Joe Rogan Experience #2092 - Mariana van Zeller

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast,…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. NANarrator0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music) Hello.

   4. MZMariana van Zeller0:13

      Hi.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      Good to see you my friend. How's things?

   6. MZMariana van Zeller0:14

      So good to see you. Great. Thanks so much for having me again.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      I'm so happy every time I see you that you're alive and well.

   8. MZMariana van Zeller0:19

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:19

      'Cause you do some wild stuff, lady. (laughs) You get involved in some, some situations.

   10. MZMariana van Zeller0:26

       I do. This, this past year was crazy.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:28

       Yeah?

   12. MZMariana van Zeller0:29

       Yeah. This, uh, we just had season four come out and it's my favorite season for many reasons, but, um, also because it was quite the adventure.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:37

       What did you get involved with this season?

   14. MZMariana van Zeller0:39

       Oof. Um, (laughs) well, uh, it ended with a military coup in Africa, where my team and I-

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:44

       Oh, boy.

   16. MZMariana van Zeller0:44

       ... got stuck. Mm-hmm. So that was sort of the-

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:47

       What part of Africa?

   18. MZMariana van Zeller0:48

       ... kickoff to all of it. Um, it was in Niger, so it's in the Sahel region of Africa. The US has actually a military presence. Remember a few years ago when there were these, uh, four US marines that were killed in the Sahel in Niger, and nobody even knew they were there?

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:03

       Mm-hmm.

   20. MZMariana van Zeller1:03

       Well, there's actually over 1,000 troops stationed in Niger. And, uh, we were there in a little town called Agadez, which is in sort of the southern border of the Sahara Desert, and we were doing a story about gold mining. So the story itself was incredible. We had to, you know, we had, uh, con- military co- convoy with us because it's incredibly dangerous part of the world. You've got terrorism, you've got ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Boko Haram, you've got kidnappers, so it's very, very dangerous.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:29

       Mm.

   22. MZMariana van Zeller1:29

       We'd gone there with the permission of the government, but only if we, we had to have a military con- uh, convoy with us at all, all times. So we're talking about four tru- armored trucks, uh, with lots of trained soldiers that every time we stopped, they'd get out of the trucks and basically point their guns all around. They were very well-trained.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:46

       Wow.

   24. MZMariana van Zeller1:46

       A lot of them are actually trained by the American military. And, uh, we went out into the desert and visited these gold mines which are crazy. It was an eight-hour off-roading into the desert to arrive at these illegal, unregulated mines. We're going down these tunnels and it's, you know, h- uh, a hundred meters down, hand, uh, dug tunnels with no, nothing to buttress them, no safety precautions or anything.

   25. JRJoe Rogan2:11

       Oh.

   26. MZMariana van Zeller2:11

       But we filmed it all and we get to the end, and there's people basically mining for gold. And, and again, constantly with the idea that the military is telling us, "Okay, we have to film fast, we have to do this fast. We can't be out at night." So we went to a sort of safety, uh, more safe location to sleep that night under the stars. And then the next day, it's time to come back to Agadez, the town, which is about 100 miles but takes anywhere between, like, three to 12 hours to get because you can, lots of things can happen along the way. And we arrived in Agadez and we got word that there had been a military coup and the president had been deposed, and, uh, he was now being kidnapped inside the presidential palace, basically was stuck there with his family, and that we were about to lose our military compound and security. And they closed all the land borders and the airspace, and we were stuck, uh, with no way out 'cause you can't travel by road without security in that part of the world, and there were no planes leaving, so we were stuck.

   27. JRJoe Rogan3:16

       Wow. How long were you stuck for?

   28. MZMariana van Zeller3:18

       Uh, it was about nine days. Uh, the military coup-

   29. JRJoe Rogan3:21

       Oh, my God.

   30. MZMariana van Zeller3:21

       ... happened on a Wednesday, and we left on a Thursday, sorry, so e- eight days, but it was eight incredibly scary days. You know, I'm, I've been a journalist covering black markets and going to war zones and conflict areas all my life, but this was, I think, the most uncomfortable and scared I've ever been because first of all, the uncertainty of not knowing. There were all these, the West African states were threatening invasion. The merc- the Wagner Group, the Russian mercenary group were saying that they were going to come and protect the new, um, military coup leaders. And so it was a power struggle between the United States and Russia, and that's sort of the last place you want to be, right?
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Wow. …

   1. MZMariana van Zeller15:00

      close to nothing.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:01

      Wow.

   3. MZMariana van Zeller15:01

      We thought about it, but we didn't. (laughs)

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:03

      Yeah. It doesn't seem like you should.

   5. MZMariana van Zeller15:06

      No. No. No.

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:07

      (laughs) Maybe if you found one.

   7. MZMariana van Zeller15:09

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:09

      But-

   9. MZMariana van Zeller15:09

      Just, well, we actually-

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:11

       Yeah.

   11. MZMariana van Zeller15:11

       ... went to the mines, and I remember... That's what happens. We went to gold mines in the Amazon as well for another story, is that when you're in these places, you're, you can't stop looking (laughs) at the ground to see if by any chance you find anything, but obviously...

   12. JRJoe Rogan15:24

       Yeah. How, uh, difficult is it for them to find diamonds? 'Cause that's the thing about the De Beers.

   13. MZMariana van Zeller15:30

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan15:30

       They're so smart with what they've done.

   15. MZMariana van Zeller15:32

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JRJoe Rogan15:32

       They basically have warehouses filled with diamonds.

   17. MZMariana van Zeller15:34

       I know.

   18. JRJoe Rogan15:35

       And they've elevated the price to pretend that they're rare, but they're not really rare anymore.

   19. MZMariana van Zeller15:38

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JRJoe Rogan15:39

       Because of their mining abilities, the, the, the technology has increased, uh-

   21. MZMariana van Zeller15:43

       Right. They control the price that way.

   22. JRJoe Rogan15:44

       Yeah.

   23. MZMariana van Zeller15:45

       Right.

   24. JRJoe Rogan15:45

       It's pretty smart. (laughs)

   25. MZMariana van Zeller15:46

       Very smart. Yeah. It's difficult to find a mine, a diamond. It's really difficult. I mean, there's a lot of backbreaking work. We went to Sierra Leone and did this, another story about that, too. It's backbreaking work. It's not, not easy. And they make nothing, you know. The miners make nothing.

   26. JRJoe Rogan16:00

       Yeah. That's where it's really creepy.

   27. MZMariana van Zeller16:02

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan16:02

       Well, that's why they revolted.

   29. MZMariana van Zeller16:04

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan16:04

       Should've paid those guys better.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   It's crazy. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan30:00

      have to kidnap them and bring them to America and put them in a cage so they can just point to them and stare at them-

   2. MZMariana van Zeller30:05

      It's crazy.

   3. JRJoe Rogan30:06

      Weird.

   4. MZMariana van Zeller30:07

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan30:07

      It's really weird.

   6. MZMariana van Zeller30:08

      Yeah. It is very strange. Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan30:10

      Yeah.

   8. MZMariana van Zeller30:10

      People... Again, the people that go to these places as well to take photos, I don't, I don't get it.

   9. JRJoe Rogan30:15

      Um, what else did you, uh, cover this season?

   10. MZMariana van Zeller30:18

       This season was a good one. You know, we started the first episode, we went back to my hometown, Portugal, uh, we did an episode on hash, hash trafficking.

   11. JRJoe Rogan30:26

       Oh.

   12. MZMariana van Zeller30:26

       Um, it's, uh... Most Americans don't know a lot about hash, actually, but, um-

   13. JRJoe Rogan30:31

       Most Americans, you don't know. (laughs)

   14. MZMariana van Zeller30:38

       (laughs) . But it's the first drug that people in the- in Europe usually try.

   15. JRJoe Rogan30:43

       Yeah.

   16. MZMariana van Zeller30:43

       Um, it's the marijuana of Europe, we'd say, or the rest of the world actually.

   17. JRJoe Rogan30:46

       Well, it is THC, right?

   18. MZMariana van Zeller30:47

       It is, yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan30:48

       Yeah.

   20. MZMariana van Zeller30:48

       It's from the resin glands, so it's-

   21. JRJoe Rogan30:49

       Yeah. It's just super, super-duper potent.

   22. MZMariana van Zeller30:52

       Super potent, yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan30:53

       Yeah.

   24. MZMariana van Zeller30:53

       So it's, uh, the first drug I tried and the first drug that any of my friends in Portugal tried. And, you know, back then, when I was a kid and trying hash for the first time, I always sort of wondered, "Where does this come from?" And we knew that it was Morocco, everybody knows that the majority of hash in the world comes from Morocco, but now I thought, "Well, I'm... The unique opportunity to actually go and try to figure out, out how it gets here." And so we started in Portugal and, um, I reached out to a bunch of my girlfriends in Portugal and said, "Hey, let's meet at this time in the rocks where we used to, like, hang out and hide and smoke hash (laughs) and, uh, and, uh... and we'll film a scene of us talking about while we're smoking." So I actually smoked on camera for the first time-

   25. JRJoe Rogan31:34

       Hmm.

   26. MZMariana van Zeller31:34

       ... did drugs on camera.

   27. JRJoe Rogan31:35

       In Portugal, it's all decriminalized, though, correct?

   28. MZMariana van Zeller31:37

       Yeah. It's been decriminalized since 2001, so-

   29. JRJoe Rogan31:39

       Yeah.

   30. MZMariana van Zeller31:39

       ... completely legal to do.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Oh, wow. …

   1. MZMariana van Zeller45:00

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:00

      Oh, wow.

   3. MZMariana van Zeller45:00

      So there's like 70%, I think, of commuters in South Africa commute on these taxis, basically it's like these vans, and they're worth a lot of money and it's sort of a cash business, and the owners of these taxi companies are routinely being killed. So we spent time with a taxi owner who owns one of these companies and he had a bullet for an, from an AK-47 on his head that he showed us. It was a $1 million, um, prize for anyone who killed him, and this is a crazy guy, and they... His rivals were just across the street with all their taxis, the other company that he says are trying to kill him, so he's surrounded by bodyguards with AK-47 at all time, AK-47s at all time, and he was like, "Do you wanna go across (laughs) the street with me and film me as I get close to the other guys and see what happens?" I was like, "Sure." So we start walking towards the rivals, and immediately there's a group of heavily armed men walking towards us. Immediately, within like seconds. And this happens every day, like people are killed every day.

   4. JRJoe Rogan46:00

      Sheesh.

   5. MZMariana van Zeller46:01

      And so, yeah, and then back to the assassin, and...

   6. JRJoe Rogan46:04

      And they don't have a hard time talking to you about this? I would, I would think that there's no upside to them discussing this with you, but potentially they could get caught.

   7. MZMariana van Zeller46:12

      Yeah. Um, we go through a lot of, you know, to make sure that we protect their identities, but I think JoJo, this assassin is a good example of why they talk to us. So we spent an hour and a half more or less, two hours, talking to him, and he tells us a story of how he became an assassin. His parents were killed when he was young, um, he was about nine years old or something. He felt like he was left with no protection. He started carrying a knife. And his parents were killed by an assassin, by the way, as well. Um, and he... And then eventually, he got involved in the drug business and then eventually people were paying him to go out, paying him much more money to go out and kill. And he says, "Yeah, at the beginning I had to get drugged and drunk to be able to do it, um, but now I'm used to it. I'm cold-blooded and I'm, uh, I'm used to it." And we started talking about the cycle of violence, right? Because he also said he doesn't kill women and children. And I asked him, "But do you realize that you s- are traumatized from the experience that you had that your parents were killed and now you're doing the same thing to other kids?" He says, like, "Uh, actually, never thought of that." And then he started talking about he really wants to quit and he's been thinking, but he doesn't have... He can't get a job and all of that.

   8. JRJoe Rogan47:20

      Oh, man.

   9. MZMariana van Zeller47:21

      So I think people talk to us for a variety of reasons. I think there's a lot of boasting, a lot of people that want to just talk about what they do. Sometimes their-

   10. JRJoe Rogan47:28

       Yeah.

   11. MZMariana van Zeller47:28

       ... families don't even know they do what they do. I think in places like Sinaloa where I've spent a lot of time with the cartel, it's impunity. They don't see a downside because the authorities aren't really going to do anything-

   12. JRJoe Rogan47:39

       Yeah.

   13. MZMariana van Zeller47:39

       ... even if they know who they are.

   14. JRJoe Rogan47:41

       Wow.

   15. MZMariana van Zeller47:41

       And, uh, yeah-

   16. JRJoe Rogan47:42

       How do you feel safe in a place like that?

   17. MZMariana van Zeller47:44

       Actually, I see, uh, it's... I sometimes feel, um, in certain countries safer... Um, in Sinaloa, for example, if you are... If you've give, been given the green light to go into the cartel, the territory controlled (claps hands) by the cartel to talk to cartel members, um, and it takes, you know, weeks, months, sometimes years to get that access, once we're under their protection, we're under their protection. Like, w- we have their protection to be there. But, you know, then certain things happen. Like, uh, we were filming in Sinaloa once and...... uh, we're filming these sicarios and they had their walkie-talkies. And, um, so they're communicating with the whole group and they know everybody that comes in and out of their territory. And suddenly, they started panicking because the Marines had a helicopter coming th- their way. And the Marines in Mexico are known to shoot first and ask questions after. And they started freaking out, and they basically jumped into the cars and left us, and we didn't know what to do. Should we go after them and they're gonna think we're s- part of the group?

   18. JRJoe Rogan48:47

       Right.

   19. MZMariana van Zeller48:47

       And they can start shooting at us? Or should we stay behind, but we were in an open area, in a sort of forested area. Should we try to hide? And then we're gonna really look suspicious. (laughs) So it was, uh, it was crazy.

   20. JRJoe Rogan49:00

       What did you do?

   21. MZMariana van Zeller49:00

       We got in a car and followed them.

   22. JRJoe Rogan49:02

       Wow.

   23. MZMariana van Zeller49:02

       And then spent the day with them doing cocaine all day-

   24. JRJoe Rogan49:05

       Wow.

   25. MZMariana van Zeller49:05

       ... because it wasn't safe for us to leave until the night.

   26. JRJoe Rogan49:08

       So they just do cocaine all the time?

   27. MZMariana van Zeller49:09

       They do a lot of cocaine. And funny story.

   28. JRJoe Rogan49:12

       (exhales)

   29. MZMariana van Zeller49:12

       My director of photography, Fred Manoux, uh, who was the director of photog- photography for Bourdain on Parts Unknown before. And he, um, he got ... We were filming this scene and we'd driven into the Sierra Madre Mountains, and then we had to walk for a mile or two to a place where they felt comfortable, um, showing us their guns. And they were going to start shooting and they would give us the interview of what, why ... It was the story about the American guns flowing down South and, um, how they're used in the violence. And we're walking there, and suddenly Fred basically turns to us and says, "I don't feel good." And he had a massive case of, what is it that you call it? The revenge, the ...

   30. JRJoe Rogan49:54

       Oh, Montezuma's Revenge.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:12:22

   Optometrists? …

   1. MZMariana van Zeller1:00:00

      has more hospitals and orthodontists and optician, opticians... How do you say the doc... Glasses?

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:05

      Optometrists?

   3. MZMariana van Zeller1:00:06

      Optometrists (laughs) than anywhere else in the world. Um, it's basically you, you drive around and it's like, doctor's office, pharmacy, uh, optometrist, all of it. Uh, and it's all catering to Americans, right? And so, uh, vast numbers of Americans come every year and buy their drugs there. And they're pharmacies, they are chained pharmacies that look... That could be a CVS, but in Mexico. It's not a CVS, but it could be a sort of brand name that you recognize in Mexico. But what we did with the cartel is we were trying to figure out how they get their medications in the, these shelves. And we filmed one cartel member, he allowed us to film, we couldn't go inside, but I had him... He had a mic, so I was able to listen to everything from the car. He we- he goes into a pharmacy and basically tells the woman there, like this... And the meds look... We saw them making them, they look exactly like the real thing, the packaging, everything. Some of it actually comes from the legitimate places that they steal from the factories, like the packaging and all of it. Um, but they basically tell him, "Okay, you put this on your shelves, and if you don't, we're gonna burn your phar- pharmacy." So we s- we heard that, we saw that.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:01:06

      (exhales)

   5. MZMariana van Zeller1:01:07

      And so a lot of them are forced to carry them-

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:01:10

      And they're forced to carry fake drugs?

   7. MZMariana van Zeller1:01:12

      ... by the cartel. Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:01:12

      And do they have any idea what's in them when they're selling them or they just ...

   9. MZMariana van Zeller1:01:16

      I don't think they do, no. I, I doubt that they knew, for example, that there was fentanyl and meth mixed in with some of their other medications, 'cause that's, creates a huge problem for them.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:01:26

       And so for the consumer, how do they find the legitimate stuff?

   11. MZMariana van Zeller1:01:31

       They don't, which is why it's so hard. So this woman that we followed, she goes there, she buys her medication, and I asked her, "Do you know what's in there?" "Oh, no, but it's, my friend told me that it's a legitimate pharmacy." Of course, she has no idea-

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:01:42

       Right.

   13. MZMariana van Zeller1:01:42

       ... that this is happening, that the cartel is actually threatening them to death if they don't stock their shelves with their pharmace- fake pharmaceuticals.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:01:49

       Did you take any of that stuff and test it?

   15. MZMariana van Zeller1:01:51

       Uh, we did. It's a lot more complicated, um, than, than it seems. The LA Times, again, did an amazing investigation where they did test it and again, I think it was something like seven or eight out of their 10 that they tested had fentanyl and meth, which was crazy, out of two pharmacies, I think is just insane.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:02:07

       And what kind of drugs are they talking about that have fentanyl and meth in it?

   17. MZMariana van Zeller1:02:09

       Uh, oh, I can't remember, but it was a- I think it was Adderall maybe.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:02:13

       Mm.

   19. MZMariana van Zeller1:02:13

       Um, I can't remember exactly.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:02:16

       (sighs)

   21. MZMariana van Zeller1:02:16

       But it was a great investigation and then, yeah, in our, in our story, we sort of looked at how it ends up in the shelves and who's making it and how it's being produced. There's a, an amazing doctor-

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:02:26

       (laughs)

   23. MZMariana van Zeller1:02:26

       ... in Mexico City called Dr. Loco who we spent time with, a doctor, a crazy doctor, Dr. Loco, who was a chemist himself, a doctor as well, and his father owned a pharmacy, so he sort of knew how to ... And he showed us. He's make- He's putting the little silicone pouch inside and the cotton ball that goes inside and it looks exactly the same. Like, no one would've been able to tell.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:02:51

       (sighs) God, that's so scary.

   25. MZMariana van Zeller1:02:52

       So scary.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:02:54

       Yeah.

   27. MZMariana van Zeller1:02:55

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:02:55

       Does ... Is there any evidence that that happens in America?

   29. MZMariana van Zeller1:02:59

       That it's being sold in America? Yeah. We went with a raid with the sheriff, LA Sheriff's Department, where we saw a, sort of a grocery store, uh, in the back. They were selling these medications m- mo- mainly to underprivileged immigrant communities because they couldn't afford the real stuff.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:03:14

       But they're not in legitimate pharmacies?

Episode duration: 2:12:11