Joe Rogan Experience #2166 - Enhanced Games

1. 0:00 – 1:58

   Enhanced Games origin story: widespread doping and athletes not getting paid

   1. CAChristian Angermayer0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music plays) Gentlemen, good to see you.

   3. ADDr. Aron D’Souza0:13

      Good to see you.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Please introduce yourselves.

   5. ADDr. Aron D’Souza0:16

      Uh, I'm Dr. Aaron de Souza, president of the Enhanced Games. And I'm Christian Angermayer, co-founder of the Enhanced Games.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:22

      And, uh, this is a very exciting idea. And how did this come about? What, what was the impetus behind this?

   7. ADDr. Aron D’Souza0:30

      I've been studying the Olympics and the Olympic movement my en- entire life. You know, I'm 39 years old. When I was a undergraduate at university, it was just after the Sydney Olympics and, you know, it was always something that inspired me. And I thought to myself, you know... I l- I learned some key statistics. 44% of Olympians admit to using banned performance-enhancing drugs within the last year, according to research commissioned by the World Anti-Doping-

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:53

      44%.

   9. ADDr. Aron D’Souza0:54

      44%.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:55

       And the other, you know, probably lying.

   11. ADDr. Aron D’Souza0:57

       Are losing. (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:59

       (laughs)

   13. ADDr. Aron D’Souza0:59

       Exactly. Uh, and, and so, you know, and then I learned that the average American Olympian only earns thir- $30,000 a year. And I thought to myself, "There's something really wrong in the system." And instead of, you know, trying to reform it, let's take a blank slate, uh, slate of paper and invent the third Olympiad from scratch.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:19

       Mm. Well, the Olympics is kind of a scam because it generates billions of dollars in revenue and the people that are there to perform make almost none of that.

   15. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:30

       That's correct. The i- actually the International Olympic Committee doesn't pay any of the athletes, uh, in... Incidentally, they may get some money in sponsorship or from their National Olympic Committee-

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:39

       Yeah.

   17. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:40

       ... but ultimately, the billions in dollar- billions of dollars in revenue come into the Olympics and none of that goes to the athletes. It gets wasted building stadiums. It gets wasted paying officials. And we thought there was a way to do a better, more honest model that inspires us to believe in the future of science and technology in the 21st century.

2. 1:58 – 3:28

   De-nationalizing competition and keeping politics out of sport

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:58

      And you could do apolitically too if you chose to.

   2. ADDr. Aron D’Souza2:02

      Uh-

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:02

      You know, are you, are you guys doing it by nation or are you doing it just, like, human beings?

   4. ADDr. Aron D’Souza2:07

      Human beings. Uh-

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:08

      Better.

   6. ADDr. Aron D’Souza2:09

      I th- yeah. I think the era of nationalism, uh, is, is over, right? Look at the Eurovision Song Competition recently. Um-

   7. JRJoe Rogan2:15

      What is that? (laughs)

   8. ADDr. Aron D’Souza2:16

      Oh, it was when, you know, Israel was performing and there were huge protests out front of the competition. It's a very Eu-

   9. JRJoe Rogan2:23

      What was the competition?

   10. ADDr. Aron D’Souza2:24

       It's a very European thing. It's called European Song Contest. I'm European.

   11. JRJoe Rogan2:27

       Song Contest.

   12. ADDr. Aron D’Souza2:28

       A song contest.

   13. JRJoe Rogan2:29

       Oh, Song Contest. Okay.

   14. ADDr. Aron D’Souza2:29

       Yes. It's every country, every year, makes a very cheesy song.

   15. JRJoe Rogan2:33

       Oh, God. (laughs)

   16. ADDr. Aron D’Souza2:34

       And I actually like it.

   17. JRJoe Rogan2:35

       (laughs)

   18. ADDr. Aron D’Souza2:37

       So let's, uh, yes. (laughs) Let's not go there. I'm kind of a fan, um, being German, um, it's a big thing in Europe. But unfortunately, it's g- it was super fun and campy. There's actually a Netflix movie about it. Like, not a documentary, but a fun movie about it.

   19. JRJoe Rogan2:51

       Is this it right here, Jamie?

   20. ADDr. Aron D’Souza2:53

       Uh, well that is one of the winners, yes.

   21. JRJoe Rogan2:54

       Most, 10 recent winners of the Eurovision-

   22. ADDr. Aron D’Souza2:55

       Yes. Yeah.

   23. CAChristian Angermayer2:55

       Oh, God yeah. (laughs)

   24. ADDr. Aron D’Souza2:56

       And she's amazing. She's amazing. It's Loreen.

   25. JRJoe Rogan2:59

       "She's amazing." Okay.

   26. ADDr. Aron D’Souza3:01

       Uh, yeah. It's very catchy songs. I don't know what your song-

   27. JRJoe Rogan3:03

       She's crawling around with her butt up in the air.

   28. ADDr. Aron D’Souza3:05

       Well, it's very campy. (laughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan3:07

       I guess.

   30. ADDr. Aron D’Souza3:08

       Yes. But there is even a cool Netflix movie about it. But long story short, unfortunately, this was the first year where it became really political, which I think music shouldn't be. Yeah.
3. 3:28 – 4:37

   Doping is already everywhere: Icarus, state programs, and hypocrisy

   1. JRJoe Rogan3:28

      Yeah. We- Yeah. It's just so many countries use it as a political tool, you know. Uh, and they g- they cheat. Like, I'm, I'm sure you guys have seen Icarus, right?

   2. ADDr. Aron D’Souza3:39

      Oh yeah. I was with Bryan Fogel a couple of days ago.

   3. JRJoe Rogan3:41

      He's great. And that documentary is amazing. And the, the, what it, I mean, what incredible, like, circumstances, like the way it all played out, where he's in the middle of doing this documentary about doing a race naturally and then doing a race enhanced. And the guy he contacts in the middle of all the Sochi Olympics crap, that guy winds up fleeing the country, spilling the beans-

   4. ADDr. Aron D’Souza4:03

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan4:04

      ... and now he's hiding. He's-

   6. ADDr. Aron D’Souza4:05

      He's in witness protection, yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan4:06

      Yeah. Still, in this country, hiding from Russian killers.

   8. ADDr. Aron D’Souza4:11

      Yeah. And that's right. And I think, you know, the reality is that performance enhancements are everywhere. Uh, 6.3% of men, um, in the Western world have used anabolic steroids at some point in their life. 75% of men who regularly go to the gym are interested in using steroids. And so instead of doing it underground, in secret, let's do it out in the open with clinical supervision and, and, and safety.

4. 4:37 – 9:21

   Legal vs banned: supplement landmines and why athletes get popped

   1. JRJoe Rogan4:37

      But what is, what are the legal ramifications of this? Because, uh, we were talking about this in the pod- we were talking about the different drug schedules on the podcast yesterday. And steroids are scheduled, right? It's like Schedule III.

   2. ADDr. Aron D’Souza4:52

      It's a Sc- yeah. It's a Schedule III substance in the United States. There are 23 countries where steroids, anabolics are legal, including in the United Kingdom for personal use. And so let's first distinguish between what is legal and what is banned. So in Olympic competition they always say, "Oh, these drugs are illegal." But actually, they're, they're banned in Olympic competition. So-

   3. JRJoe Rogan5:13

      'Cause there's a lot of things that are, you know, like peptides and things along those lines that are illegal in the Olympics.

   4. ADDr. Aron D’Souza5:19

      That are banned in the Olympics, but they're not banned in Schedule Substances.

   5. JRJoe Rogan5:21

      Yeah. Banned Schedule Substances.

   6. ADDr. Aron D’Souza5:21

      Yeah. It's really important because it means the Olympics decided as a, as a sort of private organization, "We don't want that."

   7. JRJoe Rogan5:28

      Right.

   8. ADDr. Aron D’Souza5:28

      "But you can take it."

   9. JRJoe Rogan5:29

      Right.

   10. ADDr. Aron D’Souza5:29

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan5:30

       So legally you can take it.

   12. ADDr. Aron D’Souza5:31

       So like TRT, for example, is a perfectly legal substance. It's FDA approved. It's delivered under clinical supervision. But if you used it, you would be banned from Olympic competition.

   13. JRJoe Rogan5:41

       Right.

   14. ADDr. Aron D’Souza5:41

       Right. So the vast majority of compounds that are banned by the World Anti-Doping Agency are actually perfectly legal.

   15. JRJoe Rogan5:47

       Mm. He, you know, the UFC had a guy that accidentally took something that had DHEA in it.

   16. ADDr. Aron D’Souza5:53

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan5:54

       A real high level guy, Khalil Rountree, and he was supposed to be fighting Jamal Hill, uh, in three weeks. And b- he found out that there was DHEA in it. He informed the UFC, told them. And DHEA isn't even performance-enhancing.

   18. ADDr. Aron D’Souza6:09

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan6:10

       And they banned him for two months. So he had a two months... And so he missed out on, like, the biggest opportunity-

   20. ADDr. Aron D’Souza6:14

       It's, it's-

   21. JRJoe Rogan6:14

       ... of his career.

   22. ADDr. Aron D’Souza6:15

       So if you go into your local GNC-... 25% of the goods will contain substances that are banned by the World Anti-Doping Agency.

   23. JRJoe Rogan6:23

       25%?

   24. ADDr. Aron D’Souza6:23

       Yeah. So these are just off the shelf, you know.

   25. JRJoe Rogan6:25

       Right.

   26. ADDr. Aron D’Souza6:25

       This is not black market. This is what you can buy in your local shop, mall.

   27. JRJoe Rogan6:28

       And then, of course, there's tainted supplements, which is a real problem, because a lot of these supplements, they use, uh, another party that puts them together for them, generally in other countries and a lot of them in China. And these people are also making different things with these vats. They don't clean them properly, and then they mix the new stuff in it and you easily get chem contamination. It happens all the time.

   28. ADDr. Aron D’Souza6:49

       Exactly. And well, that's the excuse that the Chinese government used about the 23 swimmers. Are you aware of this situation?

   29. JRJoe Rogan6:54

       Which... What's this?

   30. ADDr. Aron D’Souza6:56

       So 23 Chinese swimmers tested positive TMZ, which is a heart medication, and they claimed that this was because of a-
5. 9:21 – 11:38

   From drug testing to health testing: safety framework and informed consent

   1. ADDr. Aron D’Souza9:21

      Yeah. And so the solution is not to do, um, drug testing, it's to do health testing. Like we want to make sure that our athletes are healthy and safe to compete. So we do cardiac screenings, MRIs, blood work, um, to measure their biomarkers to ensure that they're within healthy ranges. And that's the core difference, right? The drug testing apparatus at the Olympics is about fairness and competition. It's not about the health and safety of athletes.

   2. JRJoe Rogan9:45

      Here's the question. If you open up the gates and say you're allowed to take whatever substances you want at whatever levels you want in order to compete at your very best, how close to redlining does a person get? You know, especially if you're involved in something that requires strength and explosive energy like we've had f-... One of the things... The UFC at one point in time had, uh, testosterone use exemptions. And you were allowed to get those if your testosterone was at a low enough level. The problem with that was that was not thought out at all.

   3. ADDr. Aron D’Souza10:20

      You can, you can beat that test in a heartbeat. Just stay up all night-

   4. JRJoe Rogan10:22

      Stay up all night, eat 15 cheeseburgers, and jerk off three times, and you're good. (laughs)

   5. ADDr. Aron D’Souza10:29

      (laughs) You know, you're gonna be, you're gonna be at like 200. Ugh. Like, "Oh my God, you're sick, Bob." (laughs)

   6. CAChristian Angermayer10:35

      (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan10:35

      But it's j-... Also, there's another problem, is that people that have a history of anabolic steroid use, generally they've wrecked their endocrine system.

   8. ADDr. Aron D’Souza10:44

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan10:45

      And particularly back in the day, the early days of MMA was all enhanced. And if you go and watch Pride, for instance, like Pride, which was the big show in Japan, it was this enormous organization in Japan that kind of fell apart because the Yakuza was involved with it-

   10. ADDr. Aron D’Souza11:03

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan11:03

       ... and they went bankrupt. There's a lot of, a lot of craziness involved. But at one point in time, they were selling out like these 90,000-seat arenas in Tokyo. It was nuts.

   12. ADDr. Aron D’Souza11:13

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan11:14

       And everybody looked like a superhero. I mean, just fucking jacked, just giant, jacked guys beating the shit out of each other. And everybody who went over there will tell you, like the contract literally specifically stated in capital letters, "We do not test for steroids." They will encourage you to do steroids over there. They want you to look good.

   14. ADDr. Aron D’Souza11:34

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan11:34

       They want you to fight at your best. Like we don't care what you take, just go over there and go ham.

6. 11:38 – 14:52

   Fairness as transparency: two-track future (natural Olympics vs enhanced league)

   1. ADDr. Aron D’Souza11:38

      But it comes down to a fundamental philosophical question. Shouldn't an individual with free and informed consent, an adult, be able to make choices about their own body?

   2. JRJoe Rogan11:49

      They should. But the question is, when is it not fair, right?

   3. CAChristian Angermayer11:53

      But it's the epitome of fairness if it's very transparent.

   4. JRJoe Rogan11:57

      Right.

   5. CAChristian Angermayer11:57

      What is unfair... Think about it like you winning silver in the current Olympics. And I talked to so many athletes, they kind of know who's cheating or not. Because if you are very like into sports, you know what is kind of, let's call it unnatural or enhanced.

   6. JRJoe Rogan12:11

      Right.

   7. CAChristian Angermayer12:12

      So... But they cannot say it. There is a lot of politics, as you say, whatever.

   8. JRJoe Rogan12:15

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CAChristian Angermayer12:15

      So you win silver, you stand next to the person who won gold, and you have a deep hunch that this person is enhanced.

   10. JRJoe Rogan12:23

       Right.

   11. CAChristian Angermayer12:23

       That is the worst-

   12. JRJoe Rogan12:25

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CAChristian Angermayer12:25

       ... because you're betrayed of your performance, uh, because the people on the screen cannot contextualize it.

   14. JRJoe Rogan12:31

       Right.

   15. CAChristian Angermayer12:31

       What we are saying is like... By the way, we're also not anti-Olympics. We're like, the Olympics should be really clean. Then it's interesting because then I have a, a framework I can judge performance. But in our case-... people will know that people take enhancements. We actually will endorse people to even say what they're doing because it's completely open.

   16. JRJoe Rogan12:49

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CAChristian Angermayer12:50

       And then again, you can contextualize, so both is about either zero or completely free slate in the medical framework is the, is the real definition of fairness.

   18. ADDr. Aron D’Souza12:59

       And, and from 1896 until 1992, the Olympics banned professional athletes from competing. And so the Olympics were amateur and there were professional sports leagues elsewhere. And I think the same thing is gonna happen in the 21st century. The Olympics are going to be the natural sports competition where we're gonna see what the best of a human 1.0 can do. And at the Enhanced Games, there will be what can the best unleashed human, superhuman can do.

   19. JRJoe Rogan13:25

       But here's the question. If you guys are successful, what, what athlete would want... If you guys are successful and it becomes a huge household name and people watch it and it becomes exciting w- and you make money, what athletes are gonna wanna do the Olympics for free, and get a microscope up your ass and people constantly testing you for this and that, and knowing that other countries are probably pulling off some shenanigans like China allegedly did?

   20. CAChristian Angermayer13:55

       Not our problem-

   21. JRJoe Rogan13:56

       (laughs)

   22. ADDr. Aron D’Souza13:56

       (laughs)

   23. CAChristian Angermayer13:56

       ... but I agree with... (laughs) Yeah. I agree with you. Like, by the way, the same question is-

   24. JRJoe Rogan14:00

       It's a good answer. (laughs) Not our problem.

   25. CAChristian Angermayer14:01

       Not our problem.

   26. JRJoe Rogan14:02

       (laughs)

   27. CAChristian Angermayer14:02

       Like, but I don't wanna, I don't wanna not wish them well. Like, it's just, like, I think we're gonna do better. And, and the other thing is, by the way, what I deeply believe, humans are wired, we want the best and we wanna also watch the best.

   28. JRJoe Rogan14:12

       Yes.

   29. CAChristian Angermayer14:13

       Like, you're not gonna watch something where the best natural player... No, you wanna see the best absolute player, even if this player or person is enhanced. Like, but again, the future will tell and the consumer will tell, but we are super confident.

   30. ADDr. Aron D’Souza14:26

       But it's like the, the rise of the UFC. So the UFC was unbridled by the traditional rules of boxing and other combat sports. And, you know, the simple premise that Rorion Gracie had was how do we find the very best fighter?
7. 14:52 – 22:18

   Recruiting elite athletes: incentives, world-record bounties, and the Ridley Scott doc

   1. JRJoe Rogan14:52

      So how do you get... Well, it's, there, there's a lot of factors, right? You need people that have already competed, you know, you know, you don't wanna get someone who's just starting out at a sport, right? So you have people that have a, a deep history in the sport where they wanna, and they can, they're capable of competing at an elite level. And then if they're gonna do your games, they have to kind of make this decision 'cause they're never gonna be able in the Olympics again after that, right?

   2. ADDr. Aron D’Souza15:17

      Well, th- they actually could go back to the Olympic system.

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:19

      But they would get so tested. And if they do, I mean, if they do start taking testosterone, do start taking a bunch of other things, it's gonna inhibit their natural ability to produce hormones.

   4. CAChristian Angermayer15:32

      Technically, most likely it comes back, but I would say it's a decision of the Olympics and other sports leagues, how they wanna handle athletes who also at a certain time have participated in our games. Maybe they say there is a cooling off period. So I d- it's not that we will exclude them going back, it might be that other sports leagues say, "Look, once, if you're in the Enhanced Games, you can't come back to us."

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:54

      Mm-hmm.

   6. ADDr. Aron D’Souza15:54

      And, and it's fundamentally an economic question too. So your average Olympian is earning $30,000 a year. You know, the best performing track and field athletes might be making couple 100,000 bucks a year. Um, and, you know, we're offering a million dollar prize for, to break significant world records. And basically what I'm saying-

   7. JRJoe Rogan16:10

      So it's a million dollars just to break the world record.

   8. ADDr. Aron D’Souza16:13

      Yeah, so a mill- a million bucks to break 100 meter world record on the track, a million bucks to break the 50 meter freestyle world record in the pool.

   9. JRJoe Rogan16:21

      So the qu- the question is like, how can you ensure that you're gonna get elite level athletes that are capable of performing at, like, an Olympic level? And they're gonna, they're, they'll be risking... It's a big, it's a significant risk to them because they'll be openly admitting they're part of the Enhanced Games, they're openly admitting that they're taking these substances in order to, to compete at this level, and they don't know if you guys are gonna be around, like-

   10. ADDr. Aron D’Souza16:47

       Well, so number one, you don't have to take enhancements to be at the Enhanced Games. You can just be-

   11. JRJoe Rogan16:51

       You can just be a regular person with awesome genes.

   12. ADDr. Aron D’Souza16:52

       ... a regular person with awesome genes. Yeah, yeah. You could say, "Hey, I'm, I'm-"

   13. JRJoe Rogan16:54

       Yeah.

   14. ADDr. Aron D’Souza16:55

       "... I won the genetic lottery."

   15. JRJoe Rogan16:56

       Mm-hmm.

   16. ADDr. Aron D’Souza16:56

       Right? And I think I can beat all the enhanced athletes and make for great television. Right?

   17. JRJoe Rogan17:00

       Yeah, that's fun too, right?

   18. ADDr. Aron D’Souza17:02

       Yeah. And so, you know, if you're, if y- if you've believed you've won the genetic lottery and you think you can show up and break a world record and get a million bucks, they'll, they'll come and do it.

   19. JRJoe Rogan17:11

       Mm-hmm.

   20. ADDr. Aron D’Souza17:11

       Right? And do it naturally. Uh, and then some athletes say, "You know, I did not win the genetic lottery, and I want the chance to be the Neil Armstrong of our generation." To, to, to-

   21. JRJoe Rogan17:21

       (laughs)

   22. ADDr. Aron D’Souza17:21

       ... to, to... You know, this is how I think of it. I think we're, we're building the Apollo mission for the 21st century. Uh, you know, what did the Apollo mission do? It showed us that we were so much more capable as a human species, right? We, we hit a new threshold going to the moon using science and technology to-

   23. JRJoe Rogan17:37

       Hm.

   24. ADDr. Aron D’Souza17:37

       ... overcome our limits. This is exactly what the Enhanced Games is about.

   25. JRJoe Rogan17:41

       Sort of, you're not going to the moon. Let's be serious.

   26. ADDr. Aron D’Souza17:44

       (laughs)

   27. CAChristian Angermayer17:44

       It's gonna be cool. Like-

   28. JRJoe Rogan17:45

       Yeah. (laughs)

   29. CAChristian Angermayer17:45

       ... 3:45.

   30. ADDr. Aron D’Souza17:45

       (laughs)
8. 22:18 – 29:30

   Which sports make the cut: track, swimming, combat, gymnastics, strength

   1. JRJoe Rogan22:18

      Yeah. That makes sense. Um, what are the sports that you guys are going to showcase, and will you have combat sports?

   2. ADDr. Aron D’Souza22:26

      Yeah, so there are five key sports: track, swimming, combat, gymnastics, and strength.

   3. JRJoe Rogan22:34

      And for combat sports, you can have boxing, wrestling. What are you gonna have?

   4. ADDr. Aron D’Souza22:38

      So, boxing and MMA are definitely in.

   5. JRJoe Rogan22:41

      MMA?

   6. ADDr. Aron D’Souza22:42

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan22:43

      Really?

   8. ADDr. Aron D’Souza22:43

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan22:45

      Hmm. That's interesting. So, MMA, um, if you're gonna have people being enhanced in MMA, that will severely limit their ability to compete in other organizations.

   10. ADDr. Aron D’Souza22:58

       Fair.

   11. JRJoe Rogan22:59

       So, how are you gonna get high-level fighters that are not gonna compete in Bellator or not gonna compete in the UFC, or how are you gonna do that?

   12. ADDr. Aron D’Souza23:08

       Well, I think the entire MMA community is clearly moving away from the dr- the traditional drug testing apparatus, and look at what UFC has done, moving away from USADA.

   13. JRJoe Rogan23:16

       No, no, they just moved to drug-free sport-

   14. ADDr. Aron D’Souza23:19

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan23:19

       ... which is just a better organization, does the exact same thing. They're doing the exact same things. The exact same things are banned, including peptides like BPC-157, which people argued, they're like, "This is ridiculous. This shouldn't be legal." But what they said is the problem is state athletic commissions test for BPC-157, and as long as they test, some of them do at least-

   16. ADDr. Aron D’Souza23:39

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan23:39

       ... as long as they deem it illegal, we have to-

   18. ADDr. Aron D’Souza23:42

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JRJoe Rogan23:42

       ... make it illegal.

   20. ADDr. Aron D’Souza23:43

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan23:43

       Even though, yeah, I mean, soft tissue injuries, it's really great for recovery.

   22. ADDr. Aron D’Souza23:47

       Yeah, and so, you know, in terms of athlete recruitment, there's such a wide pipeline. You know, the, the, the difference in terms of, um, with, uh, MMA and combat sports is there's no objective world records.

   23. JRJoe Rogan23:59

       Mm-hmm.

   24. ADDr. Aron D’Souza24:00

       So, you know, the, it's solving for a fame question-

   25. JRJoe Rogan24:03

       Right.

   26. ADDr. Aron D’Souza24:03

       ... not a performance question.

   27. JRJoe Rogan24:04

       Right, it's to be one of the people that does it. So, have you talked to athletes about that, combat sports athletes?

   28. ADDr. Aron D’Souza24:11

       We've had, uh, in, in the casting call that we did, we had, uh, maybe about 15% of the athletes were in the, uh, combat disciplines-

   29. JRJoe Rogan24:19

       Real?

   30. ADDr. Aron D’Souza24:19

       ... um, including ex-UFC athletes, yeah.
9. 29:30 – 33:12

   Combat sports ethics and recovery: does enhancement increase danger or safety?

   1. JRJoe Rogan29:30

      Hmm. The only worry that pe- I think people would have is that giving someone some s- substances would allow them to hurt someone more. It's like, it's different, and I- I know what you're saying, like the other person gets them too, and so... But it's a discussion, right? It's... If someone runs faster because you gave them something, like, no one's getting hurt there, you know? Maybe reputations are getting hurt, whatever, but if- if you give someone something and it allows someone to beat someone more, you know...

   2. CAChristian Angermayer30:04

      But isn't that the wrong moral discussion because then we shouldn't-

   3. JRJoe Rogan30:07

      Pull up to that mic real quick.

   4. CAChristian Angermayer30:08

      ... then we sh- Isn't it the wrong discussion because we shouldn't then do boxing if we-

   5. JRJoe Rogan30:13

      Right.

   6. CAChristian Angermayer30:13

      ... don't want to allow people to hurt other people? Let's be-

   7. JRJoe Rogan30:15

      Well, ultimately, that's the real discussion, right?

   8. CAChristian Angermayer30:16

      That's real- exactly.

   9. JRJoe Rogan30:17

      Yeah.

   10. CAChristian Angermayer30:17

       But I think a lot of discussions are always pseudo-discussions, where we can have a real discussion, should we have boxing?

   11. JRJoe Rogan30:22

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CAChristian Angermayer30:22

       But, like-

   13. JRJoe Rogan30:23

       Right.

   14. CAChristian Angermayer30:24

       ... it's the same ethical...

   15. JRJoe Rogan30:26

       Right.

   16. ADDr. Aron D’Souza30:26

       Yeah, like power slap, right?

   17. JRJoe Rogan30:27

       But d- well, the... Don't get me started.

   18. CAChristian Angermayer30:29

       Oh, my God.

   19. JRJoe Rogan30:29

       And then but the other one is that maybe it's actually safer for the athletes if they're enhanced-

   20. ADDr. Aron D’Souza30:37

       Because we cover better.

   21. JRJoe Rogan30:37

       ... because maybe they can recover better. Maybe they can take more punishment, you know? Maybe if, you know, they do get hurt in a fight, they'll recover better from the fight than they would naturally. There's a good argument there as well.

   22. ADDr. Aron D’Souza30:49

       Yeah, the- certainly what is appealing, particularly to older athletes, is reducing recovery time.

   23. JRJoe Rogan30:55

       Yes. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's a significant thing for guys just in, as they get into their 30s, if- if they're still competing as a professional, they realize, like, "I don't recover as well at 34, even though I'm still in my athletic prime in terms of ability to perform." Their ability to put in work in the gym is not quite the same, and the way they feel the next day is not quite the same.

   24. CAChristian Angermayer31:17

       ... I can tell you, I started the whole process. Like, I always, when I start a company, I wanna feel it myself, what is really ... what I'm talking about. It's not just like ... So I'm going through the enhancement process of an athlete myself.

   25. JRJoe Rogan31:29

       Mm.

   26. CAChristian Angermayer31:29

       Um, and it's unbelievable. Like, you feel 20 years younger, in like recovery, I can train every day. I wake up in the morning and don't feel stiff anymore. I'm like, "Oh, shit. This is how it felt when I was in my 20s."

   27. JRJoe Rogan31:42

       Yeah. It's really strange that that's looked down upon. (laughs)

   28. CAChristian Angermayer31:46

       Yeah. I can't really understand it. No, I can't really understand it. It's like, I think it's, it's a natural right, like you wanna be at your best at any time in your life. And it should be your decision, by the way.

   29. JRJoe Rogan31:56

       Yes.

   30. CAChristian Angermayer31:56

       What is your best? I'm not saying that people should be jacked, that this is aspirational. It should be every single person's decision.
10. 33:12 – 36:56

    Body autonomy beyond sport: anti-aging, sarcopenia, and destigmatizing anabolic use

    1. ADDr. Aron D’Souza33:12

       But, but imagine the scientific potential of all of that research ...

    2. JRJoe Rogan33:16

       Mm.

    3. ADDr. Aron D’Souza33:17

       ... if it came out into the open, in terms of anti-aging, in particular.

    4. JRJoe Rogan33:21

       Mm-hmm.

    5. ADDr. Aron D’Souza33:21

       The same compounds that allow, uh, individual athletes to run faster and jump higher are the ones that will allow us to be younger, faster, and stronger for longer. And, and, you know, I think that's a very admirable, um, aspiration. You know, look at Robert F. Kennedy Jr., you know, he's doing pull-ups when Joe Biden and Donald Trump can hardly walk up a flight of stairs.

    6. JRJoe Rogan33:43

       Yeah.

    7. ADDr. Aron D’Souza33:44

       And he's very openly enhanced.

    8. JRJoe Rogan33:46

       Yeah. Openly enhanced and works out with jeans on.

    9. ADDr. Aron D’Souza33:48

       Yeah.

    10. JRJoe Rogan33:49

        Which is odd, right? (laughs)

    11. ADDr. Aron D’Souza33:50

        (laughs) Yeah.

    12. CAChristian Angermayer33:50

        (laughs)

    13. JRJoe Rogan33:50

        The g- g- jeans thing is so weird, like, what are you doing, man?

    14. ADDr. Aron D’Souza33:52

        Yeah.

    15. JRJoe Rogan33:54

        But-

    16. CAChristian Angermayer33:54

        But also, by the way, what, what ... It's an important point, and I think some- ... A lot of people always put enhancements into just the vanity pocket, yeah? Which is, by the way, I, and I think it's a very legit pocket, because, for example, I'm doing it more for vanity. But like, if you look at older people, like sarcopenia, like a rapid muscle loss, whatever-

    17. JRJoe Rogan34:11

        Mm-hmm.

    18. CAChristian Angermayer34:11

        ... it is a problem for many people, and we take it as normal. We're like-

    19. JRJoe Rogan34:15

        Yes.

    20. CAChristian Angermayer34:15

        ... "Oh, it is normal that you're losing muscle mass." And I was like, "No, we can do something." And the life of a 70, 80-year-old will, would be completely changed if they have a functioning muscle system again.

    21. JRJoe Rogan34:28

        Yes.

    22. CAChristian Angermayer34:28

        Which is, by the way, easy to produce, but like, we're shying away, because it all got commingled in that '80s and '90s doping debate. There are extremely good anabolic steroids with a very good medical use case. Take Anavar, yeah, or these kind of compounds, like they are very good for older people with muscle loss, with, uh, osteoporosis, but we don't give it to them. So, I spoke to so many doctors, it, it, they're still there, but the doctor's like, "Oh, like, I have this reputational risk giving an 80-year-old an anabolic steroid," because the word became so bad, despite they all agree this would make the life of millions of older people much more livable. By the way, small doses, but like ... yeah.

    23. JRJoe Rogan35:12

        Yes.

    24. CAChristian Angermayer35:12

        Anyway, so I'm very passionate, not just about like ... Enhance Games, we hope, will be a, a crystallization factor for a whole societal change on how we look at body autonomy, how we give, how we give d- decision back to people, again, what they wanna be with their body, with their mind, and all of that. And-

    25. JRJoe Rogan35:33

        And with the current state-of-the-art science, too, it's like, what is the point of having all this knowledge and i- uh, functional ways. There's, there's absolute ways to enhance the way your mind performs, your body performs, and to chalk it off to vanity is so crazy. Like, well, what about fashion? Should we get rid of that, too?

    26. ADDr. Aron D’Souza35:50

        Exactly. (laughs)

    27. JRJoe Rogan35:51

        Should we? (laughs)

    28. CAChristian Angermayer35:52

        No, 100%.

    29. JRJoe Rogan35:53

        What the fuck you talking about?

    30. ADDr. Aron D’Souza35:53

        Yeah.
11. 36:56 – 48:55

    Cognitive enhancement and drug-risk comparisons: modafinil and the David Nutt chart

    1. JRJoe Rogan36:56

       Well, wasn't this the reason why, um, Provigil and Nuvigil, when they first came up with those, I believe they came up with them with the idea of them being a performance-enhancing substance, but then they didn't have a way to prescribe them, so they used narcolepsy.

    2. ADDr. Aron D’Souza37:13

       Yeah, so-

    3. CAChristian Angermayer37:13

       You mean, modhef- ... there's no dep- modafinil?

    4. JRJoe Rogan37:15

       Mod- modafinil.

    5. CAChristian Angermayer37:16

       Modafinil. Yeah, I love it.

    6. JRJoe Rogan37:16

       Yeah, the, the other ... Yeah, it's, it's interesting stuff, right? Because it doesn't make you speedy.

    7. CAChristian Angermayer37:22

       Y-

    8. JRJoe Rogan37:22

       But-

    9. CAChristian Angermayer37:22

       No, it's like, I think it's like ... By the way, I always tell it at universities when I give a speak, that's the real mind or intellectual enhancement drugs-

    10. JRJoe Rogan37:29

        Yeah.

    11. CAChristian Angermayer37:29

        ... because it doesn't make you jittery, whatever. By the way-

    12. JRJoe Rogan37:32

        Do you stack it?

    13. CAChristian Angermayer37:33

        ... uh, with-

    14. JRJoe Rogan37:34

        Nootropics?

    15. CAChristian Angermayer37:36

        We, yes. We, I do a lot of things. (laughs) Yes, uh-

    16. ADDr. Aron D’Souza37:38

        (laughs)

    17. CAChristian Angermayer37:38

        But anyway, it's like-

    18. ADDr. Aron D’Souza37:39

        He's the one that's more enhanced.

    19. JRJoe Rogan37:40

        Oh, okay.

    20. ADDr. Aron D’Souza37:40

        So ask him about his stack.

    21. JRJoe Rogan37:41

        (laughs)

    22. CAChristian Angermayer37:41

        But, like, I think, again, but, but it's a good example. Like, why do we say for students or whatever, "Oh, it's bad-"

    23. JRJoe Rogan37:49

        Mm-hmm.

    24. CAChristian Angermayer37:49

        "... if you try to be the best?" Like, and why is a, is a substance, modafinil, which is by the way, wildly studied, which is there since decades. Every single neuroscientist in my team, in the, my biotech sector I talk to is like, "This can be taken safely in moderate amounts," like, and all of that. Why are we, like, shying away to discussing that this is a good thing? Like, I don't even understand it. Like... (laughs)

    25. JRJoe Rogan38:12

        Is there a large body of research on long-term use of-

    26. CAChristian Angermayer38:15

        Yes.

    27. JRJoe Rogan38:15

        ... modafinil? Yeah?

    28. CAChristian Angermayer38:17

        Enormous. Like, everybody, trust me, because I take it. Yeah. I, I looked at it. I-

    29. JRJoe Rogan38:21

        Are you on it right now?

    30. CAChristian Angermayer38:22

        Yes.
12. 48:55 – 1:03:03

    Psychedelics policy debate: medical-only vs personal autonomy and microdosing uncertainty

    1. JRJoe Rogan48:55

       Nothing lost. Um, th- th- what's going on with marijuana is interesting in this country, because at this point, 24 states ... Is it 24? 24 states, we talked about it yesterday. 24 states have it legal for recreational use, so it's literally half the country. And then you have more that have it available for medical use, yet the government still has it as a Schedule I. They've made moves to turn it to a Schedule III, but as of w- this discussion, it's a Schedule I drug. Which is ... You have 24 ... You have half the country, literally, in states that are saying, "You can take it here, you could buy it here, you could sell it here. We'll tax it." And the federal government is still not on board with that. And then ...... the move next would be psilocybin. So some states have decriminalized that, right? Like Portland, kind of. Portland or Oregon, I think, has done a reverse. They've- they've- they've made like a- I think they've hit the brakes, because-

    2. CAChristian Angermayer49:49

       Yes. I- I want to make a big sort of plea that psilocybin or, in general, psychedelics and cannabis should not be mixed together. People instinctively do that because it's kind of the same history. It's- it's so-called illegal drugs which now becoming in one way or the other legal again.

    3. JRJoe Rogan50:05

       Uh-huh.

    4. CAChristian Angermayer50:06

       But if I look at it, I have a very sort of strong opinion. Psychedelics are very strong substances, in a very good way. So they have a very good outcome. But if I look at human history, and you had Brian here, Muraresku, who I love.

    5. JRJoe Rogan50:19

       Yes.

    6. CAChristian Angermayer50:19

       Yeah. So if you look at Brian's work, he has shown that over 10,000 years humans have used psychedelics in a very actually rigid setting. If you think about the Cult of Demeter-

    7. JRJoe Rogan50:31

       Mm-hmm.

    8. CAChristian Angermayer50:31

       ... the Eleusinian Mysteries.

    9. JRJoe Rogan50:33

       Mm-hmm.

    10. CAChristian Angermayer50:33

        Or the Cult of Osiris. Yeah, all of these psychedelic cults, they all actually said you can just do psychedelics once or twice a year with a shaman together. It was actually forbidden by death to take the kykeon, the drink which we believe was ergot, the natural version of LSD, in the Eleusinian Mysteries outside of the very strong framework of the Eleusinian Mysteries.

    11. JRJoe Rogan50:59

        Mm-hmm.

    12. CAChristian Angermayer51:00

        So psychedelics were never consumer drugs. They were always there for enlightenment and for becoming a better human being. But the people understood that it has to be done in a certain framework to really unfold their power.

    13. JRJoe Rogan51:14

        Okay. Let-

    14. CAChristian Angermayer51:15

        So that's what I wanted... So that's why I'm really have- I mean, my personal opinion is, so psychedelics should be medically used but they should be limited. It's not consumer drugs. They should be limited to be used with a therapist together who also sh- sort of gives you a sort of a full sort of therapy session around it, and that's how they can unfold freely.

    15. JRJoe Rogan51:36

        I understand. I understand where you're coming from, but here- here's where I would say about that. First of all, two things. One, you can take psychedelics in microdoses and it's very effective. It's very helpful. And to limit people from having the ability to do that I don't think makes any sense. There's great benefits to microdosing psilocybin. A lot of people have had great benefits microdosing LSD, like tremendous benefits, and they talk about it very openly. And I think if we are going to act under the idea of body autonomy, that falls under that. Also, to say that s- marijuana is not a psychedelic, all that would say to me is you haven't taken enough or you haven't taken edibles, 'cause d- are you aware of the process of what happens when you eat, um, cannabis? You know the difference?

    16. CAChristian Angermayer52:24

        What do you mean? To- compared to psychedelics or...

    17. JRJoe Rogan52:26

        No, the difference between THC and 11-hydroxy metabolite.

    18. CAChristian Angermayer52:30

        No.

    19. JRJoe Rogan52:30

        Okay. When you eat marijuana, it doesn't, it's- it produces a completely different chemical when it gets processed by your liver, l- your liver. And it's called 11-hydroxy metabolite. 11-hydroxy metabolite is five times more psychoactive than THC. And I used to do a joke about it where I said, "And it lets you talk to dolphins."

    20. CAChristian Angermayer52:47

        (laughs) .

    21. JRJoe Rogan52:48

        Because it's very psychedelic. E- edible pot, like in high doses, is extremely psychedelic, especially if you close your eyes. Like if you lie somewhere in silent darkness and close your eyes on edible marijuana, it- it rivals a lot of different drugs. It rivals m- psilocybin, a lot of them, especially in the tank that I showed you guys.

    22. CAChristian Angermayer53:11

        Mm-hmm.

    23. JRJoe Rogan53:12

        Psychedelic drugs, you know, mushrooms, like there's a great history of people using them in those tanks. We talked about John Lilly, who took ketamine. But I know a lot of people who do high levels of edibles and they get in the tank and they have crazy psychedelic experiences. I don't think it's the- I think that's also part of the problem with people recreationally taking edibles, is you really probably shouldn't do that all the time, especially at high doses.

    24. CAChristian Angermayer53:41

        Mm-hmm.

    25. JRJoe Rogan53:41

        Because I think it causes schizophrenia, and I- I think it has in some people. I think it- it causes fragile minds to shatter. And especially if you have some underlying conditions or propensity or family history of schizophrenia, it's probably not a good idea for you. But I don't think we should just like dismiss marijuana as being different than the other drugs. It's just a drug that is more likely to be consumed microdosed.

    26. CAChristian Angermayer54:09

        Okay. So I- I just want to be mindful that we're not mixing things here. So I didn't want to oppose marijuana. I was just saying you-

    27. JRJoe Rogan54:14

        No, no, no. I didn't think you were.

    28. CAChristian Angermayer54:15

        It's something different.

    29. JRJoe Rogan54:16

        But you were talking about it the same way. You- you were opposed to talking about it the way you talk about mushrooms.

    30. CAChristian Angermayer54:21

        Well, it- it- because mushrooms are, I mean, it's technically a different mechanism of action.
13. 1:03:03 – 1:57:25

    Business model and rollout: venture funding, sponsors, media rights, and 2025 timing

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:03:03

       Now let's talk about the Enhanced Games in terms of long-term plans. Like, uh, how are you guys funded and how long can you stay open? Like if, d- do you have a long-term strategy?

    2. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:03:18

       Yes. Well, we, we've raised millions of dollars in the world's top venture capitalists, Christian included, Peter Thiel, Balaji Srinivasan. And let's, you know, we're reinventing the Olympic Games not just in terms of adding, uh, performance enhancements, adding payments to athlete, but we're also removing the core waste. So the core problem with the Olympics is that they build a dozen stadiums and then they throw them away after two weeks. It is literally the most financially wasteful exercise in human history. You know, um, hun- you know, between $30 and $100 billion it costs to put on an Olympic Games, and it is just disastrous for the host city. So by reducing the number of sports and focusing on the ones that have the highest television and social media impact, we can have a very, very low infrastructural cost and operate the whole thing profitably.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:04:07

       Right. But how, uh, d- do you have a plan as to like how long to do it?

    4. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:04:12

       Oh, this is a century long project for us.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:04:14

       So, so d'you wanna-

    6. CAChristian Angermayer1:04:16

       It's not a pop-up event, like it's gonna be forever.

    7. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:04:18

       Right.

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:04:18

       Right.

    9. CAChristian Angermayer1:04:18

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    10. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:04:18

        I understand.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:04:19

        But what if it's not successful? Like what if the first one comes out of the gate, like how are you gonna make the money? Are you gonna use sponsorships? Are you gonna charge pay-per-view?

    12. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:04:27

        So-

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:04:27

        How are you gonna do it? Are you gonna sell it to a network?

    14. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:04:29

        So, uh, number one, we will raise enough equity capital so that we can run the games for at least three years without any, uh, media rights, corporate sponsorship, or ticket sales. Of course, we will grab all those revenue drivers and that will make us a profitable endeavor. But fundamentally, we have enough equity capital to make sure this thing really works and is delivered for a long period of time.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:04:53

        So for three years-

    16. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:04:55

        We-

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:04:55

        ... you just run it till the bricks fall off?

    18. CAChristian Angermayer1:04:56

        Even if we don't. So, but what I can tell you, what I was actually a- a little bit surprised positively is like we got inbounded by big brands. We were actually calculating in the early days, we said, "Ah, it's gonna be controversial." Um, "We don't think a big," uh, whatever, uh, outdoor brand or whatever, a big, uh, sportswear brand will sponsor us in the first year. So we really, as Aaron said, we planned we're gonna be, we are venture funded and we can do it three years without those major revenues, which we obviously somewhat want to have. But then surprisingly, major brands inbounded us and said, "Can we work with you early?" Which again, showed us like we sort of hit the zeitgeist a bit-

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:05:37

        Mm.

    20. CAChristian Angermayer1:05:38

        ... uh, with the thing, so.

    21. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:05:38

        Yeah. And so in terms of brand sponsorship, so Nike, their core mythology is that the fastest people in the world wear their shoes.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:05:46

        I like how you say their core mythology.

    23. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:05:47

        Yeah, the core mythology, right?

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:05:49

        (laughs)

    25. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:05:50

        And then, uh, this is very simple. Eventually, the fastest people in the world will be at the Enhanced Games.

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:05:56

        Mm.

    27. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:05:56

        And then, and if, and if they're not wearing Nike shoes, that can undermine that $100 billion brand. And so if you're a challenger shoe company out there and you say, "Ooh, come sponsor this Enhanced Games thing," right? We can capture Nike's core mo- is it, brand is just a myth.

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:06:14

        Hmm. That's an interesting way to phrase it, the core mythology. Now when you guys, when, when is going to be the first Enhanced Games?

    29. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:06:25

        At the, uh, we're targeting for the end of 2025.

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:06:29

        And do you know where you're going to do it?

Episode duration: 2:02:37