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Joe Rogan Experience #2047 - Brian Muraresku

Brian C. Muraresku is the author of "The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name," now available in a paperback edition featuring new bonus materials.https://www.brianmuraresku.com

Joe RoganhostBrian C. MurareskuguestGuest (Brian C. Muraresku side-conversation)guest
Jun 27, 20243h 47mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 15:00

    (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast,…

    1. JR

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

    2. NA

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

    3. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music)

    4. BM

      All right, we're up. 'Sup, Joe Rogan?

    5. JR

      What's up, man?

    6. BM

      How are you? What's heh. up? Last time I saw you, we were on another continent.

    7. JR

      Uh, the European continent.

    8. BM

      Yeah.

    9. JR

      Yeah.

    10. BM

      It was fun. That was exciting. Thank you very much for that. It was-

    11. JR

      You're welcome.

    12. BM

      ... going to visit the, the Greek ruins with you was really special. That was very cool.

    13. JR

      That was, uh, was that your first time seeing, like, the Acropolis-

    14. BM

      Yeah.

    15. JR

      ... in the downtown?

    16. BM

      It was my first time in Greece.

    17. JR

      Yeah.

    18. BM

      Yeah.

    19. JR

      Really?

    20. BM

      Mm-hmm.

    21. JR

      And the girls too?

    22. BM

      Mm-mmm. My wife had been, but-

    23. JR

      Yeah, that's right.

    24. BM

      ... the, the girls hadn't been. It was exciting. It was fun, man. J- j- it's so crazy just to be there in that place where all this started, is, j- just to be on, in that, on that soil, standing there, in the, the place where those people were 2,500 years ago-

    25. JR

      Mm.

    26. BM

      ... was very special.

    27. JR

      Or longer.

    28. BM

      Or longer, yeah.

    29. JR

      Yeah, by thousands of years, potentially.

    30. BM

      Yeah.

  2. 15:00 – 30:00

    Right. …

    1. JR

      and all of a sudden, you think you're all-knowing-

    2. BM

      Right.

    3. JR

      ... and maybe all-powerful.

    4. BM

      Well, also, you sort of espouse that to others who haven't experienced it.

    5. JR

      Hm.

    6. BM

      And e- there's like the guru thing that happens-

    7. JR

      Hm.

    8. BM

      ... which I think is really problematic for Western people.

    9. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    10. BM

      For whatever reason, there's a lot of, especially men in Western culture that get involved in those things, and then they become leaders.

    11. JR

      Yeah.

    12. BM

      And they're semi-cult leaders, you know?

    13. JR

      Yeah, yeah. Someone sent me an article yesterday about this. It has an interesting title, Chasing the Numinous: Hungry Ghosts in the Shadow of the Psychedelic Renaissance, uh, just came out in this- in this journal, Chasing the Numinous. And- and it hel- talked, this notion of the hungry ghosts is, um, it's preta in Sanskrit. Speaking of- of more Sanskrit, so preta are these- these hungry ghosts who are constantly hungry, constantly thirsty, and no matter how much they feed or try and satiate themselves, it's never enough.

    14. BM

      Hm.

    15. JR

      And so it's sort of this- this metaphor for, uh, the Western mind and consumerism and extraction. And, you know, wouldn't it be a shame if we approached psychedelics, yoga, all these spiritual disciplines, with- with that sort of, that broken Western mentality, trying to figure out what this can do for me?

    16. BM

      Yeah, that's what it is. What can this do for me? Um, most psychedelic experiences that I've ever had, o- one of the key sort of overwhelming aspects of it is to get out of your own way.

    17. JR

      Hm.

    18. BM

      And that you're in your own way, and that you thinking about yourself, and you think of yourself, and it- it's just wasted energy.

    19. JR

      Hm.

    20. BM

      Wasted. And that instead, you should be thinking about, like, the things you're doing and how you're interacting with the world. And also, your ego is just bullshit.

    21. JR

      (laughs)

    22. BM

      It's just- it's just-

    23. JR

      (laughs)

    24. BM

      It's- it's just some leftover chimp shit-

    25. JR

      (laughs)

    26. BM

      ... that's designed to keep us alive.

    27. JR

      (laughs)

    28. BM

      It's designed to make sure that you procreate, made to make sure that you think very highly of yourself.

    29. JR

      Uh-huh.

    30. BM

      So you want to procreate.

  3. 30:00 – 45:00

    Mm-hmm. …

    1. JR

      335,000 years old. Um, that's what I wanted to show you. Um, this is, this is where it was discovered. So, you see the Rising Star cave system there in South Africa. Um, it was found in this, in this cavernous, underground labyrinth of networks, uh, where, uh, Lee found, uh, a number of different bodies that had been, uh, apparently left there by this species, Homo naledi. Um, and the reason that's interesting is because, again, hu- ... Homo sapiens, to our knowledge, are the only species to have ever intentionally buried their dead. So, you see things like ... Uh, you see grief and mourning practices in the animal ... We talked about the animal world. Like, when they, when they just die, they're, they're left to rot typically. Although, you see, you see mourning practices in, in cetaceans and you see it in elephants and maybe chimpanzees, but no one buries their dead. So, that was the big bright line.... uh, that no species had ever crossed, seemingly, aside from homo sapiens. Although there's also evidence for, uh, for Neanderthal burial, which is, goes back, uh, uh, potentially a very long time, like over 400,000 years. There's a site in Spain called Sima de los Huesos. Um, but Neanderthal is very close to us as well. You know, we have Neanderthal DNA, like, in our own genetic makeup. They're kind of cousins. Uh, so that, that wasn't really too shocking, the fact that there could be Neanderthal burial. But the fact that something that looks like that and is potentially, um, you know, at least 300,000 years ago, but morphologically it's archaic. Kind of like we're talking about erectus.

    2. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JR

      Like it's, it's really archaic-looking, Homo naledi.

    4. GS

      Yeah.

    5. JR

      It's, it's short. It's about 4'8 to 5'2. It's slender and skinny. Um, but it, there are features on it that look, aga- like archaic. Like, it could be at least a million years old, for example, or, or longer.

    6. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JR

      So it's strange that a being that archaic finds its way into this, into this cave system and, and deliberately deposits the dead. So that was, like, a very controversial idea. It was so controversial that, like, Lee didn't know what the, what the bones were doing there, uh, 'cause it just didn't make sense. And by the way, like, it's, it's become the richest site for hominin discovery on, on the continent and maybe, maybe anywhere because of, because of the profusion of bones that they've ... They found, like, 1,500 different bones. I think it's close to 2,000 now, which is really, really strange in paleoanthropology. So Lee was digging another site called Gladysvale, not too far from this, for years, years. And typically what you find are animals. You find tens or hundreds of thousands of animal bone fragments and a very small percentage of, of hominins. So for example, at that site in Gladysvale, he found a tooth and a pinky bone over the course of, like, many, many years.

    8. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    9. JR

      Which is not unusual. He comes to this Rising Star cave system, and all of a sudden there's 1,500 bone fragments. They're able to assemble what they think is, like, f- uh, 15 different individuals.

    10. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    11. JR

      So 15 individual specific Homo naledi are being deposited in that Dinaledi Chamber, and they don't know why. Uh, and so they begin to, to look more into it. And I'm gonna show you how, how difficult it is to get in there, by the way-

    12. GS

      Okay.

    13. JR

      ... and why it was so difficult to, to believe at first. If you look at the, the cave chamber there, um ... It was just up, uh, up there before. It's, um, on the next one maybe. Yeah. It's re- it's really hard to access that. You can see, um ... So you enter at the top there.

    14. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    15. JR

      And th- this is what Homo naledi was doing potentially 300,000 years ago. They found this cave system. They would descend there on the left, go down into what's called Superman's Crawl, which is just 10 inches high, so they had to go on their bellies potentially.

    16. GS

      And so they think they dragged the bodies through that Superman's Crawl?

    17. JR

      They dragged the dead bodies through the-

    18. GS

      That Superman's Crawl's only 10 inches high, and you could drag a body through that?

    19. JR

      They ... It's, it gets, it gets worse. So they not only drug it through that crawl there, they went up Dragon's Back, as you can see there, and then down what's called The Chute. You see the ar- the yellow arrow at The Chute?

    20. GS

      Yeah.

    21. JR

      So The Chute goes from the top of Dragon's Back into the Dinaledi Chamber. The Chute is, like, seven or eight inches wide, seven or eight inches, and it goes down, like, 40 feet from the top of Dragon's Back to Dinaledi. And inside Dinaledi is where they found f- at least 15 bodies.

    22. GS

      How did they get a body through seven inches?

    23. JR

      Uh, yeah. It's, I mean, we, we can go there too. Like, it's, uh ...

    24. GS

      Really?

    25. JR

      So, so Lee, um, avoided it for many years. He was able to actually make it down himself. There's a great documen- you gotta see the documentary. It's on Netflix. It's called Cave of Bones. If you look up, look up unknown.

    26. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    27. JR

      Unknown:Cave of Bones, you'll find, uh, an awesome documentary that, that charts the discovery and what they call the underground astronauts who managed to, to get their way through Superman's Crawl and Dragon's Back, and actually managed, managed to get into the Dinaledi Chamber. It's like, it's, it's, it's so captivating how they discovered, uh, and then rooted through the- the, these bones. And so, okay, there's a bunch of bones in there.

    28. GS

      Right.

    29. JR

      And it's, it's so strange that it doesn't make sense at first. So the, like, the, the working hypotheses are that it was some kind of accident or it was animal predation. Okay, animals killed these Homo naledi and, and animals drug them through that, that, that-

    30. GS

      Mm-hmm.

  4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

    (laughs) …

    1. BM

      just close enough. See, the cat's like, "Get the fuck out of here, man." Like, he's, he's fucking with him, and every time the cat tries to move on him, he flies away, and then the cat just jumps on that other fucking cat-

    2. JR

      (laughs)

    3. BM

      ... and they start duking it out. Like, look, and he's, like, sitting right next to it. They fall off the roof and the crow flies down with him. He's like, "Yeah, get him. Get him."

    4. JR

      He's still going.

    5. BM

      It's fun for him. He's having a good time. Like, there's no evolutionary advantage to doing that.

    6. JR

      That's, that's blood sport.

    7. BM

      Look, and then they fall down, that, that little... Boom. (laughs)

    8. JR

      (laughs)

    9. BM

      These cats are just going to war.

    10. JR

      (laughs)

    11. BM

      And that, that crow's like, "Yeah, get him."

    12. JR

      (laughs)

    13. BM

      "Kick his ass." Weird. They're very, very, very smart. They, they've done all these studies where they show that, um, if you give a crow a s-... A one-size tool, it will use that tool to extract a larger tool.

    14. JR

      Hmm.

    15. BM

      And it'll use that tool to get the food.

    16. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    17. BM

      Like, they've done all these, like, weird little mazes and had crows solve them.

    18. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    19. BM

      They're very clever.

    20. JR

      Hmm.

    21. BM

      They're sneaky little fuckers, tiny little brains.

    22. JR

      So, we're not exceptional?

    23. BM

      Well, how about octopi? Octopuses are very smart, and what the fuck are they? You know, they, they found that there's a, a poisonous jellyfish that, uh, it's a, it's a very toxic jellyfish, but even though it doesn't have a brain, it has the ability to learn. That's something they just recently discovered.

    24. JR

      Hmm.

    25. BM

      See if you can find that. It's pretty interesting. It's, like, a, some just fucking weird-ass jellyfish that it stings you, you're fucked, but this thing has the ability to learn, which is very surprising. Like, it doesn't even have a brain.

    26. JR

      (laughs)

    27. BM

      Like, what... Okay, so, all right. What's learning then?

    28. JR

      Huh.

    29. BM

      Like, where, where is memory st-... Is... Are we wrong about where memories are stored? Scientists provide evidence that tiny Caribbean box jellyfish with lack... which lack a central nervous system-

    30. JR

      Geez.

  5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

    Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, the…

    1. JR

      That, that's why I think that the thing that makes us human is the way that we engage with those invisible forces.

    2. BM

      Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, the way we engage-

    3. JR

      (clears throat)

    4. BM

      ... with those invisible forces. Yeah, that... I mean, that's what's... It's unique about humans, for sure, on Earth.

    5. JR

      Jamie, do you have that quote from, from John?

    6. GS

      Yeah, but I mean-

    7. BM

      What is the quote?

    8. GS

      It's him saying... Like, it's a video. I don't know if you want to read it or play it or what?

    9. BM

      No, you can play it.

    10. JR

      Yeah.

    11. GS

      Okay.

    12. NA

      ... is, uh, expressing itself through our existence. I don't believe that a musical idea starts in your brain. I believe it starts at a place before that that we don't have any direct contact with. And I believe that everything that we do, everything that we create is nature expressing itself the same way that when a flower grows out of the ground or a tree grows out of the ground, it's nature expressing itself. And you might say that the tree is expressing itself by the way its branches move out, but it's the force that drives nature. The tree is the visible thing that appears to our senses, but I don't at all believe it's the source of why everything is perpetuated all the time, you know? The force that created us.

    13. BM

      Hmm. That makes sense.

    14. JR

      Hmm.

    15. BM

      Yeah. Well, most comedians will tell you that jokes come to them like, like a gift. Like, your, your mind just like, a door opens up, and like, "Here it is."... and you're like, "Oh, wow. Oh my God, what a great idea." Like, these ideas just pop into your head. You see... and sometimes you see things and you describe them and you're like, "Mm-hmm," and you, y- y- the idea will come from that. But sometimes ideas just come to you. They don't ev- You know what I mean? They don't even feel like... You don't feel responsible for them because it's not like you dug a hole. Like, "This is the hole I dug." You do write. You sit down and write, right?

    16. JR

      Yeah.

    17. BM

      Y- you do p- The physical act of summoning the muse, which is how Pressfield talks about it in The War of Art, which is a great way to s- Because it is that. Whether or not the muse is real-

    18. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    19. BM

      ... if you treat it as if it's real, it will show up.

    20. JR

      Hmm.

    21. BM

      Like, if you show up every day and you write, you say, "I'm... From 9:00 AM to noon every day, I sit in front of my computer and I write," if you do that, the ideas will come. They will come to you.

    22. JR

      That's crazy.

    23. BM

      Well, where are they coming from? Where is that... Y- y- yeah, what is that thing?

    24. JR

      Do you think AI can figure that out? I do- I don't think... I- I'm not sure if we can figure that out.

    25. BM

      I don't know. That's a good question. It's a good question. Like, what is the unique inspiration for ideas and our desire to pursue them? Like, what, what is it... I think that's part of what makes us innovate, and that's part of, like, what... You know, if you were looking at us from afar-

    26. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    27. BM

      ... and you go, "What is this species doing?" It's making things. And how do you make things without creativity? You don't. You, you wouldn't.

    28. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    29. BM

      You would have no desire to. So this is the question about AI, it's like, can you program that desire to innovate into a thing without all of the primate characteristics that we possess?

    30. JR

      We seem to have this innate ability do it in a way that we know will resonate with people. Have you ever-

  6. 1:15:00 – 1:16:30

    Hmm. …

    1. BM

      me. And I'm like, "Why is there a deer there?" And then I close the door, "Girls, girls, girls, come here. Check this out." And then I look at the way he's standing and go, "Ooh, his back leg's broken."

    2. GS

      Hmm.

    3. BM

      He's got a, His shin is fractured. His back, like where your, your shin would be?

    4. GS

      Hmm.

    5. BM

      It's bending back the wrong way.

    6. GS

      (laughs)

    7. BM

      It's, it's broken. And so w- We called Animal Protection and they didn't know what to do and so we're, we're literally trying to find him an animal veterinarian to fix this deer's leg. Which is just so crazy, 'cause I shoot deers and I eat 'em.

    8. GS

      (laughs) But-

    9. BM

      (laughs)

    10. GS

      But you feel bad for this one?

    11. BM

      For that one, I was like, he's, first, 'cause he's very young, I would never shoot him. He's a little young fella. He's just, it looks like a yearling, like he's just got his horns for the first time.

    12. GS

      Hmm.

    13. BM

      And he's like really confused and he's hurt and he can't ... And he's in my yard because I guess he's, like, safer there? And so the dog finally does find him and when the dog finds him, he's, he's like kinda jumping around him and bouncing and like, "You wanna play?" Like w- And the deer can't run, so he's just standing there going, "Hey, man, are you gonna eat me?" Like, "What's going on here?" And it was, it was very interesting. But he know, like my dog, he can say, "Come on, man. Cut the shit. Get inside."

    14. GS

      Hmm.

    15. BM

      And he goes inside.

    16. GS

      Hmm.

    17. BM

      Or I can say, "Don't go out this door. We're gonna go to the other door." "Oh, okay." He just goes to the other door. Like, I can say things like that, like he knows. Like I say, "Not that door, dude. The other one." And he'll start going towards the other door. It's very weird. Like I say, "You wanna watch TV?" And he goes into the TV room. And like, he waits for me to plop up on the couch, then he hops up next to me, like he, he speaks English, or he knows English, he just can't talk.

Episode duration: 3:47:07

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