EVERY SPOKEN WORD
155 min read · 30,851 words- 0:00 – 15:00
(drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast,…
- BWBilly Walters
(drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) What's happening, Billy? Good to see you.
- BWBilly Walters
It's good- good seeing you, Joe. It's good being here. Thank you.
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, so you know George Knapp?
- BWBilly Walters
I do.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's crazy.
- BWBilly Walters
I do know George, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you get involved in the whole UFO thing with him?
- BWBilly Walters
Not really.
- JRJoe Rogan
No?
- BWBilly Walters
Uh, uh, I knew George, uh, got introduced to him, you know, his, uh, the way he pays the bills, he's, uh, he's in, uh, he, he covers the news in Las Vegas and does a lot of feature stories and, uh, that's how I met George and, uh, we've become good friends over the years. I have a tremendous amount of respect for George and the work he does.
- JRJoe Rogan
He's a great man.
- BWBilly Walters
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
A real good guy too.
- BWBilly Walters
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Did he cover your story?
- BWBilly Walters
Uh, George has covered a lot of stories involving me, uh, over the years.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- BWBilly Walters
I've been in Las Vegas, I moved there permanently in 1982 and since I've been there, uh, I've been involved in a lot of different things, indictments. I did, uh, I've done quite a bit of business there. Uh, the biggest business mistakes I probably made, uh, I did some businesses there with, uh, I did some public/private partnerships with, with local government and I didn't make any money. Matter of fact, lost quite a bit of money but, uh, uh, I got quite a bit of notoriety that I wasn't looking for. I, I got involved in a world that I didn't totally understand until I got into it. It, uh, I got into it for business and found myself wrapped up in a political world and, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oof.
- BWBilly Walters
Yeah, and that wasn't good.
- JRJoe Rogan
They think gambling's a dirty business.
- BWBilly Walters
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
The political world, that's the real dirty business, right?
- BWBilly Walters
Yeah, I would agree with that. It's, uh, (sighs) I've, I've met a lot of, uh, people over the years, uh, in that world and, uh, have a lot of respect for some and of course, I'll, I'll withhold my thoughts and comments about others.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) That's a game that you don't want to bet on, right? Because that, that is a rigged game.
- BWBilly Walters
Yeah, that's a pretty tough game. That's, that when there's, uh, uh, that was pretty much over before you get involved I think in most cases.
- JRJoe Rogan
So I- I've been paying attention to your story and it's pretty wild, man. You, you essentially started gambling in a pool hall when you were about six years old.
- BWBilly Walters
That's right. Yep. That's a very young age to get the bug. (laughs) Yeah, well it's kind of interesting how I, how I got there. Uh, you know, my father passed away when I was a year and a half old and my mother left, uh, to find work. I was born and raised in a small rural town in central Kentucky, a little town called Munfordville. And, uh, um, I, I was lucky. I had two sisters who were older than me and, uh, and, uh, my grandmother on my father's side took my oldest sister, uh, my aunt on my father's side took my other sister and my mother, my, my grandmother, uh, on my mother's side took me to raise me. And luckily for me, I couldn't have had four parents. I couldn't have had a better role model than her. She, uh, worked two jobs. Uh, she was an extremely proud lady. She wouldn't have taken any assistance from anyone if her life depended on it. (clears throat) And so I learned a lot of things from her early on in life that have been, uh, extremely important to me and have kind of carried me through to where I'm at today. And, uh, she worked these two jobs, I mean, the first places, Joe, I ever went when I left my home were a Baptist church. You know, Sunday school on Sunday morning, uh, you know, church afterwards. Training union on Sunday night, prayer meeting on Wednesday night, and I went to a Christian youth organization on Sunday night called the Royal Ambassadors. But, uh, when I was around four, my grandmother, she had this two, these two jobs and, uh, she had to have someone to keep an eye on me. Well, my Uncle Harry had a pool room. So she started dropping me off at the pool room when I was four years old and my Uncle Harry (clears throat) , he went to the back pool table, he put up a couple old wood and Coca-Cola cases, handed me a pool stick and he went back to work and, uh, I actually started banging pool balls when I was four. And, uh, by the time I'm six, I'm racking balls in Uncle Harry's pool room and, uh, playing penny nine ball. So, uh, my life when I was six, um, in church five times a week and, uh, I'm at my Uncle Harry's pool room, uh, and, and I'm- and I just began the first grade. So that was my life.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- 15:00 – 30:00
It seems like such…
- BWBilly Walters
which makes no sense. Because what happens if they wait till the day of the game or the day before the game and they take a full-limit bet, they have a, they have a small amount of time to get action back the other way. I mean, if you're a bookmaker, what's book, uh, what is bookmaking? It's taking bets both ways and you're trying to earn the vigorish. Okay, you're not, you're, you're really not trying to gamble. You're, you know, there's gonna be times you're gonna be lopsided on one game, but what you're, you're, you know, you're... The, the ideal thing for a bookmaker is to have as many, have as many bets on one side as he does the other and the volume equal out, and you've earned the juice and basically you got no risk or very little risk. Okay, so but I can't answer your question as to why some people today wait until later on. I mean, I think in their minds they may think, "Well, maybe the line's more solid or something. That's the only way I could..." But at the end of the day, the line by Thursday is solid as a rock. And I think if I were a bookmaker, and I have been a bookmaker, as soon as I feel like the line is solid on whatever the sport is, I want to take a, as many bets as I can take as early as I can take them to, to move my line to draw action back on the other side. But you've got people out there today that, uh, some, not all, uh, the guys that I think are smart, uh, or smarter bookmakers, they start taking, you know, full-limit bets on Thursday because that gives them, they, that gives them Sunday night, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. Now they feel like the sol- the line is solid, and it is solid. But if they take a bet on a Thursday, they got Friday, they got Saturday, they got Sunday to try to get back, action back on the other side. So it's, uh... But you have different strategies from different guys. You got s- you got a lot of guys out there today, Joe, that are booking, they really don't know anything about booking. You know, they, they, they're great at creating databases, they're great at creating, you know, generating customer accounts and what have you, but they really don't understand the art of bookmaking. And, uh, you know, they've got these preconceived opinions that, uh, you know, that, and what most of them do, they'll go hire someone who, to be their bookmaker, and they'll look at that guy's, uh, you know, they'll, they'll look at his background or his bio, and he'll have, he would have worked at some place in Las Vegas at some hotel, and he'll have a title of XYZ or whatever it is. And they, you know, they don't really know anything about bookmaking. This guy looks like the real deal. He's been interviewed and you, you read the things that were written about him, and you would think he, you know, he knows what he's doing. So they hire the guy, they put him in that position. And a lot of those guys don't know anything about booking. They really don't. And what they do know is they know they don't, don't, don't, they know that they don't, don't know a lot about booking, okay? And so as a result, what they do instead of trying to promote and create action, they're, they're trying to... A, a lot of things that they do, in my opinion, uh, it, uh, uh, it keeps action down, so to speak. Hmm. Hmm. Now there's exceptions to the rule. You know, you've got a sports book in Cir- uh, in Las Vegas called Circa.They're open to anyone and everyone that comes in the door. I don't care who you are, uh, and they have room limits. They give everyone the same room limits, and they're generous limits. I mean, on NFL, you can bet $50,000 a game. On college football, you can bet up to $50,000 a game. Sometimes they take 20s, sometimes they take 30s, uh, but they're smart. They're, these guys know how to book. I mean, and they, they want to, uh... I, anyone can open an account. I have an account there myself. Uh, if they take a bet from me, they move the line, and, uh, they're gonna force somebody back on, on the other side of that bet. But they know how to book. There's guys there, Nick Bogdanovich, uh, has been in the business for a long, long time, and others. They know, they understand the art of bookmaking. Uh, uh, and you've got others in Las Vegas that, uh... and you've got others in other parts of the world that really understand bookmaking. I mean, you've got, uh, you know, you've got some guys, uh, uh, offshore that understand it extremely well.
- JRJoe Rogan
It seems like such a complicated and stress-filled life, and when you're, you're telling me things like you're, you're spending millions of dollars every year on research.
- BWBilly Walters
(clears throat)
- JRJoe Rogan
Before the internet, what kind of research are you getting? Like how are you getting research on NFL teams or boxers or a- anything, whatever you're gambling on?
- BWBilly Walters
Uh, well, prior to the internet, (clears throat) there, uh, uh... Some of the information today that you can, you know, you can get off your smartphone was, was, was golden. I mean, I used to have a crew of guys when I first moved to Las Vegas in '82. We would send them out to the airport, and, uh, we had relationships with the various airlines, and we would be able to get the newspapers that came, came off of all the planes that flew into Las Vegas. And then, and they were filled with local sports stories that were, you know, written by that local sports writer.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- BWBilly Walters
And, and then we'd bring them back and, and we had readers who read those stories, and anything that they read in one of those stories that, that they felt like was material to that particular game, uh, it would be passed along to, to the handicapper. And, uh, and today, you know, you can read a thousand newspapers online and get that same information. Or you could... Uh, uh, we have a program that we've written now that, uh, you know, I could... We have like 140 beat writers in, in the NFL that we cover. Anything that that beat writer writes or anything that comes out on Twitter or social media, you know, uh, the program we have, it will scrape it and we, we have that immediately. We know... And so if there's a story there and there's anything in that story that we feel like that is going to have any real meaning toward the game, you know, we're able to take that. A lot of time, you know, the time involved with it is everything too, because eventually that story is gonna come out everywhere.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BWBilly Walters
But back, back when you're talking about prior to the internet, (clears throat) we, uh... And, and, you know, uh, Joe, way, way back, it's kind of crazy, but I used to have a Zenith Transan- Oceanic radio and, uh, used to... I would sit and listen to pre-game shows and post-game shows. But the other thing I used to do is I would call a lot of, uh, the cities, and I, I, uh, had people in all these cities. And I would have someone to put the phone up to the r- up to the radio, and I would listen to the pre-game show.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- BWBilly Walters
And I would listen to the post-game show.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- BWBilly Walters
And yeah, and you, and you were able to learn a lot from that. And, uh, today, you know, information is, it's, it's, it's a lot more accessible than it was then.
- JRJoe Rogan
So you would send people to the airport, they would find these local papers.
- BWBilly Walters
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And you would scour these papers and go through these articles.
- BWBilly Walters
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And what specifically are you looking for? Hard hits? Injuries? How someone's doing? Exceptional plays? Someone who's really coming up? What, what, what would you be looking for?
- BWBilly Walters
Well, you're looking for injuries, and, and, and you're looking for game plans. And, uh, you know, as an example, if a coach says, "Look, you know, we're gonna... You know, we're gonna slow this thing down. We're gonna start running the ball," uh, you know, uh, first thing, uh, comes... Uh, total is not going to be as much if he starts, slows this thing down, he starts running the ball, you know, they're, they're not going to get as many plays and, and there's probably a pr- pretty high possibility that the total is, is going to come down some on this game. Uh, they talk about players, they talk about injuries, espe- you know, especially the quarterback. You know, if you're talking about the quarterback and you've got a quarterback who's playing injured, I mean, how that's going to affect his performance is, is really important.
- JRJoe Rogan
And they're always kind of playing injured, right?
- BWBilly Walters
Always playing injured is, as y- you talked about in the book I wrote. You know there's 1,400 players in the NFL. There's about 600 of them that have a value. And we have a value assigned to each and every one of those individual players. But as you, as you're, as you've noted, a lot of them, almost every one of them are playing with some type of an injury once the season begins. Okay, then, okay, who's playing? Uh, again, we listen and we follow Dr. David Chow quite a bit. And, uh, we think he does an excellent job. Uh, he's on Sirius on the NFL Network, and he talks about the key players on a weekly basis, and, uh, and from an injuries perspective how, how he feels like that's going to, uh, affect their performance. There, there are many more players that Dr. Chow doesn't cover that we cover, uh, that are playing injured. And again, we do a lot of reading. We've got 140 beat writers we cover. Uh, I have a guy on my team, he's a qualitative guy. He's not a computer guy, right? He probably knows more about the NFL, as far as a qualitative guy is concerned, I believe than any man alive. Okay?
- JRJoe Rogan
What do you mean by that, a qualitative guy?
- BWBilly Walters
Um, well, okay. The 1,400 players, he knows who they are. Okay? He knows, uh...He, he knows their positions. Uh, h- he knows what the value of those players are, as far as we're concerned. I- he knows how to adjust their value based upon their injury. And, and after we get the medical information, we'll figure out how we feel like their, their, uh, performance is going to be affected against that particular opponent that week. And then we ... If, if a, if a player's worth a point and a half, w- we may downgrade him, but he's only worth three-quarters of a point or he may be worth a point. If a guy's out, okay, well, we got a backup. We know the value of the guys out. What's a backup worth? Okay. Backup could be worth zero. He could be worth, you know, half a point, and he's replacing a guy that's a point-and-a-half guy, so we have to downgrade the power rating by a point that week. And the other thing w- this qualitative guy, he watches every NFL game. He grades every play. Okay. How many times have you watched a football game and you'll see the score wa- it wasn't indicative of, at all, of what the score should have been? So let's say, you know, a receiver's going down the field and, uh, and he didn't have anybody within 20 yards of him, and he, he gets thrown a perfect pass and he just drops it. Okay. Well, he was unlucky. He, he shouldn't have had that pass. On the other hand, let's say he's going down the field ... And, uh, we had a pass like that in the playoffs, uh, when San Francisco was playing Detroit. Uh, they threw a ball and it, it hit a helmet, rich- ricocheted, and ended up in a, in a, in a real long completion and a touchdown. Well, that was lucky. Okay. So when we look at the box score, we look at the yardage, we take that off.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- BWBilly Walters
Okay? You know, there's, there's plays that happen, uh, in the NFL when you look, when you look at box scores, as far as we're concerned, they're misleading. Okay. When you look at the total amount of yards, you know, everybody kind of looks at the same thing. You know, you look at the time possession, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
So you have to go over each individual play and-
- BWBilly Walters
Every play.
- JRJoe Rogan
... deduct all the lucky shit.
- BWBilly Walters
Yeah. And, and then, and then we have player participation. We know who played in every play. So-
- JRJoe Rogan
God, you got to keep up on all this.
- 30:00 – 45:00
Yeah. …
- BWBilly Walters
there's a lot of things I'm apprehensive about also. But anyway, so I, I, I wrote this ... That was one of the reasons I wrote the book. But in those two sections, if you want to be-... Billy Walters and you want to be a handicapper, and I don't care what sport it is. Uh, I use the NFL as a model, but this model is the same model that, th- th- for every sport, whether it be, you're betting on golf or you're betting on NASCAR or you're betting on soccer or baseball, it's the same principle. That's the way they all work. So I put that in there and then for people who are betting any type of sport, but especially the NFL, uh, or college football, I put, I, I, but the NFL, I put all those charts in there to explain to people 'cause right now, I don't care what site you go up on, Joe. A lot of these new places, uh, the reason they're making the money they're making is, if, if you were to poll sports bettors out there today, everyone thinks making a bet on a, on, on a sporting event, you're laying 11 to 10. That's the premise that we've all been taught, that you're laying 11 to win 10. A lot of these bets today, and matter of fact, almost all... Well, not a lot of them, all of them. Uh, these, we'll call them, uh, you know, the teasers, the parlays, uh, those bets, some of those bets, uh, a guy's laying $1.50 and he doesn't even know it because there's no requirement to disclose the odds you're laying, so they're not gonna tell you. But like these endgame parlays and you're doing these three and 14 parlays and you're doing these teasers, a lot of these places are charging you $1.50 to a dollar. You got no chance of winning. You got zero chance of winning. I couldn't win. I wouldn't even think about playing them. But the average person who's playing them, they don't know that. Uh, so because right now there's, there's no requirement to disclose that to, to the customer. And, uh, we all want to bet a small amount of money, won a large amount of money, right, Joe?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BWBilly Walters
Okay. Well, you got a lot of people out there. They're, they're making these bets and they're laying a dollar forty, a dollar fifty and they don't know it. When you look at these publicly traded companies, you know, it's out there, right out there in the public, you know, when they report their earnings they're, you know, they're, they're doing very well, but they all refer to these parlays and teasers. That's where they're making the majority of their money. They're not making the ma- the ma- they're ma- they're not making the majority of their money on straight bets where people are laying 11 to 10. They're making it on these proposition bets.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, uh, what I'm getting from you is that to be a successful sports gambler requires an insane amount of dedication and research and understanding and that you, you've got to be on it (clears throat) all the time. And most people are just not that sophisticated when it comes to these things. If they're betting using an app or something like that, betting online, they're just d- doing it for fun. They think they can win. They got a feeling. They want to bet their team.
- BWBilly Walters
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
They want to make the game more exciting. And so those people are basically like very under ... th- th- they're very under-researched. They're very... They don't have like the full grasp of understanding of the complexities of sports gambling, 'cause it's a lot more complex than I ever thought. When I was going over your stuff I was like, "Oh, my goodness." Like this involves so much time, so much time and re- This is not a simple thing. It's like, "Oh, I follow sports. I think Kansas City's gonna win." It is not... It's complicated. Very, very complicated. And to win at a level that you won at over your care- and the num- the numbers. Like what is the biggest bet you ever placed?
- BWBilly Walters
I bet four and a half million dollars on New Orleans to, uh, to beat the Indianapolis Colts in the Super Bowl. Uh, that was the biggest bet I ever placed.
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you win?
- BWBilly Walters
I, I, I did. Uh, I won it. I got lucky and I won it.
- JRJoe Rogan
You got lucky on that one?
- BWBilly Walters
Well, I... Yeah, I mean, any time you win, I mean, I, I feel like I'm lucky. I mean, uh, uh, it... Joe, the world's made up of a lot of different kind of people, as we both know. And, uh, the, uh... But no, I feel like any time I won a bet I got lucky. I mean, because there's, you know... Uh, but no, I won a bet and, and, and the reason I had such a big bet is... What I do, Joe, is I'm- I make a line on a game myself. My prediction of what I feel like the differential should be.
- JRJoe Rogan
Independent of what the experts say.
- BWBilly Walters
Completely independent. I don't even look at their line when I make my line.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- BWBilly Walters
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's, that's high level shit. (laughs)
- BWBilly Walters
I... Well, that's all they... That's all... I'm doing the same thing they're doing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- BWBilly Walters
I mean, believe me, the, the principles that I'm following and making my line are the same principles that the handicapper is making them. But it's, it's... You know, it's kind of like baking a cake, you know? One guy might put a little bit more flour in than the other guy does and so that's how we end up with different, you know, lines, different numbers. So I make a line on each and every outcome of, of the sports, sports that I'm involved with.
- JRJoe Rogan
And you, uh, betting this on the individual players, their overall career, what age they are, how they've been playing this season, who the coach is, all the different factors, whether or not there's in, in-player disputes, in-between player like... There's a lot of things to take into consideration.
- BWBilly Walters
Uh, it's... A- again, I put it all in the book and, and you're right. There's a lot of different factors that go into that. Uh, some more important than others, but there's a lot of factors. And, uh, and what happens is, uh, the larger the differential between the number they make and my opinion, the larger bet I make. There has to be a minimum of a certain amount of, of separation or I won't make a bet. But the larger the differences between my opinion and their opin- opinion, the larger bet I make. So I'll just give you a rough example. Let's say the NFL and let's say the, let's say... I would have to have a minimum of, say, a point and a half differential from the line they make, from the line I, I make. A point and a half, two points. Well, that would... I would make... I would bet one unit, okay? That would be the smallest bet I would make. But for each half point you would... I- so if, if I made the line on a game six and they had it at eight, I would bet one unit. If they made it eight and a half, I would bet two units. If they made it nine, I would bet three units. If they made it nine and a half, I would bet four units. If they made it ten, I would bet five units. Well, the New Orleans game you asked me about, which I couldn't believe, it was a Super Bowl game.And this type of year, we never get this kind of differential. Uh, but I had like a seven-point differential between the line I made and the line they made.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BWBilly Walters
They made Indianapolis seven, and I thought the game should be pick 'em. And, uh, when I saw the line, I couldn't believe it. I went back, I said, "Well, maybe I made a mistake here." Went back, redid it, redid it. "No, pick 'em." So that's how I ended up with such a large bet.
- JRJoe Rogan
When you go through something like that, how much time are we talking? Like, if you're placing a $4 million bet on a Super Bowl game, how much time are you researching?
- BWBilly Walters
Well, by, by that time of the year, I mean, all of our research is done. I mean, it's, it's this last game here. Okay, the only changes you're gonna make from the last games that these two teams played on the Super Bowl is, okay, are there any players injured that didn't ... uh, you, you, uh, which you have to account for. And, uh, you know, clearly if they're playing on a different surface or, or something maybe than, you know, than the teams normally do. Uh, it's very small. I mean, the second the game's over, uh, we can have the line on the next game within six hours. That's not a problem. Or less. I mean, unless it involves, you know, some injury or something that, you know, may take us until we get some more clarity on that. But I'm, I'm gonna know real close to where I'm at, frankly, as, as soon as the game is over almost, within an hour or two.
- JRJoe Rogan
Now, there's been some times over the years where referees, uh, specifically in basketball games, have been caught doing things, you know, calling penalties-
- BWBilly Walters
Hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... trying to swing the game in favor of another team, and they get caught for it and busted.
- BWBilly Walters
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
How much do you think that goes on today? Like how, how much do you think like referees are bought off or maybe perhaps they're betting themselves?
- 45:00 – 1:00:00
What was that thing?…
- BWBilly Walters
aren't very smart and a number of them, I mean, aren't very smart to be doing what they're doing and the way they go about it or even, you know. But, you know, all of you remember the thing years ago with Hot Rod Williams. I mean, there's... The ones-
- JRJoe Rogan
What was that thing?
- BWBilly Walters
Well, it was an, it was an NBA thing also. But all the ones, if you go back and you look at the last five sports deals, whatever they were, small or big, every one of them were uncovered like that. And, uh, so you know, I, I did a, I did a pr- I did an interview one time on 60 Minutes in 2011 and I was asked at the end of the interview which I had the most confidence in, betting on sports, uh, or investing, uh, in stocks. And my answer was, "I have a lot more confidence in betting on sports," uh, for the reason I pointed out. Uh, it's, it's a much smaller market, but as far as, as far as things being on the up and up, I have a lot more confidence in that. Way more confidence in that than I do the other.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, obviously, you know it well.
- BWBilly Walters
Well, and I not only know it well, but also if I didn't know it well, I, I know how small the market is. I know how transparent the market is. And, and if someone goes i- if someone goes in to try to bet on sports and you're trying to fix a game, it's gonna be so obvious. It's so easy to detect and it's so easy to... And today it's even easier. The good thing about legalized sports betting is it's so transparent. Everybody who has an account... You know, you take all of these young players that haven't, you know, they haven't been, uh, uh, I'll call it schooled correctly. They haven't been... They haven't, you know, whether it be their teams or whomever, they haven't explained to them, you know, the repercussions about betting on sports if they're a professional athlete. We, we've had some here recently that, you know, basically these guys are kids, Joe. They're kids. They don't know any better. And, and someone should, should have sat down with them and explained to them the ramifications of what they were doing. Uh, maybe they did, maybe they didn't. But the one... We've had a few of them out there now. But, you know, you've seen how quick they catch them because it's all transparent. They go in, they make these bets. It doesn't take them any time at all to figure out who they are, if they're a football player or whatever they're doing. And it's been brought to the public's attention. So, you know, if, if it's that easy to catch them, somebody out there making large bets on something, moving the line substantially, uh, and you don't know who this person is and you're looking at... And they do this more than one time or two times and you're seeing an outcome of a game that doesn't make sense, it isn't gonna take long to figure this out.
- JRJoe Rogan
Now, when you get to a situation like a guy like Pete Rose.
- BWBilly Walters
Uh-huh.
- JRJoe Rogan
That was a, that was a, a fascinating situation because this is at the time where gambling was illegal.
- BWBilly Walters
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Unless you're in Vegas. It was... It's diff- And you find out he might be betting on the team that he, he's coaching and he also might also be betting against his team.
- BWBilly Walters
I never... I, I've never heard anyone ever say that Pete Rose bet against his team. Uh, I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I've never heard that allegation.
- JRJoe Rogan
I know he was accused of it.
- BWBilly Walters
Well-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right? Is that okay? That, that- I don't think so. You don't think so? I don't think so.
- BWBilly Walters
No, I don't think so.
- JRJoe Rogan
I thought someone was saying-
- BWBilly Walters
Yeah. J- John Dowd, I think, actually investigated this for the, uh, uh, uh, for, for, for baseball.
- JRJoe Rogan
So he was always betting for his team?
- BWBilly Walters
I think he did bet on his team, but I don't think he ever bet against his team.
- JRJoe Rogan
So-
- BWBilly Walters
That's what... I never heard that. Uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
What was the problem with him betting against his team or betting for his team rather? That seems like that just would be a guy who has confidence in his team.
- BWBilly Walters
Well-Uh, p- personally, I don't see a problem with it. But the people who, uh, are running baseball, uh, or whatever the sport is, uh, haven't thought it really o- out probably i- if I were on their side of it and, uh, really thought through all of the, the different pluses and minuses, I may have a different opinion. Right off the shoulder, I really don't see a problem him betting on his team, uh, or anyone betting on their team, uh, although others do. And, uh, so, uh... and I'm trying to think of a good reason as to why it would be a problem him betting on his team. I really haven't thought about that closely.
- JRJoe Rogan
But was he ever accused?
- NANarrator
I don't think... I mean, I'm looking at the-
- BWBilly Walters
No.
- NANarrator
... like the ESPN Outpl- Outside the Lines story.
- BWBilly Walters
No.
- NANarrator
They did obtain documents. There's no evidence-
- BWBilly Walters
No.
- 1:00:00 – 1:15:00
Right. …
- JRJoe Rogan
It's a complicated ca- thing to gamble on, because I think there's a ... You have to have an understanding of a person's physical ability independent of watching them in fights. You have to be able to assess ... Like, I can look at a fighter, like a guy like Ilia Topuria, who just won the world title against Volkanovski, when I would watch him fight and train, even though he was against lesser competition than Volkanovski, I was seeing the speed of his strikes, the accuracy, the good-, the, the defense, how good the defense was, his durability. I was seeing this advantage. I was like, "Man, even though this guy is an, he's an underdog, he's fighting the most dominant featherweight of all time-"... I mean, this guy's got some big advantages. He's just got a big advantages that are w- I see as a fighter-
- BWBilly Walters
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... as a person who knows how to fight, and I'm watching the way he moves, I'm like, "He moves better."
- BWBilly Walters
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
He, he's more precise. He's more accurate. It's complicated. And then you have to take into account, you know, how many times the guy's been fighting that year, how banged up he is-
- BWBilly Walters
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... 'cause just like quarterbacks on football days, you're gonna fight injured. Everybody fights injured.
- BWBilly Walters
Oh, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
There's always something.
- BWBilly Walters
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
There's always a neck thing or a back thing-
- BWBilly Walters
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... or a hand thing. No fighter fights 100%. Very, v- very, very rarely, I should say.
- BWBilly Walters
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
But the s- the... again, the thing that drives me the most crazy is the decisions because if I was a gambler and I laid a b- a big bet on Ilia Topuria and for some reason it went five rounds and they give it to Volkanovski and it's a terrible decision, there is not a more robbed feeling in the world.
- BWBilly Walters
Oh, no.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's a, that's a dirty feel- 'cause it's so subjective as opposed to scoring. If you're watching a basketball game, if the, the Lakers score more, they win.
- BWBilly Walters
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's real simple.
- BWBilly Walters
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
The ball goes in the net more, you win.
- BWBilly Walters
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
With fighting, you got three people. Some of 'em don't know how to fight at all and they're the ones who are deciding who wins and who doesn't win fights.
- BWBilly Walters
Well, there were a lot... I mean, back in the '80s, like, we had a lot of those controversial decisions in boxing-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, yeah.
- BWBilly Walters
... and that was, that was another reason that, uh, uh, I got out of boxing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, there's some bad ones even in the 2000s, Manny Pacquiao and Tim Bradley. That was one where it was like, "What the fuck?" And I think that lady that I was talking about was involved in that one as well.
- BWBilly Walters
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
There's been quite a few of 'em. And when someone is an incredibly popular fighter, like a Canelo Alvarez or someone like that, where y- there's so much money invested in this fighter and there's so much money potentially in future match-ups, that if they lose, boy, that could switch the amount of money you make by, uh, an extraordinary amount. But if they get away with a robbery, just a little bit of a robbery, over six months, a year, two years, people forget.
- BWBilly Walters
Mm-hmm.
- 1:15:00 – 1:17:46
Absolutely it wasn't illegal.…
- BWBilly Walters
Absolutely it wasn't illegal.
- JRJoe Rogan
No?
- BWBilly Walters
No, not illegal at all. I was charged with being part of a com- criminal conspiracy, conspiring to bet on sports, betting people in other states. It was ridiculous. I went to court, my wife and I, we were exonerated, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
So was it because it was legal in Vegas but not legal in other states?
- BWBilly Walters
They tried to make it that way but when we went to court and the facts came out, uh, we were exonerated on all the charges. There was one charge, the vote was 11 to one to acquit us and come to find out the one guy who voted against us had-hadn't told the truth in his- in his, uh, interview to be on the jury. He was a former police officer and, uh, so anyway, they chose not to indict us. They dropped the case, it was over with. But we were exonerated of all the charges except the one charge and we, they were voted 11 to one to acquit us on that. And then, uh, and then I was indicted three times after that for the same thing, betting on sports. It was thrown out of court every time. And then, uh, so anyway, but what happens, and what I realized through all this, Joe, is, uh, the- the higher profile you have, the bigger target you become, especially if you're someone who's beat 'em a- a number of times over a period of years, there- there becomes a vendetta. You're the guy that everybody wants to bring down. And then I'm involved in New York originally with a guy with Carl Icahn one of the l- you know, one of the most successful in- investors in the history of the world and, uh, and that investigation went nowhere 'cause there was nothing there. And then this issue came up with Dean Foods and, uh, and bottom line was there was a lot of motivation to- to get me, to indict me, and that's exactly what happened. The four people that were, five people were involved in my case. Uh, three prosecutors, a supervisor, and the former US attorney. Four of 'em, as soon as my case was over within a matter of months, held press conferences and their claim to fame was they had sent me to prison. Three of 'em have gone into private practice today. Their sole business is they represent people with white-collar crimes in the Southern District of New York. They bring 'em back over and they, with the people that they worked with for years and they cut deals. The fourth one, uh, ran for the US Congress in New York. He's now a United States congressman. Uh, and the, and the guy who was a former US attorney, he is now working for a law firm representing people with white-collar crimes. So they go, they went from what they were doing to these very high paying jobs making a lot of money. The other fella's now in politics. He's a, he's a congressman from New York. So there's a lot of motivation, uh, for people on that side to send high profile people to prison and that's kind of how they get to the next rung of the ladder, so to speak.
Episode duration: 2:26:32
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