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Joe Rogan Experience #2115 - Riley Gaines

Riley Gaines, a former competitive swimmer, champions the preservation of women's sports and single-sex spaces by advocating for the exclusion of biological male competitors. She leads The Riley Gaines Center at the Leadership Institute, serves as an Independent Women's Voice ambassador, and hosts the podcast "Gaines for Girls with Riley Gaines" on OutKick.com www.rileygaines.com www.rileygainescenter.org

Joe RoganhostRiley Gainesguest
Mar 7, 20242h 29mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:35

    Riley Gaines’ unexpected shift from elite swimmer to women’s-sports advocate

    1. JR

      (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music) Hello.

    2. RG

      Hello.

    3. JR

      Very nice to meet you.

    4. RG

      Yes, and you!

    5. JR

      You've been on a wild little journey, huh?

    6. RG

      A journey that I-

    7. JR

      (laughs)

    8. RG

      ... certainly never expected, never wanted.

    9. JR

      Right.

    10. RG

      Still don't want. Uh, so yeah.

    11. JR

      Um, did you ever in your wildest dreams think that you would have to be a, an advocate for women's sports?

    12. RG

      For sanity. (laughs)

    13. JR

      For sanity, yeah. (laughs)

    14. RG

      No. No. Uh, never did I imagine that anyone would have to be in the position that I'm in, nevertheless me. Uh, so like you said, it really has been a wild almost two years now. Um, I graduated college, uh, set to be a dentist in dental school, uh, wanting to specialize in endodontics, which weirdly enough is root canals. Uh, so to say that this is a totally different path than I could have ever anticipated, um, doesn't do it justice.

    15. JR

      Yeah, it's a minor understatement. (laughs)

    16. RG

      Yeah, right? Exactly.

    17. JR

      So, eh, walk us through the beginnings of this for you. How... What, what was your first introduction to this insanity of biological men with gender dysphoria trying to compete with women?

    18. RG

      So, I'll take you through my kind of timeline here.

    19. JR

      Okay.

  2. 1:35 – 5:52

    The grind of Division I swimming and the COVID disruption

    1. RG

      Started swimming when I was four years old, right? I come from a family of athletes. Uh, so, uh, my dad was an NFL player. My mom, she played D1 softball. My oldest sister, she played softball. Uh, went to Ole Miss. My brother, he's in college playing football now. All my uncles won Superbowls and all the stuff, so come from a family of athletes. Started swimming when I was four. Graduated when I was 22, so you know, 18 years of my life, I really dedicated to my sport. Uh, impossible to put into words, you know this, the time and the hours and the dedication and the sacrifices that it takes to compete and ultimately be successful at the highest level, but of course, I was willing to do this. I knew I had to. Uh, right, you don't get to go to prom. You don't get to have sleepovers with your friends on Friday night because guess what? Practice at 6:00 AM on Saturday. Um, all of that to really say it's a lifelong journey. College rolls around. Um, truth be told, I, I really could've gone anywhere that I wanted to swim. Um, I'm absolutely biased, and the SEC is the best conference, so I knew that was for me. Uh, but went to University of Kentucky. Could not have been a better place for me. Um, freshman year, right, there was a lot of adjusting. There was a lot of, uh, time and hours. I thought I worked hard before. I was wrong. Uh, we were in the water six hours every single day, with three of those hours being before 8:00 AM, right? So you practice from 5:00 AM to 8:00 AM, go to class, come back, practice again from 1:30 to 4:30. Um, ate your dinner, iced your shoulders, went to bed, did it all again the next day. Uh, we swam about 15,000 yards every single day, which is equivalent to like 10-ish miles, so lots of adjusting. Sophomore year, still improving though, still getting better. Sophomore year rolls around. Uh, we're, you know, I, I really started having this breakout season, started doing some, some pretty great things, uh, really had finally developed like a sense of consistency I think. Uh, and about three days before we were supposed to leave for our national championships, which of course, you know, the NCAA, think about basketball, the NCAA tournament, uh, equivalent in swimming. We're ready to go, the meet you work all year, really all your life for. Uh, about three days before we were supposed to leave in March of 2020, um, our coaches pull us out of the water, sit us down, say, "Look, you know, if you live in the dorm rooms, pack your stuff up. You have to leave campus tonight." Of course, COVID had hit. Um, I didn't really know what this meant at the time. There was still a lot of uncertainty around this, uh, so I thought this meant we got a weekend off, we got to go home, we'd quickly return. Uh, but of course that was not a correct assumption, uh, because upon going back home, home is Tennessee for me, right? There were no pools open. There were no gyms open, nothing like that, and so every day, I swam miles aimlessly in the lake. I'd put on a wetsuit, and I'd jump in the boat dock, and I'd swim down by Johnny Cash's house, and I came back, and I did the same route every single day. Um, because again I, I n- knew that I had to if I wanted to continue this breakout season I was having my junior year int- or my sophomore year into my junior year. Um, right? And the amount of snakes that I swam by-

    2. JR

      (laughs)

    3. RG

      ... and like dead catfish that are floating on top of the water that-

    4. JR

      Ugh.

    5. RG

      ... like hit you in your face while you're swimming is not pleasant.

    6. JR

      (laughs)

    7. RG

      Um, but eventually, we were able to come back junior year. Uh, we had to deal with all the COVID theatrics, uh, which I'll be the first person to say that being a college athlete, really being a college student, I would argue being a human during the time of COVID was miserable to say the least. Um, but especially being an athlete, right, in terms of the mask mandates and the social distancing and the contact tracing and, and the mandatory vaccines, uh, which have you ever seen a swimmer in the pool wearing a mask?

    8. JR

      I have.

    9. RG

      You have?

    10. JR

      I have. I watch videos of it.

    11. RG

      Well, we essentially waterboarded ourselves-

    12. JR

      It's so fucking stupid. (laughs)

    13. RG

      ... with these... Isn't it?

    14. JR

      It's so stupid. (laughs)

    15. RG

      Isn't it? So, but the s- dealing with all the theatrics-

    16. JR

      Right.

  3. 5:52 – 8:23

    Breakout success, national-title goals, and spotting a new dominant competitor

    1. RG

      ... outside of all that, really, um, this was the year that I, um, won my first individual SEC title. Uh, University of Kentucky won its first-ever program title in school history. Um-And ultimately, I concluded my junior year placing seventh in the country, which I was proud of, right? Your top eight, you're an All-American, it's a pretty high honor. But I knew right then and there that I placed seventh in the nation my junior year, that my senior year, I had a goal of winning a national title. So, so that's kind of the backstory to, to now kind of finding out about all this other stuff going on. Senior year rolls around. Um, about midway through my senior year, I'm right on pace to achieve my goal. Uh, I'm ranked third in the nation behind one amazing female swimmer who I knew very well, uh, because, you know, like in most sports, your top-tier athletes know of each other regardless of where you compete because you've grown up competing against each other. So, I knew this girl very well, trailing her by a few 100s, tenths of a second maybe. But the swimmer who was leading the nation, by body lengths might I add, which is a very large margin in swimming, right? A sport that's measured down to the hundredth of a second. Uh, this swimmer was leading the country by multiple seconds, was a swimmer that I had never heard of before. Uh, and this is the first time that me and my teammates became aware of a swimmer named Lia Thomas. For all we knew at the time, right? Keep in mind we hadn't seen a picture of this person or else things would have been a little more clear. For all we knew at the time, this was a senior, uh, from University of Pennsylvania, which is not a school that historically produces fast swimmers. Now, I would argue is not a school that historically produces really anything good. Uh, leading the nation by body lengths, ranging in events from the 100 Freestyle, which is, of course, a sprint, and all the freestyle events in between through the mile, which, if you don't know swimming, right? Think about this in terms of your Olympic runners, because that's like saying your best 200-meter runner is your best marathon runner. You and I both know that that doesn't happen. They're two totally different systems, but that's what we were saying in this person. So, I'm scratching my head, right? I'm talking to my coaches, my, my teammates. "Who is this person?"

  4. 8:23 – 11:29

    Learning Lia Thomas is a male athlete—and the NCAA’s “non-negotiable” stance

    1. RG

      We had no idea, uh, and we continued to stay in the dark until an article came out. And in this article, uh, very briefly disclosed in a blip of a sentence, um, as if we were really supposed to just read right over it, it says, "Lia Thomas is formerly Will Thomas and swam three years on the men's team at University of Pennsylvania before deciding to switch to the women's team." And so when I read this, uh, of course, I was shocked naturally, but really it was kind of like the sense of relief that I felt, um, because at this point I went to look up who Will Thomas was because admittedly I was curious. You know, was, was this a lateral movement? Uh, someone who went from ranking amongst the best of the men to now continuing to rank amongst the best of the women? (laughs) Which is, of course, not what we saw, right? We saw that this was a mediocre man, and that's generous, at best, ranking 462nd in the nation the year prior when competing against the men. But, o- that's why I say I felt relieved, uh, because I thought that the NCAA would see this how I saw it and how, again, my teammates saw it, how my coaches saw it, how my family saw it, how anyone with any amount of brain activity would probably comprehend this. Look, nothing hateful about it, nothing even opinionated about it. The sheer facts on the paper in front of us that this was not a lateral movement by any means. Uh, but lo and behold, the NCAA did not see it that way. They saw absolutely nothing wrong with this. And so about three weeks before our national championships in March of 2022, uh, they released a statement saying that Thomas's participation in the women's category was a non-negotiable. Basically saying that, look, there was nothing that we could do, a- as female athletes, there was no questions that we could ask or concerns that we could raise. Uh, we were told that we had to accept this with a smile on our face. Uh, so that's kind of the lead-up to that national championships and, and really how myself and my teammates and really the nation, uh, the world actually found out about Lia Thomas. And I will say I'd, I'd heard of this happening in sports before, um, but I'd really only heard of it going the other way, right? So women, um, females who, uh, wanted to self-identify as men then going to pe- compete in the men's category which, look, I don't, I didn't ever agree with. I never necessarily supported it, but maybe at the time, I didn't see a problem with it, right? Because no one's, uh, I guess, competition, the men's competition isn't being threatened. So, you know, I thought it was dumb on the- the women's behalf, but whatever.

    2. JR

      When, when did you see this from biological women competing as men?

    3. RG

      Uh, actually in the sport of swimming, again. Uh, there was a swimmer from Harvard by the name of Schuyler Bailar, um, competed on the women's team and then decided to switch to the men's team at Harvard.

  5. 11:29 – 15:41

    NCAA hormone policy, shifting rules, and the limits of testosterone-based frameworks

    1. JR

      But isn't there an issue though with steroids? Because if you're gonna compete as a man, that means you're biologically transitioning, that means you're adding exogenous hormones, which would mean that you're taking steroids.

    2. RG

      Right.

    3. JR

      Are you allowed to do that if you're a woman transitioning to a male?

    4. RG

      There was no, there was no... The NCAA's policy at the time was 12 months of HRT, hormone replacement therapy, and you compete, you can compete in the category that best suits you.

    5. JR

      Right. So with Lia Thomas, I'm sure you got into this. What were the requirements that the, this 12 months? Is there an analysis of testosterone levels? Is-

    6. RG

      It was just 12 months. That's it. That's it, so- That's the only standard. No threshold. So, no one is actually checking to see if this person is actually taking estrogen or taking testosterone blockers, or doing anything? (laughs) You just have to say you're on this program for 12 months? I believe so. Yeah, I'm not sure what the process looked like if, if they talked to Thomas's doctors. I don't know. But yeah, the, the policy that was, had been in place since 2010, so obviously this is a pretty old policy, 12 years at the time, um, that's what it stated. So, that policy's been intact for 12 years? Correct. Really? And now, uh, NCAA, in true cowardly fashion, is changing course, right? They don't want to be responsible. They don't wanna be accountable for this, so what they're doing now is a phase-out approach of this policy, uh, and leaving it up to each specific sport governing body to make their own rules. Right? So, now for swimming, they would resort to looking at world aquatics, or FINA, which is the international governing body. For soccer, they'd look at FIFA. For rowing, they'd look at US Rowing. Uh, they don't want a blanket policy anymore, and again, they don't wanna be responsible or accountable. So, they're leaving it up to the governing bodies and what decision have the governing bod- the governing bodies made? Some have taken appropriate steps. Um, I don't know of many sports that have been perfect, but swimming, for example, uh, their policy now is if you've gone through male puberty, you can't compete with women, which they were really the first ones to take that bold first step in prioritizing fairness over inclusion. But the policy insinuates if you have transitioned by the age of 12, then you can compete with the women, which is not satisfactory. Um, even taking puberty blockers before the age of 12, there are still advantages that males possess over females, and even if they didn't, it's the women's category. Yeah. It's not for men. Yeah. So ... Um- And then you have other sports, uh, that have gone the total opposite way, like soccer, for example. Um, that leave it up to, you know, self-identification. Basically, you just compete where you feel best. Oh. How convenient. Isn't it? Um, which at this national championships, right? This, this national championships where we had Lia Thomas, who is a male, a man, identifying, self-identifying as a woman, we were told we fully had to treat this person as a woman, right? This same national championships, we had another athlete who was transitioning, uh, but this athlete is a female, who was then self-identifying as a man. From Yale, uh, Izzy, now goes by the name of Isaac, um, and we were told we fully had to treat this person as a man. Optics purposes here, to give you perspective of what this looked like from our eyes. Okay, finals of the 100 freestyle. Top eight women in the entire nation- "Women". "Women". Yeah, for those that don't have video- (laughs) "Women". Top eight "women" in the entire country and you've got a six foot four man in a women's swimsuit with a bulge next to a "woman" wearing only a Speedo with nothing covering her top. Your reaction was my

  6. 15:41 – 21:28

    Nationals in 2022: protests, locker-room realities, and forced pronoun/media training

    1. RG

      reaction, because I'm sitting there watching this. I'm thinking to myself, "It's me. I'm the crazy one. It must be." (laughs) "This is the freaking Twilight Zone." Um- How does the audience react to this? Like when Lia Thomas gets on the block, when they're about to start a race, how does the audience react to this? Uh, as you can imagine, right, like there was a lot of silence. Uh, a lot of people didn't really know what to do, uh, what to say. There wasn't a lot of clapping. There was a lot of like protesters and like trans rights activists who were there, who were being loud- Yeah. ... and the posters and blah, blah, blah. Uh, lots of booing. Uh, Kellie-Jay Keen was there, who is a phenomenal women's rights activist out of England, and she was there, and, and she ... I'll never forget, I'm standing on the pool deck, and at this point in time, like, of course, me and all my teammates and my coaches, we all knew this was wrong. But it still ... I didn't know how to talk about it or what to say or what outlet to go to, and I remember hearing her from the stands, um, and she just said something that we were all thinking, and she yelled so loud, "He's a cheater." And I was like, "Oh, my gosh." I needed to hear that. Yeah. Um, so there was a lot of booing, uh, as you can imagine. Lots of silence. (exhales) And through this, so you have the loud, uh, trans rights protesters, and is there anyone countering that? Are there loud pro-women sports protesters? There were. Um, not as loud. If I'm gonna be honest, not as ugly, (laughs) which I think that gets a lot of media time, uh, when you have these men with beards and these big signs, uh, that certainly catches a lot of cameras. Um, so they were definitely there, uh, and looking back, like I said, like being able to see them, uh, it inspired me. It gave me courage, um, to be willing to kind of put my name and face to it. 'Cause I was scared at first, um, based on just kind of the silencing tactics that were used to keep us quiet, right? Like we were told, you know, "You'll never get a job if you speak out about this. You're, your employer is gonna look you up and see that you're a transphobe." And you don't want that, do you? You don't want everyone to think that you're transphobic or- Was this a conversation that someone actually had with you? Yeah. We, I mean, we had to go to training, Joe, to learn how...... again-

    2. JR

      How to accept that you're being cheated.

    3. RG

      A senior in college.

    4. JR

      Yeah.

    5. RG

      21 years old.

    6. JR

      Yeah.

    7. RG

      Um, they brought in an outside professional, again, air quotes, because what in the world? How can you be an outside professional, um, who sat us down and taught us how to use she/her pronouns?

    8. JR

      (laughs)

    9. RG

      Again, a senior in college. I'm like, "Am I really-"

    10. JR

      Taught you how, you, an actual she/her-

    11. RG

      An actual she/her.

    12. JR

      ... how do you use she/her pronouns (laughs) .

    13. RG

      We had to go through these interview questions. Uh, they'd throw a question at us. If we didn't answer their fake interview question to their standard, we had to go through it again.

    14. JR

      Oh, my God.

    15. RG

      Yeah.

    16. JR

      Indoctrination.

    17. RG

      Thomas's teammates, right, 16 of these girls plus their parents at the beginning of the season signed onto a letter expressing their discomfort in the locker room. Um, I kid you not, the university responded back with, and I have a screenshot of their response, "If you, as women, feel uncomfortable seeing male genitalia, here are some counseling resources that you should seek in an attempt to reeducate yourselves."

    18. JR

      Reeducate yourself that that's a, a sheenis.

    19. RG

      A sh- (laughs)

    20. JR

      It's not a penis.

    21. RG

      It's a sheenis.

    22. JR

      Oh.

    23. RG

      Queen is penis. (laughs)

    24. JR

      So, does Lia Thompson have sex with girls?

    25. RG

      What-

    26. JR

      Lia Thomas, rather.

    27. RG

      Yeah. At the time, again, this is what I know based off of what his teammates have told me a- and what really has been public knowledge based off what they post and different things, uh, at the time of that national championships, he was still dating women, and active with women.

    28. JR

      Sexually, so obviously has testosterone.

    29. RG

      Yes. But now, um, again, based off of social media, um, he is engaged to another man who claims to be a woman. So two men, but they call themselves lesbians, um, so who knows. But yes.

    30. JR

      But at, but at the time.

  7. 21:28 – 27:42

    The tied race and the trophy photo-op: the moment Riley decided to speak out

    1. RG

      Well, I'll tell you, um, really what had thrusted me over the edge into no longer being willing to lie ultimately is he and I raced in the 200 freestyle. This is the day after he swam the 500 freestyle and won a national title, uh, beat out Olympians, beat out American record holders, right? Keep in mind, these aren't scrubs. They're the most impressive and accomplished female swimmers this world has ever seen. And again, he beat them all by body lengths. Um, one second might not sound like a lot of time, but in the sport of swimming, again, measured down to the hundredth of a second, one second is significant. Uh, he beat the entire nation by almost, the entire nation of women by almost two full seconds. Even the time he went last year would have beat every girl in the country this past season by nearly two full seconds, um, making him the first man to win a Division I NCAA Women's title, trailblazer. Um, but the second day of competition, the day after this, he and I race in the 200 freestyle. Uh, so, look, we get on the blocks, dive off, swim eight laps of freestyle-

    2. JR

      Crazy.

    3. RG

      ... touch the wall at the end. I look up at the scoreboard, and almost impossibly enough, Joe, we had gone the exact same time, meaning, of course, we had tied, uh, which is incredibly, one, it's incredibly embarrassing for a six-foot-four man to not even be able to beat, like, a 5'5", uh, (laughs) female. Um, but again, going a, a minute and 40-ish seconds, and not even 1/100 separated us. You can't tell me that's not divine intervention. Um, but tied, we get out of the water. Uh, we go, yeah, you can see here, we both went 1:43.40. Not one of us going 1:43.39 or 1:43.41-

    4. JR

      Crazy.

    5. RG

      ... tying. Uh, get out of the water, go behind the awards podium. The NCAA official looks at both Thomas and myself, Thomas who is towering over me, right, six-foot-four, and this official looks at both of us and says, "Great job, you two. Uh, but you tied, and we only have one trophy, so we're gonna give the trophy to Lia. Sorry, Riley, you don't get one." My-

    6. JR

      Jesus Christ.

    7. RG

      ... heart rate was still high, having just competed. My adrenaline was still pumping. Um, and so the first thing that I thought ended up being the first thing that I said, and the first thought that I had was just what you had just said, right? Like, "Isn't this everything that Title IX was passed to prevent from happening? What do you mean you're gonna give the trophy to the man in the women's 200 freestyle?" Um...... I asked the question that no one dared ask all season, and I said, "Why?" Which, of course, uh, he didn't have an answer as to why. They didn't give him a script of what to say when someone asks you the dreaded question of why. And so, his first, (laughs) his first excuse he came up with, uh, he's, he's stumbling on his words and he's, "Uh, uh, well, uh, we're actually just doing this in chronological order," he said. And so I said, "Okay. Do you mean alphabetical? Because G comes before T. Otherwise, I literally have no idea what you're being chronological about. Right? We tied. So again, what's your rationale here?" Uh, and finally, he realized that he didn't have a justification, he didn't have an answer for this. And so ... And I actually appreciate his honesty. Uh, this is when his face changed. He looked sad. His voice changed. I could tell he didn't even believe what he was about to say. Um, but this official looked at me and said, "Riley, I am so sorry, uh, but we have been advised as an organization that when photos are being taken, it's crucial that the trophy's in Leah's hands. Again, you can pose with this one, uh, but you have to give yours back."

    8. JR

      (sighs)

    9. RG

      "Leah takes the trophy home. You go home empty-handed, end of story. We can eventually mail you one-"

    10. JR

      Oh my God.

    11. RG

      ... is what they said. So it was kind of- it was like that moment when I, I could- like, I felt guilty at that point. I felt guilty for participating in the farce. I felt guilty for even getting in the water at this point. And so, it kinda hit me. I, I won't say I was necessarily cowering, because it didn't feel like that to me. I wasn't necessarily scared to approach the topic, I just thought someone else would. I thought a coach would say something. I thought some other swimmer. I thought someone with political power, someone within the NCAA. Quite honestly, I thought someone's dad would come down there and yank this man out of our locker rooms. But it was in that moment, um, where we were standing on the podium, myself included. I, I'm standing on the podium. And we're clapping, and we're smiling, and we're cheering. And it hit me. I'm like, "What in the world are we clapping for?" Because, I mean, really what we're applauding is our own erasure, our own demolition. And so, uh, it was right then and there that, uh, again, like a slap across the face, I was like, "How in the world can we, as women, as female athletes, expect someone to stand up for us if we aren't even willing to stand up for us?" Like, this has to come from us. Um, s- so again, I knew all season that the unfair competition was wrong. I knew all season that the locker room aspect was wrong. I knew that the silencing that we were facing from our universities, I knew all of that was wrong. We all did. But it wasn't until this official reduced everything that we had worked our entire lives for down to a photo op to validate the feelings and the identity of a man at the expense of our own. That's, that's really when I, I decided that I couldn't continue being silent.

  8. 27:42 – 36:13

    Silencing mechanisms: scholarship leverage, emotional blackmail, and coercive “inclusion” tactics

    1. JR

      And so what was the first thing that you did?

    2. RG

      Um, as you can imagine, uh, there was a ton of reporters there, like I said, which swimming is not a sport that garners media attention. Uh, but there- this meet was unique because there was. And so my inbox was filled with different reporters who had been reaching out to me from all the different outlets, left-leaning, right-leaning, everything in between, uh, who were desperately hoping to get a quote or an interview that they could take back to their editor, um, so they could have the story. 'Cause up until this point, remember, really no one had spoken about this, at least not with their, their face and their name to it. Um, some people anonymously. Even some of his teammates had spoken anonymously at this point. Um, and so we had been ... This training that we went to previously, I mentioned, where we had to lo- use- learn how to use she/her pronouns.

    3. JR

      (laughs)

    4. RG

      Uh, we were also told that any media, uh, opportunity that came our way, we had to forward on to our sports information director. Um-

    5. JR

      Now, had this been the case in the past?

    6. RG

      Oh. They had never addressed this in the past, because again, swimming is just not a sport where this is ever-

    7. JR

      So you had never been contacted by the media previously in your career?

    8. RG

      Uh, I mean, I'd done some stuff with ESPN and, and, you know, uh, whole- I broke the SEC record, uh, and all that stuff. And so that was a pretty big deal. And, and so there had been other stuff, but all mild, like softball kinda thing, you know?

    9. JR

      But there was nothing where you had to-

    10. RG

      No.

    11. JR

      ... run it by-

    12. RG

      No training.

    13. JR

      ... other people-

    14. RG

      No.

    15. JR

      ... before you were allowed to have these conversations?

    16. RG

      Correct.

    17. JR

      So this was the first time?

    18. RG

      Correct. And so, um, they told us though, like, "We'll help you coordinate."

    19. JR

      S- can I ask you- can I pause you there?

    20. RG

      Come on.

    21. JR

      I- do they have the right to do that? Do the- is it anywhere established that they can dictate who you're allowed to communicate with in the media? Has this ever been an issue before where they can restrict your ability to communicate? Like-

    22. RG

      Not that I know of. Um, I will say, like ... A- and I'll be honest here, like m- my school, University of Kentucky, uh, the athletic side of the university a- and of this space treated me awesome. Like my athletic director, Mitch Barnhart at Kentucky, who's been there for 20+ years, an incredible Christian, uh, just an incredible stand-up guy who leads with, by example. He's a wonderful human. He's always been supportive of me. Um, not even necessarily my stance, but supportive of me, which means a lot. Uh, and my coach, Lars Jorgensen, who had coached there for 10 years at the time, um, amazing and supportive of me. But a lot of the kind of silencing and submission stuff came from the academic, academia side, or, or the compliance side of things. So my athletic side of my university was wonderful. Um-But yeah, the compliance side. Uh, I was even told specifically, "Riley, remember, uh, you signed a scholarship," and when you sign that scholarship, they went as far to say, "You gave away your rights to speak in your own personal capacity. Remember, you represent us. Remember whose name is across your chest and across your cap, because it's not your own. It's ours."

    23. JR

      This is specifically said?

    24. RG

      Yeah. They said, "We have already taken your stance for you."

    25. JR

      You signed away your rights to have your opinions on something that deeply affects your life's work-

    26. RG

      Right.

    27. JR

      ... for a university-

    28. RG

      Right.

    29. JR

      ... that's terrified of pushback.

    30. RG

      And, and understand this is not specific to just the University of Kentucky. This is why there are so few voices really speaking out, uh, in, in my position, right, like, young college-aged girls who have been impacted or affected by this. This is why so few are willing to take a stand. It's because it works. Um, look at what happened at, at Roanoke College in Virginia. It, it's the same story because it's always the same story, where this mediocre man who swims three years on the men's team decides his senior year he wants to join the women's team to become a record smasher. Same thing happened there. Uh, these girls, uh, they're getting in contact with me saying, "Hey, this boy on the boys team wants to join the women's team," um, but they told me that they got to vote on if they wanted him on the team or not. And so, uh, these girls, you know, they're talking to me. They're like, "Yeah, uh, there's 17 of us on the team, and all 17 of us are gonna say no." And I was like, "That's great." You know, we haven't seen really unity in this topic amongst a whole team, so that's wonderful. And so, um, they go into their meeting where they were told they got to anonymously vote. Uh, the coach walks in, uh, has the boy with him. He says, "Hey, uh, I know I told you the vote was gonna be anonymous, but it's actually gonna be by a show of hands, and I'm gonna let the boy here give a speech before." Uh, so the boy gets up. He gives this talk, and he says, "Hey, uh, if you don't vote yes, I will kill myself, and it will be your fault." So, as you can imagine, 13 of those 17 girls changed their vote to yes.

  9. 36:13 – 40:52

    Language battles: ‘gender-affirming care,’ redefining ‘woman,’ and state-level legislation

    1. RG

      Sounds positive, but really, like, think about the message that even just the verbiage of gender-affirming care sends, whether it's to a minor or anyone for that matter.

    2. JR

      Right.

    3. RG

      We're telling them, especially kids, we're telling them that they're correct to feel as if they were born in the wrong body.Which, what a terrible, what a terrible message. Uh, we should be telling them that they're perfect just the way God created them. That's what we should be telling-

    4. JR

      Yeah.

    5. RG

      ... these kids. But that's, that's not the message that they're being sent.

    6. JR

      No. It's, it's one of the most bizarre things. And you know, Da- do you-

    7. RG

      And even, like, sorry to... But-

    8. JR

      Okay.

    9. RG

      ... even this, like, this verbiage of sex reassignment surgery, it sounds harmless. But when you say it, it's as if you're subconsciously admitting that you can in fact reassign your sex, which is so detrimental to the English language. A- and we're playing into their game when we use that verbiage. Even the verbiage of biological woman-

    10. JR

      Yeah.

    11. RG

      ... I've got such a problem with. And I didn't always, because again, I, I thought I had to make the distinction, right? I am a biological female. Thomas is a biological male. Um, I had to take a lot of math courses, upper level math courses in college. And so, I'm standing there one day and I'm like, "If this was an algebra equation, wouldn't those words 'biological' just, like, cancel each other out? Like, why are we saying that?" And then it hit me. I'm like, "How silly and redundant, as if I have to add that prerequisite of biological to declare I'm a biological being." That's so dumb-

    12. JR

      Right.

    13. RG

      ... quite frankly. And, and when we say it, it's as if we're subconsciously admitting that there's an un-biological alternative to being a man or a woman or a male or a female or a girl or a boy, and there's not.

    14. JR

      Right. There's not.

    15. RG

      So, yeah.

    16. JR

      Did you ever see that interview where that bike racer is talking to one of the late night hosts, and they were asking about-

    17. RG

      Veronica Ivy.

    18. JR

      ... biological women?

    19. RG

      Come on.

    20. JR

      And she's like, "Well, uh, I, I am a biological human being, and I am a woman. So I'm a biological woman." And the host is just like...

    21. RG

      Yep. (laughs)

    22. JR

      Like, the-

    23. RG

      Yeah.

    24. JR

      Fucking cowards. You're not saying anything?

    25. RG

      Totally.

    26. JR

      None of that seems nuts to you?

    27. RG

      Totally. And that's, that's, that's the game that's being played here, right?

    28. JR

      Yeah.

    29. RG

      You give an inch, they take a mile. Uh, which is why I've, I've really realized now, like, how powerful language, our language is and the words that we use. Like, I'm very particular about what I say. Like, I won't call... I, I'll, I'll call... I, to try and just call Thomas "Thomas." Um, but people can legally change their name and, like, whatever.

    30. JR

      Yeah.

  10. 40:52 – 58:14

    From sports policy to broader culture war: media power, polarization, and “institutional capture”

    1. JR

      Well, it's, it's requiring a lot more pushback than most people are willing to do.

    2. RG

      Yeah.

    3. JR

      Because the activists on the side of promoting this nonsense are very loud, and they've made it their entire identity to get this across. And they also connect themselves to the idea of this, air quotes, "progress" being ubiquitous, that it spreads across the country. And that this is, this is for them a sign that the world is moving in the right direction. So they're, like, vehemently opposed to any pushback against this.

    4. RG

      Come on.

    5. JR

      And they're, they're really aggressive.

    6. RG

      They are.

    7. JR

      But everyone on the side that's like, "This is fucking crazy," most of those people have jobs and families-

    8. RG

      Families.

    9. JR

      ... and obligations, and they're fucking busy. And the- they do not have time to, uh, sit at a council meeting with these fucking lunatics.

    10. RG

      12:00 PM on a, a Monday, right?

    11. JR

      Yeah.

    12. RG

      I know.

    13. JR

      And, and have them scream into microphones, "You're committing trans genocide." And you're like, "Oh, okay. What the fuck?" What is this?

    14. RG

      (laughs)

    15. JR

      What is this and how do I... How did this get started? It's like a zombie disease that made its way across the entire country. And you're like, "Well, who got bit first?"

    16. RG

      Exactly.

    17. JR

      Can we figure out what the fuck happened here? Wh- who's doing this? How is it possible that anyone with children, anyone who's a father, who has daughters, is okay with this? How is that possible? This is n- nonsense at the highest level. And even though it's completely... It's not like close. You know, it's not like, "Well, I kinda see their point."

    18. RG

      No.

    19. JR

      It's not even remotely close. And yet it has been taken up by m- a giant swath of the greatest country the world has ever known. Like, that is very bizarre. And what I was gonna say earlier is, Douglas Murray, who's the British intellectual, who's a brilliant guy, and he said this...... and when he fir- he started saying it years ago, he's like, "Whenever a civilization is in collapse, they become obsessed with gender." It becomes a thing. It was with the Greeks-

    20. RG

      That's true.

    21. JR

      ... and the Romans. The- it's like... it seems to be like a symptom-

    22. RG

      A step in the process.

    23. JR

      Yeah, it's a thing, like, "Oh, th- see those hives that you have? Oh, you're infected. Oh, you're sick." Oh, you're, you're, you're... everyone's, like, changing their gender and you got 50% of kids in some colleges are LBGTQ... pl... 2... Q-

    24. RG

      I-A-S.

    25. JR

      ... I-A-S. What?

    26. RG

      I know.

    27. JR

      How is it 50%? This is a fucking mind virus. Like, what is going on here? And what Douglas has said is that this... you could find this throughout history.

    28. RG

      Of course. A- and honestly, if you take all of the different little pieces of what we're seeing, e- especially as it pertains to, like, the cultural issues that are really plaguing this country-

    29. JR

      Yeah.

    30. RG

      ... right? If you look at the denial of objective truth, um, the shift in our language, like we mentioned, the, the breakdown of faith. We used to be a country that proudly said, "In God we trust" and "One nation under God." You look at the breakdown of the nuclear family and really pinning parents and kids against each other. You look at the breakdown of our freedoms, such as the freedom of speech. Uh, you look at the propaganda that's being spread through the media. I mean, the list goes on of all of these different little things. If you put them together, it points in one direction, and that direction, not to sound conspiracist or crazy here, is truly Marxism. Or, or, um... right? Like, you talk to someone from North Korea or China or Germany or Cuba or Brazil or Venezuela or, or Russia, or any of these countries that have once embraced this socialist, communist, Marxist regime, and they will tell you that it's a slippery slope. And it's a slippery slope, but by the hands and feet of our own leaders, the people in the White House, we are actively being led down. Um, and d- and like you said, sex, the most basic of truths, the sheer essence of humanity... Hate to break it to you, myself, every single person watching and listening, you're all here from man and woman. And B- so, so being asked to deny that is as if we're being asked to deny that the sky is blue, um, or being told to say two plus two is five. And if anyone has read 1984 or looked... had a, a brief understanding of history, like you said, you will understand what it means when we start saying two plus two is five.

  11. 58:14 – 1:12:20

    Social media and censorship: X/Twitter, TikTok deletions, and information control claims

    1. JR

      And then I would do it through social media, and I would have the Democrats almost universally control social media.

    2. RG

      Of course they do.

    3. JR

      Except this one wild African American. (laughs)

    4. RG

      (laughs)

    5. JR

      This one wild genius dude decides to buy Twitter.

    6. RG

      Isn't it amazing?

    7. JR

      Amazing. If he didn't do that, we would genuinely be fucked.

    8. RG

      Totally.

    9. JR

      We would be in a real pickle.

    10. RG

      Honestly, Twitter, or X now, is, is really where I get, like, all my news. Like, I don't even, um, resort to a lot of the mainstream media places, at least for breaking news. Like, I'll find it on X. Uh, so God bless Elon Musk. I, I really think that he has, um, almost single-handedly... There's been, there's been, uh, I would say some pivotal pe- people or, or groups in this culture who have really helped turn some things around. I think the Babylon Bee has done a phenomenal-

    11. JR

      Yes.

    12. RG

      ... job of-

    13. JR

      But they were banned from Twitter.

    14. RG

      Yeah.

    15. JR

      And that was one of the breaking points for Elon.

    16. RG

      Exactly.

    17. JR

      When he found out they were banned from Twitter, he's like, "Uh, what the fuck?"

    18. RG

      It was a turning point.

    19. JR

      But I mean-

    20. RG

      And so, I- I really think he's single-handedly almost, um, really turned this culture around. So God bless him.

    21. JR

      He's definitely made it take a turn. And, and p- for anybody who thinks that's exaggerating, you have to take into consideration, that is not a business move that any corporation that wants to make-

    22. RG

      No.

    23. JR

      ... money would have approved.

    24. RG

      No.

    25. JR

      If you're Elon Musk, you can do it. But there's, like, maybe five of those guys on Earth-

    26. RG

      Right.

    27. JR

      ... that could just buy something for $44 billion.

    28. RG

      (laughs) That's crazy.

    29. JR

      That's really probably n- worth half that.

    30. RG

      Right.

  12. 1:12:20 – 1:47:22

    Campus confrontations and the San Francisco State incident: protest escalation and lack of accountability

    1. RG

      And I don't have a Reddit, I don't have a Reddit account. That is not my space. Um-

    2. JR

      But you go in and look at things sometimes.

    3. RG

      But, but people will post, like, other Reddit clips, um, and I, I speak a lot on these, on college campuses, again, with the intention of, of really trying to garner, um, support from the youth, but also encouraging them to find their own voice and to be bold and to, to be, um, leaders themselves, um, all done through the Leadership Institute, which is just a phenomenal group. But, um, a lot of these college campuses I speak on, uh, the protesters, when they hear I'm coming, they'll go to Reddit and they'll start going off, uh, which is hilarious to look at. But honestly, it's kind of scary. Like, a lot of these people, uh, for instance, I was at San Francisco State a few months back, um, which was my first mistake, going to fricking San Francisco.

    4. JR

      Right.

    5. RG

      But I went there with the intention of, right, like, talking about what you and I have talked about, at least from, from that national cham- championship standpoint, everything that we went through, why it's important.I went there, uh, and what a naive thought to think that these people, these students would come with an open mind and the willingness to have their hearts softened, because they did not. Uh, they came with their pitchforks and fire. And, um, upon me delivering my speech in, in a, a classroom setting, right, so like a podium at the front. There's seats in the class. Uh, upon delivering my speech, afterwards, uh, a group of protestors entered into the room, hundreds of them, okay? Turned off the lights, rushed to the front. I'm being, like, shoved and hit and jostled. I'm, like, so confused what's going on. Um, punched, right? But fortunately for me, men in dresses, their punches don't hurt that bad. Um, but ultimately, these protestors ended up holding me through for ransom. Throughout the night, uh, demanding that if I wanted to make it home to see my family safely again, I had to pay them money. Um, all the while, you might be wondering, "Okay, well, where are the police?" Joe, it's San Francisco. The police are being held for ransom in the same room with me. I'm looking at the police like, "Pretty sure I'm being held against my will. Pretty sure we call that kidnapping. Isn't there something you can do to, like, alleviate what's going on here, to, to deescalate and get me home safely?" Um, "No, uh, actually, we can't." We, it's, it's, we're not allowed to be seen as anything other than an ally to that community. Uh, the same community who's on the other side of that door calling them racist pigs for protecting a white girl like me, um, not-

    6. JR

      They're ... Say that, say that again. They're not allowed to be seen as anything other than an ally?

    7. RG

      Right.

    8. JR

      So, this is, like, a mandate from the police department, so anything that involves anyone who's trans, you, you have to automatically support regardless of whether or not that person's the aggressor?

    9. RG

      Let me tell you, even-

    10. JR

      Is that fair to say that?

    11. RG

      Well, that's what was communicated to me. Even now, um, where there is an ample amount of video footage of this happening. There is audio evidence. There are eyewitness testimonies. Again, the police were in the room with me. There's footage that I requested that they never sent me, whether it was CCTV footage or their body cam footage. There's an ample amount of evidence to charge whoever is responsible, whether it's the students, whether it's the university, whether it's honestly the police department at this point. Um, they have come back now and said that, uh, the charges are alleged. There's nothing they can do. There's no evidence to prosecute or press charges against anyone. (laughs) I'm looking at this. Keep in mind, right, the dean of students shows up when I'm being held in this room for, for hours and hours, four hours, through the middle of the night in this room. Uh, and the dean of students shows up. He's negotiating with the students how, how much I owe each of them to get out. Uh, the price that, uh, I had heard was agreed upon through the side of the door was $10 each, which I'm mad about-

    12. JR

      (laughs)

    13. RG

      ...'cause I think I'm worth more than $10.

    14. JR

      They all want 10 bucks?

    15. RG

      Granted, there was a lot of them.

    16. JR

      Oh my God.

    17. RG

      But I'm like, "$10?"

    18. JR

      But how funny is that? "Give us all $10. We're hungry."

    19. RG

      (laughs) "We'll leave."

    20. JR

      "We wanna go get Subway." (laughs)

    21. RG

      But anyways-

    22. JR

      Fuck is wrong?

    23. RG

      ... the university the next day sent, uh, out a university-wide email to their, I mean, u- I mean, staff, professors, students, everybody, and said, "We are so proud of our brave students for handling Riley Gaines in the manner that they did. We know how deeply traumatic her presence is on this campus, and so here are some counseling resources for you guys."

    24. JR

      Oh my God.

    25. RG

      "You know, just know we see you. We stand with you. We see, hear," or, "We see you. We hear you. We love you."

    26. JR

      Again.

    27. RG

      Nowhere in there did they condemn violence against women, for that matter. Nowhere in there did they say, "We uphold our First Amendment and the freedom of speech." No, of course not.

    28. JR

      The right to civil discourse.

    29. RG

      No, forget it.

    30. JR

      Phew.

Episode duration: 2:29:05

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