Joe Rogan Experience #2051 - Graham Hancock

1. 0:00 – 1:21

   Ancient Apocalypse’s success and why deep history is so contentious

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumming music plays) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. GHGraham Hancock0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music plays) Hello, Graham Hancock.

   4. GHGraham Hancock0:13

      Hello, Joe Rogan.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Good to see you, my friend.

   6. GHGraham Hancock0:15

      Good to be back with you.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      Hey, congratulations on the success of your show. It's been, uh, it's very awesome to see, and it's been, uh, really awesome to hear from so many people about it that know that I'm really fascinated by the subject. And the reviews have all been super positive from my friends, so I'm real excited about it.

   8. GHGraham Hancock0:30

      Well, thank you for appearing on, on Ancient Apocalypse as well.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:33

      My pleasure, my pleasure.

   10. GHGraham Hancock0:34

       Uh-

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       It's a, a subject to me that is so unbelievably fascinating and so bizarre that it's controversial.

   12. GHGraham Hancock0:41

       (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:41

       I do not understand. I mean, we, we were just talking about this, and I said, "Let's stop talking when we're about, when we're getting coffee."

   14. GHGraham Hancock0:47

       (laughs) Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:48

       It's, to me, it seems like there's things that are concrete, right? We know when Genghis Khan lived.

   16. GHGraham Hancock0:55

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:55

       We know when they built the Sistine Chapel. We know, we know a lot about the Parthenon, the Acropolis. We know about 2,000 years ago. We know... When you start going way, way, way, way, way back, things get real sketchy. And to not admit that-

   18. GHGraham Hancock1:10

       Hmm.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:10

       ... seems so crazy. When they find things when they're making apartment buildings sometimes-

   20. GHGraham Hancock1:16

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:16

       ... they're digging into the ground, they go, "Oh, hold on a second, what is this? D- doesn't it happen in Mexico City all the time?"

   22. GHGraham Hancock1:20

       Yeah, it does.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:21

       Yeah.

2. 1:21 – 3:47

   Archaeology as narrative control: accusations, gatekeeping, and ‘dangerous show’ rhetoric

   1. GHGraham Hancock1:21

      And, and, and actually, that's how a lot of archaeology happens. Um, somebody's building a road or building a, uh, apartment buildings or building a dam, and they call in archaeologists to see if there's anything, any interesting archaeology there.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:37

      Hmm.

   3. GHGraham Hancock1:37

      And this is, this is part of the problem I have with, with archaeology as a discipline. It likes to think of itself as scientific, but what I think it's primarily doing, and it is weird, is trying to control the narrative about the past.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:54

      Do you think that's because the people that are in control of archaeology, the academics, the professors, these people have written books on these things, have lectured on these things, and they've been very specific about timelines and dates?

   5. GHGraham Hancock2:07

      Yeah, I think it's, I think it's a complicated (coughs) it's a complicated mixture, uh, of, of things. Fir- first of all, because archaeology is so desperate to be seen as a science, it tries as hard as possible to distance itself from any ideas that might be seen as woo-woo. You know, anything, anything out on the edge, archaeology doesn't want to associate itself with, and then it c- takes the next step and, and, and really seeks to attack out-on-the-edge, uh, ideas. Now, I don't know why the possibility of a lost civilization during the Ice Age should be an out-on-the-edge idea. Uh, we've had lost civilizations before. The Indus Valley civilization, uh, in, in, today in Pakistan wasn't known about until the 1920s. It was found by accident, and, you know, every turn of the archaeologist's spade can reveal new information. But, uh, their, their, their... The reaction to my proposal that we've forgotten an episode in the human story, it's always been hostile since I published Fingerprints of the Gods in 1995. But with Ancient Apocalypse, much bigger platform, reaching a much wider audience, the, the reaction was just hysterical, and it went on for a very long time. And it appeared to be, it appeared to me... I don't think it's a conspiracy. I don't think archaeologists are involved in a conspiracy. I think the people who are attacking me genuinely believe in what they're saying and they genuinely think I'm harmful. But that's like calling it the most dangerous show on Netflix. (laughs)

   6. JRJoe Rogan3:35

      How did they come up with that? How is it harmful to be speculating about ancient structures? It's interesting.

   7. GHGraham Hancock3:44

      Yeah. That's-

   8. JRJoe Rogan3:45

      And it's-

   9. GHGraham Hancock3:45

      ... that's, that's what I don't get.

3. 3:47 – 4:44

   The ‘racism’ controversy and the bearded-foreigner myths of the Americas

   1. JRJoe Rogan3:47

      The, the other thing is the racist angle. Like, we're talking about the exact same people.

   2. GHGraham Hancock3:52

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan3:52

      We're just talking about an older time. It does-

   4. GHGraham Hancock3:54

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan3:54

      ... it doesn't make any sense at all.

   6. GHGraham Hancock3:56

      No.

   7. JRJoe Rogan3:56

      In fact, it, it kinda points to the superiority of the Egyptian race.

   8. GHGraham Hancock4:01

      Absolutely.

   9. JRJoe Rogan4:01

      I mean, eh, whatever they did, however they did it-

   10. GHGraham Hancock4:04

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan4:05

       ... is unbelievably extraordinary.

   12. GHGraham Hancock4:07

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan4:08

       And I'd... I think pointing that out is amazing.

   14. GHGraham Hancock4:12

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan4:12

       I mean, what, what you're discovering and what you're showing on that show is that there are a lot of mysteries when it comes to the history of human beings, and we should embrace those mysteries-

   16. GHGraham Hancock4:23

       Definitely.

   17. JRJoe Rogan4:23

       ... because there's concrete, irrefutable evidence, especially in terms of, like, Gobekli Tepe-

   18. GHGraham Hancock4:29

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan4:29

       ... and some of the other structures. I mean, this is wild stuff.

   20. GHGraham Hancock4:33

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan4:33

       The idea that human beings had an advanced civilization 10,000, 20,000 years ago, 30,000 years ago. What happened?

   22. GHGraham Hancock4:41

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan4:41

       That's the, that's what's really interesting.

   24. GHGraham Hancock4:43

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan4:43

       Like, what happened?

4. 4:44 – 9:02

   Younger Dryas cataclysm and where Ice Age survivors might have lived

   1. GHGraham Hancock4:44

      And that's why it's Ancient Apocalypse, because-

   2. JRJoe Rogan4:46

      Yeah.

   3. GHGraham Hancock4:47

      ... because we know that there was a global cataclysm. Uh, a slow one, 1,200 years long, between 12,800 and 11,600 years ago called the Younger Dryas. There's still arguments about what caused it, but the fact that it was cataclysmic is not, is not really, uh, not really disputed. The, the accusations that were put against me and the show of being... The accusations included the words racis- racist, white supremacist, uh, misogynist, and antisemitic.

   4. JRJoe Rogan5:19

      They give you the full hand.

   5. GHGraham Hancock5:20

      (laughs)

   6. JRJoe Rogan5:21

      They didn't even do one card off.

   7. GHGraham Hancock5:22

      The show doesn't, doesn't touch on any of these issues. Race is not, race is not mentioned in the show. So what the archaeologists were doing there, they were going back to Fingerprints of the Gods that I wrote in 1995, in which I reported indigenous traditions about the appearance of bearded foreigners bringing knowledge after a cataclysm to the shattered survivors of that cataclysm. And in some cases, in those traditions, those, uh, knowledge-bringers are described as white-skinned. And that is, uh, that is why the show was accused of racis- r- racism, because archaeology has since taken the view that all of those stories were made up by the Spanish. And that seems to me completely ridiculous. Uh, both in-... Mexico and in Peru and Bolivia we have traditions. We have them, uh, Viracocha, we have Quetzalcoatl, we have Bochica. This is a Pan-American myth, and actually it's, I think it's racist, racist of archeology, uh, to imagine that the magic powers of the Spaniards could impose a myth upon indigenous peoples-

   8. JRJoe Rogan6:25

      Hmm.

   9. GHGraham Hancock6:26

      ... all over the Americas, that they'd just be so stupid that they would fall for this story told by the Spaniards. Of course, these are indigenous myths and traditions, and I was reporting them, uh, in, in that book, and I stand by them. And it turns out that there's actually a huge argument within academia about this, and my critics were just giving one, one side of that argument.

   10. JRJoe Rogan6:45

       And what is the rest of the argument? What is the other side of it?

   11. GHGraham Hancock6:49

       Well, the other side of the argument, that it's inconceivable that the Spaniards-

   12. JRJoe Rogan6:53

       Mm-hmm.

   13. GHGraham Hancock6:53

       ... made up these stories. These stories were reported to the first Spanish visitors in Mexico and in Peru. They were reported to them by indigenous peoples as indigenous myths, and the fact that they're right spread across the Americas, uh, makes it very unlikely (laughs) . I mean, if it was one story, but if it's a dozen stories and they're told over a huge geographical region, the notion that this is a, a Spanish conspiracy, it's an ultimate conspiracy theory.

   14. JRJoe Rogan7:19

       Hmm.

   15. GHGraham Hancock7:19

       Uh, I don't think we should take away these traditions from the indigenous people who, who reported them, um, but, uh, it gave a very useful handle for people to, uh, a- attack this, this series on.

   16. JRJoe Rogan7:33

       So, the theory is that it was an uneven destruction, right? And that some places fared better than other places in terms of the Younger Dryas impact theory, right?

   17. GHGraham Hancock7:45

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan7:45

       And that those people might have, uh, reclaimed a modicum of civilization.

   19. GHGraham Hancock7:51

       Yeah. That's, that's, that's the idea. And by the way, on that point, uh, I have never in anything that I've written, uh, or anything that I've broadcast, uh, ever s- ever myself suggested, uh, that, uh, white races were involved. Actually, it would be quite stupid to do so, 'cause if you look at Europe during the Ice Age, and I'm talking about a lost civilization of the Ice Age, Northern Europe and North America were absolutely inhospitable wildernesses during the Ice Age. They were frozen, they were dry, and they were dangerous, and they were not the places that people would go. People naturally gravitated south towards the equator, towards the tropics. That's where I would expect to find traces of a lost civilization, and that's where I do find traces-

   20. JRJoe Rogan8:34

       Hmm.

   21. GHGraham Hancock8:34

       ... of a lost civiliza- You don't really find... I've, I've never reported anything about the UK, for example, in my books. We have Stonehenge, we have Avebury, we have these stone circles, but they're not old enough. That was the time when the UK started (laughs) to get warmer, and it's the same with the rest of Northern Europe, and it's the same with the northern part of North America. You have to go down to s- the southern part of North America, you have to go into Mexico, you have to go into the, into South America to really find an environment during the Ice Age that would have nurtured a high civilization.

5. 9:02 – 10:47

   Peopling of the Americas: Clovis First collapses, footprints, and the ‘mindset’ problem

   1. JRJoe Rogan9:02

      And there's a lot of speculation as to why they weren't able to cross the Bering Landmass too, right?

   2. GHGraham Hancock9:08

      Well, the, the... Again, (laughs) , this is an area where there has been a narrative that archeology has sought to impose upon us, and this was, this was called the Clovis First idea-

   3. JRJoe Rogan9:18

      Hmm.

   4. GHGraham Hancock9:18

      ... that there was a people who archeologists called the Clovis people, we don't know what they called themselves, uh, in North America. And traces of their characteristic, uh, tools, particular sort of fluted points, arrowhead spear points, turn up from about 13,400 years ago, and end abruptly 12,800 years ago. And for a long time, with the beginning of the Younger Dryas, and for a long time, archeology maintained that this Clovis culture, so-called Clovis culture, we don't know what they called themselves, were the first Americans, and that there were no human beings in the Americas before 13,400 years ago. And bit by bit, the new evidence has come in which has forced archeologists screaming and tearing out their hair to back away from the Clovis first paradigm and admit that actually, yes, there were people here before that. But even then, they're reluctant to go very far back. We've recently had these, uh, these footprints in, in White Sands in, in New Mexico, 23,000 years old or so. That's largely being accepted now, but there are much earlier dates. There's 130,000 years ago from the Cerruti mastodon site near San Diego.

   5. JRJoe Rogan10:24

      That's the one that's being disputed because they say it could have been rocks that crushed the bones-

   6. GHGraham Hancock10:28

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan10:28

      ... and made them that way.

   8. GHGraham Hancock10:29

      Yeah. What I, what I see again is a, is an unfortunate mindset where a new and interesting idea is proposed, supported by massives of evidence, and published in Nature, you know, Nature has a pretty high bar to what it accepts, um, and, and then the critics look for any way to get rid of it.

6. 10:47 – 14:10

   Alaska ‘Boneyard’ megafauna, cut bones, and mass die-off vs. overkill hypothesis

   1. JRJoe Rogan10:47

      Can I stop you here? Are you aware of the boneyard in Alaska?

   2. GHGraham Hancock10:50

      I've heard of it, and it sounds fascinating.

   3. JRJoe Rogan10:52

      Oh, my God.

   4. GHGraham Hancock10:52

      I don't think he's r- uh, revealed much about that to the public yet.

   5. JRJoe Rogan10:55

      Well, w- it's an amazing, amazing discovery. This guy's a gold miner-

   6. GHGraham Hancock10:59

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan10:59

      ... and he has this large piece of land in Alaska. They're mining for gold and they start finding, like, tusks and bones.

   8. GHGraham Hancock11:05

      Right.

   9. JRJoe Rogan11:05

      And in one area that's only a few acres, they found thousands and thousands of woolly mammoth bones-

   10. GHGraham Hancock11:12

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan11:13

       ... and tusks and, uh, l- and, um, a saber-toothed tiger. Was it saber-toothed tiger, or no? Uh, uh, uh, was short-faced bear.

   12. GHGraham Hancock11:20

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan11:20

       They found all these like, r-

   14. GHGraham Hancock11:22

       All the megafauna of the Ice Age.

   15. JRJoe Rogan11:23

       Many animals that weren't even supposed to exist in Alaska.

   16. GHGraham Hancock11:27

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan11:28

       And he's like, "Look, we have the bones of it."

   18. GHGraham Hancock11:29

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan11:30

       And one of the things they found recently was bones that were sawed, clearly sawed.

   20. GHGraham Hancock11:36

       Human workmanship.

   21. JRJoe Rogan11:37

       But, like, a sophisticated tool.

   22. GHGraham Hancock11:39

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan11:39

       Let me see, see, see if you can pull it up so you can see how it looked.

   24. GHGraham Hancock11:42

       ... clearly cut, clearly so, yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan11:43

       Isn't that amazing?

   26. GHGraham Hancock11:44

       Yeah, absolutely.

   27. JRJoe Rogan11:46

       So they're trying to find out what the dates on these are. I don't-

   28. GHGraham Hancock11:49

       That's, that was my next question. Have they da- have they dated it?

   29. JRJoe Rogan11:51

       They just got these recently. This is fairly recent, so I, I believe... He's had some issues with, uh, universities, uh, not giving back his stuff and-

   30. GHGraham Hancock12:01

       Mm-hmm.
7. 14:10 – 15:35

   Younger Dryas Impact Hypothesis: comet fragments, airbursts, wildfires, and meltwater

   1. GHGraham Hancock14:10

      And that's why the Younger Dryas Impact Hypothesis, which is solid science although undoubtedly disputed, which suggests that multiple fragments of a disintegrating comet, uh, hit the Earth 12,800 years ago. Many of them didn't hit the Earth. Many of them exploded in the sky. They were not that big, maybe 100 meters in, in diameter, so they were air bursts but they leave these characteristic signatures in the ground and that-

   2. JRJoe Rogan14:34

      Like Tunguska.

   3. GHGraham Hancock14:35

      L- exactly like Tunguska. The, the, the Tunguska event is a recent example of that, 30th of June 1908, happens to be at the peak of the Beta Taurids and the Taurid meteor stream is identified as the likely culprit for what happened in the, in the Younger Dryas. Um, wildfires burning, you get these impacts smashing into, smashing into the Earth, bursting in the air over forests. They cause huge fires, and huge... And that's, uh, why you get enormous amounts of, of charcoal-

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:04

      Hmm.

   5. GHGraham Hancock15:04

      ... uh, as a result. And then the larger objects, it's thought, hit the North American ice cap and caused a very large amount of meltwater to flow into the world ocean, and that's what brought temperatures down at the beginning of the, of, of the Younger Dryas. We can argue there, there are alternative theories. Maybe solar activity was involved. Robert Schoch prefers a change in solar activity and, and, you know, kudos to Robert. He's a, he's a brilliant scientist and he's put his neck on the line by advocating a much older Sphinx. Any scientist these days in the field of (laughs) archeology

8. 15:35 – 27:29

   Where archaeology hasn’t looked: Amazon, submerged shelves, and Sahara as missing chapters

   1. GHGraham Hancock15:35

      who sticks his neck out and says that the archeological narrative is wrong immediately gets massively attacked, and I think that's- (clears throat) I think that's most unfortunate. A couple of points I'd like to make about this. First of all, we said at the beginning, most archeology, certainly in the industrialized countries, is a result of a dam or a road being built and archeologists being called in to see if there's anything there. It's not a targeted search. It's kind of random. Something's happening and archeologists go in there. Um, and then there's huge areas of the world that have had very little archeology done in them. Uh, those include the Amazon rainforest where I've just been. Uh, I've been three weeks in the Brazilian Amazon, another couple of weeks in, in, in Peru, and there are extraordinary revelations coming out of the Amazon rainforest. Now, the Amazon rainforest, up until very recently, had very little archeology done. You're talking about 6,000,000 square kilometers of the Earth's surface which has hardly been touched by archeology, and now it is being touched by archeology thanks to lidar, which is identifying enormous structures under the canopy. We're finding that we have to rewrite the whole story of the Amazon, that there were potentially populations of millions living in the Amazon, that there were cities that were joned- joined by roads hundreds of kilometers in length. All of these things are, are recent discoveries which says we should be thinking again about the Amazon. Same goes for the submerged continental shelves. 27,000,000 square kilometers of the best real estate on Earth that were above water during the Ice Age are underwater now. Yes, there's been some marine archeology, but not enough, uh, to rule out the possibility of a lost civilization.

   2. JRJoe Rogan17:12

      Hmm.

   3. GHGraham Hancock17:12

      And the same with the Sahara Desert. 9,000,000 square kilometers, a little bit of archeology done but before archeologists say, "There, there was no lost civiliz-" This is what the Society for American Archeology said in their open letter to Netflix, uh, complaining about my show. Uh, they said, "We know that there was no lost civilization during the Ice Age." And my question to them is, how can they possibly know that when they've looked at relatively small areas of the Earth? The picture is not complete. They should be saying, "We don't think there was a lost civilization during the Ice Age." Fine. But to say, "We know there wasn't"? That's, that's completely wrong.

   4. JRJoe Rogan17:47

      Well, it's silly and it's also...... it becomes more and more of a problem the more things get discovered, and the more they push back harder-

   5. GHGraham Hancock17:55

      That's right.

   6. JRJoe Rogan17:55

      ... and more emotionally, and more religiously.

   7. GHGraham Hancock17:57

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan17:57

      It's re- really kind of crazy the way they behave, that is, is if they have, like, an accurate map.

   9. GHGraham Hancock18:03

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan18:03

       Like, the way they viewed some of the older hieroglyphs that depict civilizations that were 30,000 years ago-

   11. GHGraham Hancock18:10

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan18:10

       ... like kings and, and the lineage.

   13. GHGraham Hancock18:11

       The king lists from-

   14. JRJoe Rogan18:12

       Yeah.

   15. GHGraham Hancock18:12

       ... ancient Egypt go back 30, 30-plus thousand years.

   16. JRJoe Rogan18:14

       But they wanna pretend that those are myth.

   17. GHGraham Hancock18:16

       Yeah, and yet, for their chronology of ancient Egypt, they actually use the king lists. The moment those king lists start giving dates that fall within dates that archaeologists like, every-

   18. JRJoe Rogan18:28

       (laughs)

   19. GHGraham Hancock18:28

       ... everything before those dates, they say, "Oh, they just made it up."

   20. JRJoe Rogan18:31

       How crazy is that? W- wouldn't it be a fascinating alternative if you were an archaeologist, to go, "You know what? Maybe this kings list is legit."

   21. GHGraham Hancock18:40

       Hmm.

   22. JRJoe Rogan18:40

       "Maybe this thing really is 30, 40,000 years old."

   23. GHGraham Hancock18:44

       Yeah. Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan18:44

       "And maybe that explains a lot, and now we have to figure out how."

   25. GHGraham Hancock18:47

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan18:47

       "How'd they do it?"

   27. GHGraham Hancock18:48

       It would be a fascinating alternative.

   28. JRJoe Rogan18:50

       Yeah.

   29. GHGraham Hancock18:50

       But, but unfortunately, it's not the way that archaeology works at the moment. I repeat, I ... a lot of archaeologists have accused me of accusing them of a conspiracy against me, and trying to suppress my-

   30. JRJoe Rogan19:02

       Well, they're just trying to make you look very kook.
9. 27:29 – 38:38

   Amazon revelations: Terra Preta, engineered landscapes, and giant geometric earthworks

   1. GHGraham Hancock27:29

      I was just in Manaus, uh, and it's, it's fascinating, actually. They have a, a tower up there on the edge of the jungle. You can go up that tower 150 meters up, and on one side, extending endlessly, infinitely into the distance, is the Amazon rainforest.

   2. JRJoe Rogan27:44

      Wow.

   3. GHGraham Hancock27:44

      Turn the other way, and there's the city of Manaus-

   4. JRJoe Rogan27:47

      Wow.

   5. GHGraham Hancock27:47

      ... looking at you with its, with i- with its skyscrapers. And it's just-

   6. JRJoe Rogan27:50

      That's gotta be wild.

   7. GHGraham Hancock27:51

      It's a, it's a wild sight to see. Um, and, and, uh, actually there ... the interesting thing about the Amazon, Joe, is, uh, it's been grievously misunderstood over the years. And fortunately, archeology is beginning to come to terms with it. There was agriculture in the Amazon, going back a very long way, going back at least 10,000 years, maybe, maybe further. Um, and we, we may have discussed this before, but there's this-

   8. JRJoe Rogan28:16

      Yeah, we did.

   9. GHGraham Hancock28:16

      ... there's this curious soil that exists in the Amazon that they call Terra Preta, uh, or Amazonian dark earth. Recent, uh, investigations have shown without doubt that it's manmade, and deliberately manmade, not an accidental result of refuse tips, but a deliberate attempt to make the Amazon fertile.

   10. JRJoe Rogan28:35

       And how do they know that it's deliberate?

   11. GHGraham Hancock28:37

       Uh, because they find in it the same ingredients. And amongst th- amongst those ingredients are always broken bits of, um, ceramics. That's one of the odd things. They seem to be part of what makes it work.

   12. JRJoe Rogan28:48

       Really?

   13. GHGraham Hancock28:48

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan28:48

       Ceramics?

   15. GHGraham Hancock28:49

       Ceramics. In, mixed in there with, with dung, with, with, um, human refuse, all deliberately put in there. Not an accidental dung heap, but a place that human beings said, "We're gonna make this ground fertile." 'Cause rainforest soils are not particularly fertile. The fertility of the Amazon comes entirely from the fall of leaves onto the soil. It re-fertilizes itself. But to grow crops on the Amazon is a very different prospect. And this is where Terra Preta, uh, really comes into its own. And I've, I've, I've been standing in a pit with an, with an archeologist there, a Terra Preta pit, and you can see this beautiful rich soil. And it is a mystery. It constantly replenishes itself. It never gets used up. Settlers seek it out, seek out areas of Terra Preta. And it fits with this notion that d- no longer a notion, it's a fact, that there, there was a population of millions in the Amazon 10,000 years ago. And, uh, they were living a, a highly productive, sophisticated life. They were using agriculture. They also gardened the Amazon. The, the hyperdominant tree, trees in the Amazon are all fruit-bearing trees. The Brazil nut tree, for example-... which, a huge, tall tree, um, is a food-bearing tree and they exist in far greater numbers than they should do if they'd developed naturally. Humans manipulated the Amazon and made it serve human needs thousands and thousands of years ago. And then we have these enormous structures that are appearing in the Amazon, which are being referred to as geoglyphs. They call them geoglyphs after the Nazca Lines, actually. The Nazca Lines in Peru are, are huge ground images, sometimes geometrical in form, sometimes showing animals or birds or spiders, other creatures, often actually showing Amazonian an- animals. But in the Brazilian Amazon, in the State of Acre, uh, as a result of clearances of the Amazon that have been done for farming purposes, there's this rush to just cut the Amazon down and replace it with cattle ranches and soybean farms. Those clearances have revealed something that, again, according to the old view of the Amazon, shouldn't be there, which is gigantic earthworks, huge ones, a bit like the henges in, in Europe. Uh, enormous embankments, ditches, and in geometrical forms, so you get enormous squares, enormous circles. You get a circle within a square. Uh, they keep repeating these, these geometrical images, and they're thousands of years old. Uh, when, when we were down there just, just recently, we had a local LiDAR guy working with us. These days, you could, you don't have to even use an airplane to find things with LiDAR. You can fly LiDAR off a drone.

   16. JRJoe Rogan31:30

       Oh.

   17. GHGraham Hancock31:31

       And flying his drone within a mile of known structures that are outside the rainforest now, he found two more huge geoglyphs under the rainforest canopy, which will be, which will be investigated. And this is, uh, bizarre and, and puzzling. They reckon, the team working on this, that's Martti Parasinen of the University of Helsinki and Alceu Ranzi, who's a Brazilian archeologist and geologist, um, they reckon that there's thousands of these things still under the rainforest canopy, and there's a huge untold story. So one of the places I would look for a lost civilization is the Amazon rainforest.

   18. JRJoe Rogan32:07

       How do they know that the terra preta replenishes itself? How does it do that?

   19. GHGraham Hancock32:12

       It's something to do with microbes and bacteria that are in, that are in the soil, and they, they keep on regenerating. They don't get used up. It's a kind of, it's a kind of miracle. It's not fully understood. Nob- nobody can say they fully understand terra preta. But what is fully understood, and it's understood by settlers, is that if they plant on terra preta, they're gonna get rich crops coming out of it.

   20. JRJoe Rogan32:35

       Is there a way to reproduce that in America?

   21. GHGraham Hancock32:38

       Attempts have been made to reproduce it, and biochar is one of the words that comes, that comes to mind. Um, there's even indications that some of the modern indigenous peoples of the Amazon, uh, are still creating terra preta. This is a whole mystery that needs to be investigated much further. We're looking at the oldest examples are more than 8,000 years old, and that's just in the areas that have been surveyed. Very likely, terra preta goes back much, much, much earlier than that.

   22. JRJoe Rogan33:05

       'Cause it's such an issue with modern farmlands, where they have to use these, uh, m- modern fertilizers.

   23. GHGraham Hancock33:11

       Mm.

   24. JRJoe Rogan33:11

       They have to use-

   25. GHGraham Hancock33:12

       Which is, which are not helpful in many ways.

   26. JRJoe Rogan33:13

       And they run off.

   27. GHGraham Hancock33:14

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan33:14

       Like, the topsoil's worn out.

   29. GHGraham Hancock33:16

       Yeah, yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan33:16

       And so if they could figure out a way to reproduce terra preta.
10. 38:38 – 42:46

    What were the geoglyphs for? Indigenous accounts, shamanic use, and astronomical alignment

    1. JRJoe Rogan38:38

       So do you think this was the base of a structure? Like, what is the speculation?

    2. GHGraham Hancock38:42

       N- no, I don't think so. I've talked to indigenous people there who still respect and revere them, um, and they say that they were for shamanic journeying, that the, that the population would gather within them, that there would be certain areas that might be reserved for the, for the shamans. For example, the square on the left, those two cut out areas, top left and, and, and right of that square-

    3. JRJoe Rogan39:04

       Mm-hmm.

    4. GHGraham Hancock39:04

       It's suggested that shamans were in there and the rest of the population were in the other area, and they were, they were undertaking visionary journeys, uh, perhaps using ayahuasca. Uh, of course, the a- the Amazonian peoples are experts in the properties of indigenous plants, um-

    5. JRJoe Rogan39:22

       So this is their folklore, or this is their, their story? That-

    6. GHGraham Hancock39:26

       Yes, this is the story of indigenous, uh, indigenous people.

    7. JRJoe Rogan39:29

       So that's what they say is-

    8. GHGraham Hancock39:29

       I, I, I, I talked to a- an Apurina, um, elder, uh, and he said, "We don't know exactly why these places were made. They were made so long ago, but we respect them, we revere them, and we think that they were used by shamans in the distant, in the distant past."

    9. JRJoe Rogan39:45

       So they were aware of them before the clearing and everything?

    10. GHGraham Hancock39:47

        Yeah, they were aware of them before the clearing, and they-

    11. JRJoe Rogan39:49

        Did-

    12. GHGraham Hancock39:49

        ... and they revered them.

    13. JRJoe Rogan39:50

        Did they use them? They just-

    14. GHGraham Hancock39:50

        Yes, they used them, and they still have community gatherings in them.

    15. JRJoe Rogan39:54

        Yeah.

    16. GHGraham Hancock39:54

        No, they weren't, they weren't a base for, for structures. I'm drawing attention here to Severino Calazans, this large square on the left there, which has coincidentally the same footprint as the Great Pyramid of Giza. It just shows you the size of that, uh, that enormous earthwork, um, but it's a mystery. More work, more work needs to be done, and much more needs to be surveyed, and thanks to LiDAR, that can be done non-invasively. Uh, we can spot these things. Very small teams can go in and do a bit of excavation there and figure out what was going on. I think the story is gonna go back further and further into the past.

    17. JRJoe Rogan40:27

        Is there any evidence of s- of wood structures? Like, did they make buildings out of wood back then?

    18. GHGraham Hancock40:34

        Um, not that I'm, not that I'm aware of.

    19. JRJoe Rogan40:36

        When did people start using wood as a structure?

    20. GHGraham Hancock40:38

        Oh, I think you can, I think you can trace wood back as a structure hundreds of thousands of years, yeah.

    21. JRJoe Rogan40:42

        But, but they, when did they start using it in, like, i- if you, if you see, like, the ancient Mayan civilizations, the, the, what you find in the Amazon, you don't find ancient wood structures, do you?

    22. GHGraham Hancock40:54

        I think that's largely an artifact of the fact that w- that wood doesn't preserve very well, yeah.

    23. JRJoe Rogan40:57

        Right. So how do we know that there weren't wood structures-

    24. GHGraham Hancock41:00

        There may well have been.

    25. JRJoe Rogan41:01

        ... over these-

    26. GHGraham Hancock41:01

        There may well have been-

    27. JRJoe Rogan41:02

        Right.

    28. GHGraham Hancock41:02

        ... which have, which have just rotted away-

    29. JRJoe Rogan41:04

        Right.

    30. GHGraham Hancock41:05

        ... and, and, and, and gone. There may, there may well have been wooden structures there.
11. 42:46 – 48:06

    Ancient art and sky knowledge: Colombian rock paintings and Ice Age zodiac debates

    1. GHGraham Hancock42:46

       Um, there, there's, um, a huge, uh, rock wall, uh, has been found in the Colombian Amazon, Serra da la La- Lindosa, which I'm hoping to get to this year. Eight kilometers long, covered in rock paintings. The rock paintings are dated more than 12,000 years old. They show, uh, extinct mega fauna, they show giant sloths which went extinct during the Younger Dryas, for example, and they also s- show the kind of entities that are seen in Ayahuasca visions. They show the same sort of patterns, the same geometric patterns that are seen in Ayahuasca. So there's a sense that-

    2. JRJoe Rogan43:21

       Do, do you have any images of this place?

    3. GHGraham Hancock43:23

       Um, Serra da la, da La Lindosa, just to-

    4. JRJoe Rogan43:25

       You're connected to the-

    5. GHGraham Hancock43:27

       Yeah, I don't have images of La Lindosa on here.

    6. JRJoe Rogan43:29

       Oh, maybe you could Google it.

    7. GHGraham Hancock43:30

       Um, but if, if, uh-

    8. JRJoe Rogan43:32

       Or give the plug back to Jamie.

    9. NANarrator43:33

       Yeah, I'll give the plug back. I was trying to Google it and I didn't find anything. And I might have s- spelled or guessed wrong on Serra-

    10. JRJoe Rogan43:39

        How do you spell it?

    11. NANarrator43:40

        ... da la Lindosa.

    12. GHGraham Hancock43:42

        La Lindosa.

    13. NANarrator43:43

        La Lindosa?

    14. GHGraham Hancock43:43

        Yeah. Let me just, uh ...

    15. NANarrator43:46

        I got it. I got it.

    16. GHGraham Hancock43:47

        You got it?

    17. NANarrator43:48

        Yeah.

    18. JRJoe Rogan43:49

        You're gonna have to give him the cord real quick and then he'll give it back to you.

    19. GHGraham Hancock43:52

        Okay. There you go. Um, it's, uh, l- literally an, an eight kilometer Sistine Chapel, uh, in the, in the Colombian Amazon. That's the other thing. I mentioned there's not a lot of rock in the Amazon. Where there is rock, they used it. There's rock paintings, uh, all over, uh, the Amazon where rock is available. These kind of things, yeah, that's it.

    20. JRJoe Rogan44:14

        Wow.

    21. GHGraham Hancock44:15

        Um, these, these are characteristic of Ayahuasca visions, but in this case they're more than 12,000 years old. Now, does that prove they were using Ayahuasca 12,000 years ago? No. But it's def-

    22. JRJoe Rogan44:25

        That's, uh, very similar to like a tryptamine vision, though.

    23. GHGraham Hancock44:27

        Totally, totally. It does suggest that some tryptamine was being accessed at that time and resulting in these, in these, uh, vision- visionary images.

    24. JRJoe Rogan44:37

        Boy, they had shitty drawers, weren't there?

    25. GHGraham Hancock44:39

        (laughs)

    26. JRJoe Rogan44:40

        D- their drawing was terrible (laughs) .

    27. GHGraham Hancock44:41

        But bear in mind that, uh, they're, they're clambering a, a hundred feet up a sheer cliff in order to, uh, in order to-

    28. JRJoe Rogan44:48

        Still guys, do a better job.

    29. GHGraham Hancock44:49

        ... create (laughs) create-

    30. JRJoe Rogan44:50

        Ridiculous.
12. 48:06 – 53:15

    Deep-time humans and ‘stuff keeps getting older’: early structures, Neanderthals, and Homo naledi

    1. JRJoe Rogan48:06

       Brian and I were talking about, uh, one of the ancient versions of human beings and I ju- I sent him this the other day-

    2. GHGraham Hancock48:14

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JRJoe Rogan48:14

       ... because I read this article (clears throat) that I thought was amazing where it was talking about, um, they, they found sto- wooden structures-... that were half a million years old.

    4. GHGraham Hancock48:26

       Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, that's right.

    5. JRJoe Rogan48:27

       Yeah, so I'll send you this chain link.

    6. GHGraham Hancock48:28

       You- you sent that to me as well.

    7. JRJoe Rogan48:30

       Yes, I did, yeah. This is, uh, very wild, right? Because that's, uh, what is that-

    8. GHGraham Hancock48:35

       Well, half a million-

    9. JRJoe Rogan48:36

       ... species?

    10. GHGraham Hancock48:36

        (clears throat) Half a million years ago is pre-anatomically modern humans.

    11. JRJoe Rogan48:41

        Right.

    12. GHGraham Hancock48:42

        Uh, the earliest example of anatomically modern humans so far found is about 300,000 years, and that's from, uh, Morocco. Uh, but there's a new- new thinking going on now. What about the Neanderthals, who we know that anatomically modern humans interbred with? Maybe the Neanderthals are just another anatomically modern human form. Maybe they're not... Th- th-

    13. JRJoe Rogan49:04

        Right.

    14. GHGraham Hancock49:04

        They're not a different species. They're homo- ho- homo neanderthalensis as opposed to homo sap- sapiens, but maybe it was all one and there were different forms of human beings at that time.

    15. JRJoe Rogan49:14

        Hmm.

    16. GHGraham Hancock49:14

        If... In that case, these wooden structures would fit within the Neanderthal timeframe.

    17. JRJoe Rogan49:19

        This is that same culture, Jamie, that, uh, Brian was telling us buried their dead in a very sophisticated way, where they had to crawl through these cave pat- cave systems?

    18. GHGraham Hancock49:27

        No, Brian was- Brian was talking about Homo naledi.

    19. JRJoe Rogan49:30

        I think this is Homo naledi.

    20. GHGraham Hancock49:31

        And this is from- this is from South Africa?

    21. JRJoe Rogan49:32

        I think that's what they're talking about. I- I believe that's what they were talking about.

    22. GHGraham Hancock49:37

        Uh, wooden structure from Zambia. It's from Zambia. Ho- ho- ho- homo ho- Homo naledi is in South Africa, and it is fascinating, and Lee Berger, uh, who I mentioned to you-

    23. JRJoe Rogan49:47

        Here it is, Homo na- a s- species similar to Homo naledi.

    24. GHGraham Hancock49:50

        Yeah, uh, might-

    25. JRJoe Rogan49:51

        See, homo... How do you say that word?

    26. GHGraham Hancock49:53

        Homo naledi.

    27. JRJoe Rogan49:54

        Hi- hi- no, the other one. Homo heidelberg-

    28. GHGraham Hancock49:55

        Heidelbergensis. Heidelberg something, some remains found near Heidelberg in Germany, basically.

    29. JRJoe Rogan50:00

        So this is what it says, "We don't know exactly what species made the structure, but Homo..." How do you say it again? Homo hei-

    30. GHGraham Hancock50:06

        Heidelbergensis.
13. 53:15 – 1:11:33

    Egypt’s anomalies: Great Pyramid as a time capsule, ScanPyramids voids, and Sphinx re-carving

    1. GHGraham Hancock53:15

       Archeologists will tell you they could build a Great Pyramid, but I defy them to do that. The Great Pyramid is literally impossible. It's something that doesn't make any sense. It certainly doesn't make sense as the tomb of a megalomaniac pharaoh, uh, which is what we're told it was.

    2. JRJoe Rogan53:29

       Well, it's also sort of the ultimate... I- if you wanted to leave behind evidence of your culture, something that, if there was a cataclysm and people did have to sort of rethink the history of the world, that would be the best thing to leave.

    3. GHGraham Hancock53:45

       Time capsule, yeah.

    4. JRJoe Rogan53:46

       'Cause it's so insanely sophisticated-

    5. GHGraham Hancock53:49

       Hmm.

    6. JRJoe Rogan53:49

       ... that you're forced to sort of reckon with this idea that something might've existed before us.

    7. GHGraham Hancock53:53

       Yeah, definitely, and it incorporates all kinds of interesting math. It incorporates pi, which again is supposed to have been discovered by the Greeks. Uh, it incorporates the dimensions of the Earth on a particular scale.

    8. JRJoe Rogan54:03

       Mm-hmm.

    9. GHGraham Hancock54:04

       There- there- there's a lot about the Great Pyramid which suggests that it was intended to transmit information to the future, and that's one of the reasons why it's so big and so enormous, and why we keep on finding new chambers and passageways inside the Great Pyramid. There's a thing called ScanPyramids which is now going on.... which is using the latest tech, and they've identified a second Grand Gallery above the Grand Gallery. The, the Grand Gallery is one of the wonderful features of the Great Pyramid. It's 30 feet high, 120 feet long, rising up through the center of the pyramid, but now we know there's a second one above it that hasn't been explored yet.

    10. JRJoe Rogan54:42

        Wow.

    11. GHGraham Hancock54:43

        And that's, that's a result of ScanPyramids. There's corridors and passageways that we didn't know were there. So the Great Pyramid is gradually, bit by bit, revealing its secrets, and it's almost as though it was waiting for a time when human beings were ready to receive those s- secrets, and ha- and had the ability to decode them.

    12. JRJoe Rogan55:02

        How do they access the second Grand Gallery?

    13. GHGraham Hancock55:06

        Scanning. It's all remo-

    14. JRJoe Rogan55:07

        I mean humans, how can humans get into it?

    15. GHGraham Hancock55:09

        Well, it could, it could... That's a gre- a very good question. It's there. The question is, at what point was it made? Was it, was it part... It should have been part of the original construction of the Great Pyramid. As they were building the Great Pyramid, they created one Grand Gallery and they created another, and I-

    16. JRJoe Rogan55:25

        Is it the same size?

    17. GHGraham Hancock55:27

        It looks to be the same size, yeah.

    18. JRJoe Rogan55:28

        Wow.

    19. GHGraham Hancock55:28

        From the, from the scanning, which the scanning just shows a, a, a void.

    20. JRJoe Rogan55:32

        Mm-hmm.

    21. GHGraham Hancock55:32

        But I'm informed reliably that the, the recent investigation has identified that void as another Grand Gallery, which is inside the Great Pyramid, and the Grand Gallery is one of the wonders of the world.

    22. JRJoe Rogan55:42

        So it could have artifacts in it? It c-

    23. GHGraham Hancock55:44

        It could have artifacts in it. Same goes for those shafts that cut through the walls of the Queen's Ch- so-called Queen's Chamber and King's Chamber, right? I resist these names that archaeologists have applied to the Great Pyramid. I resist the notion that it was the tomb of Khufu. Uh, I resist the notion that the subterranean chamber, which is 100 feet v- vertically beneath the base of the Great Pyramid was intended to be Khufu's tomb chamber, but then they just changed their minds and abandoned it, and then they built the one that's now called the Queen's Chamber, that was intended to be for Khufu, but they abandoned that as well. Then they went up the Grand Gallery and they created (laughs) the so-called King's Chamber, and because it has a sarcophagus in it, and for no other reason, that is said to have been the original burial place of Khufu. It's not enough evidence, in my view.

    24. JRJoe Rogan56:29

        And the connections to Khufu are from hieroglyphs depicting his vision, that if he uncovered the Sphinx he would become the Pharaoh of Egypt? Isn't there something along those lines?

    25. GHGraham Hancock56:40

        There is a, there is something along those lines, and it's Thutmose the Fourth or the Third, if I remember correctly. In other words, he's a later pharaoh from the time of, uh, of the Old Kingdom, uh, and, and he put between the paws of the Sphinx, a stela, which is called the Dream Stela, and in it he records a dream that he had, that, at that time the Sphinx was buried up to its neck in sand, and the dream was that, uh, that he should clear the Sphinx. The Sphinx requested him or ordered him to free it of sand, uh, and reveal it again in i- in its true form. This was at least, uh, 1,200 years after the Sphinx is supposed to have been built 4,500 years ago.

    26. JRJoe Rogan57:21

        Mm-hmm.

    27. GHGraham Hancock57:22

        But as you know, Robert Schoch and I and, and many others are convinced the Sphinx is much, much older than that, that it goes back 12,000 plus years.

    28. JRJoe Rogan57:29

        And this is based on geological evidence of heavy rainfall, which is another-

    29. GHGraham Hancock57:33

        (clears throat)

    30. JRJoe Rogan57:33

        ... interesting thing about the climate and the environment of that area, that we think of it as being desert, but at one point in time it wasn't.
14. 1:11:33 – 1:17:39

    Dating and fingerprints: carbon dating limits, Gobekli Tepe’s deliberate burial, and Abu Hureyra impact proxies

    1. GHGraham Hancock1:11:33

       And we don't know. The, the, the problem is no written texts have come down to us from that time.

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:11:38

       Right.

    3. GHGraham Hancock1:11:38

       So everything, in a sense, is speculation. What isn't speculation is the dating. Uh, I have grave doubts about carbon dating in many cases. Uh, because carbon dating doesn't date stone. It dates organic materials. Uh, so the notion that you can date a megalithic site with carbon dating is questionable right away. But what tends to be done is that you look for a piece of organic material that is so associated with the megalith you want to date that you can say or propose that they come from the same period of time.

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:12:12

       Hmm.

    5. GHGraham Hancock1:12:12

       I have that problem with the huge Moai statues in Easter Island. They're not carbon dated. What's carbon dated is the platforms they stand on, and there's a lot to suggest that those platforms are much later than the original statues, and the statues were re-erected on those, on, on those platforms. In the case of Gobekli Tepe ...... one of the very special things about it is that it was deliberately buried. They ran that site for about a thousand years, from 11,600 to, say, 10,600 years ago, and then they closed it down. And they went to great effort to fill up all the enclosures with rubble and to create a hill over the top of it. Uh, and that's why Gobeklitepe then remained untouched for the next 10,000 years. There's no danger of contamination with younger carbon from a later culture.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:12:59

       Hmm.

    7. GHGraham Hancock1:13:00

       The fact that they found carbon in enclosure 40, i- i- in, in enclosure D, right by, uh, pillar 43, dated to 11,600 years ago does firmly connect that, that place to 11,600 years ago. There are later dates from Gobeklitepe. It wasn't all built in one go, but it stopped around a thousand or maybe 1,200 years after it started, as though they'd, as though they'd achieved what they wanted to achieve. The population had all become agriculturalists. We move on into the Holocene, into the modern age, and it's that moment of transition following an enormous cataclysm that really fascinates me.

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:13:38

       So if they attribute the constellations to ancient Greece, what do they say about the clay tablets from Sumer?

    9. GHGraham Hancock1:13:48

       Um, I've not seen any archeologist who attributes knowledge of the constellations to, to the ancient Sumerians.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:13:53

        But, but if we c-

    11. GHGraham Hancock1:13:54

        That's a bit too late.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:13:54

        Can you pull that image up?

    13. GHGraham Hancock1:13:54

        The Babylonians maybe.

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:13:56

        Pull that image up because tha- that, this image has always been wild to me.

    15. GHGraham Hancock1:13:59

        Let's have a look.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:13:59

        Because it kind of shows a s- a sun in the center, and then it shows all of the planets in our solar system in relatively the correct sizes.

    17. GHGraham Hancock1:14:11

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:14:12

        Relatively.

    19. GHGraham Hancock1:14:13

        I wouldn't be surprised by that. I th-

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:14:14

        In terms of what's the bigger one, what's the smaller one.

    21. GHGraham Hancock1:14:17

        I think the ancients had, uh, or certain peoples amongst the ancients did have a very good idea about our solar system, and about the dimensions of the Earth, uh, and about the other planets, uh, in our solar system. Again, this is something that archeology has dismissed, but I think it's a possibility that's worthy of inquiry.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:14:35

        It's not this one, right? Um, no, it's not that one. That's, that's a different one.

    23. GHGraham Hancock1:14:39

        Is it?

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:14:39

        It's the... Yeah, that's it. That's it.

    25. GHGraham Hancock1:14:41

        There we go.

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:14:41

        There it is.

    27. GHGraham Hancock1:14:42

        There we go. The sun-

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:14:42

        So there's the sun, and it's surrounded by the planets that we're aware of.

    29. GHGraham Hancock1:14:47

        Yeah, it's k- kind of hard to interpret that any other way, isn't it? Uh-

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:14:50

        I mean, it seems, it seems like that's what it is.
15. 1:17:39 – 1:29:51

    From ancient catastrophes to modern ones: societal fragility, myths as data, and the resistance problem

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:17:39

       It's fascinating to me how when you go to these sites and you see these, uh, the, where, where these ancient structures existed and imagine the climate and what a major factor that plays in what human beings do-

    2. GHGraham Hancock1:17:54

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:17:55

       ... and what they're able to do, whether they're able to thrive-

    4. GHGraham Hancock1:17:57

       Mm-hmm.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:17:57

       ... because there's a, an abundance of resources. And then it seems those are the places where they create these incredible structures-

Episode duration: 3:14:25