Joe Rogan Experience #2002 - Amanda Feilding

1. 0:00 – 1:48

   Welcoming Amanda Feilding and framing her psychedelic legacy

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drum music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (energetic music) Thank you very much for doing this, I really appreciate it.

   3. AFAmanda Feilding0:15

      Thank you.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      It's lovely to meet you, and, uh, I really, really appreciate your life's work. I mean, I think what you've done has been really remarkable, particularly because of the time period in which you embarked in it. I mean, you sort of got involved in psychedelics and psychedelic research at the very beginning of it and when it was extremely controversial and very difficult t- to do research.

   5. AFAmanda Feilding0:43

      Well, I actually got involved in it when it was incredible fun. And, um, I was incredibly lucky with my timing, I think.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:56

      Hmm.

   7. AFAmanda Feilding0:57

      Because I was very attracted to, um, the other side, if you like, the mystical, because I lived in this very, very isolated spot and one had nothing much to do but kind of mooch around in a beautiful place, have mystical experiences, dream of the future.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:19

      Is that your phone?

   9. AFAmanda Feilding1:20

      Yes.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:20

       There we go. (laughs)

   11. AFAmanda Feilding1:21

       Oh. (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:22

       When did you first get involved or even interested in, uh, what you would call mystical experiences? I'll let you sh-

   13. AFAmanda Feilding1:29

       Ah, sorry, sorry, sorry.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:31

       No worries, no worries.

   15. AFAmanda Feilding1:31

       Whoopsie. I don't know how to turn these things off.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:35

       Do you want me to turn it on mute for you?

   17. AFAmanda Feilding1:36

       Yes, please.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:37

       Okay. These wacky kids today and their devices. All right, here you go.

   19. AFAmanda Feilding1:42

       Oh, yes, sorry about that.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:43

       No worries. No worries at all. Um, so-

   21. AFAmanda Feilding1:47

       Uh, yes.

2. 1:48 – 5:30

   Childhood roots: isolation, spirituality, and early mystical curiosity

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:48

      ... how old were you when you first got interested in...

   2. AFAmanda Feilding1:51

      Um, very young, I should say. Um, I came, uh, I had a kind of in the... I, I w- grew up in this very isolated place. Um, I was very, very close to my father, who came back from the war a diabetic, and he was a very eccentric person. And so from three, I was his carer. So I was like-

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:18

      Three years old?

   4. AFAmanda Feilding2:19

      Yeah, which was a lovely role. I mean, I was his little pet dog. I went everywhere with him. (laughs) I adored him, and he adored me. And so... And he was a very, um, out of the... He wasn't in normal society at all.

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:33

      How so?

   6. AFAmanda Feilding2:34

      He just wasn't. He was a eccentric and a charming, um, did his own thing.

   7. JRJoe Rogan2:41

      Hmm.

   8. AFAmanda Feilding2:42

      Artist, um, a farmer, but not really a farmer. He couldn't bear really farming, but, um, yeah. Anyway, so, um, and I suppose spiritually, I had three... my mother was a Catholic, so I grew up a Catholic. And then he was whatever agnostic is. Yes, just nothing except a thinker. And, um, then his best friend, who was his kind of... he picked up as, um, he... the person who did all his work when he was at university called Bertie, um, was... became a Buddhist monk, a rather famous Buddhist monk. But... So he was a big influence in the absence 'cause he was my godfather. And so I had these three influences. And so I kind of dreamt of doing magic, mystical things in the world.

   9. JRJoe Rogan3:36

      Hmm.

   10. AFAmanda Feilding3:37

       And, um, had mystical experiences as lots of children do. And so then, um, I... I'm sorry, I can't quite, uh, think how to con- condense it. But anyway, I grew up in an unusual setting (laughs) and, um, with a passion for altered states, the mystics. I started studying them when I was probably about 10.

   11. JRJoe Rogan4:05

       Really?

   12. AFAmanda Feilding4:05

       Yeah, and, um, and it became rather a passion. And in, in, uh, the place we lived in, this... it got three moats, and it was o- very overgrown. And in between the moats, there was a, a mound, very beautiful mound, where I had a kind of pet god who lived in the mound-

   13. JRJoe Rogan4:26

       (laughs)

   14. AFAmanda Feilding4:27

       (laughs) ... called Zia. And my kind of, um, my mission was making this god figure laugh, so-

   15. JRJoe Rogan4:37

       Hmm.

   16. AFAmanda Feilding4:37

       ... that was the name of the game. And-

   17. JRJoe Rogan4:39

       So when, when you say you studied, uh, the mystical states at 10, like how so? How were you doing that?

   18. AFAmanda Feilding4:44

       Um, well, when I started reading, I started reading about it, but I didn't re-... I, I don't know what I meant by that. But when I went to church, Catholic church, with my mother and there was incense and all that sort of thing-

   19. JRJoe Rogan4:56

       Hmm.

   20. AFAmanda Feilding4:57

       ... and I had kind of mystical experiences with Jesus, I was very c- close to Jesus in those days. And, um, then, uh, whatever. Uh, but it was a kind of rather wild, quite a dangerous upbringing. Um, we had to do the farming. It was quite... it was a mixture between rather kind of beautiful setting, but quite a mixture with peasant life, of looking after the animals and, um, farm, farm animals-

   21. JRJoe Rogan5:30

       Hmm.

3. 5:30 – 6:25

   Leaving convent school at 16 and seeking Buddhism and self-education

   1. AFAmanda Feilding5:30

      ... pig, pigs, cows, all of that sort of thing. And, um, then one point I decided I wanted to leave home and I went to a boarding school, which was a terrible mistake, and, um, a convent. And actually I won the Sound... when I was 16, won the Sound's Prizes. I was quite clever, but I hated it and lived outside the boundaries of the school all the time. And then I wanted books on Buddhism 'cause I... for my prize.... and the nuns all said, "No, no, we can't give you books on Buddhism." And so (laughs) I said, "All right. I'll, I'll, I'll leave, thanks very much, and educate myself," which is what I did. I left school at 16.

   2. JRJoe Rogan6:16

      Really?

   3. AFAmanda Feilding6:17

      And, um-

   4. JRJoe Rogan6:18

      And it was because they wouldn't allow you to study Buddhism?

   5. AFAmanda Feilding6:20

      Yeah. I, uh...

   6. JRJoe Rogan6:21

      Yeah.

   7. AFAmanda Feilding6:21

      That, that was what I chose to study and they wouldn't, so I said thanks.

4. 6:25 – 9:23

   Religion, incense, and the idea of psychedelics at the roots of Christianity

   1. JRJoe Rogan6:25

      In the original days of the church, the incense, what they would walk down the aisle with-

   2. AFAmanda Feilding6:30

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan6:30

      ... that was cannabis?

   4. AFAmanda Feilding6:31

      That, that was beautiful.

   5. JRJoe Rogan6:32

      Yeah.

   6. AFAmanda Feilding6:33

      I mean, the one thing I loved about that convent, there was a... In the chapel, in, uh, they had evensong, and this Italian nun with the voice of an angel, and it really... With the incense-

   7. JRJoe Rogan6:46

      Mm.

   8. AFAmanda Feilding6:46

      ... took one into a mystical space.

   9. JRJoe Rogan6:49

      Yeah.

   10. AFAmanda Feilding6:50

       And that was very special. That was the high point of it.

   11. JRJoe Rogan6:52

       They used to use cannabis, and then the host... What did the host used to be?

   12. AFAmanda Feilding6:56

       The host, I mean, obviously, originally, it was a psychedelic.

   13. JRJoe Rogan7:01

       Yes.

   14. AFAmanda Feilding7:02

       Um...

   15. JRJoe Rogan7:02

       Do we know what psychedelic?

   16. AFAmanda Feilding7:05

       Um, I think different places had different ones, but kind of based on mushroom or ergot or-

   17. JRJoe Rogan7:13

       Hmm.

   18. AFAmanda Feilding7:13

       ... those sort of things, funnily enough.

   19. JRJoe Rogan7:14

       Mm-hmm.

   20. AFAmanda Feilding7:15

       I'm rather keen on making sacred hosts. Um, I, I recently was inv- involved in that. Anyway, that's a different story.

   21. JRJoe Rogan7:24

       The... But that... I would love to hear that story.

   22. AFAmanda Feilding7:26

       (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan7:26

       You make sacred hosts?

   24. AFAmanda Feilding7:27

       No, I don't, but I'm going to.

   25. JRJoe Rogan7:29

       Y- you're going to? Yeah.

   26. AFAmanda Feilding7:29

       I'm wi- I'm intending to. I once actually, the story was very much shock, um, probably Ca- uh, Catholic converts. Um, not so... Uh, well, once I was in Paris and we were m- walking by Notre Dame on a Sunday, and really high, and, um, went into the church and lovely Eucharist. I hadn't heard all those wonderful song- songs. I loved those Latin...

   27. JRJoe Rogan8:00

       Mm-hmm.

   28. AFAmanda Feilding8:01

       ... 16th century or 15th century-

   29. JRJoe Rogan8:04

       Mm-hmm.

   30. AFAmanda Feilding8:04

       ... um, chanting. And so I experienced having the host again, and it was so delicious. Spiritually, it was wonderful.
5. 9:23 – 12:27

   First cannabis experience, Oxford influences, and tutoring under Zaehner

   1. JRJoe Rogan9:23

      So when you were first experiencing these things, like what year are we talking about when you first got ex- excited about these things?

   2. AFAmanda Feilding9:31

      Um, let me just think for a moment. Um, well, I first smoked cannabis when I was 16, and funny enough, the first time I smoked it, Ray Charles was playing.

   3. JRJoe Rogan9:46

      Oh, wow.

   4. AFAmanda Feilding9:47

      And I... Ah, I felt this is paradise.

   5. JRJoe Rogan9:50

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   6. AFAmanda Feilding9:51

      (laughs) And I've, I've bet a hun- millions of people had Ray Charles on our first sounding of, um, cannabis. But it was wonderful.

   7. JRJoe Rogan10:01

      It's amazing what it does to music.

   8. AFAmanda Feilding10:03

      Yeah, yeah. So I was, um, 16, which was, uh, um, I was born in '43. So I know when that was. Um, um, anyway, that's when I started smoking cannabis and, um, it was... I was at Oxford at that point with a very interesting group of, um... They were older than the other students 'cause they'd been in Korea, so they were much better educated and they were smokers, and, um, introduced me to a lot of wonderful books, um, like Against Nature and, um, Le Trou Blanc, and well, rather wonderful reading material.

   9. JRJoe Rogan10:44

      Mm-hmm.

   10. AFAmanda Feilding10:44

       And it was a very creative period. And at that point, as I'd left school by then, I had somehow got, um, the world's leading, um, expert, like, um, uh, what was the American one? Can't remember. Anyway, on, um, comparative religions and mysticism, someone called Professor Zaehner who was in All Souls in Oxford and wrote a book called, um, Mysticism, Sacred and Profane.

   11. JRJoe Rogan11:15

       Mm-hmm.

   12. AFAmanda Feilding11:16

       And he became my tutor. So I went and saw him twice a week which was a very kind of awkward, um (laughs) , meeting. So, um, um, 'cause I was very shy and he was very shy and it was in All Souls.

   13. JRJoe Rogan11:33

       (laughs)

   14. AFAmanda Feilding11:33

       (laughs) . And we both sat there cuddling the cats kind of thing. And then finally, I decided the best way forward was to bring my very, very handsome, um, cousin, who was a student at Oxford, 'cause he was gay, and that kind of warmed-

   15. JRJoe Rogan11:47

       Loosened everybody up?

   16. AFAmanda Feilding11:48

       Yeah, yeah. (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan11:49

       Ah, very smart.

   18. AFAmanda Feilding11:50

       And then it became very-

   19. JRJoe Rogan11:51

       A hunter trap.

   20. AFAmanda Feilding11:51

       ... friendly and fun.

   21. JRJoe Rogan11:53

       Yeah.

   22. AFAmanda Feilding11:53

       And, but anyway, he'd written this book, which I actually didn't agree with, which was saying, um, that psychedelics, um, what was it? Mysticism is sacred and profane.... and he was the Catholic (inaudible) actually. And he thought that he'd had one experience with mescaline, I think it was, and not liked it-

   23. JRJoe Rogan12:12

       Hmm.

   24. AFAmanda Feilding12:13

       ... and thought that they were a very different bracket to the experience you get through an endogenous mystical experience.

   25. JRJoe Rogan12:19

       Interesting.

   26. AFAmanda Feilding12:20

       Which I don't actually think is necessary. I think they're the same experience, but obviously with different qualities.

6. 12:27 – 22:12

   Ego, language, and Feilding’s blood-flow theory of consciousness

   1. JRJoe Rogan12:27

      I've, I've heard you say that you believe that what psychedelics do is make the mind more fertile for these experiences.

   2. AFAmanda Feilding12:34

      Yes.

   3. JRJoe Rogan12:34

      Is that a good way of putting it?

   4. AFAmanda Feilding12:35

      Yes. That's exactly what I think. I think you're at that level where the ego's control has dissolved to some degree, and so it's like fertile gr- ground. And so if you've, whatever, pre-trained, or if you're ready for a mystical experience, you're more likely to have it in that experience-

   5. JRJoe Rogan12:58

      Mm-hmm.

   6. AFAmanda Feilding12:58

      ... in that state of mind.

   7. JRJoe Rogan12:59

      So, the mind is actually restricting us in many ways through the ego from having these experiences.

   8. AFAmanda Feilding13:05

      Yes. I think so. (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan13:06

      And what psychedelics do is release those boundaries.

   10. AFAmanda Feilding13:10

       Yes. I think that due to the, um, evolution of man, uh, homo- homo sapiens, and our taking, the ape taking the upright position... This is a theory I was introduced to in 1966. And actually, I think a lot of the details are probably wrong, but in concept I think it's true, which is, um, the ape standing upright. One thing people haven't taken into account is obviously there are hundreds of assets of standing upright. You free your hands, you run faster, you see further, all of that. But in the upright position, gravity is against the blood in the brain because in the brain, there are two-

   11. JRJoe Rogan14:01

       Hmm.

   12. AFAmanda Feilding14:01

       ... fluid volumes, blood and cerebral spinal fluid, which is water basically, which is made in the brain itself. So it has kind of squatter's rights in the brain. So, um, when you're in the upright position, gravity is pulling the blood down. So, I think probably with the upright position, we lost a small proportion of our blood supply. I mean, some animals, if you tie them upright, a dog for instance, if it's tied up so it can't get down, it will start howling and go mad because it hasn't got the valves to keep the blood up.

   13. JRJoe Rogan14:45

       Hmm.

   14. AFAmanda Feilding14:46

       And we've obviously got a certain amount, but maybe we lost some blood at that upright position. And as a compensation for that loss, I think we developed an internal mechanism more than any other animal has, um, done it, which is to direct the blood where it most needs to go. Obviously, all animals do that. They have the power to send the blood where it's most important to survival or whatever. And I think that through the use of the conditioned sound, the word, we learned to control that process more than any other animal.

   15. JRJoe Rogan15:29

       Hmm.

   16. AFAmanda Feilding15:30

       And over the millennia, we kind of built up our power to do that. So, I think that's the secret of why humans, you know, which is a talking, upright talking ape, got control of the whole game, because of our creation of language which enabled us to do all these incredible things we do.

   17. JRJoe Rogan15:53

       Yes.

   18. AFAmanda Feilding15:53

       But it also has a disadvantage, that our basic state is slightly low in blood in the dominant organ.

   19. JRJoe Rogan16:06

       Hmm.

   20. AFAmanda Feilding16:07

       So we have to keep this str- this mechanism of tight control in where the blood is distributed, and that has evolved with the ego, which is essential. I mean, we wouldn't survive without the ego to kind of, um, direct the blood where it's most needed. Um, people who lose their ego, and in the '60s when people took large doses of LSD, as it was then, every day, sometimes they lost their ego. They flipped out.

   21. JRJoe Rogan16:42

       Mm-hmm.

   22. AFAmanda Feilding16:43

       And there was one occasion of someone we knew who was in Ibiza, and he'd flipped out and he put the key in his, the lock to open the door, someone to say goodnight to him. He put the key in the lock and left him. And then in the morning, he was still there with the key in the door because the head hadn't told him, "Turn the key to open the door." (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan17:08

       (laughs)

   24. AFAmanda Feilding17:08

       So there. (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan17:09

       Wow.

   26. AFAmanda Feilding17:09

       So we need the words to keep us, you know...

   27. JRJoe Rogan17:12

       Yes.

   28. AFAmanda Feilding17:13

       ... under control.

   29. JRJoe Rogan17:14

       Yeah.

   30. AFAmanda Feilding17:15

       So, it, the words have made us what we are, this incredible animal who can, um, you know, have a nuclear war if we want or know all the atoms in the body, all of those brilliant things we do, which is amazing, but we're also obviously a very deeply faulted animal at some point. We're, um, you know, neurotic, psychotic, psycho- you know...
7. 22:12 – 26:47

   Ancient art and mystery cults: Chauvet caves, Eleusis, and cultural “rings”

   1. AFAmanda Feilding22:12

      And at the earliest, um, demonstrations of what we've got, of the earliest demonstrations of, um, human culture, say the caves in Chauvet. Do you know them?

   2. JRJoe Rogan22:26

      Yes.

   3. AFAmanda Feilding22:26

      Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan22:27

      Yeah.

   5. AFAmanda Feilding22:27

      Which I-

   6. JRJoe Rogan22:28

      Amazing.

   7. AFAmanda Feilding22:28

      ... I think they've never been bettered. I mean, that, that artwork, the brushstrokes-

   8. JRJoe Rogan22:33

      It's incredible.

   9. AFAmanda Feilding22:33

      ... of those animals.

   10. JRJoe Rogan22:34

       Yeah.

   11. AFAmanda Feilding22:34

       They're alive. You can see the movement. No one ever did it better.

   12. JRJoe Rogan22:38

       And it's like 30-something thousand-

   13. AFAmanda Feilding22:40

       Thir-

   14. JRJoe Rogan22:40

       ... years old?

   15. AFAmanda Feilding22:40

       Exactly. 35, 40-

   16. JRJoe Rogan22:42

       Mm.

   17. AFAmanda Feilding22:42

       Something around there.

   18. JRJoe Rogan22:43

       Wow.

   19. AFAmanda Feilding22:43

       So the... I can tell because I... um, some respect as an artist. I know those strokes.

   20. JRJoe Rogan22:51

       Well, see if... Pull up some of those images, Jamie, 'cause some of those-

   21. AFAmanda Feilding22:54

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan22:54

       ... images are... There, here we go.

   23. AFAmanda Feilding22:54

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan22:55

       Amazing stuff.

   25. AFAmanda Feilding22:55

       They're just incredible, aren't they?

   26. JRJoe Rogan22:57

       Yeah.

   27. AFAmanda Feilding22:58

       The movement of the animals-

   28. JRJoe Rogan22:59

       Yeah, how they caught-

   29. AFAmanda Feilding23:00

       ... the feeling in them.

   30. JRJoe Rogan23:00

       Yeah.
8. 26:47 – 29:35

   The drug war’s ‘lost decades’ and the strategy to change policy through science

   1. JRJoe Rogan26:47

      Yeah, that was a giant problem after 1970, correct?

   2. AFAmanda Feilding26:50

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan26:51

      Like, after the sweeping psychedelic act where they made everything Schedule 1, psilocybin-

   4. AFAmanda Feilding26:56

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan26:56

      ... mescaline, everything. And when they did that, they, they... not only did they ruin the possibility of having those experiences for so many people because it was forbidden-

   6. AFAmanda Feilding27:07

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan27:07

      ... because it was very dangerous, you could get arrested-

   8. AFAmanda Feilding27:09

      Yeah. Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan27:09

      ... but also, it stopped all the research.

   10. AFAmanda Feilding27:11

       Yes. Absolutely. For 50... it was 50, 60, 70 lost years, which is a criminal thing, actually.

   11. JRJoe Rogan27:19

       Yeah.

   12. AFAmanda Feilding27:19

       And the untold suffering of the millions of people who went to prison, usually from minorities-

   13. JRJoe Rogan27:27

       Yes.

   14. AFAmanda Feilding27:28

       ... and had their r- lives ruined by a record-

   15. JRJoe Rogan27:31

       Mm-hmm.

   16. AFAmanda Feilding27:31

       ... for maybe having th- uh, j- uh, being caught for a joint three times or whatever.

   17. JRJoe Rogan27:36

       Right.

   18. AFAmanda Feilding27:36

       I mean, it is horrific what happened.

   19. JRJoe Rogan27:39

       It's horrific. Well, there's people in jail right now for that-

   20. AFAmanda Feilding27:41

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan27:41

       ... in this country, which is insane.

   22. AFAmanda Feilding27:43

       It's insane. And, I mean, I started fighting that back whenever, when I started the Beckley Foundation. I wa- I saw that in order to do research, one had to change the drug policies, and the two went hand in hand because doing the research would help change the drug policies. And in order to do the research, you had to change the policies. And, I mean, it was a bit of a catch-22, 'cause until you've done the research, you can't do it, if you see what I mean.

   23. JRJoe Rogan28:12

       Hmm. Right.

   24. AFAmanda Feilding28:13

       'Cause it... they make it so difficult to do.

   25. JRJoe Rogan28:15

       Well, I think what MAPS has done, which is genius, is, um, their work with MDMA and soldiers and soldiers having PTSD-

   26. AFAmanda Feilding28:22

       Absolutely.

   27. JRJoe Rogan28:23

       ... because-

   28. AFAmanda Feilding28:24

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan28:24

       ... the general con- uh, I mean, when you think of soldiers and you think of people in the military, you generally think of people who are right-wing, who, uh, have more authoritarian leanings.

   30. AFAmanda Feilding28:34

       Yes.
9. 29:35 – 32:43

   Neuroimaging breakthrough: default mode network, depression, and the mystical predictor

   1. AFAmanda Feilding29:35

      ... and b- better h- happiness, more fulfilled life. And so, I thought, uh, that, that's why I started doing the sounds, to s- try to, with the language of the modern world, which is sound, to demonstrate how valuable these compounds are. And I think our first... that's why I set up the Beckley Imperial Study, and the first study we did was using psilocybin, and then we saw that... I wanted to do LSD, but we couldn't do LSD in those days. Um, it had to be psilocybin, and as... no one knows what psilocybin is, how it's spelled, what, what it means. It's not so taboo.

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:18

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AFAmanda Feilding30:18

      So we got permission.And, um, I wanted to do brain imaging to look into a hypothesis that what they do is increase the volume of blood in the, in the brain capillaries.

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:33

      Hmm.

   5. AFAmanda Feilding30:33

      And hopefully with MRI one would see that, I thought. But anyway, what we did see in the first study we did with, uh, psilocybin, was a decrease of blood in the, um, default mode network, which is a modern expression of the ego.

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:51

      Hmm.

   7. AFAmanda Feilding30:52

      Or part of the ego. And that was very interesting because the default mode network, i.e. the ego, is hyperactive underlying psychological, um, conditions like depression or anxiety or addiction or all of those things have a hyperactive ego saying, "I need a drink, I'm so depressed." So there.

   8. JRJoe Rogan31:19

      Yes.

   9. AFAmanda Feilding31:19

      And we saw that psilocybin lowers the blood supply to that part of the brain.

   10. JRJoe Rogan31:26

       Hmm.

   11. AFAmanda Feilding31:27

       And so then actually we got a government grant to help us do the next phase of the study. So, I think i- it's very important showing how, 'cause as we all know we're in a epidemic of mental illness now.

   12. JRJoe Rogan31:46

       Yes.

   13. AFAmanda Feilding31:47

       Getting ever more. And rather surprisingly and in a way rather ironically, science which has been so determined to prove that the spiritual is an old man in the sky and it's, I think it's total rubbish, which it finally has done, um, now at the very center of the new healing, i.e. psychedelic-assisted therapy, is the mystical experience. And what we showed is the people who underwent what is then categorized as a mystical experience, i.e. a loosening of the ego, a feeling of unity, those are the ones who have the best outcomes of overcoming their depression.

   14. JRJoe Rogan32:35

       Hmm.

   15. AFAmanda Feilding32:36

       So it's rather a beautiful little, um, ironical twist.

   16. JRJoe Rogan32:42

       Yes.

10. 32:43 – 38:23

    Microdosing and medical frontiers: Alzheimer’s, autism, Parkinson’s, migraines, and cannabis

    1. AFAmanda Feilding32:43

       That now suddenly the psychedelics are at the center of this new approach to healing. And I think the healing of psychedelics goes much, much farther than what we've touched on so far, which is, um, the psychologically-based conditions. I, I think it can be very, very useful in different doses 'cause what is so wonderful about psychedelics is they have different, totally different effects in the different dose.

    2. JRJoe Rogan33:17

       Right.

    3. AFAmanda Feilding33:19

       And at the, um, mini/micro dose, um, I, I'm beginning to have evidence and I'm just starting a study which shows amazing potential results of micro dose for Alzheimer's.

    4. JRJoe Rogan33:37

       Really?

    5. AFAmanda Feilding33:38

       Yeah.

    6. JRJoe Rogan33:38

       Interesting.

    7. AFAmanda Feilding33:40

       Absolutely amazing, remarkable.

    8. JRJoe Rogan33:42

       Really?

    9. AFAmanda Feilding33:42

       Yeah. And-

    10. JRJoe Rogan33:43

        I was watching a video yesterday on cannabis and Parkinson's.

    11. AFAmanda Feilding33:47

        Yeah.

    12. JRJoe Rogan33:47

        It was incredible.

    13. AFAmanda Feilding33:48

        Yeah.

    14. JRJoe Rogan33:49

        There was a gentleman who had horrible loss of control of his body and this shaking.

    15. AFAmanda Feilding33:54

        Mm-hmm.

    16. JRJoe Rogan33:54

        And they gave him-

    17. AFAmanda Feilding33:55

        Yeah.

    18. JRJoe Rogan33:55

        ... cannabis oil.

    19. AFAmanda Feilding33:56

        Yeah.

    20. JRJoe Rogan33:57

        And he put it under his tongue and a few minutes later he's lying back on the couch and then he holds his hands out and his hands are-

    21. AFAmanda Feilding34:03

        Yeah.

    22. JRJoe Rogan34:03

        ... dead straight. I'm like, "This is extraordinary."

    23. AFAmanda Feilding34:05

        Wonderful. Extraordinary. And my, um, partner before who, um, um, is the father of my children, he got Parkinson's, so I was very worried and very fond of him. S- mild Parkinson's, but still it was Parkinson's. And so I'd heard how, and I've studied it, but how micro dosing ibogaine-

    24. JRJoe Rogan34:28

        Hmm.

    25. AFAmanda Feilding34:28

        ... is very good for, um, m- minimizing. So I'm wanting to do, I'm setting up a research into that.

    26. JRJoe Rogan34:38

        Interesting.

    27. AFAmanda Feilding34:39

        You know, I think a- and I think also-

    28. JRJoe Rogan34:40

        Yeah, this is the gentleman right here. This is exactly the video that I saw.

    29. AFAmanda Feilding34:43

        Oh yes. Oh, yes.

    30. JRJoe Rogan34:43

        So this guy has-
11. 38:23 – 53:41

    How psychedelics might work: blood, vasoconstriction models, glucose, and connectivity maps

    1. AFAmanda Feilding38:23

       are the mechanisms underlying that makes, um, LSD and a- associated compounds have the effect it has? And obviously, then, there was no brain imaging. It was very difficult to see inside the brain. One could only, uh, theorize about it, hypothe- make hypotheses.

    2. JRJoe Rogan38:44

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AFAmanda Feilding38:45

       And so this, um, Dutch scientist, who I had this long relationship with, had, um, this hypothesis that it, um, constricts, it's a vasoconstrictor, constricting the veins so blood comes into the capillaries, can't get out, the capillaries blow up and squeeze out the cerebral spinal fluid, and then slowly over the, uh, hours, gravity, um, pulls the blood down again, so-

    4. JRJoe Rogan39:19

       Mm-hmm.

    5. AFAmanda Feilding39:19

       That's, um-

    6. JRJoe Rogan39:21

       That's the theory.

    7. AFAmanda Feilding39:22

       Yeah, and you go back to normal. But during that period of more blood in the brain, you have more energy. Now, I'm looking into, now, how does it make more energy apart from providing more glucose and oxygen? And I've got a very, very interesting, something which is coming up which I'll tell you on my next talk about it.

    8. JRJoe Rogan39:42

       Okay. (laughs)

    9. AFAmanda Feilding39:43

       (laughs) But I, I'm very excited because, uh, I think people, anyone you talk to would say that the psychedelics, or indeed cannabis, they all work on the same direction. I think they all, cannabis and the psychedelics have the same underlying mechanisms but at different levels of, um, I think the constrictions.

    10. JRJoe Rogan40:05

        Yeah.

    11. AFAmanda Feilding40:05

        Uh, the psychedelics are much stronger 'cause you obviously get much higher, you can on a psychedelic. But they're going in the same direction. And that's what the endogenously, a lot of, uh, I'd love to know more about that and I will if I've got time to do that study into the underlying, um, you know, um, serotonin, dopamine, all, all the different enzymes, um, hormones in the body which can do these things endogenously.

    12. JRJoe Rogan40:36

        Yeah.

    13. AFAmanda Feilding40:37

        I me- I mean, we know the saints got top high.

    14. JRJoe Rogan40:40

        Mm-hmm.

    15. AFAmanda Feilding40:40

        Saint Theresa, her description of her, um, orgasm with God is just like a description of a psychedelic trip-

    16. JRJoe Rogan40:49

        Yes.

    17. AFAmanda Feilding40:49

        ... kind of thing. So it's the same experience but either got endogenously or through other ways.

    18. JRJoe Rogan40:56

        I think once, one of the things that's very interesting about cannabis too is the difference between eating it-

    19. AFAmanda Feilding41:01

        Yes.

    20. JRJoe Rogan41:02

        ... and, and when your, your body's producing 11-hydroxy metabolite from the eating of it, uh, it can produce a very powerful psychedelic experience.

    21. AFAmanda Feilding41:11

        Absolutely.

    22. JRJoe Rogan41:12

        And, um, my experiences with it where it's been very profound are with the sensory deprivation tank.

    23. AFAmanda Feilding41:18

        Yes.

    24. JRJoe Rogan41:19

        I have a sensory deprivation tank, and I do it with-

    25. AFAmanda Feilding41:23

        Right.

    26. JRJoe Rogan41:23

        ... edible marijuana.

    27. AFAmanda Feilding41:24

        Right. Right.

    28. JRJoe Rogan41:25

        And it's incredible.

    29. AFAmanda Feilding41:25

        Right. And I think there's some, I've got a friend who grows marijuana, and I think, I'm very interested in the, um, he always wants me to work with one of the breeds he breeds, because it's, 'tis like a psychedelic.

    30. JRJoe Rogan41:40

        Mm-hmm.
12. 53:41 – 1:15:01

    Trepanation: ancient practice, modern hypothesis, and why she wants research not hype

    1. AFAmanda Feilding53:41

       was a tragedy actually, because he also was very interested in the kind of related thing of the possible increase in pulsation brought about by trepanation, which is a very ancient practice-

    2. JRJoe Rogan53:58

       Hmm.

    3. AFAmanda Feilding53:58

       ... which maybe brings the level of cerebral circulation back to childhood level, which is higher than the adult level.

    4. JRJoe Rogan54:07

       We should explain trepanation to people 'cause, uh, trepanation is a very ancient practice of drilling holes in, uh, in one's head. And you decided to do... You, you were in your 20s when you did this?

    5. AFAmanda Feilding54:21

       Um, yes.

    6. JRJoe Rogan54:22

       And what, what influenced you to do that? Like, what was the motivation?

    7. AFAmanda Feilding54:27

       Um, well, it was the theory of it which induced me to do it. And in a way, I prefer not, um, talking too much about it, not because I'm not in favor of researching it, but because I haven't done the research.

    8. JRJoe Rogan54:44

       Mm-hmm.

    9. AFAmanda Feilding54:44

       So I can't say, "Look, this is..."... been proven by-

    10. NANarrator54:49

        Right.

    11. AFAmanda Feilding54:49

        ... science, which until then, people didn't believe psy- uh, psychedelics worked.

    12. NANarrator54:54

        Right.

    13. AFAmanda Feilding54:54

        They would say, "That's um, placebo, fancy." Only the, when you sh- show in science then it, it worked. But anyway, the hypothesis is that when we're born, as we all know, there's the fontanelle, which are holes, which close soon, and you can see the pulsation in the s- f- fontanelle hole of the baby. You can see very much pulsing.

    14. NANarrator55:19

        Mm-hmm.

    15. AFAmanda Feilding55:21

        And then the holes close, but the sutures, the bones, are quite flexible, so there's still the p- full pulsation, the full systolic pulsation is happening. Then as you grow and the bones grow together, slowly, slowly, some of the pulsation is suppressed because it hasn't got the room to ex-

    16. NANarrator55:46

        Mm-hmm.

    17. AFAmanda Feilding55:47

        So, the hypothesis of trepanation, which has been done now, the earliest skull found is, funny enough, the archeologists at Chauvet, um, told me, um, near Chauvet they found a trepanned skull, um, of 25,000 years old.

    18. NANarrator56:10

        Mm.

    19. AFAmanda Feilding56:10

        And you can see if the person lived after the trepanation-

    20. NANarrator56:14

        As the bone grows.

    21. AFAmanda Feilding56:15

        Goes, yes-

    22. NANarrator56:15

        Yeah.

    23. AFAmanda Feilding56:15

        ... and softens.

    24. NANarrator56:17

        Mm-hmm.

    25. AFAmanda Feilding56:17

        So that's kind of, I think it... I haven't been studying it for the last 20, th- years because I've been onto psychedelics too much.

    26. NANarrator56:24

        Right.

    27. AFAmanda Feilding56:24

        But I long to because it's very close to what I want to do.

    28. NANarrator56:27

        Do we know the origins of trepanation? Do we know that how it was-

    29. AFAmanda Feilding56:32

        Uh, we know-

    30. NANarrator56:32

        ... initiated?
13. 1:15:01 – 2:09:56

    Self-trepanation story: motivations, method, subtle effects, and ‘bad optics’

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:15:01

       I- if you don't mind, when you had your own personal experience with trepanation-

    2. AFAmanda Feilding1:15:06

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:15:06

       ... what was that like?

    4. AFAmanda Feilding1:15:08

       Yeah.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:15:08

       What, what did it do for you?

    6. AFAmanda Feilding1:15:11

       Yeah, um, it was, um, sorry can I drink my water?

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:15:15

       Sure.

    8. AFAmanda Feilding1:15:16

       Um, I remember, I mean, no one wants to drill a hole in their head on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon (laughs) .

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:15:27

       Right.

    10. AFAmanda Feilding1:15:27

        I can tell you, it is not something... I'm a very cautious person. And so, I, I had a deep interest in it because I had very deep understanding of the hypothesis of, um, blood supply, and I was interested in researching it. Then, um, um, my partner, Joey Mellon, um, at that time, he was very keen on trepanning himself, and he, uh, was a second son so he kind of was a bit more casual, cavalier about it than I was, and so had quite a few missed shots.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:16:16

        Oh no.

    12. AFAmanda Feilding1:16:17

        (laughs) Before he finally got through. And, um, funnily enough, then I did notice a difference and the difference is very subtle. You really have to know a person to notice it. But how I'd express it is, it slightly lowers the neurotic characteristics, if you see what I mean.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:16:42

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    14. AFAmanda Feilding1:16:43

        They become, I mean, they don't d- they don't eliminate them in any way, but it lowers it. And so, having seen the difference, 'cause Bart was trepanned before I knew him, so I never experienced the change. But when I saw the change in Joey, I thought, "Well, it does make a difference." So, I had thought I'd find a doctor. So I'd spent four years looking for a doctor to trepan me. Um, and I had people who said they would, nearly, and then they said, "Oh, God, then does it have a hole in his own head. He would have given us one." Or-

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:17:17

        (laughs)

    16. AFAmanda Feilding1:17:17

        (laughs) Or, you know, and, "Oh, it could be bad for my career and Harley Street if it came out, or if you died."

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:17:24

        Right.

    18. AFAmanda Feilding1:17:24

        Or, you know, whatever.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:17:25

        Yes.

    20. AFAmanda Feilding1:17:26

        And so it didn't happen. So then I thought, "Well, I'm a sculptor. I'll sculpt my own skull and, and see what happens." So, I really studied it because I'm a very, very cautious person and in London, strangely, the, the shop was called Down Brothers, it's off Harley Street, and has all the instrumentation for trepanation. Very early, old shop actually. And charming staff there who showed me in detail how you trepan 'cause I went in as an interested observer.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:17:58

        Mm-hmm.

    22. AFAmanda Feilding1:17:59

        And so, I learned how to do it very cautiously. There are three layers of bone and et cetera, et cetera. I learned how to do it, so I felt competent to do it. And that, that took quite a long time, deciding I was competent and confident I could, um, do it. So I decided to make a film of it because I thought that what can separate me from the unpleasantness of doing such a silly thing. And so I made... Uh, funnily enough, my great aunt just died and had given me 70 pounds and I bought a lovely little movie Super 8 camera and s- set it up. And I had my beloved Birdie always with me. So (laughs) he, he was the observer of this thing. And there was all sorts of stories which I won't waste the time, but it was amazing 'cause, because we were asked to a party by rather kind of Guardian journalists, uh, top journalists in England for the Saturday night, I wa- had been planning on doing it on the Sunday, but I moved it forward. So, I thought it would be good publicity for the movement if, uh...I, I, um... anyway, I moved it forward. And then there was the electricity strike in England. So if I hadn't moved it forward, the electricity would've been cut.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:19:25

        Oh.

    24. AFAmanda Feilding1:19:26

        Which was just a kind of good little trick of beating fate-

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:19:30

        Mm-hmm.

    26. AFAmanda Feilding1:19:30

        ... to do it. So anyway, I did it very, very carefully with a hand trepan in the mirror. Perfect little operation.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:19:38

        What kind... was it a drill?

    28. AFAmanda Feilding1:19:40

        Drill, electric drill. But I used a ball with a flat bottom so it couldn't damage the membrane 'cause obviously what one's frightened of is damaging the membrane surrounding the brain.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:19:52

        Right.

    30. AFAmanda Feilding1:19:53

        I mean, I don't want to go into detail with it at all. But, um, all I can say, I, I did it. I knew the second I was through because the second you're through, there's no resistance.

Episode duration: 2:35:45