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The Joe Rogan ExperienceThe Joe Rogan Experience

Joe Rogan Experience #2107 - Billy Walters

Billy Walters is one of the most successful American sports bettors of all time, as well as an entrepreneur, philanthropist, and author. His new book is "Gambler: Secrets From a Life at Risk." www.realbillywalters.com

Billy WaltersguestJoe Roganhost
Jun 27, 20242h 26mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:08

    From Las Vegas notoriety to political entanglements

    1. BW

      (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

    2. JR

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) What's happening, Billy? Good to see you.

    3. BW

      It's good- good seeing you, Joe. It's good being here. Thank you.

    4. JR

      Uh, so you know George Knapp?

    5. BW

      I do.

    6. JR

      That's crazy.

    7. BW

      I do know George, yeah.

    8. JR

      Did you get involved in the whole UFO thing with him?

    9. BW

      Not really.

    10. JR

      No?

    11. BW

      Uh, uh, I knew George, uh, got introduced to him, you know, his, uh, the way he pays the bills, he's, uh, he's in, uh, he, he covers the news in Las Vegas and does a lot of feature stories and, uh, that's how I met George and, uh, we've become good friends over the years. I have a tremendous amount of respect for George and the work he does.

    12. JR

      He's a great man.

    13. BW

      Yeah.

    14. JR

      A real good guy too.

    15. BW

      Mm-hmm.

    16. JR

      Did he cover your story?

    17. BW

      Uh, George has covered a lot of stories involving me, uh, over the years.

    18. JR

      (laughs)

    19. BW

      I've been in Las Vegas, I moved there permanently in 1982 and since I've been there, uh, I've been involved in a lot of different things, indictments. I did, uh, I've done quite a bit of business there. Uh, the biggest business mistakes I probably made, uh, I did some businesses there with, uh, I did some public/private partnerships with, with local government and I didn't make any money. Matter of fact, lost quite a bit of money but, uh, uh, I got quite a bit of notoriety that I wasn't looking for. I, I got involved in a world that I didn't totally understand until I got into it. It, uh, I got into it for business and found myself wrapped up in a political world and, uh-

    20. JR

      Oof.

    21. BW

      Yeah, and that wasn't good.

    22. JR

      They think gambling's a dirty business.

    23. BW

      Yeah.

    24. JR

      The political world, that's the real dirty business, right?

    25. BW

      Yeah, I would agree with that. It's, uh, (sighs) I've, I've met a lot of, uh, people over the years, uh, in that world and, uh, have a lot of respect for some and of course, I'll, I'll withhold my thoughts and comments about others.

    26. JR

      (laughs) That's a game that you don't want to bet on, right? Because that, that is a rigged game.

    27. BW

      Yeah, that's a pretty tough game. That's, that when there's, uh, uh, that was pretty much over before you get involved I think in most cases.

    28. JR

      So I- I've been paying attention to your story and it's pretty wild, man. You, you essentially started gambling in a pool hall when you were about six years old.

  2. 2:08 – 4:21

    A childhood split between church and the pool hall (gambling at age six)

    1. BW

      That's right. Yep. That's a very young age to get the bug. (laughs) Yeah, well it's kind of interesting how I, how I got there. Uh, you know, my father passed away when I was a year and a half old and my mother left, uh, to find work. I was born and raised in a small rural town in central Kentucky, a little town called Munfordville. And, uh, um, I, I was lucky. I had two sisters who were older than me and, uh, and, uh, my grandmother on my father's side took my oldest sister, uh, my aunt on my father's side took my other sister and my mother, my, my grandmother, uh, on my mother's side took me to raise me. And luckily for me, I couldn't have had four parents. I couldn't have had a better role model than her. She, uh, worked two jobs. Uh, she was an extremely proud lady. She wouldn't have taken any assistance from anyone if her life depended on it. (clears throat) And so I learned a lot of things from her early on in life that have been, uh, extremely important to me and have kind of carried me through to where I'm at today. And, uh, she worked these two jobs, I mean, the first places, Joe, I ever went when I left my home were a Baptist church. You know, Sunday school on Sunday morning, uh, you know, church afterwards. Training union on Sunday night, prayer meeting on Wednesday night, and I went to a Christian youth organization on Sunday night called the Royal Ambassadors. But, uh, when I was around four, my grandmother, she had this two, these two jobs and, uh, she had to have someone to keep an eye on me. Well, my Uncle Harry had a pool room. So she started dropping me off at the pool room when I was four years old and my Uncle Harry (clears throat) , he went to the back pool table, he put up a couple old wood and Coca-Cola cases, handed me a pool stick and he went back to work and, uh, I actually started banging pool balls when I was four. And, uh, by the time I'm six, I'm racking balls in Uncle Harry's pool room and, uh, playing penny nine ball. So, uh, my life when I was six, um, in church five times a week and, uh, I'm at my Uncle Harry's pool room, uh, and, and I'm- and I just began the first grade. So that was my life.

    2. JR

      Wow.

    3. BW

      Yeah.

  3. 4:21 – 7:02

    Learning to win by losing: perseverance, passion, and addiction

    1. JR

      And then you went on from that to be arguably one of the most successful gamblers ever.

    2. BW

      (sighs) I did and I have. Uh, (coughs) excuse me. Uh, there's been a lot of (coughs) a lot of ups and downs. I've got a lot of knots on my head in between.

    3. JR

      I'm sure.

    4. BW

      (laughs) But, uh, you know, someone asked me how I became so good at gambling. I told them I became good at it by losing. And, uh, and, you know, I, I think my life, Joe, when you kind of look back on it, the thing that's sustained me has been perseverance. You know, I learned from my grandmother at a very early age, you know, you, uh, you don't quit. You know, if you make a commitment to anything, you keep it come, you know, come hell or high water. And, uh, they, uh... So, uh, when I look back on my life and I look back through where I began in gambling and, and, uh, w- you know, where I'm at with it today, I literally almost can't believe that, uh, sometimes I didn't quit. And, uh, and, and I've tried to figure out, okay, why didn't I quit? Well, the bottom line is I loved it, I had a passion for it. It was something that I really enjoyed doing. I don't think there's any question in my mind at one time I was addicted to it. And, uh, and then of course, I was determined to be successful at it. And, uh, fortunately, uh, I was and, and am.

    5. JR

      So talk me through, (clears throat) how does it start? So you're a little kid, you're playing penny nine ball and then how does it go on to big million dollar sports betting?

    6. BW

      Well, uh-I started off playing penny nine ball and, uh, by the time I was nine or 10, I'm playing, you know, f- five and $5 nine ball. And, and, uh, as I got older and, uh, I made more money, uh, the amount of money I was gambling for increased because I had more money to gamble with. And then, uh, uh, and as I became proficient at it, became good at it, uh, it's like anything that you want, that you're investing in. If you feel, if, if you're confident and basically certain that you're going to be successful, you want to, you know, uh, win as much as you can. And, and, and, as, you know, my bankroll got bigger, as the amount of money that I had to bet with became bigger, uh, or got bigger, uh, my bets became much larger. And so, there was a combination of confidence and access to capital and access to markets.

  4. 7:02 – 8:33

    From pool ‘shortstop’ to sports betting: building an edge

    1. JR

      So how good were you at pool?

    2. BW

      Uh, I could beat all the local guys and, uh-

    3. JR

      Like a solid shortstop?

    4. BW

      Yeah, like a solid shortstop. I couldn't beat a good player. Uh, I played Allen Hopkins once. He rob-

    5. JR

      Oh, no kidding?

    6. BW

      He robbed me and, uh... (laughs)

    7. JR

      (laughs)

    8. BW

      And I played Steve Mezarec once, and he robbed me too. I, I couldn't beat players of that caliber, but I could beat players that, you know, local guys. I was a solid shortstop. That's a, that's a very good description, Joe.

    9. JR

      I used to play a lot of pool.

    10. BW

      Yeah, yeah.

    11. JR

      Yeah. When I lived in New York, I was playing eight hours a day.

    12. BW

      Oh, okay.

    13. JR

      Yeah.

    14. BW

      Well, we, we probably know of a few guys.

    15. JR

      I'm sure. I know Allen Hopkins.

    16. BW

      Yeah.

    17. JR

      And I met Steve Mezarec once.

    18. BW

      Yeah, yeah.

    19. JR

      I played in a tournament with him in West End Billiards in, uh, New Jersey.

    20. BW

      Yeah.

    21. JR

      Elizabeth, New Jersey in like 1990.

    22. BW

      I used to go to Johnson City.

    23. JR

      Oh, wow.

    24. BW

      That was probably a little bit before your time.

    25. JR

      Oh, I've heard of Johnson City.

    26. BW

      Yeah.

    27. JR

      That must have been amazing.

    28. BW

      It was amazing. And, uh, and of course, you know, over the years, uh, Ronnie Allen, I'm sure you know Ronnie Allen.

    29. JR

      Sure, sure.

    30. BW

      And, uh, uh, there's, there's ... we probably know some of the same people. But, uh, I, I, I'm sure I was never as good a player as you. I quit playing pool real- when I was like 15, 16 years old.

  5. 8:33 – 12:06

    Staying ahead of smarter lines: R&D budgets, simulations, and timing bets

    1. BW

      ... I got asso- I got associated with a guy who had an algorithm. And, uh, I was handicapping sports and, uh, I was doing it with a pencil and piece of paper, as everyone else was at that time, except one guy. And I met this guy indirectly through others in the late '70s, and, uh, became more directly involved with him in 1982 when I moved to Las Vegas. And then by the mid '80s, he and I were sole partners. Uh, the other people involved, uh, initially were, were all gone except he and I. And then I realized, Joe, during that period of time that he was going to eventually lose his edge. And I recruited six other guys that had similar backgrounds to his, and, uh, they did, you know, they did their analysis independent of what he was doing. The only person they talked to was me, and they provided me with, with their information. I knew each ... I knew their strengths, I knew their weaknesses. And I would take a look at seven different pieces of information and then decide what I was going to do. And then over the years, like anything else, I got a little bit better at what I did. And, uh, uh, and luckily, you know, I've worked, Joe, over the years with probably a minimum of 50 handicappers. Uh, every one of them have basically gotten to the point to where they couldn't win. You know, w- in order to win handicapping, you have to come up with new ideas and you have to come up with new ideas that are relevant that, that means something, and, uh, because the people making the line are getting smarter, the competition is getting smarter, so whatever edge you start off with, that's going to erode. Other people are going to catch on, okay? Well, over the years, and when I was in my heyday, I was spending $6 to $8 million in research and development.

    2. JR

      Really?

    3. BW

      Oh, yeah.

    4. JR

      Every year?

    5. BW

      Every year, yeah. And now I probably spend at least a million now. And as an example, football season is over, we're already working on next season the day this season was over. We're doing simulations, we're running lots of different things to go back and see if we can find something that would have made a difference in a game or will make a difference in a game going forward as far as the prediction is concerned that's relevant, that we can quantify that makes sense. And if we can, then that... you know, our information, it will strengthen our information and allow us, allow me to continue to be able to bet on sports. I only bet on sports, Joe, today, uh, I love it. If I didn't, I didn't have the passion for it, I couldn't do it, but I still win and, and have, have an advantage. And if I get to the point that I don't have that advantage, I'll quit, okay? But I still have the advantage, but in order to maintain that advantage, I, I continually have to be able to recognize, find things that make a material difference or, or make... you know, that, that quantified difference, uh, with the outcome of a game to stay ahead of the herd, so to speak. Because you got really smart people making the line, you got other really smart people betting, okay? I'm the guy, I don't bet on Monday or Tuesday or Sunday night when the line's soft. I, I'm the guy, I bet on Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Why do I bet on Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday? Because that's when you can bet the most money. Early in the week, you can only make small bets. I'm not at a risk of making smaller bets today.

  6. 12:06 – 19:26

    How bookmakers think: limits, line vulnerability, and the ‘art’ of booking

    1. JR

      Why do they have it set up like that? Just in case something happens-

    2. BW

      Well-

    3. JR

      ... someone gets injured?

    4. BW

      Uh...No, uh, when the line originally comes out, uh, say on Sunday night or Monday morning, uh, and all sports are different. Some sports are more vulnerable than others. Uh, it- the NFL is the least vulnerable sport of all. It's the toughest of all to beat in the world. As a matter of fact, most of the guys that, that gamble for a living or call themselves professional handicappers, they don't bet the NFL 'cause it's, it's just too tough to beat. Okay, uh, if that line comes out on Sunday or Monday or whenever it comes out, that's your best chance of finding something there where that oddsmaker missed something. And okay, but by Tuesday, that's gone. Okay. Uh, now, uh, different sports, you know, college football, a non-Power Five conference team, uh, you know, uh, you may find more of advantage with that early on or even later on because in the colleges, you know, they're making the line on, you know, 130 games, and, uh, it's much more difficult for them to make the line on 130 games. Uh, you know, you've got personnel that changes every year. I mean, it's just more difficult for them to do that. And then on top of that, the, the Power Five teams, you know, uh, like Texas is an example. There's not much about Texas that e- that everybody doesn't know. But when you're looking at Louisiana Tech or you're looking at one of these other teams, say a non-Power Five team, okay, the guy who's actually doing the handicapping may have an advantage over the guy making the line because there may be things pertaining to that particular team that, uh, it's not in the USA Today, it's not on ESPN Sports. I mean, there could be a little advantages. But back to what you were talking about, why do they have the, uh, the limits cheaper is because the line is more vulnerable. I would say by, you know, Tuesday with the NFL, by Tuesday, Wednesday with the college football, Power Five or non-Power Five, all those numbers are solid. Years ago, Joe, the guys that I actually feel like were, uh, smarter bookmakers than the bookmakers today, uh, (clears throat) as soon as they felt like the line was solid, they would take a full-limit bet because if you're a bookmaker, stop and think about it. What you're trying to do, you're trying to ride as many bets on one side as you are on the other side. So as an example, once you feel like your number is solid, if you took a bet on, on a Wednesday or Thursday and that game doesn't start till Sunday, you can move your line. You've got four or five days to get action back on the other side. Some, some of the bookmakers today, and frankly, I don't understand their rationale at all 'cause it really doesn't make any sense, a lot of them wait until the day before the game or the day of the game before they'll take a full-limit bet, which makes no sense. Because what happens if they wait till the day of the game or the day before the game and they take a full-limit bet, they have a, they have a small amount of time to get action back the other way. I mean, if you're a bookmaker, what's book, uh, what is bookmaking? It's taking bets both ways and you're trying to earn the vigorish. Okay, you're not, you're, you're really not trying to gamble. You're, you know, there's gonna be times you're gonna be lopsided on one game, but what you're, you're, you know, you're... The, the ideal thing for a bookmaker is to have as many, have as many bets on one side as he does the other and the volume equal out, and you've earned the juice and basically you got no risk or very little risk. Okay, so but I can't answer your question as to why some people today wait until later on. I mean, I think in their minds they may think, "Well, maybe the line's more solid or something. That's the only way I could..." But at the end of the day, the line by Thursday is solid as a rock. And I think if I were a bookmaker, and I have been a bookmaker, as soon as I feel like the line is solid on whatever the sport is, I want to take a, as many bets as I can take as early as I can take them to, to move my line to draw action back on the other side. But you've got people out there today that, uh, some, not all, uh, the guys that I think are smart, uh, or smarter bookmakers, they start taking, you know, full-limit bets on Thursday because that gives them, they, that gives them Sunday night, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. Now they feel like the sol- the line is solid, and it is solid. But if they take a bet on a Thursday, they got Friday, they got Saturday, they got Sunday to try to get back, action back on the other side. So it's, uh... But you have different strategies from different guys. You got s- you got a lot of guys out there today, Joe, that are booking, they really don't know anything about booking. You know, they, they, they're great at creating databases, they're great at creating, you know, generating customer accounts and what have you, but they really don't understand the art of bookmaking. And, uh, you know, they've got these preconceived opinions that, uh, you know, that, and what most of them do, they'll go hire someone who, to be their bookmaker, and they'll look at that guy's, uh, you know, they'll, they'll look at his background or his bio, and he'll have, he would have worked at some place in Las Vegas at some hotel, and he'll have a title of XYZ or whatever it is. And they, you know, they don't really know anything about bookmaking. This guy looks like the real deal. He's been interviewed and you, you read the things that were written about him, and you would think he, you know, he knows what he's doing. So they hire the guy, they put him in that position. And a lot of those guys don't know anything about booking. They really don't. And what they do know is they know they don't, don't, don't, they know that they don't, don't know a lot about booking, okay? And so as a result, what they do instead of trying to promote and create action, they're, they're trying to... A, a lot of things that they do, in my opinion, uh, it, uh, uh, it keeps action down, so to speak. Hmm. Hmm. Now there's exceptions to the rule. You know, you've got a sports book in Cir- uh, in Las Vegas called Circa.They're open to anyone and everyone that comes in the door. I don't care who you are, uh, and they have room limits. They give everyone the same room limits, and they're generous limits. I mean, on NFL, you can bet $50,000 a game. On college football, you can bet up to $50,000 a game. Sometimes they take 20s, sometimes they take 30s, uh, but they're smart. They're, these guys know how to book. I mean, and they, they want to, uh... I, anyone can open an account. I have an account there myself. Uh, if they take a bet from me, they move the line, and, uh, they're gonna force somebody back on, on the other side of that bet. But they know how to book. There's guys there, Nick Bogdanovich, uh, has been in the business for a long, long time, and others. They know, they understand the art of bookmaking. Uh, uh, and you've got others in Las Vegas that, uh... and you've got others in other parts of the world that really understand bookmaking. I mean, you've got, uh, you know, you've got some guys, uh, uh, offshore that understand it extremely well.

    5. JR

      It seems like such a complicated and stress-filled life, and when you're, you're telling me things like you're, you're spending millions of dollars every year on research.

    6. BW

      (clears throat)

  7. 19:26 – 22:01

    Pre-internet intelligence: airport newspapers, radio feeds, and local sourcing

    1. JR

      Before the internet, what kind of research are you getting? Like how are you getting research on NFL teams or boxers or a- anything, whatever you're gambling on?

    2. BW

      Uh, well, prior to the internet, (clears throat) there, uh, uh... Some of the information today that you can, you know, you can get off your smartphone was, was, was golden. I mean, I used to have a crew of guys when I first moved to Las Vegas in '82. We would send them out to the airport, and, uh, we had relationships with the various airlines, and we would be able to get the newspapers that came, came off of all the planes that flew into Las Vegas. And then, and they were filled with local sports stories that were, you know, written by that local sports writer.

    3. JR

      Oh.

    4. BW

      And, and then we'd bring them back and, and we had readers who read those stories, and anything that they read in one of those stories that, that they felt like was material to that particular game, uh, it would be passed along to, to the handicapper. And, uh, and today, you know, you can read a thousand newspapers online and get that same information. Or you could... Uh, uh, we have a program that we've written now that, uh, you know, I could... We have like 140 beat writers in, in the NFL that we cover. Anything that that beat writer writes or anything that comes out on Twitter or social media, you know, uh, the program we have, it will scrape it and we, we have that immediately. We know... And so if there's a story there and there's anything in that story that we feel like that is going to have any real meaning toward the game, you know, we're able to take that. A lot of time, you know, the time involved with it is everything too, because eventually that story is gonna come out everywhere.

    5. JR

      Yeah.

    6. BW

      But back, back when you're talking about prior to the internet, (clears throat) we, uh... And, and, you know, uh, Joe, way, way back, it's kind of crazy, but I used to have a Zenith Transan- Oceanic radio and, uh, used to... I would sit and listen to pre-game shows and post-game shows. But the other thing I used to do is I would call a lot of, uh, the cities, and I, I, uh, had people in all these cities. And I would have someone to put the phone up to the r- up to the radio, and I would listen to the pre-game show.

    7. JR

      (laughs)

    8. BW

      And I would listen to the post-game show.

    9. JR

      Wow.

    10. BW

      And yeah, and you, and you were able to learn a lot from that. And, uh, today, you know, information is, it's, it's, it's a lot more accessible than it was then.

    11. JR

      So you would send people to the airport, they would find these local papers.

    12. BW

      Mm-hmm.

    13. JR

      And you would scour these papers and go through these articles.

    14. BW

      Yeah.

  8. 22:01 – 26:59

    NFL handicapping at the micro level: player values, injuries, and ‘removing luck’

    1. JR

      And what specifically are you looking for? Hard hits? Injuries? How someone's doing? Exceptional plays? Someone who's really coming up? What, what, what would you be looking for?

    2. BW

      Well, you're looking for injuries, and, and, and you're looking for game plans. And, uh, you know, as an example, if a coach says, "Look, you know, we're gonna... You know, we're gonna slow this thing down. We're gonna start running the ball," uh, you know, uh, first thing, uh, comes... Uh, total is not going to be as much if he starts, slows this thing down, he starts running the ball, you know, they're, they're not going to get as many plays and, and there's probably a pr- pretty high possibility that the total is, is going to come down some on this game. Uh, they talk about players, they talk about injuries, espe- you know, especially the quarterback. You know, if you're talking about the quarterback and you've got a quarterback who's playing injured, I mean, how that's going to affect his performance is, is really important.

    3. JR

      And they're always kind of playing injured, right?

    4. BW

      Always playing injured is, as y- you talked about in the book I wrote. You know there's 1,400 players in the NFL. There's about 600 of them that have a value. And we have a value assigned to each and every one of those individual players. But as you, as you're, as you've noted, a lot of them, almost every one of them are playing with some type of an injury once the season begins. Okay, then, okay, who's playing? Uh, again, we listen and we follow Dr. David Chow quite a bit. And, uh, we think he does an excellent job. Uh, he's on Sirius on the NFL Network, and he talks about the key players on a weekly basis, and, uh, and from an injuries perspective how, how he feels like that's going to, uh, affect their performance. There, there are many more players that Dr. Chow doesn't cover that we cover, uh, that are playing injured. And again, we do a lot of reading. We've got 140 beat writers we cover. Uh, I have a guy on my team, he's a qualitative guy. He's not a computer guy, right? He probably knows more about the NFL, as far as a qualitative guy is concerned, I believe than any man alive. Okay?

    5. JR

      What do you mean by that, a qualitative guy?

    6. BW

      Um, well, okay. The 1,400 players, he knows who they are. Okay? He knows, uh...He, he knows their positions. Uh, h- he knows what the value of those players are, as far as we're concerned. I- he knows how to adjust their value based upon their injury. And, and after we get the medical information, we'll figure out how we feel like their, their, uh, performance is going to be affected against that particular opponent that week. And then we ... If, if a, if a player's worth a point and a half, w- we may downgrade him, but he's only worth three-quarters of a point or he may be worth a point. If a guy's out, okay, well, we got a backup. We know the value of the guys out. What's a backup worth? Okay. Backup could be worth zero. He could be worth, you know, half a point, and he's replacing a guy that's a point-and-a-half guy, so we have to downgrade the power rating by a point that week. And the other thing w- this qualitative guy, he watches every NFL game. He grades every play. Okay. How many times have you watched a football game and you'll see the score wa- it wasn't indicative of, at all, of what the score should have been? So let's say, you know, a receiver's going down the field and, uh, and he didn't have anybody within 20 yards of him, and he, he gets thrown a perfect pass and he just drops it. Okay. Well, he was unlucky. He, he shouldn't have had that pass. On the other hand, let's say he's going down the field ... And, uh, we had a pass like that in the playoffs, uh, when San Francisco was playing Detroit. Uh, they threw a ball and it, it hit a helmet, rich- ricocheted, and ended up in a, in a, in a real long completion and a touchdown. Well, that was lucky. Okay. So when we look at the box score, we look at the yardage, we take that off.

    7. JR

      Hmm.

    8. BW

      Okay? You know, there's, there's plays that happen, uh, in the NFL when you look, when you look at box scores, as far as we're concerned, they're misleading. Okay. When you look at the total amount of yards, you know, everybody kind of looks at the same thing. You know, you look at the time possession, uh-

    9. JR

      So you have to go over each individual play and-

    10. BW

      Every play.

    11. JR

      ... deduct all the lucky shit.

    12. BW

      Yeah. And, and then, and then we have player participation. We know who played in every play. So-

    13. JR

      God, you got to keep up on all this.

    14. BW

      So, so to give you an example, Joe, uh-

    15. JR

      Whew.

    16. BW

      ... Pittsburgh. Uh, okay. Uh, T.J. Watts out, okay? He isn't playing well. If, if you look at Pittsburgh's performance with him in the lineup and him out of the lineup, it's unbelievable that one guy could, could, uh, have that much effect on, on a team. Uh, so if you're looking at, if you're looking at offensive performance against Pittsburgh with T.J. Watt out, you know, you're not looking, you know, you're not looking at what Pittsburgh's defense really

  9. 26:59 – 33:23

    Teaching the public: Billy’s betting strategy ‘masterclass’ and hidden vig in apps

    1. BW

      is. So you got to make an adjustment when you look at that, and you got to f- put that into your power rating. When I wrote the book, it took me six months t- to do this one section. We wrote what we call the master class, okay? And I wrote what we call betting strategy. I wrote that for the 99, 9/10ths percent of the people who bet sports, who ... And, and we got a lot of new sports bettors today that have no chance. I wrote that for them, okay? And I put the basics in there. I put basic, I put basic betting strategy in there, which ... That's probably as important to them or more important than handicapping is. I put, I put all the charts in there that tells them exactly what each half point is worth. I put charts in there that tells them exactly how a money line compares to a point spread. If you want it on the games two, here's a, here's a money line equivalent. If you can get a better deal, take it. If you can't, take the other. Okay? I put stuff in there, basic stuff, because none of that stuff is out there now. Guys don't have any idea if they're buying a half a point what the fair price is to pay. And all these po- all these points, they have a different value. As an example, if you're buying a game on or off of three, say from two and a half to three in, in the NFL, or three and a half to three, that's worth 22 additional cents. It's not worth 23, but it's worth 22.

    2. JR

      Hmm.

    3. BW

      If you can do it for 20, buy it. 21, buy it. If, if you it's a ... If you feel like it's gonna be a low scoring game, uh, and you can buy for 22, uh, or you might ... Uh, whatever. Buy it. But if it's 23, you're better off taking a two and a half. But people don't know that, Joe.

    4. JR

      Hmm.

    5. BW

      They ... Okay. What's the value of two? Well, the value of two is much less than it is three. The value of two is only worth six cents, where three's worth 23. The different numbers have different values. So I put those charts in there for the guy that I pointed out too. I also put another section in there. It's, uh ... It ... We'll call it kind of the, uh, advanced section. And that section, uh, I, I tried to write in such a manner to where I felt like, you know, people could understand it. And that's, that's the guy who or, or, or the, or the lady who wants to become a serious handicapper. And, and I, and I explained in there exactly 100%, Joe, exactly how I do everything. Okay? This book was written at the end of the NFL season, not this year, but last year. It came out in August. Everything that I know about sports betting and handicapping is in that book. I would not have sold that information 10 years ago for $20 million, and I never had any intention of ever writing this book and putting that in there. But I'm 77. It's my legacy. I see all these new people that are betting sports, and they're doing it in states now where it's legal. Uh, I'm proud of that. I'm, I'm glad that sports has, has come around to that. But also, I, I still have ... Uh, there's a lot of things I'm apprehensive about also. But anyway, so I, I, I wrote this ... That was one of the reasons I wrote the book. But in those two sections, if you want to be-... Billy Walters and you want to be a handicapper, and I don't care what sport it is. Uh, I use the NFL as a model, but this model is the same model that, th- th- for every sport, whether it be, you're betting on golf or you're betting on NASCAR or you're betting on soccer or baseball, it's the same principle. That's the way they all work. So I put that in there and then for people who are betting any type of sport, but especially the NFL, uh, or college football, I put, I, I, but the NFL, I put all those charts in there to explain to people 'cause right now, I don't care what site you go up on, Joe. A lot of these new places, uh, the reason they're making the money they're making is, if, if you were to poll sports bettors out there today, everyone thinks making a bet on a, on, on a sporting event, you're laying 11 to 10. That's the premise that we've all been taught, that you're laying 11 to win 10. A lot of these bets today, and matter of fact, almost all... Well, not a lot of them, all of them. Uh, these, we'll call them, uh, you know, the teasers, the parlays, uh, those bets, some of those bets, uh, a guy's laying $1.50 and he doesn't even know it because there's no requirement to disclose the odds you're laying, so they're not gonna tell you. But like these endgame parlays and you're doing these three and 14 parlays and you're doing these teasers, a lot of these places are charging you $1.50 to a dollar. You got no chance of winning. You got zero chance of winning. I couldn't win. I wouldn't even think about playing them. But the average person who's playing them, they don't know that. Uh, so because right now there's, there's no requirement to disclose that to, to the customer. And, uh, we all want to bet a small amount of money, won a large amount of money, right, Joe?

    6. JR

      Yeah.

    7. BW

      Okay. Well, you got a lot of people out there. They're, they're making these bets and they're laying a dollar forty, a dollar fifty and they don't know it. When you look at these publicly traded companies, you know, it's out there, right out there in the public, you know, when they report their earnings they're, you know, they're, they're doing very well, but they all refer to these parlays and teasers. That's where they're making the majority of their money. They're not making the ma- the ma- they're ma- they're not making the majority of their money on straight bets where people are laying 11 to 10. They're making it on these proposition bets.

    8. JR

      Well, uh, what I'm getting from you is that to be a successful sports gambler requires an insane amount of dedication and research and understanding and that you, you've got to be on it (clears throat) all the time. And most people are just not that sophisticated when it comes to these things. If they're betting using an app or something like that, betting online, they're just d- doing it for fun. They think they can win. They got a feeling. They want to bet their team.

    9. BW

      Mm-hmm.

    10. JR

      They want to make the game more exciting. And so those people are basically like very under ... th- th- they're very under-researched. They're very... They don't have like the full grasp of understanding of the complexities of sports gambling, 'cause it's a lot more complex than I ever thought. When I was going over your stuff I was like, "Oh, my goodness." Like this involves so much time, so much time and re- This is not a simple thing. It's like, "Oh, I follow sports. I think Kansas City's gonna win."

  10. 33:23 – 37:45

    Making your own line—and sizing up: the $4.5M Super Bowl bet

    1. JR

      It is not... It's complicated. Very, very complicated. And to win at a level that you won at over your care- and the num- the numbers. Like what is the biggest bet you ever placed?

    2. BW

      I bet four and a half million dollars on New Orleans to, uh, to beat the Indianapolis Colts in the Super Bowl. Uh, that was the biggest bet I ever placed.

    3. JR

      Did you win?

    4. BW

      I, I, I did. Uh, I won it. I got lucky and I won it.

    5. JR

      You got lucky on that one?

    6. BW

      Well, I... Yeah, I mean, any time you win, I mean, I, I feel like I'm lucky. I mean, uh, uh, it... Joe, the world's made up of a lot of different kind of people, as we both know. And, uh, the, uh... But no, I feel like any time I won a bet I got lucky. I mean, because there's, you know... Uh, but no, I won a bet and, and, and the reason I had such a big bet is... What I do, Joe, is I'm- I make a line on a game myself. My prediction of what I feel like the differential should be.

    7. JR

      Independent of what the experts say.

    8. BW

      Completely independent. I don't even look at their line when I make my line.

    9. JR

      Really?

    10. BW

      No.

    11. JR

      That's, that's high level shit. (laughs)

    12. BW

      I... Well, that's all they... That's all... I'm doing the same thing they're doing.

    13. JR

      Right.

    14. BW

      I mean, believe me, the, the principles that I'm following and making my line are the same principles that the handicapper is making them. But it's, it's... You know, it's kind of like baking a cake, you know? One guy might put a little bit more flour in than the other guy does and so that's how we end up with different, you know, lines, different numbers. So I make a line on each and every outcome of, of the sports, sports that I'm involved with.

    15. JR

      And you, uh, betting this on the individual players, their overall career, what age they are, how they've been playing this season, who the coach is, all the different factors, whether or not there's in, in-player disputes, in-between player like... There's a lot of things to take into consideration.

    16. BW

      Uh, it's... A- again, I put it all in the book and, and you're right. There's a lot of different factors that go into that. Uh, some more important than others, but there's a lot of factors. And, uh, and what happens is, uh, the larger the differential between the number they make and my opinion, the larger bet I make. There has to be a minimum of a certain amount of, of separation or I won't make a bet. But the larger the differences between my opinion and their opin- opinion, the larger bet I make. So I'll just give you a rough example. Let's say the NFL and let's say the, let's say... I would have to have a minimum of, say, a point and a half differential from the line they make, from the line I, I make. A point and a half, two points. Well, that would... I would make... I would bet one unit, okay? That would be the smallest bet I would make. But for each half point you would... I- so if, if I made the line on a game six and they had it at eight, I would bet one unit. If they made it eight and a half, I would bet two units. If they made it nine, I would bet three units. If they made it nine and a half, I would bet four units. If they made it ten, I would bet five units. Well, the New Orleans game you asked me about, which I couldn't believe, it was a Super Bowl game.And this type of year, we never get this kind of differential. Uh, but I had like a seven-point differential between the line I made and the line they made.

    17. JR

      Yeah.

    18. BW

      They made Indianapolis seven, and I thought the game should be pick 'em. And, uh, when I saw the line, I couldn't believe it. I went back, I said, "Well, maybe I made a mistake here." Went back, redid it, redid it. "No, pick 'em." So that's how I ended up with such a large bet.

    19. JR

      When you go through something like that, how much time are we talking? Like, if you're placing a $4 million bet on a Super Bowl game, how much time are you researching?

    20. BW

      Well, by, by that time of the year, I mean, all of our research is done. I mean, it's, it's this last game here. Okay, the only changes you're gonna make from the last games that these two teams played on the Super Bowl is, okay, are there any players injured that didn't ... uh, you, you, uh, which you have to account for. And, uh, you know, clearly if they're playing on a different surface or, or something maybe than, you know, than the teams normally do. Uh, it's very small. I mean, the second the game's over, uh, we can have the line on the next game within six hours. That's not a problem. Or less. I mean, unless it involves, you know, some injury or something that, you know, may take us until we get some more clarity on that. But I'm, I'm gonna know real close to where I'm at, frankly, as, as soon as the game is over almost, within an hour or two.

  11. 37:45 – 50:45

    Game integrity, fixing, and why gamblers detect scandals first

    1. JR

      Now, there's been some times over the years where referees, uh, specifically in basketball games, have been caught doing things, you know, calling penalties-

    2. BW

      Hmm.

    3. JR

      ... trying to swing the game in favor of another team, and they get caught for it and busted.

    4. BW

      Mm-hmm.

    5. JR

      How much do you think that goes on today? Like how, how much do you think like referees are bought off or maybe perhaps they're betting themselves?

    6. BW

      I don't think that exists at all, Joe.

    7. JR

      Really?

    8. BW

      And if it does, it's very, very small, and-

    9. JR

      But it has been, right?

    10. BW

      Uh, things have happened in the past, and, but, uh, but, uh, but, but you know who uncovered each and every one of those? Gamblers.

    11. JR

      Hmm.

    12. BW

      People betting sports and, and bookmakers. They're the ones that made law enforcement aware of these things. Uh, because at the end of the day, whether you're a casino or whether you're a bettor, the integrity of sports is the most important thing in the world to you. A good thing about what's going on today, there's probably, uh, more transparency in betting today than there ever has been. All, all of the legalized gambling that's taking place, they have everyone's account information. They know everything you're doing. And the other thing about betting on sports, Joe, unlike say Wall Street, it is a small market, much, much smaller market than Wall Street. So if you go out and you make a sizable bet in sports, uh, the line's gonna move, and, uh, it's, it's impossible to hide it. Okay? Now, there's people such as myself, and I'm not the only one. There's a lot of people in the sports business. If they see a line on a game move a half a point, a point, or whatever, they know who caused that line to move 99% of the time. Okay? I'll give you an example. The Arizona State situation that came up years ago. I don't know if you remember that one or not. It was their basketball team, and they were fixing games. And then what happened, um, there was a bunch of guys that came to Las Vegas and, uh, they bet on one of these games. The line moved six or seven points. I bet on the other side of it because, you know, uh, of the line I make. And of course, I had no idea that they, you know, they were shaving points. And I lost the bet. Well, they came back to town, uh, a little bit later, and they brought six, seven guys. And, and they were going to all the different sportsbooks and they were betting and the line moved six or seven points again. Game ... lines on games don't move six or seven points. Well, the second time I didn't bet, uh, because... And sure enough, they won the game by like 20 again. They came back the third time, and ... But now I'm taping the games. I'm looking at the games. They came back the third time and they did the same thing. Well, uh, I called, uh, uh, Steve Ducharme, who was the head of Gaming Control, uh, for the Gaming Control Board. He was the, uh, the law enforcement part of Gaming Control, and told him what was going on. And, uh, they dispatched some agents. They tried to get these people to talk to them. They left Las Vegas, went back to Arizona, and then later on, I think one of them got kind of caught up in a drug deal, and, uh, then it came out they were fixing games.

    13. JR

      Hmm.

    14. BW

      And there were a couple players that were intentionally thrown off, and, uh, they were fixing games, and then that, that's how that scandal came out. You know, I, I guess-

    15. JR

      So it was exposed by gamblers?

    16. BW

      Oh, by gamblers. And, and then the-

    17. JR

      But how did you know that something w- ... How did you know it wasn't just luck?

    18. BW

      Well, I, I mean, Joe, look, this would be like tracking an elephant in the snow. I mean, you got, you got guys who no one's ever laid eyes on, and they come to, to Las Vegas and they bet, they bet on a game and they move it six or seven points. You know, if you're a handicapper, y- or you don't know anything at all about betting sports, if a line moves, you know, uh, it, it's ... And you're laying a second or third point, uh, uh, uh, or what ... You know, you, you better, you better have a really strong opinion because they move this line for one reason. Uh, it, it's, it's to, it's to make it a lot less appealing to the person betting on, on that team. So when somebody comes to town and they move a line six or seven points, no bettor in the world is gonna do that. And in order to do that, they, they went to every sportsbook in town and they just, you know, they laid, you know, six, six and a half, seven, seven and a half, eight, eight and a half, nine, nine and a half, 10. Okay. Well, uh, because they were new to betting, okay? They knew they had a, uh, they had an edge because of what they were doing, but they didn't know anything about betting. As a result, you know, they created something that was easy for anyone to see. I saw it again the first time. I didn't know, you know, the exact, uh, uh-You know, I didn't know exactly who was doing it. And I, I, I bet on the other side. Of course, I lost my money. And of course, I came back the second time, I'd seen these things before and, uh, I didn't bet. And then of course, you know, we taped the game. We looked at it and it was pretty easy to see who was doing what they were doing. They came back the third time, did the same thing. Frankly, you know, to give it a... I mean, these guys were trying to break in jails what they were trying to do. Anybody-

    19. JR

      (laughs)

    20. BW

      I mean, they were. Anybody would do what they were doing was just stupid. I mean, anyone could see what they were doing.

    21. JR

      So they just-

    22. BW

      The only thing that surprised me, it, it took three games for someone to finally turn them in. And I don't... Sports books, I don't think they ever turned them in. I mean, I called the SHRM myself because again, anything that involves integrity of sports, they're affecting my business. If people get to where they don't trust betting on sports, then the limits are gonna go down. And it's gonna reduce my ability to be able to bet on sports. Uh, there are... The other, the other one, you know, with the referee, the N- the NFL referee, gamblers knew about that eight months before he got busted by law enforcement. People quit betting on the games.

    23. JR

      Really?

    24. BW

      Well, sure. I mean, it wasn't like-

    25. JR

      They just suspected that the calls-

    26. BW

      No, they-

    27. JR

      ... were bad.

    28. BW

      Well, no, what ha- Anytime, again, Joe, because the market's so small... Okay, think about the, the New York Stock Exchange or, or think about Apple stock. You could buy $500 million worth of Apple stock and, and the price on Apple stock would, would barely move. Okay? On, on a NF- NFL... Uh, well, on an NBA basketball game, if you were to bet $250,000 on an NFL basketball game, it would probably move a point and a half, two points. So, and again, the people taking the bet, people such as myself and others, if a line moves on a game and it moves like that and, okay, I won't do better on that game. If it's another handicapper or there's an injury out or there's something there that makes sense as to why that game moved, then okay, I understand it. But if there's some mysterious person that's betting a lot of money on a game that hasn't been doing this for a period of time, and then I'm looking at an outcome of a game that doesn't make sense, uh, if I tape it and, and, and I see, you know, something that's out of the ordinary about the way the game is being officiated or some player's performance, it... This is, this stuff is easy, Joe, to see.

    29. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    30. BW

      And you're not dealing with exactly... You're not dealing here with master criminals. You're dealing with people that frankly aren't very smart and a number of them, I mean, aren't very smart to be doing what they're doing and the way they go about it or even, you know. But, you know, all of you remember the thing years ago with Hot Rod Williams. I mean, there's... The ones-

  12. 50:45 – 1:06:11

    Combat sports betting and boxing politics: injuries, judges, and managing fighters

    1. JR

      Are you aware of the, the UFC betting scandal?

    2. BW

      No sir, I'm not.

    3. JR

      So the UFC, there didn't used to be rules in terms of... well, like, I could bet if I wanted to, anybody could bet on fights. Um, and what was going on was there was one trainer, and the allegations were that this trainer was involved in an online sped- betting group, and he was letting these people in this online betting group know that one of the people that he was involved with was injured.

    4. BW

      Mm-hmm.

    5. JR

      And a pretty significant injury. This guy winds up going out and fighting, loses in the first round, hurts his knee.

    6. BW

      Mm-hmm. Yep.

    7. JR

      Like, throws a kick, blows his knee out.

    8. BW

      Mm-hmm.

    9. JR

      Apparently his knee was already hurt.

    10. BW

      Mm-hmm.

    11. JR

      Um, then they find out that this guy had been doing this for quite a while.

    12. BW

      Mm-hmm.

    13. JR

      Or allegedly had been doing this for quite a while.

    14. BW

      Yep.

    15. JR

      And so then they pass this law now, or pass a rule with the UFC, that no one can gamble.

    16. BW

      Hmm.

    17. JR

      But I would imagine that fighting is probably the most difficult thing to get right, in terms of to figure out a line. Is that... did you do any gambling on boxing or MMA fights?

    18. BW

      I haven't done any, any gambling on MMA fights. Uh, I had fighters in the past. I had three boxers in, uh, in Las Vegas. And, uh, we trained at Johnny Taco's gym.

    19. JR

      Okay.

    20. BW

      Yeah.

    21. JR

      Great gym.

    22. BW

      And, uh, one of my best friends in the world, uh, Billy Baxter, he, uh, he had fighters at the same time. Uh, he had better fighters than I did, record-wise. He had Roger Mayweather, who, uh, became-

    23. JR

      Black Mamba.

    24. BW

      Yeah, that's exactly right. And Jesse Reid was our trainer. And, uh, making prices on boxing up I didn't think was difficult at all. Uh, MMA, uh... you know, back to kind of what you're talking about there, again, uh, well, the NFL, you know, you're talking about transparency. I mean, uh, if a player's injured, they have to report that. The l- the team does, the league does so the public knows that. Uh, and, you know, they have regular reporting requirements. And then, like before the NFL games every Sunday, an hour and a half before the games, they have to come out with a final report. So, uh, you know, uh, for whatever reason, uh, in boxing, I know when I had fighters that there wasn't a requirement to disclose that.

    25. JR

      Now famously, Manny Pacquiao was injured going into the Floyd Mayweather fight.

    26. BW

      Yes. That's what I heard.

    27. JR

      And a lot of people were furious about that, because-

    28. BW

      Mm-hmm.

    29. JR

      ... a lot of money exchanged hands during that fight.

    30. BW

      Yeah. Yes, it did. Yes, it did. So, uh, the, uh, again, uh, not knowing as much as I, I would like to know before I, I make a comment on something, my only thinking is that, uh, you, you know a lot more about MMA fighting than, than I'll ever know, you and my friend Kevin O'Holly, uh, the, uh... would it make any sense to make that a requirement, to disclose injuries?

  13. 1:06:11 – 1:11:24

    A wild boxing night—and a prison letter decades later

    1. BW

      Couple hundred grand, probably. Uh, but the one that absolutely meant the most to me is, uh, uh, uh, Terry Silver, this kid I told you, uh, got to fight at, uh, at, uh... we were at the Hacienda, which is now Mandalay Bay. And it was, it was a, uh, six-round fight. It was his first six-rounder. And he's fighting some kid out of LA. You know Jimmy Montoya?

    2. JR

      No.

    3. BW

      Well, Jimmy Montoya has been, uh, training fighters in LA for a zillion years. And he... In his stable, back in those days, he had like a hundred and-... 20 fighters. Okay. And he would bring guys over, whether it be the Silver Slipper or the Showboat or the Hacienda. And, uh, a lot, a lot of his fighters were on the card. And he brought over this Hispanic kid. And, uh, this, this kid's fighting Terry. And, uh, you looked at the guy's record and, uh, you know, he, uh ... I think he was like maybe 1-3, lost two and he had a draw. And, uh, I'm thinking, "Well, this guy's got like zero chance." So this is back when I'm drinking some too. So we, we go to the fight, my wife Susan and I. And Billy's working a spit bucket.

    4. JR

      (laughs)

    5. BW

      And, uh, fight starts and I'm betting everybody I can bet in the crowd. I'm laying 5:1, 10:1, 20:1. I, I think I'm, I'm just stealing, you know. I mean, I, I think Terry's probably gonna knock him out in the first round. Well, Terry had gotten him a girlfriend in the meantime.

    6. JR

      Oh, no.

    7. BW

      And, uh, so he goes out there. And, uh, first round he probably hit this guy 80 times. The guy never laid a glove on him. He ... This kid, Terry Silver had a really, really good left jab, as good as any you've ever seen in your life. But he didn't have a lot of power. In the, in the, in the amateur ranks, like I said, he won like five national Golden Gloves. But when he turned pro, he did, he really didn't have a real, real good punch. So he came out in the second round. And he drops these gloves and he's showing off. And this kid hit him. And when he hit him, his mouthpiece went out. (laughs)

    8. JR

      (laughs)

    9. BW

      And then he's got the wailing on his head. And I'm thinking, I'm sitting, I'm watching this. I can't believe it. And he, you know, he kind of knocked him silly, so to speak. Well, Terry's, you know ... But he's, he'd had enough fights. He probably had as an amateur probably 50, 60 fights. So he got out of the round. So they come out in the third round. And he still ain't shaking it completely off. And the guy goes a-wailing on him again. And now, you know, he's bleeding and, uh, he's got a gash over one eye. Blood's coming out, a little blood's coming out of his mouth. So the fourth round come, comes out. He's still just wearing him out. What? My wife Susan said, "Look, you gotta stop this fight." So I run down to Billy. I said, "Billy," I said, uh, "Stop the fight." And I said, "By the way, I need to borrow $50,000."

    10. JR

      (laughs)

    11. BW

      He looked up (laughs) . He looked up at me and he said, uh, "Let's let him go a little longer." (laughs)

    12. JR

      (laughs)

    13. BW

      So Terry gets ... He gets, he gets out of the round. He comes out in the fifth round and the fight completely turns around. And he starts wailing on him. He starts, he got ... You know, he's, he starts wearing this other guy's head out. And he wins the fifth round. I mean, it's not even close. So they come out for the sixth round. And this was only a six-round fight, Joe, but it's one of the best fights I've ever seen in my life. And, uh, I mean, they stood toe-to-toe in the sixth round and they fought and bell rings. Well, I got a draw.

    14. JR

      Oh.

    15. BW

      And it, but it was one of the best fights I've ever seen. It was a six-round fight and I got a draw.

    16. JR

      Wow.

    17. BW

      And the reason I got a draw is, I had a kid was a real classy fighter. And I gotta tell you the, I gotta tell you the ending of this story. I'm in prison. I'm in Pensacola and I get letters. And I got a letter. And I hadn't seen Terry Silver since then. When I, when I gave up the fighters, I gave Terry to somebody, I gave Tyrone Moore to Billy, and I gave Dana Rossen to Billy. I'm in prison, fast-forward, 2018, '19. I wish I'd have brought the letter. I'll send you a copy of the letter. And the letter's from Terry Silver. And he said, Billy ... He said, uh, uh, you know, "I remember." He was talking about the fight. And he said, uh, you know, he ... And he said, you know, "I remember you tried to stop the fight." He said, uh, he said, "I could not lose that fight for you and Miss Susan." And he went on to talk about, you know, that, and talked about our relationship. And anyway, he sent me this letter. And I mean, I don't know, 40 years later I get this letter in prison from this kid. And it's all about that night, that fight at the Hacienda and, and how he wasn't gonna lose that fight and he, and he wasn't gonna allow him to lose this f- uh, uh, that fight because of, of, of Susan and me. And it was, it was touching.

    18. JR

      Wow.

    19. BW

      Yeah, yeah.

    20. JR

      Dodge that bullet, huh?

    21. BW

      Yeah, died in the night.

    22. JR

      And he needed to borrow 50 grand (laughs) .

    23. BW

      Well, yeah, yeah. Well-

    24. JR

      (laughs)

    25. BW

      ... (laughs) Billy would have stopped the fight, but the problem was, I said, "I need to borrow $50,000." He said, he, he hesitated. He said, "Let's let him go a little longer." (laughs)

    26. JR

      Ah. That's hilarious. That's hilarious.

    27. BW

      So-

    28. JR

      Wow.

    29. BW

      Mm-hmm.

  14. 1:11:24 – 2:02:05

    Insider trading prosecution: the Dean Foods case and why he says it was a setup

    1. JR

      What did you wind up going to jail for?

    2. BW

      Uh, I went to jail for insider trading. The, uh, uh ... See, Joe, uh, publicly people know I bet on sports and they know I'm, you know, pretty good at that. And, uh, the, uh ... But I do a lot of other things, Joe. Uh, since the late '80s, you know, uh, I've owned golf courses. Uh, I had seven golf courses in Las Vegas, which, you know, I built from scratch four of them, and the other three ... But I've owned and operated golf courses since the late '80s. I've had golf courses in Chicago, New Mexico, Arizona. Uh, and but I had seven in Las Vegas. Uh, you know, when I got out of school, uh, one in the automobile business. I got ... I was in it 16 years, I got out. But I'm in the a- in the automobile business too. So I had 22 car dealerships at one time. So had the golf courses, uh, car dealerships, uh, bet on sports, but I also invest, I invest in stocks. I invest my own money, not someone else's money. And, you know, actually I probably have a bigger presence with that than I do betting sports because it's a bigger market. You, you can, you can bet more. Well, I'd bought a stock, I'd owned it for 10 years. And, uh, the, uh ... I'd gotten involved, uh ... There was an SEC investigation. Uh, the initial investigation was into myself and Carl Icahn.And it involved a stock trade that I did with that, that he'd owned stock in. And that investigation went three and a half years. It went nowhere 'cause there was nothing there. There was no wrongdoing at all. And then, uh, and then there was a stock that I'd owned for 10 years, a stock called Dean Foods. And Dean- and they'd been involved in a material transaction. They'd spun off a part of their company and I owned a large amount of the stock. And, uh, the SEC, uh, was looking at anyone who bought and sold stock around a certain period of time and I was one of those people. And, uh, it was at the end of the other investigation and, uh, because of my notoriety, who I was, I'd been indicted six times before and I'd gone to court and beat- beat 'em five times. Uh, that started in, uh, 1983.

    3. JR

      So you were already a marked man?

    4. BW

      Well, yeah, a marked man to say the least.

    5. JR

      What had you been indicted for?

    6. BW

      I'd been indicted for betting on sports. Joe, Joe, stop and try to get your head around this one. In 1990, in Las Vegas, Nevada, the gaming capital of the world, the FBI took myself and my wife out of our home and handcuffed my wife, they had leg irons on her, and we were arrested and we were charged with being a cr- part of a criminal conspiracy, conspiring to bet on sports. Bet on sports. Now here we are 2024, betting on sports is legal in the majority of the United States. In 2023, in Las Vegas at the Circle Hotel, I was inducted into the Sports Gamblers Hall of Fame for betting on sports. So how- but in 1990, in Las Vegas, Nevada, I was indicted along with my wife and charged with betting on sports. So yeah, I'd gone to court a number of times. I'd beat 'em a number of times. Every one of the indictments were centered around my sports betting. Uh, that's what they were centered around, nothing more nothing less. But I, you know, I was a sports bettor.

    7. JR

      So was sports betting illegal?

    8. BW

      No.

    9. JR

      What were the laws?

    10. BW

      Absolutely it wasn't illegal.

    11. JR

      No?

    12. BW

      No, not illegal at all. I was charged with being part of a com- criminal conspiracy, conspiring to bet on sports, betting people in other states. It was ridiculous. I went to court, my wife and I, we were exonerated, uh-

    13. JR

      So was it because it was legal in Vegas but not legal in other states?

    14. BW

      They tried to make it that way but when we went to court and the facts came out, uh, we were exonerated on all the charges. There was one charge, the vote was 11 to one to acquit us and come to find out the one guy who voted against us had-hadn't told the truth in his- in his, uh, interview to be on the jury. He was a former police officer and, uh, so anyway, they chose not to indict us. They dropped the case, it was over with. But we were exonerated of all the charges except the one charge and we, they were voted 11 to one to acquit us on that. And then, uh, and then I was indicted three times after that for the same thing, betting on sports. It was thrown out of court every time. And then, uh, so anyway, but what happens, and what I realized through all this, Joe, is, uh, the- the higher profile you have, the bigger target you become, especially if you're someone who's beat 'em a- a number of times over a period of years, there- there becomes a vendetta. You're the guy that everybody wants to bring down. And then I'm involved in New York originally with a guy with Carl Icahn one of the l- you know, one of the most successful in- investors in the history of the world and, uh, and that investigation went nowhere 'cause there was nothing there. And then this issue came up with Dean Foods and, uh, and bottom line was there was a lot of motivation to- to get me, to indict me, and that's exactly what happened. The four people that were, five people were involved in my case. Uh, three prosecutors, a supervisor, and the former US attorney. Four of 'em, as soon as my case was over within a matter of months, held press conferences and their claim to fame was they had sent me to prison. Three of 'em have gone into private practice today. Their sole business is they represent people with white-collar crimes in the Southern District of New York. They bring 'em back over and they, with the people that they worked with for years and they cut deals. The fourth one, uh, ran for the US Congress in New York. He's now a United States congressman. Uh, and the, and the guy who was a former US attorney, he is now working for a law firm representing people with white-collar crimes. So they go, they went from what they were doing to these very high paying jobs making a lot of money. The other fella's now in politics. He's a, he's a congressman from New York. So there's a lot of motivation, uh, for people on that side to send high profile people to prison and that's kind of how they get to the next rung of the ladder, so to speak.

Episode duration: 2:26:32

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