   24. JRJoe Rogan34:28

       Hmm.

   25. AFAmanda Feilding34:28

       ... is very good for, um, m- minimizing. So I'm wanting to do, I'm setting up a research into that.

   26. JRJoe Rogan34:38

       Interesting.

   27. AFAmanda Feilding34:39

       You know, I think a- and I think also-

   28. JRJoe Rogan34:40

       Yeah, this is the gentleman right here. This is exactly the video that I saw.

   29. AFAmanda Feilding34:43

       Oh yes. Oh, yes.

   30. JRJoe Rogan34:43

       So this guy has-
8. 38:23 – 54:07

   Mechanisms and ‘brain energy’: vasoconstriction hypothesis, connectivity maps, and discipline in altered states

   1. AFAmanda Feilding38:23

      are the mechanisms underlying that makes, um, LSD and a- associated compounds have the effect it has? And obviously, then, there was no brain imaging. It was very difficult to see inside the brain. One could only, uh, theorize about it, hypothe- make hypotheses.

   2. JRJoe Rogan38:44

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AFAmanda Feilding38:45

      And so this, um, Dutch scientist, who I had this long relationship with, had, um, this hypothesis that it, um, constricts, it's a vasoconstrictor, constricting the veins so blood comes into the capillaries, can't get out, the capillaries blow up and squeeze out the cerebral spinal fluid, and then slowly over the, uh, hours, gravity, um, pulls the blood down again, so-

   4. JRJoe Rogan39:19

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AFAmanda Feilding39:19

      That's, um-

   6. JRJoe Rogan39:21

      That's the theory.

   7. AFAmanda Feilding39:22

      Yeah, and you go back to normal. But during that period of more blood in the brain, you have more energy. Now, I'm looking into, now, how does it make more energy apart from providing more glucose and oxygen? And I've got a very, very interesting, something which is coming up which I'll tell you on my next talk about it.

   8. JRJoe Rogan39:42

      Okay. (laughs)

   9. AFAmanda Feilding39:43

      (laughs) But I, I'm very excited because, uh, I think people, anyone you talk to would say that the psychedelics, or indeed cannabis, they all work on the same direction. I think they all, cannabis and the psychedelics have the same underlying mechanisms but at different levels of, um, I think the constrictions.

   10. JRJoe Rogan40:05

       Yeah.

   11. AFAmanda Feilding40:05

       Uh, the psychedelics are much stronger 'cause you obviously get much higher, you can on a psychedelic. But they're going in the same direction. And that's what the endogenously, a lot of, uh, I'd love to know more about that and I will if I've got time to do that study into the underlying, um, you know, um, serotonin, dopamine, all, all the different enzymes, um, hormones in the body which can do these things endogenously.

   12. JRJoe Rogan40:36

       Yeah.

   13. AFAmanda Feilding40:37

       I me- I mean, we know the saints got top high.

   14. JRJoe Rogan40:40

       Mm-hmm.

   15. AFAmanda Feilding40:40

       Saint Theresa, her description of her, um, orgasm with God is just like a description of a psychedelic trip-

   16. JRJoe Rogan40:49

       Yes.

   17. AFAmanda Feilding40:49

       ... kind of thing. So it's the same experience but either got endogenously or through other ways.

   18. JRJoe Rogan40:56

       I think once, one of the things that's very interesting about cannabis too is the difference between eating it-

   19. AFAmanda Feilding41:01

       Yes.

   20. JRJoe Rogan41:02

       ... and, and when your, your body's producing 11-hydroxy metabolite from the eating of it, uh, it can produce a very powerful psychedelic experience.

   21. AFAmanda Feilding41:11

       Absolutely.

   22. JRJoe Rogan41:12

       And, um, my experiences with it where it's been very profound are with the sensory deprivation tank.

   23. AFAmanda Feilding41:18

       Yes.

   24. JRJoe Rogan41:19

       I have a sensory deprivation tank, and I do it with-

   25. AFAmanda Feilding41:23

       Right.

   26. JRJoe Rogan41:23

       ... edible marijuana.

   27. AFAmanda Feilding41:24

       Right. Right.

   28. JRJoe Rogan41:25

       And it's incredible.

   29. AFAmanda Feilding41:25

       Right. And I think there's some, I've got a friend who grows marijuana, and I think, I'm very interested in the, um, he always wants me to work with one of the breeds he breeds, because it's, 'tis like a psychedelic.

   30. JRJoe Rogan41:40

       Mm-hmm.
9. 54:07 – 1:08:22

   Trepanation: history, theory, and why Amanda drilled her own skull

   1. JRJoe Rogan54:07

      We should explain trepanation to people 'cause, uh, trepanation is a very ancient practice of drilling holes in, uh, in one's head. And you decided to do... You, you were in your 20s when you did this?

   2. AFAmanda Feilding54:21

      Um, yes.

   3. JRJoe Rogan54:22

      And what, what influenced you to do that? Like, what was the motivation?

   4. AFAmanda Feilding54:27

      Um, well, it was the theory of it which induced me to do it. And in a way, I prefer not, um, talking too much about it, not because I'm not in favor of researching it, but because I haven't done the research.

   5. JRJoe Rogan54:44

      Mm-hmm.

   6. AFAmanda Feilding54:44

      So I can't say, "Look, this is..."... been proven by-

   7. NANarrator54:49

      Right.

   8. AFAmanda Feilding54:49

      ... science, which until then, people didn't believe psy- uh, psychedelics worked.

   9. NANarrator54:54

      Right.

   10. AFAmanda Feilding54:54

       They would say, "That's um, placebo, fancy." Only the, when you sh- show in science then it, it worked. But anyway, the hypothesis is that when we're born, as we all know, there's the fontanelle, which are holes, which close soon, and you can see the pulsation in the s- f- fontanelle hole of the baby. You can see very much pulsing.

   11. NANarrator55:19

       Mm-hmm.

   12. AFAmanda Feilding55:21

       And then the holes close, but the sutures, the bones, are quite flexible, so there's still the p- full pulsation, the full systolic pulsation is happening. Then as you grow and the bones grow together, slowly, slowly, some of the pulsation is suppressed because it hasn't got the room to ex-

   13. NANarrator55:46

       Mm-hmm.

   14. AFAmanda Feilding55:47

       So, the hypothesis of trepanation, which has been done now, the earliest skull found is, funny enough, the archeologists at Chauvet, um, told me, um, near Chauvet they found a trepanned skull, um, of 25,000 years old.

   15. NANarrator56:10

       Mm.

   16. AFAmanda Feilding56:10

       And you can see if the person lived after the trepanation-

   17. NANarrator56:14

       As the bone grows.

   18. AFAmanda Feilding56:15

       Goes, yes-

   19. NANarrator56:15

       Yeah.

   20. AFAmanda Feilding56:15

       ... and softens.

   21. NANarrator56:17

       Mm-hmm.

   22. AFAmanda Feilding56:17

       So that's kind of, I think it... I haven't been studying it for the last 20, th- years because I've been onto psychedelics too much.

   23. NANarrator56:24

       Right.

   24. AFAmanda Feilding56:24

       But I long to because it's very close to what I want to do.

   25. NANarrator56:27

       Do we know the origins of trepanation? Do we know that how it was-

   26. AFAmanda Feilding56:32

       Uh, we know-

   27. NANarrator56:32

       ... initiated?

   28. AFAmanda Feilding56:32

       ... it's the oldest operation in the world, that it's done all around the world. It's very much associated with, um, r- religion, mysticism, um, very orphaned skulls which are trepanned have a special burial. They're buried in a, in a pot or with silk wound, showing that they were either priest caste or royal caste or something.

   29. NANarrator57:02

       Mm-hmm.

   30. AFAmanda Feilding57:02

       Um, but they're very present in every culture, if you're interested. Not very present, but-
10. 1:08:22 – 1:40:13

    From LSD ‘work culture’ to smoking cessation science: intention, addiction, and early therapeutic studies

    1. AFAmanda Feilding1:08:22

       demanding activity, you use a lot of glucose and the sugar level falls. Therefore, you need to keep the sugar level normal by increasing the intake. And actually, all those years before it was legal, um, we lived on LSD. When I say, "Lived," I meant on big doses every day. We were-

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:08:47

       (laughs)

    3. AFAmanda Feilding1:08:49

       (laughs) Yeah. We, we really lived, and I psychoanalyzed myself, on, myself as doctor and patient.

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:08:57

       Mm-hmm.

    5. AFAmanda Feilding1:08:57

       And I read the whole of whatever, Freud, Reik-

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:09:01

       Did you m- make notes?

    7. AFAmanda Feilding1:09:02

       ... Nietzsche.

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:09:02

       Did you take a journal during that time?

    9. AFAmanda Feilding1:09:04

       Not a journal, but I did diagrams of, uh, you know.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:09:07

        Mm-hmm.

    11. AFAmanda Feilding1:09:08

        Yeah, and I watched myself. I overcame, for instance, um, I, I was very tall as a child and t- rather kind of hated being taller than everyone else. So at about 13, I started smoking, um, c- cigarettes behind the bushes. So I was pretty addicted by the time I met Bart when I was 22 or 23. I can't remember. I was pretty addicted and he said what a horrible habit it is, was mine, smoking. So then I said, "Well, I'll give up." And so I took a trip of LSD with the intention, "I'll stop. It's a horrible habit."

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:09:48

        Mm-hmm.

    13. AFAmanda Feilding1:09:49

        "Just give it up," and I never smoked another cigarette. And so-

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:09:54

        Do you remember when you did that, when you took the LSD with the intention of giving up cigarettes?

    15. AFAmanda Feilding1:09:59

        Yeah.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:09:59

        Do, do you remember what, what happened to you? Do you remember?

    17. AFAmanda Feilding1:10:02

        Yeah, I do.

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:10:03

        What was it like?

    19. AFAmanda Feilding1:10:03

        I re- I, I remember smoking a cigarette during the trip and thinking, "Yuck, this is disgusting." I remember when I was a child, young child smoking, made one feel a bit sick-

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:10:14

        Hmm.

    21. AFAmanda Feilding1:10:14

        ... and one had to repress the feeling-

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:10:16

        Yeah.

    23. AFAmanda Feilding1:10:16

        ... of sickness. And then I realized, "Gosh, it makes me feel sick."

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:10:19

        Yeah.

    25. AFAmanda Feilding1:10:20

        And then, "Ugh. The smell is horrible."

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:10:21

        Well, it is making you sick. Yeah.

    27. AFAmanda Feilding1:10:23

        Yeah, yeah. So I gave up. And 40 years later or whenever, when I was talking to Roland Gifford, funnily enough, I had, I think it was $10,000 to, to do a research program, so I went did, um, Roland at that time, said, "I've got this." He said, "Oh, what would you like to do? What would you suggest?" So I said, "Well, what about overcoming nicotine addiction? I did that with LSD. We could do it with psilocybin try." And that was the basis of the-

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:10:57

        Hmm.

    29. AFAmanda Feilding1:10:58

        ... um, study, which is, uh, I mean, I remember the first, for the first lot, it was 80% success rate. Uh, no, yeah, 80% success rate. I don't know what it is now.

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:11:09

        It's grown.
11. 1:37:27 – 1:55:25

    Culture, creativity, and the 1960s: ‘turn on and drop in,’ design trends, and psychedelics as a productivity tool

    1. AFAmanda Feilding1:37:27

       And that's why I rather like the phrase, "The-... the psychedelic age-

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:37:35

       Mm.

    3. AFAmanda Feilding1:37:35

       ... in the sense, I don't mean everyone taking psychedelics and having a party, I mean learning the art of how do you control your level of consciousness and then how do you control that level so you can keep your concentration.

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:37:51

       Mm.

    5. AFAmanda Feilding1:37:52

       I don't go and (inaudible) 　 leery, you know, turn on and then I drop out.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:37:57

       Yeah.

    7. AFAmanda Feilding1:37:57

       I say, turn on and drop in.

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:37:59

       Yes.

    9. AFAmanda Feilding1:38:00

       You know? Do. Be creative.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:38:02

        Yeah, that was the problem with Leary, that his philosophy and what he was espousing to people was, it, it, people felt like it was dangerous to civilization, that people were gonna ruin their lives, they were gonna drop out, and they were gonna become part of these hippy communes and-

    11. AFAmanda Feilding1:38:18

        Yes. It was all bad publicity.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:38:21

        Mm-hmm.

    13. AFAmanda Feilding1:38:22

        Badly played. Um, yeah, and in those early years, in the, whatever, mid '60s, when I started taking psychedelics seriously, we took it for working. I mean, the Stones would be playing a mile, half a mile away from our flat where I lived and still live in London. We didn't bother to go them because we were having such fun doing our work, which was studying the brain, on acid.

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:38:52

        Mm.

    15. AFAmanda Feilding1:38:53

        Do you know, who, who gives... why bother? (laughs) I mean...

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:38:57

        (laughs)

    17. AFAmanda Feilding1:38:57

        You know? And-

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:38:59

        Yeah.

    19. AFAmanda Feilding1:39:00

        Um, so I think that the use... I'm sure you and, yes, and other people know how incredibly inspiring for work the use of psychedelics can be.

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:39:12

        Yes.

    21. AFAmanda Feilding1:39:13

        You can see things you never saw before, you see, because suddenly having more of the brain simultaneously active as our images showed, the two circuits, you can see this is the ordinary brain, this is the brain on, uh, psychedelics. I've got those beautiful things came from our study. Um, the circuits. Do you know the ones? I've- I've got a picture of it in my bag. Um, you can see the difference in the brain.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:39:40

        Mm-hmm.

    23. AFAmanda Feilding1:39:42

        Um, and that can be used for whatever you're doing, for whatever-

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:39:47

        Yeah.

    25. AFAmanda Feilding1:39:48

        ... creative, thoughtful process, you suddenly got all that extra brain power-

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:39:54

        Yes.

    27. AFAmanda Feilding1:39:54

        ... to dedicate towards what you feel passionate about.

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:39:58

        It's a superpower for stand-up comedy.

    29. AFAmanda Feilding1:40:00

        Yeah. Exa-

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:40:00

        For stand-up comedy-

Episode duration: 2:35:45