Joe Rogan Experience #2021 - Mike Baker

1. 0:00 – 1:14

   Cigars, notes, and a whirlwind of headlines since the last visit

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music)

   3. MBMike Baker0:13

      That's a fine cigar.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      It's not bad, right?

   5. MBMike Baker0:15

      Yeah, it's really nice.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      Foundation Cigars, shout on to them.

   7. MBMike Baker0:18

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:18

      What's up, Mike Baker? How are you?

   9. MBMike Baker0:19

      (inhales deeply) I'm doing well, thank you.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:20

       What do you got in those pa- pieces of paper to scare the shit out of me with?

   11. MBMike Baker0:23

       Yeah, you know what?

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:24

       (laughs)

   13. MBMike Baker0:25

       This. I've got-

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:25

       You've got notes. (laughs)

   15. MBMike Baker0:26

       I, I got notes, 'cause you know why? 'Cause I, I'm always being accused of, uh, of, of wandering, uh, not being as organized as I should be, right?

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:33

       That's just this podcast does that to people.

   17. MBMike Baker0:35

       Yeah. Maybe so, but I, I said to myself, "Fuck it. I'm gonna, I'm gonna write some things down."

   18. JRJoe Rogan0:39

       Okay.

   19. MBMike Baker0:40

       Because so much has happened since the last time we sat down.

   20. JRJoe Rogan0:42

       Yeah.

   21. MBMike Baker0:42

       And so and, and I made a list. I'm gonna, uh, I'm gonna run through that if you don't mind. Um-

   22. JRJoe Rogan0:46

       Okay.

   23. MBMike Baker0:47

       Since the last show, see I even headlined it. Uh, Chinese spy balloon, failed mutiny in Russia, four indictments of Trump. No, last night was the fourth. Um, bank account records showing the Biden family took over $20 million. Um, Pee-wee Herman died.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:06

       (laughs)

   25. MBMike Baker1:06

       Um-

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:06

       (laughs) Glad you've got that in your notes.

   27. MBMike Baker1:08

       I've got that ... I, I actually have, yeah, I've got it.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:10

       (sniffs)

   29. MBMike Baker1:10

       It's right there, and it's right before, um, the two-year anniversary of the Afghan withdrawal. I probably should've put that above Pee-wee Herman.

2. 1:14 – 7:29

   Remembering Pee-wee Herman: early performances, scandal context, and comedy nostalgia

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:14

      W- why did you put Pee-wee Herman in there?

   2. MBMike Baker1:17

      You know what? 'Cause I d- it ... when, when I found out that Paul Reubens died, I was sad. I mean, it was, it was like I, I ... I'm old enough, I actually went to a, uh, a show that, uh, Paul did wh- when he was kind of working out as Pee-wee character, right?

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:31

      Oh, really?

   4. MBMike Baker1:32

      And so... And it was fantastic. It was a great show.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:33

      When was this?

   6. MBMike Baker1:33

      This was ... oh, fuck, it was years ago, so it would have been, uh, it was before, uh ... it was probably like '80 ... shit, uh, '82? '83? '81?

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:45

      Oh, wow.

   8. MBMike Baker1:45

      Somewhere in that timeframe, right? It was a long time ago. It was at, uh, Georgetown University, in DC. And, uh, and it was a great show. Anyway, point being ... and then, and I always thought, like, he didn't get enough credit for like Pee-wee's Playhouse and I know that people are like, "What the fuck is he talking about?" But-

   9. JRJoe Rogan2:01

      (laughs)

   10. MBMike Baker2:02

       But he was, he was really ... he was a, he was a, he was a good guy. He kinda got ... he got off the rails with the, uh ... a little bit, for a period of time, with that he was, he was, uh, wanking in a, in a porn theater.

   11. JRJoe Rogan2:12

       Yeah, but isn't that what they do in those things? Especially a gay porn theater?

   12. MBMike Baker2:16

       I guess, yeah. I- it's gotta sound weird, right, to kids though?

   13. JRJoe Rogan2:19

       Yeah.

   14. MBMike Baker2:19

       Like, "Porn theater? What?"

   15. JRJoe Rogan2:20

       I know.

   16. MBMike Baker2:21

       Yeah, yeah. It does.

   17. JRJoe Rogan2:22

       That's ... They used to have to go to places.

   18. MBMike Baker2:24

       You had to ... I don't, I-

   19. JRJoe Rogan2:25

       I don't know if you had to.

   20. MBMike Baker2:27

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan2:27

       Back when he was doing it-

   22. MBMike Baker2:28

       (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan2:28

       ... I don't, I don't think there was a law.

   24. MBMike Baker2:30

       Yeah. (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan2:30

       But, uh, I think, uh, back when he was doing it, there were still ... VHS tapes were out.

   26. MBMike Baker2:35

       Uh-

   27. JRJoe Rogan2:35

       And I think DVDs were out back then, too, 'cause this was like ... I wanna say he got busted in like '90 something?

   28. MBMike Baker2:41

       Yeah. Yeah, it was, it was e- easily-

   29. NANarrator2:43

       '91.

   30. MBMike Baker2:44

       '91? Okay.
3. 7:29 – 13:47

   Chinese spy balloon: what it likely collected and why the U.S. waited to shoot it down

   1. MBMike Baker7:29

      Yeah, well, um, we're gonna unfreeze a lot of money, um, for, uh, the Iran, uh, prisoner swap. That's a- that's another story. But we could start with the Chinese spy balloon, since I ... I don't know-

   2. JRJoe Rogan7:41

      Yeah.

   3. MBMike Baker7:41

      ... why I got started there first, 'cause-

   4. JRJoe Rogan7:42

      So, what is your take on the Chinese spy balloon?

   5. MBMike Baker7:46

      Um, well-

   6. JRJoe Rogan7:46

      They said that Trump w- that there was a bunch of those that were happening while Trump was in office, but they didn't tell him about it 'cause they were worried he was gonna shoot them down-

   7. MBMike Baker7:54

      (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan7:54

      ... which I thought was fucking amazing.

   9. MBMike Baker7:56

      (laughs) That might ... You know what? I'm, I'm not gonna ... At this stage of the game, I'm not gonna say anything that doesn't sound plausible. Everything sounds plausible now, guys.

   10. JRJoe Rogan8:05

       Yeah.

   11. MBMike Baker8:05

       So, um, the Chinese regime continues, just like with the fucking Wuhan lab, the Chinese r- regime continues to just say it was a weather balloon, right? It got blown off course. It was a weather balloon. Well, A, it didn't get blown off course. It had a massive array of propellers. It had a rudder. It had solar panels to keep those propellers churning. They knew exactly what they were doing and where they were going. Um, and, you know, it shows up over whatever, Alaska, the end of January, whenever, and, uh, proceeds to travel across the country in a path that is clearly designed to, you know, collect intelligence from sensitive facilities, right? It flies over Montana. Um, it flies over-

   12. JRJoe Rogan8:49

       And what's in Montana?

   13. MBMike Baker8:50

       Uh, a lot, but there's, uh, Malmstrom, uh, Air Force Base, and that's a ... It's part of our, our, where we put our land-based nukes, right?

   14. JRJoe Rogan8:58

       What part of, uh, Montana is that in?

   15. MBMike Baker9:00

       Um, the northern part, uh, if you square it up-

   16. JRJoe Rogan9:03

       Close to Canada?

   17. MBMike Baker9:04

       Yeah, yeah. Not ... Well, a little further f- south than Canada, but it's, it's, it's like the top quarter, I guess. I think that's right. Um, and it does about 150 or so, um, you know, uh, silo-based nukes there. Um, so-

   18. JRJoe Rogan9:21

       There it is.

   19. MBMike Baker9:21

       There it is.

   20. JRJoe Rogan9:24

       So, that's the base?

   21. MBMike Baker9:25

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan9:26

       And so it was flying over that.

   23. MBMike Baker9:27

       Flying over, flying over Malmstrom, um ...

   24. JRJoe Rogan9:30

       And so they were aware of it? The air force base was aware of it?

   25. MBMike Baker9:34

       Um, they w- by the time ... Yeah. The, and, and look, it's not as if we're not, you know, uh, taking measures or countermeasures to prevent, um, surveillance, because, uh, the Chinese have spy satellites. Very technical, very, very advanced. So, we know how to protect communications. We know how to protect ... And we also know what's available, right? So, satellite imagery is gonna give you a fair amount of information anyway. So, the, the question is, okay, well, what, why the hell was this thing, which was as tall as the Statue of Liberty, why was it floating around up there with an array of antennas, obviously there to, to collect? Um, but it went over there. It went over, um, uh, Omaha or near Omaha, uh, where we've got, uh, US, uh, Strategic Command, uh, and Offutt, uh, Air Force Base. Um, and, you know, the, the, the US government, the military was like, "Well, we don't believe ..." after the fact, after we shot it down. They're like, "We don't believe that it was, uh, collecting." You know? "And we took measures to prevent it from collecting. And not only that, we didn't shoot it down at the beginning because we were monitoring its capabilities and, and learning from that." Now, part of that is true, right? If you've got a target, you identify a target, unlike with law enforcement in the intelligence world, you, you let that run, right? Because you wanna learn everything you can about that target. You know, who's there to support it? What, what does ... You know, what's that look like?

   26. JRJoe Rogan10:53

       How do they lear- how do they know that? Can they figure out what it's transmitting? Can they, can they tune into it?

   27. MBMike Baker10:59

       Um, it most ... Uh, yes, most of it's signals intelligence and, and capabilities. It's not really imagery that you're getting from it, although that's part of it. Um, but, you know, so I have no doubt that, you know, 'cause everyone was saying, "Well, why wouldn't you just shoot the fucker down when it showed up over Alaska on the, whenever, the 28th of January?" And, or when we became aware of it, um, initially, and, you know, because we live in a, you know, this highly partisan world, everybody was saying, "Well, because Biden's inept, and, you know, they didn't know what they were doing, and they let it float all the way across the states." So, you can't discount the argument that says, "Well part of it is we let it go because we were gathering intelligence ourselves from their capabilities." It's always interesting to know. It's just like when we ... Uh, here I go disappearing down a rabbit hole. When we lost that, uh, platform, that air asset, uh, during the Abbottabad raid, right? Um, and we had to leave it behind, and they destroyed, you know, to the degree they could, uh, everything that was in it of, of interest. But the platform itself was of interest, right? It was, it was ... 'Cause s- the two things that are important nowadays are stealth and speed. And that was, you know, that was ... Uh, there was a stealth design involved there. And there's also material science that's interesting. So, left it behind, um, after they bagged, uh, bin Laden.... literally. And, um, then, uh, three days later, uh, the- the Pakistanis had invited, uh, the Chinese to come in. And they were swarming all over that helicopter, right? Gathering intelligence. So you always ... if you have the opportunity to observe a target, I guess, like I said, you know, then you do. You- you can gain intelligence from. So I'm not one of those people who said, "Oh, they should've shot it down immediately," because I don't know what they were getting from it. But I do know that the purpose (laughs) of the balloon was to gather intelligence, uh, on us, on our sensitive facilities, to some degree. So anyway, uh, and then they- they sent all the remains, after they recovered them off the coast of South Carolina to, wherever, Quantico. Uh, and that was kind of the last we ever heard of it, right? Because we've all got attention deficit disorder. Nobody wants to, you know, think, okay, what did we learn? Can we do a hot wash on it and figure out ... and- and to what degree can you tell the public what the hell was going on? Right? Because honestly, I- I- you know, I don't know that we ever would have learned about it if it hadn't been so large (laughs) and, you know, members of the public hadn't seen it or spotted it.

   28. JRJoe Rogan13:14

       Right.

   29. MBMike Baker13:14

       So ...

   30. JRJoe Rogan13:15

       What altitude was it hovering around at?
4. 13:47 – 16:38

   Pandemics, China accountability, and the difficulty of extracting truth from opaque regimes

   1. MBMike Baker13:47

      the Chinese regime under Xi for anything, right? We haven't- we haven't forced the hand on- on the pandemic. And we're gonna have another pandemic, so it would be nice to know what the fuck actually happened, right? Not to just spirit up that one.

   2. JRJoe Rogan13:59

      Why do you think we're gonna have another pandemic? Everybody keeps saying that.

   3. MBMike Baker14:01

      Yeah, well, because-

   4. JRJoe Rogan14:02

      It's very disconcerting. We haven't had-

   5. MBMike Baker14:03

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan14:03

      ... one in a hundred years, not a legitimate one.

   7. MBMike Baker14:06

      Well, you know- you know, um, not to, um, toot my own horn, which I guess, you know, that would be an interesting thing if you could do that. (laughs) But, um, I- I ... it was a few years back when we were talking and I said, you know, we'll have a ... the next big thing will be a pandemic, right?

   8. JRJoe Rogan14:24

      Mm-hmm.

   9. MBMike Baker14:24

      And someone had pointed that out to me. I- I'd forgotten about it, but they sent it to me. And so my point back then, and the point now, is that it's just ... it's bound to happen, right? We're an increasingly shrinking globe, there's more people, we're in- in contact, we're ... you know, with- with everything that goes on, right? Whether it's in the natural based or just what we're doing in- in- in biotech and pharma, it's bound to happen. And so I guess you'd think that if we were serious minded, we would demand answers, and we wouldn't just allow the Xi regime to just shrug it off constantly, right?I mean, you know that there would be a massive, uh, debrief on this whole situation if it happened in the US or the UK or, you know, started in Australia, wherever, right?

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:09

       Mm-hmm.

   11. MBMike Baker15:10

       The rest of the world wouldn't let it go. But there's just some- there's something about it. We just ... we never push the Chinese regime to the degree that we need to to get an answer. And- and- and so s- and s- so the point being it's the same with the damn balloon.

   12. JRJoe Rogan15:23

       Is it because we don't think we'll ever get an answer and it's kind of a waste of time?

   13. MBMike Baker15:27

       That's p- (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan15:27

       'Cause it's not like they're transparent.

   15. MBMike Baker15:29

       That's part of it. Yeah, yeah. I think that's it.

   16. JRJoe Rogan15:30

       They would just not tell us the truth.

   17. MBMike Baker15:33

       Yeah, I think that's- that's part of it. It's like doing business in China. Um, if you're investing in- in- in a pseudo state-owned enterprise or whatever, you always know there's going to be three or four or five sets of books, right? It's always ... there's ... they're just very good at obfuscating, and they also think they don't need to answer. We don't care. They d- they don't care. And Xi believes that they are still on, despite some problems in their economy, they're still on the slow march to the top of the food chain. So he- he certainly doesn't care. Um, anyway.

   18. JRJoe Rogan16:04

       Do you think anything would be different if someone else was in office?

   19. MBMike Baker16:07

       Um, no, I- I don't think so. I don't think so. I'm not- I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say if we got, you know, if Trump or, you know, a Republican was in office that we'd get a different result. I don't think so. We've- we've had s- sort of a unsatisfactory relationship related to China for decades, right? We just ... uh, we haven't ... uh, no administration has really pushed back appropriately against their theft of economic intelligence or research and development or whatever. S- so all those things keep happening and

5. 16:38 – 50:53

   Critical minerals and the green-energy contradiction: mining vs. net-zero ambitions

   1. MBMike Baker16:38

      we never make the effort, right? I mean, look at the ... some of the things they're doing now. I've gotten bizarrely focused on the issue of- of, uh, we've talked about this before, critical minerals, right?

   2. JRJoe Rogan16:49

      Mm-hmm.

   3. MBMike Baker16:49

      Because one of the things that I find really interesting is this push towards, uh, uh, net zero, you know, carbon production and getting rid of fossil fuels, stopping fossil fuels. Well, you can't stop fossil fuels, um, and, uh, regulate mining out of existence at the same time. You've gotta- you've gotta do one or the other to, um, to fuel, you know, production, to fuel manufacturing, to heat people's homes, to produce whatever you're gonna produce. And so if we want to get rid of fossil fuels, by definition you have to increase mining of critical minerals, right? There's just no way a- no way around it. You ... if you do both, which the Biden administration is basically trying to do, they're ... I think they're placating their- their base by, yeah, we're gonna get rid of fossil fuels, and they're also making, um, decisions that are overregulating the permitting process for mining. And we have a lot of critical minerals available in this country, right? We got, you know, lithium, phosphate, which should be on the critical minerals list. We got all these things that- that we- we need if we're gonna continue to march away from fossil fuels. But the current administration just keeps, uh ... under this theory of keep it in the ground, right? And so ... and that's a big push by environmentalists, right? Keep it all in the ground, right? Lock it up.

   4. JRJoe Rogan18:10

      But how do they ... the only way to do that is to keep allowing what's essentially slave labor.... to extract cobalt and, and things from the Congo.

   5. MBMike Baker18:19

      Right. And you, you've talked about this and it absolutely-

   6. JRJoe Rogan18:21

      So, Siddarth Kara's book is insane.

   7. MBMike Baker18:24

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan18:24

      And the videos that he got when he was ... you know, he risked his life to get footage of this stuff in the Congo. It's-

   9. MBMike Baker18:30

      Right.

   10. JRJoe Rogan18:31

       It's horrendous. And anybody thinks that, in any way, that that's a good solution to our problems is, is fucking insane.

   11. MBMike Baker18:38

       Well, but that's where, that's where this is going. If, if the US continues and, and this is where I'll, I'll bring China in. And by the way, China, uh, they own or operate, I think it's like 15 of the 19 cobalt mines in, in, uh, the Democratic Republic of the Congo. So, it doesn't matter whether they're leading the way. And China controls 30 of the 50 critical minerals anyway, they produce more than anybody else, and they certainly control the refining process for most of the critical minerals. But it doesn't matter whether they're mining it in their own country, they've also been busy locking up opportunities elsewhere, right? To, to control these things. And so, you know, there's, there's very little pushback but if you, if you look at, at, uh ... if you look at one case, 'cause we've talked about cobalt, we've talked about lithium, which is here, we could be mining, but, you know, the government's, you know, shutting down opportunities to do that. Either by declaring things off-limits in terms of the land area or just making the permitting process so damn difficult. Um, but, uh, you know, phosphate, I mentioned that as an example, I got, I disappeared down some rabbit hole looking at all of this, it's not on the critical minerals list. Right? And there's 50 critical minerals. Now, phosphate, along with two other things, uh, nitrogen and pot- ... uh, potassium, are the key nutrients that you use for fertilizers, right? To feed the world, not just the US, right? You c- y- you can't do mass farming, right? And everybody wants to grow local but the reality is, is, it's a lot of people, right? And if you want, you know, the, the, the least privileged people around the globe to eat, you gotta do large-scale farming. You can't do that without phosphate. Right? And so, China is the number one producer of phosphate in the world. And r- I think Russia is fourth. And they produce like five times more combined, five times more than we do in the US. And yet, there is significant pushback here in the US, in part because it fits a Chinese narrative, and the Chinese have decided, the regime has, again, not the people, the Chinese regime has decided that one of the best ways to get what they want, in terms of US behavior, is not to try to influence, you know, the White House, but it's to reach out to local and state officials. So, here's where I'm going with this. When you look at, at decisions made at state level or local level, the Chinese regime and, and the, the, uh, ODNI, the Director of National Intelligence released a report, and they talked about this. They said that, that the Chinese are d- doubling down on their efforts to exert influence through a variety of means, um, environmental groups, um, encouraging litigation, right? Against mining operations or whatever it may be. Um, social influencers, to try to get a message out, right? That influences local and state regulators to do things such as saying, "No, gotta keep it in the ground." You know? "No, we don't want phosphate mining," as an example. Um, and that serves the purpose. Whether, whether an environmental group or whether a, uh, a group, um, that's out there that, that focuses on these things and, and files lawsuits constantly for environmental purposes, and then by the way, those, those lawyers, y- you know, usually recoup their funds from (laughs) , you know, what is called an Endangered Species Act that allows them to get their money back. So, you think, "Oh, wow, these lawyers are fighting and it's pro bono." No, it's not. They're getting paid. So ... but they're doing it whether they do it knowingly or whether they do it, uh, unwittingly, it still serves the purpose of the Chinese regime which is looking to say, "Keep it in the ground 'cause we wanna control all of this." And again, whether it's cobalt, whether it's lithium, whether it's phosphate, whatever it may be, it's, it's, it's a fascinating thing. But the, the point being that we can't pursue a green future and at the same time over-regulate, uh, the mining process. And, uh, it just doesn't work.

   12. JRJoe Rogan22:40

       China has so much influence on America, it's, it's, it's crazy how different the playing field is between like what we're allowed to do. Like, Americans can't own businesses in China, they can't own land in China, they can't buy property, but China can do all those things here. And they can influence our universities, they b- bring their students over here, their students siphon up data and information and oftentimes get caught. I mean, it's-

   13. MBMike Baker23:10

       (laughs) Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan23:10

       It's kind of crazy.

   15. MBMike Baker23:11

       Yeah, possibly. Yeah. Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan23:12

       Yeah. They get caught, right?

   17. MBMike Baker23:13

       Right. Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan23:13

       There's been quite a few of those cases.

   19. MBMike Baker23:15

       There have been.

   20. JRJoe Rogan23:15

       The, the di-

   21. MBMike Baker23:15

       But, but you think about-

   22. JRJoe Rogan23:16

       The sp-

   23. MBMike Baker23:17

       ... that's, uh, that's the tip of the iceberg, right? That's a, that's a, that's a small number that ... because it's, it's, it's incredibly heavy lift, right? A counterintelligence operation is, is really tough. And so, I look at that and I think, "Yeah, I'm, thank God we caught that person." But then you think, "Well, how many more there are out there?"

   24. JRJoe Rogan23:32

       Right.

   25. MBMike Baker23:33

       So ...

   26. JRJoe Rogan23:33

       That's the thing. It's like-

   27. MBMike Baker23:34

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan23:34

       ... how many of them are just more careful?

   29. MBMike Baker23:37

       Yeah. Yeah. It's, um ... it is interesting. Uh, in a way, we used to talk about during ... when (sighs) you know, when we were on the war on terror, right? Everybody's forgotten about that, uh, uh, you know, for the most part, although we probably should talk a little bit about-

   30. JRJoe Rogan23:49

       It's on the back burner.
6. 50:53 – 53:45

   Influence operations at the local level: land buys near bases, NGOs, and information warfare

   1. MBMike Baker50:53

      Um, yeah. There was one other thing I wanted to mention about how fascinating the, um, the- the- the our relationship with China is, and that is, uh, also since the last time we met. Um, (clicks tongue) the Chinese, uh ... A Chinese company, pseudo-independent supposedly, but there's very few of those, right? They've all have got some level of state sp- uh, sponsorship or cooperation. They bought like F- 300 and s- some-odd acres, right? In, um, uh, near Grand Forks, yeah. Um, and there's a Grand Forks Air Force Base, which is, you know, home to, uh, whatever, the th- 319th Fighter Wing, or Air Wing. And one of the things that the base does is it oversees in part the satellite systems that we run, right? Um, oversees surveillance drone, uh, operations to some degree. And so it's a very sensitive base. So I'll be damned if, uh, this Chinese group didn't buy up hundreds of acres of land about 12 miles from the (laughs) from this base. And they worked with the local officials, the local, uh, folks there, to say, "We wanna build a milling plant, a corn milling plant," right? The company was a food company. "And this is gonna be great. It's gonna give you like 200 local jobs. Let's build it." And then so the local officials were like, "Yeah, that sounds like a great idea." Well, it ran through the investment, um, CFIUS, the investment operation that looks at foreign investment to make sure that it's, it's above board and kosher. And CFIUS said, "Ah, we don't have any opinion. We ... it's not really our domain. We don't see anything wrong with this, so we can't cancel the, the potential purchase." And the Air Force, uh, had an other thought and they said, "Screw it. That's ... No, this is a threat to national security. You can't allow this to happen. You can't allow them to build this plant." Um, and so I'll be damned, in, in one of those rare moments of, of commonsense, they shut it down. They said, "You can't-

   2. JRJoe Rogan52:48

      Hmm.

   3. MBMike Baker52:48

      ... do this." And so ... And then that become a bit- a bit of an issue, and then started to see in Congress, you started to see all this talk about, "Well, oh my God, the Chinese are buying up farmland all across America." And-

   4. JRJoe Rogan52:58

      So it's Bill Gates, right?

   5. MBMike Baker52:59

      So it's Bill Gates, yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan53:00

      Yeah.

   7. MBMike Baker53:00

      Bill Gates and the Chinese. Now the largest ... to be fair, the largest landowners, um, uh, in terms of a foreign, uh, country is, uh, Canada. So Canada owns by far the most, uh, US farmland. But it was nice to see that there was some, um, reaction, some commonsense here, and, and th- that they don't do it. And that- and that's happening. It's increasing. So I think the bright spot here is that people are becoming more aware of the problem, and that not every time is nefarious, not every time ... You know, I'm not saying that. You know, it's not always gonna be nefarious. But you should at least be smart enough to look and see.

   8. JRJoe Rogan53:36

      Mm-hmm.

   9. MBMike Baker53:37

      It's like when we talk about, you know, Chinese equipment being put on regional telecoms all over the world, all over the country.

   10. JRJoe Rogan53:42

       Yeah.

   11. MBMike Baker53:43

       Uh, yeah. Little things like that we should probably pay attention to.

7. 53:45 – 58:23

   The Internet of Things as a surveillance surface: robot vacuums, Wi‑Fi imaging, and privacy realism

   1. JRJoe Rogan53:45

      I was watching this video where this guy was talking about, um, these Chinese devices like, uh, a Roomba.

   2. MBMike Baker53:54

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan53:54

      Like it was one of those type of deals. It was like a ... one of those robots that runs around your house-

   4. MBMike Baker53:59

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan53:59

      ... and vacuums things.

   6. MBMike Baker53:59

      Sure, yes. Yeah, we got two of them. Yep.

   7. JRJoe Rogan54:00

      And he said that it connects to a Chinese server, and it says when the thing is loading up, it's connecting to this Chinese server, and that it connects to your network. And this Chinese server has ... potentially has access to your network, and could choose to shut your network off, siphon information, do anything-

   8. MBMike Baker54:22

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan54:22

      ... it wants. It's like-

   10. MBMike Baker54:22

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan54:22

       ... the Internet of Things, right? So these things are connected b- via your network and connected to all the devices that are on your network. So if your cell phone's on it, wifi, whatever.

   12. MBMike Baker54:35

       Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, and that's been going on for some time, right? I mean, it's been ... The- the capabilities, the- the ability to gather intelligence, uh, from seemingly innocuous things, your, your fridge that talks to you or, or whatever, um, certainly obviously, and, and you've talked about this a lot, that, you know, the, the cellphones, um ...... and, and how hard you have to work to turn off applications that will do that. And most people just don't have the patience, right?

   13. JRJoe Rogan55:04

       Yeah.

   14. MBMike Baker55:04

       You got to really dig, right? If you want to prevent your, you know, 80-inch TV in your home from being switched on remotely as a monitor of what's going on in your home, you got to really dig through the layers on that TV to get to the point where you can switch that off, right?

   15. JRJoe Rogan55:18

       Mm-hmm.

   16. MBMike Baker55:18

       And I mean, I don't know, who's got the time nowadays? But, uh, yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan55:21

       And does that even work?

   18. MBMike Baker55:23

       Yeah. And does it ev-

   19. JRJoe Rogan55:23

       Is there not an override switch?

   20. MBMike Baker55:24

       And does it even work? Exactly.

   21. JRJoe Rogan55:26

       Robot vacuums can be used by hackers to spy on conversations, Singapore researchers say.

   22. MBMike Baker55:31

       (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan55:31

       LiDAR phone attack can take advantage of the device's built-in sensor to gather potentially sensitive data, and US computer scientists discovered to prevent misuse, team advise owners not to connect the robot vacuums to the internet.

   24. MBMike Baker55:44

       (sniffs) Wow.

   25. JRJoe Rogan55:45

       Hmm. Yeah.

   26. MBMike Baker55:46

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan55:47

       Jesus Christ. Could be used as a spy-on-pr- private conversations, university said on Monday. The method, called LiDAR phone, repurposes the LiDAR sensors that a robot vacuum cleaner normally uses for navigating around a home into laser-based microphone to eavesdrop on private conversations. Oh, terrific. (snaps fingers)

   28. MBMike Baker56:05

       (laughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan56:05

       Yeah.

   30. MBMike Baker56:06

       Yeah.
8. 58:23 – 1:05:59

   Afghanistan two years later: continued funding, Taliban diversion risk, and the withdrawal critique

   1. MBMike Baker58:23

      Yeah. I was doing the, whatever, the flossing, the, the Rumba. I don't even know what the dances are anymore. Um, but, um, anyway. Today, today, this is, look at me segueing. Uh, today is the two-year anniversary of the Afghan withdrawal.

   2. JRJoe Rogan58:36

      Hmm.

   3. MBMike Baker58:37

      Um, and, uh, I was, uh... I forget how I got started on that one. But I was, I was looking at total cost of what we've spent so far in Ukraine. And not only is it a two-year anniversary of the withdrawal from, uh, from Afghanistan, but other comparisons. Um, we've spent in Ukraine since, whenever, January 2022. So, you know, little over a year obviously, year and a half. We've dropped about n- upwards north of $80 billion there, right? More than that, in all honesty, 'cause I don't think we actually know what the full number is. I don't think the State Department knows. I don't think the Pentagon actually knows. They certainly don't know necessarily where all the money's going to, but we've dropped an 80 billion, say, let's call it that. Um, from 2001 to 2020, in Afghanistan, we spent about $73, $74 billion. So think about that.

   4. JRJoe Rogan59:34

      Wow.

   5. MBMike Baker59:34

      Almost 20 years in Afghanistan, we spent about $73 billion. About a year and a half in Ukraine, we've spent $80 billion plus. I'm not saying it's, you know, that we shouldn't be doing it or that we shou- you know, we, we should, you know, not be supporting the Ukrainian, uh, military. I'm just saying it's a fascinating fact, as far as I'm concerned. It just shows the level of support. You know, Ukraine is, is, is, uh, at the top of our, um... Uh, obviously we have- we don't give that much money to anybody, by far, right? And the last time that, uh, last time a, a European was country, uh, was at the top of, of, of the, of the aid list was, you know, the Marshall Plan, maybe. Um, uh, the Truman, uh, Administration. So it's pretty significant. But the Afghanistan thing, um, two years after the withdrawal, we've spent since then, since, since the withdrawal, we've spent, or the US government's allocated about $8 billion. Now the interesting point there is, who's been in control there in Afghanistan since, you know, the withdrawal? It's the Taliban. So we have allocated $8 billion to various humanitarian groups, charities into Afghanistan and no real, no real controls over whether the vast majority of that money-... or half of that money, or whatever, is going to the Taliban. And we can-

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:01:01

      Really?

   7. MBMike Baker1:01:02

      Yeah. And you can guarantee that it's being siphoned off. I mean-

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:01:04

      How does that work?

   9. MBMike Baker1:01:06

      Well, um, I'm glad you asked that. Um, it wasn't that long ago, there was a ... 'cause there, there is an inspector general. They call him the Sp- uh, C- the Special In- uh, the Special Inspector General for Afghan-Afghanistan Reconstruction, SIGAR. Um, and he, uh, testified before Congress, uh, I think, uh, much earlier this year, it might have been the, the, the, uh, January, February timeframe, about Afghanistan. And, um, he said, "I cannot sit here and tell the Sub- the, the Committee or the American taxpayer that w- we are not funding the Taliban through th- this money that is being allocated for Afghanistan."

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:01:56

       Whoa.

   11. MBMike Baker1:01:56

       Oh.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:01:56

       Okay.

   13. MBMike Baker1:01:57

       There you go.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:01:57

       "Unfortunately, as I sit here today, I cannot assure this committee that the American taxpayer, uh, or the American taxpayer that we are not currently funding the Taliban," he continued, "nor can I assure you that the Taliban are not diverting the money we are sending to the intended recipients, which are the poor Afghan people." Wow.

   15. MBMike Baker1:02:15

       Yeah. So think about that. 20 years in Afghanistan, (laughs) we leave in a, in a fucking mess of a withdrawal, right, which never should have taken place the way it did, and we've still got ... there's maybe a h- 150, 155,000, uh, special immigrant visa applicants trapped in Afghanistan waiting to get out. We don't kn- we have no idea how many, um, of our former Afghan allies, right, whomever it may be, uh, w- are still there trapped, trying to get out. Right?

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:02:46

       And how many have been killed?

   17. MBMike Baker1:02:47

       And how many have b- exactly. How many have been killed? And in the meantime, w- now, now again, you know, the idea at the top level, you know the theory, we wanna help the Afghan people. We can't just abandon all those poor people, so we're gonna use the money to give it to humanitarian groups, and they're gonna try to feed them and everything. And yet there's no control over this, this fucking thing. And- and so that's, that's a problem that, again, should be talked about. But we don't, w- you know, we get lost in these, in these issues of the day that, that aren't, you know, really impactful I guess at the end of the day. Maybe they're impactful to people's, you know, individual lives. I get it, whatever. What, what the hell? But it is stunning that then the inspector general will come out and say he can't get, um, sufficient, uh, information from State Department and from USAID that's responsible in part for allocating these funds. Um, and in pure typical Washington DC, uh, bullshit, uh, the reason is because the State Department says, "Well, you know, we withdrew from Afghanistan, so therefore the, the, the inspector general, you know, doesn't have the same job. We're not reconstructing Afghanistan anymore, so we don't have to respond to his request for information." So (laughs) which is, you know, it's this, it's like this bizarre ... but we're gonna continue to give him money out. And meanwhile the Taliban's just shitting all over the people, right? Um, if y- forget about women's rights anymore. They've shut down secondary schools. They've shut down ... there's certainly no universities. They've done ... they, they've, they've restricted them basically to, you know, uh, women to, and girls to sitting at home. Um, they, they, uh, very restricted movement outside. They have to be fully covered obviously. Um, recently they just, they just shut down all beauty salons, right, which was one of the few places women could work and only women could go into. Uh, women can't go into parks, right? They can't g- it's, it's, it's insane when you think about it that way and you think about (laughs) y- but we're giving them money. Again, not for a bad reason, right? I mean, w- we wanna help, um, the, the, the, the people that are suffering most-

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:04:59

       How does that money-

   19. MBMike Baker1:04:59

       ... but we have no control.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:05:00

       Right. What, what happens to that money? Like, how does, how could that money possibly get to the Taliban? Like, what's going on?

   21. MBMike Baker1:05:06

       Well, it has to go through, um, it has to go through humanitarian groups, NGOs, um, charities, and at some point the idea is it, it's either funds or, or goods, right, that have to be in the country, that have to get to the country to be dispersed, and the Taliban controls everything, right? Now, by the way, we also allocated-

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:05:29

       (sniffs)

   23. MBMike Baker1:05:29

       ... uh, a handful of billions of dollars to recapitalize the Central Bank there in Afghanistan. Well, that would seem to be, maybe I'm wrong, but that would seem to be (laughs) basically putting money directly into the hands of the Taliban. Um, and so it's, it's a problem. You know, they're looking into it. But, uh, I mean, there's, there's so many weird ... uh, if y- if you spend too much time looking at the way the government sometimes operates and going f- switching back to Ukraine and saying, "Okay, um, w- (laughs) as, as an example,

9. 1:05:59 – 1:21:45

   Ukraine endgame problems: costs, sanctions inconsistencies, and a war without an exit ramp

   1. MBMike Baker1:05:59

      one of the things we're not doing is we're not fully sanctioning Russian oil, because why? It's a political reason. We don't want the Russian oil taken off the market and driving gas prices up, which is bad for politics, right?" So meanwhile, w- one of the few real, you know, significant sources of revenue for the Russians is oil. That allows them to keep going. So we're spending, what, $80 billion on Ukraine? At the same time, we're not doing everything we can to shut down the ability of the Russian, uh, government to make money by sanctioning oil the way we should, and therefore, um, (laughs) they continue marching on. It's ... I don't know. I, I just find it all, you know, going back to that original thought, you know, it's like we're gonna stop fossil fuels but we're also gonna keep all the minerals in the ground. How about that?

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:06:51

      But the, the Russia thing seems to be ... the Russia-Ukraine thing, thing seems to be even crazier than the Afghanistan thing in terms of long-term cost-... and in terms of not having any solution of how this could ever possibly end.

   3. MBMike Baker1:07:09

      Yeah. No, I- I- yeah, 100% I agree with that. It's- we don't have a- we don't have a, whatever they want to call it, an exit ramp, an, uh, end game. Um, there is talk about a peace settlement, primarily from Zelenskyy, right? He's been, he's been making a real effort. He's been going out and trying to garner support from a variety of countries for his, uh, or for the Ukraine government's peace plan, which basically calls for return of all their lands, including Crimea, and obviously the exit of all Russian forces. And so, he's out there talking and saying, "This is what needs to happen. This- we need to gather, uh, international support for this peace plan if it's going to work." Which is not incorrect, right? Meanwhile, you know, the Chinese are- are trying to, you know, play top dog in the world stage by proposing their own peace plan. Um, you know, Saudis are making an effort. So, but there is no- there's no exit strategy, really, to speak of.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:08:05

      But hasn't Zelenskyy openly stated that he wants Putin to step down?

   5. MBMike Baker1:08:10

      Well, um, yeah. I mean, he's- he's expressed that desire, but you also think about they've declared him a war criminal, so what's- what's Putin's, you know, what- what- what's Putin's, uh, motivation for- for stopping if he reaches a peace settlement and then is basically, "That's it. Okay, we're done. Uh, there's peace. We've given back all the land, and I'm a war criminal, and now at some point, if I step outside the country, I'll be arrested and..." But I mean, that's- that- that's a thought process. So, um, I don't think, uh, unless Zelenskyy budges a little bit, right? Um, which, you know, again, from an emotive standpoint, why should he, right? But unless he budges to some degree, uh, I don't see that they're going to get, uh, a settlement where the two sides agree. Because Putin, I don't- I don't, still, I've said this before, but I don't imagine the- the Russian government giving back Crimea, right? It's-

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:09:07

      Right.

   7. MBMike Baker1:09:07

      It's, you know, too important from their perspective, from a military perspective.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:09:11

      And when did they take over Crimea? What year was that?

   9. MBMike Baker1:09:13

      Uh, it was- wasn't that '14? 2014, I think. Yeah. Maybe- maybe '08? Maybe 2014. I don't know. It's- it's ancient history now, and nobody cared back then, right? Really. Really. There was- there was some angry memos written, um, Obama talked about it at the time and said... But nobody did anything. Just like when the troops moved into eastern Ukraine, nobody really cared, nobody did anything, nobody was out there planting flags in their gardens and saying, "We stand with Ukraine." And in fact, Ukraine was viewed as a highly corrupt place. You know, um, where, you know, a Ukrainian energy company would hire the son of the vice president. (laughs)

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:09:52

       Yeah.

   11. MBMike Baker1:09:52

       Oh. Um, but at the same time, you can't, you know, you c- we- we can't allow Putin's, uh, adventurism, right, to stand. You've got to... So, I do believe we- we- we have to support, and without our support, without our NATO allies' support and others, they wouldn't have been able to accomplish what they've done, right? And now whether they can make a counteroffensive, um, a significant victory or not still remains to be seen, 'cause the Russians, you know, they used the opportunity during the lull to really dig in, right? They've created almost their own Maginot Line, although it's more effective than the old Maginot Line. So they- they've created that along their- their- their, uh, perimeter, and it's been a real tough slog. You know, the Ukrainian counteroffensive has gone much slower than people thought, and everybody was all very emotive. "Oh, it's going to be a counteroffensive. They're going to sweep through. It's gonna be done here soon." And I don't think people still have their heads around the fact that this is- there's- there's no exit out there, right, yet. So what are we going to do? Are we gonna continue to just allocate every- every couple of months we'll say, "Well, we're putting another $800 million in there."? Um, you know, we've already, you know, approved F-16s, Abrams tanks, Patriot missile systems. I mean, HIMARS. We're doing everything possible. Intelligence support, satellite support, um, and again, rightly so. You know, Putin needs to be driven out of there if possible. But at the same time, they need a logical thought process about how you have a settlement, if there's going to be one. And-

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:11:23

       And what are your feelings about NATO's encroaching on Russian territory, like getting closer and closer? Like the treaty at the- the end of the Soviet Union stated that- that NATO would not move any closer to Russia, but yet they have.

   13. MBMike Baker1:11:43

       And yet they have, yeah. And it's- it had just the opposite effect, right? I mean, what Putin did, because he's, you know, I think he- he imagined, and he had bad intel, but he imagined that this- this incursion, this invasion was going to, uh, show the cracks in NATO, right? And it had the opposite. It grew NATO. And so, um, look, he legitimately believes ... You have to understand the motivations of- of whoever's on the other side of the table. And with Putin, he legitimately believed that, you know, the collapse of the Soviet Union was a terrible, terrible tragedy, right? And he's been trying to recreate, in some fashion, the whole thing. So, um, he looks at that, and that's just further, um ... It reinforces his mindset, which is, in his mind, I don't think he's, you know, I don't think he's, um, making this up. In his mind, he believes, you know, this is an attack on the motherland. Now, it's bullshit. It's not. But that's how he pitches it, and that's how he tries to keep the population behind him, by saying, "This is- this is the West against us." Right? And-

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:12:45

       There's no argument for that, you don't think? The- with NATO encroaching?

   15. MBMike Baker1:12:50

       Um, well, I think every country has got the right to, you know, take actions to protect their own national security.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:12:55

       Right. Like if- if Russia started moving military bases into Mexico.

   17. MBMike Baker1:13:00

       (laughs) Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:13:02

       Right? Which is kind of similar to what NATO has done.

   19. MBMike Baker1:13:05

       Well, think about N- oh, the Cuban Missile Crisis.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:13:07

       Right.

   21. MBMike Baker1:13:07

       I mean, that was the same concept. There was no- no difference, right?

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:13:09

       Yes.

   23. MBMike Baker1:13:09

       So, yes. I mean, and that's ... And so we ... You have to be...... pragmatic about the world that you live in. And you have to understand, and that requires good intelligence, you have to understand the plans and intentions and motivations of whoever, again, is on the other side of the table, or- or whatever dictator or whatever leader you're- you're dealing with. And, uh, I think that i- i- is it helpful in reaching a peace settlement? Look, if- if all your goal is, and maybe we need- you know, maybe we need to say that. Okay, is the US goal to drive Russia completely out and reclaim all the lands that they had taken since 2000, right? Um, then fine, that's our stated goal, and we just keep doing everything possible to make that happen, short of boots on the ground. But, um, it would seem to me that our goal should also be, uh, instead of that, maybe we find a way to end the war, right? Typically, you get into a war and you want to end it, right? I mean, that's ... you don't want it to go on for 20 years. So-

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:14:16

       Unless-

   25. MBMike Baker1:14:16

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:14:17

       ... you are supplying weapons and making billions of dollars. Then you might-

   27. MBMike Baker1:14:21

       Well, yes.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:14:21

       ... want to keep it going-

   29. MBMike Baker1:14:21

       There is that.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:14:22

       ... for a little while.

Episode duration: 2:43:39