Joe Rogan Experience #2101 - Bret Weinstein

Narrator 0:00 (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

Bret Weinstein 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays) Very funny text you sent me the other day. You said, "I hope we have something to talk about." (laughs)

Bret Weinstein 0:18 Well, you know, the, the fact is, the world's gotten kind of calm, so...

Joe Rogan 0:22 (laughs)

Bret Weinstein 0:23 I was hoping, uh, I looked out the window of the hotel this morning, thinking the weather might help us. No, boring as can be.

Joe Rogan 0:29 It's beautiful, birds chirping, while who knows what lies on the horizon. Um, I did not watch the Super Bowl, but I got a ton of messages from people that watched it that are like, "What the fuck is going on?" Like, the Super Bowl was a gigantic propaganda camp- campaign, and there's Pfizer ads and weird woke commercials, and...

Bret Weinstein 0:49 It was, it was bizarre. Uh, I did watch it, you know, I had nothing else to do and I probably wouldn't have watched it otherwise, but, but I did watch it and it was like some running inside joke. You had to know who these people were in order to even just be with the flow. I mean, obviously the game is what it is, but all of the stuff surrounding it was like, you're either embedded in this culture or it's kind of a head-scratcher.

Joe Rogan 1:15 I did not see any of it, so I don't, I wasn't watching the Super Bowl last night. I was busy, so I don't know what happened.

Bret Weinstein 1:22 Uh, i- well, let's put it this way, I'm not a football aficionado by any stretch, but it was a pretty exciting game. I mean, it came down to the last seconds of overtime and, uh, you know, it was a hell of a comeback, so...

Joe Rogan 1:36 There are a ton of conspiracies about the way it was officiated, and that, the, the fix was in with Travis Kelce being sponsored by Pfizer, and Taylor Swift, and Taylor Swift's music catalog being owned by some mega-corporation that has shady ties. (laughs)

Bret Weinstein 1:54 Well, I have to say, I was watching it and I, you know, I didn't have a dog in the fight. I wasn't really rooting for either team. I was just trying to get the sense of, uh, you know, what, what the game was like, um, but I did find myself, in the end, rooting against Taylor Swift.

Joe Rogan 2:09 (laughs)

Bret Weinstein 2:10 And I...

Joe Rogan 2:11 This is, uh, the Biden thing that they posted.

Bret Weinstein 2:14 After his bedtime.

Joe Rogan 2:15 "Just like we drew it up." And it's Biden with these, you know, red robot eyes. Why would they do that? Why, why, just why would they make that? Like, that, just that alone, like, what are you saying? Like, what are you doing? Like, imagine that's the president of the United States. Just, I want you to imagine Ronald Reagan if, if social media was alive, posting a photograph like that. Or Bill Clinton.

Bret Weinstein 2:39 Well, I mean, I do know what they're doing, right? This is, they, they have a very weak meme game, but they do have moments when they show some kind of spark in this regard, and I detest it. I think they have an obligation to be above this stuff and to not, uh, troll, but, you know, in a world where Trump is a political force, they're trying to, uh, you know, they're trying to build a, a game in the same arena, and they're, they're gonna get crushed, but, um, but that's why they did it, you know? And obviously, it's, it's the machine that did it. Biden had to do it.

Joe Rogan 3:15 It's kind of amazing that the left can't meme.

Bret Weinstein 3:18 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:20 'Cause they're really bad at it, because they're denying so many truths. Like, in order to adhere to the ideology, you have to be so rigid in what you accept as truth, and there's so many things that just don't jive with that, that you can't really meme well when you're doing that. Like, what memes are, is pointing things out li- th- and exaggerating them in a way where people kind of know that this is the case, and then you make a preposterous image and everybody laughs. But the left can't really do that, because a lot of those memes are very offensive and funny.

Bret Weinstein 3:57 Well, I, I think it has, it's actually a window into not really the left. I mean, as you know, I don't, I, I feel myself of the left, but I don't relate-

Joe Rogan 4:09 As do I.

Bret Weinstein 4:09 ... to these people at all.

Joe Rogan 4:11 Or, nor do I.

Bret Weinstein 4:11 And-

Joe Rogan 4:12 It's, something weird happened and we got kicked out. (laughs)

Bret Weinstein 4:14 Yeah, it got taken over by something diabolical.

Joe Rogan 4:17 Yeah.

Bret Weinstein 4:18 And you know, what you're pointing to, it's the same thing. It has no sense of humor, right?

Joe Rogan 4:23 Right.

Bret Weinstein 4:23 They laugh, but they have no sense of humor. They have no, no, uh, ability to juxtapose things so that you suddenly see something in the way, something, you know, a funny joke works. They can't meme because they're not really, you know, this is some corrupt cabal behind the scenes that arranges a set of, uh, you know, policies that aren't coherent together because they're about something that's never been discussed with us, and so it's not a natural for... You know, you can't really build a culture around it because it's incoherent to begin with.

Joe Rogan 5:00 Right.

Bret Weinstein 5:00 So, they just, they have no, they, they're bad at humor. Memes is a special kind of humor that has, you know, arisen online, and the rules of it... Actually, I wanted to talk to you about this. The rules of it are different from normal humor. I was trying to phrase something on Twitter today to make it funny and I was realizing the difference between a tweet and, you know, what I've seen you do in your club, right? Where in your club you can actually structure a joke that isn't funny until four lines in.

Joe Rogan 5:39 Right.

Bret Weinstein 5:39 Because your audience isn't going anywhere.

Joe Rogan 5:41 Right.

Bret Weinstein 5:41 On Twitter you need to keep them on board with the tweet so they don't scroll to the next one, right? So there has to be some juice in the beginning in order to get to the punchline, but the, you know. Anyway, I'd be curious what you think about w- what the different rules are for humor in the different contexts, but even just the structural differences is profound online.

Joe Rogan 6:01 Well, one of the best examples of how the tide has changed is the Babylon Bee out-Onions The Onion. The Onion is essentially dormant.

Bret Weinstein 6:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 6:10 The Onion was like, the dominant force of satire, forever. And they were so good. They were so good.And then something happened where there's, like, places they can't go. It's like a runner being limited to, like, a certain amount of miles per hour, when that mi- the, the, the speed that you're limited to cannot compete with the best runners.

Bret Weinstein 6:35 W- I think it's actually a manifestation of some- of, of a larger pattern that you can see very clearly when it's about humor and satire, and you don't see it as clearly elsewhere. But when The Onion was funny, it was a political force, and so it had to be targeted by things that it would have opposed, right? By things that it would have mocked and, and revealed. And so the fact that it's been neutered makes perfect sense if you imagine whoever it is that was galled by being revealed by The Onion. It doesn't make sense if you imagine that The Onion is in some competitive environment where it's trying to win market share by being hilarious, right? Why would you take a hot property like The Onion and ruin it? Well, the question is, are you trying to accomplish something political by getting rid of, um, a, a powerful force, a force of ridicule? Or are you trying to compete economically? And we see this in lots of places. Why would social media platforms embrace censorship, right? Everybody wants to be in a social media en- environment that's lively. It doesn't want one that's heavily constrained.

Joe Rogan 7:48 Right.

Bret Weinstein 7:48 And yet, these would-be competitors are behaving, they're colluding, effectively, to shut out messages that lots of people want to hear.

Joe Rogan 7:56 Do you think that that's because they're worried about government intervention and some sort of repercussions for not adhering to whatever guidelines the government wants you to do? I mean, this clearly seems to be the case when you look at, like, the Twitter Files. The Twitter Files, which has gotten almost no press in the mainstream media, or I should say the corporate-controlled media, but has been extensively covered by independent journalists, because it's so shocking. Because you're seeing the government actively campaign to get factual information removed from Twitter because it's inconvenient. And most of the social media campaigns, most of the social media programs, whether, whether it's, uh, the, the companies, whether it's Facebook or Instagram or... Most of them have complied to a certain extent. You know, at least limited the reach of certain things. Like, there was one that Tucker did famously on COVID, and, um, the, whatever government organization that was contacting them, I think it was the FBI, was trying to get them to take it down. And they wouldn't take it down, but they limited the reach substantially by, like, 50%. But they, they had ruled that they cannot take it down because it's factual. And so there's no... It's not like this was misinformation. So then it falls into this weird category that we've just recently heard. It's recently entered the zeitgeist, which is mal-information. Mal-information is factual information that could be used in a damaging way.

Bret Weinstein 9:33 I know. Heather and I have been screaming about this one since the day that memo emerged.

Joe Rogan 9:38 (laughs) It's wild.

Bret Weinstein 9:38 Like, what the hell? You're actually gonna put that on paper?

Joe Rogan 9:41 Yeah, it's wild.

Bret Weinstein 9:42 Right? But I think the answer to your question is, we, in the public, are under the misapprehension that the game is about money. And the reason that we're under that misapprehension is that traditionally, money has been a pretty good proxy for power. And what's happened is the game is still very much about power and control, but money doesn't mean what we thought it did. Money-

Joe Rogan 10:08 In what way?

Bret Weinstein 10:09 Well A, I think we're being set up. That, you know, your ability to store wealth in money is dependent on rational policy, right? If somebody is gonna print money in order to get themself out of a crisis, then they're robbing you without ever gaining access to your bank account. So the value of what you've stored is under somebody else's control. Now, if you imagine that the power players understand this game, that they know that... The way I would put it is, is this, money has two values. One is as a means of exchange. Can you buy stuff with it? And money still works the way it always did from that perspective. The other is, can you store your wealth there? And at least with respect to dollars, it used to be the case that you could store your wealth in dollars. But the power players are aware that dollars aren't going to continue to mean what they have traditionally meant. And presumably, they have other strategies for storing wealth in ways that they're going to be able to recover it after whatever happens. Um, I would recommend people... I, I hope I have the title right. There's a book called The Great Taking written by a, uh, an elite Wall Street insider who reveals certain changes that have, um, been introduced into the law that most of us are unaware of. So for example, there's a change in which you think you own a stock in the way that people used to own stocks, but stocks used to actually have a physical manifestation. You had a sheet of paper that you would put in, in your safe. And what has happened is you now own a stock and you can cash out anytime you like the way you always could. But if the entity, the underlying entity goes bankrupt, then you don't actually own the stock. You actually own an IOU, which can be valueless.And we don't know this. In the public, we think we're trading stocks the way we always did. Um, but w- but what has happened is, something that had a physical manifestation, in which you could have a battle in a court about who owns this piece of paper, is now not about a pi- a piece of paper. It's about a right, and that right has a- an arcane structure that most of us are unaware of. So, the question is, at some point do things that you are- that you think you own, do rules get revealed to you that tells you that you don't actually own those things anymore, um, and that, you know, your f- your financial position is therefore not the one that you thought you were in?

Joe Rogan 12:59 Hmm. So, what do you think this strategy is about? Like, what do you- what do you think-

Bret Weinstein 13:06 Power-

Joe Rogan 13:07 ... power-

Bret Weinstein 13:07 ... power and control.

Joe Rogan 13:08 But do you think that this is- the- the devaluation of money, what is- what's the end purpose of the devaluation of money?

Bret Weinstein 13:17 Well, I th- uh, so let's-

Joe Rogan 13:19 Is it central bank digital currency?

Bret Weinstein 13:22 That is a mechanism for the ultimate purpose, which is power and control. And, uh, I should point out that in the way I think about things, I take that as an assumption. I'm not arguing that as a conclusion, although I do think you can discover that that is the pattern by looking at all of the evidence about what the- the rent-seeking elites care about and don't care about. But I would say it is a comparatively safe assumption, that it is about control and power, because it's always been about that. In fact, evolutionarily, that's really why creatures look the way they do, right? E- even, you know, if you take a human being, for example, you're composed of something like 30 trillion cells of 200 different kinds. All of those cells contain the same information, but they all agree to act differently, because it's in their interest to not go rogue, right? They could all independently try to reproduce, like single-celled organisms, but if they agree to collaborate, they surrender a lot of capability to reproduce, you know? 30 trillion cells can produce a lot of offspring cells. What they get is an increased amount of control over their environment. So that's what evolution is doing by organizing things in the way it is. Its purpose is to put your genes as far into the future as it can lodge them, but power and control is- is the game, the evolutionary game that is being played. And humans play it differently and, you know, we go from being a highly adaptable, somewhat technological creature. You know, our Stone Age ancestors were technological in the sense that they could flint- flintknapp a weapon, um, or a tool, but not highly technological. But nonetheless, the game has persisted as we have become organized into larger and larger social entities and to societies, and it hasn't fundamentally changed now. So, what these elites are doing is they are attempting to gain control, to consolidate it, and to arrange to protect it into a future which they see as increasingly chaotic and dangerous. As the people of Earth become aware that they have no plan for the future, that most of us have nothing meaningful to do with our lives, that w- even the systems that feed us and sustain us energetically are built on rickety premises, they know that there's a reckoning coming, and so they're preparing for it. And, you know, what you saw at the Super Bowl, or didn't see but might have, is the distraction, right? The stuff that we are fed so that we'll think about things that other than our long-term prospects in light of, uh, elites who, frankly, don't give a shit about us.

Joe Rogan 16:21 Have you seen what happened in, uh, Europe with the farmers?

Bret Weinstein 16:24 (laughs) I've been watching that, yes.

Joe Rogan 16:26 Yeah. It seems like they, at least temporarily, have won.

Bret Weinstein 16:30 Th- they have won, but-

Joe Rogan 16:33 Let's explain what we're talking about.

Bret Weinstein 16:35 All right. Well, may- maybe you should explain what you've seen. I've watched massive protests of farmers who are increasingly, um, angry and organized about regulations that make, um, farming increasingly difficult, unproductive, and unprofitable.

Joe Rogan 16:58 If I was a conspiratorially-minded person, what I would say is what they're trying to do is take over these farms, and the best way to do that is to enact legislation and rules that limit their b- profitable... Well, first of all, farms are always very difficult to run. They're very difficult to maintain profitability. They're- th- they're- they struggle. And it's a terrible shame that the people that provide us the thing that we need to survive, ultimately food, that we've done something to these people to make it more difficult for them to do it while it's already insanely difficult. It requires incredible hours, i- in- incredibly difficult, highly stressful. There's so many moving pieces just to provide food for all these people, and they started enacting legislation to limit the amount of fertilizer they're allowed to use, to limit the amount of animals they have. I know in Ireland, they- they proposed something where they want to kill a certain amount of, uh, the cows, because they're saying that the cows produce methane. It's fucking insane. It's not scientific. It's not something voted on. It's not something agreed upon by scientists, biologists, certainly not, uh, debated.... a- when you're talking about regenerative farming practices, like, people that have provided significant options for farming the way ... Like, whatever the issues that they have, where they can actually sequester carbon in the soil and make these farms carbon-neutral. It's been demonstrated. It's not theory. It's been done in America. Polyface Farms, uh, White Oaks Pastures are two great examples of that, but there's many regenerative farms. Can be done. And for whatever reason, they have decided to enact these harsh limitations on these farmers' abilities to provide food for people. Cynically, when I look at something like that, I'm like, "I think what they would do is do that, cripple the farmers' ability to make money, the farms go under, they take over, they control the food supply."

Bret Weinstein 19:10 Right. And you s- y- I hear you, uh, working overtime not to see what's in front of you. And I, I agree. We all have-

Joe Rogan 19:19 Well, I'm just being fair.

Bret Weinstein 19:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:21 You know? I'm, I'm just m- making it as ... I'm, I'm trying to steel man it as much as possible.

Bret Weinstein 19:27 Right. But if you take the, if you take the objective of the game as profit, it's not exactly clear what the end game is. If you take the objective of the game as p- a, as power and control-

Joe Rogan 19:40 Yeah.

Bret Weinstein 19:41 ... then it's pretty clear.

Joe Rogan 19:43 That's the best way to control the food supply.

Bret Weinstein 19:45 I mean-

Joe Rogan 19:45 You just put the farmers outta business.

Bret Weinstein 19:47 Who's gonna challenge you-

Joe Rogan 19:48 Right.

Bret Weinstein 19:49 ... if their ability to eat requires them to embrace whatever nonsense-

Joe Rogan 19:53 Yes.

Bret Weinstein 19:53 ... you're feeding them? Yes.

Joe Rogan 19:54 And all you would have to do is start some sort of famine and just make it very difficult for people to get food, and people panic, and-

Bret Weinstein 20:02 Mm-hmm. Right.

Joe Rogan 20:02 And when people panic, especially people with limited resources and limited financial ability, they, they concede.

Bret Weinstein 20:09 They do. M-

Joe Rogan 20:10 And that's what we saw during the pandemic. I mean, it was a, it was a great test run to see how much control you can really have over people as soon as you have some sort of major issue that everyone globally has to deal with.

Bret Weinstein 20:25 Right. Um, of course, simultaneously, they make it difficult for those of us who recognize what is, uh, unfolding to make ourselves self-sufficient. So, you see weird regulations against, you know, ancient things like unpasteurized dairy, uh-

Joe Rogan 20:44 Yeah.

Bret Weinstein 20:45 ... as if that was some major threat to people or something that you should override their ability to judge for themselves. Uh, but the, the pattern of seeking power and control ... If you imagine an antagonist, rent-seeking elites, for lack of a better term, and you imagine that they are, however they get there, completely amoral with respect to us normies. They don't ... I don't know that they hate us, but they don't care if we live or die. Um, if you imagine that, then you begin to see that major patterns point in the same direction, all right? This attempt to control agriculture, which suggests some later chapter in which hunger is going to be used to, to keep people in line, is consistent with vaccine mandates that were issued in the military, which drove out all of the people who would naturally resist immoral orders, com- creating a more compliant force. Now, you could imagine that that was an accident. You could imagine that, uh, public health officials, uh, let their fears get away from them, and they mandated these things out of, uh, a, uh, a mis-, um, a misunderstanding of the protection of that force. But I think the most parsimonious explanation is that, actually, a, a force built of people who take whatever orders you give them is desired for some scenario we have yet to see.

Joe Rogan 22:26 So, what happened in Europe was these farmers started fighting back. They started dumping manure everywhere, and they started blockading and, and d- doing all these things to protest. And apparently, at least temporarily, they've won. Now, what kind of repercussions they're gonna face because of this is what's gonna get really weird, and that'll be very telling to see what they do to attack these farmers. But it seems like part of the problem was the public was unanimously in favor of the farmers. No one thought any of this stuff made sense. No one thought that killing all these cows made any sense. No one thought that limiting the amount of fertilizer these guys could use or the way these guys can produce food made any sense. And I think most people fundamentally recognize that farming is not just difficult, but it's, it's fragile, that they're, they don't have a lot of wiggle room. And so, for these people to rise up the way they did, that's very courageous.

Bret Weinstein 23:32 It's very courageous, and we are ... It reveals that we are in territory that was just simply not anticipated by the US founders, by any of the important founders of the Western nations. All right? Nobody envisioned some sort of an attack from within, in which the ability to generate enough food for the population would be targeted. All right? That seems an insane thing that one doesn't need to create rules against, because it would be ... Uh, you know, i- if we view through a couple century-old lens, it would be a suicidal move, but that's not the case anymore. You're dealing with a global elite, and that global elite has options that were, you know, unthinkable in the 18th century. So, that said, um-I don't think these people, whoever they are, and whatever it is they are doing, I do not believe that they understand the world nearly as well as they think they do.

Joe Rogan 24:39 Do you think that's just because they're removed? I mean, if you're, uh, you're one of the billionaires that's involved in the World Economic Forum, how much contact do you have with regular people? What, what is your, what are your perceptions of regular human beings? And if you've been living like that for a long time... I liken it to, like, celebrities, who just d- have no concept of how other people think or behave or feel, because they've been famous and wealthy for so long, and adored for so long. They don't understand the plight of the average human being.

Bret Weinstein 25:08 They don't understand, and they don't care, because they don't see themselves as headed back that direction.

Joe Rogan 25:13 Right.

Bret Weinstein 25:13 It's a rare elite that, even if they came from humble beginnings, it's a rare elite that maintains that mindset in any significant way. Because it becomes an obstacle, you know, it becomes a limiter of what strategies you can deploy.

Joe Rogan 25:30 Yeah, and encourages empathy, which is bad for business. (laughs)

Bret Weinstein 25:33 It's... (laughs) Very well said, Joe. Um, but the problem is, they also... The elites, especially ones who have, to some degree or other, arranged their ascent, right? They've done something that makes them feel like they must be very well-informed, they must be very clever, right? There's some component of, of their power that is the result of some moment of cleverness in their past, or maybe more than one. But it makes it difficult for them to remember how much of what they accomplished actually had nothing to do with them. It had to do with systems built by other people that they know nothing about. And the tendency for them to see the part of the puzzle that they're comfortable with, right? Maybe it's the strategy of power and control. But to not appreciate the parts of the puzzle that nobody's expert at, right? You're, they're dealing with complex systems, layered upon each other. The ability to disrupt that stuff in a way that it stops functioning, such that even the elites who make this happen are not going to like the world that they're going to create. They may not even be able to live in it, right? That's the, the biggest concern I have, right?

Joe Rogan 26:51 Right.

Bret Weinstein 26:51 If, if I thought that they were diabolical but knew what they were doing, then my sense is, well, all right, we're in for a bad hundred years. And that's terrible, but that's not extinction. Right? I think we're actually headed for extinction because I think these people have no idea what they're playing with. They do not understand what needs to be preserved in order to keep the world functional enough for them to live in.

Joe Rogan 27:15 How is that conversation not taking place? That's what doesn't make sense to me.

Bret Weinstein 27:20 Well-

Joe Rogan 27:21 Is it coming from a place where they never feel like they're ever going to go back to poverty, or to any sort of chaotic world that could, that we could envision if everything falls apart? They think they'll be protected ultimately because of resources, influence, power.

Bret Weinstein 27:37 Think about it this way. Let's say that you're really good at the game of power and control. And you manage to take what would ordinarily be a profit-making entity, uh, uh, a social media platform, and you get it to sign up for rules of censorship that are bad for business but good for keeping dangerous ideas from spreading. Well, then you're also likely to utilize that mechanism to shut down the very discussions that you need to hear. So, uh, if you think about the question, you know, and, um, I, I don't know how accurate it is that, that monarchs had court jesters. I don't know how regular that was, whether it was an exception. But if you think about the position of a monarch, who needs to know what's actually going on, but nobody around them is going to tell them, because-

Joe Rogan 28:32 Right.

Bret Weinstein 28:32 ... it's too dangerous to tell the king that the people think he's an asshole.

Joe Rogan 28:36 Right.

Bret Weinstein 28:36 Right? So you empower a jester, maybe you put a ridiculous hat on him, and he speaks in a weird way so that anything he says is dismissible. But the point is, that guy is actually in a position to tell you what you need to know. Right? He can make jokes that are funny in the street that you're not gonna hear 'cause you're the king.

Joe Rogan 28:53 Yeah.

Bret Weinstein 28:53 Right? So, these new power elites, they don't have a mechanism that overcomes the control that keeps people from telling them exactly what they need to know. You know? Look, if, if you're one of these people, you're going to screw up the world that you cannot escape. And nobody can tell you that because you've managed to create a very pleasant world of people who tell you what you want to hear. So, that's the danger you're putting us in, and we're mad about it for two reasons. We're mad about it 'cause you're plotting against our ability to guide our own ship. That's natural, and you expect that part. But we're also mad at you because you're screwing up the world, and it's not yours to destroy. You're not gonna leave a planet for my children. You're okay with that, I get it. But you're not gonna leave a planet for your children either. So wake the fuck up.

Joe Rogan 29:46 I think they think their children will be protected. And I think they... Just m-... You know, it's, it's the old phrase, "Rules for thee but not for me." A- we see that with, like, the World Economic Forum serving beef short rib. You know? It's like, what, what do you really believe, and why are you saying what you're saying? And do you think that because you're so protected now, because you go from limousine to private jet to major hotel surrounded by armed security back and forth, your interaction with a person who's, like, trying to deal with their bills, trying to deal with their bullshit, trying to deal with, you know, mortgage payments, and whether or not they can afford to pay their taxes, and that kind of shit. You're completely removed from any financial strife. I mean, once you get into that caddy-... You're n-... I mean, I'm nowhere near those people, and I don't worry about it, so they must not worry about it.They can't. They, they can't ever think that it's going to be an issue, because it's not an issue. It's just like human beings have this inability to recognize anything that they don't immediately interact with. Everything else becomes abstract. Like, even the whole climate emergency. It's a great thing to talk about. It's a great talking point for people that need something to wave a flag for, and scream and protest, and block the highway for. It's a great m- mechanism in that regard. But are you really worried about it every day? I'm not worried about it every day. Every day I wake up, I'm like, "It's pretty much just like yesterday." It's not that much different.

Bret Weinstein 31:21 No, I'm, I'm worried about it less and less, in fact.

Joe Rogan 31:23 I'm worried about it less and less as well. And also, because the way China's, uh, uh, uh, taking it on, which is not at all. China's building power plants left and right. They've got 100 coal plants being built right now, plus. More than 100, right? What was it, Jamie?

Narrator 31:37 Uh, I think so.

Joe Rogan 31:39 I think it was, like, close to 200. They're, they're not l- ... And they are the number one, them and India. They're the people that are dumping shit into the air. You gonna ... Killing cows isn't gonna put one half of 1% of a fucking dent in the amount of greenhouse gases that get emitted. It's not a lot.

Bret Weinstein 31:59 No, it ... Let's put it this way. I think we have to have one caution, which is just because they're using it to manipulate us doesn't mean that there's not some underlying truth there. But if I-

Joe Rogan 32:09 Yes.

Bret Weinstein 32:09 ... look at-

Joe Rogan 32:10 Good point.

Bret Weinstein 32:11 ... you know, where the water line was when I was a kid versus now, it hasn't budged. That alerts me to something. I do think I've seen a little bit of glacial retreat in places that I knew, but it's not a lot.

Joe Rogan 32:28 Well, also, isn't that ano- ... Um, regardless of whether or not people are polluting the world, and I think they 100% are, and I'm 100% on board. Look, if you go to Los Angeles from the 1960s and 1970s and look at the air, and then you look at the emission standards that were enacted, catalytic converters, the way they changed how cars work, it is much better now.

Bret Weinstein 32:50 So much better.

Joe Rogan 32:50 Substantially better. Clear indication that these regulations that were smart and intentional, they worked. They did something good. It's better. It still sucks, you know, but, but if you go to Mexico City, you realize there is a giant difference. I took photos when I flew into Mexico City for the UFC, and you c- ... It looks like there's a fire. It was like there's a fire on the ground. Like, there's so much smoke, and it's just an everyday part of their life. If they had the same regulations that they enacted in Los Angeles, that would lead to cleaner air and better health outcomes for pretty much all of their citizens. We all, we, we both agree to that.

Bret Weinstein 33:28 100%. I mean, in fact, when I travel to places like this and I think, "Oh, wouldn't it be cool to live here?" I always think, "Yup, and, you know, how much does your life expectancy go down because of the amount of pollutant you're breathing every day?" So yeah, good regulations are-

Joe Rogan 33:43 Critical.

Bret Weinstein 33:43 Critical. And in fact, we, we just moved, uh, recently from-

Joe Rogan 33:47 Don't tell anybody where you live.

Bret Weinstein 33:48 (laughs) I'm not gonna tell them where I live, but-

Joe Rogan 33:50 (laughs)

Bret Weinstein 33:50 ... I did move from Oregon to Washington. And Oregon and Washington deal very differently.

Joe Rogan 33:54 You moved from the frying pan right into the fire, sir. (laughs)

Bret Weinstein 33:57 R-

Joe Rogan 33:57 You're a glutton for punishment.

Bret Weinstein 33:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:59 What's wrong with you?

Bret Weinstein 34:00 I, um-

Joe Rogan 34:01 You need to get you a gun, bring you out to here to God's country.

Bret Weinstein 34:03 Uh-

Joe Rogan 34:04 Get yourself a ranch, Brett Weinstein.

Bret Weinstein 34:06 R- we've, we've got guns.

Joe Rogan 34:06 Get yourself a well.

Bret Weinstein 34:07 Yeah, a well-

Joe Rogan 34:09 (laughs)

Bret Weinstein 34:09 ... some guns, some solar.

Joe Rogan 34:10 Get yourself some longhorns you can slaughter once a year.

Bret Weinstein 34:13 Yeah. Um, but, but the point is, Oregon actually has regulations that you can't register your car if it puts out, um, significant pollution.

Joe Rogan 34:22 Mm-hmm.

Bret Weinstein 34:24 And Washington doesn't. Otherwise, they're almost identical states.

Joe Rogan 34:28 Politically.

Bret Weinstein 34:29 The difference between driving in Oregon where you don't ... You're not behind a truck that belches out that huge bunch of smoke and you're struggling to find the thing to turn off the vent, right? In Oregon, it was, it was a night and day difference even between those two states-

Joe Rogan 34:43 Hmm, because of those rules.

Bret Weinstein 34:44 ... because of the regulations.

Joe Rogan 34:46 Yeah.

Bret Weinstein 34:46 So I'm, I'm a big fan of elegant, light touch regulation that creates a big benefit for a small cost.

Joe Rogan 34:53 Also, we realize there's ... Listen, I am a car enthusiast. I love automobiles. The automobiles today that have the best emissions output are by far faster, handle better, safer. The ... Everything they do outperforms the stinky ones that were ruining the world. The, the benefit in terms of, like, the, the air has no negative net effect on the ability to make awesome cars. It just doesn't.

Bret Weinstein 35:27 Right. The, the cars are absolutely rad, the electric ones.

Joe Rogan 35:31 Yeah.

Bret Weinstein 35:31 Uh, I also have-

Joe Rogan 35:31 Not just electric ones. The electric ones, problematic. Here's why the electric one's problematic. At the fucking heart of every electronic device that uses batteries, you've got conflict minerals. And if you've ever seen my podcast with Siddharth Kara and you've read his book and you've seen the investigative journalism that that guy did where he risked his life to go into the Congo and show how these artesian mines that make cobalt or that mine cobalt, how it's actually being extracted from the ground. In your cellphone is likely conflict minerals that have come from the poorest of poor people on planet Earth literally farming with no protection. Like, hammering this stuff out, mining with babies on their back. Young girls who have infants on their back are mining this toxic shit that we need for our phones so we can tweet about global warming. That is wild. And as of right now, these things don't exist in terms of the way our batteries work. They don't exist without those kind of minerals. And whether or not they can be harvested ethically, seems like we can probably do it. It doesn't seem like it would be impossible. But China's not interested in it at all, and the people that run those mines are not interested in it at all. They want to make the most amount of money right now, and the best way is to keep people poor as fuck so that those people have to do that because there are no options. You get that from them, you extract enormous profits. The people that risk their lives and have terrible outcomes have no benefit from it.... and you continue business as usual, because you've been allowed to. Now, if that was in Ohio, if we found out that that was going down in Ohio, people would freak the fuck out. They would boycott those companies. They'd figure out how to buy things that didn't rely on that, and we would have to change. Politically, it would be so untenable, politically, to support slave labor and to support people w- living in the most abject poverty that you can imagine, the worst poverty on Earth, but yet are extracting some of the most valuable resources the Earth has. That's insane.

Bret Weinstein 37:42 Yeah. It's, it's crazy. Now, of course, the right answer to it is good governance, where we look at these-

Joe Rogan 37:48 Right.

Bret Weinstein 37:48 ... questions in the long term and we say, "Here's where we are. This isn't sustainable." What is it? What is the objective? How can we do the maximum amount with the minimum amount of damage? And we figure out how to move in a coordinated fashion in that direction, because it's in all of our interest to do so.

Joe Rogan 38:06 Right.

Bret Weinstein 38:06 But we can't do that while rent-seeking elites are conspiring to control us, arguably, out of existence. I mean-

Joe Rogan 38:15 Not just that, but trying to control discourse. Because discourse is what starts the European farmers getting together and overturning these, these regulations. Discourse is what starts people recognizing how unfair the structure of some of these, these systems are, and who's profiting, and why, and whether or not we want to support that. Whether, or whether or not this is a normal pattern of behavior for human beings when they have ultimate power. It has existed forever. Every king, every emperor, every person who ran giant groups of people did so ruthlessly with no regard for the people, ultimately. It was n- no one ever said like, "I've got so much money and I'm the king. I'm gonna make sure that my money is distributed to everybody. There's no hungry people. Everybody has food. Everybody has uh, uh, uh, a place to sleep." No one, no one's ever done that. They all do the exact same thing. When they have power, the ultimate power, they develop this idea that they deserve it and that it's theirs, and then they ruthlessly wield it, and they keep the people down. 'Cause the, if the people are down just enough... You know when I'm down to the point where they're gonna fight back and kill everybody? You want just under coup levels.

Bret Weinstein 39:30 Well, I mean, I think there's a little more richness to that story. I, I agree that almost without exception, leaders rule, uh, in their own enlightened self-interest. But there's a question about how enlightened they are. Y- you can have a monarch who understands that long term, their ability to rule is better served by, uh, protecting the people's interest more than some other leader who realizes, you know, I mean-

Joe Rogan 39:56 But isn't that rare to have a leader like that?

Bret Weinstein 39:58 Oh, yeah. I think it is.

Joe Rogan 39:58 Can you name any of them?

Bret Weinstein 40:00 (laughs) Uh, I would have a hard time-

Joe Rogan 40:01 Are these utopian leaders?

Bret Weinstein 40:03 No, I think it's, I think there's a spectrum, you know. You have people, you know, on the other end of the spectrum, like Pol Pot, right? And the idea is you only need one tool and the tool is, if I don't like you, you're dead.

Joe Rogan 40:17 Yeah.

Bret Weinstein 40:17 Right? So that's one way to do it, but it's not really a long-term strategy. And then we have everybody, you know...

Joe Rogan 40:24 But isn't it a long-term strategy in some places? Like Kim Jong-un seems to be doing a pretty good job with that.

Bret Weinstein 40:31 Uh... (sighs)

Joe Rogan 40:32 I don't see any relinquishing of that power.

Bret Weinstein 40:35 No, I don't see it either, but I-

Joe Rogan 40:36 It's not like they have massive resources.

Bret Weinstein 40:38 Well-

Joe Rogan 40:38 It's not like they're doing great.

Bret Weinstein 40:39 I'm n- I agree with you. I, I have to say it is a more effective strategy than I would like to imagine. But it doesn't look like a strategy that is going to effectively spread over time. Whereas if you-

Joe Rogan 40:54 Right.

Bret Weinstein 40:54 ... if you look at our system, and really, our system, you know... As much as you can say one mar- monarch is better than another, really, the point is the West has the alternative that is, um, the best plan going and probably the ble- best plan possible, the consent of the governed, in which we put aside our lineage level differences, and we collaborate with other people irrespective of what they look like, because they're good collaborators. That system is like wildfire with respect to creating, I hate to use the term growth, but growth is a good proxy for what it creates. It, it creates capacity, right? And the reason that so much of the world looked at the American experiment and decided that it wanted a piece of it was because America was an extremely dynamic place once it discovered that this was the way to do it, that putting aside monarchs altogether, giving people the right to consent or not over those who would rule them, and putting aside the many differences that existed at a, a genetic level between the populations that were here, that that is, it's lightning in a bottle.

Joe Rogan 42:04 Mm-hmm.

Bret Weinstein 42:05 So... And, and I believe that what's going on with these rent-seeking elites is that they have not really understood that story, and they have decided, um, that they, you know, they're gonna, they're gonna kill the goose that lays the golden eggs, and, um, they're not gonna be happy with the world that follows.

Joe Rogan 42:24 But isn't that what the Founding Fathers were trying to prevent by structuring our government in the way that they did?

Bret Weinstein 42:32 Yeah, my, my, uh, sense is they accidentally solved the most important puzzle because they needed to do it in order to get the colonies to agree to confederate.

Joe Rogan 42:43 Mm-hmm.

Bret Weinstein 42:44 And that, so by taking a bunch of different mini nation-like things and saying, "Well, what are the rules that will allow these people to trust a confederation is not gonna leave them with the short straw?" they built a system that actually does allow people from different races to do the same trick. And the idea that the thing that really makes the West special is that-We agree not to care about the shape of your nose, or the slant of your eyes, or the color of your skin, and the question is, well, all right, I've got some piece of the puzzle, who's got a compatible piece that we can put together and create wealth? Right? That's magic. If you're limited to your own racial group in order to make wealth, then the amount of wealth you can make is a lot tinier. So-

Joe Rogan 43:31 Right.

Bret Weinstein 43:31 ... this is just simply a better way of existing and, uh, as you well know, we were nowhere, it was not perfected, it was really just a prototype 10 years ago, 20 years ago. But what we've started to do is wreck it in favor of utopian notions that'll never work or a retreat to some kind of cryptic, oligarchic power, and none of these things are in a position to compete with that system from the point of view of discovering what's possible and bringing the value of it to the population of planet Earth.

Joe Rogan 44:05 In art, innovation, everything.

Bret Weinstein 44:07 Everything-

Joe Rogan 44:08 Technology, everything.

Bret Weinstein 44:08 Everything good that we should be trying to achieve-

Joe Rogan 44:11 Yeah.

Bret Weinstein 44:11 ... is achieved better with that mechanism.

Joe Rogan 44:12 But what's fascinating is that they're using this as, like you were saying, to kill the goose, the, th- that lays the golden egg. They're using all of these utopian social ideas and using them in this very weird, authoritarian way, and the people that are most promoting it are the people that are in control of all these systems. These are the people that are in control of the military-industrial complex, the people who control the pharmaceutical companies. They're the ones that, they want this struggle to be going on between people. They want this false sense that white supremacy is the number one problem that we f- we face o- in America right now.

Bret Weinstein 44:55 In a country where we elected a Black man twice.

Joe Rogan 44:57 Well, it's just nonsense.

Bret Weinstein 44:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:59 And it's, I think it promotes racism because it makes people that are, like, on the fence racist angry and they go the other way. They go hard. And there's a bunch of people that feel like they have to be racist because they're being discriminated against and no one cares, and for people that aren't thoughtful and people that don't spend a lot of time and, you know, really consider their position on things, I think they, they tend to react in a way that is, you know, you- you're, you're reacting in an impulsive way because you feel threatened, and it's not logical, and so it doesn't reflect your actual real values of how you really would think about people if everybody would just treat everybody as normal, everybody as in- as the same thing. You know? And that the idea that even the f- the goal of that itself, to aspire to a color-blind society is somehow racist, is, that doesn't make any sense.

Bret Weinstein 45:57 I think it's a pretty good... Th- this is exactly why I'm concerned that these people just don't know what they're doing.

Joe Rogan 46:04 Yeah.

Bret Weinstein 46:05 Right? They tried to create racial strife to distract from their, uh, their bankruptcy, their moral bankruptcy. Right? They were staving off the French Revolution by getting us to turn on each other. Well, that worked a little bit for a while, but it also created a lot of interest in talking about what they were up to and, uh, it created an entire alternative media space in which people who didn't want any part of that nonsense, um, actually, uh, gained credibility in the public's eyes, people who might never have been heard of in, in wider circles if not for this. So, they didn't anticipate that they were going to create an alternative to the media that they controlled. That's how little they understand. They didn't realize that at some point, if they tried to push the idea that, you know, fat is beautiful, that, uh, you're somehow morally defective if you're not attracted to trans people, by pushing that nonsense, they created a rebellion, they forced people to actually consider these things which made a lot of us reject them. And by rejecting them, there's now a, a very influential if not powerful group of people across a wide spectrum discussing what those elites are up to. Right? We even, I think, have elites of our own. I, I, I can't be certain, but Musk doesn't look like he's on their team to me.

Joe Rogan 47:47 He's not on their team.

Bret Weinstein 47:48 That's what I think.

Joe Rogan 47:49 Well, he's insanely wealthy and independent and an actual, legitimate genius in a world of fools.

Bret Weinstein 47:58 Right, and I think-

Joe Rogan 47:59 Not flawless.

Bret Weinstein 48:00 Not flawless.

Joe Rogan 48:01 H- he gets out of line every now and then, he gets a little wacky.

Bret Weinstein 48:04 He does.

Joe Rogan 48:04 But he's fun.

Bret Weinstein 48:05 He's restless.

Joe Rogan 48:06 He's a fun guy to have at the helm.

Bret Weinstein 48:08 And I think, uh, he looks at the, he looks at what is being plotted against us and sees it as a fun challenge to confront it, so that-

Joe Rogan 48:19 Yeah, and he has the resources to do it, unlike most people, and has the courage to do something like completely overpay for Twitter and then have the advertisers lock him out, and literally in a discussion with, with the guy from The New York Times he goes, "Go fuck yourself. Go fuck... Let me be clear, go fuck yourself."

Bret Weinstein 48:40 Yep.

Joe Rogan 48:40 "I don't care. You trying to blackmail me with money? Go fuck yourself."

Bret Weinstein 48:44 Right, and-

Joe Rogan 48:45 Nobody does that.

Bret Weinstein 48:46 Well, uh, I, on the one hand nobody does it, on the other hand I wonder why more people don't, because the fact is he's demonstrating that not only does it work, short-term it has costs, but long-term he's not exactly losing. Right?

Joe Rogan 49:00 No, but he's also, he's a child of the internet in the sense that, like, he makes memes, he posts memes. Like when you post that meme of Bill Clinton, or excuse me of Bill Gates-... next to the emoji of a pregnant man-

Bret Weinstein 49:15 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:15 ... and said, "When you want to lose a boner real quick."

Bret Weinstein 49:18 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:19 That's wild, because you can't even say, "Oh, fuck that guy, he's a dumbass." It's literally one of the smartest human beings alive and the wealthiest man alive.

Bret Weinstein 49:27 Right.

Joe Rogan 49:27 And he's dunking on you on a platform that he owns now.

Bret Weinstein 49:32 Right.

Joe Rogan 49:32 (laughs)

Bret Weinstein 49:33 There's that.

Joe Rogan 49:34 (laughs)

Bret Weinstein 49:34 I also, as much as it's juvenile, um-

Joe Rogan 49:38 I love it. I am juvenile. (laughs)

Bret Weinstein 49:38 There was something... No, it's, it... The one where he, uh, he was asked for comment by s- one of these legacy media outlets. I don't know if it was The New York Times, but it might as well have been, and he sent back a poop emoji. And it's like, look, that's a wise move because the rules of the game say, you know, he refused to comment.

Joe Rogan 50:00 Right.

Bret Weinstein 50:01 But you can't say that if he did comment and it was a poop emoji. You have to report that. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:05 (laughs)

Bret Weinstein 50:05 So, that was extremely clever.

Joe Rogan 50:08 Yeah. I... Listen, I s- uh, regardless of how nonsensical some of the stuff that they print is, I still have faith in journalists. I think we're going through a very weird trend right now where they're not behaving like journalists, they're behaving like propagandists. And I think that the business is imploding because of that and the rise of independent journalists. And I know there was a, an attempt at a correction at CNN. There was an attempt at it. But they had so many fucking holes in that ship, that just to try to patch them up a little, you're, you're not gonna get people's trust in that way, and I don't think it was effective. So, it wasn't effective in terms of the amount of people that were watching, and there's no dynamic personalities that people appreciate and respect and really, really trust that are on the air. It's simply talking heads that you're familiar with. But I think that ultimately, they're going to have to either adjust or die. E- either one of them is okay, because if they die, then you have independent journalists that do have the respect and the admiration of people because they put their neck out there, and they've said things that are controversial and, and difficult. And they've made these points from a, a well-articulated place of an actual understanding of the issues and not ideological. So, when you're seeing something like The New York Times tweet th- uh, post things that are clearly ideological... Rolling Stone's lost the plot. Roll- r- I mean, just what are they doing? Th- they're just... They're pr- propaganda and nonsense. That shit that they did during the pandemic about the people dying from ivermectin while gunshot wounds... How many people are getting shot? What the fuck are you talking about? You've got a line of gunshot wounds? Is that what you're showing me? And then you're showing me a photograph which is a stock photo of a completely different time of the year where people are wearing winter jackets, you fuckheads. Like, this is crazy. You're talking about... What was it? Oklahoma that we're saying?

Bret Weinstein 52:02 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:02 Oklahoma in the summer and people are wearing parkas? Like, fuck you. How are you real? How are you real? How are you real, uh, while the Dark Horse podcast exists?

Bret Weinstein 52:13 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:13 How are you real? It's 'cause people, they're, they're not quite ready to jump ship yet, but they're fucking close. And so you see in The New York Times and the LA Times, just fired a shitload of people, Sports Illustrated. There's all these organizations that are just fucked now, because the media, c- corporate media... I t- uh, you don't want to call it mainstream anymore 'cause it's not as big. It's really not. The real mainstream is online. And corporate media is fucking imploding. But the people that want those jobs, the people that go to school, the people that really grow up respecting and appreciating and admiring actual journalists, the people that uncovered Watergate, the people that report about the n- the, the pipeline being blown up and who's actually doing it. You know, when, when you get real... L- like kids that are growing up right now that are listening to this, people that are in college right now that recognize the true value of journalism, they're gonna get out into the world, and some of them are gonna make it, and they're gonna show the way. And it's the only way for those businesses to survive. You can't survive as a propagandist while X exists. You cannot, because you're gonna be exposed. You might work for the boomers, but guess what? They're gonna die.

Bret Weinstein 53:33 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:33 They don't have much time left, especially if they take your fucking medical advice.

Bret Weinstein 53:38 Uh, e- exactly. So, uh, let me introduce a concept here that we talk about on Dark Horse regularly.

Joe Rogan 53:44 Okay.

Bret Weinstein 53:44 Which is, zero is a special number. And this is about a little piece of game theory that the rent-seeking elites did not understand. Um, the idea is, if you have control, if you have censorship control over all of the social media platforms, then the world looks a particular way because certain stories that should be discussed can't be discussed. If a single platform escapes that control, then it becomes the platform that everybody wants to be on because nobody wants to be treated like a child. We all want to be in the places where we can discuss whatever needs to be discussed. So, by buying Twitter and keeping it afloat through the initial attacks, Musk created an environment where we are now much freer than we were to speak even just two or three years ago.

Joe Rogan 54:35 And it seems to have alleviated pressure.

Bret Weinstein 54:38 That's my point. Once you have one entity that succeeds in stabilizing itself outside of the control, every other social media platform has to follow or die. Right? Because-

Joe Rogan 54:49 But do they? I mean, what is-

Bret Weinstein 54:50 They, they are. They, they, they are and they will. I mean, it's possible that they will find some way to, to de-fang X. There's still a lot of bad architecture inside of X. Um, but if X remains freer, then it forces the hand of everybody else who wishes to compete because nobody wants to be, you know, playing mini golf when there's real golf.

Joe Rogan 55:14 Can you expand on the, the structure of it, the architecture that you think is...

Bret Weinstein 55:19 Well, let's just say-Um, I, I will use in my defense, uh, I met with Elon and he talked to me about something that I think he's also talked to ... he's talked publicly about, which is the fact that before he owned X, he could detect that the behavior with respect to his own account was not organic.

Joe Rogan 55:39 Right.

Bret Weinstein 55:39 That there was lots of structure inside that decided what to elevate and-

Joe Rogan 55:43 Yeah.

Bret Weinstein 55:43 ... uh, what to suppress. I feel this in my account. I've in fact seen very strange stuff up until last week. It's very hard to convey that to anybody, because they don't know how good you are at sorting actual shenanigans from just feeling like a tweet should have done better than it did.

Joe Rogan 56:04 Right.

Bret Weinstein 56:05 And, you know, it was just luck of the draw. But, um, I think it is possible to demonst- let, let me just tell you about one example.

Joe Rogan 56:14 Okay.

Bret Weinstein 56:15 Um, I was tweeting about, what, what even ... Oh, it was about, um ... After my interview, I had two recent interviews with Tucker Carlson. Um, the second one was about the border crisis, and it contained some really explosive stuff. And, um, it was not trending, which is weird for a Tucker interview, especially one that got as many views as it did. And there has been some, uh ... I used to be able to do something I would call climbing a trend. If there was a trend on Twitter, I could very often tweet about it, and then my tweet would climb up the trend. And that became impossible. It was like forbidden somehow in the architecture of Twitter. In the aftermath of this Tucker interview, um, I expected to see that interview and my participation in it trend, because so many people saw it. It was like six million views in two days. So that, it was obviously something that was being seen and discussed. And it didn't start trending, and then a weird thing happened. My name trended, but it was only my first name, and it trended under the category Sports. And if you went to the tweets in the trend, they were actually about the Tucker interview. So the Bret-

Joe Rogan 57:39 Whoa.

Bret Weinstein 57:41 Right. So what it turned out, somebody posted under me, they said, "Oh, it was Bret Favre," who's ... That's why it says Bret-

Joe Rogan 57:46 Favre.

Bret Weinstein 57:46 Favre. Ha.

Narrator 57:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:47 Communist. What's wrong with me?

Bret Weinstein 57:50 Wow, I'm not gonna live that down, am I?

Joe Rogan 57:51 (laughs)

Bret Weinstein 57:51 But, uh, Favre.

Joe Rogan 57:54 He's a legend. You gotta get his name right.

Bret Weinstein 57:56 Uh, he is. I, I am going to from now on.

Joe Rogan 57:58 What'd you say, Jamie?

Narrator 57:59 That's gonna be a meme.

Joe Rogan 58:01 (laughs)

Bret Weinstein 58:03 (laughs) All right. Uh, well, I'll take my lumps on that. But nonetheless-

Joe Rogan 58:05 That's a, it's a odd spelling, in your defense. If you don't, you know?

Bret Weinstein 58:09 Well, yeah. So here's what happened. B-R-E-T trended.

Joe Rogan 58:13 Mm-hmm.

Bret Weinstein 58:13 The category was Sports. It wasn't Bret Weinstein trending-

Joe Rogan 58:18 Right.

Bret Weinstein 58:18 ... and when you went to the tweets, they weren't about sports or Bret Favre.

Joe Rogan 58:22 Mm.

Bret Weinstein 58:22 Okay? They were actually about me.

Joe Rogan 58:24 Right. So-

Bret Weinstein 58:24 So-

Joe Rogan 58:24 ... you were prevented from trending in some way.

Bret Weinstein 58:27 I think that what happened, uh, to put it in the, the proper, um, computer science language, is that the intersection of Bret Weinstein and Bret Favre is B-R-E-T. He spells his name with two Ts, and obviously we have different last names. But the idea was that whatever the architecture in the back of Twitter is was preventing me from trending, but they had a ... but he was allowed to trend, and because our names had this intersection, I could trend under his category.

Joe Rogan 58:58 But most of the category was about you.

Bret Weinstein 59:01 None of it was about him. It was all about me as far as I could tell.

Joe Rogan 59:03 That's wild.

Bret Weinstein 59:04 So, anyway, I think that implies the structure that I've been detecting, but haven't been able to establish. And anyway, that stuff is still inside Twitter. Do I think Musk has put a block on me trending? No, I don't think so at all. But I think there's something in there that he doesn't know about.

Joe Rogan 59:21 Well, you gotta f- think who's working there. Okay?

Bret Weinstein 59:26 Right.

Joe Rogan 59:27 First of all, Twitter's in San Francisco. The idea that you're gonna get 4,000 rebels who are (laughs) -

Bret Weinstein 59:35 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:35 ... you know, international dark web members that are working in Twitter is nonsense. You're gonna get those kids that are subject to the same social pressures that all the other kids that are getting out of universities and they're moving into social media space are getting. Those are the people. Now, they might have mandates that they're told to use, but these are computer geniuses. These are people that know how to fuck with things. These are people that are coders. And if they can get away with it, especially if your boss is busy running SpaceX and Tesla. I mean, how the fuck can that guy do ... Oh, and The Boring Company, sorry, you know? And having 150 kids. How? How does that guy have time?

Bret Weinstein 1:00:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:16 I have three kids and I can't fucking pay attention to half the shit (laughs) that's going on in the world. If I was ru- like, I have issues sometimes at my club where I have to like put out social fires, and I'm like, "Uh, what is ac- actually happening?" And I have to like, kind of like forensically a- analyze each and every conflict, m- measure personalities, like, "Was this person susceptible to doing something?" And maybe they, they don't seem to be honest. Like, "Something's going on here. What's the actual truth? Do I get these two people together and ..." It's ... Fuck, man. And that's a simple thing, like a comedy club with 100 employees, it's not that big a deal. You know? This motherfucker's running Twitter, SpaceX, Tesla, and The Boring Company, and he's providing Starlink satellites to Ukraine and all other parts of the world, and you could, you could put one on your fucking camper and get 5G in the middle of the desert. Like, what?

Bret Weinstein 1:01:11 Right, at the same time that he's like-

Joe Rogan 1:01:12 At the same time?

Bret Weinstein 1:01:13 ... memeing people into submission.

Joe Rogan 1:01:15 How?

Bret Weinstein 1:01:15 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:15 Every time I text him, I'm like, "How are you responding to me? How do you have the fucking time?"

Bret Weinstein 1:01:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:20 "How do you do that? I can't keep up. I have like 89 text messages that I have to get to at the end of this podcast."

Bret Weinstein 1:01:27 ... yeah. It, it's, it's amazing, uh, what he's able to do. And that he-

Joe Rogan 1:01:31 It's insane.

Bret Weinstein 1:01:32 ... he has a taste for it, I think.

Joe Rogan 1:01:33 So how could he possibly be paying attention to h- how people are trending and what's allowed and what's not allowed?

Bret Weinstein 1:01:38 Oh, I don't think, I don't think he can be.

Joe Rogan 1:01:40 He can't.

Bret Weinstein 1:01:40 All he can do is put people in charge and he can give them marching orders and say, "I don't want this thing to, uh, to have its thumb on the scales."

Joe Rogan 1:01:50 Is he aware of this dilemma? You should al- uh, you should alert him to this.

Bret Weinstein 1:01:56 Here's the problem.

Joe Rogan 1:01:57 Okay.

Bret Weinstein 1:01:57 Okay? And I don't know what this means and I wasn't, I was not gonna mention this.

Joe Rogan 1:02:02 Uh-oh.

Bret Weinstein 1:02:02 But this is the very thing ... So, I went to see Musk, as I mentioned.

Joe Rogan 1:02:08 Mm-hmm.

Bret Weinstein 1:02:08 We had a very good discussion. Um, I spent about a half an hour with him. At the end of it, he said that he thought it was a good discussion and he wanted to meet again. And I said, "Anytime," of course. On my trip back home, literally from that meeting, my Twitter account got hijacked for the first time ever. I've never had an account hijacked. But my Twitter account got hijacked and it started putting out some crazy spam stuff. And I was concerned about it because not only is it alarming to have your account captured, but I had been DMing with Musk, including encrypted DMs. Now, there wasn't anything sensitive in there, but you can imagine in my shoes, the last thing you want is somebody captures your account and they start exposing communications with Musk that maybe he doesn't want-

Joe Rogan 1:02:57 Right.

Bret Weinstein 1:02:57 ... public. So I contacted him, right? In alarm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:01 Yes.

Bret Weinstein 1:03:01 And I said, "My account's been captured. Not sure what to do about it." We were in a discussion and, uh, we were talking about the fact that the account itself has weird, uh, behavior on Twitter.

Joe Rogan 1:03:16 Mm-hmm.

Bret Weinstein 1:03:16 Which I didn't know if that was relevant or not. And he asked me for more information and I started to tell him about this trend stuff.

Joe Rogan 1:03:25 Mm-hmm.

Bret Weinstein 1:03:26 He blocked me. Now, I don't know what that means. I don't think he's on the other team. I don't think-

Joe Rogan 1:03:32 He blocked you?

Bret Weinstein 1:03:33 Yes. He blocked me and I'm blocked to this day, which seems strange. It could be that he's forgotten that he's done it, but I don't think so.

Joe Rogan 1:03:42 Why would he block you?

Bret Weinstein 1:03:45 I have no idea. It makes no sense. Now, it's possible that he, you know, he's very busy. It's possible that he took what I was telling him about the behavior of my account as if I thought it was his obligation to pay attention to me personally, which I never thought, but maybe he interpreted it that way.

Joe Rogan 1:04:03 Hmm.

Bret Weinstein 1:04:04 The last thing he said was, "Stop spamming me," which was very strange for a guy who said he wanted to have another meeting. Right?

Joe Rogan 1:04:10 How many messages were you sending him?

Bret Weinstein 1:04:13 Three or four.

Joe Rogan 1:04:15 Stop spamming me.

Bret Weinstein 1:04:17 It was very strange.

Joe Rogan 1:04:18 Hmm.

Bret Weinstein 1:04:18 But, uh, look, I don't hold it against him. The guy is obviously... I think it's obvious that he is trying to save the world and he's one of very few people who has the kind of power and insight to actually make an important difference in that. So I'm very much a supporter of what he's doing, even if I found that whole chapter strange. Um, but nonetheless, it happened. I don't know what it means. And it is interesting that it happened as I was trying to explain to him the weirdness in my account, which was a mirror for what he told me he had experienced with his account-

Joe Rogan 1:04:53 Hmm.

Bret Weinstein 1:04:53 ... before he bought Twitter.

Joe Rogan 1:04:56 Yeah. You know, you could, if you wanted to be charitable, you could chalk that up to a guy that's just fucking insanely stressed out and busy in dealing with-

Bret Weinstein 1:05:05 Let's put it this way.

Joe Rogan 1:05:06 ... thousands of fires.

Bret Weinstein 1:05:07 I, I don't ... I'm already there.

Joe Rogan 1:05:09 Yeah.

Bret Weinstein 1:05:09 I, I, my feeling is I'm still a supporter of his. I, I don't like that he blocked me, but the guy's got more important stuff to do.

Joe Rogan 1:05:15 Yeah.

Bret Weinstein 1:05:15 And I'm supportive of what he's doing.

Joe Rogan 1:05:17 Well, hopefully he'll hear this and unblock you.

Bret Weinstein 1:05:20 That would be lovely.

Joe Rogan 1:05:21 (laughs) Stop spamming him, bro.

Bret Weinstein 1:05:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:05:23 (laughs)

Bret Weinstein 1:05:24 Well, let's put it this way. If that was the, if that was the issue, all he needed to say is-

Joe Rogan 1:05:27 Yeah.

Bret Weinstein 1:05:28 ... "Hey, Brett."

Joe Rogan 1:05:29 Yeah. "I'm very busy."

Bret Weinstein 1:05:30 "I'm very busy."

Joe Rogan 1:05:31 Yeah. Which he clearly is.

Bret Weinstein 1:05:32 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:05:33 Yeah, you can't fake that. That's ... I don't know how he does it in the first place, so responding to any, even responding by stop spamming me.

Bret Weinstein 1:05:41 Right. Even that.

Joe Rogan 1:05:42 I didn't have time for that.

Bret Weinstein 1:05:42 How, how expensive was that that he- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:05:44 (laughs)

Bret Weinstein 1:05:44 ... he actually typed that out?

Joe Rogan 1:05:46 I'm just thankful that there is a guy like him that's doing what he's doing because if it wasn't for him, I think we were moving in a very wild direction, a really crazy direction of adherence and compliance regardless of whether or not it's logical and things are moving more and more into this crazy ideological place that seems very much like a cult. And it was in control of all of our mass means of communication, other than, you know, whether it's Rumble

Joe Rogan 1:06:16 or Gab or these sites that are committed to free speech, and some of them have been kind of fucked and take all... And I think that, that's, that's something that people need to take into consideration too. When you, you hear about a right wing platform that gets infiltrated by racists and Nazis and I'm sure that's true too. I'm sure there are some. But I would imagine, and I would like you to consider, that we know that government interference in social media discourse, whether it is our government or whether it's foreign governments that want us to stay at each other's throats, is a real thing.

Bret Weinstein 1:06:56 (sighs)

Joe Rogan 1:06:57 And one of the ways they would do that is to make any sort of ... any kind of di- anytime there's a discussion, have the most problematic take on it elevated and have massive amounts of people that are saying egregious, horrible things over and over again. And to me, my reaction when I see that is I stop using that platform. And that's me. That's someone who's really aware of this game and knows how it's g- I don't go to those other platforms. I just, "Get the fuck out of here." They're too, it's too nuts. Some of them-And then some of them, I go, "Okay." Like on, on X, like when some, some hot take comes out, I love to go into the accounts and see what the most ridiculous people, like what they're saying, and then go to their page. And it's usually like a name with a bunch of numbers, and they have like 43 followers, and then you look at their tweets, and it's all either responding to these social issues in this very egregious way, or retweeting preposterous things, and retweeting gaslighting things. You know, retweeting things that just like, you just go, "Who the fuck thinks like this?" Well, it's, they're not real people, man. These are agents of chaos, and they're injected into social media. If you have beer, and it's a really good beer, and you inject 20% piss into that beer, people are gonna drink that beer and go, "What the fuck is wrong with this beer?" It's not the beer. It's what's being injected into the beer. You're not allowing the real citizens to have an honest take on how everybody else thinks. Because the way we figure out what's right, w- no one exactly knows that their take is 100% the only way to look at things. You gotta be able to interact with people. That's why discourse is so important, and that's the most fascinating aspect about the free internet, is to be able to see the actual opinions of real people that think very differently than you. And some of them you might think are ridiculous, and some of them might change your mind. You might listen to what their take is on something and go, "I never considered that. I have to, maybe, maybe I am looking at things ideologically. Maybe I do have a pre- a preconceived notion of what's right and what's wrong, and it's not based on facts. It's not, I'm not being objective." And that's the only way to find that out. But when you're dealing with swarms of people, whether it's Russian troll farms, or Chinese, or American, and they're jumping into the fray and fucking up all the conversations, you're like, "Hoo, what's really going on here? What is really going on?" And I think most people don't know what's really going on. I was, I was, the reason why I got to this recently, it was some article, I forget what the article was about, but it was some social take. But then, I saw that they were posting tweets in the article, which is a new thing that lazy journalists will do. (laughs) And this was the take online of this. And so I go, "Okay, that's the take online. Let me go to that person, see if it's a real person." Nope, not a real person. "Let me go to this other tweet." Nope, not a real person. I mean, it might be a real person, but my instincts are that the fucking name and three numbers behind it and the way they're tweeting about stuff, bullshit. Bullshit. This is, so did they do that? How did they not do that before they posted those tweets? They don't give a fuck. They're just getting clicks. They just wanna see the people arguing about things, and they wanna see the support for whatever preposterous notion they're trying to push out, whether it's, uh, trans athletes, or, you know, people being able to use women's rooms with penises, all of that stuff. When you see the takes on it, and you go like, "How much of this is real humans? And how much of it is actually affecting real humans to their, their whole barometer, their idea of like what's okay and what's not okay shifts?" And the way I've described it, and it, I, I had heard someone talk about this one in terms of, I think it was Tony Robbins actually, talk about it in terms of beneficial behavior, that if you are on a certain path, there's two boats on a certain path, and one of them deviates slightly in a, in a better direction, over time, the distance is great from where you would be to where you are now, because you've done the right things. Well, that's also true if you like get people to believe nonsense, and you get to be- people to believe like weird social things, and you get to be- people to believe that if you are not willing to have sex with a biological male who identifies as a woman, somehow or another, you're a Nazi. Mm-hmm. And as that gets further and fur- then we find ourselves in these, like, "How did I get here?" Like, "How are we here?" And well, a lot of it is just discourse. And if you can control discourse, and if you can manipulate discourse, which is clearly being done, you could change what's acceptable. Well, I, I f- on the one hand, I think it's even worse than you're portraying it. And on the other hand, I find a kind of hope in this. And the way it's worse is, if you think about who we're up against, and what properties they control, they presumably have the intelligence services on their side. They've banked all of our communications, and I mean, if you give me their cards, I know how to win, right? You know who suspects whom of what, you know who resents, uh, whom, you know how to seed, uh, anger and disrespect. It's not hard to take a group of people and get them to tangle themselves if you have that kind of information. And they just simply do. And they don't even have to collect it in r- real time. They just have to bank it so that they can go back and figure out what the map of these things is, and they can tangle us. And I think they're doing it. And I think we are seeing, I know that in the, um, in the COVID dissident community, there's all kinds of infighting, uh, that's going on, that- About what? (laughs) Well, there's a faction that has emerged, for example, that is convinced that there was no novel pathogen circulating during the COVID pandemic. Do you, now, do you think those people are real? Some of them are. I know some of them. Right. Do you th- so these people think that it was just all bullshit, and that all those people getting sick was what, the flu? Well, (laughs) there's a second faction that says it wasn't SARS-CoV-2, it was flu. (clicks tongue) Okay. Right? Now, let's just say, I think the people who say that there is n- there was no novel pathogen, they actually have a point that they're failing to make, which they should be making.

Bret Weinstein 1:13:34 The point is, the propaganda was so effective, it was so industrial strength, that a pathogen was not required.

Joe Rogan 1:13:44 Mm-hmm.

Bret Weinstein 1:13:44 Right? Much of this could have been accomplished with no pathogen.

Joe Rogan 1:13:47 Right.

Bret Weinstein 1:13:48 Now, that doesn't mean there wasn't a pathogen, and I think there was, 'cause I think I've had it. Right?

Joe Rogan 1:13:53 Yeah.

Bret Weinstein 1:13:53 And, and my sense that I have had that pathogen is based on observations of the pattern with my family. So, let's just take the question of, well, was this flu, and are you leaping to the conclusion that flu was something special because people had put the idea of SARS-CoV-2 in your mind? I don't think so, and here's why I don't think so. I've had flu maybe three or four times in my life. I've had something three times in the last four years, something severe and flu-like. I had it-

Joe Rogan 1:14:27 Is it still severe?

Bret Weinstein 1:14:29 Well-

Joe Rogan 1:14:29 The, the most recent versions have been severe for you?

Bret Weinstein 1:14:32 Let's put it this way, severe as in debilitating.

Joe Rogan 1:14:35 Really?

Bret Weinstein 1:14:35 Now, I treated it aggressively. I got over it quickly. But, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:40 But the results, the impact initially?

Bret Weinstein 1:14:42 The impact was profound, right?

Joe Rogan 1:14:44 Really?

Bret Weinstein 1:14:44 It was, it was flu or worse severity. Now, am I saying that was SARS-CoV-2? How would I know? How would I know?

Joe Rogan 1:14:52 You didn't get tested the last two times?

Bret Weinstein 1:14:54 The last time I got tested, it did not test positive for COVID, but it was out of season. So, the basic pattern is this. I believe the pathogens exist.

Joe Rogan 1:15:05 Mm-hmm.

Bret Weinstein 1:15:05 I believe that I have contracted a pathogen three times in four years. Does it have to be one pathogen? No, I'm open to the possibility it was a couple different things. But mostly, we're talking about not in the traditional season for flu.

Joe Rogan 1:15:20 Did you get tested for RSV?

Bret Weinstein 1:15:22 Um, I didn't, but I did talk to Pierre Kory about it, and there was no reason to think it was gonna be RSV. Um, so anyway, my point is, I don't believe there was no pathogen, because I believe that something that followed the pattern of a pathogen is in the world.

Joe Rogan 1:15:41 Also, the pathogen is clearly documented.

Bret Weinstein 1:15:44 Well, I agree with you, it's clearly documented, but it's not that the people who are arguing there's no pathogen don't have responses. And so, you know, we saw a lot of shenanigans with thr- uh, cycle thresholds on PCR. So, there are ways-

Joe Rogan 1:15:58 Yes.

Bret Weinstein 1:15:58 ... to create the impression of a pandemic that did not require there to be an actual pathogen.

Joe Rogan 1:16:04 Well, it was also one of the rare times where being asymptomatic didn't, you, you were still considered sick.

Bret Weinstein 1:16:13 Yeah, and that was likely, uh, nonsense, or largely nonsense.

Joe Rogan 1:16:16 Well, la- it was, like, some wild number. Like, 65% of the people who were diagnosed with SARS-CoV-2 were asymptomatic, and this was also during the PCR cycle days of 40 cycles.

Bret Weinstein 1:16:29 Right. So, so the point is, all right, we know that there are various tricks you can play, and that we know that they were played, that people who died of things that had nothing to do with any infectious disease were categorized as d-

Joe Rogan 1:16:41 Right.

Bret Weinstein 1:16:42 ... dying with COVID or of COVID.

Joe Rogan 1:16:43 And that they were financially incentivized to do so.

Bret Weinstein 1:16:45 We know all of those games were played. And so-

Joe Rogan 1:16:47 Yeah.

Bret Weinstein 1:16:48 ... from my perspective, I believe that most of what happened could have been arranged without a pathogen. That said, I believe there was one. Now, but, but the larger point, you asked me, um, who, who, what is the f- infighting in the COVID community? The fact is, those who believe that there was a pathogen are viewed as shills, or-

Joe Rogan 1:17:10 Ugh. (laughs)

Bret Weinstein 1:17:10 ... limited hangouts by those who believe that there wasn't one.

Joe Rogan 1:17:14 Can I ask you this? There's this thing that they say, the, the, the conspiracy theorists, the never biologists say, is that COVID has never been isolated.

Bret Weinstein 1:17:26 Yeah, I, I don't think this is true. I, I think what you want is somebody who is, um, skilled in the molecular side of this story to talk you through what is and isn't correct.

Joe Rogan 1:17:38 Can you d- just expand on that? This idea that keeps getting propagated that COVID has never been isolated.

Bret Weinstein 1:17:48 So, I, I'm, I can't really explore that evidence, 'cause I'm not well-versed in it. I can tell you who I trust on this topic, and I would s- I would say talk to Kevin McKiernan. All right? He can tell you what's been seen and what hasn't. The problem is, I mean, you read, uh, Bobby Kennedy's-

Joe Rogan 1:18:11 Yes.

Bret Weinstein 1:18:11 ... book about Fauci.

Joe Rogan 1:18:13 Yes.

Bret Weinstein 1:18:13 Right? And y- you remember in that book that there is an exploration of what happened with HIV.

Joe Rogan 1:18:21 Mm-hmm.

Bret Weinstein 1:18:22 Now, the portrayal in that book, which I must say is, I think, shockingly compelling, is that HIV exists, but it is not explanatory of acquired immune deficiency syndrome as we think it is. So-

Joe Rogan 1:18:38 And this is Peter Duesberg's assertion too, who was, uh, demonized heavily during the AIDS crisis.

Bret Weinstein 1:18:44 Right. So-

Joe Rogan 1:18:44 He's a professor of biology, University of California, Berkeley.

Bret Weinstein 1:18:48 So, we're dealing with a question w- There are those who believe that pathogens don't exist, that viruses don't exist. I think these people are completely nuts. Okay? We know viruses exist. For one thing, you know, there are certain viruses you can see. Right? Like, a bacteriophage is something that you can actually see with an electron microscope. So, viruses definitely exist. Whether they are responsible for this, that, or the other syndrome is something that, uh, we can get wrong.

Joe Rogan 1:19:17 Can I stop you there?

Bret Weinstein 1:19:17 Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:19:18 So, if you can see viruses in an electron microscope, you cannot see COVID in an electron microscope?

Bret Weinstein 1:19:24 Um, you can see something. Right? You can see a particle with structure. Um, but, uh, there are ... So, again, we're in an area that is not my area of expertise. You've got-... couple different kinds of electron micrographs. You've got, uh, scanning and transmission, and then you have various tricks to increase the ability of them to see into ranges that are actually beyond the ability of electrons to reveal them directly. And (inhales deeply) anyway, it is a highly technical realm, and it's not, it's not something I can, I can explain. Um, but we can see something, but the fact, you know, if you, if you say, "This person has a syndrome," right? And then you go looking for a particle, and that particle is present reliably, right? You have to then figure out if that particle is absent from people who don't have the symptoms, and if it's not absent, which it sometimes won't be, you have to figure out what it means, right? So there's a postulate about establishing the connection between a virus and a disease that is, um, seemingly logical. In other words, people who have the particle present ought to show symptoms of the disease, and people who have symptoms of the disease ought to have the particle in those ... Uh, so that postulate, Koch's postulate, does not actually work, and the reason it doesn't work is because you have ... Let's take, um, let's take the case of AIDS, for example. (smacks lips) AIDS involves a inability of people to fend off various pathogens that they, they would otherwise be able to fend off. You can say, well, that's the result of HIV. The problem is that the inability to fend off some set of pathogens may be the result of the disruption of a subclass of cells, CD4 cells, let's say. So if CD4 cells are attacked by HIV, and that disrupts the ability of a patient to fend off a particular disease, then anything that disrupts the formation of CD4 cells will produce the same pathology. So according to this postulate, which is too narrow, you can falsify the idea that HIV is causing AIDS, because there are patients who have AIDS who don't have HIV, right? So that's, that's the problem. You need, uh, a, a richer toolkit in order to be able to establish a causal relationship, and in the case of HIV, um, what the argument is that it is effectively a minor fellow traveler, right? That whatever it is that is causing AIDS actually does, is accompanied by HIV, but that HIV isn't actually inducing that syndrome, right? So AIDS is a syndrome, which just means a collection, uh, of symptoms that occur together. But the nature of biology is that you have pathways. Anything that disrupts a particular pathway will create all the same symptoms downstream, and so in any case, that, um, (sighs) that complexity makes it very difficult to establish with certainty that X particle creates Y disease, because-

Joe Rogan 1:22:56 It's also ignoring a very important factor in AIDS, which is party drugs.

Bret Weinstein 1:23:01 That is the c- the competing hypothesis, and for those who think that this is a preposterous, um, allegation, you should look at this evidence. The evidence is surprisingly compelling, and you know, i- i- if your mind resists that, realize that Luc Montagnier, who got a Nobel Prize for the discovery of HIV, later in life became convinced that the thing for whatch- which he got the Nobel Prize was not nearly as important as he, he had imagined. He believed that HIV was not the causal element. So, um, I, to me that's very powerful, somebody as smart as Luc Montagnier looked at the evidence and said he had gotten it wrong, where that actually decreased his own historical importance.

Joe Rogan 1:23:48 And then we have to take into consideration the initial treatment, which was AZT.

Bret Weinstein 1:23:53 Right, AZT.

Joe Rogan 1:23:54 Now AZT kills people dead.

Bret Weinstein 1:23:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:23:57 And they stopped using it as chemotherapy medication because it was killing people quicker than cancer, and chemotherapy medication has never been, never been prescribed to people that you constantly stay on it. That's just not something they do. You go on it for very short periods of time because it's very damaging, but it kills the cancer, and then your body recovers and survives. With AZT, with AIDS, it was killing people, so now you have people dying from AIDS, and you have this medication which Fauci in the 1980s was famously, uh, quoted as saying, "Is the only reason why we use only one medication is 'cause it's the only medication that's been proven to be both safe and effective."

Bret Weinstein 1:24:37 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:24:37 Uh, where have you heard that before?

Bret Weinstein 1:24:38 Right. It was a total, it was, COVID was a rerun of the AIDS chapter with AZT.

Joe Rogan 1:24:44 But the AIDS chapter seems even more terrifying, because if the initial treatment was AZT, and we know AZT kills people, you're taking someone who has a compromised immune system, and your response to that was, "Give them something that's going to kill them quicker, and then say there's a giant crisis." (claps hands once) And this is what Duesberg was demonized for.

Bret Weinstein 1:25:02 Yeah. Uh, I, I agree, and I, you know, for many years, uh, I resisted the interpretation. Um, I was more familiar with Kary Mullis' objections. Uh, Kary Mullis was the inventor of PCR technology who died tragically, and some would say strangely, at the very beginning of the COVID crisis.

Joe Rogan 1:25:27 Why strangely?

Bret Weinstein 1:25:29 Um-

Joe Rogan 1:25:29 Just because of the timing?

Bret Weinstein 1:25:30 Have you ever seen this piece of video where he-

Joe Rogan 1:25:33 Yes.

Bret Weinstein 1:25:33 ... talks about Anthony Fauci?

Joe Rogan 1:25:35 Yeah.

Bret Weinstein 1:25:36 (smacks lips) Um, let's put it this way. Kary Mullis was a, uh, outspoken...... uh, vigorous, highly intelligent person who was not corralled by fashion. And in fact, his objection to the idea that HIV was causing AIDS, uh, was an early testament to, uh, his, his maverick nature.

Joe Rogan 1:26:01 For people who haven't heard it, let's find that. Find that clip of Kary Mullis talking about Anthony Fauci as essentially just saying he's a bureaucrat, and he doesn't know what he's talking about, and that his technology should never be used.

Narrator 1:26:15 I don't know which video. Is it this one?

Bret Weinstein 1:26:17 Yeah, the second one there.

Joe Rogan 1:26:18 The second one. That one, yeah.

Narrator 1:26:21 What is it, what, what is it about humanity that, that, that, that wants to go to all the details and stuff, and listen ... You know, these guys like Fauci get up there and start talking. You know, he doesn't know anything really about anything, and I'd say that to his face. Nothing. The man thinks you can take a blood sample and stick it in an electron microscope, and if it's got (laughs) a virus in there, you will know it. He doesn't understand electron microscopy, and he doesn't understand medicine. He do- he should not be in a position like he's in. Most of those guys up there on the top are just total administrative people, and they don't know anything about what's going on on the bottom. You know, those guys have got an agenda, which is not what we would like them to have, being that we pay for them to take care of our health in some way. They've got a personal kind of a- agenda.