Joe Rogan Experience #2137 - Michelle Dowd

Michelle Dowd is the author of "Forager: Field Notes on Surviving a Family Cult," revealing her life growing up on an isolated mountain within an apocalyptic cult, and how she found her way out by gleaning strength from the wilderness. https://www.michelledowd.org/ https://twitter.com/Michelledowd2

Joe RoganhostMichelle Dowdguest

Apr 18, 20242h 53mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

150 min read · 30,019 words

0:00 – 1:14
Michelle Dowd’s origin story: born into a multi-generational high-control group
1. JRJoe Rogan
  (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.
2. MDMichelle Dowd
  The Joe Rogan Experience.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music) So thanks for coming in, Michelle.
4. MDMichelle Dowd
  Thanks, Joe, for having me. (laughs)
5. JRJoe Rogan
  My pleasure.
6. MDMichelle Dowd
  I love your man cave.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, thank you, thank you.
8. MDMichelle Dowd
  (laughs) I really do. It's awesome.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. It's, uh, it's fun. Um, so when I heard your story, I was like, "This sounds completely insane."
10. MDMichelle Dowd
  Hmm.
11. JRJoe Rogan
  And, um, just to fill people in, just explain what happened.
12. MDMichelle Dowd
  Well, uh, I was born into a cult, a high-control group that I didn't know to call a cult, because, you know, I was born there.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  'Cause you were a child, yeah.
14. MDMichelle Dowd
  That was my whole experience. My grandfather started in 1931, so my mother was also born into the cult in the 1940s. My dad-
15. JRJoe Rogan
  Wow.
16. MDMichelle Dowd
  ... was, um, let's just say he was 12 when he first met my grandfather, who would later become his father-in-law, and my grandfather became his father figure. So my mom was married off to this, uh, man who was a follower of her father, and I am the second child of their union.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  Wow.
18. MDMichelle Dowd
  And, yeah.
1:14 – 3:31
How the founder built ‘The Field’: from Boy Scout troop to prophet narrative
1. JRJoe Rogan
  Where'd, where'd all this take place?
2. MDMichelle Dowd
  So this took place, um, that he originally started it near LA in Pasadena, which most people know because of the Rose Parade and-
3. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
4. MDMichelle Dowd
  ... other things like that. Um, when he first started it, it started... My understanding is he was a Boy Scout leader, and he was an orphan. He had come from Oklahoma when he was a young man, and, uh, the Boy Scouts didn't allow him to have as much control as he wanted to have of the boys.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, boy.
6. MDMichelle Dowd
  So (laughs) yeah, which is a lot of control. So he left the Boy Scouts, and he took the boys with him, and some of the boys from his original troop in 1931 stayed with him past his death. One of the first boys took over after him in the late 1980s.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  Wow.
8. MDMichelle Dowd
  Or the early 1980s, actually. Yeah, so he was really good at getting followers.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  What was his background? Like, what, what did he... What did he do before he did all this?
10. MDMichelle Dowd
  Nothing. (laughs)
11. JRJoe Rogan
  Nothing?
12. MDMichelle Dowd
  He was complete... I don't think he graduated from high school. I don't know that for sure. He lied about everything, and he said he had a PhD from Stanford later when he... (laughs)
13. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
14. MDMichelle Dowd
  Yeah. "It wasn't until I got to college that none of this, this..."
15. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
16. MDMichelle Dowd
  I'm not even 100% sure he knew how to read, to be quite honest.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  Really?
18. MDMichelle Dowd
  Um, he came from a family where, uh, he was the only child that lived out of his particular mother, who was married to a man. It was a second marriage, and his first wife had died, and then, you know, he had a bunch of kids or whatever. So he had a bunch of half-siblings, but no full siblings, and apparently, now this could be lore too, they kind of excommunicated him. He compared himself to Joseph-
19. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
20. MDMichelle Dowd
  (laughs) You know, like of the multicolored-
21. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
22. MDMichelle Dowd
  ... uh, clothing and everything. So he was, like, put down a well, he liked to say, and, um, he escaped, and he came to LA, uh, in the height of, I don't know, the silent films, things like that. He said he was in silent films. There's no chance that is true.
23. JRJoe Rogan
  Wow.
24. MDMichelle Dowd
  But he said he was, and he got some sort of probably church education when he got here, and he declared to everyone he was the prophet of God. He was gonna live 500 years, and he was going to lead the army of God in the Second Coming.
25. JRJoe Rogan
  Wow. And that's your grandpa?
26. MDMichelle Dowd
  That's my grandpa. (laughs)
27. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
28. MDMichelle Dowd
  It clearly is. (laughs)
29. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, my God. (laughs)
30. MDMichelle Dowd
  Yeah.
3:31 – 6:05
A men-only, celibate organization—and the strict rules imposed on women
1. MDMichelle Dowd
  But it was a male organization for a very long time. It was all men, and it wasn't until-
2. JRJoe Rogan
  All men?
3. MDMichelle Dowd
  All men. It was all men. It was from 1931 to 1966, when my mom married my father. No one was allowed to get married there. They just-
4. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
5. MDMichelle Dowd
  And they were all presumably celibate, and it was just men.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, my G- presumably.
7. MDMichelle Dowd
  Yeah. Presumably, yeah.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  It's like prison.
9. MDMichelle Dowd
  (laughs) Yeah, very much. (laughs)
10. JRJoe Rogan
  They're gay for the stay.
11. MDMichelle Dowd
  Absolutely. So I was raised by a bunch of older men who had never been with a woman. Um, you can see-
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, my God.
13. MDMichelle Dowd
  ... how well that ended, and, um, but he didn't want his daughter to be an old maid, and she was getting older. She was 24 by the time he married her off to my dad, and at that point, um, I think the women, like, his wife said, you know... It was s- their fourth child. They had three boys first, and so this was his first daughter, and he decided that since the world had not yet ended that maybe he should marry her off before she either became an old maid or maybe a loose woman. Who knows?
14. JRJoe Rogan
  When did he think the world was gonna end?
15. MDMichelle Dowd
  Well, he used to prophesy 1977.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  Want some more fire for your cigar?
17. MDMichelle Dowd
  Sure, I'd love some fire.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  I'll keep this over here if you want. It's easy to use.
19. MDMichelle Dowd
  Thank you.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Just push that thing down.
21. MDMichelle Dowd
  Where I come from, this is a grave sin, by the way.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, a woman smoking a cigar, or anyone?
23. MDMichelle Dowd
  Anyone smoking a cigar.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  Anyone?
25. MDMichelle Dowd
  Especially Romans.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Are you allowed to drink coffee?
27. MDMichelle Dowd
  Yes.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  What, what was the rules?
29. MDMichelle Dowd
  Um, well, coffee's interesting, because I don't know that they said out loud you could drink coffee, but I don't remember it being forbidden, that the body is the temple of God-
30. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
6:05 – 11:35
Why cult leaders ‘work’: charisma, hypnosis, and crowd psychology
1. JRJoe Rogan
  It is just...... absolutely fascinating to me how some people develop these groups, and how they do it, and, like, what the characteristics of the leaders are.
2. MDMichelle Dowd
  Hmm.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  It's, it's, it's so weird. Um, there's a place out here called, um, the One World Theatre. And, uh, it used to be owned by a cult, uh, that there's a documentary on called Holy Hell. And, uh, this guy had started a cult in Los Angeles. He was a yoga teacher, but he was also a gay porn star and a hypnotist.
4. MDMichelle Dowd
  (laughs)
5. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
6. MDMichelle Dowd
  (laughs) That's a nice combo.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  It's a great combo for a documentary.
8. MDMichelle Dowd
  ... ever, certainly.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  The documentary's incredible.
10. MDMichelle Dowd
  Uh-huh.
11. JRJoe Rogan
  You watch the documentary like, "What the hell?"
12. MDMichelle Dowd
  (laughs)
13. JRJoe Rogan
  And, uh, he was running from the Cult Awareness Network, so he changed his name. His original name was Jaime Gomez. Um, he changed his name, I forget what it was. He had, like, two different names, so I think one was Michelle, and there was another one. So, and then he came out here to Austin because right after Waco, they were kinda cracking down on cults, and they were-
14. MDMichelle Dowd
  (laughs) Yeah.
15. JRJoe Rogan
  ... trying to find, yeah.
16. MDMichelle Dowd
  I can see why, uh-huh.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  So they're like, "We gotta go." So the Cult Awareness Network was onto him because also family members were calling in, "Hey, we lost our children. They're with this guy, and he's crazy and, you know, they're g- got the people in the woods in LA." And so he moved out to Austin and, and had his followers build him this theater where he could dance in front of them.
18. MDMichelle Dowd
  Wow.
19. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, and so there's-
20. MDMichelle Dowd
  Is he a good dancer?
21. JRJoe Rogan
  It was like, he was a very handsome guy, and he was very charismatic and he was, like, ripped. He was a yoga instructor. He had a six-pack. He was a beautiful man.
22. MDMichelle Dowd
  (laughs)
23. JRJoe Rogan
  And, um, I think he, and he also was, like, kind of exotic-looking, so he had this, like, guru thing going on, you know, and then he was also a r- a hypnotist, so he's, like, really good at manipulating people's consciousness. And, uh-
24. MDMichelle Dowd
  That might be a criteria for being a cult leader, by the way.
25. JRJoe Rogan
  The charismatic?
26. MDMichelle Dowd
  Um, maybe a form of hypnotist.
27. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah?
28. MDMichelle Dowd
  Like you, you have to be able to manipulate consciousness.
29. JRJoe Rogan
  Hmm.
30. MDMichelle Dowd
  Because if you, if people, at least your top leaders have to be indoctrinated. If they are not, I mean, some people call it brainwashing, you can call it what you want, but y- you have to have people who worship you.
11:35 – 17:04
‘The Trip’ and the SWAT machine: ritualized punishment and shame-based control
1. MDMichelle Dowd
  ... that to be trained out of you. So I went to, um, lunch a couple days ago with someone I hadn't seen since I was three, and he, um, so a lot of, uh, fellow former Field members have come out of the woodwork since this is book came out.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  We should tell everyone. Field is the name-
3. MDMichelle Dowd
  Oh, yes.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  ... of the group.
5. MDMichelle Dowd
  Yes. We called ourselves The Field. And one of these former m- members, who I won't name, um, I hadn't seen, I didn't, I didn't recognize him at all. I just hadn't seen them since I was a little kid. But several of them have come out who knew my parents and, of course, knew my grandfather before I was born and then maybe knew me when I was a little, teeny girl, and they have lots of stories. Anyway, he was on one of these things we called The Trip with a capital T. And what we did on The Trip, I mean, there were different things in different years, but this one was in the early 1970s. And he was, um, you know, doing all the things you do on The Trip, but one thing they required, which my father required of us at home too, is to run every morning, first thing in the morning, which you can say there's some good things about this. But you slept together in tents and then you'd get up and you'd run and you'd have to beat your time.And my father used to time us as a kid, so like I had to beat my time every day, which is really hard to do of course (laughs) because at some point you're not gonna be able to beat your time, right? Like, you can't always get better. But at this point, um, he was 19 and he, um, was beating the time he set, and that time was i- in relation to the fastest runner. And so if the fastest guy was going really, you know, fast, you had to keep the same ratio of distance. So anyway, he didn't make his time. There were three guys who didn't make their time and they had to go through the SWAT machine. So my grandpa often made boys go through the SWAT machine. And the simple version, which was done at the actual location of the field, was you'd crawl through men's... uh, the other boys' or men's legs and every boy would spank you.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
7. MDMichelle Dowd
  I know, I know. Um-
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh my gosh.
9. MDMichelle Dowd
  (laughs) I know. They're a little... (clears throat) Well, we won't even get into all the things you could think about that. But there was a different version that was only done when the boys were separated from their parents. And so when they would go on these trips... and my dad was their original driver. He started driving, um... by the time he was 18, he was driving all around the country taking my grandfather's boys. So again, my father was not his son, he was just some dude (laughs) who like, you know, joined to this cult. And my father would drive these boys around and he would time them when they ran and did all those things. And so in this particular case, um, they did SWAT machine where you have to hold onto a fence pole and you face the fence, and then all the guys come and they hit you. So they're not just spanking you, but they're hitting you. And so he was getting kidney punches and all this stuff, and he was saying he fell to his knees and he was, he was... he almost died. He was so bruised up. And, and he, um, he was... he did not want anyone to know this story. He hasn't spoken of it because he's so ashamed that potentially someone might think, "Why didn't you fight back?" And of course I said, "But you were trained not to... you trained that you deserved this." You know?
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
11. MDMichelle Dowd
  And, and then apparently, um, one of my uncles, you know, was really worried, wanted to take him to the hospital, but couldn't or didn't because they had no insurance. And, um, this young man, who's no longer a young man, um, said that, you know, he could never tell his parents. He... and he never, to this day, ever told his parents or anyone. He and his brother have never spoken of their time in the fields. Um, it, it is like this big taboo. He got out, uh, maybe a year later, but he was... I mean, that was only one of many, many, many stories he told me. But that one just really struck me to feel ashamed of that. You know, like I, I guess for many years, I too did not tell people where I came from because you feel like you must have done something, um, weak to be a follower. And that's just not true. I mean, if, if someone gets ahold of you as a child, they can program you to think almost anything, especially if they're good at it.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, unquestionably. I mean, that's why they have child suicide bombers.
13. MDMichelle Dowd
  Yes. Yes.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. I mean, you, you can trick children and...
15. MDMichelle Dowd
  Yeah.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  It's, uh, it's understandable though that you would think somehow or another that other people would think that it's your fault. Or ignorant people would think, "Why didn't you know? Why didn't you leave?" You know, or people that-
17. MDMichelle Dowd
  Right.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  ... y- you know, never really thought about it. Never thought it through 'cause they, they haven't had to.
19. MDMichelle Dowd
  Right.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  You know?
21. MDMichelle Dowd
  The friends I went out with who... I mean, I'm calling 'em friends now, but I ha- (laughs) I hadn't seen them since I was a little girl. Um, they were saying, "I would have... of course you would drink the Kool-Aid," when people use that expression. "I would've been first in line. Would've signed up for that." I mean, that's... we all would've... and I mean that, and I was... I was born there and indoctrinated, and I would've, uh, completely taken anything that my grandfather or my parents told me was gonna kill me. I would've, you know, I would've felt that that was gonna take me to heaven quicker and everyone I knew would've done that.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  Wow.
23. MDMichelle Dowd
  And the reason you don't hear about a lot of cults, by the way, is because they didn't end up in flames or mass suicide. Um, but that doesn't mean that they didn't prey on, um, you know, dozens, sometimes hundreds or even thousands of people depending on the cult.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  I was talking to Marc Andreessen and he was explaining to me that there's still many, many active cults in California.
25. MDMichelle Dowd
  Absolutely.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  And I was like, "What? Like right now? Like people know about 'em?" "Oh yeah, they're s- they're successful." Like there's some successful cults.
27. MDMichelle Dowd
  Mm-hmm. Yeah. When I first went to-
28. JRJoe Rogan
  Is The Field still around?
29. MDMichelle Dowd
  The Field's still around. I've been told it is a completely different organization and I'm not gonna vouch one way or the other. Uh, they certainly don't have a charismatic leader like my grandfather once he died and his replacement was there and then once he died, um, I think it's become... it has not become secular. It's a very strong religious organization, but they don't have the control they used to. Because like when we were young, they, we didn't have Social Security number, there was no way to track things.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
17:04 – 20:17
Abuse, policing, and breaking bonds: engineering mistrust inside the group
1. MDMichelle Dowd
  They do pay taxes. And there was a sexual abuse, you know, uh, case that was actually prosecuted. And I think after that, which I think was 2006, I think that they had to really clean up a lot of their practices.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  When I'm hearing these stories about these boys and the abuse, I'm s- that's what I'm thinking about. I'm thinking if there's a bunch of boys and no one's allowed to get married, that- that's not a good recipe.
3. MDMichelle Dowd
  No, it's not. And the particular one that got prosecuted was, um, a young leader who was abusing 11 and 12-year-old boys-
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
5. MDMichelle Dowd
  ... sexually. Um, I say out loud, I said this to my mom, I said, "Mom, isn't it curious that no one's ever prosecuted anyone for what they did to girls?" And I was a sexual abuse victim there, and I... it was something I was so ashamed of for so long. And anyway, but there's other forms of abuse that go on. I mean, there's obviously physical abuse, but there's a lot of psychological abuse. There's a lot of ways that, uh, gets inside of you that you're worthless and that you can't trust yourself. And you can't even trust yourself with your own stories.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Hmm.
7. MDMichelle Dowd
  And I have, um, a slightly younger brother who adores you, by the way. (laughs)
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Tell him I said what's up. What's his name?
9. MDMichelle Dowd
  His name's Michael.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  What's up, Michael?
11. MDMichelle Dowd
  Yeah. Um, he... I love him to death. And he was raised, you know... we were all raised collectively, but we were also raised separate from each other. And my biological siblings, we all had different experiences because they don't let you bond. They don't, they don't want... my, um, sister who's just a little bit younger, she and I, we loved each other deeply, but we weren't allowed to speak to each other sometimes for weeks or months at a time.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh my God.
13. MDMichelle Dowd
  And they were just strongly against you forming what they would call allies. They didn't want friendships that could turn into anything that would be a little bit, hmm, tsk-... uh, probably culty, but no, uh, like anything that would form, um, a clique, they used to call it.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
15. MDMichelle Dowd
  But affection-
16. JRJoe Rogan
  Any other groups where th- another person could be in control.
17. MDMichelle Dowd
  Right. Or any-
18. JRJoe Rogan
  Or they could discuss who's in control.
19. MDMichelle Dowd
  Yes.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  And why this person should be in or out.
21. MDMichelle Dowd
  Or any loyalty to anyone else other than the primary leader.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  Phew.
23. MDMichelle Dowd
  There's a lot of ways that this, that you can indoctrinate people and make them police themselves.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  Mmm. Oh, sure, that's what North Korea does.
25. MDMichelle Dowd
  Yeah, yeah.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  North Korea gets everybody to rat on everybody else.
27. MDMichelle Dowd
  Oh, yeah.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  You know?
29. MDMichelle Dowd
  That was huge where I come from.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  Mmm.
20:17 – 36:22
Recruitment model: children-only intake, merit-based inner circles, and lifelong commitment
1. MDMichelle Dowd
  So I can't vouch to that. I will say that the unusual thing about the field is you have to join as a child.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh.
3. MDMichelle Dowd
  There are no adults who join. You, they-
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Really?
5. MDMichelle Dowd
  It's kind of like a pyramid scheme when you're, um, most people join when they're five or six, and they are indoctrinated, and then they play sports. Like, so for example, they play tackle football at age five, and so they teach everyone how to, you know, um, play game, but it's only the people who are really good at the game that they continue to court, I would say. Uh, you could call them groom, whatever. But it's, there's a lot more kids there than, um, will ever s- get into the inner circles. And it's a little like the mob or something, like I was born in the inner circle, but there are plenty of people who came out of that cult who honestly weren't harmed by it because they got out young.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Mmm.
7. MDMichelle Dowd
  So as long as you get out by the age of 12, you're probably okay. Um, but they don't keep you unless you're really fully indoctrinated. And most of the people who stay really don't have a family to go back to, and they separate you from your family. And so they do more and more separation as you become a teenager. By the time you're 18, you're signing a commitment for life form.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Jesus. S-
9. MDMichelle Dowd
  And I'm not saying that's happening now, but that was 100% happened, not during my, not just during my era, but all the decades prior to me.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  So it's not just a cult, but it's like, it's got a, sort of a meritocracy built into it.
11. MDMichelle Dowd
  (laughs) Yeah, but I think a lot of cults have that.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Really?
13. MDMichelle Dowd
  I think so.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah?
15. MDMichelle Dowd
  Yeah. I mean, you have to have something to strive for.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  S- But they kick people out that don't line up enough?
17. MDMichelle Dowd
  Yeah, um, so cults in general kick people out. In fact, they want you to believe that staying is hard and that you have to work hard to stay. I think the misconception is-
18. JRJoe Rogan
  Mmm.
19. MDMichelle Dowd
  ... that they're trying to get you in. Sure, they're seducing you in some way, there's some sort of calling card, whether it's a pamphlet or something else, but once you're there-
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Yoga class?
21. MDMichelle Dowd
  Do I have what?
22. JRJoe Rogan
  No, I said yoga class.
23. MDMichelle Dowd
  Yeah, exactly. (laughs)
24. JRJoe Rogan
  That's what that guy did.
25. MDMichelle Dowd
  Exactly. Yeah. Dancing, you know. But whatever brings you in, but then after that, it's like you're the strong one, you're the special one for choosing to stay.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Mmm.
27. MDMichelle Dowd
  In this particular cult, they always would say, "There's 20 of you in this room. 19 of you will fall away. There's only one of you who"-
28. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, boy.
29. MDMichelle Dowd
  ... you know, "will make it into the army of God."
30. JRJoe Rogan
  Geez. It's like the Navy SEALs of cults.
36:22 – 42:39
Scripture as control: reading the Bible vs being told what it ‘means’
1. MDMichelle Dowd
  But so one of the things that a lot of people who have read the Bible, or they have read a portion of the Bible is-
2. JRJoe Rogan
  I definitely don't think I read the whole thing.
3. MDMichelle Dowd
  Well, yeah, that's the thing is not very many people do, and that's why I asked. Because a lot of it is, is (claps hands) kinda tedious history, and there's a lot of he begats, and there's a whole line, you know, of Christ, all the ancestors, and the o- the whole delineation of all that. And, um, where I come from, e- we were encouraged to read, like, a verse of the Bible, but they would always tell you what it meant.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
5. MDMichelle Dowd
  And so I kind of went against... I used this little penlight, and, like, did it, like, late at night. But I read the whole thing cover to cover when I was eight. And if you read, like, every single book in order, you start to find that there's a lot of really beautiful, beautiful, beautiful, you know, places in the Bible, but there's a lot of stuff that's really violent.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
7. MDMichelle Dowd
  And then there's a lot of stuff that contradicts itself, and it's because it was written in different time periods, by different authors, in different languages, and it also has historical context. And so generally there's a lot of stuff that people leave out when they teach the Bible, because it's really hard to explain.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Like what stuff?
9. MDMichelle Dowd
  (smacks lips) Well, there's, um... For example, (laughs) I mean, this one's taught a little bit, but David, King David-
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
11. MDMichelle Dowd
  I'm sure you've heard of him, like as of David and Goliath.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
13. MDMichelle Dowd
  But then he became a powerful king, and he saw this woman who... This woman is often talked about, Bathsheba. He sees her bathing on a roof. And where we came from, we were taught, like, she shouldn't have been bathing on the roof. Now, I don't-
14. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
15. MDMichelle Dowd
  (laughs) Right?
16. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
17. MDMichelle Dowd
  Anyway, he, (laughs) he demands that she come to him, and he-... She is the wife of a soldier of his named Uriah, a top soldier. And he commands her to lie with him, and she becomes pregnant. And then King David, who is the same guy who had the slingshot of David and Goliath-
18. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
19. MDMichelle Dowd
  ... decides that he's got to figure out how to get her husband back so that her husband can go sleep with her. And her husband won't do it, because he's loyal to the army. And he's, he comes back, but he sleeps, like, at the, the floor of the castle, you know, trying to-
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Wait a minute. He's trying to get the husband to go back with the wife 'cause-
21. MDMichelle Dowd
  So that she... The pregnancy will seem like it's his.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, boy.
23. MDMichelle Dowd
  Yeah. So he-
24. JRJoe Rogan
  In the Bible?
25. MDMichelle Dowd
  In the Bible.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Dirty David.
27. MDMichelle Dowd
  Yeah, exactly. And it doesn't even end there. So Uriah won't do it, 'cause Uriah is loyal to David.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, boy.
29. MDMichelle Dowd
  And so then David sends him to the front lines to have him be killed.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, boy.
42:39 – 1:08:14
Apocrypha, Lilith, and the politics of canon: what gets left out—and why
1. JRJoe Rogan
  That there was a woman before Eve.
2. MDMichelle Dowd
  Depending on who you ask (laughs) .
3. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. So what-
4. MDMichelle Dowd
  Mm-hmm.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  ... what was that one?
6. MDMichelle Dowd
  Well, that's not in the 66 books of the Bible that most people are taught in the Protestant tradition, or the 69 or whatever in the Catholic tradition. Um, that's part of the Apocrypha. So, they are- these are books of the Bible that didn't make it into, you know, Christianity as such that we-
7. JRJoe Rogan
  The editor's cut (laughs) .
8. MDMichelle Dowd
  ... call it today. Yeah, it was an editor's cut, exactly.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
10. MDMichelle Dowd
  So, that's not considered the word of God, what you're reading. That is considered... Or what you heard.
11. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm.
12. MDMichelle Dowd
  It's like word on the street.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  Word on the street.
14. MDMichelle Dowd
  Yeah, which-
15. JRJoe Rogan
  Heard on the internet, but yeah (laughs) .
16. MDMichelle Dowd
  (laughs) Okay. That's a street these days.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, it is.
18. MDMichelle Dowd
  (laughs)
19. JRJoe Rogan
  It's- it's the best street.
20. MDMichelle Dowd
  Yeah, which is not to say it's not true. I- I-
21. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
22. MDMichelle Dowd
  I don't know the truth. So, I'm a yoga teacher among other things, and one thing that I say all the time when I'm teaching, which is really common thing as a yoga teacher to say is, "Whatever I am giving you right now is, um, a suggestion." So, listen to your body, do what's great for you. If this doesn't feel right to you (laughs) , please don't do it. Um, and then you offer modifications, et cetera. And what high-control religion does... And I'm not saying all religion, I'm saying the culture religion, doesn't give you the option of listening to your body or opting out of anything.
23. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm.
24. MDMichelle Dowd
  This is the interpretation of the word of God.
25. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm.
26. MDMichelle Dowd
  And the one thing I will say is I don't know why Tamar did what she did or why Onan did what he did. You know, I- I don't know whether or not (laughs) the stories were transcribed accurately or not. Even if they were, like I... That is a different culture, right? And it was- I'm not- I wasn't there.
27. JRJoe Rogan
  We don't even know if O.J. did it.
28. MDMichelle Dowd
  (laughs) Right, so how are you gonna know what happened to David and Bathsheba and-
29. JRJoe Rogan
  I mean, we're pretty sure he did it (laughs) .
30. MDMichelle Dowd
  (laughs) Well...
1:08:14 – 1:11:27
Cosmic humility: stars, light pollution, and nature as spiritual grounding
1. JRJoe Rogan
  Well, I think that's one of the things that's really screwed up human beings, and, uh, I don't think in any small way, is light pollution. I think, uh, our inability to see that we are in this celestial, majestic cosmos, this thing. It's not just black with a few bright lights. The whole thing is lit up and it's the most magnificent thing you could ever see, but we sacrifice it almost for everyone that lives in cities. If you, if you live in cities and don't go anywhere and see it, you sacrifice a humbling spiritual experience of just staring at the stars, and I think it, it's... I think it's, uh, spiritual poisoning. It's like, um, just like if you have vitamin deficiencies. I think you have a spiritual deficiency, just a natural, universal, spiritual deficiency from not seeing the stars. I think it puts our, puts our, our place in the universe in perspective like nothing else can, 'cause it's there. It's real. It's not a concept. It's not something that you have to use a microscope or a telescope to see. It's right in front of you, and it's absolutely spectacular. On a clear night in the mountains where there's no light pollution and you see the stars, you're just like, "Wow."
2. MDMichelle Dowd
  Yeah.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  "Is that up there every night?"
4. MDMichelle Dowd
  Did you... You used to go to Joshua Tree when you lived around LA?
5. JRJoe Rogan
  No, I didn't.
6. MDMichelle Dowd
  Oh. So Joshua Tree is still so magical for that reason because there's no lights.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  Mmm. I've heard. I've heard it's incredible out there.
8. MDMichelle Dowd
  Yeah, it's not too far where, from where I am, and, and when I feel that I need to (laughs) commune with something greater than myself, you just go there and you just lay down and look at the stars.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  Light pollution is spiritual poisoning.
10. MDMichelle Dowd
  Agreed.
11. JRJoe Rogan
  It really is. And it's, it's a big factor, I think, in how lost we are, a- and how d- d- it's... You're, we're not, like, consistently humbled every night.
12. MDMichelle Dowd
  Yeah.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  By the majesty of the stars. If we were consistently humbled every night, I think we'd be, generally be, like, you could s- tone people down a little bit.
14. MDMichelle Dowd
  Hmm. There's something, um, really healing about looking at the stars, and there's also the ability to literally not be lost if you know how to read the stars, right?
15. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
16. MDMichelle Dowd
  So that is something I was trained by my uncle who was, you know, somewhat of an astronomer. But to look at the stars and to always know where you are, and if you know how to read the stars, you can never be lost.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  Mmm, so you could, like, navigate with the stars? Like, if you were in a boat?