The Joe Rogan ExperienceJoe Rogan Experience #2062 - Will & Jenni Harris
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,054 words- 0:00 – 1:27
Soil in the studio: side-by-side proof of regenerative vs. industrial land
- JHJenni Harris
(drumming music plays) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.
- WHWill Harris
The Joe Rogan Experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music plays) There we go. Welcome back, Will. How are you, sir?
- WHWill Harris
Good. Thank you for having me.
- JRJoe Rogan
Good. Hey, please introduce the world to your daughter.
- WHWill Harris
Good. My middle daughter, uh, Jenny Harris, who is, uh, used to work for me but now I work for her.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JHJenni Harris
Get used to it. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
That's gotta be interesting.
- JHJenni Harris
Well, we'll tell you about it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Please do. And you guys are the first people to ever bring dirt to the studio, so I wanna thank you for that. So-
- WHWill Harris
You're more than welcome.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) So here is, uh, your soil (door knocks) and, uh, compared to industrial, uh, commodity... What does this say?
- WHWill Harris
Dirt.
- JRJoe Rogan
Row crop. So you can see the difference in the d- I mean, I don't know if you guys can see it very clearly in the photogra- in the video, but one of 'em is very light colored and the other one looks rich and dark and it's filled with twigs and all sorts of biological material-
- JHJenni Harris
There's probably some worms in there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Probably. And this looks like what I'd like to grow something on, whereas this looks like, uh, some stuff that, uh, blows in the wind when it gets dry out.
- JHJenni Harris
I'm gonna show you that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, please do.
- WHWill Harris
And, and they came from side by side, one side of the fence versus the other side of the fence.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- WHWill Harris
And there's no difference other than the way they've been managed over the last 20 years.
- 1:27 – 6:44
Runoff, regulation gaps, and downstream collapse (Apalachicola Bay oysters)
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. And, uh, we've showed many times that video of the... Was it a creek or a river near your house?
- WHWill Harris
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Where the runoff from their farm is just polluting the water. I mean, a very clear line. I mean, the difference-
- JHJenni Harris
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... is so stark. It's so stark. And how is that legal, by the way?
- WHWill Harris
So let me tell you what you see in there. So the, uh, the brown water is coming off my farm. The red water is coming under the road. There's a culvert there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JHJenni Harris
There's, there's a video of that.
- WHWill Harris
Yeah.
- JHJenni Harris
We can look at it next.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Yeah. We played that video many, many times, uh, just to show people the difference between a regenerative farm and an industrial farm.
- WHWill Harris
Is that, is that me or my daddy? Damn, he looks old.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JHJenni Harris
Look at those arms.
- WHWill Harris
Wow. (whistles) Scale. Look at me scale, scaling like a fish.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) So, you know, this is... I- it's just, it's just strange that it's legal to just have the runoff pollute the rivers. That it seems like someone would see that and say, "Well, the downstream effects of this have to be pretty substantial and pretty detrimental to the fish, to every other piece of land that's downriver that's gonna encounter all this fertici- fer- fertilizer, and pesticide, and herbicides. And this has to be terrible."
- WHWill Harris
Well, (clears throat) if it was a construction site, it would have to be under what they call SWIT. That's an acronym for something, storm water, something, something.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- WHWill Harris
And, and you- they wouldn't allow that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- WHWill Harris
But agricultural land is not under SWIT.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm2. Well, that's-
- JHJenni Harris
In fact, it's, it's not even under SWIT. That's a subsidized production system-
- WHWill Harris
Yeah.
- JHJenni Harris
... by the government. So it's not only okay or, uh, acceptable, you know, it's, it's, it's the status quo.
- JRJoe Rogan
So they've just accepted a certain amount of pollution?
- WHWill Harris
Well, I, I guess it would be a nearly unlimited amount of solution because nobody checks it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Nobody checks the water? Nobody checks to see what the results are?
- WHWill Harris
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which is insane. I mean, what is it like downstream? What, what is downstream of that?
- 6:44 – 10:17
Politics, lobbying, and the revolving door in agriculture oversight
- WHWill Harris
Okay. So I think, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm certainly not answering for that whole, uh, kind of, politically motivated question, but you gotta remember that the politicians who control the bureaucrats are controlled by pesticide companies and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- WHWill Harris
... and ƒ- agricultural companies, and there's just a lot of money involved.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- WHWill Harris
And, you know, if I were, uh, a politician running for office and begging for funding, I probably wouldn't wanna be the guy that opened that can of worms.
- JRJoe Rogan
D- it seems like it all boils down to that, money and politics. If we could take money out of politics, we could make it so that no one can donate, other than individuals in a very limited amount of money, we could change everything.
- WHWill Harris
I th- I, I think so.
- JRJoe Rogan
We could change everything. It's such a dirty system, and it allows things like this to happen. But then the question is, you explained how you changed your farm from an industrial farm to a regenerative farm, and that it took apro- it was approximately 20 years. Is that what you said?
- WHWill Harris
We've ... Yes. Well, I mean, the, uh, we- when you start that process, moving from an industrial, uh, farm to, to what we're the regenerative farm that we run today, coming out of the chute, you see a decline in production, and it lasts for a period of time, three years, four years or something. Then you see a very gradual increase until it gets back to where ours is today. And where ours is today is, is not as high yielding as if we used all the crop inputs.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- WHWill Harris
But it's approaching that because we don't have to buy the crop inputs, so I think it's a better, it's better for us. And we really need it.
- JHJenni Harris
Certainly, a more r- resilient system.
- WHWill Harris
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
And if there was legal, or at least some sort of financial repercussions that were enacted on the farm itself for the pollution, it would seem like that would balance itself out. Like, if someone did the correct thing and said, "Hey, you guys are ruining the Earth itself with this just so you can make a little more money," which is so crazy that that's allowed, and not just allowed, but subsidized.
- WHWill Harris
Well, uh, you know, the farmers are making a little more money. You're right. The big multinational corporations are making a hell of a lot more money 'cause they're pr- they're manufacturing these products.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- WHWill Harris
And they're handling these huge quantities of agricultural production-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- WHWill Harris
... and turning out this industrial food that we all eat. So the, the amount of money is incredible. And, don't forget, I, I, I think I might have mentioned to you when I spoke to you before, that it's a way of life that senior bureaucrats go to work for the big ag companies.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- WHWill Harris
So if you're a, a, a very senior person in DC in, uh, Department of Ag, and probably other dep- departments, and you're getting close to retirement, you can get, you can ... If you've been a good boy, you can retire and get a job making twice what you were making with the government.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- WHWill Harris
If you're not a good boy, just retired.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. Just like the FDA and the pharmaceutical drug companies.
- WHWill Harris
Pr- Probably.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's the same deal. It's, it should be illegal.
- 10:17 – 13:17
Why White Oak Pastures vertically integrated—and what it means for rural wealth
- JHJenni Harris
Well, and farmers aren't ... I, I, I'll say this. Farmers are less and less raising food and raising foodlike products. You know, there is ... A statistic said that farmers only get 14 cents of every food dollar that's spent. And you think about, wow, the, the person who, you know, cultivates the land, plants the seed, harvests the crops, you know, they get 14 cents of every dollar? And the truth is, the food production system has become s- such a long way from a farmer and a consumer, there's gotta be room for, you know, distribution and manufacturing and logistics and whatever else. A dollar, you know, the food dollar is still there. It's just the farmer's getting less and less of it, because food, more and more, looks less and less like food.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- WHWill Harris
She, she's, she's right. But in our case, we get 100 cents of every dollar, but we still don't have much money. We still don't make a lot of money. We get 100 cents, not 14, but then we cover all these costs that, in the industrial system, is just ... The farm is just the production arm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- JHJenni Harris
Well, and ours is different because we took 100% responsibility of that food product. You know, so we raise, we slaughter, we butcher, we package, and we distribute. So we take, we take account for all of those parts in the food production system, so that we can keep that whole dollar. Now, it's not profit, because we have to pay for those things, but, uh, the whole dollar stays in Bluffton.
- WHWill Harris
And that's, and that's what's the impo- important part. You know, Clay County, Georgia, where Bluffton is, was the poorest county in the United States of America in 2020. Number one. Not just Georgia, in the whole country. And when that whole dollar stays in Clay County, Georgia-... uh, it- it- it's- it's the- it's beginning to correct that. That- that results because only 14 cents stays there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm. That's the result. And it seems like the problem is so complicated now because of fast food chains and because of big cities that absolutely don't grow anything.
- WHWill Harris
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
That w- when you're getting food, you have to get food at scale. You have to get massive amounts of food. Like, say if you're living in, um, California, if you're living in Los Angeles, which is just an insanely overpopulated place, and you wanna get beef, especially if you wanna get a cheeseburger from Jack in the Box or something like that, I don't mean to pick on Jack in the Box, Burger King, whatever, wh- where's that meat coming from? It's not, it's not grown from local cows. There are no local cows.
- WHWill Harris
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And you have to go pretty far out of town to find a farm that raises cows. I mean, you can go, like, an hour and a half out of town and find some cows.
- WHWill Harris
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
But that's not gonna feed everybody.
- WHWill Harris
It won't.
- JRJoe Rogan
They'll all be gone. There's not enough cows.
- WHWill Harris
A lot of it comes from Australia and New Zealand-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- WHWill Harris
... and, uh, Uruguay, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- WHWill Harris
A lot of- a lot of- a lot of beef's imported.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, and a lot of elk. A lot of elk ... Oft- if you buy elk at a restaurant, most likely, you're getting it from New Zealand.
- 13:17 – 21:14
Grass-fed demand meets imports—and the ‘Product of USA’ labeling loophole
- JHJenni Harris
I got a story about- about imports that I wanna say. This is really important. So 25 years ago, when Dad, uh, decided to change the way we farmed, he knew that in order to put all the cost that it was gonna take to raise animals differently, he had to find a consumer that would pay for that. And so, he went, you know, looking for customers, and Publix Super Market was, you know, one of the first ones, Whole Foods very quickly after. Um, and, you know, that- that worked out, uh, really well, but the- the- the- the- the point I wanna get to is that when Dad started selling beef, grass-fed beef, to those two grocers, the first pound of American grass-fed beef to be marketed as American grass-fed beef came from White Oak Pastures, and that was not a sustainable option. We- we can't feed the world. We don't wanna feed the world. But fast-forward 20 years, and over 85% of the grass-fed beef in, uh, you know, the American market is imported product, not raised in America.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- JHJenni Harris
Isn't that nuts?
- JRJoe Rogan
Totally nuts.
- JHJenni Harris
To, in 20 years, we've- we've gone from being a very early innovator to, you know, uh, just a mere meager portion of- of 15%.
- WHWill Harris
Well, that- that's- that's true, but it's not the worst part. The worst part is that imported beef is legally labeled Product of the USA.
- JRJoe Rogan
How's that?
- WHWill Harris
If value is added in this country, it's a product of the USA.
- JRJoe Rogan
What? (laughs)
- JHJenni Harris
(laughs)
- WHWill Harris
And we- and we compete with, we compete with it every day.
- JRJoe Rogan
How do they add value?
- JHJenni Harris
Ooh. Ooh. Go ahead. No, you go. This is good.
- WHWill Harris
Uh, you know, if you, if they grind it, slice it, cut it, package it, label it-
- JHJenni Harris
Re-box it.
- WHWill Harris
... transport it, but the animal, make- make no mistake, the animal was born, raised, and slaughtered in Uruguay, uh, Australia, New Zealand, or tw- or 20 other countries.
- JHJenni Harris
Lithuania.
- WHWill Harris
(laughs) Lithuania.
- JHJenni Harris
Croatia.
- JRJoe Rogan
The United States imports beef from places like Australia, Canada, and much of Latin America. It then runs that beef through USDA inspection, and if it passes, sticks a label on it that reads, "Product of the USA." How dare you?
- JHJenni Harris
But honestly-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's so dirty.
- JHJenni Harris
... the erosion of this type of farming in America, you know, is- is completely being exported to another country, because we're importing all of this product, and then due to loop- loopholes in labeling, intentionally fraudulent labeling even, uh, selling it as product of the USA.
- JRJoe Rogan
Then we have to consider, if everybody's really concerned about climate change and CO2 output, think about the amount of freight-
- JHJenni Harris
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... just these massive boats that are making their way across the st- Did you- did you see this thing they did recently? I was, uh, reading this, uh, uh, article, and I was actually listening to a podcast, that's what it was initially, but the podcast was, um, about how they changed, I guess it wa- I don't know what governing body changed the emission standards for these, uh, gigantic freight ship- ships, and when they changed the emission standards, what they found was when they were releasing less pollution into the air, it was doing less of a job of blocking the sun, so the ocean water was getting warmer quicker than they anticipated. So, it is having the opposite effect. So, they're trying to come up with different methods to mitigate that now, and some of the methods are spraying chemicals in the sky.
- JHJenni Harris
Oh.
- JRJoe Rogan
Some of the methods are spraying ocean water in the sky, which sounds much more natural, you know, just taking some sort of machine, but then again, what's powering that machine? How is that gonna work? What is- what are we doing? Instead of just growing it here.
- JHJenni Harris
(laughs) I mean, should we really be spraying sea water into the atmosphere? Do we really have to do that?
- JRJoe Rogan
No, but I mean, it's just water. That- that doesn't bother me. That seems like the most organic solution. You're gonna take sea water, blow it in, but who knows? I mean, think about all the pollution that's in the sea now and microplastics in the sea. Does that spray into the atmosphere and that get into people's lungs now and cause a host of new autoimmune issues and cardiovascular issue- Who- who knows? It's so crazy that we're doing it this way.
- 21:14 – 24:32
How (and why) Will quit the industrial model: pain, tradeoffs, and recovery
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. And, uh, thank you for that. What, what led to this decision, the initial decision to change your farm from an industrial farm to a regenerative farm? And what... I mean, it had to, there had to be a lot of soul-searching involved in that kind of a decision because it's not an easy one, and it probably cost a lot of money, and it was probably quite a headache.
- WHWill Harris
Oh, oh, it, it was all those things. And to be real honest with you, I, I went into it with a little bit of naivety. I th- I didn't think it was going to be as big a deal as it was, but it was. Uh, you know, I was a very industrial cattleman for 20 years, graduated from the University of Georgia with a degree in animal science and came home and put it to work. My dad had been a very industrial producer using all the tools. I was... And I had a lot of pride in my knowledge and understanding of how to raise cattle industrially, monoculture of cattle at that time. And I, uh, I, I think probably because I was, uh, an ab- an abuser. I, I, I used... If it said use a little bit, I used it a lot. And I just came to see the unintended consequences of that industrial system more clearly probably than people that were playing closer to the rules.
- JHJenni Harris
Mm.
- WHWill Harris
And I just thought I didn't wanna do it anymore. And I did a... I, I did not do a good job planning an alternative production program. I just quit using stuff, you know. I quit using hormone implants and subtherapeutic antibiotics and bad feed stuffs like chicken manure. I quit, uh, using chemical fertilizer. I quit using pesticides. And it was, it was very expensive for a while and hurt... It was pain- eh- eh- economically painful, but we survived it. And, uh, from day one, I enjoyed it better, but from day one, I made less money till I lost money. But then thank goodness, you know, grass-fed beef became a thing, and it wasn't being imported, so we became profitable again.
- JRJoe Rogan
Since you've gone public with... I found, uh, about you from Fox.
- WHWill Harris
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
I was watching television, and you were doing this interview, and we talked about the last time you were here, and this guy was rushing you. I enjoy the way you talk, but you have a way of talking that's very deliberate and clear, and it takes a little time. And this guy was just rushing you along and rushing you along. And, uh, I immediately reached out to my booking guy and said, "Let's get that guy. I wanna, I wanna hear him talk." Just like lay it out, like give him all the time in the world to lay it out. And I'm really glad you did. But, uh, from the time that you went public, have you seen more of a demand for your product and for what you're doing?
- WHWill Harris
I have, but it's been filled by imported product.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- JHJenni Harris
Mm.
- WHWill Harris
The, the...
- JRJoe Rogan
This, this whole thing that we're talking about.
- WHWill Harris
Grass-fed, yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- WHWill Harris
Grass-fed beef, pastured poultry, all these, uh, more naturally grown, uh-... uh, meats and other poultry and, and vegeta- all of it, is, is, is, is catching traction. But big food has figured out a way to, to take, cash in on it.
- 24:32 – 27:28
Greenwashing terms like ‘free-range’ and why consumers must verify sources
- JHJenni Harris
I can give a good example of that.
- WHWill Harris
Mm.
- JHJenni Harris
So, uh, the word free-range. So free-range, by definition, so, you know, you would see a, a brand with a, a grassy knoll and a red barn and a white fence and, you know, it would say, "Free-range." So free-range by definition is just access to the outdoors via a concrete pad or whatever. It's not actually pasture-raised poultry, it's just maybe a little different than commodity in-the-house poultry. But it's at a fraction of the price. You know, true pastured poultry might cost 200% or 300% more than commodity poultry. And so you have these consumers who are very busy, you know, they don't have time to, to learn the nuances and read and research like, you know, you have done and we obviously do. And so they see pastured poultry for $6 a pound or free-range poultry for $3 or $4 a pound. W- you know, h- how, how could you expect for them to pay 50% more, 75% or, or 100% more for something that is, is so loosely defined, and due to labeling pretty, pretty, uh, pretty misrepresentative of the way it's actually raised.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, free-range sounds like you just let them out of the chicken coop and they wander around.
- JHJenni Harris
Like your wife-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JHJenni Harris
... holding a bird.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, like my yard.
- JHJenni Harris
That's it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, yeah. There's free-range chickens in my yard right now, that's why Marshall's here. (laughs)
- JHJenni Harris
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Marshall doesn't get along with chickens.
- JHJenni Harris
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
We talked about that earlier. But it, this, this is deceptive. I mean, and it's, it's unfortunate that they're allowed to use those loopholes and that should be, that should be more clearly defined. I mean, if you would rather save money, and I understand that, if someone's on a budget, you wanna save money, get, I get it 100%. But I've gotten eggs from the grocery store that say free-range and I get it and I crack it open and it is that, that light yellow bullshit yolk that I know, I know that chicken has just been s- eating feed-
- JHJenni Harris
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... it's not eating grass, it's not eating bugs, it's not doing things that chickens do. And when you get a chicken that is doing things that chickens do, you get that dark orange yolk.
- JHJenni Harris
Blood yolk.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's so dark and it tastes so much better. It's so much better for you, so much more nutrient-dense, and it's what a chicken egg is supposed to be.
- WHWill Harris
And sadly, I don't think the consumers will ever really get what they're looking for unless they know exactly who they're buying it from.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- WHWill Harris
It, it's, it's just so easy to copy these, uh, embrace these new... I mean, right now we're talking about regenerative. Well, I mean, everybody, now everybody's got regenerative. You know, it's, it's, it's too easy to label it and it's too hard for really big companies to produce it, so it puts the onus on the consumer-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- WHWill Harris
... to know who they're buying from.
- 27:28 – 38:16
Can regenerative agriculture feed everyone? Hidden costs, water, and soil lifespan
- JRJoe Rogan
But that, that bring me, brings me back to the initial question, is it even possible to use regenerative farming the way you folks have your farm and feed everybody? I mean, can you, can you feed, can you s- sell to McDonald's? I mean, is it even possible? I mean, how much beef do they use in a day? It has to be insane.
- WHWill Harris
Well, the answer is no, we can't, we can't sell to McDonald's. We couldn't start to scratch the surface. And I don't know the answer, but I'll say this, when you say, uh, "C- can we produce enough food like that?" Can the industry produce enough food like that without doing such extraordinary damage? Uh, you know, we're gonna pay for this.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- WHWill Harris
You know, the, the, this stuff is so cheap not because it's really being produced that cheap, it's because expenses are thrown off and not borne by the producer or the company buying it.
- JHJenni Harris
Like what? Give- give- give great...
- WHWill Harris
The Dead-
- JHJenni Harris
... great example.
- WHWill Harris
The Dead Zone in the, in the Gulf would be a, a great example.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's a great example, because, I mean, think about the extraordinary amount of money it would take to take the Gulf and bring it back to pristine condition.
- JHJenni Harris
Or wildfires. How, how much do we pay every year to put out wildfires out west?
- WHWill Harris
Fire, f- f- fires. That soil right there, you know, the, the experts tell us that there's, like, how many years left?
- JHJenni Harris
60, but that was like three years ago, so 57.
- WHWill Harris
You know, who, who, who knows, but there, even the experts tell us there's a finite life left in that degraded soil. This beautiful organic soil is perpetual.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- WHWill Harris
It'll last forever.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- WHWill Harris
Now, that's a cost and it has a finite, uh, period of time, and I'm just not sure how this is all gonna work out. The water in the ground, you know, so much of these crops irrigated. So you, I told you that, uh, uh, one item, the degraded soil is a half percent organic matter, the, the beautiful soil is over 5% organic matter. 1% organic matter will absorb a one-inch rainfall. So the degraded soil will only absorb half an inch of rainfall, the beautiful organic soil will absorb a five-inch rainfall. So it requires a tremendous amount of irrigation for the degraded soil to make it. Well, we got problems with water in the ground even in the Southeast, and certainly in the West. So this, all of these resources we're just using up and using up and u- it's pissing in your britches to stay warm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm. Pissing in your britches to stay warm is-
- JHJenni Harris
It's a good short-term strategy-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JHJenni Harris
... but long term?
- JRJoe Rogan
It's- (laughs)
- JHJenni Harris
Not what you want to do.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's a great way to put it. I love it. I'm gonna use that one. Pissing in your britches to stay warm. (laughs) ... yeah, it's, uh, it's really sad. And it's, it's weird how we, uh, haven't addressed this, and how this is just something that just keeps going, and going primarily because of the amount of money that's involved, and the amount of money these companies are making by doing things the way they're doing it right now, and the fact that it's subsidized.
- WHWill Harris
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, it's, it's dirty business. And it's, uh ... There, um, there's an ancient soil in the Amazon called terra preta. Have you guys heard about this?
- JHJenni Harris
Well, I watched the Graham Hancock episode.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes, fascinating. So, uh, thousands and thousands of years ago, the, the indigenous people of the Amazon figured out a way to create this regenerative soil. And it i- it's, uh, it, it, it's composed of biological material, carbon, all sorts of different things. They don't exactly know how they made it, and they don't know how to recreate it, but this is a self-sustaining soil. And when you grow in it, it, it acts like this soil that you folks have. And these people that lived thousands of years ago figured out how to way, to make this sustainable soil. It just seems like that is something, if there's so much money involved in all this, that's something that someone would be able to figure out how to recreate today. This is the terra preta. This is the stuff that exists. So on the left, you see the actual soil, what it looks like before it's, before it's treated. That terra preta on the right is entirely manmade, and entirely manmade from an unknown origin. I mean, we know the folks, the people that live there, they're the ones who did it, but we don't know how they did it. And wh- what we do know is that you can grow on that indefinitely. You could just keep going. They, they're calling it biochar, terra preta, but it's a phenomenal soil for growing crops on and for growing things on. And it seems like that should be something that someone should invest in, some sort of research. I mean, look, if they figured out how to do it thousands of years ago, and we assume that they didn't have computers and AI and oh, all the different advantages that we have in terms of technology and knowledge, figure it out. Someone ... I mean, there should be some sort of a large-scale project if we're really 57 years left of topsoil in the American farmlands due to monocrop agriculture and industrial farming. It seems like they should be able to figure out a way to do that.
- WHWill Harris
Actually, that's our farm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 38:16 – 51:55
Beyond carbon: nature’s interlocking cycles, monocultures, and livestock’s role
- JHJenni Harris
You know, so it's- it's not just that consumers are making arguably, uh, wrong choices, but uninformed choices for the food that they eat, but additionally, you know, we're big cycles of nature people. We believe that in order to be good stewards of land, all of nature's cycles need to be functioning, and when they do, they create an abundance, and that abundance is enjoyed, uh, by you and I, uh, in the form of meat and vegetables and, you know, whatever else. And there's been so much intense focus on the carbon cycle, you think about what you hear from the media, it's carbon, carbon, carbon, carbon, that in reality all of nature's cycles are broken. You know, what about the- the water cycle or the mineral cycle or the grazing cycle? These are- you know, you can't just work on one cycle, and so there's just so much misinformation and so much, uh, so much of a spotlight on certain things, when in reality it's so much broader than that, and it's not- it's not hard, it's just they're not telling the complete story.
- WHWill Harris
I- I- I agree with that fully, and I th- I don't think that's an accident. I think that the carbon cycle gets all the press because that's the one that somebody can make some money fixing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm. I- I agree with you. Yeah, and that's unfortunate that this whole green thing has become a political movement, and it's been a political movement that's hijacked by industry, and they are trying to enforce mandates that will allow them to make extreme amounts of profit and also to control people and to control their choices.
- WHWill Harris
Yeah, yeah, the- all you read is that, uh, uh, cattle are- are great contributors to global warming, greenhouse gases, and all that, and we talked about it before, there's a- a- a s- scientific study, very expensive scientific study, they call it a lifecycle analysis, on our website that shows that we're actually sequestering more carbon in our cattle side of our business than we're putting up. So, you know, it's-
- JRJoe Rogan
Which makes sense.
- WHWill Harris
Yeah, that's the way it- uh- so-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's the way it's supposed to be.
- WHWill Harris
So one of the differences in those two soils, in the ones you showed and the one that you talked about in South America, there's carbon and- and micro- microscopic life in that soil.
- JHJenni Harris
Which is what makes it dark versus the other one.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- WHWill Harris
So, uh, you know, I- and the way you build those carbon-rich soils is through proper livestock interaction. That's the way the eight-foot deep soils in the, uh, Great Plains came about was those huge herds of buffalo going across.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- WHWill Harris
And it's the reason that those two soils look so much different and the one that you showed- Jamey showed on the board there. So, you know, we- I think we know a lot more about how to fix the problem than we acknowledge, but it's just going to be so expensive, especially for big food, big ag, big take.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then ultimately also for the consumer-
- WHWill Harris
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... 'cause if McDonald's went purely to regenerative agriculture, if they had a large scale effort to eliminate industrial farming and get all of their food through regenerative agriculture, there's not a chance in hell they're gonna charge 99 cents for a cheeseburger.
- WHWill Harris
You know, and I'm not opposed to- to there being chains like McDonald's, but I just don't know how they work with any sort of local food movement. I just don't know how you make that work.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. And then how do you make it so- I mean, there's a large amount of people in this country that primarily eat fast food, unfortunately. That's- that's where they get their calories from, and you see it because of the health consequences. I mean, it's- it's a gigantic issue in this country that we- if you look at the human beings... I'm sure you've seen these, uh, photographs of people on the beach in the- the 1950s and '60s versus 2023. 2023 is like- it's- it's- it's insane how obese everybody is, and that's not an accident.
- WHWill Harris
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's a direct result of the- the way we eat and what we eat and where it comes from.
- WHWill Harris
It's the same with our animals. You know, we-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- WHWill Harris
... uh, uh, you know, the- the goal in a feed lot animal is to-... blow 'em up fast and quick with cheap food. That's what we do to our people too.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Yeah, that is what we do to 'em. Yeah.
- JHJenni Harris
Well, and in, in marketing, you know, we create our own customers. You know, those people who suffer from obesity, and sedentary lifestyles that have diseases and whatever else, then we get to sell them medicine.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- JHJenni Harris
And then the medicine's called s- side effects, which then we treat with more medicine.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JHJenni Harris
So, it's, uh... so I'm the director of marketing, and one thing that I love is, you know, is just good old-fashioned marketing, and reoccurring business, and returning orders, and, you know, a-all those things. I see how that works. You know, the very idea that these lifestyles create a certain, you know, a certain issue, which are then prescribed with certain medicines that then create more issues, that we treat with more medicines. What a genius plan.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. (laughs)
- 51:55 – 59:39
Food consolidation and CAFO scale: Tyson numbers, waste lagoons, and fragility
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, you were originally brought, uh, onto that Fox News show because they were, they were trying to figure out what a farmer thinks about Bill Gates buying up farmland.
- WHWill Harris
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, Bill Gat- Gates, who's, uh, famously said that everyone's gotta stop eating meat and eat these bullshit fake meat versions, these plant-based meats. So, there's 25,000 factory farms. Factory farms continue to take over the agricultural landscape of the United States. There are currently 1.6 billion animals on our nation's 25,000 factory farms, which makes sense. I mean, if you, you just, you know, go to Arby's. Where's that food coming from?
- JHJenni Harris
Well, and you know, the... And even... So, Jamie, you should google this, but when we talk about that, um, the centralization of the meat industry is even more stark. So, what is it? Four, four, um, maybe four meat processors in... At least with beef, occupy over 80% of the nation's beef supply.
- WHWill Harris
Phew. Yeah.
- JHJenni Harris
Four.
- WHWill Harris
J- Jenny just gave me this before we came in here, but it's, uh... This is in 2023. United... The United States has imported 956 million pounds of beef so far in 2023.
- JHJenni Harris
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- WHWill Harris
That's imported beef.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- JHJenni Harris
That's crazy. Jamie, will you pull up that, um... I think I named it, like, Food Consolidation or something.
- JRJoe Rogan
I bet most people have no idea. I bet most people listening to this are blown away by that number. That most people would... If you asked the average person on the street, "How much meat do you think is imported from other countries? Beef?" They would probably say, "N- none." (laughs) No, they wouldn't even think of it.
- JHJenni Harris
No.
- WHWill Harris
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Especially if you get to label it a product of the USA.
- WHWill Harris
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which is so dirty.
- JHJenni Harris
Yeah. You... And, and that's... You know, consumers believe... They have the impression of choice. They don't actually have choice. The, the image that Jamie's gonna show us-
- JRJoe Rogan
I'm just trying to find a cleaner one. It's just a little blurry, but...
- JHJenni Harris
Oh, good. Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay. Here it is.
- JHJenni Harris
Uh, s- So, look at all these brands that are owned by this, you know, ten or so parent companies.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's crazy.
- JHJenni Harris
So, you know, consumers have the im- im- uh, you know, the impression that there is choice, but truly there is no choice. The same is true with, with meat. I think on Tyson's website, it has... Uh, and I gave it to Jamie, but one in every five pounds of meat that's consumed in America is a Tyson product.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- JHJenni Harris
Whoa.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- JHJenni Harris
You know, so we talk about centralized food, we talk about food security. Do we really want a global food supply? And the answer is yes or no, but with regards to f- uh, fragility in food, think about COVID, uh, and the effects of, of what it did to the grocery store. There we go.
- JRJoe Rogan
One in five pounds of chicken, beef, and pork in the US is produced by Tyson Foods. (whistles) Wow.
- 59:39 – 1:20:59
Health effects of industrial food: preserved burgers, seed oils, and mistrusted science
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. For the amount of calories, uh, and that- and that is also reflected in the health consequences of impoverished people. If you look at people that are poor that rely upon this kind of food all the time, those are the people that have the worst health outcomes, because they're eating stuff that's- doesn't have any nutrients in it, it's terrible for you, it's filled with seed oils and bullshit and preservatives and... I'm sure you've seen those, um, uh, they- they've done these, uh, little tests where they've taken a McDonald's cheeseburger and just sit it on a shelf-
- WHWill Harris
Yeah.
- JHJenni Harris
Oh, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... for, like, weeks and nothing happens to it.
- WHWill Harris
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You could probably eat it, which is so insane.
- JHJenni Harris
That's crazy.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, you could sit it for weeks.
- WHWill Harris
But, you know, these companies, as bad as this is, these companies have done what the public told them to do. The public has said, "We want food cheaper, cheaper, cheaper, cheaper, cheaper."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JHJenni Harris
Quicker.
- JRJoe Rogan
And chea-
- JVJamie Vernon
Yeah.
- JHJenni Harris
Consistent.
- WHWill Harris
... che- and quicker. And- and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- WHWill Harris
... you know- you know how you get cheaper and quicker.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay, this is exactly the same after five years.
- JHJenni Harris
Oh (laughs) .
- JRJoe Rogan
Five years.
- WHWill Harris
Wow.
- JHJenni Harris
Way to go, Jamie.
- JRJoe Rogan
That is wild.
- WHWill Harris
It doesn't look that bad.
- JHJenni Harris
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
That is crazy.
- JHJenni Harris
Stick a fork in me, I'm done.
- WHWill Harris
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.So, Megan wants to find out whether the cheeseburger will stay the same after another five years. (laughs) So, I bet it will.
- JHJenni Harris
(laughs)
- 1:20:59 – 1:22:53
Working with nature on the farm: predators, ‘nature’s tithe,’ and training new farmers
- JHJenni Harris
You know, one thing that I'll say is that, it has been so, uh, interesting to watch nature balance itself. And the best example that we have of that is that, you know, we evolved as cattle people. You know, the- the first generation, you know, had multi-species and, you know, continued. And then we became a monoculture of cattle. And, uh, you know, around 2012, we started diversifying again. The first non-cattle specie that we introduced at White Oak Pastures was poultry. And we- we got good at raising them. And the way we insisted on raising poultry, like all the rest of the species, is in an environment where they can express their instinctive behavior. So, cattle were meant to roam and graze. Hogs were meant to root and wallow. Chickens were meant to peck and scratch. So, our chickens were outside, unconfined, unrestricted. You know, they could walk to Atlanta if they wanted to. Um, and shortly after we turned the chickens loose out on pasture, we noticed, um, maybe around 2013, um, a few bald eagles settled in. And, you know, that's, "Oh, come, come look. This is awesome." You know, mating pair. It was really neat. We were proud of them. You know, how American can you be?
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JHJenni Harris
You know, I mean, this is great. And then the... You know, they're migratory birds, so they left. And the next year, there were probably eight or something.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- JHJenni Harris
And it was like, "Man, that's- that's really cool." You know, they- they went and had such a great time here. They told their friends and, you know, brought more back. This is great. And then, you know, eight left, they migrated away and, you know, 20 came. And the next year, even more. And I think at one point there were, uh, single sightings, 84 bald eagles at White Oak Pastures at one time.
Episode duration: 2:02:19
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