EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,009 words- 0:00 – 2:51
Painkiller’s impact: personal losses and why Berg took the project
- PBPeter Berg
(drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.
- NANarrator
The Joe Rogan Experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music plays) What's happening? Good to see you.
- PBPeter Berg
Good to see you, my friend.
- JRJoe Rogan
Your show is fantastic. It's really good, man. Uh-
- PBPeter Berg
Thank you.
- JRJoe Rogan
... Painkiller on Netflix, can't recommend it enough. Um, I'm only two episodes deep. Uh, I started the third today. It's so fucking good, dude. And it's so dis- it's so disturbing, because it's true.
- PBPeter Berg
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, it's an accurate account of how this all happened, and it's just ... it makes you so uncomfortable to think that there's people in the world that would do what the Sackler family did.
- PBPeter Berg
Do you know anyone who's, who's-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- PBPeter Berg
... gone down from, from opioids or Oxy?
- JRJoe Rogan
Quite a few.
- PBPeter Berg
Yeah, same here.
- JRJoe Rogan
Quite a few people.
- PBPeter Berg
Um, when, uh, when they first came to me, uh, and asked me if I was interested, my buddy, Eric Newman, who, who put the whole thing together, uh, you know, said, "You wanna do something about the Sacklers? Do you know who the Sacklers are?" And I did. I knew they were the, you know, family behind OxyContin. Uh, and he said, "Are you interested?" And I, I started thinking, and I started counting the people I know who've died or whose kids have died, uh, because of OxyContin and opioids. And I, I quickly got off on both fingers, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
(sighs)
- PBPeter Berg
And then I, I started thinking about, um, some of my heroes, my art- my artistic heroes, um, Chris Cornell, Tom Petty, and, like, one of my big heroes was Prince.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PBPeter Berg
I was a huge, huge Prince fan. I, I went to school in Minneapolis when he was coming up. Uh, I was an extra in Purple Rain back in the day, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- PBPeter Berg
... on First Avenue in, in Minneapolis. And, you know, those three guys. When, when Prince died, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PBPeter Berg
... Prince was, he was su- had such a, a ... he was legendary for his work ethic and his lifestyle, no alcohol and no swearing, and just incredible work ethic.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PBPeter Berg
And the fact that OxyContin got him-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PBPeter Berg
... and that, that really kinda fucked with me. So when they came to me and, you know, started talking to me about doing something about the Sacklers, I was like, "Yeah, I'm all in." Um, and the more I dug into it, and the more experts and writers who have been covering this, uh, epidemic for so long, the more I learned. Um, you know, I'm not necessarily the biggest conspiracy guy of all time. I, I do, I'll, I'll ... if the proof's there, I, I'm, I'm down. But the more I learned about the Sacklers and how they maneuvered what is essentially just heroin in, like, a little M&M pill, you know, how they were so artful and so good at manipulating the system, uh, I was shocked, and I, I was all in on Painkiller.
- 2:51 – 5:53
Sales tactics and “heroin in an M&M”: titration, incentives, and deception
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I'm glad you were all in, 'cause people need to know this story, and a lot of people aren't gonna watch a documentary and, you know, they're not gonna read about it. This is a very entertaining show that shows accurately how this went down. And, you know, there's a, there's a moment, and I don't wanna give too much away, but there's this one moment where this ethical doctor confronts the salesgirl, and that's a very, very, very powerful moment.
- PBPeter Berg
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Because that, uh, the ethical doctor, who knows everything about opiates, is essentially explaining to this very young girl, who's just a beautiful salesgirl-
- PBPeter Berg
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... that you're selling heroin. Y- w- ... uh, this is heroin that's indistinguishable to the body as her- it's heroin, it's just you're calling it a different thing. And this idea that it's only 1% of the people who have problems with it is ... those numbers are all lies.
- PBPeter Berg
All lies.
- JRJoe Rogan
They're al- they're always lies. They lie about how many people died, they lie about how many people get addicted. It's all a lie. And th- if they can keep lying and not face any repercussions, they'll keep lying, 'cause that's ... th- they almost have an obligation to their shareholders to do, to do that.
- PBPeter Berg
Yeah, and in this case, they didn't even have shareholders. It was-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PBPeter Berg
... it was a private company.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's crazy.
- PBPeter Berg
Uh, the, uh, Richard Sackler and his, his uncles were making all the money. They completely lied. I mean, they were doctors, and they-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PBPeter Berg
... knew how powerful the, the opioid dosage was. They, and they knew there would ... And, and what else is crazy is they knew that if they just kept ... they, they would make so much more money by what they call titrating up, right? So, you know, we put you on 10 milligrams of OxyContin because your, you blew out your back in the gym. And it works for a bit, and then when it doesn't, we're like, "Oh, well, we just gotta, we gotta, we gotta kick you up."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PBPeter Berg
"So let's put you on 20, and then let's put you on 40." And they got up to 85 milligram OxyContins.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whew.
- PBPeter Berg
They called them OxyCoffins. That was in- the word on the street. And these, these reps, these cute little reps, these pretty little college grad- you know, graduates who were just looking to make some money, were paid based, uh, bonuses based on the amount of milligrams in the pill. So then I'm, I'm trying to convince you, if, if I'm a rep and, and you're a doctor, just to kick it up, Doc. Prescribe 20 or 40 or 85 milligrams, and everybody will make some more money.
- JRJoe Rogan
Phew.
- PBPeter Berg
And that was the game that the Sacklers were playing. And like, you know, I've said, like, I'm, I'm down with capitalism. No problem. Like, make money, do it. And if, if you just look at the Sacklers, you know, from a capitalistic perspective and you apply, you know, uh, rules of capitalism and you undergrade, they get A+. They were fucking good at making money. You put, like, that much morality into the equation, and these are some evil human beings.
- 5:53 – 7:55
Settlement, immunity, and a Supreme Court twist
- JRJoe Rogan
It, it's unquestionably evil. And what's even more evil is they got away with it. They paid off ... They had to give away a, a certain amount of money. I think it's six billion do- See if you can find the settlement.
- PBPeter Berg
Si- a little b- around six.
- JRJoe Rogan
And bec- uh, uh, now they can't be prosecuted. So they essentially bought their way out of going to jail for directly being responsible for the deaths of-... how many people?
- PBPeter Berg
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hundreds of thousands?
- PBPeter Berg
So, it w- in, um, the most bizarre coincidence I've ever experienced in, in my years of being in the business, the day Painkiller came out, the Supreme Court paused that decision. Have you heard this?
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- PBPeter Berg
It's a, it's a fascinating story. You should read about this. The day we came out, it was about 12 days ago now, the Supreme Court said, "Hold up. You, you, you cannot cut a deal."
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- PBPeter Berg
Yeah, there it is.
- JRJoe Rogan
"Supreme Court blocks Purdue Pharma's $6 billion Sackler opioid settlement. The justices will examine if bankruptcy court can force claimants to sign away their legal rights in a settlement."
- PBPeter Berg
So, let me break it down quick, 'cause this is actually fascinating for anyone who's paying attention. The deal that they cut, Per- Purdue cut, was $6 billion. "We're gonna pay $6 billion to all the victims of OxyContin, but we're gonna do that over the next two decades. We'll br- we're gonna parcel it out." And Sacklers have maybe $15 bill in the bank, give or take. So, they, they're just counting on interest rates to pay that $6 billion. And the deal they had cut said, "We'll pay you the six, but you can never, there's no more. And you can never come after any more of our money, and you can never come after us for any criminal charges." So, they were basically buying their way to safety for $6 bill. And they, that deal was taken.
- JRJoe Rogan
(sighs)
- PBPeter Berg
The Supreme Court just said, "Hold up. Not so fast. We're not gonna accept that deal. You may have to pay more, and we may go after you." So now, the potential for them to face true bankruptcy, and maybe more, is on the table.
- 7:55 – 12:07
Docudrama accuracy, ‘hammer the abusers,’ and Netflix legal fears
- JRJoe Rogan
How accurate do we know, like, some of the ... I know you, this is a docudrama, right?
- PBPeter Berg
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Is that w- how you would describe it?
- PBPeter Berg
Sure.
- JRJoe Rogan
Or b- based on a real-life, uh, real-life events.
- PBPeter Berg
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
But some of the things that he, that Sackler said, in both the, the older Sackler and the younger Sackler, Richard and ... What was his dad's name?
- PBPeter Berg
Um, Arthur.
- JRJoe Rogan
Arthur.
- PBPeter Berg
His uncle.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, well, his uncle, sorry. Both of those, the, the statements that, they're, they're so horrific. Uh, well, do we know they definitely said that?
- PBPeter Berg
Right. Well, so there, y- yes, there's so many horrific things they said. One of the things we know that they did said, which was like, like, their ... One of the original strategies that Purdue Pharma had, that they were advised to, to adopt by, you know, their lawyers and their advisors and their marketing guys, when they realized that people were dying, that kids were s- crushing up OxyContin and snorting it and getting addicted and overdosing, when they realized it was being misused this way, their strategy was, quote, "Hammer the abusers." "Hammer the abusers." So, you're Joe, your 19-year-old daughter's just dropped dead of an OxyContin overdose. The response of Purdue basically is, "Well, your daughter was a drug addict."
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, God.
- PBPeter Berg
"Your daughter was a drug addict. I'm, I'm so sorry for your loss, but your daughter was a drug addict. Don't blame us." "Hammer the abusers."
- JRJoe Rogan
And that was literally r- said out loud, or written down? Like, how did they-
- PBPeter Berg
That was the strategy, and to blame abuse on addic- uh, addicts, and to say, "Anyone who has a problem with OxyContin, it's, it's not our fault. They're just drug addicts. It's not our fault, you know? We gave ... Yeah, we gave them heroin, but they're a- but they're, they're abusers."
- JRJoe Rogan
"Hammer on the abusers. Mass. attorney general alleges Purdue Pharma tried to shift blame for opioid addiction."
- PBPeter Berg
(exhales)
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, so think about that. Think about you being the parent. And if you s- you know, see the show, we open each episode with, uh, a parent. You know, we, we were told right, right when I got ready to lock the show, I gotta, I was told, I had to get on a Zoom with all the legal, you know, from Netflix and others, because they're ... The Sacklers are really good lawyers. You know, Giuliani was, was one of their main att- attorneys. Mary Jo White, I don't know if you know who she is. No.
- PBPeter Berg
Um, she's a, uh, very powerful attorney. And others. Uh, so they, there, you know, there's a lot of fear about being sued, you know? And I'm, I, I have my talking points here about-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- PBPeter Berg
... what I'm not supposed to say. (laughs) Uh, so again-
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- PBPeter Berg
... e- everything I'm saying is, is-
- JRJoe Rogan
Stuff that's been proven.
- PBPeter Berg
... you know, more or less my theory and things that have been backed up by books like Painkiller by the very talented Barry Meier, who wrote, investigative reporter for The Times who wrote it. But we were told by legal that we had to put disclaimers in front of each, uh, episode. "You know, what you're about to see is based on fact, but some of the facts have been changed, and you know, some, uh, so it's not all true. We've changed some of the facts." Um, and that didn't really sit right with me, because yes, we have interpreted things and changed some things, but the reality is, the Sacklers did what they did. And I didn't, I thought, like, just putting a standard disclaimer would be kinda letting them off a bit. Um, and I was thinking about it. I'm like, "Well, what if we had, uh, a 50-year-old woman sitting ... We open and show a 50-year-old woman staring at the camera, and she reads the disclaimer exactly as legal says. You know, "What you see, um, is based on fact, but some of it has been fictionalized." And then she stops and she says, "But what, what hasn't been fictionalized is that my 22-year-old son, Tommy," and she holds up a picture, "died of an OxyContin overdose." And, um, that was, you know, the kind of thing that was, I think, very important to me and to all the makers of the show, that as, i- if we were gonna veer from the truth and we were gonna potentially incur the wrath of the Purdue legal, we did it in a way that never let them off the hook.
- 12:07 – 14:00
How opioids became ‘normal’: granny’s prescription and the pipeline to fentanyl
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm. Yeah. I like that. Um, it's ... (exhales) It's so weird how many people are on it.... um, I had a conversation with a friend of mine about his mom. His mom's 90 and, um, you know, she's had some health issues. Um, but could you imagine when we were kids if, uh, you told me that, uh, your friend's mom was on heroin?
- PBPeter Berg
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
And that we had to get her more heroin and the doctor's not ... There's, there's something wrong with her prescription. So, what had happened was, um, the pharmacist, the doctor had screwed up and prescribed more pills, uh, verbally than he wrote it down on paper.
- PBPeter Berg
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, he told her, "You have to take two a day," you know, and, "This is supposed to be good for," you know, whatever it is, "30, 60 days." But he wrote the wrong number. He... instead of like, 180, he wrote 90 or something. I don't, I don't remember what the number was.
- PBPeter Berg
He over-prescribed by accident?
- JRJoe Rogan
He under-prescribed by accident.
- PBPeter Berg
Oh, under, okay, okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
And so they were thinking someone was stealing her pills.
- PBPeter Berg
Oh.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, there was this like, she doesn't have enough. Like, it gets to the end of the month and she's outta pills and they're calling the doctor and the doctor's like, "What i- what's going on?" They're like, "I don't know what's happening. Is someone stealing her pills?" So, there's this fear in the house that someone's stealing the pills.
- PBPeter Berg
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, they figured out that's not what the case was. The case was it was just a mistake. The doctor inadvertently prescribed more in terms of take three a day every d- or two a day every day.
- PBPeter Berg
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
But he just didn't give her enough pills to do that. Uh, but it's ... But you're ... Imagine your 90-year-old mom is jonesing?
- PBPeter Berg
(laughs) Oh, god.
- JRJoe Rogan
Because that's what's going on.
- PBPeter Berg
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, imagine you're like, "I gotta get grandma heroin."
- PBPeter Berg
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
"Hey, bro, you wanna come with me? Do you have your gun?"
- PBPeter Berg
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
"We're gonna go get grandma heroin."
- PBPeter Berg
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, are you fucking crazy? Imagine that thought. No one would think that, that ... When we were kids, no one would think that was normal. "My ... I gotta get my grandma heroin. She's uncomfortable."
- 14:00 – 16:23
From ‘Heroin for coughs’ to modern pharma marketing: the long history
- PBPeter Berg
Well, yeah. And, and, you know, one of, one of the things that it, it ... I think it, like episode three or four, the, the patriarch of the Sackler family, Arthur Sackler, who started, got the whole ball rolling, and he ... You know, back in the day, they actually did prescribe heroin. We found all these great old ads for heroin in cough syrup.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- PBPeter Berg
Cocaine for, you know, um, a f- uh, fever. Um, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, codeine used to be in cough syrup, right?
- PBPeter Berg
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Used to be able to get when I was a kid.
- PBPeter Berg
Well, you still can get it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PBPeter Berg
But there were literally ads that said, "Heroin for a cough."
- JRJoe Rogan
(sighs)
- PBPeter Berg
And w- ... Like, the whole history of how medicine started being marketed and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Heroin, look at that. (laughs)
- PBPeter Berg
Right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Bayer Pharmaceutical products.
- PBPeter Berg
Like, like-
- JRJoe Rogan
The people who brought you aspirin.
- PBPeter Berg
And, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
(sighs)
- PBPeter Berg
... if you look up some of the old, um ... See if you can find the, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Look at it, look how they describe it, "The cheapest specific for the relief of coughs."
- PBPeter Berg
Right. So, this was real.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- PBPeter Berg
This was real shit, and this is what, you know, doctors like Arthur Sackler, who sp- ... was Richard Sackler's uncle and is, you know, arguably the go- the godfather of OxyContin and opioids. Th- they were, they were sending this stuff out. They ... Your, your child's having trouble sleeping? Put a little liquid morphine on a blanket and let him suck on it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Geez.
- PBPeter Berg
This was happening, like, our grandparents were around for this.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, my god. Cocaine tooth drops? You see that? Look at that. That's insane.
- PBPeter Berg
But that's real.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, my god. Instantaneous cure. You don't give a fuck about your teeth.
- PBPeter Berg
No, you feel good.
- JRJoe Rogan
You're trying to start a business. (laughs)
- 16:23 – 24:29
What Oxy feels like—and why it hooks: warmth, relief, and then the crash
- PBPeter Berg
And in comes this beautiful girl with a, with a brochure that says, "OxyContin, the one to start with, the one to stay with," and you've never heard of it, so you just start, you know. And it ... The, here's the thing about OxyContin. Have you ever taken an OxyContin?
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- PBPeter Berg
I took it once, recreationally, so-
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you do it before you started doing this?
- PBPeter Berg
Yes. I did about, I don't know, eight years ago. A friend of mine had one, and she's like, "You gotta try this."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Jesus Christ.
- PBPeter Berg
I'm like, "Okay."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- PBPeter Berg
Try anything once, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PBPeter Berg
Try it. Took it. It was fantastic.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- PBPeter Berg
Oh, my god. It was like-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- PBPeter Berg
It was like being dropped in a, a vat of warm honey. That's how I'd best describe it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- PBPeter Berg
And I'm like, "Holy shit. Get this away from me."
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- PBPeter Berg
Right? Like, it's ... It works.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PBPeter Berg
Heroin works.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PBPeter Berg
Yeah, we've talked to people who've done heroin and they described the feeling, the actual moment of the high. Okay. Yes. It, it's a, it's a powerful experience. If you've got horrific pain and you take an OxyContin or a fentanyl, it's probably gonna make that pain go away and you're gonna feel really good for a little while, right? For a little while and then you're, you're not gonna feel so good. You know? I, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
And then you're gonna want it again.
- PBPeter Berg
And you're gonna want it again and again.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then your body becomes addicted to it.
- PBPeter Berg
And then it's not fun. And, and I, you know, took it and recognized, okay, yeah, there's, there's a lot of power in this little pill. No, thank you.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- PBPeter Berg
And, and I'm fortunate I don't have an addictive gene, but I could easily see how ... And, and look, the Sacklers knew this. They know ... They all knew how powerful that, that product was, and they knew that if I put it in you, you're gonna feel ... As they say, as Richard Sackler says, uh, "Life is about running away from pain."... towards pleasure. If you feel pain, that's, right, the human condition is we wanna stay away from pain.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 24:29 – 35:33
Regulatory capture: FDA approval, Curtis Wright, and the hotel-room mystery
- PBPeter Berg
But, um, you know, and, and, and the other...... p- I think, big part of the story that, that surprised me was the FDA, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PBPeter Berg
And the FDA's role in, in opioid approvals. And in the case of OxyContin, uh, you know, we think about, like, the FDA as this big giant bureaucratic organization. And, you know, you'd think ... We were talking about stem cells a little bit earlier-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PBPeter Berg
... that if you want, uh, uh, to get an approval for a drug, you know, and well, okay, you gotta send it to the FDA. And it's gonna be reviewed by this massive board of scientists and, you know, experts, and they're gonna make a determination after careful analysis, right? That's not how it works. And in the case of OxyContin, the whole approval pro- process came down to this one guy, this guy named Curtis Wright. And, uh, Curtis Wright, when the ... And, um, Purdue Pharma needed the FDA to appro- They'd spent $30 million developing this drug. It ... The whole business of drug developing is fascinating. But they were all in, and they needed this drug. And to keep the company alive, they needed the FDA to approve it. And this guy was like, "I can't approve this. This is heroin in a pill. No." Well, and they kept trying to get him to approve it, and they kept trying to get ... And they started trying to, like, pump his ego up. They started writing articles with him. They started trying to j- you know, schmooze him and charm him. He wouldn't approve it. Finally, and no one knows the facts, they took him to a hotel on the East Coast. Purdue Pharma took Curtis Wright of the FDA, spent a couple of days in this hotel room. They came out of the hotel room with an approval, with the language, OxyContin, quote, "is believed to be non-addictive." "Is believed." If you think about that language, it had never been used in an approval process before, ever. Made no sense. "Is believed." Not, is not, but, "is believed" to not be addictive. A year later, he leaves the FDA where he's making probably $50 grand a year. Where does he go work? Purdue Pharma.
- JRJoe Rogan
Ugh.
- PBPeter Berg
For $400-plus thousand a year.
- JRJoe Rogan
Ugh.
- PBPeter Berg
They bought the approval.
- JRJoe Rogan
But the two days in the hotel, what the fuck did they do?
- PBPeter Berg
Nobody knows.
- JRJoe Rogan
And who agrees to stay in a hotel for two days with those people?
- PBPeter Berg
So I, I wrote a scene in (laughs) in Painkiller. I ... We, we were putting it together, uh, where we imagined what happened in that hotel.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. (laughs)
- PBPeter Berg
And I had, like, everything from monkeys-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- PBPeter Berg
... to, like, like, kickboxing, Thai kickboxing massage parlors-
- JRJoe Rogan
Ugh.
- PBPeter Berg
... to, like, everything we ... And, like, I wanted to film the most debaucherous two-day ... Like, anything your mind could think of. Like, the craziest-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PBPeter Berg
... of the cra- right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Water sports.
- PBPeter Berg
All of it.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- PBPeter Berg
All of it. Lot ... Like, like, jet water sports.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- PBPeter Berg
Like with the ... Where the ... where the ... where they spray your house down-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- PBPeter Berg
... with sandblasting wa-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 35:33 – 39:29
Reputation laundering: museums, naming rights, and the Nobel legacy parallel
- PBPeter Berg
Dude, do you ever, have you ever been-
- JRJoe Rogan
Museums.
- PBPeter Berg
... in the, in the Metropolitan Museum of Art's, uh, Temple of Dendur? The giant glass, it's the biggest exhibit in the MET in New York City. And that was the Sackler Wing.
- JRJoe Rogan
(exhales)
- PBPeter Berg
And I would go in there when we were making the show, and I would, it was this giant, it's, it's, it's on the, um, north side of the MET. It's y- it's a massive art wing. And you go in there and it says, "The Sackler Wing," and you go in there and there's parents running around with their kids. The last time I was there, I saw a guy get on his hands and knees and propose. And it's just this happy, joyful room built on OxyContin.
- JRJoe Rogan
(sighs)
- PBPeter Berg
And two, three months ago, they took the name down. They finally took the name down.
- JRJoe Rogan
Finally?
- PBPeter Berg
Yeah, they fin-
- JRJoe Rogan
After all these years.
- PBPeter Berg
Yeah, so they've taken... And, and this is the thing that like, what Arthur Sackler cared more about than anything, which is like the same as Alfred Nobel, right? You know that Alfred Nobel made dynamite. That's how he made his money. It was a fascinating story that Nobel was, was the inventor of dynamite. It's almost like an Oppenheimer sit- situation.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow, I didn't know that.
- PBPeter Berg
And, and the story is that someone ran a false obituary, they thought he'd died, and they called him a merchant of death. The great merchant of death is gone, this guy, Nobel, who invented dynamite. And at that moment, he realized...... "Fuck, this is how I'm gonna be known. This is gonna be my legacy, the Merchant of Death." He took a huge chunk of his fortune and started the Nobel Peace Prize. So when you hear the name Nobel-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- PBPeter Berg
... you don't think about dynamite, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- PBPeter Berg
He invented dynamite.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- PBPeter Berg
Hand grenades, and Howitzer rounds, and munitions. That was all Nobel. Now you're just like, "Oh my God, Barack Obama just won the, Dalai Lama just won the, Martin Luther King and won the..." Like, this guy made it off of dynamite.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's insane.
- PBPeter Berg
Right? And so the Sacklers were like the same thing, "Wait a minute. We know what we're selling here. We know where our money's coming from."
- JRJoe Rogan
Look at that.
- PBPeter Berg
Me- there you go.
- JRJoe Rogan
"Merchant of Death to pioneer of Nobel Prize." Wow.
- PBPeter Berg
That, that, the Nobel Peace Prize was a big bait and switch.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- PBPeter Berg
So nobody thought about the fact that this dude, you know ...
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- PBPeter Berg
Go look at the body count of Vietnam. And that-
- JRJoe Rogan
This is interesting. You said many saw his invention, what Alfred thought would end all wars, just like Oppenheimer.
- 39:29 – 48:13
Morality, sociopathy, and why accountability never comes
- JRJoe Rogan
And I just wonder how they're gonna get away with it without paying criminal penalties. I mean, not just criminal penalties, but cr- like, going to jail.
- PBPeter Berg
It's hard to go to jail today if you've got a lot of money, Joe.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's insane.
- PBPeter Berg
Yeah. I mean, it's ... a ja- I, I don't ... I can't imagine the Sacklers going to jail. But I think worse than jail is the fact that the name is now done.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PBPeter Berg
And that hurts, because this, this was a family that was all about the legacy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hm.
- PBPeter Berg
And that's over.
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, this guy that approved it, what was his name again?
- PBPeter Berg
Curtis Wright.
- JRJoe Rogan
The guy that they found? Imagine being that guy, 'cause you didn't even get rich, you know? You got kinda rich, you made a lot of money, but you didn't get like billionaire, I can just go hide on an island rich. You're in a small town in New Hampshire, and then they find you-
- PBPeter Berg
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... when this, this ser- this series comes out.
- PBPeter Berg
Yeah. I, I don't ... I never know, like, someone's morality. Like, I always have trouble, like, understanding how different people process morality. And, and, and, like, what it would mean for ... 'Cause you gotta assume a guy like that, after, you know, 25 years, has figured out a way of justifying, to himself, what he's done, right? Like, we all do that. Like ... I mean, we justify our, our, our behaviors. Ho- we don't engage in behavior like that, but we ... whatever we do, we justify it. And I, I wonder how much it hurts, you know? Like, we tried to contact Richard Sackler several times during the early ... He used to live here in Austin, and, um, we couldn't find him. He has a house here in Austin still. Um, but how, how it feels ... You know, there's never been a moment where there's been any kind of accountability, where, you know, Richard Sackler comes out and says, "Okay, okay, look. I am really fucking sorry. Let's just start with that. I, I, I, I am so sorry that this has happened. I am so sorry for the pain. Like, and I can't undo it, but I wanna first acknowledge that I'm sorry. I made some really bad decisions. I thought, I thought I was helping people. I wasn't. I didn't ..." There's never been ... And I think that's where the anger comes from, so much of it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you think that that, that's because of legal advice? I mean, even if he was go- he ... I don't, I don't think you could admit that you're sorry his situation is horrendous as this, because I think it opens up the floodgates for further scrutiny.
- PBPeter Berg
I guess. I just ... ye- yes, you're probably right. But I've, I guess I feel like, like you've already ... you, you, you've lost. You've lost. You've lost so much, and you're, you've lost so much money. Your reputation, um, is, is destroyed. And if you look at ... there's like a 12-hour disposi- uh, deposition of Sackler, um, that, that we recreate some of in the show. And the guy is just a fucking ice brick. Like, he offers nothing. There's no humanity there. And obviously his lawyers were advising him, yes. And he can't say a lot. But you, you wanna ...
- JRJoe Rogan
You wanna believe that everyone's human.
- PBPeter Berg
Yeah. Like, you wanna see some-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PBPeter Berg
... version of, like, "Okay, like, can I understand how it happened? Do, do I think they set out..."... to have all this death and destruction? I'm gonna say no. I don't, I don't know, but I, I, I have to believe that they didn't intend for that. Then the ball got rolling. Then the money started coming in. Then it all got completely out of control, and by the time they realized how bad it was, they couldn't apologize, obviously. And, and they, they were, they were boxed in by legal advice. But somewhere you're looking for some indication of, like, "Look, ma'am, I am so sorry your son died." Not, not, "I'm sorry your son died, but your son was a drug addict." An instant deflection.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- PBPeter Berg
Right? That's just, like... That's rough. That's rough shit.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm. It is rough. It's just... Again, it's, it's hard to understand the way certain people function, their, their morals. Like, what, what are their ethics, and are they sociopaths? 'Cause there's a lot of people that are genuine sociopaths. They do not care if other people are hurt. They don't, do not care about people's feelings. They only care about themselves. There are people like that out there in the world, and they're amongst us. And I don't know what the number is-
- PBPeter Berg
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... but I think it's, like, 1% or something like that.
- PBPeter Berg
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Is it something like that? Or is that schizophrenics? I think sociopaths, it's probably even higher than that. Like... And some of it has gotta be because how you were treated when you were young. Some of it has gotta be nurture.
- PBPeter Berg
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
But I wonder how much of it is nature. I wonder how much of it is your wires are crossed wrong, and you just don't give a fuck about other people. It's totally possible. I mean, you, you look at, like, Jeffrey Dahmer. His parents seemed to be normal. They didn't seem to abuse him.
- PBPeter Berg
Right.
- 48:13 – 1:05:42
Russia, nuclear fear, and the weapons economy: touring a Trident sub
- PBPeter Berg
D- did you see, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Just talking to someone in two different languages is extremely difficult.
- PBPeter Berg
Have you been to Moscow?
- JRJoe Rogan
No, I have not.
- PBPeter Berg
Have you...
- JRJoe Rogan
The architecture's insane.
- PBPeter Berg
I loved it. I've been there twice.
- JRJoe Rogan
Russia's incredible.
- PBPeter Berg
I loved it, and, like, one of the many things that's... like, sucks about this, I think, is, like, Moscow's just out now for, for such a long time, and...
- JRJoe Rogan
For a long time, yeah.
- PBPeter Berg
And I, I've gone there twice for, for film promotions, and the people were so nice. The, the food was fantastic. The architecture... I mean, walking through Red Square, I loved it. I loved the culture. Um, and I... It's too bad.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, it is too bad.
- PBPeter Berg
I would hope, I hope one day to be able to go back there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. I mean, it p- it's amazing how many great chess players, how many great martial artists, how many great authors. Russia's produced some incredible things, incredible works. And the architecture in Russia is so different than anywhere else.... the Moscow architecture is so beautiful-
- PBPeter Berg
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and so unique, uniquely Russian, you know. It's really fantastic stuff. I mean, but it's just, like, the political aspect of it is so terrifying, man, that we're, like, this close to a nuclear war. Goddamn, it scares the fuck out of me.
- PBPeter Berg
Yes, sir.
- JRJoe Rogan
And I always wonder if the same sort of decision-making apparatus that exists in pushing through OxyContin also exists in pushing through wars, also exists in pushing through... Just thi- things that, like, morally, we would all say, "These are terrible, terrible things. We should all agree on this." And to be able to convince large groups of people to engage in them because you're the leader.
- PBPeter Berg
I mean, something that, that I've been looking at for a, for a while now is, is, uh, try- trying to get into the, um, uh, weapons contracting business. Meaning, like, you know, we- the, the big ones, the McDonnell Douglas, the Raytheons, the Boeing, the companies that are making so much money. Um, I was, uh, I was in Pearl Harbor working on a film, and they had the, the nuclear submarines coming in and out of the harbor. And, uh, have you ever seen one? These, these Trident submarines?
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- PBPeter Berg
And, uh, they're, they're amazing. Like, you know, it, it, it al- it never ceases to amaze me that, like, many of our greatest creative accomplishments are these weapons systems, right? Like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PBPeter Berg
... have you been on an aircraft carrier before?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- PBPeter Berg
Or, you know, witnessed the awe and spectacle of those-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's insane.
- PBPeter Berg
... planes, right? They're incredible. And we were filming on a, on a carrier in Pearl Harbor, and, and the subs kept coming in and out. And they're these massive, sleek, they look like, you know, sharks, and they're cruising slow, and they dock in.
- JRJoe Rogan
Can I see one, Jamie?
- PBPeter Berg
And, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Look at them.
- 1:05:42 – 1:25:54
UAPs, Area 51 mushrooms, and secrecy vs. next-gen human tech
- JRJoe Rogan
What do you think about all this UAP, UFO stuff? Have you thought about this? Do you think that this is some sort of a government program, like that they've developed these high-speed drones in secrecy?
- PBPeter Berg
I mean-
- JRJoe Rogan
'Cause that's one prevailing theory.
- PBPeter Berg
... I, I have trouble understanding. Well, like take the, the UFO aspect of it, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PBPeter Berg
Like yes, there's absolutely zero question on earth that there's life out in the solar system. It's an infinite solar system. It goes on forever.
- JRJoe Rogan
Infinite universe, yeah.
- PBPeter Berg
And j- I'm sorry, infinite universe. Um, smoke some 5-MeO and you'll go out there, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PBPeter Berg
And, and like, yes, it's out there. The government keeping it secret and being that capable to find it and keep it secret, I don't know. Um, I took mushrooms with my friend Mike DiGregorio when we tried to get onto Area 51 one day.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- PBPeter Berg
And we drove up there, and like we just-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's such an "I just did mushrooms" thing to do.
- PBPeter Berg
Oh, yeah. We tried, and we, like... Have you ever t- gone up there?
- JRJoe Rogan
No, I have not.
- PBPeter Berg
'Cause it's this road, Area 51, it's this highway, and it, and the base is over a mountain, but the road goes on forever. And you're driving, and we're high as fuck on mushrooms, and we just go-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- PBPeter Berg
We're not getting any closer to the mountain, and we're driving and we're driving and we're driving.
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh.
- PBPeter Berg
And suddenly there's a white van behind us, right? With the light on. And we're like, "Oh, fuck. Okay, go." Like, this is kinda what we thought might happen. And sure enough, guys get out, military dudes with guns, and they're looking at us just like, "Okay, you guys are on mushrooms, right?"
- JRJoe Rogan
Ah.
- PBPeter Berg
"We, we've seen this. We've seen this. Turn around."
- JRJoe Rogan
It's so common.
- PBPeter Berg
"Turn around."
- JRJoe Rogan
But it's hilarious.
- PBPeter Berg
You're not-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's almost like the mushrooms want you to go to Area 51.
- PBPeter Berg
Yeah. "You're not getting on the base." They're like, "There's a hotel called the Little Alien. Go down there with everybody else that's on mushrooms."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- PBPeter Berg
"And, and you can sit out there all night and have all your theories, but you're turning around."
Episode duration: 2:22:43
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Transcript of episode IIh6765-BrQ
