Joe Rogan Experience #2102 - Will Storr

1. 0:00 – 2:11

   Story-driven journalism: Bourdain, CNN’s old programming, and immersive reporting

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) Um, CNN at one point in time, when Bourdain had a show on, they were doing some very interesting things. They were trying to, uh, do shows, not just the news. Right? So they had No, No Reservations was the best one of them, where they had, you know, they just told Anthony Bourdain, "Just be you and just do what you, d- do your b- best version of your show." And they really just got out of the way, and it was fucking amazing.

   4. WSWill Storr0:37

      Yeah. Yeah, so they got out of his way. They let him be-

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:39

      Yeah.

   6. WSWill Storr0:39

      ... the best of himself. Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:40

      They figured out how to do that, you know? Kamau Bell had a really good show too. Is that show still on?

   8. NANarrator0:46

      I don't think so.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:47

      What was that show called? I'm sorry, I'm f- forget the name of these shows, but, uh, w- Kamau Bell was really good at being, like, calm. He, he's a-

   10. NANarrator0:58

       United Shades of America.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:59

       Shades of a- United Shades of America. Really good at being calm, like, talking to, like, KKK people.

   12. WSWill Storr1:04

       (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:05

       And he's Black and he's a comic.

   14. WSWill Storr1:07

       Okay.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:07

       But he's just, like, a very nice guy.

   16. WSWill Storr1:09

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:09

       He's a very nice guy, like, a genuinely nice guy in, in real life. And so when he's doing a show, even when he's confronted by the most ignorant racists, uh, he, he can have conversations with them and then... and, you know, they're like, "Well, you're not like the others." You know? (laughs)

   18. WSWill Storr1:24

       (laughs) Yeah. (laughs)

   19. NANarrator1:24

       (laughs)

   20. WSWill Storr1:24

       But that's the best kind of journalism, you know? You, you've got to-

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:26

       Yes.

   22. WSWill Storr1:27

       You, you c- you can properly immerse yourself in those worlds.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:29

       Yeah, and CNN did that for a while, you know? They had that other show, what was it, Radical, with, uh, that one gentleman who, um... Reza Aslan, is that his name? That was another good show. They did some interesting stuff. They did, like, quite a few interesting shows, where they were just shows. It wasn't what it is now, which is this, like, bizarre version of news TikTok-

   24. WSWill Storr1:57

       Oh, right.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:57

       ... just grabbing you with everything that's gonna terrify you every day.

   26. WSWill Storr2:01

       (laughs)

   27. JRJoe Rogan2:01

       And there's so much to terrify you f- about today, you know?

   28. WSWill Storr2:08

       Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's that they, they seem to have lost the art of storytelling in, in a way.

2. 2:11 – 3:52

   The Status Game thesis: connection first, then status (and how beliefs get hijacked)

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:11

      Yeah, it's very unfortunate. So ladies and gentlemen, we started this podcast after a long conversation about Anthony Bourdain.

   2. WSWill Storr2:18

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:18

      But I felt like we were already rolling, so let's just roll into it. Um, I really enjoyed you on Trigonometry.

   4. WSWill Storr2:24

      Oh, thank you.

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:24

      And that's why I wanted to, uh, talk to you here, because it's just... I think (sighs) your book is The Status Game?

   6. WSWill Storr2:31

      That's right, yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan2:32

      And I think what's really interesting about what you're s- you're talking about, um, mechanisms that make people understand, like, behavior patterns, in a way, instead of just accepting them. You know, because I think a lot of people fall into accepting behavior patterns. But what you're, what you're showing is, like, these status games that human beings play. They're sort of wired into our, our being and we don't recognize them. They can get hijacked by far right movements or far left movements, or a lot of different things can happen that can really screw your life up-

   8. WSWill Storr3:09

      Yeah, yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan3:10

      ... if you get hijacked by these just normal mechanisms of human thinking.

   10. WSWill Storr3:14

       That's right, that's right. So, uh, uh, I think sort of the general thesis is that, that humans want two things. They want connection into groups, and then once they're in the group, they want status. So, s- so, um, you know, it's, it's not enough to feel like we're a Christian. We have to be a good Christian-

   11. JRJoe Rogan3:30

       Right.

   12. WSWill Storr3:30

       ... and that means following certain rules. And, a- and that's what, that's what brains just wanna do. That, that brains don't really care about what's true. Brains are always asking this question, "Who do I have to be and what do I have to believe in order to earn connection and status?"

   13. JRJoe Rogan3:45

       Yes.

   14. WSWill Storr3:45

       So we're all vulnerable to this stuff.

   15. JRJoe Rogan3:46

       Yes.

   16. WSWill Storr3:46

       And that's how people end up believing fucking crazy things, because the brain's just believing what it has to believe.

3. 3:52 – 5:50

   Audience capture and “active belief”: when identity-beliefs possess people

   1. JRJoe Rogan3:52

      I've seen it with people that get what the, what you call audience capture-

   2. WSWill Storr3:57

      Yeah, absolutely.

   3. JRJoe Rogan3:57

      ... where their audience, they find... they get some love. You can only... if you're doing it politically, you can only do it once.

   4. WSWill Storr4:03

      (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan4:03

      It's a dangerous move. It's like changing g- genders. Like, you can't go male to female and then back to male again.

   6. WSWill Storr4:08

      (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan4:08

      It's fucking... it's too complicated.

   8. WSWill Storr4:09

      It's a one shot deal, yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan4:11

      Right? So you get one shot.

   10. WSWill Storr4:12

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan4:12

       If you start out a liberal, you're a lifelong liberal.

   12. WSWill Storr4:14

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan4:14

       And then at 36, all of a sudden you become, like, the most hardcore right-wing Republican.

   14. WSWill Storr4:20

       (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan4:20

       Like, (sighs) that seems like I... Well, what did you believe before and what happened? Did you take mushrooms?

   16. WSWill Storr4:27

       (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan4:27

       Did you fall on your head?

   18. WSWill Storr4:28

       (laughs) Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan4:29

       Like, did something happen where you just radically changed your ideology? Or did you get captured by the idea of being accepted with much more vigor by the other side? Like, that's one thing that they really do enjoy, when someone bails-

   20. WSWill Storr4:44

       Mm-hmm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan4:44

       ... on the other side-

   22. WSWill Storr4:45

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan4:45

       ... and then jo- y- again, you can only do it once-

   24. WSWill Storr4:47

       (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan4:47

       ... but you get, like, really embraced.

   26. WSWill Storr4:49

       That's right, and, and the m- and the more you're embraced, the more you, um, believe, uh, uh, and y-

   27. JRJoe Rogan4:54

       Yes.

   28. WSWill Storr4:54

       Yeah, I mean, it, there, there's this concept that I write about that c- I call it active belief. Like, there are loads of beliefs that we have, like, how long is the Mississippi River? H- you know, what... how do you... wha- what is coffee? Like, we don't argue about these beliefs. But there are certain categories of belief that, that possess us, and these are the beliefs that, that, that we form our identity around and they're the beliefs that we plug our status into. So y- you know, like, if you're a Christian, it's like, "I believe Jesus died and then three days e- la- later got up." And, and as I said, you know, like, th- these beliefs are kind of dangerous because they take us over. W- it, it's not enough just to believe them passively. You have to act them out with your life.

   29. JRJoe Rogan5:33

       Mm-hmm.

   30. WSWill Storr5:33

       And so that... these are the beliefs that drive things like the Satanic panic, cult movements, communism, Nazism. Um, th-these are beliefs that sort of possess people and take them over. It's like a parasite. They're kind of scary things. But as I said, you know, we're all vulnerable to these kind of active beliefs.

4. 5:50 – 17:26

   Cults as tightened status games: rules, language, certainty, and vulnerability

   1. JRJoe Rogan5:50

      I, I'm fascinated by cult documentaries and, uh- (laughs)

   2. WSWill Storr5:55

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan5:55

      I was talking to my friend Todd. We were talking about Wild Wild Country, and we both said the same thing.

   4. WSWill Storr6:00

      Ah, yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan6:00

      "God, in the beginning, it looked awesome."

   6. WSWill Storr6:02

      (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan6:02

      (laughs) "In the beginning, it looked very..."

   8. NANarrator6:03

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan6:03

      "They were having so much fun."

   10. WSWill Storr6:05

       Yeah, yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan6:05

       And I think of myself at 21...And I, I had no real, like, confidence in my view of the world.

   12. WSWill Storr6:17

       Mm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan6:17

       I had no ... I, I was 21. I was a, a young dummy.

   14. WSWill Storr6:20

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan6:21

       I did not know, you know, what was correct and what was incorrect. I, I, I had a general sense, my family was very left-wing. We grew up ... My parents were hippies in San Francisco. So, I had sort of an ideology attached to that. But I had no idea how anything in the world worked.

   16. WSWill Storr6:40

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan6:41

       And if I ran into the wrong yoga teacher ... (laughs)

   18. WSWill Storr6:44

       (laughs) No, but that's it. But, but that, but, but that's how humans work. You know, with this tribal animal.

   19. JRJoe Rogan6:48

       Yeah.

   20. WSWill Storr6:48

       And we, uh, uh, and, uh, and nobody has any idea how the world works until they plug into a group. And the group has its stories that it tells about how the world works. Every group has its model of what a hero is.

   21. JRJoe Rogan6:59

       Yeah.

   22. WSWill Storr6:59

       And its set of beliefs a hero has. And, and once we've plugged into that group, we be- you, you know, we orient ourselves towards becoming that-

   23. JRJoe Rogan7:08

       Yes.

   24. WSWill Storr7:08

       ... that person. And, you know, cults are interesting 'cause cults are like ... All human groups are kind of cults, but looser. So, so every-

   25. JRJoe Rogan7:15

       Yeah.

   26. WSWill Storr7:15

       ... human group is a status game, in the sense that it's a, a group of people who, um, believe the same things, and there's sort of rules for being part of that group. And the more ... The, the better you become at following those rules and b- and becoming its ideal of self, uh, the higher you rise up that status game. The only difference between cult and a religion and a business and a political group is just it's much tighter.

   27. JRJoe Rogan7:38

       Mm.

   28. WSWill Storr7:38

       So, the rules are much stricter. Like, there's a zillion rules, like, um, you know, I've written before about, um, uh, what they call the, the, the, uh, th- th- th- uh, th- th- there was the, what was the cult that they cut their, they castrated themselves?

   29. JRJoe Rogan7:51

       Yeah, Heaven's Gate.

   30. WSWill Storr7:52

       Heaven's Gate, that's right.
5. 17:26 – 21:33

   Scientology, celebrity identity, and religion’s functional role in status & belonging

   1. JRJoe Rogan17:26

      Right. Well, that's why, you know, one of the fascinating things about some cults is that they use very bizarre language and that they all agree to it.

   2. WSWill Storr17:33

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan17:33

      They have, like, specific terms that they say. Like, doesn't Scientologists ... They'll call people ... They have, like, an abbreviation for someone who's, like, a hostile person. (laughs)

   4. WSWill Storr17:42

      (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan17:42

      What is it that they do? Because I remember someone was ... Some- (laughs) Someone was explaining to me, someone who left the church was explaining to me how, like, if someone would be hostile, you have, like, a very specific way you describe them.

   6. WSWill Storr17:56

      Yeah. Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan17:56

      And that they all do it in the group.

   8. WSWill Storr17:57

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan17:57

      And they ... It's like-

   10. NANarrator17:58

       Suppressive persons.

   11. JRJoe Rogan17:59

       That. Suppressive persons.

   12. NANarrator18:00

       (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan18:00

       Yes. You're, you're a suppressive person.

   14. NANarrator18:02

       Or potential trouble sources.

   15. WSWill Storr18:03

       (laughs)

   16. JRJoe Rogan18:04

       Dude, I ordered Dianetics in, like, 1994. I had just moved to LA, and I thought it was a self-help book.

   17. WSWill Storr18:11

       (laughs)

   18. JRJoe Rogan18:11

       I was like, "All right. Yeah. Fucking, look at, your brain's gonna explode."

   19. WSWill Storr18:14

       Yeah. Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan18:14

       "You gotta get your shit together. Look at all these people that are succeeding on Dianetics."

   21. WSWill Storr18:18

       (laughs)

   22. JRJoe Rogan18:18

       You know? I was 26 or whatever it was. So I order this book, and they never stopped sending me things.

   23. WSWill Storr18:25

       Oh, no.

   24. JRJoe Rogan18:25

       I mean, they fucking never stopped sending me things.

   25. WSWill Storr18:27

       Was there ever a point when you thought, "Hang on a minute. This is quite interesting."

   26. JRJoe Rogan18:30

       No.

   27. WSWill Storr18:30

       "No. All right."

   28. JRJoe Rogan18:31

       No, no. Once I realized it was Scientology, I was like-

   29. WSWill Storr18:33

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan18:33

       ... "Oh."
6. 21:33 – 29:51

   Modern life, lost conversation, and ‘bad faith’ roles: how jobs and groups shape the self

   1. JRJoe Rogan21:33

      I, I think there's another factor, and the, the other factor is, I think, because of the nature of, uh, commuting and public transportation-

   2. WSWill Storr21:44

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan21:44

      ... and of, uh, g- going to work all day and then, you know, you know, being under someone else's control most of the day and then commuting home, you, I think we're conversation-starved.

   4. WSWill Storr21:55

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan21:55

      I think the way human beings figure out what's the best way to behave and what's the, the nicest way that we can all get along, what, what makes the most sense, is when we talk the most.

   6. WSWill Storr22:05

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan22:06

      And most of the day, you can't really talk. Most of the day, you can't sit down for a couple hours, like this, and just say, "Why do we behave this way? Why is there this weird p- pattern that is so strong and so, such a tightly cut groove that cutting your balls off-"

   8. WSWill Storr22:24

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan22:24

      "... and wearing purple sneakers becomes appealing?"

   10. WSWill Storr22:27

       Yeah. Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan22:27

       Like, it could fit right in there.

   12. WSWill Storr22:28

       Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan22:28

       Like-

   14. WSWill Storr22:28

       (laughs) Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan22:28

       ... it seems to be, there's, like, a pathway for this.

   16. WSWill Storr22:31

       Yeah. And, and, uh, and that's how humans communicate, is, you know, we, we sit down and we tell stories to each other.

   17. JRJoe Rogan22:36

       Yeah.

   18. WSWill Storr22:36

       And, and-

   19. JRJoe Rogan22:36

       And if we don't get to talk...

   20. WSWill Storr22:37

       Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

   21. JRJoe Rogan22:39

       ... we're, we're very lucky-

   22. WSWill Storr22:40

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan22:40

       ... we get to talk. But most people don't get to talk like this.

   24. WSWill Storr22:43

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan22:43

       They don't have the time.

   26. WSWill Storr22:44

       Absolutely. Yeah. A- a- a- and that's to our huge cost.

   27. JRJoe Rogan22:48

       Yes.

   28. WSWill Storr22:48

       Like, it really, uh, b- because where do we get the stories from? We get them from social media. We get them from the news, which is increasingly politicized and hysterical.

   29. JRJoe Rogan22:57

       Yeah.

   30. WSWill Storr22:57

       And so we, you know, the outrage goes up, this, this goes up.
7. 29:51 – 39:21

   From 1960s counterculture to 1980s neoliberalism: how rule-changes reshape values

   1. JRJoe Rogan29:51

      And, you know, when we think about the way our world changed four years ago. I mean, it's kind of similar in a way, like the whole like, "What the fuck happened?"

   2. WSWill Storr30:00

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan30:01

      Four years later, you're like, "What the fuck happened?"

   4. WSWill Storr30:03

      Yeah, yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan30:04

      And I think with us, though, there's hope that we'll eventually get to some place of normalcy, and, uh, and, and, uh, some semblance of peace. But what, what happened in the 1960s is fucking bananas.

   6. WSWill Storr30:20

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan30:20

      I mean, they, they basically turned this counterculture, hippie love movement-... into Charles Manson, and the Manson family, and the fucking CIA was dosing people with-

   8. WSWill Storr30:31

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan30:31

      ... LSD, and-

   10. WSWill Storr30:32

       Yeah. Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan30:33

       ... they were doing anything they can to stop the antiwar movement-

   12. WSWill Storr30:36

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan30:36

       ... anything they can to stop these hippies, and made everything illegal. They made marijuana... Well, marijuana's already illegal, but all the Schedule I substances. That's all the sweeping part of the 1970 Psychedelic Act-

   14. WSWill Storr30:47

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan30:47

       ... that was all about the Civil Rights Movement. It was all about g- or just arresting people for any kind of protests, any anti-government, antiwar. "Let's find these hippies. Everything's illegal. Fuck you, go to jail," and they put water on it. They just put the fire out.

   16. WSWill Storr31:03

       Wow, I didn't know that.

   17. JRJoe Rogan31:04

       They pulled the... put the fire out-

   18. WSWill Storr31:06

       Wow.

   19. JRJoe Rogan31:06

       ... on this psychedelic counterculture that was the 1960s, and we paid for it, artistically. (laughs)

   20. WSWill Storr31:11

       (laughs) Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan31:12

       If you look at the 1980s-

   22. WSWill Storr31:13

       Yeah, yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan31:13

       ... it's a fucking disaster.

   24. WSWill Storr31:14

       Yeah, yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan31:15

       What happened in the 1980s?

   26. WSWill Storr31:16

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan31:16

       It's like these people, all they had was cocaine.

   28. WSWill Storr31:19

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan31:19

       They're just doing cocaine and alcohol, and the movies are f- out of control.

   30. WSWill Storr31:23

       Yeah, I mean, the, uh, the, the 1980s, uh, uh, uh, y-... The other thing that changed was, of course, was the economy in the 1980s, and that was the... for me, that's the big thing that, that changed.
8. 39:21 – 43:54

   Profit, public companies, and endless growth: status as a bottomless resource

   1. JRJoe Rogan39:21

      If you... (sighs) I, you know, we just have this re- real weird desire to never stop making more.

   2. WSWill Storr39:31

      Mm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan39:31

      Like, real weird desire to, like, maximize profit-

   4. WSWill Storr39:36

      Mm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan39:37

      ... expand, expand, make it big. Nobody ever has a company and goes, "We're good."

   6. WSWill Storr39:41

      Yeah, be-

   7. JRJoe Rogan39:41

      Just, like, leave it like this.

   8. WSWill Storr39:42

      That's because status is relative.

   9. JRJoe Rogan39:44

      Right.

   10. WSWill Storr39:45

       A- a- an- and, and so you're, you're always insecure about your, like, you don't... Status is this imaginary resource.

   11. JRJoe Rogan39:51

       Right.

   12. WSWill Storr39:51

       Like, it only exists in our minds and in the minds of other people. So, you can't keep it.

   13. JRJoe Rogan39:55

       But it's there also.

   14. WSWill Storr39:55

       You can't, you can't put it in a box, so you're constantly having to make sure that it's still there, it's still there. You're constantly measuring-

   15. JRJoe Rogan40:02

       Yeah.

   16. WSWill Storr40:02

       ... your state. Like, Apple are measuring their status versus Google and Samsung-

   17. JRJoe Rogan40:06

       Right.

   18. WSWill Storr40:06

       ... or whoever. So, there, there's that, there's that constant cheepiness. So, so, you're always trying to ratchet up. Th- there was this really hilarious study they did, where they, they got a bunch of m- multiple millionaires and billionaires, and they asked them, "How much more money would you need to be perfectly happy?" And uniformly, they said, "Between two and three times more money."

   19. JRJoe Rogan40:26

       (laughs)

   20. WSWill Storr40:26

       And it's like- (laughs) and it's like, "You're not gonna be perfectly happy. You delusional." But that's, that's the human brain. So, we, so, so, we, we think, "Well, when I, wha- when I've achieved this thing, I'll be perfectly happy." But no, of course, we, we are happy for about 10 seconds, then we want the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. And actually, like, i- it's exhausting, but it's also how we built civilization. It's also an incredible, amazing thing that we're restless, we're never satisfied, we want better and better and better and better. Like, it drives us forward.

   21. JRJoe Rogan40:53

       Yeah. Well, it's, uh, I was gonna say about the McDonald's thing, it's also a function of being a part of a public company.

   22. WSWill Storr40:58

       Mm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan40:58

       You have an obligation to your shareholders to make more money. Like, the whole idea-

   24. WSWill Storr41:02

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan41:02

       ... is let's make more money. We have to-

   26. WSWill Storr41:03

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JRJoe Rogan41:03

       ... make more money. Let's make-

   28. WSWill Storr41:04

       'Cause it's-

   29. JRJoe Rogan41:04

       ... more money. (laughs)

   30. WSWill Storr41:05

       (laughs) Yeah.
9. 43:54 – 48:52

   Status drives innovation (and risk): AI as the next ‘dominant life form’ narrative

   1. JRJoe Rogan43:54

      You... It's a game you can never win. And I think it's designed to make human beings create aliens.

   2. WSWill Storr44:01

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan44:01

      That's what I think.

   4. WSWill Storr44:02

      What do you do?

   5. JRJoe Rogan44:02

      This is my thought.

   6. WSWill Storr44:03

      Okay.

   7. JRJoe Rogan44:03

      I think that is desi-... I think this whole, like, competing with the Joneses, keeping up with the Joneses... What does it... It always fuels technology at the end of the day.

   8. WSWill Storr44:13

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan44:13

      'Cause that's the thing you buy, like, every year. People buy phones and laptops. If you're really balling, you buy a new laptop every couple years, you know?

   10. WSWill Storr44:21

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan44:21

       And that is... You're constantly looking for new processors, new innovation. What... Is it an AR? How big is the battery? What's the battery life? And it's constantly going in this general direction of ever-complex technology that interfaces with human beings, and now with AI. And it's gonna be an artificial life form.

   12. WSWill Storr44:39

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan44:39

       And whether it's 10 years from now or 20 years from now or it's already happening in a fucking lab in Ohio.

   14. WSWill Storr44:45

       Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan44:46

       (laughs)

   16. WSWill Storr44:47

       Doubtless. Doubtless.

   17. JRJoe Rogan44:47

       It might already be happening right now, where they have an artificial life form, and that's gonna be the new-

   18. WSWill Storr44:54

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JRJoe Rogan44:54

       ... dominant life form on Earth.

   20. WSWill Storr44:56

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan44:56

       It'll be far smarter. It'll... It hopefully will coexist with it.

   22. WSWill Storr45:02

       Where, where... It comes from... Yeah, I mean, it... And it comes from the tribe. It comes from... Well, it comes from before we were human. We've been competing for status since before we were human-

   23. JRJoe Rogan45:10

       Yes.

   24. WSWill Storr45:10

       ... since we were animals. Well, we're still are animals, but since before we were human animals. And in the, in the, in the tribes in which we evolved, the more status that you earned, the more food you got, the better food you got-

   25. JRJoe Rogan45:19

       Right.

   26. WSWill Storr45:19

       ... the safer your sleeping sites, the greater your access to your choice of mates. So, basically, every th-... Uh, the more status that you get in your group, e- everything gets better.

   27. JRJoe Rogan45:28

       And wouldn't that motivate you to make the most complex thing a human being has ever made?

   28. WSWill Storr45:33

       100% it will, yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan45:33

       An artificial human. 100%, right?

   30. WSWill Storr45:35

       Yeah. And it's not about the money or the bling or the...
10. 48:52 – 59:40

    Status under the hood: voice hierarchies, why communism fails, and the urge to flip rankings

    1. WSWill Storr48:52

       Mm-hmm. But it would never stop being played because we're storytelling animals and we tell stories about, about status. And, and, and-

    2. JRJoe Rogan48:57

       Yeah.

    3. WSWill Storr48:58

       And, uh, I think one of the sort of key things that... The s- things that I kind of realized when I was doing the book was that-... the conscious experience of life is a story, but the subconscious reality is this game. The brain's constantly playing a game for status. And this, we've got all this insane subconscious technology that we use for measuring our status versus other people that we're completely unaware of. Like, there's one about the tone of voice during conversation, they call it the paraverbal frequency band.

    4. JRJoe Rogan49:25

       Hmm.

    5. WSWill Storr49:25

       And you can't hear it, um, consciously, b- b- b- but it's a way of organizing status hierarchies when we meet people. And the person who's top sets the tone, and everybody else matches to meet the tone. And these, um, psychologists studied a bunch of Larry King interviews, (laughs) a bit, a bit like this one.

    6. JRJoe Rogan49:45

       (laughs)

    7. WSWill Storr49:45

       And they, and they, and they stripped out the paraverbal frequency band, and they could work out who he felt superior to versus who he felt inferior to. So he, he, he, he felt inferior to, I think it was, uh, Liz Taylor.

    8. JRJoe Rogan49:57

       (laughs)

    9. WSWill Storr49:57

       And, uh, uh, and, uh, uh, and superior to Dan Quayle.

    10. JRJoe Rogan50:02

        Ah.

    11. WSWill Storr50:02

        And th- there were particular interviews which were very irascible and didn't go very well, and there was, they were kind of d- well, they weren't getting along, and that one of them was Dan Quayle. And they found that those, that they were just not matching. So, so there's all this stuff going on beneath the hood of consciousness which is constantly organizing us into kind of status games. Um, a- and so, you know, so that's... And, and it's that causes the hierarchies of life. That's the reason why communism can never work, (laughs) because, you know, they're trying to wipe out the, the effects of status in society. But you can't wipe out the effects of status in society, because it's in our, it's in our brains. You go into an elevator with three other people, and you've already figured out within seconds who's the highest status, you know, where you sit in the pecking order, who's got the nice luggage, who's getting out of the, the suites floor at the top. You know, we, we can't help but do it. And, and so that's, that constant work of the subconscious brain figuring out where we sit in the status hierarchy creates human life.

    12. JRJoe Rogan51:00

        Yeah, that's why Fidel Castro lived in a fucking mansion.

    13. WSWill Storr51:03

        Yeah, absolutely. (laughs)

    14. JRJoe Rogan51:05

        (laughs)

    15. WSWill Storr51:05

        Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, no.

    16. JRJoe Rogan51:06

        That, that's, there's communism, that's how it works.

    17. WSWill Storr51:08

        Yeah, yeah.

    18. JRJoe Rogan51:08

        One guy and a bunch of fucking people-

    19. WSWill Storr51:10

        (laughs)

    20. JRJoe Rogan51:10

        ... with guns tell you what the fuck you're gonna do.

    21. WSWill Storr51:12

        Yeah, that's it. I mean, look at Stalin.

    22. JRJoe Rogan51:13

        And that's the only way it works.

    23. WSWill Storr51:14

        I mean, he was treated like a god. I mean, look-

    24. JRJoe Rogan51:16

        Yeah, exactly.

    25. WSWill Storr51:16

        Like, the whole idea of communism, they wanted to create a kingdom of equality, they called it.

    26. JRJoe Rogan51:20

        Yeah.

    27. WSWill Storr51:21

        It was like, come on. I mean, you know?

    28. JRJoe Rogan51:22

        But the funny thing is when you talk to people about this and you just point out these just logical patterns-

    29. WSWill Storr51:27

        Mm-hmm.

    30. JRJoe Rogan51:27

        ... of human behavior, it doesn't work. You can't just have equality of outcome, it doesn't exist.
11. 59:40 – 1:07:58

    Woke/online activism as a virtue-status economy: minority dominance, media gatekeeping, and moral conformity

    1. WSWill Storr59:40

       Yeah. (laughs) Yeah. But that, but that, but that also characterizes... I'm not saying that the kind of woke thing is the same as communism, but it has echoes of it.

    2. JRJoe Rogan59:46

       Yes.

    3. WSWill Storr59:46

       And it, and it, and it, and it's the same flipping of the hierarchy. So, so when I was doing my research into communism, there's this phrase that came up. So the, the, the, the former bourgeoisie, wealthy business people and the children of them were called former people. You were f- It's a dismissive... You were former people.

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:01

       Wow.

    5. WSWill Storr1:00:02

       And that's how... You know, when you think about how especially, you know, men, especially white men, especially straight white men are treated at the moment.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:09

       Yeah. Talk. Preach, brother. (laughs)

    7. WSWill Storr1:00:11

       They're, they're, they're, they're, they're form-

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:13

       (laughs)

    9. WSWill Storr1:00:13

       They're former... You know, they're, they're, they're made to feel like former people.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:00:15

        Yeah.

    11. WSWill Storr1:00:15

        Like, there's a whole generation of guys who are being raised in a culture where they're being made to feel, "You've had your turn. Sit down. Shut up. The future is not for you. The future is for people who don't look like you or think like you."

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:00:27

        100%.

    13. WSWill Storr1:00:27

        And so, so, so that, that, that former people really resonated with me. It's like, "You, you straight white men, you're former people. You're yesterday's people. You're not the future. You're not tomorrow, so sit down and shut up."

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:00:38

        I was watching an argument on Twitter-

    15. WSWill Storr1:00:39

        Yeah.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:00:40

        ... where this man and this woman were going at it. And the man said something that was factually correct-

    17. WSWill Storr1:00:45

        Yeah.

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:00:46

        ... and the woman said, "If you think that I'm going to take information from a straight white man..."

    19. WSWill Storr1:00:53

        (laughs)

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:00:53

        (laughs) That was their comeback.

    21. WSWill Storr1:00:57

        Yeah. God.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:00:57

        That was their comeback. "I'm not taking that information coming from a straight white man."

    23. WSWill Storr1:01:00

        Yeah, yeah.

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:01:00

        Like, the last thing we need right now is straight white men speaking.

    25. WSWill Storr1:01:03

        Well, I- I've had that.

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:01:04

        "Don't speak, just listen."

    27. WSWill Storr1:01:06

        Yeah. (laughs)

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:01:06

        "It's time to listen," that's my favorite. "Just please be quiet and listen."

    29. WSWill Storr1:01:11

        Uh-

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:01:11

        Like, hey, sometimes that's good advice and sometimes you're just telling people you wanna talk.

Episode duration: 2:36:17