Joe Rogan Experience #2109 - Abigail Shrier

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast,…

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. ASAbigail Shrier0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. NANarrator0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music)

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      Hello.

   5. ASAbigail Shrier0:12

      Hello.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      Abigail, good to see you again.

   7. ASAbigail Shrier0:14

      It's great to see you.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      Um, what was, uh, what was it like the last time you did the show?

   9. NANarrator0:21

      (laughs)

   10. ASAbigail Shrier0:21

       (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:21

       (laughs)

   12. ASAbigail Shrier0:22

       Well, they tried to kick it off Spotify. (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:25

       Yeah, it was a very small, noisy group of people, by the way.

   14. ASAbigail Shrier0:28

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:28

       It wasn't the- the head people.

   16. ASAbigail Shrier0:31

       Right.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:31

       Th- they tried to make it seem like there was this big movement to get it kicked off Spotify, but when you examine what you were saying, and, you know, many more people are saying what you were saying, this was like, what year was this when you were on?

   18. ASAbigail Shrier0:45

       2020.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:46

       2020?

   20. ASAbigail Shrier0:47

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:47

       Um, the, it had sort of just started boiling.

   22. ASAbigail Shrier0:51

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:51

       You know? And now, four years later, it's- th- there's a lot of people pushing back now.

   24. ASAbigail Shrier0:56

       That's right. And I th- honestly, I thought you were gonna never have me on your show again. (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:00

       Why?

   26. ASAbigail Shrier1:00

       Because, you know, it was very, I mean, they had 10 meetings with the employees demanding that it be removed. I thought, "Joe's gonna be so mad at me." (laughs)

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:09

       No. No, they're wrong. They're wrong. They're wrong. They're w- every time someone wants to stop discussions, they're wrong.

   28. ASAbigail Shrier1:16

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:16

       They're wrong, especially when you wanna try to stop discussions about a very serious and permanent thing that people are advocating to do to children that is also very profitable.

   30. ASAbigail Shrier1:29

       Yeah.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Mmm. …

   1. ASAbigail Shrier15:00

      anxiety. I can't."

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:01

      Mmm.

   3. ASAbigail Shrier15:01

      Um, so all those things are well-known what they call iatrogenic effects, meaning when- whenever a medical procedure actually introduces harm, that's i- an iatrogenic effect. And we know that, of course, you know, drugs and surgeries always come with, you know, even the life-saving ones can come with, um, some harm. And what people might not know is that therapy comes with these risks as well.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:23

      So is, is this your opinion on therapy in general? Do you think there's a place for therapy?

   5. ASAbigail Shrier15:28

      Absolutely. But I, I guess the big picture th- you know, theme here is that therapy with kids and teens is totally different for therapy with an adult, right? An adult sits down ... First of all, an adult makes the decision on their own. "You know, I really wanna worked- work on this. I'm gonna go to a therapist." And you get the patient buy-in, and they're ready to do the hard work of therapy. But a child or teenager is usually strong-armed into therapy, so they don't wanna be there f- in the first place. But more importantly, you know, they can't say as easily to a therapist, um, "Listen, I, I don't really think th- it ... I, I think he gave you the wrong impression. I, I don't think I would call my mom emotionally abusive." Or it's much harder for them to say, "Listen, um, I don't ... I, I know I was bullied in middle school, but I don't think I have PTSD." It's harder for a kid to say that 'cause they don't have the life experience, uh, behind them to know that, and, and they don't know if they're getting better as easily. An adult can say, "You know, I've been seeing this therapist for three years. You know, my depression is as bad as it ever was. It's just not working." And move on, maybe find a different therapist. It's much harder for a teenager to know that.

   6. JRJoe Rogan16:36

      Yeah, I have never been in therapy, although a lot of people told me to ... I should.

   7. ASAbigail Shrier16:40

      (laughs)

   8. NANarrator16:40

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan16:40

      Um, but they all are in therapy, and it doesn't seem to be helping. But the, the people that I know that are in therapy, the ones that are in therapy regularly are the most fucked up. And I don't see improvement. I don't ... I mean, maybe it's just a, a biased sampling of the people that I know that are doing it, but it's ... The people that ... Uh, and it- it's not all of them, but the ones that, uh, I find problematic are very self-indulgent. And there's something about going to a therapist and talking about yourself constantly and your problems constantly that sort of reinforces this sel- self-indulgence.

   10. ASAbigail Shrier17:19

       And that's what can lead depression to get worse, sadness to get worse. As you sit and focus on your pain, it ... If you're not careful, especially with teens and kids, it can make the pain, the worry, the, the feeling of being harmed worse, and I think that's what we're seeing.

   11. JRJoe Rogan17:35

       But what about the good therapists?

   12. ASAbigail Shrier17:36

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan17:36

       Aren't there good therapists that can give you tools to sort of change your patterns of thinking and behavior and move in a positive way?

   14. ASAbigail Shrier17:44

       So if you're struggling with a condition of some sort, a phobia, anorexia, um, OCD, you know, any number of problems that you want to deal with, therapy can be great. Cognitive behavioral therapy, especially, can be great. But if you go ... If you're a teen or kid who shows up bummed out-... or ner- you know, just generally kind of anxious, um, to a therapist, you have a good shot of having that problem made worse.

   15. JRJoe Rogan18:14

       And wh- but why is that? What is it about going to therapy with that problem that's gonna make it worse?

   16. ASAbigail Shrier18:21

       Because you're gonna sit and talk about your worries regularly. They're not gonna say, "You know that exercise is amazing for depression?" Study after study. In fact, there have been recent studies showing it's better than antidepressants for a lot of, you know-

   17. JRJoe Rogan18:36

       Yeah.

   18. ASAbigail Shrier18:36

       ... um, you know-

   19. JRJoe Rogan18:37

       1.25%.

   20. ASAbigail Shrier18:38

       I mean, it's, uh, amazing, right? Like-

   21. JRJoe Rogan18:40

       Oh, excuse me, one and a quarter, like, one times better.

   22. ASAbigail Shrier18:44

       Right.

   23. JRJoe Rogan18:44

       One, you know.

   24. ASAbigail Shrier18:46

       Dancing is apparently amazing for, you know, n- low mood. Now, I'm not talking about severe major depressive disorder, okay? When you have severe chronic depression, you may need to treat it with medication or, or therapy. But for l- you know, low mood, you know, sort of mild m- to moderate depression, exercise turns out to be better, and it doesn't have those side effects.

   25. JRJoe Rogan19:08

       Yeah.

   26. ASAbigail Shrier19:08

       But let me give you an example of a, a teenager I talked to. So I talked to this girl, Becca, uh, is what I call her in the book. But, um, she was a high school senior, and she had been in therapy since age six, okay, when her parents divorced. She didn't have any, um, diagnosed mental disorder of any kind. But she had regularly been in therapy 'cause her parents divorced and they said, "You gotta go to therapy." So I asked her as a high school senior, "So what are you working on with your therapist now?" And she said to me, "My therapist is getting me ready to make friends in college. She's helping me."

   27. JRJoe Rogan19:39

       Oh. Oh, boy.

   28. ASAbigail Shrier19:40

       "So we're rehearsing, we're going through my past experiences and we're talking about how to get me ready to make friends in college."

   29. JRJoe Rogan19:45

       (laughs) That gives me anxiety just thinking about it.

   30. ASAbigail Shrier19:48

       Right.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Yeah. …

   1. ASAbigail Shrier30:00

      of naively, you know, watched Good Hu- Will Hunting and they thought, "You know, therapy is good for everyone." And they sort of naively turned their kids over to a mental health expert right away. You know, at the first... I talked to moms who's h- signed their kids up for therapy because a cat died, because their grandma died, because basically anything that would happen in their life, even routine events. And yeah, look, having your grandparents die is very sad, but that's not, you know, a, you know, unexpected trauma. That's part of life, right?

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:30

      Yeah.

   3. ASAbigail Shrier30:30

      And signing up your kid with a therapist might help if they're having a real problem, but c- but it could also introduce other problems. And I think that's what we're seeing.

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:42

      Yeah, there's a, a th- there's a reluctance to let children experience discomfort.

   5. ASAbigail Shrier30:47

      Right. Exactly.

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:49

      Yeah.

   7. ASAbigail Shrier30:49

      Exactly.

   8. JRJoe Rogan30:50

      And that's really the only way you learn. You have to, you, we learn, I mean, obviously bad feelings can be devastating, but bad feelings also can m- let you understand the landscape of the world better and understand what to do and what not to do and what the consequences are of certain actions. You know, I had, um, some friends when I was growing up that got, uh, that became addicted to drugs and it, it sealed the deal for me, like with cocaine was a big one. Like, I've never tried cocaine and one of the main reasons is because of my friends that I had when I was in high school. I saw the negative feel- it was horrible. It was horrible to experience, it's horrible as a friend to watch all that go down. But those bad feelings teach you something.

   9. ASAbigail Shrier31:37

      That's right.

   10. JRJoe Rogan31:37

       They teach you something very important about what the consequences of certain behavior are.

   11. ASAbigail Shrier31:42

       That's exactly right. There, there's this amazing long-term study on kids who lived through The Depression.

   12. JRJoe Rogan31:47

       Mm-hmm.

   13. ASAbigail Shrier31:48

       And they found that the kids who ended up, and they followed these kids from, from ni- they were born in 1920, 1921, and they followed them long term. And you know who did the best in The Great Depression? It wasn't the poorest kids whose parents, you know, killed themselves or abandoned them, and it wasn't the rich kids who didn't feel The Depression at all. It was the kids who, of the deprived middle class, the ones who had to take in extra jobs, wear hand-me-downs, do extra work. Those people ended up so scrappy and so strong. And here's the thing, they also ended up happy, really happy-

   14. JRJoe Rogan32:21

       Hmm.

   15. ASAbigail Shrier32:21

       ... 'cause they were resilient. They had lived through something, they had learned it, and they'd learned this, this amazing gratitude when things went right.

   16. JRJoe Rogan32:28

       Yeah, that's the thing, that overcoming adversity and becoming resilient, the, there's not, there's no pill for that. There's no, you can't just talk through that. You have to actually experience it.

   17. ASAbigail Shrier32:40

       That's right. And we've spent so much time worrying about trying to make our kids happy, and we don't spend enough time trying to make them strong. And you know what? We've made them neither. Because making happiness your goal is actually a recipe for being unhappy, and if you don't make a kid strong, he can't be happy. And, you know, I, I think about my grandmother and I, you know, 'cause everybody has, you know, if, uh, if anybody thinks about their grandparents, they went through some hard stuff, right? My, I, uh, tell the story in the book of my, my own grandmother lived through The Depression. Her mother died in childbirth giving bir- birth to her. She was bounced around. She had to be taken out of her father's home. I don't know if there was abuse. It's not clear, but somebody decided she should be taken out of her father's home, and he was raising four kids by himself. And when her oldest sister, uh, married at 17, she went to live with her. Then she, um, ended up at 16 she got spinobulbar polio. She ended up in an iron lung for a year.

   18. JRJoe Rogan33:35

       Oof.

   19. ASAbigail Shrier33:36

       And she went on to college. She, uh, raised, she married. She raised three kids. She went to night school. She became one of the first judges in Maryland, female judges in Maryland. And I, and she was the happiest person I knew, and that's the kicker. Like, it wasn't just that she achieved so much. She was someone who took in foster kids her whole life. She was a happy person who felt grateful all the time. And today, a school counselor would take one look at her and say, "You've been through a lot of trauma. We should talk about it."

   20. JRJoe Rogan34:10

       But, but there's gotta be some middle ground, isn't there? Is there some middle ground where children can have someone they can confide in and have conversations with that can express these things to them, that although you're going through something awful, that resilience is actually gonna serve you in the long run? And even though this feels terrible now, on the other side of it you will have new tools that will help you manage life?

   21. ASAbigail Shrier34:35

       If that were to, what school counselors said to kids, that would be amazing. But the problem is the mental health profession doesn't look at, doesn't track, there's no requirement that they track negative side effects. They're not measuring in general... Now I have some exceptions that I mention in the book, but in general they're not measuring, is your anxiety going, getting better? Like, cognitive behavioral therapists will often measure and they'll often say to a parent, "I'm going to see him for this many sessions and we're gonna measure and make sure the phobia is improving." But very often they'll just talk about the pain, and talking about the pain regularly, endlessly, you know, is often not as good for a kid as joining the basketball team.

   22. JRJoe Rogan35:16

       Mm-hmm. So this is, well, so, uh, what you're, uh, talking about is essentially the title of your book which is Bad Therapy.

   23. ASAbigail Shrier35:21

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan35:21

       There has to be some good therapy, right?

   25. ASAbigail Shrier35:24

       Sure. Ther- good therapy is therapy for a kid who needs it, not preventive-

   26. JRJoe Rogan35:28

       Only?

   27. ASAbigail Shrier35:29

       I think so.

   28. JRJoe Rogan35:30

       So, like, what, uh, what do you think the requirements would be for someone to get good therapy? Like, what, what would have to be wrong in the child's life?

   29. ASAbigail Shrier35:37

       I think it would be something where you can't, uh, the parent has tried to stabilize the kid, that it's, they have a problem, it's interfering with functioning and they can't stabilize the kid. They've tried other methods and if they still can't stabilize the kid I think therapy could be absolutely, uh, you know, really helpful and I think you should then research the therapist like you would any surgeon.

   30. JRJoe Rogan35:58

       So do you think it's something like antidepressants where it's just over-prescribed?
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   That seems crazy. …

   1. ASAbigail Shrier45:00

      they, they have-

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:00

      That seems crazy.

   3. ASAbigail Shrier45:01

      Yeah, it's crazy. But they have, uh, they have made no effort to stop this, the m- mental, to warn the public about this. And frankly, I think in many cases, they've undermined it, right? There are therapists who went on Zoom and never went back, right?

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:14

      Yeah. Well-

   5. ASAbigail Shrier45:14

      They'll still see-

   6. JRJoe Rogan45:15

      ... Zoom is a little different, right? 'Cause you're, you actually are interacting with a person, even though it's through a screen. You're communicating with them, right?

   7. ASAbigail Shrier45:22

      You are, um, but you get none of the benefits of in-person. So, um, you know, they, this they have measured and, um, the benefits of being in-person, seeing someone face-to-face, the psychic benefits are real. Even when w- you're with someone you don't wanna be with. The kids who went home for the lockdowns and were in a big household full of relatives they didn't wanna be stuck with when they wanted to be in college-

   8. JRJoe Rogan45:47

      Right.

   9. ASAbigail Shrier45:48

      ... they did better in terms of mental health than the kids who were isolated, uh, and stayed in school.

   10. JRJoe Rogan45:52

       Right. But we're... You're argu- you're sort of arguing against therapy, but yet saying therapy in-person is better than therapy on Zoom. Is that-

   11. ASAbigail Shrier46:00

       For sure.

   12. JRJoe Rogan46:00

       Yeah.

   13. ASAbigail Shrier46:01

       I'm not arguing... I mean, (smacks lips) I'm not arguing against... First of all, adults can see therapists for any reason, and that's totally not only up to them. I think they have the stand to get... They are in a much better position to possibly benefit from it. I, I'm concerned about therapy for kids, especially kids who don't really need it-

   14. JRJoe Rogan46:19

       Hmm.

   15. ASAbigail Shrier46:19

       ... who are a little bummed out. But in any case, we know that Zoom therapy or, or text therapy for the most anxious generation, for the most socially phobic generation supposedly, well, that's not helpful.

   16. JRJoe Rogan46:31

       Hmm. (smacks lips) So, the thing that gets me about therapy-

   17. ASAbigail Shrier46:36

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan46:37

       ... that I've always taugh-... The people that I know that are, that do it all the time, it's just, I don't know how much you should be thinking about yourself.

   19. ASAbigail Shrier46:45

       Yeah. That's right.

   20. JRJoe Rogan46:45

       I don't n-... I mean, is there a, is th- uh, is there a certain amount of time you should allocate to-

   21. ASAbigail Shrier46:53

       (laughs)

   22. JRJoe Rogan46:53

       ... s- thinking about yourself and your own feelings and problems? And how much of that is self-indulgent and how much of that feeds that anxiety itself?

   23. ASAbigail Shrier47:03

       I mean, it does. Thinking about yourself is the same as unhappiness in a certain sense, right? It is indistinguishable from anxiety and depression. And if you just think about, think about how our football coaches motivate a team at halftime. What do they do? They focus the team on the task ahead.

   24. JRJoe Rogan47:21

       Mm-hmm.

   25. ASAbigail Shrier47:21

       That's the way-

   26. JRJoe Rogan47:22

       Yeah.

   27. ASAbigail Shrier47:22

       ... to get them motivated. That's the way to help them complete it. Okay?

   28. JRJoe Rogan47:26

       Yeah.

   29. ASAbigail Shrier47:26

       What they don't say is, "Johnson, are you still upset about your parents' divorce?"

   30. JRJoe Rogan47:30

       (laughs) Yeah, that's not-
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   Hmm. …

   1. ASAbigail Shrier1:00:00

      with daily life. But a little anxiety, feeling ba- and a bad memory, that's not only part of life, but it can have positive effects. So some of the positive effects of anxiety is it helps with performance. If I weren't nervous for this, this right now, I wouldn't have prepared so much to make sure-

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:19

      Hmm.

   3. ASAbigail Shrier1:00:19

      ... I remembered what I was gonna talk about, right? And we don't want someone with no anxiety crossing a street, 'cause he's not gonna look for cars.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:26

      Right. Yeah.

   5. ASAbigail Shrier1:00:27

      And, and we're going in with medication and we're deleting things like anxiety depression. Anxiety helps you make beautiful memories. You remember Christmas morning because of all the nerves about it ahead of time.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:39

      Mm-hmm.

   7. ASAbigail Shrier1:00:39

      Or you remember your first kiss-

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:40

      Mm-hmm.

   9. ASAbigail Shrier1:00:40

      ... partially because of the anxiety. That's why the memories are so clear.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:00:43

       Right.

   11. ASAbigail Shrier1:00:44

       And when we go in, we give kids a pill for that, not only are they not dev- developing an emotional musculature they're gonna need as adults, but we're actually, they're losing p- a really important part of the human experience, like feeling low because you were dumped, and then seeing you can get over it.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:01:01

       Right. That's a very important thing, what you just said about experience anxiety, it actually helps you be sharper.

   13. ASAbigail Shrier1:01:08

       It does.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:01:09

       It really does. You have to be nervous before you do things-

   15. ASAbigail Shrier1:01:11

       That's right.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:01:11

       ... that are difficult. It's just that uncomfortable feeling people avoid-

   17. ASAbigail Shrier1:01:15

       Right.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:01:15

       ... 'cause they get scared of the anxiety, but...If you talk to like, like one of the best examples is UFC fighters. UFC fighters, before they f- they're all nervous, they're all scared.

   19. ASAbigail Shrier1:01:26

       Perfect.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:01:26

       Every one of them.

   21. ASAbigail Shrier1:01:27

       Right.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:01:27

       Terrified.

   23. ASAbigail Shrier1:01:28

       Right.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:01:28

       And they don't wanna fight if they're not.

   25. ASAbigail Shrier1:01:30

       Right.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:01:30

       If y- if you, if you're too calm and too relaxed, you actually have bad performances.

   27. ASAbigail Shrier1:01:33

       And I'll tell you something else. Same is true with depression. Now, I'm not talking about major depressive disorder that's chronic and needs treatment, of course, right? But a lit- a l- if you have something bad happen to you, you go through a divorce, you go through something hard, okay, that doesn't mean you should never try, you know, use meds or, or, or therapy if you absolutely need it. But there can be good, and here's what can be good, okay? Depression is adaptive, okay? And the purpose, I learned this from talking to, interviewing a lot of evolutionary psychologists, and one of the good things about depression is it shuts us down so we don't do anything rash and we think about what change we might wanna make in our life, because sometimes we need to make a change, and if we just medicate away the bad feelings, the worst feelings might be dampened, but we also might be locked into that low state and never make the change we need to make.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:02:24

       Right. Hmm.

   29. ASAbigail Shrier1:02:26

       'Cause we'll lose the motivation. That's the thing. We won't say, "You know what? He treated me badly. I'm tired of this. I'm not getting back together with him."

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:02:35

       Right.
6. 1:15:00 – 1:18:32

   Yeah. …

   1. ASAbigail Shrier1:15:00

      right? And so, the idea that we need brain science in order to raise our kids is just not true, and it's not helpful. It's undercutting parents' confidence. Parents need to trust themselves.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:15:13

      Yeah.

   3. ASAbigail Shrier1:15:13

      We've been raising good kids for a long time.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:15:16

      Are there any studies about the cultures or the civilizations, what- whatever c- countries that have the most mentally healthy people?

   5. ASAbigail Shrier1:15:27

      Oh, that's a good question. So, I interviewed one woman who runs the Georgetown Emotions Lab, and she's a cultural psychologist.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:15:34

      Boy, the Emotions Lab.

   7. ASAbigail Shrier1:15:36

      Yeah. (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:15:36

      That's heavy.

   9. ASAbigail Shrier1:15:37

      It was actually really neat. I went into her lab and we did these ... She showed me these tests she does with subjects behind a one-way mirror-

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:15:42

       Hmm.

   11. ASAbigail Shrier1:15:43

       ... and she hooks them up to electrodes, and, and, um, she looks at ... Her name is Julia Chentsova-Dutton. She's amazing, and she looks at, um, Russia, Japan, um, America, and other countries, especially in the West, so I guess you wanna look at like, and compare like to like, so sort of similar Western cultures-

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:16:02

       Mm-hmm.

   13. ASAbigail Shrier1:16:02

       ... you know, I guess, A- Asian, but, um, you know, simi- similar levels of development and stress, a certain kind of stress. And one of the things she noticed in, in her research was that American kids tended to exaggerate dangers. So, they ... when they listed things they were afraid of or things that scared them, they would say, "Stranger looking at me funny," things that weren't actual dangers. But R- but, but teenagers from other countries, Russia, you know, um, Japan, they tended to be able to calibrate what was a- an actual danger much better, and that's what we're seeing on campus. We're seeing these kids having nervous breakdowns because someone dumped them or because a teacher fa- gave them a bad grade-

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:16:45

       Yeah.

   15. ASAbigail Shrier1:16:45

       ... because they didn't, couldn't hand her, a paper on, o- in on time.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:16:49

       One of the things that drives me the most nuts about universities is this term microaggressions.

   17. ASAbigail Shrier1:16:53

       Right.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:16:54

       Which is so crazy. It's like looking for things to be bigger than they are.

   19. ASAbigail Shrier1:16:58

       Right.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:16:58

       Taking a very small thing, whether it's someone, like, rolling their eyes at you or, or saying something that, you know, m- might be insensitive and calling that insensitive thing a microaggression.

   21. ASAbigail Shrier1:17:12

       That's right, and it's exactly right, and one of the things I looked at was, are we turning these kids into emotional hypochondriacs?

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:17:19

       Hmm.

   23. ASAbigail Shrier1:17:19

       And what I mean is I interviewed a world expert, this man Arthur Barsky at Harvard Medical School, on hypochondriasis, being a hypochondriac, what they, they now call it illness anxiety disorder or somatic symptom disorder, and what is it? So, it turns out what it is is people who put hyper-focus on the normal pains we all feel. They're not faking it. They're just attending to the normal pains and ex- and, and, i- increasing their pain by doing that. And people who turn their pain into an organizing principle of life, of their whole lives-

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:17:52

       Yeah.

   25. ASAbigail Shrier1:17:52

       ... they have a hard time overcoming it.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:17:54

       It becomes their identity.

   27. ASAbigail Shrier1:17:55

       It becomes their identity, and that's what kids are doing today about their emotional pain. "Oh, I have social anxiety. I had trauma from my breakup." You don't have trauma from your breakup, okay? You br- you had a breakup, and it's painful, but, but using these, you know, psychiatric terms-

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:18:13

       Trauma.

   29. ASAbigail Shrier1:18:14

       ... it's not helping.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:18:15

       Right.

Episode duration: 2:00:14