The Joe Rogan ExperienceJoe Rogan Experience #2096 - Josh Dubin & Sheldon Johnson
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
155 min read · 30,891 words- 0:00 – 15:00
(drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast.…
- NANarrator
(drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays) Okay, Mr. Dugan, good to see you again, sir.
- JDJosh Dubin
Mr. Rogan, it's an honor.
- NANarrator
Always, always a pleasure.
- JDJosh Dubin
Always.
- NANarrator
Introduce your friend.
- JDJosh Dubin
This is my, uh, my friend, my client, my brother, Sheldon Johnson. Uh, I figured we'd do something a little bit different. Um, typically the person sitting to my right is someone that was wrongfully convicted, so I don't want to bury the headline. Sheldon is guilty. Um, and I thought it would be a real interesting conversation to learn his, um, background, learn about his upbringing, learn about the crime that he committed, and hear the sentence he got, which, um, I don't want to, to shade it and, uh, inject my opinion, I have a strong one, but it's, uh, pretty astounding how, um, he was treated by the system. I think that there's a real interesting twist that happens at his sentencing and, um, I know I've said this before and it probably sounds repetitive, but another miracle sitting to my right, just like a, a marvelous human being who was basically told by a judge, um, by an African-American judge that "You don't matter, you don't count, and I'm gonna throw your life away." For a crime in which the victim received two stitches and, um, on a second offense, his first offense being a gun possession charge. So, I will say this, that he received a sentence that far eclipses a sentence, um, that would be commonly doled out for murder or manslaughter. So, with that, here's Sheldon.
- NANarrator
Sheldon, how long you been out for?
- SJSheldon Johnson
Um, going on nine months. I got out, uh, May 4th last year, 2023.
- NANarrator
And you were in for 25?
- SJSheldon Johnson
25 years and five months.
- NANarrator
(exhales)
- SJSheldon Johnson
Long time.
- NANarrator
For two stitches.
- JDJosh Dubin
Two stitches.
- NANarrator
Jesus.
- JDJosh Dubin
But one, one of the things that always struck me about Sheldon, um, was I didn't know him, and I got a call from these two remarkable attorneys at, uh, organization called the Center for Appellate Litigation, Barbara Zolot and Allison Haupt, who had been working on his case for a long time, and they called, uh, me and Derrick Hamilton and said, "You know, we know you're working on some stuff with the Manhattan District Attorney's Office. We have this case that has sort of hit a snag. Want you to take a look at it and, um, see if you could help us." And I called Barbara back and said, "I think, I think that there's a mistake here, because it says that he was sentenced to 50 years." Um, I mean, that's no bullshit. I could not believe what I was reading, and then I read about what Sheldon had accomplished while in prison, um, and that his earliest date of release was I think 20-
- SJSheldon Johnson
2049.
- JDJosh Dubin
... 49. And he had already served 25 years, so, um, I was just blown away by the, um, level of accomplishment and the mental wherewithal that he possessed to accomplish what he did while incarcerated, and then the path he's taken in the eight months since he's been out is, um, it's, it's, uh, we talk about on these episodes how do you make change happen? He's living it and making it happen, so I th- thought it would be just fascinating to go through, um, like I said, his life, um, how he got to where he was, why he got this, what his thoughts are and our thoughts are on the sentence he received, why that happens too often to people of color, um, and I know there's one thing I want to say and then I'm gonna shut up and really let Sheldon talk and you talk. Um, I get a, I get this a lot, "Why are you always bringing up race when you talk about the system?" And, um, my, my response to that is, if you don't talk about how it impacts the system, even for people that have been found guilty, um, it's like, um, it's like having a conversation about President Biden and ignoring the very obvious apparent cognitive deficiencies he has. It would be like talking about Donald Trump and not recognizing that he seems like an unhinged lunatic. It would be like talking about Kamala Harris and ignoring that she, you know, didn't do much to advance criminal justice reform o- You have to confront it. It's just, it's there. Um, is it that all people that get wrongfully convicted are people of color? No, but most of 'em. Is it that all people of color get disparate sentences? Oh, absolutely. Um, so that's why I thought that this was an important conversation to have and getting to know Sheldon, just thought he, uh, he has a remarkable story to tell and a perspective on, on his circumstances, the system, and he's someone that's taken responsibility for what he did and I think is a living example of what can happen if we think long and hard about, um-... if someone's life is worth just throwing away and putting behind, uh, bars so that they can rot in a dank cell, because he would have been 70 years old when he got out, way past his life expectancy.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, one of the things that's happened through all of our conversations that we've had on this show is it, it highlights how insanely broken the criminal justice system is, and how little oversight there is, and how few people are looking at these individual cases. And that you can have one judge who does what they did to you, and no one's looking, no one cares, no one pays attention. And until someone like you goes in and starts combing over this and then coming up with a strategy for, you know, to actually apply real justice, or at least get someone out. I mean, the only way to apply real justice is to have a fucking time machine, right? But it's broken. I mean, it's, it's so broken and it seems so overwhelmed and the root cause of it is never addressed. The root cause of... I mean, w- I've, I've said it ad nauseam, but I'll say it again. Where the fuck did we come up with 100 and whatever billion dollars to send to Ukraine and we don't have any money to, to try to do something about these insanely impoverished, crime-ridden, gang-ridden, drug-ridden communities? We don't do anything? We have nothing? I mean, this is my, my take on this whole Make America Great Again thing. You wanna make America great again? H- m- make it so there's less losers. Make it so that more people have a fucking chance. The idea that everyone starts on the same line? I mean, I'm not talking about equality of outcome. That's not possible. But equality of opportunity is possible. That's a possible goal. And at least we could advance that. At least we could do something to, you know, just, just change the course of who knows how many people's lives. And we don't do a fucking thing about it.
- JDJosh Dubin
Uh, I mean, uh, we're looking at each other because we just had... We just, like, had lunch before we came. It's, like, the precise conversation that we had. Um, I told you this is a motherfucker that gets it.
- SJSheldon Johnson
Oh, I know.
- JRJoe Rogan
It just makes no sense to me. It, it makes no sense to me and it's not a subject of any presidential debates, it's not a subject of anybody who's running for Congress or running for Senate. We have to fix this. This is a problem that's been going on for decades and decades, back through Jim Crow, back all the way to slavery, the same, same communities, and we don't do anything?
- SJSheldon Johnson
It, it, it, it
- JRJoe Rogan
Pull that a little closer to the show. redlining, everything. Pull that mic up a little bit. Yeah, just, just... Yeah, that's good. That's good? Yeah, yeah, that's good. I mean, it's, it's wild. It really is wild. And, you know, and the race part of it is a major factor. It's a major factor. And it's a factor that gets ignored when people start talking about racism, the systemic racism in this country. Talk about sentencing. How come that's not talked about?
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah, well, that's a vestige of... that's a vestige of slavery-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yep.
- JDJosh Dubin
... segregation, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Jim Crow, redlining-
- JDJosh Dubin
... Jim Crow.
- JRJoe Rogan
... everything.
- 15:00 – 30:00
(laughs) …
- SJSheldon Johnson
and, like, people would just be making all ki- uh, all type of random comments and just disrespectful, you know, just hateful stuff. And I would sit there as a kid just kind of, like, looking up like, like, "Dude, I can, like, hear you." Um, so, you know, um, I think, uh, my life took a significant turn in, um, when I was in the fifth grade. I was always pretty smart. But, you know, as, as being smart and growing up in these neighborhoods, you know, the, the school systems are not really equipped to handle the, the number of children that's coming through. So you had one teacher and, like, 30 kids. Um, and me just being who I was, I was always pretty smart. And when I was finished with my work, I would kind of just clown around. I had this teacher, um, in the fifth grade, my math teacher, and what he would do was he ... when you acted out in the classroom, he would call you to the front of the classroom. He had a stack of rulers. Today, he would be arrested, um, back then, but it was ... back then, it was permissible. It was considered as, you know, just punishing kids. And, um, and he would call you to the front of the classroom, he would make you stick out your hand, and he would put salt ... He had a big salt shaker that he kept on his desk, and he would sprinkle salt in your palm, and he would smack the ruler into your hand, and the salt would kind of embed itself into your palm and would kind of have, like, a little burning sensation. So, um, one day I decided that I was tired of it. And he called me to the front of the classroom, and I put my hand out and when he swung, I moved my hand and he almost fell over. He chased me around the classroom. I ran out into the hallway. Um, he chased me into the hallway. I grabbed the fire extinguisher off the wall and I sprayed him until he fell. (laughs)
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- GCGuest (off-mic/producer side comment)
That was my reaction too. I was like, "He's
- SJSheldon Johnson
And he was-
- GCGuest (off-mic/producer side comment)
... done with
- SJSheldon Johnson
... cursing and oh, man. Um, but long story short, uh, I sat in the back of the police car for three hours as they determined my fate as a 10-year-old. Put me in handcuffs and everything. Um, and I had a, I had a counselor at that time. And I guess she convinced them to send me to a hospital. So they sent me to Mount Sinai Hospital, um, psychiatric unit. And I remember them sticking me with a needle, uh, Thorazine. 10-year-old kid, man. Just, you know, just ...
- NANarrator
Jesus Christ.
- SJSheldon Johnson
... in a straight jacket being escorted to a hospital and they stick me with a needle. Um, and so for months, from Mount Sinai, I went to Metropolitan, um, and I attempted to escape from Metropolitan and they sent me to, um, a more secure area.
- GCGuest (off-mic/producer side comment)
What's Metropolitan?
- SJSheldon Johnson
Metropolitan, um, Hospital. It's also a psych ward.
- NANarrator
So w- why did they send you to a psych ward for that?
- SJSheldon Johnson
I guess they, they ... You know, I, I was considered as a young Black kid who's out of control with behavioral issues. And, you know, I, I'm not sure exactly the gist of the conversation that took place. But, um, from what I've gathered now in the future is that my mother felt that she would rather see me in the hospital than to see me in the jail. Because it was either that or they told her that they were gonna send me to Spofford. So I went through that, um, just being, uh, subject to just a whole bunch of different medications. Melleril, Haldol, lithium, Cogentin. Um, and then they transferred me to Pleasantville, um-... from Pleasantville, I went to Hawthorne. And, you know, and I'm gonna be honest, this is where I learned how to become a criminal. Because prior to that, I was just a kid. They put me in this place where, you know, I was around older kids, and these kids were really, like, about that life. There was stuff, there was really bad stuff happening. If you look up Hawthorne-Cedar Knolls, to this day, it's been closed for allegations of, of sex trafficking and child abuse.
- JRJoe Rogan
Just, just so ... Because we know it 'cause we're from New York, but those are juvenile detention facilities.
- SJSheldon Johnson
They're like group homes. Yeah, they're like juvenile detention, uh, facilities. Um, so they considered me as a person, uh, they put what they called a pin on you, and it's a person of interest, a, a person in need of, of assistance. And they put you in these places and they just kinda just leave you there. Um, so I finally got out of there. I went through a lot there. Um, I was molested by a counselor. Um, and I finally e- escaped from there. And I just went back into the streets at 13 years old. And I just was fending for myself. I was out in streets-
- NANarrator
So, it was three years of that?
- SJSheldon Johnson
Three years of that, from the age-
- NANarrator
For o- one instance-
- SJSheldon Johnson
One instance.
- NANarrator
... where a guy's trying to hit you with a fucking ruler.
- SJSheldon Johnson
Yes.
- NANarrator
Wow.
- SJSheldon Johnson
And, you know, I always look back and I see that as a trajectory in my life that just changed everything. I went from, you know ... It, it changed me as a person. I lost my innocence. I felt like after I, after I left that place, I was a darker person, um, because of the things that I saw and the things that I went through. Um, so I come back and we talking about this is 1988, crack era Harlem. You know, you got kids 13, 14 years old making $1000 every two, three days. Selling drugs, looking out on the corners. This was like real stuff. You see New Jack City, New Jack City was for real back then.
- NANarrator
The people who grew up after that do not understand pre-crack and post-crack.
- SJSheldon Johnson
Oh, yeah. Big difference.
- NANarrator
It was wild.
- SJSheldon Johnson
Devastated my community, man.
- NANarrator
It was wild. And how the fuck did that happen? Like, how the fuck did that happen?
- SJSheldon Johnson
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
When you go through the whole story of it- ... and you go through, like-
- NANarrator
All right, now we're gonna-
- 30:00 – 45:00
Did you get that…
- SJSheldon Johnson
warrants and all kinda other stuff. You sat in the bullpens for three, four days before you even got out. Um, and I remember lying to the officer. He said, "How old are you?" I said, "I'm 16," because I wanted to go to Rikers Island so that I could come back and be around the older guys and tell them, "Hey, listen, I went and I still got my sneakers." You know, and, and, and, and, and the girls and everybody just treated you different and, and it's really sad. But that was the reality.... that I was faced with. So, I come back, I'm 13 and I'm going through this stuff, my mother's still struggling. Um, she's on SSD, which is Social Security for Disability. My father's in prison. Um, and it's just, I just, I started selling drugs. A guy offered me a opportunity to be a lookout. He said, "Listen, kid, I just need you to know, I'm gonna give you $75 a day. I just need you to stand on that corner and when you see the police car just yell, 'Oh, shit, oh, shit.'" That was like a little thing. And I would just stand there and eventually I just slowly moved up the ranks, and I, and I became this person that I feel like I was never meant to be. But because of the conditions and because of where I was at and because I, what I saw, what I was exposed to, um, made me into someone else. It turned me into, into, into this person that I was never meant to be. And I just, you know, just, when you're in these, these, these, when you're in this melting pot of just insanity, you, you, you, you know, you lose sense of what's, um, what's permissible and what's not, and what's impermissible, right? You know, I'm committing crimes and it just doesn't even matter no more. Um, I was never the guy to, you know, to hurt any old people. In my era, you know, when you're seeing old people come through, you helped them with their bags and we had respect for our elders. That was something that was always taught to us. Um, now these kids, it's, it's just, that's a whole nother story. Um, but yeah, I'm just, and I, and I'm committing cr- and I'm getting arrested for little stupid crimes. Driving without a license, um, standing on the corner, little small dr- petty drug cases, um, and I'm just, I'm just kinda just moving through my life with no purpose. But I'm providing for my family. My mother doesn't, you know, at the end of the month, we don't have to worry about just eating grits and cheese no more. You know, we can eat chicken and Velveeta shells and cheese. You know, and, and, and for some people, that's significant. You know, I can buy a couch now. I can buy a real couch that, that, that's comfortable. I can buy a TV for my mother. I can, you know, set up her cable to where she can watch HBO. All of these little small things that I wasn't able to do, that she couldn't really do for herself after she paid the rent, um, was significant. And it made me feel like, um, I had a purpose, it made me feel like a man. When in all actuality, you know, many of the values and the morals that I adopted growing up were just so warped and so misplaced. Like, Scarface the movie, right? You know, you have this, "Oh, I don't work, I don't break my balls or my word for nobody," right? You know, and I remember one time a friend of mine, he came to pick me up, and he was on the run from the cops, he had a warrant out for his arrest. He had a car full of drugs and a car full of guns. And because I gave him my word, I felt like I couldn't back out of the situation. Nothing bad happened, but it's just the idea of sometimes growing up and, and adopting these values and these morals, and you begin, you begin to take them on as part of your characteristics. And you just, you just make, you end up making really, really bad decisions that can cost you for the rest of your life, like my son. Like, when my son, when he, when he got into a, uh, he got into a fight with an Asian guy. They called him the Columbia Law Student killer, right? Um, he gets into a fight with this Chinese guy, and, um, this is not to take away anything from that man's family and, you know, as a man, as his father, I felt some type of way. Um, but the guy goes into the street and gets hit by a car and he dies. But this is how fast your life can change from just one simple mistake. From one mistake, um, and I just feel like, you know, a lot of times these conditions are, are, are created and there's really no ... there's no alternatives. I had never been on a plane, like Josh said. Like, I had never even thought about going on a plane. Um, so, I'm growing up in this community, um, my father's gone, my mother's, you know, she's deaf. I ended up having a son. My son was born in 1993 and, um, that just made things, that just exacerbated the issue, right? So, now I'm really, you know, what am I gonna do now? You know, I have a son, I have someone to look at and then despite how many times I said that I was never gonna be who my father was, my actions were actually setting me up to be exactly who my father was, and remove me from my son's life. Um, and in 19 ... I caught the gun charge that, uh, that, that, that triggered the felony that had allowed them to be able to sentence me the way that they did in 1994. Um, I also caught another case. At that time, I was gi- I was, I was what you call, um, giving out consignment on drugs. Um, two people in particular I gave consignment to and I ended up getting arrested for a case. Um, and when I sent someone to go pick up the money from them, they kind of just was like, you know, "Nah, whatever. I'm not paying." So, when I came home, um, one guy in particular, I ran into him with his girlfriend. He owed me five-
- GCGuest (off-mic/producer side comment)
Did you get that case, got dismissed, right?
- SJSheldon Johnson
The gun charge?
- GCGuest (off-mic/producer side comment)
No, the one that you were away for. You got arrested for something.
- SJSheldon Johnson
Mm-hmm.
- GCGuest (off-mic/producer side comment)
You're in jail.
- SJSheldon Johnson
Yes.
- GCGuest (off-mic/producer side comment)
These guys figure since you're in jail, "Fuck it, we're not gonna pay him."
- SJSheldon Johnson
Yeah, "I'm not gonna pay 'em."
- GCGuest (off-mic/producer side comment)
And then the case that you were arrested for got dismissed.
- SJSheldon Johnson
Got dismissed.
- GCGuest (off-mic/producer side comment)
All right. So, then you-
- SJSheldon Johnson
I got acquitted.
- GCGuest (off-mic/producer side comment)
So, then you come home.
- SJSheldon Johnson
So, then I come home and, you know, I need my money. I, I need my money. I'm just, this is just me being honest, this is just me being straight. You know, I gave you something and we had an understanding that you were gonna pay me. And when I came home, when I finally located this particular individual, he had his girlfriend with him. Um, and this guy owed me $5,000 for some drugs that I had gave him on consignment. I gave him a eighth of k- a eighth of a kilo, which is 125 grams of cocaine.And when I saw him, he had a bunch of jewelry on, he was with his girlfriend, she had a bunch of jewelry on. I said, "Hey, man. (knocks on table) Where's my money at?" "Oh, yo, I was gonna pay you." As far as I was concerned, his jewelry was ... we was even. So, I robbed him and I took his jewelry. And his girlfriend happened to be there and, um, unfortunately she got caught up in the situation. I had a bunch of g- young guys with me and they robbed her as well. And he got hit in the head with the gun, right here on the side of his head and he had two stitches. And they gave me 25 years for that case.
- NANarrator
Did you hit him in the head?
- SJSheldon Johnson
No. One of the guys that I was with hit him in the head. Um ... and he identified me in a photo array, unbeknownst to me, he identified me in a photo array. Um, this guy, you know, as far as I was concerned, he was in the streets just like I was, so-
- NANarrator
Right.
- SJSheldon Johnson
I didn't really understand that, you know, like I said, we go back to morals and values and principles and how warped it can be, right?
- NANarrator
Right.
- SJSheldon Johnson
In my mind at the time, this is a guy who I gave something to. He's living an illegal life, I'm living an illegal life. So, as far as I was concerned at that time, it was fair game.
- NANarrator
Right.
- SJSheldon Johnson
In hindsight, as I, as I moved on and I became more mature and I began to re-evaluate myself, I realized how wrong that was. But that was later on. At this time, I committed the crime and I just kept moving. Another guy that I ran into, he also owed me some money, he owed me $7,000 and it kinda went along the same ways. He was selling drugs out of an auto parts store. He was a Spanish guy. Um, I got word that this is where he was at and he was selling drugs and I was going to get my money. And the same circumstances kinda ensued. Saw him, "Hey, what's going on?" You know. Um, reading in between the lines and outside the margins without really going into all of the details, I robbed him because he owed me $7,000.
- NANarrator
Did he get physically hurt?
- SJSheldon Johnson
No. He didn't get touched. Got roughed up a little bit, but there was no physical, there was no physical harm. Nothing. Um, going back to morals and values and principles, right? In my mind, he was fair game. He's selling drugs, I'm selling drugs, you owe me money, I came to take what you have. In that world, that was considered as permissible. These are one of the rules of something that was permissible, in that world. Um, long story short, um, in December 1997, I get arrested for both cases. Really for one of them, for the, uh, one with the guy and the girl. Um ... and then the other case drops with the auto parts store, the guy that I said that was selling drugs out of the auto parts store. Um ... I am in the process of going to court, I'm going back and forth to court. I'm on Rikers Island at the time. It's just crazy on Rikers Island. Um, that's when the gangs was involved, uh, prior to that, a year before that, I had got involved with the gangs. I was, I was Blood, I was a gang member. That's where the cut come from on my face, I have a bunch of stab marks from just being in those environments and being on Rikers Island and just, um, warring with other f- uh, rival gangs. Uh, mostly Latin Kings and Ñetas. Um ... my final offer before trial was 23 years. Which kinda blew me away, because my lawyer kept telling me that my maximum sentence was 25 years if I went to trial. So, in my mind I, I, it just didn't make no sense to me, why would I forfeit my rights to an appeal if it's only a two-year difference? Um, I told the judge, "I would take 15 years right now." I acknowledged that I had, that I had made some mistakes and I had done some things that, that were wrong. And I said, "I'll take 15 years right now." He refused to, uh, accept my plea offer and I went to trial and then I ended up getting 50 years. Five zero and, um-
- NANarrator
So, they give you 25 for each case? Is that what it was?
- SJSheldon Johnson
25 for each case. Consecutive. Um ... so, and I remember, um, I remember, like, blowing trial and just not really understanding like what was ... being there, but not like, it was like almost surreal. And I remember when I went and got sentenced and the judge said, "50 years." Now, mind you, I, I, I had a Black lawyer, a Black judge and a white prosecutor. Um ... and I remember when he said, "50 years." He said, I, he went into all of these, um ... reasons why he was sentencing me the way that he was sentencing me. Um, there was never no post, uh, there was never no, uh, uh ... they're supposed to do a report prior to your sentencing and it's called a post-supervision interview. Um, pre-sentencing inter- in- investigation, it's called a PSI, pre-sentencing investigation. There was never no pre-sentencing investigation. There was never no mitigating evidence presented on my behalf to, you know, highlight why I may have made some of the decisions that I made. Um ... and he just called me a menace to society and he just, he gave me 50 years. And I remember when I, um, when I first got to downstate, which is a processing facility, and they give you what they call is a time computation sheet. And on the time computation sheet it gives you all of the numbers like, y- the beginning of your bid, how much jail time you have, um, and I would just remember 20:49. That's all I kept looking at.... 49? Are they fucking serious? This is 1998, (laughs) 1999. And I'm trying to do the math and I'm just like, "2049." I'm like, "That's 50 years from now." And I remember going to the law library and, um, I forget how I get the World Almanac. And something just says, "Look up the life expectancy." And I look up my life expectancy, and as a African American man, my life expectancy at that time was 67 years old. And I did the math and I said, "I'm gonna die in prison, man." I just really believed that I was gonna die in prison. Um, one thing I learned really, really quickly when I got to prison was that prison does two things to you. It, it brings out the best or it brings out the worst. And what I saw was, I saw individuals who were at their worst, and I saw guys who were at their best. Um, the guys who were at their best were guys who were involved in education, post-secondary education programs. They were running the program, they was running the violence groups. They was running the substance abuse groups. Um, and I remember saying to myself, "I want that." And I remember just being involved in so much bullshit because I was in a gang and, um, I was, I was, I was top of the food chain. I had my own nation. I wasn't just, like, the random gang member. I had a whole nation under me. Um, and I was just in and out the box. In and out the box, solitary confinement, which has been considered as unconstitutional now. Um, and I remember just having these moments of reflection and just asking myself, like, "What are you gonna do? Can you spend the next 48 years living like this?" And I said, "I couldn't do it." And I, um, I had lost all my privileges. They took everything from me. I was in Southport at the time, which is closed now. Uh, it's a solitary confinement facility in New York State. And, um, I was on a loaf, which is also
- 45:00 – 1:00:00
Why was it to…
- SJSheldon Johnson
unconstitutional now. So the loaf is, uh, a dietary restriction that they give you. It's a chunk of bread and it has cabbage and carrots in it, and they give you, like, a quarter of a cabbage and they give you a cup of milk. When they can't take any more of your privileges, this is what they would give you. Six days out the week, on the seventh day you would get a hot meal. Breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and then they would go back for 21 days. They would do this six and one, six and one, six and one. And it was at that moment where I, I really said, "I have to change my life. I have to change my life. I c- I, I just can't do this." Um, I had a wife, I had family still. My son was growing up. Um, he was hearing stories about my so-called, uh, notoriety and, um, I just didn't wanna, I just didn't wanna be that dad. Like, I really was looking at myself and really evaluating, asking myself like, "Yo, what the fuck are you doing?" I was still s- I was smoking a lot of weed at the time, I was drinking, um, jailhouse hooch, um, and I was at my worst. And I, and I had to real- I had to figure out how to get to my best. So I decided to, when I got out of solitary confinement, um, I did 42 days on a loaf. A lo- I went from two- being 210 pounds to, like, 168 in, like, a matter of seven months. Deflated me. Um, and when I got out, I made a decision that I was gonna walk away and I didn't care about what the consequences was. And I said to myself, "I've been doing bad for so long, I'm gonna try to do something good." If all else fails, I could always go back to doing bad. But let me try. Let me give it a shot. Um, and I ended up getting into a school program. I got my GED, um, I left the gangs alone, which was a benefit for them because, you know, I was what you call an authoritarian. I was a rule guy. I'm, I'm still a rule guy. I like rules, you know, I like rules, I like structure, I like things to be a certain way. Um, and it was to their advantage to get rid of me anyway. Plus I knew a lot of the guys who were at the top.
- NANarrator
Why was it to their advantage to get rid of you?
- SJSheldon Johnson
Because I was the type of person who would say, "You doing that for what reason? Nah, you can't do that. The rules says that you can't do this, you can't do this. This is what the rules say." And I was-
- NANarrator
The rules of the prison or the rules of the streets?
- SJSheldon Johnson
The rules of the gang. The rules of the gang.
- NANarrator
The rules of the street.
- SJSheldon Johnson
Yeah. There was rules.
- NANarrator
Give us a for instance.
- SJSheldon Johnson
Okay. So for instance, uh, I could be in a whole nother facility. Let's say I'm in Green Haven and a guy's in Attica and they want to do something to him because they feel like he's not sharing his proceeds of drugs that he's bringing into the facility. The rules say you can't do that. That's his property. That's his belongings. So I was a rule guy and they just, you know, it was to their advantage to get me outta the way. So when I decided to take a step back, they were like, "Yes." And it was to my advantage as well. Um, and this was in 2005.
- NANarrator
So there was no resistance?
- SJSheldon Johnson
None. And at that time, this is where a lot of the, uh, what they call set tripping began. Uh, the, the, the organization began to implode on itself. It was-
- NANarrator
The gang organization?
- SJSheldon Johnson
The gang organization. There was a lot of infighting, sets against sets, and I was just always against that.... and it was time for me to go. And I, I didn't care whatever the consequences was. I was fortunate that there weren't any consequences. Um, but I didn't care what the consequences was, I just walked away.
- JDJosh Dubin
And then, that begins your journey.
- SJSheldon Johnson
This begins my journey. I got into school. I got my GED. Um, from there, I got involved in, um, correspondence courses. I started interacting with guys who were teaching ART, Aggression Replacement Training, and I started to begin to understand how these concepts worked, what positive visualization is. Um, deep breathing, how to remove yourself, conflict resolution. All of these ideas of, of change began to take place with me. Um, substance abuse. I stopped smoking weed. I stopped smoking cigarettes. I was smoking, like, 30 cigarettes a day. I was... I mean, I'm literally having chest pains from smoking cigarettes. And I realized that I wanted to live and the only way that I was gonna be able to live and walk out of prison was to remove myself from these substances. I had seen so many guys get carried out. I seen guys dying. Not just from just being stabbed or with altercations from officers. I seen guys dying from... One, one guy I knew, he used to drink so much hooch, hooch his, his liver failed on him one night. He died in his cell that night. The morning when they came to do that count, he was frozen. He was stiff as a log. But these are the things that I was seeing and I, and I really... I was really in a situation where I had to ask myself, "Do I wanna go out like that?" And I didn't wanna go out like that.
- JDJosh Dubin
Tell me about jailhouse hooch. How were they making that?
- SJSheldon Johnson
(laughs) So there's a bunch of ways they could make it. Um, you could use fruit juice or... but a lotta guys would use tomato paste. Tomato paste, water and sugar. You need a kicker, which is like a, what they call a, um, like a mash. You would call it a mash. They call it a kicker. Get a plastic bag, you put it in a plastic bag, you let it blow up. It goes through the process, the carbon dioxidide process. I did a whole... I did a whole paper on, uh, ethanol when I was in Cornell so that I could learn how the process was. Um, and it's pretty good stuff if y- especially if you distill it. But it's bad for you, because it has, it has a component in it called methane and it goes straight to your brain. But, like, you know, in the streets when distillation, uh, p- places or facilities, they distill it, they remove that part of the alcohol, the methane. But in prison, guys just drink it. It's just like, they don't give a fuck. Or you make the fruit juice. Same thing, plastic bag, sugar, um, kicker, mash.
- JDJosh Dubin
What is the kicker?
- SJSheldon Johnson
The kicker is to accelerate the process.
- JDJosh Dubin
I know, I know, but what does it consist of?
- SJSheldon Johnson
Usually, like, spoiled fruit, uh, some spoiled bread with mold on it, 'cause it, it begins the process of fermentation. It's like a mash. Yeah.
- JDJosh Dubin
So this shit's gotta be super toxic for you?
- SJSheldon Johnson
Oh, super fucking toxic. (laughs)
- JDJosh Dubin
(exhales)
- SJSheldon Johnson
Juices dropping like flies, man.
- JDJosh Dubin
Oh.
- SJSheldon Johnson
Like flies.
- JDJosh Dubin
He- here's the, um... When y- when you hear l- like, going forward, what... how Sheldon changed his life and, um, m- uh, not just the correspondence courses, but, um, all these various counseling programs, outreach programs, um, his connections to the outside world, which he'll talk about, is that the, the, uh, uh, impossibly sick, fucking twisted, im- uh, horrifically sad irony to all of this is that it took prison to save him. And why couldn't he be saved as a kid? That's what, what, what, um, I am really trying to sort of put energy towards now. When you asked him earlier w- wasn't there counseling in the group home and, you know, if you see what this counseling is like, obviously I can't cast aspersions on every counselor in a group home across America. But, you know, I've had people on, on, you know, the podcast with me and I'm listening to their anger management classes, right? I won't mention who it is, but I'm listening to, like, the anger management class that they take. And it's fucking... it's on Zoom. It's run by a guy that can't fucking turn his camera on and it's like... it is, um, it's, it's bedlam. There's just people screaming, "Hey man, I can't, I can't hear you. What the fuck did you just say?" But, uh, you hear not just the anger and the frustration, but the guy's inability to control the situation, to control the technology, let alone giving out, um, you know-
- SJSheldon Johnson
Real advice, like-
- JDJosh Dubin
... real advice and constructive feedback on how different people are. He's checking a box, this guy, to do a job. Is that happening with everyone? It's not happening with everyone, but, but again, the, the, um, just the, the paradox here is that this in- this insane, inhumane sentence, um, actually saved Sheldon. Um, but why aren't, weren't there those programs, that thought, that, um, implementation in his community?... to save him as a kid.
- 1:00:00 – 1:15:00
So what, what, what…
- SJSheldon Johnson
and that was my reason. And I, and I, and I wanted to beat the system, and that was my way of beating the system, "I'm not gonna let you motherfuckers kill me." And that was my spirit, and I knew it was only one way for me to accomplish that. So like I said, I started going to school, I did the correspondence courses, I got, um, involved in the Cornell Prison Education Program, I obtained my associate's degree and then I went on to obtain my, uh, my beha- uh, my bachelor's in behavioral science from Mercy. Uh, but, you know, in, in this process, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm going through... I'm mentoring other young men, you know? Now guys are looking at me and saying, "Hold on, wait a minute, man. This, this guy is, is onto something." I got guys on both sides now saying, "Yo-... can you help me? Um, I started working in the law library. I, I discovered that I had a knack for complicated things, case law. And I was helping guys, and I was actually helping guys get out of prison. Um, and I started running the programs. And I think that's something-
- JDJosh Dubin
So what, what, what pro- what programs did you run?
- SJSheldon Johnson
So, I ran aggression replacement training.
- JDJosh Dubin
And how many years in, uh, did you start doing this?
- SJSheldon Johnson
Um, about nine years in, eight years in. I got arrested in nine- two- 1997, and about 2005 I s- this is when I started to make my transitions, about eight years in. Um, and it felt good. It felt good. It felt good to be able to call my family and send them pictures and invite them to these events where they can actually see me change. They could see actual, tangible change. It felt good to, to, for the guys that I knew that were coming to me and asking me for help, I was helping guys with their GEDs. I was ... I became a tutor in the program. Um, and the rewards that I felt, you know, it, it didn't even matter anymore about when I was gonna get out, right? It was just now about, "How can I help other people not go through what I went through and wait so long?" Because I felt like I wish I had somebody that would've came along at a, at a, at a earlier stage and, like he said, "Don't wait til I fall. Catch me before I fall." And that's part of my motto now in some of the work that we do, um, at the Queens Defenders, the Alternatives to Incarceration. And this is why I'm so passionate about a lot of the work that I do now. Um, I'm trying to catch these kids before they fall. I don't wanna wait til they're falling, um ... and I wanna show them the way. And I, and I feel like I'm a credible messenger because when they see me, they know that I came from the same place they come from, like, like, like Josh was saying earlier, right? There's a difference between being qualified and certified, right? You could read 100 books about drug, uh, drug abuse, but how qualified are you to really tell somebody who's sick on heroin and they're ready to do anything that they can for a bag of dope of what you went through? You, you can't. And, and, and this, this experience is, is priceless. This is-
- JDJosh Dubin
You said it way better than I did. Certified versus qualified. And that's why, you know, I'm just sitting back watching, um, the work that Sheldon is doing now. He's, uh ... what, what's your official title at the Queens Defenders?
- SJSheldon Johnson
Client advocate, and, um, we just created the, the YELP. We titled it, uh, YELP, uh, me and two other brothers that I was incarcerated with formerly, Bruce Bryant and Rashad Rouhani. Um, we're client advocates. We run the Youth Emergent Leadership program, and we work directly with the district attorneys and the judges at the courts, um, dealing with the Alternative to Incarceration program. A lot of the young kids that catch the gun charges, we bring them into our program. Um, we help them with job readiness training, whether it's OSHA training, we help them get their GEDs. Uh, we direct them to different programs. Like, we got, uh, a program called Hood Coding, and this is also a guy who was previously incarcerated, and he teach coding, he teaches coding to younger kids inside the inner cities in the projects.
- JDJosh Dubin
Like, coding as in computer coding?
- SJSheldon Johnson
Like computer coding. He teaches coding. And, and we, we get them into our program, we help them with their resumes because one of the main things we realize is that outside of everything else, a lot of these kids, they, they're, they're impoverished. They don't have nothing, you know? So, we wanna be able to try to help them with some type of employment, right? That's number one. And then, we take them through our program. We have a 36-week, 10-point program. It deals with conflict resolution, um, it deals with, uh, knowing your rights, how to have a conversation with an officer. Uh, one of the things that I, that I take pride in while I was incarcerated, I was also in a theater program. Uh, I played Macbeth, um, on the stage. Um, I also was on the debate team. We debated against Stanford, Harvard, and Yale on the topic of the future of automation, and we crushed them. But one of the things I learnt in those, in those arenas is critical thinking and critical analysis, right? How do you critically think about a situation and also looking back, I realized something about myself is that I did not have a term that I coin called situational cognizance, right? As a kid, for some reason, I felt like I was not able to see the long-term consequences of my behavior. There was, like, a wall there. And I think, uh, I think a lot of these younger kids are also suffering from the same thing. They don't ... and the system sets you up to, to, to ... the system tricks you because you, you, you, you catch these cases and what they do is they slap you on the wrist, right? You catch this gun charge and they say, "Oh, no. We're just gonna give you six months. Don't worry about it." What they don't tell you is that gun charge is, is a pretext now to enhance your sentence when you catch another case. So, it's almost like a form of entrapment, right? And a lot of these kids don't understand that. They think that these cases that they're catching are just gonna disappear. They don't realize that there's a paper trail being established that's being created. There's a profile being created against you. And when you reach a certain threshold, there's a term that I like to say, they're gonna knock your fucking head off.... and you're gonna find yourself, a lot of these kids find themselves in situations where they get 25 years for an assault.
- JDJosh Dubin
You remember, uh, Scared Straight?
- SJSheldon Johnson
Yeah.
- JDJosh Dubin
All right. Um, I think the effectiveness of Scared Straight was because of the messenger. So, you're seeing the change right now, um, and this is not meant to, to, you know, blow sunshine up your ass 'cause you get plenty of that and you deserve it. But it's, it's the... I w- I was in, like, a situation last time I was here where I felt a little bit hopeless, and now I'm, I'm more... I'm trending toward more hopeful because Bruce Bryan, who was on the show, is a client advocate at the Queens Defenders. And, um, I don't wear that as a feather in my cap. That was just me, um... it was validation that if I get behind this man and give him new life, um, do my part in it, Lord knows there were others. Steve Zeidman at CUNY Law School, um, you know, um...
- SJSheldon Johnson
And if it wasn't for J- in all honesty, I f- I, I'm, I'm, I'm adamant about, to this day, if it wasn't for Josh and Allyson Hawk actually going to, uh, uh, uh... and, and Derek as well, Derek Hamilton, speaking to the district attorney like we were at a plateau where they just didn't s- they just was like, "Nah."
- JDJosh Dubin
But, but I don't want it to be about me at all. Here's what I wanted to say, is that you now are seeing the connections, um, and so, you know, Legal Aid was representing Bruce. There was a, an army of people, so... that all believed that he could make change happen and do positive things when he got out. So, now he's a client advocate at the Queens Defenders doing this kinda work, um, trying to explain to judges, "This person, don't let them be another Sheldon Johnson. Don't let them be another me or Derek Hamilton. They deserve counseling. They deserve a second chance. They deserve to help really be rehabilitated." Um, and then Sheldon comes over and starts working at the Queen Defender- Queens Defenders, which is the... it's like the, um, you know, the appointed council for people that can't afford an attorney, their criminal defense lawyers. So, to watch them out there advocating and trying to change, you know, hearts and minds about the community, you have to be on the ground doing it and getting in front of people. And I, I know I said it before, um, look at th- uh, you know, I'm very thoughtful in who I bring with me. Look at this beautiful man, and how he articulates himself and educated himself, and you wanna tell me, uh, that this couldn't have happened earlier? Um, he doesn't need anyone's sympathy, and he's not asking for it. It's something I admire quite a bit about him. Whenever anybody... you know, he doesn't want poor Sheldon, you know, "Well, how d- how could you have gone through this?" And he stops 'em ri- I've seen him do it right in their tracks. "L- listen, I did what... I just don't know that my life was worth throwing away." Um, but to watch them now on the other side of it, the change that we talked about that I'm like, "How do we change it? How do we do it?" Uh, it's starting to happen. Could we use, um, Jeff Bezos to sit down and, and think through how we can build a community center in East New York, in Harlem? Yeah, we could. The m- the means are out there to do it. All it takes is one person listening to this episode, um, that tells someone, that knows someone, and then, you know, progress is starting to happen, and we can just do it on the ground. But the reason why I mentioned Scared Straight is because sure I could go in there and talk to these kids. They're not gonna fucking listen to me. They're just not. I, I might be, um, certified, but I'm not...
- SJSheldon Johnson
Qualified.
- JDJosh Dubin
Right. I didn't, I didn't... I can't a- I can sympathize, but I can't empathize. You know, I go through that talking sometimes, like, you know, to fighters that I manage, right? I do it with Shakur Stevenson. You know, he's like a little brother to me. I love him. Sometimes I feel like he, he... you know, the message might be better coming from J Prince than it is from me because he- he's more qualified. I try to wrap my head around what Shakur went through as a kid and growing up in Newark and the circumstance, but, he- you know, I think that there is a disconnect, and I have to be big enough to recognize that, um, and say, "Yeah, you know, maybe I'm not the right person." But, you know, you're telling me he's not gonna inspi- And they're doing it. They're getting judges to change their mind. They're getting prosecutors to think twice.
- SJSheldon Johnson
We just got one guy, he, um, he shot at his brother without going into the details of his case. He has attempted murder charge, and, um, we now have him in our program. They originally were talking about giving him 15 years. He's been in our program for a couple of months. We, we set him up, we helped him get his resume. He's, he's working towards his GED, and he's in the Hood Coding program. Um, we also have him in an aggression replacement training program. And now, the district attorney is considering giving him five years probation. So, they went from 15 years, and this kid is doing amazing. Like, he's just picking up the codings. The guy that I spoke to, he, he said that this, this kid is just... is like a sponge. He's just soaking it up so fast. But this is just one example of...... how we kind of level the playing field and create opportunities. I think that key you spoke, that word you spoke about earlier is- is so crucial to the context of this conversation.
- JRJoe Rogan
(sniffs)
- SJSheldon Johnson
Opportunities, right? How do we create the opportunities for these kids to be able to provide? Living in New York City ain't no joke, man. The cost of living is- is- is ridiculous. Um, so how do we create these opportunities? How do we... So, now, also what we're doing, we going to the schools and we talking to the teachers. We talking to the teachers and the principals, and we asking them, "We're not even gonna wait till you get to the courtroom." We're asking the teachers and the principals, "Who in your classroom do you think needs help? Which kids in your classroom are the most, giving you the most trouble?" And they give us names, and we go and we talk to them, and we try... We getting them involved in our program, um, but it's all about opportunity, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, kids sometimes need to see someone. Not- not- not sometimes, always need to see someone who's done something from a similar situation.
- SJSheldon Johnson
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Where they realize, like, there is a path out of this.
- SJSheldon Johnson
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
'Cause if you don't see a path out of this, you just see a path towards doing what the other people in your environment are doing, and that's how all human beings react. If you're in a bad environment with a bad group of human beings, the chances of you going down that same path are extraordinary.
- SJSheldon Johnson
It's our own behavior.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes. And from someone like you, they can see this is not a given. There's a way to do this. There's a way to get out of this, and there's a guy who's already gone the wrong way who could say, "You know what? I figured it out, and I'm gonna help you." The difference between someone like you saying it versus some uninspired counselor is massive. It's massive.
- 1:15:00 – 1:29:44
Yeah. …
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, it speaks to you and your character that you want to do this, that you've dedicated yourself to doing this.
- SJSheldon Johnson
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's where real change comes from. That's- that's where real help comes from. Real help comes from someone, as you said, who's qualified to do it.
- SJSheldon Johnson
Comes from the same place that you came from and that you can identify, because, uh, being able to identify is- is- is- is a critical component, like you said. Like, you know, this- this is... Is- Is this someone who can identify, empathize with what I'm going through, where I'm at right now in my life? Um, like a lot of the young kids, they- they- they're involved in- in- in the gangs. Um, and we have this- this- this reculturalization program, right, um, where we are trying to teach them, because in- in many of our communities, the gangs have become a part of the culture. Like, you, you have parents who are gang members. You got the kids who are in communities and- and- and- and it's just... It's- it's just saturated with gang culture; language, dress, music, food, everything else. So, we trying to extract them out of these places and say, "Okay, these... This is something that you can do differently." We taking them to different places. We taking them to HBCU so that they can see what people who look like them look like when they're going to college. This can be you. This is some of the... Take 'em in the classrooms to meet with the professors. Uh, we have a- a- a financial literacy course with Chase Bank, actually works with us, and we teach them how to establish credit, how to open up a checking account, how to open up a savings account. And at the end of that particular, uh, five-week program, we actually take them to the bank and we give them $25 so that they can open up their own bank accounts, so that they can understand the difference between... The money that you obtain from the streets and the money that you get working legitimately is two different kinds of money. You can't appreciate the money that you get from the streets, but that money that you've been working all week for eight hours a day, 40 hours a week, at the end of the weekend, you can see that direct deposit when it goes into your account. You can take that card and you can actually utilize it to- to withdraw your money out the bank. That's a big difference. Civic engagement. You know, how- how- how can some of these kids feel like they have a voice in their communities when they're not making no decisions in their communities? We go into the rallies. We take them to the rallies out of Albany. Um, yesterday, they went to a rally. Last week, we went to a rally about Treatment Not Jails. How to, uh, set up what they call, um, diversion courts for people who have substance abuse problems. Instead of sending them to prison, they need treatment, and the money that they save is clear. It's clear. When you do the math, the money that you save, it- the a- it costs almost up to $70,000 to incarcerate one person.
- JRJoe Rogan
But then there's the issue of privatized prisons.
- SJSheldon Johnson
Oh, that's- oh, that's-
- JRJoe Rogan
Which is insane.
- SJSheldon Johnson
That's disturbing.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's so disturbing.
- SJSheldon Johnson
That is very disturbing.
- JRJoe Rogan
They're using human beings as batteries to generate money. That's what it's like.
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah, we're trying to... We're trying to, um, take the charge out of their battery. We're trying to pull the plug out of the wall, because, you know, this is... These aren't controversial statistics, and I'm not gonna start spewing them, but we incarcerate at a rate that is, um... Dwarfs any other Western country. Um, any other civilized... Any- anywhere in the world, really.
- SJSheldon Johnson
Anywhere in the world. (laughs)
- JDJosh Dubin
(laughs) So, in any event, I was, you know, doing a relative comparison. So, how do we put those privatized prisons out of business? You know, we have to start, you know, on the ground, and for, uh... You know, it's almost like a- a- a rallying cry to myself, 'cause we get a lot of, um... Not a rallying cry to myself, but, um, the way I got from being a little less...... intimidated by the mountain to climb was taking a step back, really after the last episode and saying, "Well, what have we done? And how have we changed things?" Listen, I wasn't born a civil rights lawyer that was working on innocence cases. I have a, a trial strategy company called DRC. We do focus groups, mock trials on big cases, right? Try to unfold the thinking, um, of jurors in a jurisdiction where the case is gonna be tried. And we make demonstrative aids, and we are alleged experts in jury selection. And that became a platf- I said, "How could we use this as a platform?" Now that I'm operating the Perlmutter Center as well. So just being in the boxing industry, um, speaking to the, Jay-Z's team at Roc Nation, and Jay-Z and his mom, "How can we do this?" And we, he has something called the Shawn Carter Foundation.
- SJSheldon Johnson
Mm-hmm.
- JDJosh Dubin
It's a remarkable ... H- it flies way under the radar. Have you ever heard of it?
- SJSheldon Johnson
Yes.
- JDJosh Dubin
All right. Do you know what it does?
- SJSheldon Johnson
Not exactly.
- JDJosh Dubin
All right. So it's kind of, um, a- a- it's kind of remarkable that people know it because of his name and they've heard of it, but no one really knows like what it does. They take children from, really from the, all over the country, a lot of them are in the tri-state area that have difficult circumstances. A lot of them come from single family households, and they, they, um, not, they're not just mentoring them from high school, um, but they are trying to do some of the things that Sheldon talked about. They do a college tour. Um, it's run by a woman named Danya Diaz, um, and, um, really Gloria Carter and a woman named Miss Archer. And I, I saw what they were doing and I said, "W- if we took these kids and created a fellowship program where we pay their last year of college, and five of them do it every summer and work on wrongful conviction cases at my consulting firm at DRC, and also are a resource to my students who are taking an internship for the Perlmutter Center, and are working on wrongful conviction cases, and have them start a social media campaign." They spearheaded the Free Bruce Bryant social media campaign. And watching this program, these kids, if they're given the opportunity, three of them now work for me full-time. One of them is the mail intake coordinator at the Perlmutter Center for Legal Justice. So she is receiving mail from inmates and helping screen which cases we might want to investigate. Um, her name is Samelia McFarlane. There's a o- girl that works at my firm, um, doing advertising, um, and, uh, publicity, her name is Jayla Madry. She, she made a presentation to me the other day. I was f- fucking blown away that this girl was ... she was passionate about marketing, not advertising, marketing, um, and she works at my consulting firm. And she made a presentation to me, you know, that it had a level of detail and ideas about how we can become, you know, increase our awareness and I, I was just thinking to myself, you know, "All right, so this is the change that we're making happen." And, um, it was just an idea that I had. I didn't actually think, um, that Jay-Z and his mom and Danya would go for it, so I was reluctant to pitch them the idea, and just being able to say, "Well, what do you have to lose by, you know, putting it out there?" And they have been remarkably supportive. Um, so I think that, like, there's a lot of people that want to help.
- SJSheldon Johnson
Yeah.
- JDJosh Dubin
You know? Sheldon and I were talking about it before we came and we all, we often think, like, "How can listeners help?" There is not ... If you have an idea like I had, just try to put the next foot in front of the foot that's behind you, and just keep walking forward and don't be afraid to ask. There is not a, a public defender's office in this country, there is not a civic engagement organization that if you call them and say, "I wanna volunteer," or, "I'm interested in helping," that will turn you away. You just have to say, "All right, I could sit here and talk about it," um, and, you know ...
- SJSheldon Johnson
Until it happens to you.
- JDJosh Dubin
(laughs)
- SJSheldon Johnson
Right? You know, we talk about, uh, uh, uh, not to cut you off, right? But you just-
- JDJosh Dubin
No. I need, I need cutting off. Go on.
- SJSheldon Johnson
I just wanted to segue into somebody ... To talk about, like, the, remember the opioid crisis, right? You know, there's been an opioid crisis in my community since I could remember. People were dying off heroin. And it didn't become an issue until it was affecting white America, right? But my thing is, had you dealt with it from the beginning, (laughs) it would've never became a situation later on. So it's this idea where people, we have a tendency to say, "Okay, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm just gonna turn away and I'm not gonna pay attention to it. I'm gonna turn a blind eye and I'm gonna act like it doesn't exist until it hits home." And then sometime when it hits home, it's too late.
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah, like, I, I think it takes, like, um, something to happen to somebody for them to become an advocate, right? Michael J. Fox wasn't a Parkinson's advocate until it happened for ... but that's great that he decided to do that.
- SJSheldon Johnson
Absolutely.
- JDJosh Dubin
Remarkable. But I think that Sheldon makes a great point, right? Um, w- we're a society of, um ... we're a society that likes to sit back, um, and, and complain. (laughs)
Episode duration: 2:36:21
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