Joe Rogan Experience #2043 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin

Joe Rogan 0:00 (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

Narrator 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) Uh, when you have headphones on in a video game, like, you can hear things behind you.

Konstantin Kisin 0:17 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:17 You can hear things in front of you.

Konstantin Kisin 0:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:19 Like, you, you get a sense of where they are.

Konstantin Kisin 0:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:21 That's one of the ... Goddamn, those things are addictive.

Francis Foster 0:24 (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 0:24 Yeah, man, I'm a gamer.

Joe Rogan 0:25 They are so addictive.

Francis Foster 0:27 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 0:27 Yeah.

Francis Foster 0:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:28 But that's, that's why, 'cause, like, the- they, they have ... It's so immersive now, you know? Like-

Konstantin Kisin 0:33 Are you into video games?

Joe Rogan 0:34 Oh, my God, I have a real problem. I can't play 'em. I literally can't play 'em. I can play pool, right? 'Cause-

Francis Foster 0:38 Mm.

Joe Rogan 0:39 ... pool, I'm addicted to that. But pool, to me, is like a mind exercise. It's like a concentration exercise as much as it is a game. Like, it's all about, like, everything has to move together-

Francis Foster 0:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 0:51 ... in perfect sens- synchronicity. And when I'm playing video games, I'm just absorbed in this, like, adrenaline-fueled chaos of graphics and sounds and explosions.

Francis Foster 1:01 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:02 It's just way too good.

Konstantin Kisin 1:03 (laughs)

Francis Foster 1:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04 That's the problem. You don't wanna do anything else. You just wanna fucking go crazy and play video games all day.

Konstantin Kisin 1:08 There's this game, uh, I play, Escape from Tarkov, that I just, uh, I- I shouldn't be allowed to play it.

Joe Rogan 1:13 (laughs)

Francis Foster 1:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14 That's what I'm saying.

Konstantin Kisin 1:14 'Cause it's not good for my family, man. It's just like-

Francis Foster 1:17 (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 1:17 ... 10 hours a day. And before you know it, the whole day is gone. It's insane.

Joe Rogan 1:21 You don't lose sleep, do you?

Francis Foster 1:22 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 1:22 Yeah.

Francis Foster 1:23 Wolfenstein 3D, that was the game where it just ... That felt kind of like m- ... The first time I saw Wolfenstein 3D, which probably shows how old I am now.

Joe Rogan 1:32 That's the original id Software title.

Francis Foster 1:34 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 1:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:34 That's like the first one they did.

Konstantin Kisin 1:35 You quit at the right time, man. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:39 Yeah.

Francis Foster 1:40 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:40 That's true. Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 1:40 That's what it looked like.

Joe Rogan 1:41 That's what Wolfenstein 3D.

Francis Foster 1:41 Oh!

Konstantin Kisin 1:41 Oh, man. So many hours of my childhood was spent on that.

Francis Foster 1:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:46 So I started off with Quake I.

Francis Foster 1:48 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:48 I had Quake, Quake I on a computer. I was just playing the game itself, 'cause, uh, they had put ... Uh, 'cause I used a Mac, and so then they put out ... Have a cigar, gentlemen.

Konstantin Kisin 1:58 Thank you, brother.

Joe Rogan 1:58 We're like gentlemen here.

Francis Foster 2:00 Oh, thank you. Thank you.

Konstantin Kisin 2:00 (laughs)

Francis Foster 2:01 Nice one.

Joe Rogan 2:02 Enjoying some company. Um, but, uh, that was just, you just play the game. And then I found out about online playing. I was like, "Oh, no."

Francis Foster 2:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:12 Oh, no.

Francis Foster 2:13 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:13 This is ... What a life suck that is.

Konstantin Kisin 2:15 Yeah. Do you let your kids play?

Joe Rogan 2:18 They play games, yeah. But fortunately ... Oh, one's i- one's really into Roblox.

Francis Foster 2:23 What's Robilox?

Joe Rogan 2:24 Roblox, R-O-B-O-L- or B-L-O-X. I think that's what it is, right? Um, i- it's just like, they have these little worlds they create and they run around with their friends in there. It's like, it seems like fun. You just have to limit the amount of time they do it.

Francis Foster 2:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 2:39 And you have to explain to them, like, don't just let 'em figure out it's addictive. Explain to them that it's addictive.

Francis Foster 2:46 Mm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:46 Explain to them that there's things that you're gonna wanna get really good at that won't help you.

Francis Foster 2:53 Yes. (laughs) You know?

Joe Rogan 2:54 It's a great way of looking at it.

Francis Foster 2:55 Because, like, I had a friend, and he was, uh, one of the guys who was the, one of the managers of The Comedy Store. Super awesome guy. And, uh, he was hooked on EverQuest. You know that game?

Konstantin Kisin 3:06 No.

Joe Rogan 3:06 Remember that game? Remember that game, Jamie?

Narrator 3:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:09 There was a, like, m- massive old online multiplayer game, you're a wizard, you're casting spells and shit, that kind of thing.

Francis Foster 3:14 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 3:15 And one day I'll never forget. We were all standing around in The Comedy Store bar, and he was pale, pale like paper.

Francis Foster 3:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:23 Like he hadn't been out of the house in days. Like, he just, his eyes were sunk into his head.

Francis Foster 3:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:27 He goes, "I am so good at making money in the game and so bad at doing it in real life."

Francis Foster 3:34 Hmm.

Konstantin Kisin 3:34 Wow.

Joe Rogan 3:37 I was like, "Whoa." I was like, "Okay, you've put all your energy t- into getting really good at something that doesn't do you any good, unless you're gonna be a professional, which they do have."

Francis Foster 3:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 3:48 That's a hard thing to say to a kid, "Don't be, don't play video games."

Konstantin Kisin 3:52 Right.

Joe Rogan 3:52 If then you find out how much video game players are making.

Konstantin Kisin 3:54 Right. It's like, "Don't start a podcast." (laughs)

Francis Foster 3:58 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:58 Exactly. Right. Are we dinosaurs to be talking shit on?

Konstantin Kisin 4:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:00 They're so good. I'm not talking shit about games. But what I'm kind of saying-

Konstantin Kisin 4:03 Who you got control is what you're saying.

Joe Rogan 4:05 T- th- they're too good. They're too good.

Konstantin Kisin 4:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:07 They're t- Your life is boring as fuck compared to those games. Like, there's no way.

Francis Foster 4:13 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:13 There's no way it's as exciting as playing-

Francis Foster 4:15 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 4:15 ... like, Quake III Arena online with a, like, a, a 30-inch monitor and you're sitting right in front of it and you got fucking headphones on, explosions and lightning guns. It's amazing.

Francis Foster 4:28 But b- because if you think about it, right, like,

Francis Foster 4:30 computer games are instant gratification, wher- ... And that's how you get success in a computer game. But if you think about life, life, how to become successful is basically deferred gratification.

Konstantin Kisin 4:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:41 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 4:42 And there's another level to it, which is, in a computer game, rewards are linear.

Francis Foster 4:46 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 4:46 You, you work for a bit, you get a reward.

Francis Foster 4:48 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 4:48 You work for a bit, you get a reward. You work for a bit, you g-

Francis Foster 4:50 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 4:50 But life isn't like that. In life, you work for a bit, you get fucking k- kicked to shit for, for, for years sometimes, right? You gotta work and work and work, and sometimes it's gonna be really shitty for a long time. And then there may be a reward or they may not.

Francis Foster 5:04 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 5:04 Sometimes the work is the reward itself, right? So that, uh, is ... In some ways, it actually changes how you think about achieving things-

Francis Foster 5:12 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 5:12 ... and doing things as well, which is ... You know, I have sometimes found that helpful, because you kind of know if you work, you get a reward. But sometimes i- it can mess with your reward system as well, I think, you know?

Joe Rogan 5:22 Well, if you look at what video games do, it, it encourages you to spend as much time doing them as possible.

Konstantin Kisin 5:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:28 Because the more you do them, the more whatever you're doing you a- acquire.

Francis Foster 5:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:32 You know? If that, that's kind of the case with real life ... Well, think about, like, stockbrokers.

Francis Foster 5:38 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 5:38 Think about those kind of folks. Folks are, you know, you know, just in it trying to make money, just trying to figure out what to buy and what to sell. And they're ... It's all ... For them, it's all numbers.

Konstantin Kisin 5:47 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 5:48 So they must be, like, addicted to these numbers. Like, you're probab- they're probably super addicted to, like, seeing their bank account and seeing their hedge fund, seeing what do, what do they have, like how much, how much ... "I need more than that."

Konstantin Kisin 5:59 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 6:00 You know? Like, you, you compare yourself, and you, you read the list of the richest people in the world. "Oh, this guy's got 200 billion. Holy shit, I gotta do better."

Konstantin Kisin 6:08 (laughs) You know what I thought, how do you keep going once you got to, like, a billion? How do you motivate yourself to, like, make more? You've got more money than you-

Joe Rogan 6:16 Unless what you're doing is what you enjoy doing-

Konstantin Kisin 6:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:19 ... which is where Elon falls into that category.

Konstantin Kisin 6:20 Yeah.

Francis Foster 6:20 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:21 Right? He's making money, but what he does is, he's ... I mean, it's essentially, it's all engineering stuff. All of it. You know, it's innovation and engineering. You know, the Boring Company, they're trying to, like, drill tunnels under the cities. That's crazy. Ro- SpaceX, that's fucking insane. You're, you're shooting rockets into space. You wanna put people on Mars. Uh, electric cars, you're engineering electric cars. Uh, electric roofs. Like, everything is, like, this new innovative product. Starlink. Oh, let's get, just get high speed internet and fucking fly it through the sky. (laughs)

Francis Foster 6:54 (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 6:54 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 6:54 But people keep seeing those things and thinking they're UFOs, by the way. (laughs)

Francis Foster 6:57 Do they?

Joe Rogan 6:58 Yeah.

Francis Foster 6:58 "Yeah."

Joe Rogan 6:58 But it's also as well, like,

Joe Rogan 7:00 if you think about, like, making money, what is really making money? It's the deal. And actually-

Francis Foster 7:05 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 7:05 ... you just get addicted to the deal.

Konstantin Kisin 7:07 That's a good point.

Joe Rogan 7:07 You know? It's like a form of gambling. "I'm gonna try this tactic, but no, they pushed back on here. But I'm gonna do this-"

Francis Foster 7:13 Right.

Joe Rogan 7:13 "... and now I'm gonna do that. And then, and then maybe if we try that, then this is gonna happen." And then you make the deal, and boom, you get the dopamine. Yeah, that makes sense.

Konstantin Kisin 7:21 That makes sense. I know some hedge fund guys who love doing it, aft- you know, after the first billion too.

Joe Rogan 7:26 Well, if they really enjoy that game, I guess.

Konstantin Kisin 7:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:29 I mean, I guess it's kinda like playing, you know, Magic: The Gathering or something.

Konstantin Kisin 7:33 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 7:33 Like, you, you have t- I mean, it is a game. You're, you're, you're playing it to win it.

Francis Foster 7:38 Yeah. But social media's a game.

Konstantin Kisin 7:40 Yes.

Joe Rogan 7:41 Yes.

Konstantin Kisin 7:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:41 And it's, it's a game a lot like video games-

Konstantin Kisin 7:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:43 ... where it's like you're really not getting anything out of this.

Francis Foster 7:46 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 7:47 And-

Francis Foster 7:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 7:47 ... and you're probably losing a lot of your time doing it.

Konstantin Kisin 7:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 7:50 (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 7:51 I suppose with people like us, we're building profile and, you know, c- you know, connections. I've met-

Joe Rogan 7:56 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 7:56 ... so many amazing people, actually, through social media, you know.

Joe Rogan 7:58 Oh, for sure. For sure. We're all on it.

Konstantin Kisin 8:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:00 Right?

Konstantin Kisin 8:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:00 We're all on it, but also, we're all on it.

Konstantin Kisin 8:03 Yeah.

Francis Foster 8:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:03 And some of the people that are on it aren't even really there. Like, what you ... There's so much interaction that's instigated. There's so much ... There's so many inflammatory accounts that I read them and I'm like, "There is no way that's a real person."

Francis Foster 8:18 No.

Joe Rogan 8:18 Like, this is all design. This is all ... Like, th- there's just a certain percentage of people that are just trying to stir up shit in conversations-

Francis Foster 8:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 8:25 ... all the time. And they usually have, like, American flags in their profile.

Francis Foster 8:29 (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 8:30 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 8:31 (laughs) It's, it's like, you know, like, some, some Trump thing in their name. And then you go to their cr- account, it doesn't look real at all. And you're like, "I wonder where this is ... Is this guy in, in Moldova? Like, where, where is he?"

Francis Foster 8:40 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 8:40 Like, "Where is he?"

Konstantin Kisin 8:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:41 "Is he in Latvia? Like, "Where, where is this guy that's doing this?"

Francis Foster 8:44 You get ... There's so

Francis Foster 8:45 many people like that. There's one guy, I'm not gonna mention his name, but he li- he lives in Asia and he's always commenting about America. And I'm like, "Mate, should you not be commenting about your own country instead of clipping riots in America?"

Joe Rogan 8:57 Well, he, he could get killed. So ... (laughs)

Francis Foster 9:02 (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 9:02 (laughs)

Francis Foster 9:02 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 9:02 You know?

Konstantin Kisin 9:02 He's displaced protester.

Joe Rogan 9:03 I mean, good fucking luck tweeting bad shit about China if you're in China.

Konstantin Kisin 9:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:09 Like, they, they got that pretty locked down.

Konstantin Kisin 9:11 Oh, yeah.

Francis Foster 9:11 Oh.

Joe Rogan 9:11 Oh, they do.

Francis Foster 9:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:12 Oh, they do.

Francis Foster 9:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:13 Yeah, and there's, uh, several countries that y- have arrested people for tweets, you know, which is-

Konstantin Kisin 9:18 Well, we come from one of them.

Francis Foster 9:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:20 Yeah, I know.

Konstantin Kisin 9:21 (laughs)

Francis Foster 9:21 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 9:22 You, you guys do. You do.

Konstantin Kisin 9:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:24 You do, yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 9:24 2018, 3,000 people, man.

Joe Rogan 9:26 3,000 people got arrested for tweeting bad things?

Konstantin Kisin 9:28 Not tweeting, but social media posts, yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:31 Whew.

Konstantin Kisin 9:31 Yeah.

Francis Foster 9:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:31 So between ... What was the biggest one? Was it ... It had to be Facebook, right? That's where people complained the most.

Konstantin Kisin 9:35 Is it?

Joe Rogan 9:36 Probably. (laughs)

Francis Foster 9:37 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 9:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 9:37 I think those are the complainiest folks. Those are the older folks.

Francis Foster 9:40 Uh, yeah. I mean, the, the most famous example is Count Dankilla, the internet comedian-

Joe Rogan 9:44 Mm-hmm.

Francis Foster 9:44 ... where he taught-

Konstantin Kisin 9:45 Yeah.

Francis Foster 9:45 ... his pug to do a Nazi salute. But there's been lots of others. You know, examples, you know, people ma- ... There's a tragic fire that happened in London called the Grenfell Fire. It was awful. People were literally burnt to death in this tower block.

Joe Rogan 9:57 Mm-hmm.

Francis Foster 9:57 And these group of people, they were idiots, basically did a representation on Bonfire Night in November the 5th in our country. And they did a representation of people in the tower and set fire to it. They videoed it. They were laughing along. Now obviously, that's a dick move. I think we can all agree with that.

Joe Rogan 10:12 Yeah.

Francis Foster 10:12 But you don't arrest somebody for that, for basically being a dick.

Joe Rogan 10:17 Yeah, it's ... It shouldn't be illegal to be stupid.

Konstantin Kisin 10:19 No.

Joe Rogan 10:20 It just ... That's a ... You're crossing a line because you're making a subjective judgment. You know, like, it's not funny to me. And it's, it's not funny to probably to a lot of rational people.

Francis Foster 10:31 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 10:32 But you should be able to try. Like, the whole thing about doing something ... Like, a lot of times when people do outrageous things they think are gonna be funny, they don't know.

Francis Foster 10:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:40 And then they try it. That's not a, a thing you should arrest people for, because j- you're setting a crazy precedent because then it becomes subjective, like what's outrageous and what's not. It could move to anything. It could move to, you know, trans identification or trans r- rights. It could move to anything that you-

Konstantin Kisin 10:59 Vaccine hesitancy. I mean-

Joe Rogan 11:00 It could-

Konstantin Kisin 11:01 ... we can keep going.

Joe Rogan 11:02 Yeah, vaccine hesitancy, not, not supporting Ukraine. There, there's a whole slew of things that could be stuffed into that box once you open it. You just can't open that box. That box has gotta be ... People have to be able to ... Th- this is, this is how we have to conduct ourselves. People have to be able to express themselves. And they have to be able to use facts and reality and not get censored. And they have to be able to do that kinda universally. And if they can't do that, if the good ideas can't compete against the bad ideas, then the good ideas aren't good enough. So, we have to figure it out, uh, strengthen the good ideas. But the only way that works is if you don't censor people, 'cause as soon as you start censoring people, you're admitting that you don't wanna engage in this. You don't want, you don't want to, you don't want to show a better way of looking at things. You just want to be the only person who gets to talk. And that's what we saw on social media over the last few years.

Francis Foster 11:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:55 And which is why Elon buying Twitter was such a big fucking deal.

Francis Foster 11:58 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:59 It's a big fucking deal. And I know advertisers are panicking and people are saying that hate talk is up. And I must admit, I have seen a lot of wild shit on X now that I don't think I would've ever seen before.

Francis Foster 12:10 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 12:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:11 ... openly racist stuff, some r- pretty gross stuff. And it's just- It's also, it's just weird how comfortable people are, uh, d- talking a certain way.

Narrator 12:21 Mm.

Joe Rogan 12:22 You know, it's almost like I wonder, like, how much of the idea of it being, uh, completely uncensored now ... It's not totally uncensored.

Narrator 12:28 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 12:28 I mean, there's some moderation, right? There's things you can't do. You can't dox people. You can't do a lot of things. And they can't catch everything, either, cuz like, how many ... Didn't they fire, like, most people?

Francis Foster 12:36 (laughs)

Narrator 12:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:37 (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 12:37 I mean, nothing

Konstantin Kisin 12:38 much changed though. Like, like, I didn't, I didn't feel it terrible. I think that the, in terms of the hate speech stuff, or whatever you call that, whatever it is, that's just a product of the fact that they're not moderating as much.

Joe Rogan 12:48 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 12:48 And I, I actually think, I mean, what you said was, you know, just preach on that. But I also think, on top of that, we have to, those of us who believe in freedom of expression, we have to also admit that freedom comes at a cost. And it, it's worth paying.

Joe Rogan 13:01 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 13:01 That's what we have to be honest about, I think. We have to say, "We're getting freedom at the cost of some un- discomfort. Some people are allowed to be dicks."

Joe Rogan 13:10 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 13:10 "And that's the price we're willing to pay." I mean, freedom always comes at a cost, right? And it, and it's trade-offs. You could make the country really safe if you lock every man between 18 and 40 in a prison. But we don't do that because we understand we can't do that, right?

Francis Foster 13:23 Despite what some feminists want.

Konstantin Kisin 13:24 (laughs)

Francis Foster 13:25 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:26 (laughs) Statistically, though, they'd be right.

Konstantin Kisin 13:28 They'd-

Francis Foster 13:28 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:28 That's what's crazy.

Konstantin Kisin 13:29 That's what I'm saying.

Francis Foster 13:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:30 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 13:30 Right? That's who commits the crimes.

Joe Rogan 13:31 Yeah.

Francis Foster 13:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:32 Yeah, I used to have this bit about, what would it be like if women caused all wars?

Francis Foster 13:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:38 Because men cause all of them.

Francis Foster 13:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:40 Men cause every fucking war that's ever happened.

Francis Foster 13:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:42 Pretty much. I mean, maybe women were involved.

Joe Rogan 13:46 You know?

Francis Foster 13:46 Well, yeah, I mean, there's Helen of Troy.

Joe Rogan 13:49 Yeah.

Francis Foster 13:49 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 13:50 But she wasn't out there fighting. She just wanted-

Francis Foster 13:52 No, but it was her fault, mate.

Konstantin Kisin 13:52 ... to be with her true love, mate.

Francis Foster 13:53 It was her fault.

Joe Rogan 13:55 Yeah. Th- that can be a, a factor.

Francis Foster 13:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:57 You know? There's, like, really strong women and pussy-whipped kings. A lot of that happens. (laughs)

Francis Foster 14:03 (laughs) But, you know-

Joe Rogan 14:04 But for the most part, you know, if you locked all the men up, yeah, right, there would be no crime. Except in jail, there'd be a lot of crime in jail. (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 14:11 Let's, let's stop giving them ideas, Joe. (laughs)

Francis Foster 14:14 (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 14:14 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:14 Well, it's ... Y- but he, you know, you can't, obviously you can't do that. But it's also, it's like, (sighs) what do you ... Like, how do we fix all of the, like, insane tension in the world today? It seems like this is ... At- at no other time in my life have I felt like there's more conflict-

Francis Foster 14:37 Mm.

Joe Rogan 14:37 ... and more, like, tension in the air. Like, it didn't use to be that people with differing ideas, whether they're on the right or the left, were so fucking hateful. So ... And- and I kept seeing the, the kind of rhetoric that you see online is just so like, "If we don't win, democracy is lost," and it's from both sides.

Konstantin Kisin 15:00 Mm.

Francis Foster 15:01 Mm. I think the problem is, man, is that we spend all our time on these platforms, which incentivizes that type of behavior, because it's always gonna be the most controversial take, the most reactionary point of view that's gonna gain the most engagement. And that's gonna work with the algorithm, which is gonna drive it.

Joe Rogan 15:17 Yeah.

Francis Foster 15:17 So really, you know, people respond to incentives, and you're incentivizing people to be-

Joe Rogan 15:22 Yeah.

Francis Foster 15:23 ... more reactionary, more divisive, more aggressive. When the reality is, as we all know, like, if you got those two people to sit in front of one another and have a conversation, they wouldn't behave like that because you have the added element of getting a punch in the face.

Joe Rogan 15:37 Yeah, that's another thing, right? Like, most people would never communicate the way they communicate online i- in real life.

Konstantin Kisin 15:44 Yeah. And it's partly what Francis said, which is the potential for violence, right?

Joe Rogan 15:48 Yeah, it's real.

Konstantin Kisin 15:48 It's real.

Francis Foster 15:49 Yeah. It's real.

Konstantin Kisin 15:50 And, and, and, it's maybe a guy thing, but g- we instinctively know that, right? There's a level ... Bill Burr used to have this incredible bit of how he would behave if w- if it was illegal to pu- or if, you know, if you couldn't hit him.

Francis Foster 16:01 (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 16:01 You know.

Francis Foster 16:01 Yeah (laughs) .

Konstantin Kisin 16:01 Just walk up to a gym bro, snap his handsh- milkshake out of his hand, you know.

Joe Rogan 16:05 Yeah.

Francis Foster 16:05 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 16:05 Yeah. So the face-to-face thing changes everything because most of the way we communicate is actually not in the words, right? It's-

Joe Rogan 16:12 Well, this is how we're designed, right?

Konstantin Kisin 16:13 Yeah.

Francis Foster 16:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:13 We're designed to communicate in, in, in person.

Konstantin Kisin 16:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:16 We're designed to take social cues, verbal cues, physical cues.

Konstantin Kisin 16:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:21 You know, just as if ... So you could sense energy in people.

Konstantin Kisin 16:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:23 You could sense when people are upset with you, even though their expression doesn't change, you know?

Konstantin Kisin 16:27 Mm.

Joe Rogan 16:27 It's

Joe Rogan 16:28 interesting.

Francis Foster 16:28 It's really interesting, and we've also come to this point, Joe, which is really worrying to me, where people think that words are violence.

Konstantin Kisin 16:35 That's crazy, man.

Francis Foster 16:36 You know? And if you think that words are violence, and if you literally interpret it as that, then you having a- an argument with someone is you literally being physically assaulted. So if you're going t- If you feel like you're being physically assaulted, then you're gonna up the ante and you're gonna become more aggressive as a result.

Konstantin Kisin 16:51 You're justified to defend yourself.

Joe Rogan 16:53 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, if you think that everyone is Na- a Nazi, like a literal Nazi-

Francis Foster 16:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:58 ... like, you feel justified in your actions. And you're, a lot of them are convinced of that. It's, it's like being in a cult.

Konstantin Kisin 17:03 But are

Konstantin Kisin 17:04 they convinced though? This is what I wonder, Joe, is like, they, they keep using that word about everybody, right?

Joe Rogan 17:09 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 17:10 But if you actually thought democracy was over and the Nazis have taken over, wouldn't you, like, pick up a gun and rise up and overthrow the- but, but they don't.

Francis Foster 17:19 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:19 I think they're pretty close to that. (laughs)

Francis Foster 17:20 (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 17:20 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:22 It seems-

Francis Foster 17:23 (laughs) It seems like if you woke up one day and that broke out in Philadelphia, you wouldn't be stunned.

Konstantin Kisin 17:27 Yeah.

Francis Foster 17:27 No.

Konstantin Kisin 17:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:27 You know, you're seeing what the looting and the craziness in Philadelphia is right now, right?

Konstantin Kisin 17:31 Yeah.

Francis Foster 17:31 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:32 It's bonkers, man. This defund the police stuff is psychotic.

Konstantin Kisin 17:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:38 It's crazy to literally encourage crime. 'Cause if you don't have incentives, if you don't have something in place to keep people from committing crime, then people that have already committed crime in their life, like multiple times, like many times, they're just gonna do it whenever they want.And that's what you're seeing.

Konstantin Kisin 17:57 Yeah. Yeah.

Francis Foster 17:57 Yes.

Konstantin Kisin 17:58 It, it's amazing how... And, and it, it's part of this sort of mindset that every human behavior is a product of the circumstances, but it's not. Some people will commit crime, right? And we have to also have a system that prevents that from happening. We have to have police, we have to have everything else. Right? Um, and decriminalizing crime is a bad idea. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:17 It's a stupid idea. And it's just this idea that's born out of guilt, not logic.

Konstantin Kisin 18:22 Yeah.

Francis Foster 18:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:23 It's born out of virtue signaling, not rational thinking. It's just not a, the way to do it. If you have bad cops, you're supposed to train them to be better. You should fund them better, treat them better, respect them more, and then they should have more of a relationship with the community. It should be a, a thing where they're trying to literally protect you, not constantly persecute people and fuck with people. And it's like that, that line is very... A thin line. Then also, who the fuck wants that job?

Konstantin Kisin 18:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 18:51 Who the fuck wants to be yelled at all the time? Who wants to be the professional enemy? Who wants to be someone that it's okay to just shoot at? Who wants to be the person that everybody you interact with is lying to you?

Konstantin Kisin 19:01 Was there a time in your life, Joe, where the police were respected by most people?

Joe Rogan 19:06 There's always been problems, you know. There was problem... Hunter S. Thompson wrote about the Chicago riots being the one of the most horrific things that he ever saw in his life, the way cops were-

Konstantin Kisin 19:13 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:14 ... beating the people with clubs and shit. It's... There's always been bad cops, just like there's always been bad plumbers.

Konstantin Kisin 19:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:22 It's just ba-... Some people just suck.

Konstantin Kisin 19:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:24 They suck at what they do. And, you know, they come from a bad environment. They don't... You know, they didn't have good role models. They grew up around assholes. They don't have any motivation. Maybe they're hooked on drugs. And they suck at what they do.

Konstantin Kisin 19:35 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:35 And that could be anything.

Francis Foster 19:38 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:38 Anybody could suck at anything. Cops too. There's cops that are awesome human beings. I know a lot-

Francis Foster 19:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:43 ... of cops that are great people.

Francis Foster 19:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:45 From jujitsu, I've known so many cops, 'cause cops are constantly training. And generally, they're really nice guys with a fucking really hard job.

Konstantin Kisin 19:53 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:53 But you don't hear about those.

Konstantin Kisin 19:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:55 You hear about the one that does some horrible thing. You see about the one who plants the gun on the guy after he shoots him.

Francis Foster 20:02 Hmm.

Konstantin Kisin 20:02 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:02 You see the one where people shoot people when they're reaching for their wallets. You see, you see the crazy shit. You see people punching women in the face. You see crazy shit, right?

Konstantin Kisin 20:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:13 But you don't see all the positive interactions. And you don't see what happens if you get rid of them. And that's what you're seeing with this s- these smash-and-grabs. This is... These are fucking bananas, man, 'cause they're everywhere now. And people are seeing so many of them on the internet, and they're seeing that people are getting away with them, and it's encouraging them.

Konstantin Kisin 20:31 Yeah.

Francis Foster 20:32 And this is what happened, you know. In V- you know, in Venezuela was always had a problem with lawlessness, but when Chavez came to power, after a few years, you know, they said the cops weren't gonna prosecute p- people, criminals, because prosecuting a crime is a sign of right-wing oppression. Like, where have you heard that before? Right? And as a result of that, it became so completely and utterly lawless, the, the, the city became uninhabitable. It became the murder capital of the world and the kidnap capital of the world. Because there's always gonna be a small subset of society who are criminals, and who will then look to maximize their opportunities to make money.

Konstantin Kisin 21:09 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:10 Yeah. There's, there's a couple arguments about this that make sense. When, when people say that they're a victim in their circumstance, and we, we have to appreciate that they were put into a horrible circumstance in life and they're just trying to get by, that's true too.

Konstantin Kisin 21:25 Yeah.

Francis Foster 21:26 Hmm. Sure.

Joe Rogan 21:26 So what we have to do that we're not doing is try to figure out how to stop that, how to stop how m- how to make, like, a minimum quality of life for everybody-

Francis Foster 21:36 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:36 ... where your n- no one's growing up in dire poverty.

Konstantin Kisin 21:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:40 That... If you could send... (laughs) How many, I mean, uh, how many trillions of dollars, uh, have we spent i- uh, just on military budgets over the last few years?

Konstantin Kisin 21:49 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:49 If they figured out a way to give contractors a lot of money to fix neighborhoods, like, to, like, completely clean them up, provide modern housing-

Konstantin Kisin 22:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 22:04 ... take care of all the bl-... Figure out ways to set people up for work programs and give people jobs. Like, if that was, like, financially viable-

Konstantin Kisin 22:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 22:13 ... just like Halliburton had those contracts to rebuild i- Iraq-

Francis Foster 22:16 (laughs) Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 22:17 ... after we blew it up, if they had something like that for inner cities, where there could, these guys could literally make money doing it, that could be one way to kind of re-engineer things. Because if they could just figure out how to do that, you'd have so much less crime. People-

Konstantin Kisin 22:31 You'd have a lot less crime. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:32 You'd have a lot less crime, if people had hope, if people had role models, if they had community centers, if they had really good education and they had safe streets.

Francis Foster 22:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 22:41 Just that alone. Just that alone.

Konstantin Kisin 22:43 Yeah. It would, it would reduce crime a lot, definitely.

Joe Rogan 22:45 It would take a long fucking time, though.

Konstantin Kisin 22:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:47 Because you got generation after generation of people who lived there. A- even, you're talking about, like, really fucked up, gang-ridden neighborhoods.

Konstantin Kisin 22:53 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:54 And no one's done anything about those neighborhoods for a long time.

Francis Foster 22:56 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 22:57 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:57 And it's generational. It's, like, built into the people that live there.

Konstantin Kisin 23:00 Yeah.

Francis Foster 23:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:01 They're accustomed to it.

Konstantin Kisin 23:02 And, you know, it's family structure as well. Once, once you disrupt all that, there's not enough male role models. Where are peop-

Joe Rogan 23:08 Exactly.

Konstantin Kisin 23:08 Where are young kids gonna look for, for a role model? It's gonna be the men with status around them. Who's that gonna be?

Joe Rogan 23:14 Drug dealers.

Konstantin Kisin 23:14 Right.

Francis Foster 23:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:15 Yeah, gang members. Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 23:16 Status and money.

Francis Foster 23:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:17 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 23:17 That's them.

Joe Rogan 23:18 And guys who grew up in those kind of neighborhoods all have that story.

Konstantin Kisin 23:22 Yeah.

Francis Foster 23:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:22 You know? And that's true too. You know? Like, yeah, you can't defund the police, but you also can't ignore the plight of a good percentage of our community. Like, uh, we're supposed to be a united community of human beings. We call ourselves Americans. We live on the same patch of land, except for Alaska and Hawaii. (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 23:40 (laughs)

Francis Foster 23:41 (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 23:41 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:41 (laughs) Alaska's the dumbest. Like, how is that ours?

Francis Foster 23:44 You know-

Joe Rogan 23:45 It's not even connected.

Francis Foster 23:46 You know, people don't talk about the culture aspect of it about it a lot. I remember when I was teaching at a school, it was a really rough school, I taught a li- kid, M- let's call him Darren, and he's one of the smartest kids I've ever encountered. So bright. I remember he was always getting kicked out of school, uh, ge- uh, kicked out of lessons. And when I was like... One of the jobs that you do as a teacher is you walk around the corridor and you pick up the kids who get kicked out of the lesson. And I just... I then taught Darren chess. And within about-... two days, he could beat me at chess. He was super, super, super bright. One of the brightest kids I've ever encountered. But because he came from a criminal family, he was never gonna make it through school. He just wasn't, because the, the values that had been inculcated him, right the way from birth, meant that he was never gonna succeed. And this is what, that I found frustrating that a lot of people didn't get. They were like, "He's a bad kid. He's a b-" Yeah, but he's a kid who's a product of his culture, and it takes a very special person to be able to break out of that.

Joe Rogan 24:42 Mm-hmm. And generally, they have to find something to break out.

Francis Foster 24:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:45 Whether it's, uh, music or sports or something-

Francis Foster 24:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:49 ... that breaks them out. Stand-up comedy?

Francis Foster 24:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:51 That breaks them out of that, so some new world that they can enter into and succeed in, and then they can leave

Joe Rogan 24:57 the old world behind.

Konstantin Kisin 24:58 And at the same time, coming back to the point you made earlier, crime still has to be illegal. We can understand people's circumstances and not encourage and incentivize them to commit crime.

Joe Rogan 25:09 Yeah, yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 25:09 We have to be able to do both. We have to walk and chew gum at the same time, man. We gotta be, right?

Francis Foster 25:13 Right.

Joe Rogan 25:13 We have to be, yeah. We have to be able to do both. But the, the way to fix it is not defunding the police.

Konstantin Kisin 25:19 No.

Joe Rogan 25:19 That's not the... That- that's the worst strategy, but that's such a virtue-signaling strategy.

Francis Foster 25:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:25 That's like, "W- look what they did to George Floyd." No, look what one guy did. One guy did, and there was a more than appropriate response by the people that saw that video.

Francis Foster 25:35 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 25:35 People freaked the fu- And the violence and the, the burning and the l- all that smashing and shit, very unfortunate. But that out blast of hate, it at least should make people recognize that, A, you can be held responsible for something horrific like that if someone's filming it, and then also that those kind of cops do exist, and also that it's not all of them.

Francis Foster 25:58 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 25:58 And we gotta figure out a way to train cops or screen them better, or c- c- like Jocko says, that you should train them the same way you train SEALs. Like, SEALs develop... They go through this training program, and then they dedicate a certain amount of time, forever, for training. They're always training.

Francis Foster 26:16 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 26:17 Cops don't do that. They just stay cops.

Konstantin Kisin 26:19 Yeah.

Francis Foster 26:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:19 And he's like, "You should dedicate a certain percentage of their time should be dedicated to training, and they should be held accountable." But it's also, it's like, you're asking a lot, and then on top of that, you're essentially dealing with people that have a high instance of PTSD.

Konstantin Kisin 26:35 Oh, man.

Francis Foster 26:35 Oh, come on.

Joe Rogan 26:35 Very, very high instance and not discussed and not appreciated. You hear about PTSD from people that are victims of violence and people that are victims of war. You- you hear about that, but you don't hear about it about cops.

Francis Foster 26:48 Yeah. Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 26:48 Yeah. And- and also the point you made earlier. I mean, how much does it tr- how much does it take to train a SEAL?

Francis Foster 26:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:54 It takes a lot.

Konstantin Kisin 26:55 Right. How much does it... How much do we spend training police officers?

Joe Rogan 26:57 Not- not nearly as much.

Francis Foster 26:59 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 26:59 And also, like, hey, you shouldn't be fat.

Konstantin Kisin 27:02 (laughs)

Francis Foster 27:03 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:03 Like, hey.

Francis Foster 27:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:04 If you... And also, you should be able to physically defend yourself.

Francis Foster 27:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:07 You know? And even if you're a woman, you should know jujitsu.

Francis Foster 27:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 27:10 You should know... You should be able to defend yourself, because we've seen time and time again these horrific situations where cops can't physically defend themselves and some criminal gets loose and beats the fuck out of them.

Francis Foster 27:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:24 I mean, I've seen so many videos of this. One was horrible. This lady pulled this guy over and the guy's daughter was in the car. She's like, "Don't, Daddy. Don't, Daddy." And he's beating the fuck out of this lady cop.

Francis Foster 27:36 You know, I... When I left university, I did a, like a temp job at the Metropolitan Police, just doing like paperwork. And what was really interesting when I was working in those offices is there were a lot of cops there working, and they were all just guys who were burnt out, PTSD'd out of their eyeballs. They couldn't function anymore, and all they c- all they did was just routine admin jobs.

Joe Rogan 27:57 Yeah.

Francis Foster 27:58 And I used to go with these guys to go and drink, and like, we're the really good guys, really good guys. And the stories they told me, they were just horrific, and the drinking culture. And the only way a lot of these guys were functioning is by working. Most of them, uh, you know, they had one or two marriages they had failed, and then they would just go out and just get smashed, because that was their only way of coping, because the- the- the support for them was minimal. They didn't have any support. If you go to a murder scene and you see, you know, a guy who's basically killed himself and then shot his daughter and his wife, and you don't have any type of support when you come out to talk to, to help you to process that, what are you g- that... Y- you're not meant to be exposed to that.

Joe Rogan 28:48 All the time.

Francis Foster 28:49 All the time.

Joe Rogan 28:50 All, all the time.

Konstantin Kisin 28:50 But that's all you do.

Joe Rogan 28:51 That's all you do. Yeah, and we don't even consider that.

Francis Foster 28:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:55 It's just such a stupid under-appreciation. And it's, it's just so unfortunate that that's so prevalent, and it, it's somehow or another equated to liberalism. And... I just think it's just the wrong approach. I think it's like fundamentally it's the, the wrong approach. I empathize and I even agree with how they feel about the way this- the setup in this country is not fair.

Konstantin Kisin 29:24 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 29:24 It's not fair. There are people that do not get a, a fair starting block.

Francis Foster 29:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:30 Their starting block sucks. Like, where, where they take off from in life, it's not the same as yours.

Francis Foster 29:35 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 29:35 It's not the same as mine. But we gotta fix that. The- the- the thing is not, like, fixing it when it gets to all the way to gr- letting violent criminals out because you think they were wronged in life. Like, if you're just gonna let violent criminals out, then you're not tr- changing them, because you acknowledge the fact that they've been done wrong.

Konstantin Kisin 29:53 And also,

Konstantin Kisin 29:54 we have to be real in a society like yours and like ours where we define poverty... I mean, look, uh, you're, the communities you're talking about, they are really in, in deep trouble, of course. But we still, we define poverty in relative terms, and somebody will always be poorer than other people. You know-

Joe Rogan 30:09 Yes, but like-

Konstantin Kisin 30:09 ... either very poor or-

Joe Rogan 30:10 ... dire poverty, food stamps, welfare.

Konstantin Kisin 30:12 Sure.

Joe Rogan 30:13 You don't have money for food.

Konstantin Kisin 30:14 I, I know. But, but those people are much wealthier than many of the people I grew up around.

Joe Rogan 30:18 Which is crazy, right?

Konstantin Kisin 30:19 Right.

Francis Foster 30:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:19 It's like, it's 34%.

Francis Foster 30:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:21 Or $34,000 a year-

Konstantin Kisin 30:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:22 ... is one, 1% of the world.

Konstantin Kisin 30:24 Yeah.

Francis Foster 30:25 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:25 (laughs) And people call themselves like, you know, these one percenters. Bitch, that's you.

Francis Foster 30:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:29 That's you.

Konstantin Kisin 30:30 Right. That's everybody here.

Joe Rogan 30:31 Yeah.

Francis Foster 30:32 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 30:32 That's all of us.

Francis Foster 30:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:32 You know? Well, I s- especially most people working make more than $34,000 a year. So, most people in America that have a full-time job-

Konstantin Kisin 30:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:40 ... they're probably making more than $34,000 a year, and they're in the top 1% of the world.

Francis Foster 30:44 Yeah.

Francis Foster 30:45 You, you know the thing that I don't think people talk about enough? So, I've, when I was teaching, I taught in rural communities. And in a lot of rural communities, because of globalization, because of the industrialization, there's just generation after generation who are growing up, who are becoming adults, and there is no work. There is no work for the vast majority of them. And what it inculcates in them is a sense of hopelessness.

Joe Rogan 31:10 Yeah.

Francis Foster 31:10 And if you grow up in a culture where you feel that there is no hope, and you look around you, and everyone is broken, and no one is working, and everyone has given up, then even as a kid, you think to yourself, "Well, well, what's the point of doing anything? Because I'm just gonna end up like Uncle Dave on the sofa getting..." You know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 31:28 Yeah.

Francis Foster 31:28 Even if you don't intellectually think it-

Joe Rogan 31:31 Yeah.

Francis Foster 31:31 ... emotionally, you feel it.

Joe Rogan 31:33 Well, that's a thing that can happen to kids in high school. So, if you're in high school and you're hanging around with a crowd who likes to party and drink-

Francis Foster 31:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 31:40 ... and, and fuck off, and not do much, and, you know, those are the fun people to hang out with, and then you get outta school, and now you're supposed to get a job. You, you have to... Now, you're on your own. You have to figure it out. And these guys aren't figuring it out. If you're trapped in that kind of a friend group, like, you can get sucked into very low expectations, you know. And you could, you could fucking (laughs) waste a long chunk of your life before you figure that out.

Konstantin Kisin 32:04 Totally,

Konstantin Kisin 32:05 man. And, you know, culture, you're right, Francis, is such a powerful thing. I mean, I, when I was, uh, when I was 18, I spent a few weeks sleeping in the park 'cause I didn't have money, and my, you know, I had a long family situation that was very bad. But it never occurred to me that I would stay there because that wasn't what I came from, and it wasn't the environment I was raised in. I always knew that I would get out of it, you know.

Joe Rogan 32:25 Mm-hmm.

Konstantin Kisin 32:26 Uh, and culture w- you know, whatever attitude, whatever you wanna call it, will, will push you through things that, if you don't have it, is gonna be impossible.

Joe Rogan 32:33 Right. If you don't have expectations that, you know, you kno- you don't know people that have succeeded in life and done well and-

Francis Foster 32:39 Mm-hmm.

Konstantin Kisin 32:40 That's a better word, expectations-

Joe Rogan 32:42 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 32:42 ... than culture.

Francis Foster 32:42 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 32:42 Expectations.

Joe Rogan 32:44 It's just... Oh. If you're in a fucking place like South Side of Chicago, have you ever looked at the murder rate? Fuck, man.

Francis Foster 32:49 Yeah, and it's h- it's heartbreaking.

Joe Rogan 32:50 There's so many crazy videos of shootouts in the street. It's like, wh-... I just watched one the other day. A guy pulls over, jumps out of the car, shoots these guys. (exhales sharply) It's just happening on the street. You're, these kids are growing up in a war zone. So, if you're a kid and you're growing up there and you're 15 years old, how many people have you seen killed? Three?

Francis Foster 33:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:08 Four? Five? How many have you seen killed? If you're... Are you out at night? Are you, at 13 years old, are you roaming around street- streets at night, being wild? And are, are you seeing gang violence? Are you, are you participating in it? Like... (exhales sharply)

Konstantin Kisin 33:21 And what do you want as a young man? You want status. You want money.

Joe Rogan 33:25 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 33:26 You want girls. Who are the people... All the people that you see around you, who are, who are the people that have that?

Joe Rogan 33:31 And also, it's probably pretty fucking exciting.

Francis Foster 33:34 Oh, man.

Konstantin Kisin 33:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:37 You know?

Francis Foster 33:37 (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 33:37 Shoot some guns, yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:38 A lot better than working at Lowe's.

Konstantin Kisin 33:40 Yep.

Francis Foster 33:40 When I was...

Francis Foster 33:41 Again, like, I was working in East London, and one of the... (sighs) This is a thing, you know, because you, I- I try always to have compassion for people. And o- obviously, you're human. Sometimes, you're just like, "You're f-"

Joe Rogan 33:52 Right.

Francis Foster 33:53 But (sighs) the thing that I found most heartbreaking, man, is like, there were kids in my class who I taught. They had learning difficulties. They were, you know, they, you know, they're low IQ. They weren't particularly bright. They were sweet kids. And they were just targeted by gangs 'cause gangs knew that they could groom them, that they were 10, 11 years old, there was no one at home, no one cared for them. They could groom them, and then they could become drug runners and whatever else. You know, my ex was an educational psychologist.

Joe Rogan 34:21 Oh, God.

Francis Foster 34:21 She was working with a lot of these kids. One of, one of her kids like went missing. Uh, h- he, the kid went missing, 10, 11 years old. This was in North London, she was working. The kid was found in Scotland. Literally, a different country at the other end of the island. And you're like, wh- you know. And it was, it was gang. It was gang.

Joe Rogan 34:39 Yeah.

Francis Foster 34:39 You know, 'cause they take them, they groom them, they give them money. They're the first person who shows them affection, the first person to show... "You know what? Everybody else has written you off. Everyone else thinks you're stupid. But you know what? Come and join us. Come and join us. I'll show you respect."

Joe Rogan 34:52 Mm-hmm.

Francis Foster 34:52 "You... I'm gonna give you responsibility. And you know what else you're gonna do? You're gonna get money."

Joe Rogan 34:58 Here's a question. We, we all have, we all have this vision of a utopian society where there is no longer war, there is no longer crime. And the... But, that's never existed.

Francis Foster 35:11 Well-

Joe Rogan 35:11 It's never existed even briefly. Isn't it w-... Is there something that human beings, it's almost like built into the operating system of human beings, that you need a certain amount of antagonists, a certain amount of protagonists, to keep things moving? And that the, the urgency that everybody feels right now is like social urgency. It's almost like we're building up to like an ideological Super Bowl.

Konstantin Kisin 35:37 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:38 Like, we're gonna figure out which one of these ideas makes the most sense. (laughs)

Francis Foster 35:42 (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 35:42 (laughs)

Francis Foster 35:42 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 35:43 You know? You know?

Konstantin Kisin 35:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:44 It's like, it feels like there's a, like this tension build-up. And I, I almost wonder...... if that's something that we need in order to figure things out. Like, we need this chaos. We need people trying to control narratives. We need people trying to censor people.

Konstantin Kisin 35:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:58 We need people to do it so we realize how horrific it is, so we act out and we talk about it. So it's not like this slow, creeping censorship where you don't notice it. It's like, it's shocking.

Konstantin Kisin 36:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 36:08 It's, they're sh- censoring news stories that could hurt the, you know, the, the, the party that they want to win in, in the elections. It's crazy stuff.

Konstantin Kisin 36:16 It, it is crazy. And we had the case with de-banking in the UK, where this guy Nigel Farage, I don't know if you know him, he-

Joe Rogan 36:21 I did hear about that story.

Konstantin Kisin 36:22 Yeah, he's kind of like the Donald Trump of the UK in some ways, you know, very unpopular with some things, very, uh, with some people, very popular with others. And his bank, uh, which was a kind of like bank for wealthy people, they closed his account without explaining why. Um, he started doing some digging. He did a freedom of information request or something. It's not called that, but it's basically the same thing. Um, and th- the bank came out and said it's 'cause he doesn't have enough money. Bullshit. Turned out it wasn't true. Uh, eventually, he got the information saying th- th- the transcripts of their internal conversations were that part of the reason they shut his account down was political, right? And then we had the Financial Conduct Authority, which is the people who are supposed to investigate this stuff, they did an investigation and said there was no political de-banking going on. All the newspapers reported it, and in paragraph five of that same article, you can see that his case was not taken into account in the report.

Joe Rogan 37:19 (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 37:19 Right? So they, th- they lied about it stage after stage after stage, and now you've got mainstream journalists spreading this crap-

Joe Rogan 37:27 Yeah, all they have to do-

Konstantin Kisin 37:27 ... that they know isn't true.

Joe Rogan 37:29 ... is have a good headline. All they have to do is have a good headline.

Konstantin Kisin 37:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:33 The inside of it can be nonsense, and they can even show you in front, right in front of your face why what they're saying is incorrect, and it doesn't matter.

Konstantin Kisin 37:40 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:40 (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 37:40 And then they all bitch and whine- ... and then they go, "Why is no one watching our content?" Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:44 Well, here's the wildest one that's going on right now. You know the Mar-a-Lago controversy of the f- the price- pricing or the, uh-

Konstantin Kisin 37:51 The inflated value of the house. Yeah, the value of the Mar-a-Lago, as they say. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:54 They, the judge ruled that it was worth 18 million. It's 20 acres in, like, the most expensive real estate in that area.

Konstantin Kisin 38:02 Mm.

Joe Rogan 38:02 Like a house down the street from it, much smaller, just sold for $50 million.

Konstantin Kisin 38:07 Wow.

Joe Rogan 38:07 Even if Forbes said it's worth somewhere between... I think... See what Forbes said. I think they said it was worth between 300 and $700 million. And, uh, they were saying that it's worth 18 million. (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 38:19 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:23 It's like they don't even try to pretend.

Konstantin Kisin 38:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:25 Like, if, if the guy-

Konstantin Kisin 38:25 Why, why does no one trust the mainstream?

Joe Rogan 38:27 ... if the guy says his house is worth a billion dollars, right?

Konstantin Kisin 38:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:30 And then you come along and say, "No, no, no, it's worth like 800 million." Forbes says it's worth as much as 700 million. We're gonna... We'll call it 700 million. Now you got a reasonable argument.

Konstantin Kisin 38:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:39 But if you say 18 million, like, you gotta know, that's like a palace.

Konstantin Kisin 38:44 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:44 That place is a palace. It's 20 acres.

Konstantin Kisin 38:47 And-

Joe Rogan 38:47 Get the fuck out of here. This is crazy. You can't do that. That's like too obvious that you're just... You don't give a fuck about the truth. They don't.

Konstantin Kisin 38:54 They don't.

Joe Rogan 38:54 You don't give a fuck about the truth. Oh, he claimed it was worth 1.5 billion-

Konstantin Kisin 38:58 Ah.

Joe Rogan 38:58 ... in latest plea to drop fraud case, but judge ruled it's wildly inflated. Yeah, but the judge does not have a, a, an accurate sense of the market, in my opinion. It just... The, the property's size alone, it's such a giant chunk of property.

Konstantin Kisin 39:15 A- you know- So that says it's worth somewhere, about f- half a bill, right? Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:19 Is that what, is that what that's...

Konstantin Kisin 39:20 Well, he-

Joe Rogan 39:20 No. See, he said, the judge was saying that it's worth between eight... Oh, it says... Okay, um, citing an appraisal report from the City of Palm Beach that pegged the value of Mar-a-Lago between 18 million and 27.6 million between 2011 and 2021.

Konstantin Kisin 39:36 Oh, right.

Joe Rogan 39:36 Okay, so it was 18 million, and now it's worth, because of inflation, 27. Um, 325 million, that's how much Forbes estimated Mar-a-Lago's worth as of September, although he pegged its net value at 292 million after deducting roughly 33 million in debt. Okay, so it's got debt. So I think what this, what they're saying the scam is, is you wildly overinflate a piece of real estate. Again, I don't know jack shit about real estate, all right? Just to, just-

Konstantin Kisin 40:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:05 But I think what you do is you say, "I got a house worth a billion dollars. I need a loan."

Konstantin Kisin 40:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:09 And they give you a loan based on this billion dollar property you have.

Konstantin Kisin 40:13 Right.

Joe Rogan 40:13 But if then they send an appraiser to you and say, "Hey, this house is worth 18 million," then you're like, "Uh-oh." So now you really got a loan, but you got a loan based on something that's not really worth as much. So th- their collateral or whatever it is that they would... The reason why they would give you that much money doesn't make any sense.

Konstantin Kisin 40:30 Mm.

Joe Rogan 40:30 But clearly, that can't be accurate. Have you ever seen pictures of that fucking place?

Konstantin Kisin 40:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:34 Show some photos of Mar-a-Lago.

Konstantin Kisin 40:36 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:37 And, and if that was 18 million, dudes would be buying them every day.

Konstantin Kisin 40:40 Right.

Joe Rogan 40:40 They... That would... It would last three seconds on the market before somebody bought it. People would just be calling up. The phone lines would get jammed.

Konstantin Kisin 40:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:47 "I'll take it."

Konstantin Kisin 40:48 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:48 "Sight unseen, I'll take it."

Konstantin Kisin 40:50 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:50 18 million?

Konstantin Kisin 40:51 Or t-

Joe Rogan 40:51 Even 27 million.

Konstantin Kisin 40:53 Calling it 1.5 billion is a Trump thing to say. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:56 (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 40:56 (laughs) It's the greatest house.

Joe Rogan 40:58 My favorite thing, my f- favorite thing about the whole speech is he talks about himself in the third person. "The judge hates Trump."

Konstantin Kisin 41:03 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 41:04 That's what he keeps saying.

Konstantin Kisin 41:05 I mean, that is a... That's a nice house.

Joe Rogan 41:07 It's a terrible... It's a...

Konstantin Kisin 41:08 It's a nice house. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 41:09 It's a fucking palace, man. Look at that place. It's insane.

Konstantin Kisin 41:12 Do you know-

Joe Rogan 41:12 And the inside of it is all like... Look, click on that photo of Trump there with the chandelier. Look how fucking beautiful it is inside.

Konstantin Kisin 41:20 Pfft, man, that is ridiculous. I mean, look, maybe it's me being a Brit, but I look at it and go, "It's a bit fucking much, that."

Joe Rogan 41:26 Oh, it's a lot much.

Konstantin Kisin 41:28 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 41:28 It's not my style.

Konstantin Kisin 41:30 That looks like something out of a Russian czar's house, you know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 41:33 Yes. That's what I like about it.

Konstantin Kisin 41:35 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 41:35 That's what I want Trump's house to look like.

Konstantin Kisin 41:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 41:37 If Trump lived in some bullshit fucking log cabin, I'd be so disappointed.

Konstantin Kisin 41:41 Right, right.

Joe Rogan 41:42 If Trump lived in, like, fucking John Dutton's house on Yellowstone, what are you doing bro?

Konstantin Kisin 41:46 Yeah, that-

Joe Rogan 41:46 You should be balling.

Konstantin Kisin 41:47 Yeah. That's on brand, as we say.

Joe Rogan 41:49 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 41:49 That's on brand. What a house, man.

Joe Rogan 41:50 Look at the size of that property.

Konstantin Kisin 41:51 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:52 So those little houses around there are selling for (laughs) like $30 million.

Konstantin Kisin 41:56 Wow.

Joe Rogan 41:56 Like, that's crazy expensive property there.

Konstantin Kisin 41:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:58 To think that that's only worth 18 million to 27 million, that's, that seems a little insane.

Konstantin Kisin 42:03 You know the thing that always gets me, man, is like...

Francis Foster 42:06 ... you, uh, you read in the mainstream media, and they criticize our podcast and, and y- and your show, and, and, uh, and then they go, "These people spread misinformation." I'm like, "Mate, like, what, what are you talking about? You've been spreading misinformation from day one." You know what I mean?

Konstantin Kisin 42:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:23 Mm-hmm.

Francis Foster 42:24 It's like getting a lecture on dating from Ted Bundy. You're like, "Mate, come on. Y-"

Joe Rogan 42:28 Yeah, it seems crazy for them to keep harping on that at this point. It's like, don't you know about the internet?

Konstantin Kisin 42:34 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:34 Like, that people have made... They've made, like, compilation videos of you guys being wrong over and over and over-

Francis Foster 42:40 Oh, true. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:40 ... and over and over again, and you've never apologized for it. The, I mean, whatever you wanna talk about, whether it's the, the Russia collusion thing or the saying the dangers of Trump denying the election. Then you show, like, how many people denied Trump's election.

Konstantin Kisin 42:54 Right.

Francis Foster 42:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:54 It was the, calling him the illegitimate president.

Konstantin Kisin 42:56 Hillary called him-

Francis Foster 42:57 Yes.

Konstantin Kisin 42:57 ... an illegitimate president.

Joe Rogan 42:59 Yeah, they said he stole the election. Like, it, that kinda... If you think that's dangerous from him, then it's dangerous from you too. And we should all acknowledge that we should try to figure out a way to make the elections as fair as possible.

Konstantin Kisin 43:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 43:10 My real fear is that not everybody's on board with that. That's my real fear. I would love to believe that everybody on the right and everybody on the left just wants a fair battle, and they just wanna be able to speak their mind to the public and have the people choose. That's what I would like, like to believe. And that we would like to encourage all Americans to vote. Everyone should just g- get informed and go out there and give your opinion, and let's see how the country feels.

Konstantin Kisin 43:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:40 But I don't know how much shenanigans is going on. You know there's a little.

Francis Foster 43:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 43:45 You know there's a little collusion between, you know, social media companies. We know that now.

Konstantin Kisin 43:50 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 43:50 That's, that's kinda scary. That's kinda scary that you would think that what you believe is so important that you're willing to manipulate an election. That scares you.

Konstantin Kisin 44:00 Yes.

Joe Rogan 44:00 It just, it should scare us 'cause it's like, man, they could use that on you. I mean, we could have this... Imagine if there's like, we have this fucking amazing person who's running for president, and like, finally, all rational people in the center, people that are rational on the right and the left agree this person has the country's best ideas in mind. And we've made, l- like, awesome progress with the way this person is communicating with everybody and seems like they could really unite us. And they get fucked. Somebody comes in and just manipulates it.

Francis Foster 44:30 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:30 Doesn't like the idea of some new person taking charge, doesn't like some i- the idea of some radical thinker who wants to try to make things as good as possible for the, the whole country, and that maybe there's a way to do that. And they get fucked by some establishment spokesperson because they know how to manipulate the system.

Konstantin Kisin 44:51 And look at the thing, the people that rise to the top in the current system in your country and in ours. I mean, the idea that these two people, whoever they end up being, if it's Biden and Trump, let's say, these are the best people out of 320 million fucking people?

Joe Rogan 45:05 Well, the thing about Biden is he's already won, right? So he is the president.

Konstantin Kisin 45:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:08 So it only makes sense that he runs for president-

Konstantin Kisin 45:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:10 ... if he's physically capable of doing that. The thing about Trump is, there's, you know, the narrative that he and a lot of his followers put out is that the election was rigged and that, you know, he should be the illegitimate, the legitimate president anyway.

Konstantin Kisin 45:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 45:27 And no one else is... There's, there's, no one's voting for anybody else. Like, the- these hardcore Trumpers, they're, they're gonna go all in on Trump.

Konstantin Kisin 45:34 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 45:35 So it's like, "Okay, w- how else could it be other than Trump versus Biden?" Unless they arrest Trump, unless they figure out a way to make some of these charges stick.

Francis Foster 45:43 And here's the thing with Trump, you know. You know, to him, this isn't, this is no longer a presidential race. To him, this is existential because this is probably the only chance he's gonna have of avoiding jail. So, you look at it like that and you think, Trump is already a guy who, let's put it bluntly and mildly, will do whatever it takes to win. And if you could put a guy like that and you say, "The only way that you're going to avo- avoid jail is to win the presidency," you're already notching it up a few ratchet when it comes to making the

Francis Foster 46:21 atmosphere really toxic.

Konstantin Kisin 46:22 And you can play that argument the other way. I mean, in terms of Biden and the investigations that are happening. Donald Trump gets elected, what is he gonna do? That, they, they, they would argue that too, right?

Francis Foster 46:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:32 The Biden thing is fascinating to watch people ignore it.

Konstantin Kisin 46:35 Did you see Noam Dworman's interview with that guy? Uh, the-

Joe Rogan 46:39 No, I did not.

Konstantin Kisin 46:40 You never saw... Oh, man. It's, uh, Noam Dworman from The Cellar, from The Comedy Cellar.

Joe Rogan 46:43 Oh, okay.

Konstantin Kisin 46:44 He had a guy on his podcast who he billed up as, like, the most sane, uh, guy who says the, the Hunter Biden thing was a nothing burger. And they went round for, like, an hour, and the guy just would not... He, he, he was the craziest thing that I've ever seen. I'll send it to you.

Joe Rogan 47:00 Okay.

Konstantin Kisin 47:00 Yeah.

Francis Foster 47:01 It's a journo from The Washington Post.

Konstantin Kisin 47:02 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:04 And he thinks it's nothing?

Francis Foster 47:05 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 47:05 Yeah. But, but when, when-

Joe Rogan 47:06 Is he doing mental gymnastics?

Konstantin Kisin 47:08 Yeah, so when No- Noam essentially corners him and goes, "No, no, look at this, look at this," the guy just, he, he just lea- he wants to leave. That's it.

Joe Rogan 47:15 Hmm. Yeah, well, that's a fucking live wire for them. They don't wanna touch that.

Konstantin Kisin 47:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:21 You know, it's like there's really no defending it rationally. So if you're on the team that has to defend the, the left, which, you know, you've all seen people like that on podcasts before where you realize, like, "Oh, this guy is just... This isn't, like, a real person. This is a, the, a representative-"

Francis Foster 47:34 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:34 "... of whatever they're for, whether it's the right or the left." You kn- you know those, there's people like that-

Konstantin Kisin 47:38 Mm-hmm.

Francis Foster 47:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:38 ... where you never really see them.

Konstantin Kisin 47:40 Yeah.

Francis Foster 47:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:40 You know, they, they have walls. And what they're doing is just, like, speaking that kind of language. There's, there's always gonna be people like that.

Konstantin Kisin 47:48 We gotta get back... Or not back, I don't think we were ever there, but we gotta get somehow the idea that truth matters, man. And it, it doesn't matter what fucking team you're on, the truth matters if you're left, right, up, down, whatever. The truth matters.

Joe Rogan 47:58 Well, I think that's what we're doing right now.

Konstantin Kisin 47:59 Yeah.

Francis Foster 48:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:00 I think (laughs) that's what we do. And that's one of the reasons why your show works.

Francis Foster 48:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:03 And that's one of the reasons why this show works is 'cause people can just talk.

Francis Foster 48:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:06 And they can, they can do so in a way that y- you really, it's not available anywhere else. The reason why people are so hungry for these kinda conversations on podcasts is 'cause you can't get it anywhere else. The, like, these other people aren't doing it. They're doing a different thing. They're doing a thing where there's a giant business behind it, and there's advertisers, and there's, uh, a bunch of executives and producers, and they all have segments that they've developed, and there's writers and everyone. And then you get to express yourself sort of through this very narrow window.

Francis Foster 48:33 Mm-hmm.

Konstantin Kisin 48:33 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 48:33 ... to be able to just sit and shoot the shit and just, just say, "Why is this? And why is that? And what is this? And what is that?" Like, that kind of freedom to do that, it's never existed before.

Konstantin Kisin 48:44 Yeah.

Francis Foster 48:44 No. And they're all terrified of a Twitter storm.

Konstantin Kisin 48:47 Yeah.

Francis Foster 48:47 They're all

Francis Foster 48:48 terrified of a Twitter storm. You see it in our politics-

Joe Rogan 48:51 Mm-hmm.

Francis Foster 48:51 ... you know, where somebody says something... Like, the hot topic at the moment is illimi- is immigration, particularly illegal immigration. So, there's a lot of people coming from France to the UK illegally. They just jump in a boat from France illegally. And these... It's run by cartels and gangs. And the, the really sad thing is some of these people actually drown in the English Channel as a result. And they come, and they come to the UK. This needs to stop. You just can't have unfiltered illegal immigration. Yet you get people on, cons- politicians to go, "Look, we need to stop this." And then people are calling... They're saying that they're... You know, one very famous ex-sportsman compares that to Nazi Germany.

Joe Rogan 49:34 It, it's like, why is it happening in this big rush? Is this engineered? Like, why is it happening like this? Like, what is it about this, uh... The... It seems like at least some people want to keep the borders open.

Konstantin Kisin 49:50 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Francis Foster 49:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:51 It seems like it.

Konstantin Kisin 49:52 Yeah.

Francis Foster 49:52 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:52 It seems like something's changed, where they've made it easier for people to just come across.

Konstantin Kisin 49:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:58 So, what happened?

Konstantin Kisin 50:00 Right.

Joe Rogan 50:00 Like, whose idea is that?

Konstantin Kisin 50:01 Right.

Joe Rogan 50:02 And then what is this crazy push where you want people to not have ID to vote?

Konstantin Kisin 50:09 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:09 But you want people to have ID to make sure you have a vaccine passport, or you can't work or get on a plane? And did you check any of these people to see if they were vaccinated when they came aboard? You really didn't, did you? So, what do... What are we doing here?

Konstantin Kisin 50:24 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 50:24 Like, what is it?

Konstantin Kisin 50:24 It's crazy.

Joe Rogan 50:25 It's like, hundreds of thousands of people a month.

Konstantin Kisin 50:28 Hm.

Joe Rogan 50:28 It's crazy.

Konstantin Kisin 50:29 You brought it up earlier. I think we talked about this last time, with, you know, Tom Masel, who's just like... I mean, he's a h- I- I love... I've read every book that he's ever published, and I just think he's amazing. You know, we talked about the tragic vision versus the, the slightly more utopian way of looking at things. You know, when you were talking about crime earlier. The tragic vision of life kind of says, if you look back at our history, you kind of get a sense of what human beings are.

Joe Rogan 50:53 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 50:53 And human beings are flawed. They're not perfect. They will commit crime. They will do terrible things. They will go to war. Uh, they will do that. And so the only thing you can do is know that and then act accordingly, right? That means that you have to have a border. That means you have to have a police force. You have to recognize the fallibility of human beings and the societal dynamics as well. And then you can make good policy.

Francis Foster 51:17 Hm.

Joe Rogan 51:17 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 51:17 That's how you make good policy.

Francis Foster 51:19 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 51:19 But if you live in this blue sky world only... The blue sky world is great for inspiring you to be better than your human instincts and all of that. But there's also a real world in which you have to... You have to be able to live in both.

Francis Foster 51:29 Hm.

Joe Rogan 51:29 Mm-hmm.

Konstantin Kisin 51:29 And it's hard. It's really hard.

Francis Foster 51:31 Mm-hmm.

Konstantin Kisin 51:31 But if you can do that, you can hopefully make improvements because you're trying to be better. You're trying to speak to your own and other people's better angels. And at the same time, you have to recognize that not everybody's a good guy. Some people are terrorists. Some people are murderers. Some people are rapists. Some people will do things that you don't want to happen, and you have to also tackle that at the same time. And immigration, countries need borders, man. That's something people used to agree a- about, left and right. The... I, I, I... You know, I've, I've quoted Barack Obama talking about this. We need borders.

Joe Rogan 52:04 Yeah, he was talking about that when he was running for president.

Konstantin Kisin 52:06 Yeah.

Francis Foster 52:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:07 He's saying something (laughs) that would get Trump canceled today.

Konstantin Kisin 52:09 Yeah.

Francis Foster 52:09 Yes. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:10 It's, um-

Konstantin Kisin 52:11 What do you think happened, Joe?

Joe Rogan 52:12 I don't know. But I don't know how it can keep happening. I don't know how anybody doesn't recognize that it's a problem and go, "Hey, let's sort this out." I don't know. It's... You don't wanna go full tinfoil hat. Nobody does.

Konstantin Kisin 52:28 Hm.

Joe Rogan 52:29 Nobody wants to, like... Are they engineering-

Francis Foster 52:30 I mean, some people do. (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 52:33 (laughs)

Francis Foster 52:33 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:33 (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 52:33 Let's be fair about it.

Joe Rogan 52:33 All the el-... Some people. Some people do.

Konstantin Kisin 52:35 (laughs)

Francis Foster 52:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:37 That's not important right now. We don't talk about...

Konstantin Kisin 52:39 (laughs)

Francis Foster 52:39 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:39 If you should just stop and think about all of these converging factors, all these things that are happening simultaneously-

Konstantin Kisin 52:45 Hm.

Joe Rogan 52:45 ... right? Okay. All- first of all, massive dip in the economy from the COVID pandemic, businesses closing.

Konstantin Kisin 52:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:53 Then you have George Floyd. Then you have riots. Then you have defund the police. Then you have massive theft in... Do you know how much more theft there is? Lowe's hardware store lost g- google this. I think in 2022, they lost $900 million in theft. Yeah, just people walking into their stores and stealing drills and shit. Just stealing things. 'Cause in some places, you can get away with stealing as much as $900 and they're not even allowed to stop you.

Francis Foster 53:26 I mean, that is a recipe for chaos. But, but-

Joe Rogan 53:29 See if that's true.

Konstantin Kisin 53:30 (laughs)

Francis Foster 53:31 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:31 I wanna, I wanna make sure that Lowe's thinks it's true.

Konstantin Kisin 53:33 This is new media. We actually check the facts.

Francis Foster 53:35 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:36 Yes, and then shout out to our friend Andrew Doyle and his new book, uh, The New Puritans.

Konstantin Kisin 53:40 Yeah.

Francis Foster 53:40 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 53:40 Andrew's awesome.

Joe Rogan 53:41 Did, did he ever get kicked off of Twitter? Did Tatiana McGrath get kicked off?

Francis Foster 53:44 Yeah, yeah. Yeah,

Francis Foster 53:45 he g- yeah, he got kicked off a couple of times, I think.

Joe Rogan 53:46 Look at that. Shrink in theft losses, near one billion at Lowe's. Here's how much it's costing other retailers. Yeah, so it's r- it's true. It's almost a billion dollars they lost.

Konstantin Kisin 53:55 What does shrink mean?

Joe Rogan 53:56 Shrink and theft loss. That's a good question. What does that mean?

Konstantin Kisin 53:58 Yeah, I don't know.

Francis Foster 53:59 I don't know.

Joe Rogan 54:00 So, shrink and theft. Is shrink like internal theft or... What does that mean?

Konstantin Kisin 54:05 Yeah, it says it's blaming it on shrink.

Joe Rogan 54:07 What does that mean?

Konstantin Kisin 54:08 Or items lost to factors. Oh, external or employee theft.

Francis Foster 54:11 Employee theft.

Joe Rogan 54:11 Oh, okay. External or employee, so that's... Okay. Um, so what is the actual number?

Konstantin Kisin 54:17 Uh, I have no idea.

Joe Rogan 54:17 So, it says it in there somewhere, I'm pretty sure. Target lost 219 million.

Konstantin Kisin 54:25 I think it's slightly further down, Jo- uh, Jamie. Just a little bit. Oh, there you go, 997, is that it?

Joe Rogan 54:30 997 million, up from ... They lost 796 billion in 2021. Oh my God. Imagine insuring them.

Francis Foster 54:39 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:39 Imagine insuring ... you're gonna insure a store that you know is gonna get robbed.

Francis Foster 54:43 But, but just imagine this, Joe. So, uh, I've got, uh, uh ... Actually, Konstantin went to speak at this festival. It's a very prestig- prestigious festival in the UK called How The Light Gets In, right? And I have friends who go and speak there and go and watch it, debates. Like I said, Konstantin took part in a debate there. And one of my friends went to watch because his partner, she was speaking there and hosting debates. And I, and I said to him, "How was it, mate?" And he said, "Do you know the thing that was really worrying?" I go, "What?" He goes ... And bear in mind these are some of the most educated people in the UK. At least one of them per panel, per debate went, "Look, until we abolish capitalism-"

Joe Rogan 55:19 (laughs)

Francis Foster 55:20 "... then we're never gonna solve these problems."

Joe Rogan 55:22 (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 55:22 (laughs)

Francis Foster 55:22 And it's just like, you're talking about genetics. Why are you talking about abolishing capitalism?

Joe Rogan 55:27 (sighs)

Francis Foster 55:27 But think about it like this-

Joe Rogan 55:28 It's a

Joe Rogan 55:29 virtue.

Konstantin Kisin 55:29 Yeah. There's not a lot of science research that happens outside.

Francis Foster 55:31 (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 55:32 Do you know what I mean?

Francis Foster 55:32 Yeah. Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 55:33 You need, you need money to, to do research.

Joe Rogan 55:35 Uh, duh.

Francis Foster 55:35 Exactly.

Konstantin Kisin 55:36 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:36 (laughs)

Francis Foster 55:36 But-

Konstantin Kisin 55:37 You think a scientist would get that?

Francis Foster 55:39 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:39 You know, the problem is, you know, you're, they're so insulated in these university-

Francis Foster 55:43 Mm.

Joe Rogan 55:44 ... like, ecosystems. They're so insulated. If you're a professional academic, I mean, look, it's a noble thing. It's an amazing thing to be a professor.

Francis Foster 55:53 Mm.

Joe Rogan 55:53 It's an amazing thing to be educating kids and shaping minds and exposing them to great literature and mathematics and all the, all the wonderful things professors teach. But the reality of their existence is you go from being a high school student to-

Francis Foster 56:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 56:08 ... a college university student, to getting your master's degree, to getting your PhD, to teaching. You're constantly in this world, and that world is almost entirely left wing, like radically left wing.

Francis Foster 56:19 Mm.

Joe Rogan 56:19 Like, the, like the ... What is the percentage of, like, far left professors? You, you almost even think, when you think professor, like far left, that's like Catholic priest-

Francis Foster 56:30 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:30 ... pedophile.

Konstantin Kisin 56:31 Right.

Joe Rogan 56:31 You know what I mean?

Konstantin Kisin 56:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:32 Like, you know what I'm saying?

Francis Foster 56:33 Yeah, yeah, of course, yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:33 Unfortunately, they're connected-

Konstantin Kisin 56:35 Right.

Joe Rogan 56:35 ... in your head.

Francis Foster 56:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:36 No, but, so y- you hear about that, you think far left professor. And-

Konstantin Kisin 56:40 But John Haidt talks about it in, in his book.

Joe Rogan 56:41 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 56:42 On social, um, social studies and stuff like anything, um, anything to do with that, it's like n- nine to one or 10 to one.

Francis Foster 56:49 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 56:49 Sometimes 100 to one.

Joe Rogan 56:50 Yeah. So then they're in that world where it's constantly, they're constantly being reinforced, like these ideas are reinforced and never challenged. And almost, you know, ridiculously so, like really bright people talk like they're in a cult, like avoiding reality and bending truth to, to placate whatever the, the new social norm is for anything.

Konstantin Kisin 57:11 Mm.

Joe Rogan 57:11 It's, it's like, it's, it's bizarre to see. And so those people are always gonna be in conflict with reality. So when they're like, you know, "We should abolish capitalism," like-

Francis Foster 57:22 Mm-hmm.

Konstantin Kisin 57:22 ... "AK."

Joe Rogan 57:23 Like, you live in a fucking playground.

Konstantin Kisin 57:25 Mm.

Francis Foster 57:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:25 Like what are you talking about? Like-

Konstantin Kisin 57:26 Right.

Joe Rogan 57:27 You, you're not out-

Konstantin Kisin 57:27 It's a good description.

Joe Rogan 57:28 You're not out there in the real world, you're teaching kids. You're teaching kids at a playground and you're the god 'cause you're the, you're the professor with all the knowledge. Stop.

Francis Foster 57:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:36 No, you can't. It's never been done before, stupid. Like (laughs) like communism never works.

Konstantin Kisin 57:39 We tried.

Francis Foster 57:40 (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 57:40 Yeah, we tried. Had, look at how that worked out.

Joe Rogan 57:42 It leads to violence.

Konstantin Kisin 57:42 Right.

Joe Rogan 57:42 It leads to fucking authoritarianism. It leads to dictatorships. W- that you gotta enforce people following all these rules.

Konstantin Kisin 57:49 You have to, that's the point.

Joe Rogan 57:50 And giving up all their money and giving up all their land. Yeah, yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 57:51 You have to use violence. You have to use violence to make that work.

Francis Foster 57:54 Yeah. What, what, what, what, uh, Yeonmi Park talks about when she talks about, uh, her experience in North Korea-

Konstantin Kisin 57:59 Mm.

Joe Rogan 57:59 ... when she fled North Korea, she said they promised everyone that they would be able to feed everyone if they took over the land.

Francis Foster 58:06 (scoffs)

Joe Rogan 58:06 That was, that's how they got everyone's land.

Francis Foster 58:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:08 That's how they got everybody to give up. And now they're fucked. And that is happening right now in 2023. The way Yeonmi Park describes North Korea is actually the way North Korea is right now.

Francis Foster 58:19 Mm.

Konstantin Kisin 58:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:20 So don't think that that can't happen here. Don't think that ca- ... They're regulating podcasts in Canada.

Francis Foster 58:25 Oh, yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 58:25 Have you seen this?

Francis Foster 58:25 I know I was rea- Yeah, I was reading about this, about this bill, this, because I, I, I woke up and I, you know, went jet lagged, so I woke up at ridiculous time. I went on the phone sh- which you should never do, let's be honest. That is a bad way to start the day.

Joe Rogan 58:37 It's not good.

Konstantin Kisin 58:38 (laughs)

Francis Foster 58:38 Not ... And then I was reading about what they're doing. It's terrifying. So they wanna bring in this bill whereby they regulate podcasts. So what they wanna do is every, every, uh, podcast, uh, streamer or whatever it is, platform, that makes more than $10 million revenue, not profit, revenue, has to register with the Canadian government. They then d- want them to hand over information about their content and the people listening-

Joe Rogan 59:06 (laughs) Fuck me.

Francis Foster 59:08 ... to their, right, to their-

Joe Rogan 59:10 Oh my God.

Francis Foster 59:11 ... to the, to the, to the government. Trudeau-

Joe Rogan 59:12 Imagine getting a hold of Alex Jones's email list. (laughs)

Francis Foster 59:17 (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 59:17 (laughs) Probably a bunch of senators on there.

Francis Foster 59:19 (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 59:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:20 Yeah.

Francis Foster 59:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:20 Oh yeah, for sure. I mean, imagine.

Francis Foster 59:22 Yeah. And then-

Joe Rogan 59:23 The government can get that.

Francis Foster 59:24 They're talking right now about, and maybe, uh, we- we're gonna need to fact check this again 'cause I me- I was reading it this morning, but basically they wanted to promote Canadian, uh, something to do with like basically what M- Ca- Canadian greatness or whatever it is they, they talk about-

Joe Rogan 59:40 Mm-hmm.

Francis Foster 59:40 ... it and indigenous affairs. And you're like, oh, so they're gonna say a number of things are un-Canadian and then you can just silence them. Look what Trodo- Trudo- Trudeau did with the truckers.

Joe Rogan 59:52 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 59:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:53 Terrifying.

Konstantin Kisin 59:53 We just had one of their guys on to talk about it.

Joe Rogan 59:55 Not just the truckers, but people who donated to the truckers got their bank accounts closed.

Konstantin Kisin 59:59 Yeah.

Francis Foster 1:00:00 Yeah, and-

Joe Rogan 1:00:00 But that is wild.

Konstantin Kisin 1:00:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:02 You got locked out of all of your money because you donated to a cause where you didn't think that people should have to take an experimental vaccine in order to be able to work to drive a truck.

Francis Foster 1:00:12 But-

Joe Rogan 1:00:13 Really?

Francis Foster 1:00:14 (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 1:00:14 No.

Joe Rogan 1:00:14 Really? You're gonna ... You think that's okay? Like that's so not okay. The fact that b- those people aren't up in arms. The whole country didn't freak out and d- demand-... a, a fucking change. Like, you can't have... That's dictatorship stuff.

Konstantin Kisin 1:00:28 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:00:28 That's what that is. It's banana republic stuff.

Konstantin Kisin 1:00:31 We do these calls with our top supporters, and we have some in Canada. We have this lady who's been supporting us for years, and she... You know, she's always fine. And in the middle of this thing, she was like, "I'm terrified. I ca- I'm not gonna be able to eat because they, they're gonna shut down my bank account."

Joe Rogan 1:00:45 God.

Konstantin Kisin 1:00:46 Right?

Joe Rogan 1:00:47 (sighs) Pfft.

Konstantin Kisin 1:00:48 In Canada.

Joe Rogan 1:00:49 It's so crazy that they'd think they could do that if people disagree with them, because that's all they're doing. They're just disagreeing, and they're supporting a protest. It should be e-... And it was a peaceful protest. Those people did it the right way. They just parked their trucks, and they didn't block roads off. They didn't do anything fucked up.

Konstantin Kisin 1:01:06 But if you frame it that these people, which is w- how they were being framed, as racist, far-right, "Well, look-

Joe Rogan 1:01:12 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 1:01:12 ... they, you're giving money to a far-right racist organization. You're encouraging hate. Well, well, the government has to step in. We have to step in, and we need to freeze everything because we need to make everything safe."

Joe Rogan 1:01:25 W- what was this most recent apology because they accidentally-

Konstantin Kisin 1:01:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:29 ... awarded a Nazi-

Konstantin Kisin 1:01:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:31 Like, what? What happened?

Konstantin Kisin 1:01:32 I think S- so I think Zelenskyy was visiting the Canadian Parliament, and they got some guy who was a Ukrainian, inverted commas, "war veteran." Turned out he fought for the, for the bad guys in that one.

Joe Rogan 1:01:45 Oh, my God.

Konstantin Kisin 1:01:46 Yeah. Uh, I don't think they... I don't think, like, Zelenskyy or... I, I don't know if-

Joe Rogan 1:01:50 He probably didn't know.

Konstantin Kisin 1:01:50 Yeah, he didn't know, but... So, so imagine you're sitting in Parliament and then everyone's like, "Hey, let's, uh, do a st- you know, stand up-

Joe Rogan 1:01:56 (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 1:01:56 ... and, and give a round of applause for this war veteran." You're like, "I don't know." And then it turns out you're applauding a Nazi.

Joe Rogan 1:02:01 How old is this dude?

Konstantin Kisin 1:02:02 Old. Old. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:03 Like, he probably doesn't even know.

Konstantin Kisin 1:02:04 (laughs)

Narrator 1:02:05 (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 1:02:05 "I'm not a good guy."

Narrator 1:02:06 (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 1:02:07 "I'm not a fucking good guy."

Joe Rogan 1:02:08 Maybe he's, like, tricked himself into-

Konstantin Kisin 1:02:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:10 ... being seen as a Nazi.

Konstantin Kisin 1:02:11 Yeah. Imagine. Yeah. I mean, how do you... If you're a sane person, uh, like, how do you deal with that fact that you committed all of these heinous crimes?

Joe Rogan 1:02:24 Yeah, if you're living in that time, do you think it's just everyone's doing it, and you just get sucked into the cult, and you're scared, or you believe it? Is it that easy for human beings to other people? Is it because it was a different time and people just didn't, didn't have as much exposure to, to, to, to knowledge as they do today, and that wouldn't be as possible today? I hate to think that that's a possi-... 'Cause there's always been times in history when people committed genocide.

Konstantin Kisin 1:02:52 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:53 There's always been times in history when people have decided that this other group, and oftentimes, the other group that looks exactly like they do-

Konstantin Kisin 1:02:58 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:02:59 ... right? The, the, those are the bad people, for whe- whether it's because of religion or a line-

Konstantin Kisin 1:03:03 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:03 ... they drew in the dirt, they've decided that those people are worth exterminating.

Konstantin Kisin 1:03:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:08 And the- those stories are fucking horrific, and that, the Nazi Germany one is just the latest one. It's just the, the one that we call upon, but, you know, just think about what the Mongols did.

Konstantin Kisin 1:03:20 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:21 You know? That's in the... In 1200, think about what they did. They, they just sacked ence- entire cities, just killed everybody, piled them up in big fucking stacks, lit everything on fire, took all the women, and then just left town. And they did that all over Europe, all over Asia. They did it all o-... They've, they've ran everything.

Konstantin Kisin 1:03:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:39 They killed something, something in the neighborhood of 10% of the world's population was murdered during Genghis Khan's era, so much so that the carbon footprint of human beings on Earth got lower. It was, it was progressive. (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 1:03:53 Donkey people, like- (laughs) Yeah.

Narrator 1:03:53 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:54 That's how many people he killed.

Konstantin Kisin 1:03:55 Yeah. You, you know, there's a lot of historians in Russia who say that many of the, the, the reasons the way Russian people are the way they are, and there's a lot of, like, trauma in society that's carrying on-

Joe Rogan 1:04:05 Mm-hmm.

Konstantin Kisin 1:04:05 ... is from that period. We have a lot of words in Russian for cruelty and all that sort of thing that come from that period.

Joe Rogan 1:04:11 Completely makes sense. Completely makes sense. I mean, just imagine, I mean, the, the horror of a, a gigantic army of men on horseback intent on murdering everyone in front of them, and that that was consistent with the era. It was normal stuff. There was like, "Oh, the Mongols are here. We're fucked." You know? Like, that was, that was... That's a thing that human beings have always done for some strange reason. They've always done that. And, uh, the thing, the thing about today is that as much as we know about humans and much, uh, access to technology we have and the con- interconnectivity that we have with each other, there's still war. And no one... If you had to put your money, if you're a gambler, on the-

Konstantin Kisin 1:04:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:53 ... within 10 years, will there be no war on Earth?

Konstantin Kisin 1:04:55 (laughs)

Narrator 1:04:55 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:55 Fuck. (laughs) What kind of odds am I getting?

Konstantin Kisin 1:04:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:58 You know? 'Cause, um, with for sure, there's gonna be something popping off somewhere.

Konstantin Kisin 1:05:01 We're- Yeah. ... bands of chimps, man.

Joe Rogan 1:05:02 Yep.

Narrator 1:05:02 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 1:05:02 That's what we are.

Joe Rogan 1:05:03 Mm-hmm.

Konstantin Kisin 1:05:03 We're bands of chimps, and chimps-

Narrator 1:05:04 But-

Konstantin Kisin 1:05:04 ... go to war-

Narrator 1:05:05 Mm-hmm.

Konstantin Kisin 1:05:05 ... and so do we. Absolutely. But then, there's also the flip side of it, where there are... Like, you know, like... I'll, I'll always tell this story 'cause to me, it's... This, this is a story of my grandfather. So my grandfather, uh, in the second World War, he used to... He was a master joiner, which is the highest level of carpenter you could get. And he used to work in a factory in Manchester on the Mosquito planes. And the f- and the fascinating thing about the Mosquito was it was the only airplane... It was a fighter airplane, and it was made entirely out of wood.

Joe Rogan 1:05:35 Whoa.

Konstantin Kisin 1:05:35 Yeah. So it was... Because the Messerschmitt was very lumbering. It was very heavy. It was a great fighter plane, but it wasn't very nimble, and the Mosquito was, and it was m- so... And he was making Mosquitos, so he was exempt from going to war. And he... I think it was 1941, and he was a smart guy, and he was following what was happening. And he, like I said, he was exempt because he was part of the war f- and a very important part. He resigned his position at the factory, enlisted to go and join, had a baby, my aunt, Patricia, who was probably around one or two years old, married, and he enlisted to go and fight in the war, knowing full well that there was a very significant chance that he wouldn't come back. Yet, he risked his life because he knew that there was something more important. And whilst it's we focus on the bad, there's also incredible people, like everyday people, like from that generation-

Francis Foster 1:06:33 ... who just went, "No, this is wrong."

Joe Rogan 1:06:36 Yeah.

Francis Foster 1:06:36 "And I need to stand up and I need to do something. And there is something greater than me." So there is that aspect of humanity as well.

Joe Rogan 1:06:45 That does exist, but I think people were more resilient then because life was more difficult.

Francis Foster 1:06:49 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:06:49 Yeah. I think it's, it's great that we've managed to make, uh, starvation, uh, like the, um, one of the least of our concerns in this country at this point in time.

Francis Foster 1:06:59 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:06:59 You know? But along the way, I think we've made it so easy to survive for so many people-

Francis Foster 1:07:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:07:07 ... that we've got kind of lost resolve. And it, it must've been horrible to live back then, to live during the time of World War I.

Francis Foster 1:07:15 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:07:15 I mean, imagine how hard life was back then.

Francis Foster 1:07:17 (exhales sharply)

Joe Rogan 1:07:17 Life was fucking hard. But those are the type of people that you need if you're gonna have a war. And we don't have that many of those now. Not, not like the... That was probably like... You, you've seen those videos. Uh, uh, I don't know if you have, but, like, there's, uh, physical fitness, um, classes in the 1960s in America and they, they all look like little athletes.

Francis Foster 1:07:41 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:07:41 They're all doing monkey bars and shit. Like, everybody can... Everybody's working out. They all look fit. If you, you try to have a video like that today, you'd have some blue-haired slobs-

Francis Foster 1:07:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:07:50 ... falling down and breaking their arms, you know? Like, how many people are resilient today? It's less. Y- there's a lot more people, but the percentage of resilient people is less.

Konstantin Kisin 1:08:01 Well, Jamie, you might be able to look this up. I think there was a, uh, an article recently about the fact that the US Army is having trouble recruiting people 'cause they're just not physically capable. There's, th- th- they're struggling.

Joe Rogan 1:08:11 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 1:08:11 You know? And, uh, that wouldn't be, just be the US. It would be a lot of places.

Joe Rogan 1:08:14 Also, the army's kind of gone woke.

Konstantin Kisin 1:08:16 Oh, man.

Francis Foster 1:08:17 Oh, man. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:18 (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 1:08:18 And this is, this is the thing we've been talking about, right, man?

Joe Rogan 1:08:21 (laughs)

Francis Foster 1:08:21 (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 1:08:21 It's like-

Joe Rogan 1:08:22 Inclusion is really important when you're killing folks.

Konstantin Kisin 1:08:22 Can we just focus on what fucking works?

Francis Foster 1:08:25 (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 1:08:25 Can we focus on what works?

Joe Rogan 1:08:27 Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 1:08:27 Right?

Joe Rogan 1:08:27 Right, exactly.

Konstantin Kisin 1:08:27 I want the army to be good at killing the enemy. I don't give a fuck about-

Joe Rogan 1:08:30 Right.

Konstantin Kisin 1:08:30 ... how diverse they are.

Joe Rogan 1:08:31 Right. Imagine if the UFC had to have diversity.

Konstantin Kisin 1:08:34 (laughs)

Francis Foster 1:08:34 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:35 Do you know what a problem that would be?

Francis Foster 1:08:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:36 If we had like... to have a certain amount of trans folks or certain amount of, um-

Konstantin Kisin 1:08:41 Well, you'd work well-

Francis Foster 1:08:42 Yeah. (laughs)

Konstantin Kisin 1:08:42 ... in the women's division. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:43 If you only had... Like, if you... Like, if you had numbers you had to achieve. It wouldn't... Wasn't the best fighters.

Francis Foster 1:08:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:49 It was just, you know, like who meets certain criteria. There's gonna be a bunch of people who get murdered.

Francis Foster 1:08:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:54 'Cause they're getting... They're gonna get thrown in with the real ones. There's gonna be a certain percentage of people that are just there because they're awesome and a certain percentage of people that they have to hire in order to meet these DEI standards.

Francis Foster 1:09:04 Joe, I'm gonna... Jamie-

Joe Rogan 1:09:05 (laughs)

Francis Foster 1:09:05 ... can I ask a favor, man? Would you mind bringing up, uh, RAF Diversity UK?

Joe Rogan 1:09:11 Mm.

Francis Foster 1:09:11 You're gonna-

Konstantin Kisin 1:09:11 It's a beautiful story.

Francis Foster 1:09:12 This is a beautiful story.

Joe Rogan 1:09:14 What happened?

Francis Foster 1:09:15 Uh, yeah-

Joe Rogan 1:09:16 (laughs)

Francis Foster 1:09:16 (laughs) Mate, this is-

Konstantin Kisin 1:09:17 Uh, just look up for male, uh, white... Useless male white pilots.

Francis Foster 1:09:21 Yeah. Yeah.

Konstantin Kisin 1:09:21 Look that one up.

Joe Rogan 1:09:22 Useless male white pilots?

Francis Foster 1:09:24 Male white pilots.

Konstantin Kisin 1:09:24 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:24 Is, is that a quote?

Francis Foster 1:09:25 Yeah, it was a quote.

Konstantin Kisin 1:09:26 Yeah. From their re- from their report. They were, they were like, "You know what? We're not hiring any more, uh, white men to fly planes."

Joe Rogan 1:09:31 What a good idea.

Francis Foster 1:09:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:32 Yeah. Definitely don't hire the people that are the best at it.

Francis Foster 1:09:35 No. Why would you?

Joe Rogan 1:09:35 Whether they're white or Black or Asian.

Francis Foster 1:09:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:37 No. Just don't hire white ones. "Royal Air Force unlawfully discriminated against white male recruits in bid to boost diversity." Dude, you want the best.

Francis Foster 1:09:46 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:09:46 Whoever the fuck they are, whether they are... They're white or South American or Indian or... You want the best.

Konstantin Kisin 1:09:52 Who cares?

Joe Rogan 1:09:52 That's... Oh, no one cares. You want people who fly the planes the best.

Francis Foster 1:09:56 Mm-hmm. Right?

Joe Rogan 1:09:56 Only the best.

Francis Foster 1:09:58 That's true.

Konstantin Kisin 1:09:58 And this is, like, controversial now.

Joe Rogan 1:10:00 It's a war plane.

Francis Foster 1:10:01 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:02 Could you imagine? Imagine if, like... Again, it goes back to the MMA fighters. Imagine if, like, you know, like, the UK had one representative that was supposed to be fighting Francis Ngannou.

Francis Foster 1:10:12 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:10:13 You know? You know what I'm saying? Like-

Konstantin Kisin 1:10:14 Don't pick me. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:10:14 Every... (laughs) Do you know you have a... You have a... You have one person who's supposed to step up and fight that guy.

Francis Foster 1:10:20 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:10:20 And, uh, well, it says y- the right move is to, you know, send in a non-binary woman.

Francis Foster 1:10:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:26 'Cause they don't get represented in, in the UFC. Like, "Okay. What-"

Francis Foster 1:10:30 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:10:30 "... the fuck are you talking about? This is... She's representing the UK. We need someone who could beat him."