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Joe Rogan Experience #2047 - Brian Muraresku

Brian C. Muraresku is the author of "The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name," now available in a paperback edition featuring new bonus materials.https://www.brianmuraresku.com

Joe RoganhostBrian C. MurareskuguestGuest (Brian C. Muraresku side-conversation)guest
Jun 27, 20243h 47mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:13

    Return from Greece: visiting ruins and why the psychedelic-Eleusis idea is still debated

    1. JR

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

    2. NA

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

    3. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music)

    4. BM

      All right, we're up. 'Sup, Joe Rogan?

    5. JR

      What's up, man?

    6. BM

      How are you? What's heh. up? Last time I saw you, we were on another continent.

    7. JR

      Uh, the European continent.

    8. BM

      Yeah.

    9. JR

      Yeah.

    10. BM

      It was fun. That was exciting. Thank you very much for that. It was-

    11. JR

      You're welcome.

    12. BM

      ... going to visit the, the Greek ruins with you was really special. That was very cool.

    13. JR

      That was, uh, was that your first time seeing, like, the Acropolis-

    14. BM

      Yeah.

    15. JR

      ... in the downtown?

    16. BM

      It was my first time in Greece.

    17. JR

      Yeah.

    18. BM

      Yeah.

    19. JR

      Really?

    20. BM

      Mm-hmm.

    21. JR

      And the girls too?

    22. BM

      Mm-mmm. My wife had been, but-

    23. JR

      Yeah, that's right.

    24. BM

      ... the, the girls hadn't been. It was exciting. It was fun, man. J- j- it's so crazy just to be there in that place where all this started, is, j- just to be on, in that, on that soil, standing there, in the, the place where those people were 2,500 years ago-

    25. JR

      Mm.

    26. BM

      ... was very special.

    27. JR

      Or longer.

    28. BM

      Or longer, yeah.

    29. JR

      Yeah, by thousands of years, potentially.

    30. BM

      Yeah.

  2. 2:13 – 3:49

    Eleusis conference recap: Spanish ritual vessels, ergot evidence, and an archaeologist’s skepticism

    1. JR

      The fact that there, there were no vessels found in Greece, in mainland Greece, and most especially by the, at the sanctuary in Eleusis, I think that that leaves healthy room for debate.

    2. BM

      Mm.

    3. JR

      I was there, like, I was there the week before last at this, at the conference I was preparing-

    4. BM

      Mm-hmm.

    5. JR

      ... back in July. So we finally had the, the conference at Eleusis because of all the cities in Europe, it was nominated to be the, the European Capital of Culture for 2023. So it was postponed from '21 'cause of the pandemic, and people finally came through town, uh, a couple weeks ago. And, uh, the site archeologist, her name's Poppy Papangeli, who was on site when I first, uh, was interviewing her for, for the book back in 2018. I got to see her again for the first time in five years. And she's probably spent more time at Eleusis than any human being, living or dead.

    6. BM

      Wow.

    7. JR

      Because she spent like 40 years basically maintaining the site. And so she used to commute from Athens, from her home, to Eleusis every day for like close to 40 years.

    8. BM

      Wow.

    9. JR

      So she's done that pilgrimage more than any person living or dead throughout recorded history.

    10. BM

      Wow.

    11. JR

      And (laughs) when, when she finally saw the, the evidence ... So I, so I gave like a PowerPoint of the things that I talked about here a couple years ago, all the evidence from the book about the, these ritual vessels that were discovered in the 1990s in Spain, and they show pretty clear evidence of, of ergot inside like a tiny beer chalice. So something like an ergotized beer, which was the thing that was hypothesized back in the 1970s as the elusive, you know, mystery to the, to these great mysteries. And so I showed her all the evidence, did my PowerPoint, and Poppy was thoroughly unconvinced-

    12. BM

      Hmm.

    13. JR

      ... that psychedelics had anything to do with the mysteries in Eleusis.

  3. 3:49 – 8:28

    Alternative explanations: pilgrimage, fasting, and endogenous ecstasy vs. a “secret recipe”

    1. BM

      Interesting. What's her theory?

    2. JR

      Her theory is that, uh, it's a modern interpolation that we think that we can't achieve these, these states of mind in the absence of drugs. And so when I do ask her, she talks about the long pilgrimage, uh, and she talks about, uh, the fasting that would have taken place, and she talks about like the emotional preparation for years in advance of this sort of culminating experience of a lifetime. So she points to all kinds of different things, maybe some like endogenous, endogenously produced ecstatic experience, but she's just not a fan of the drug hypothesis. And so the fact that, uh, you know, this forensic evidence for drugs was found in these vessels 2,200 years ago, you know, at the place, at the time, where it looks like there's a connection to ancient Eleusis, she's unpersuaded, which I think is very funny and, and super cool because I think, I think debate is, is, is needed.

    3. BM

      Well, it's always good to be healthy, you know, in your skepticism.

    4. JR

      (laughs)

    5. BM

      But at a certain point in time, you gotta go, "What do you think is going on?" Like, what do you, what does she think? Why, why ... The evidence that connects it to the vessels that, uh, were in Spain, does she think that has no connection?

    6. JR

      I-

    7. BM

      It seems like they're the same people or at least from the same teachings?

    8. JR

      I asked her that. Yes. She, she believes there was a Greek influence. So we know that the, the place where this, uh, these vessels were found 2,200 years ago, uh, we know that it was, uh, there was a Greek colony called Emporion. And so we know that there were ancient Greeks who founded a colony not too far from this place, and the place we're talking about is Pontos. So it's a town a bit further inland. So it's undeniable that ancient Greeks were at this ancient colony as far back as like 575 BC, by the way. That's when they established the colony. And so you have like 400 years from the establishment of this colony until you see this, like this Hellenistic period, where people who were influenced by the Greeks were then reinterpreting what seems to be their idea of the mysteries in honor of Demeter and Persephone, the, the two goddesses who were worshiped back in Greece at Eleusis. So, um, it ... That all, that all lines up. And you see, you know, images of what could be like an incense burner that looks like Demeter and Persephone, and you find these vases that look like they belong in Athens showing Dionysus and this drunken parade. And you see what the, the most interesting to me was the, this kalathos that shows Triptolemos. And Triptolemos was kind of like the missionary of the ancient mysteries, and you see images of him in the museum at Eleusis, and they found a near identical image of him in, at this, uh, at the, not too far from this site in Spain. So like all the pieces kind of fit together, but I think that ...... you know, I can't speak for Poppy, but maybe she sees it as sort of like, like a renegade group. You know, something that-

    9. BM

      Hmm.

    10. JR

      ... that was, because, you know, again, to celebrate the mysteries outside the temple, outside Demeter's temple at Eleusis was a sacrilege. We have to keep that in mind. It doesn't mean that people weren't trying t-to recreate what was happening there, and there's this famous incident in Athens in 414 BC called the profanation of the mysteries, where we know that some people, at least, were trying to recreate what they thought was happening in the temple at home, in private dining rooms. So, if that was happening, and the mystery was spilling out of this temple, it stands to reason that something was happening in Spain, maybe in Southern Italy. I spent a lot of time looking there too, uh, or maybe across North Africa or the Near East. So, like, I think it's very possible. I th- I think, I think what she's looking for is evidence in Greece, at Eleusis or thereabouts, which is why I've been spending so much time there over the past couple years.

    11. BM

      Well, it seems like even today, rituals and, y- you know, these psychedelic ceremonies that people do in other countries when they go to the jungle, there's so much fanfare, and r- there's so much behind it. There's so much ... There's a lot of secrets.

    12. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    13. BM

      Like people contain these secrets. They talk about these things that they're about to embark on, and they're, they're in control of this experience for these people. Like they're, they're not gonna tell you the exact recipe, how they do it. You know, most of 'em kind of keep that secret. They, they brew it. They bring it to you. There's always been, like, someone who holds, like, secret information.

    14. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    15. BM

      And it, it kind of makes sense, and then th- you see the exact same thing in America. You see these little psychedelic ceremonies that people do outside of the jungle, you know, and they've brought ayahuasca back, and now th- they're, they get a group of people together in the living room, and they burn candles-

    16. JR

      Hmm.

    17. BM

      ... and trip balls together.

    18. JR

      (laughs)

    19. BM

      You know?

    20. JR

      That sounds fun.

    21. BM

      But it seems very similar to that-

    22. JR

      Yeah.

    23. BM

      ... kind of thing, where they would try to reenact it or recreate it somewhere else.

  4. 8:28 – 10:34

    Mysteries beyond temples: Dionysus, private rites, and why Spain could mirror Eleusis

    1. JR

      Yeah, I mean, even in the classical period, like, so we, we think Eleusis goes back to, sort of like the Acropolis, right? So when you're looking at th- at these sites, you're, you're looking at, uh, different moments in time. So you can't look at the Acropolis and not think about the Mycenaean period. That goes back to, like, 1500 BC, and you can't think about, like, the classical golden age of Athens in the fifth century BC. And you can't think about what happened to it thereafter because, y- the power changes hands, right? To the, to the Romans-

    2. BM

      Yeah.

    3. JR

      ... uh, in 146 BC, and then, you know, it goes into the Byzantine Empire in the fifth century AD. And then it goes to the Ottomans after that. So, like, there's always been this transfer of power, and these sites experience different levels of, uh, of participation and ritual and mystery. So when you look at Eleusis, you know, as, as old as it could be, um, going back, you know, probably to 1500 BC, in the classical period, it was always changing. So when you talk about secrets, you talk about potions and sacraments, I think they were always, always changing throughout time. And so maybe the secret recipe in the fifth century BC was different from what it looked like a thousand years before that and a thousand years since. And so what we do know is that Dionysus, who's this other god of ritual madness and ecstasy in the theater ... Remember we went to the theater-

    4. BM

      Mm-hmm.

    5. JR

      ... of Dionysus? You know, he, he sneaks into the mysteries at some point, and I think what you begin to see is this, like, this urge towards, uh, what some scholars call private spontaneous pagan piety.

    6. BM

      Hmm.

    7. JR

      Which means that aside from these, these, these centralized temples, like the Temple of Demeter, it sits at Eleusis, and that's where these rites happen, and it's an utter profanation to celebrate them outside. What you see with Dionysus coming into these mysteries is this urge towards the celebration of ritual and ceremony outside the temples, privately and spontaneously. So, like, the, the churches, the temples of Dionysus were sort of outside. They were always celebrated in the forests, in the mountains, and at the southern slope of the Acropolis, which is interesting, and urban centers too. But I think over time, you begin to see, like, this thirst to celebrate these mysteries outside the temples, which is why the evidence in Spain makes so much sense to me.

  5. 10:34 – 15:27

    Kundalini yoga, siddhis, and the spiritual trap: ego inflation in altered states

    1. BM

      Hmm. W- when it comes to endogenously created, um, experiences, have you ever looked into what people experience doing Kundalini yoga?

    2. JR

      Hmm. Yeah.

    3. BM

      Have you?

    4. JR

      That's, it's, uh, that's pretty interesting. I practiced yoga-

    5. BM

      Yeah?

    6. JR

      ... for a little time. Well, I studied Sanskrit.

    7. BM

      Oh, really?

    8. JR

      (laughs)

    9. BM

      Wow.

    10. JR

      I studied Sanskrit.

    11. BM

      So you can read that stuff?

    12. JR

      Yeah. Yeah.

    13. BM

      Have you seen that new AI that's, um, it's, it's translating cuneiform?

    14. JR

      Yeah. Yeah.

    15. BM

      Isn't that amazing?

    16. JR

      I saw a story about that earlier this year.

    17. BM

      Isn't that amazing?

    18. JR

      Yeah. We're getting smarter. Yeah.

    19. BM

      That's ... Well, not us.

    20. JR

      (laughs)

    21. BM

      Our (laughs) our successors.

    22. JR

      (laughs)

    23. BM

      (laughs)

    24. JR

      Maybe they'll crack the code.

    25. BM

      Oh, they'll definitely crack the code.

    26. JR

      (laughs)

    27. BM

      I'm sure it'll be easy for them.

    28. JR

      Uh, probably.

    29. BM

      I mean, if we didn't have the Rosetta Stone, how much would we know about hieroglyphs and ancient Egyptian writing?

    30. JR

      Very little, and that was relatively recently-

  6. 15:27 – 18:21

    Hungry ghosts, consumer spirituality, and psychedelics as another extraction industry

    1. JR

      Yeah, yeah. Someone sent me an article yesterday about this. It has an interesting title, Chasing the Numinous: Hungry Ghosts in the Shadow of the Psychedelic Renaissance, uh, just came out in this- in this journal, Chasing the Numinous. And- and it hel- talked, this notion of the hungry ghosts is, um, it's preta in Sanskrit. Speaking of- of more Sanskrit, so preta are these- these hungry ghosts who are constantly hungry, constantly thirsty, and no matter how much they feed or try and satiate themselves, it's never enough.

    2. BM

      Hm.

    3. JR

      And so it's sort of this- this metaphor for, uh, the Western mind and consumerism and extraction. And, you know, wouldn't it be a shame if we approached psychedelics, yoga, all these spiritual disciplines, with- with that sort of, that broken Western mentality, trying to figure out what this can do for me?

    4. BM

      Yeah, that's what it is. What can this do for me? Um, most psychedelic experiences that I've ever had, o- one of the key sort of overwhelming aspects of it is to get out of your own way.

    5. JR

      Hm.

    6. BM

      And that you're in your own way, and that you thinking about yourself, and you think of yourself, and it- it's just wasted energy.

    7. JR

      Hm.

    8. BM

      Wasted. And that instead, you should be thinking about, like, the things you're doing and how you're interacting with the world. And also, your ego is just bullshit.

    9. JR

      (laughs)

    10. BM

      It's just- it's just-

    11. JR

      (laughs)

    12. BM

      It's- it's just some leftover chimp shit-

    13. JR

      (laughs)

    14. BM

      ... that's designed to keep us alive.

    15. JR

      (laughs)

    16. BM

      It's designed to make sure that you procreate, made to make sure that you think very highly of yourself.

    17. JR

      Uh-huh.

    18. BM

      So you want to procreate.

    19. JR

      But you came to psychedelics later in life, right?

    20. BM

      Yes, yeah.

    21. JR

      Is that, I mean, was that a good thing?

    22. BM

      Yeah, probably, because I made a lot of mistakes.

    23. JR

      Hm.

    24. BM

      And, you know, you learn from that, like, you- you do need mistakes in life.

    25. JR

      Hm.

    26. BM

      And you- you also need to understand what it's like to be very stupid and very foolish-

    27. JR

      Hm.

    28. BM

      ... and young and brash.

    29. JR

      Hm.

    30. BM

      And then also older and more experienced, but still know nothing in terms... I mean, you really, as much as you know, the smartest person alive knows basically nothing about the nature of the universe. Uh, you know, you might know things on a m- molecular level, on a cosmic level, you understand how galaxies are formed. That's cute.

  7. 18:21 – 21:23

    Night skies, light pollution, and the deep roots of religion and storytelling

    1. BM

      It's impossible to even wrap your mind... I mean, back then, they had no real knowledge of the- the scope of it all. But it's pretty obvious that it's insane.... the, I mean, the night skies, I'm sure. Have you seen the night sky in a place where there's absolutely no light?

    2. JR

      You know, sa- yes, but sadly, like, I can count it on, on two hands.

    3. BM

      (clicks tongue) I can only count it on one.

    4. JR

      (laughs) .

    5. BM

      Well, twice. The second time, not as profound. But I went to the, um, the Keck Observatory-

    6. JR

      Hmm.

    7. BM

      ... on the Big Island. And you go, uh, the first time I went, um, it was quite a while ago, and, uh, when we first drove up there, I was really bummed out because it was so cloudy. I was like, "Ah, this sucks. We're not gonna be able to see anything." But then when we went through the clouds to where the observatory is, there's nothing. It's just stars and you get out and you're like, "Oh, my God." It's like being on a spaceship. It's like you're in a convertible spaceship and you're hurling through the galaxy. Because what, what they've done on the Big Island is pretty profound. They, they put these, uh, lights, uh, the, the street lights are, uh, you know, a type of light that doesn't, it doesn't expand outward. What is it called? What are those lights called, Jamie? You're a photographer.

    8. NA

      Um, diffused?

    9. BM

      Yeah, that's right. Thank you. Diffused lighting.

    10. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    11. BM

      So diffused lighting all throughout the Big Island, so it doesn't fuck with the light pollution issue that you get when you're trying to look at the sk- at the real sky.

    12. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    13. BM

      So even though there is light from these, you know, s- streets and all that j- it doesn't affect it.

    14. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    15. BM

      When you're way up there, it's a couple of hours' drive from the shore, and you get up there and it's just... The one time that I went there, and this is, I guess this was about 20 years ago? The one time I went there, it was just like, "Oh, my God." Just, "Oh, my God." Like, you can't believe it. You can't bel- it's so, it's so much, and it really made me sad 'cause I was like, "That's what people used to see every night."

    16. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    17. BM

      That's what people used to see every night before these jackasses invented electricity.

    18. JR

      (laughs) .

    19. BM

      (laughs) .

    20. JR

      Edison.

    21. BM

      You motherfucker. What have you done?

    22. JR

      (laughs) .

    23. BM

      What have you done? We don't think of it as anything like that because we just... L- electricity is amazing. You can go out at night, you can go to dinner, you can fucking drive your T- Tesla. Electricity is amazing, but it, it has made us so ignorant to our place in the cosmos.

    24. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    25. BM

      And it's taken away so much wonder, because when the sky's just totally dark, you look up and you see a star, you know, way over there. Or, "Oh, look, the moon. I could see the moon."

    26. JR

      (laughs) .

    27. BM

      You just get used to it. It's just, you don't see enough. You don't see enough.

    28. JR

      Yeah.

    29. BM

      And then when you actually do, you're like, "Oh, now I know why." Well, you know, why would they... When people are starving to death and just, uh, struggling hun- hunting, hunting and gathering, why would they be concentrating on constellations? Well, of course, they would be.

    30. JR

      'Cause there's nothing to do at night, that's why (laughs) .

  8. 21:23 – 29:03

    Homo erectus and proto-language: firelight without obscuring the cosmos

    1. JR

      Um, and then when you think about what comes before us, I know you think about this a lot, uh-

    2. BM

      Yeah.

    3. JR

      I've been fascinated, uh, with some conversations I've been having with a friend called Lee Berger. He's a Paleo-anthropologist in South Africa. Um, and it got me thinking about all these archaic hominins, and one of them is, is Homo erectus, which I'm li- I don't know why I'm so fascinated by erectus of all the, of all the hominins. But, you know, it goes back at least probably two million years, uh, which is something to think about. Homo habilis comes before erectus. That could be like 2.8 million years. And so erectus probably sheds the body hair of habilis. It's bipedal, obviously, um, and they probably discover fire. Uh, and so what that means... And by the way, they go off and explore the planet, which is crazy for, uh, being that old. I mean, they were potentially the first seafarers.

    4. BM

      Really?

    5. JR

      The first seafaring hominins, uh-

    6. BM

      Do we know what kind of vessels they used?

    7. JR

      No idea. Probably rafts, if Jamie can find it.

    8. BM

      Wow.

    9. JR

      Uh, uh, they were heading... I mean, they, we have erectus remains from Africa to Europe to Asia, uh, so-

    10. BM

      Wow.

    11. JR

      So they, I mean, the, they were, they were on the move, you know, over a million years ago. And the thing about fire, why I mentioned that, the thing about fire is that (smacks lips) if they, whether or not they were cooking their food, they had fire for warmth and light at night, uh, but it didn't obscure the night sky. And so it's interesting to think about whether erectus sat around their campfires a million years ago and told stories, the first stories about the night sky.

    12. BM

      H- they had language?

    13. JR

      We don't know if they had language or not, but there's, they speculate that maybe the beginnings of proto-language-

    14. BM

      Hmm.

    15. JR

      ... would've begun because, I mean, I, I was joking, but, like, what do you do at night?

    16. BM

      Right.

    17. JR

      What do you do at night?

    18. BM

      Right.

    19. JR

      You, you know, which, again, we're so dis- we're not just distracted by light pollution, we're distracted by a million things-

    20. BM

      Mm-hmm.

    21. JR

      ... when the sun sets, um, and that's, again, that's relatively recently. I mean, even in the Middle Ages, there was, there was nothing to do.

    22. BM

      Yeah.

    23. JR

      Um, uh, and so, but think about a million years ago, and so it's possible that around these primordial fires, the very first stories, storytelling would've emerged, uh, around these, around the constellations in the night sky.

    24. BM

      What does Homo erectus look like, Jamie? Did they have a, an artist interpretation?

    25. JR

      That's cool.

    26. BM

      Oh, wow. So very person-like.

    27. NA

      Yeah. This article says that if they sailed, they (clears throat) they probably also had a lingo for it.

    28. BM

      Mm-hmm.

    29. NA

      A sailing lingo-

    30. BM

      Ooh.

  9. 29:03 – 43:52

    Homo naledi revelation: cave ‘burials,’ extreme access routes, fire, and ancient markings

    1. JR

      And how we treat the notion of, uh, of death and burial. Have we talked about Homo naledi before?

    2. BM

      No.

    3. JR

      We need to talk about Homo naledi.

    4. BM

      Okay.

    5. JR

      Uh, Jaime, I brought some, some slides in that. Um, I brought some, some things I wanna show you.

    6. BM

      Okay.

    7. JR

      Um ... (clears throat)

    8. BM

      I'm gonna get a cigar.

    9. JR

      Yeah, go for it.

    10. BM

      'Cause little tiny ones suck.

    11. JR

      This'll be a fun, a fun adventure.

    12. BM

      Okay.

    13. JR

      Do you see where it is? It's at the bu- ... Like, number 16 there.

    14. BM

      Yeah. I got it. Homo naledi.

    15. JR

      Homo naledi.

    16. BM

      That's a cute name. It sounds like a f- a song.

    17. JR

      (laughs)

    18. BM

      Doesn't it? Like it'd have a good beat to it.

    19. JR

      (laughs)

    20. BM

      Um, what y- what year is Homo naledi?

    21. JR

      There, there it is. So, it was discovered by, by Lee in South Africa in the Cradle of Humankind. And this goes back, uh ... Well, he, this ... The discovery was in 2013. The, they think that th- this could be anywhere from 250 to 300,000, 335,000 years old. Um, that's what I wanted to show you. Um, this is, this is where it was discovered. So, you see the Rising Star cave system there in South Africa. Um, it was found in this, in this cavernous, underground labyrinth of networks, uh, where, uh, Lee found, uh, a number of different bodies that had been, uh, apparently left there by this species, Homo naledi. Um, and the reason that's interesting is because, again, hu- ... Homo sapiens, to our knowledge, are the only species to have ever intentionally buried their dead. So, you see things like ... Uh, you see grief and mourning practices in the animal ... We talked about the animal world. Like, when they, when they just die, they're, they're left to rot typically. Although, you see, you see mourning practices in, in cetaceans and you see it in elephants and maybe chimpanzees, but no one buries their dead. So, that was the big bright line.... uh, that no species had ever crossed, seemingly, aside from homo sapiens. Although there's also evidence for, uh, for Neanderthal burial, which is, goes back, uh, uh, potentially a very long time, like over 400,000 years. There's a site in Spain called Sima de los Huesos. Um, but Neanderthal is very close to us as well. You know, we have Neanderthal DNA, like, in our own genetic makeup. They're kind of cousins. Uh, so that, that wasn't really too shocking, the fact that there could be Neanderthal burial. But the fact that something that looks like that and is potentially, um, you know, at least 300,000 years ago, but morphologically it's archaic. Kind of like we're talking about erectus.

    22. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    23. JR

      Like it's, it's really archaic-looking, Homo naledi.

    24. GS

      Yeah.

    25. JR

      It's, it's short. It's about 4'8 to 5'2. It's slender and skinny. Um, but it, there are features on it that look, aga- like archaic. Like, it could be at least a million years old, for example, or, or longer.

    26. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    27. JR

      So it's strange that a being that archaic finds its way into this, into this cave system and, and deliberately deposits the dead. So that was, like, a very controversial idea. It was so controversial that, like, Lee didn't know what the, what the bones were doing there, uh, 'cause it just didn't make sense. And by the way, like, it's, it's become the richest site for hominin discovery on, on the continent and maybe, maybe anywhere because of, because of the profusion of bones that they've ... They found, like, 1,500 different bones. I think it's close to 2,000 now, which is really, really strange in paleoanthropology. So Lee was digging another site called Gladysvale, not too far from this, for years, years. And typically what you find are animals. You find tens or hundreds of thousands of animal bone fragments and a very small percentage of, of hominins. So for example, at that site in Gladysvale, he found a tooth and a pinky bone over the course of, like, many, many years.

    28. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    29. JR

      Which is not unusual. He comes to this Rising Star cave system, and all of a sudden there's 1,500 bone fragments. They're able to assemble what they think is, like, f- uh, 15 different individuals.

    30. GS

      Mm-hmm.

  10. 43:52 – 48:56

    What counts as intelligence? Crows, octopuses, brainless jellyfish, and the mind-as-antenna question

    1. BM

      But is that... Should that st- still be shocking when we know so much about crows?

    2. JR

      Hmm.

    3. BM

      You know, crows are very smart, like clever. They play games. They, they know how to solve puzzles. They know how to drop rocks into a water bottle to raise the level of the water so they can drink it.

    4. JR

      (laughs)

    5. BM

      Th- they do. They use tools to extract food. They, they s-... You ever seen, uh, crows make cats start fights with each other?

    6. JR

      No.

    7. BM

      They do it for sport.

    8. JR

      (laughs)

    9. BM

      Like, one crow will f-... Like, two cats are on rival rooftops-

    10. JR

      (laughs)

    11. BM

      ... and the crow will fly over and just be just close enough to the cat that they can't, can't get 'em, and he kinda fucks with him and irritates him-

    12. JR

      On purpose?

    13. BM

      ... fucks with him, on purpose. And then he flies over to the other cat and kind of fucks with him.

    14. JR

      Ugh.

    15. BM

      And the cat's like, "Get out of here, man."

    16. JR

      (laughs)

    17. BM

      And so they're both like, "Raow!" They're heightened because they're being fucked with by this crow. And then he kind of, like, coaxes these cats into a fight, and then these cats fight and they fall off the roof. Watch this shit.

    18. JR

      (laughs)

    19. BM

      Watch this. Look at this, look at this crow. He's getting close. He's like, "Hey, motherfucker. What's up?"

    20. JR

      (laughs)

    21. BM

      He says, "Hey, bitch, what's up?" He just gets just close enough. See, the cat's like, "Get the fuck out of here, man." Like, he's, he's fucking with him, and every time the cat tries to move on him, he flies away, and then the cat just jumps on that other fucking cat-

    22. JR

      (laughs)

    23. BM

      ... and they start duking it out. Like, look, and he's, like, sitting right next to it. They fall off the roof and the crow flies down with him. He's like, "Yeah, get him. Get him."

    24. JR

      He's still going.

    25. BM

      It's fun for him. He's having a good time. Like, there's no evolutionary advantage to doing that.

    26. JR

      That's, that's blood sport.

    27. BM

      Look, and then they fall down, that, that little... Boom. (laughs)

    28. JR

      (laughs)

    29. BM

      These cats are just going to war.

    30. JR

      (laughs)

  11. 48:56 – 1:06:10

    AI vs ancestral intelligence: mortality, creativity, and where ideas ‘come from’

    1. BM

      Our successors, yeah. When President AI solves all the world's problems-

    2. JR

      (laughs)

    3. BM

      ... we just give in.

    4. JR

      I don't know. I have faith in the human spirit.

    5. BM

      Mm.

    6. JR

      I gave a talk about this, uh, in, in Paris a few months ago-

    7. BM

      Yeah.

    8. JR

      ... about artificial versus ancestral intelligence, and I happen to think that what Homo naledi was doing is among some of the most intelligent activity our species can, uh, get itself busy with, which is investigating this notion of life and death. Um, I think that's, that's what makes us human, is asking th- these big questions and trying to figure out the nature of consciousness. And this is, this is what all these mystery religions were trying to do. I think they, there was more science than religion.

    9. BM

      Mm.

    10. JR

      Um, I mean, they're called mystery religions, but this was, uh, the process of our ancestors trying to figure out, um, the, the secrets to the universe in antiquity. And, and for... The working hypothesis is that psychedelic drugs and altered states of consciousness had something to do with that ability to probe into, uh, into these mysteries. And I think that, you know, the, the caves also have a lot to do with it. Like, there were, there were caves constantly, um, uh, being used by, well, predecessor species for sure, but then also ancient societies to enter into these profound states of awareness, going back into the womb of the Earth to really figure out that border between life and death, and maybe navigate it-

    11. BM

      Mm.

    12. JR

      ... maybe navigate successfully. This was, this was the enterprise of, of Ancient Egypt is being able to successfully navigate into the, into the afterlife, again, which is not a begin- which is not an end, but a beginning. This is how the mystery religions always talk about, about death and befriending death and confronting our mortality. Like, I'm not sure if AI will be able to, to, to plumb those secrets the way that we've been doing for all these thousands of years.

    13. BM

      That's interesting. I don't think... Well, why wouldn't it be able to? I mean, it, what it's essentially doing... Well, all human beings, everyone that is listening to this and everyone who i- isn't, you're, you're essentially riding on the work of the people that came before you. We're, we're all speaking a language that other people invented. We're using mathematics that other people invented. We're, you know, we live in structures that other people invented. Th- there's been just this massive sea of human beings before us that have innovated and created. But if AI can have access to everything they've ever learned and everything they've ever done and have an understanding of biology and of subatomic science, it, it'll... at a level that the, the average human being's just not capable of.

    14. JR

      Mm.

    15. BM

      Maybe it could understand a pattern that we've missed. Maybe it can understand a code that we've missed, that this whole thing is like there's, there's some sort of an underlying code to the entire universe-

    16. JR

      Mm.

    17. BM

      ... and that it all works together. And you're experiencing it as a human being riding the subway, driving in your car, going to w- you're experiencing this very minute realm of this overall experience that is all working together through this code that's creating everything.

    18. JR

      Mm.

    19. BM

      I think AI could figure that out.

    20. JR

      (laughs)

    21. BM

      I think we're, we're very limited because we're talking about our own experience and we're talking about our own biological mortality-

    22. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    23. BM

      ... so we have this window of time to sort things out.

    24. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    25. BM

      You know? Like, what is that quote? "Enlightenment is possible within your lifetime." The, we, we have this very small window.

    26. JR

      Mm.

    27. BM

      It's 100 years if you're lucky. And during that 100-year period, you're, you're asked a lot i- with this primitive monkey b- mind to try to figure things out. But if you didn't have that, if you didn't have that thing looming over you, maybe you'd have a more objective assessment of what's actually going on, what, what the species is actually doing-

    28. JR

      Mm.

    29. BM

      ... like, what it's here for.

    30. JR

      Mm. What is the... What's your, what's your takeaway on our biological mortality and what we're doing here in light of your most profound DMT experiences?

  12. 1:06:10 – 1:14:20

    Music as a drug: Colter Wall, frisson, and the Athens Axl Rose/Guns N’ Roses story

    1. BM

      Oh, for sure. Uh, do you know who Colter Wall is?

    2. JR

      Mm-mm.

    3. BM

      Jamie, play Kate McCammon. There's this song. Jamie turned me onto this song. And this dude i- is singing... He wrote and sang this song when he was 21 years old. And you, you listen and you go, "What the fuck?" This... It's very rare that I'll listen to a song and just go, "What the fuck?" But listen to this.

    4. JR

      Okay.

    5. NA

      (guitar playing) The raven is a wicked bird, his wings are black as sin. And he floats outside my prison window, mocking those within. And he sings to me real low, "It's hell to where you go.

    6. ... for you to murder Kate Buchanan.

    7. BM

      21.

    8. JR

      Hm.

    9. BM

      (slow instrumental music) Sounds like a 50-year-old rancher. (laughs)

    10. JR

      (laughs)

    11. NA

      When I first met-

    12. BM

      60, even.

    13. NA

      ... Tom Buchanan I was working in a mine.

    14. BM

      This is the music video that goes along with it.

    15. JR

      That's wild.

    16. NA

      He said he had himself a dark haired daughter with long green eyes. And when she and I did meet. She was bathing in the creek. Prettiest girl in the whole damn holler. That ain't no lie.

    17. BM

      Good luck, AI.

    18. JR

      (laughs) Yeah.

    19. BM

      You ain't gonna make this.

    20. JR

      (laughs)

    21. BM

      You never think of this.

    22. JR

      That's the point.

    23. BM

      Yeah.

    24. JR

      That's not good.

    25. BM

      I was gonna say, but why is this ...

    26. JR

      That's the point.

    27. BM

      This is special to us. So, what we are is special to us 'cause we are us.

    28. JR

      Hm.

    29. BM

      But it'll be the next thing.

    30. JR

      We have this knack for producing things that we know will resonate.

  13. 1:14:20 – 1:40:01

    Animal minds and domestication: dogs understanding language, wolves in dreams, fox experiments, and deer farms

    1. BM

      Like, my dog understands English. Like, I could say-

    2. GS

      Really?

    3. BM

      Yeah. I c- We should've brought him today. But everyone was at the house and he was having fun, and there's a deer in our backyard, there was a lot of d- drama today. There was a deer with a broken leg in my backyard.

    4. GS

      Oh, man.

    5. BM

      Yeah. Um, yeah, some poor little buck, a little young buck. And, um, I was, uh, get- And it was in the morning, like 7:00 in the morning, everyone's getting ready to go to school. I made a cup of coffee. I, uh, I let the dog back in and he hadn't seen it, so he's like chilling on the back porch and, uh, I let him in and I look over there and it looks like a fucking statue. It's a buck just standing there. I mean, like, 40 feet from me. And I'm like, "Why is there a deer there?" And then I close the door, "Girls, girls, girls, come here. Check this out." And then I look at the way he's standing and go, "Ooh, his back leg's broken."

    6. GS

      Hmm.

    7. BM

      He's got a, His shin is fractured. His back, like where your, your shin would be?

    8. GS

      Hmm.

    9. BM

      It's bending back the wrong way.

    10. GS

      (laughs)

    11. BM

      It's, it's broken. And so w- We called Animal Protection and they didn't know what to do and so we're, we're literally trying to find him an animal veterinarian to fix this deer's leg. Which is just so crazy, 'cause I shoot deers and I eat 'em.

    12. GS

      (laughs) But-

    13. BM

      (laughs)

    14. GS

      But you feel bad for this one?

    15. BM

      For that one, I was like, he's, first, 'cause he's very young, I would never shoot him. He's a little young fella. He's just, it looks like a yearling, like he's just got his horns for the first time.

    16. GS

      Hmm.

    17. BM

      And he's like really confused and he's hurt and he can't ... And he's in my yard because I guess he's, like, safer there? And so the dog finally does find him and when the dog finds him, he's, he's like kinda jumping around him and bouncing and like, "You wanna play?" Like w- And the deer can't run, so he's just standing there going, "Hey, man, are you gonna eat me?" Like, "What's going on here?" And it was, it was very interesting. But he know, like my dog, he can say, "Come on, man. Cut the shit. Get inside."

    18. GS

      Hmm.

    19. BM

      And he goes inside.

    20. GS

      Hmm.

    21. BM

      Or I can say, "Don't go out this door. We're gonna go to the other door." "Oh, okay." He just goes to the other door. Like, I can say things like that, like he knows. Like I say, "Not that door, dude. The other one." And he'll start going towards the other door. It's very weird. Like I say, "You wanna watch TV?" And he goes into the TV room. And like, he waits for me to plop up on the couch, then he hops up next to me, like he, he speaks English, or he knows English, he just can't talk.

Episode duration: 3:47:07

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