Joe Rogan Experience #2166 - Enhanced Games

1. 0:00 – 1:58

   Enhanced Games origin story: widespread doping and athletes not getting paid

   1. CAChristian Angermayer0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music plays) Gentlemen, good to see you.

   3. ADDr. Aron D’Souza0:13

      Good to see you.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Please introduce yourselves.

   5. ADDr. Aron D’Souza0:16

      Uh, I'm Dr. Aaron de Souza, president of the Enhanced Games. And I'm Christian Angermayer, co-founder of the Enhanced Games.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:22

      And, uh, this is a very exciting idea. And how did this come about? What, what was the impetus behind this?

   7. ADDr. Aron D’Souza0:30

      I've been studying the Olympics and the Olympic movement my en- entire life. You know, I'm 39 years old. When I was a undergraduate at university, it was just after the Sydney Olympics and, you know, it was always something that inspired me. And I thought to myself, you know... I l- I learned some key statistics. 44% of Olympians admit to using banned performance-enhancing drugs within the last year, according to research commissioned by the World Anti-Doping-

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:53

      44%.

   9. ADDr. Aron D’Souza0:54

      44%.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:55

       And the other, you know, probably lying.

   11. ADDr. Aron D’Souza0:57

       Are losing. (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:59

       (laughs)

   13. ADDr. Aron D’Souza0:59

       Exactly. Uh, and, and so, you know, and then I learned that the average American Olympian only earns thir- $30,000 a year. And I thought to myself, "There's something really wrong in the system." And instead of, you know, trying to reform it, let's take a blank slate, uh, slate of paper and invent the third Olympiad from scratch.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:19

       Mm. Well, the Olympics is kind of a scam because it generates billions of dollars in revenue and the people that are there to perform make almost none of that.

   15. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:30

       That's correct. The i- actually the International Olympic Committee doesn't pay any of the athletes, uh, in... Incidentally, they may get some money in sponsorship or from their National Olympic Committee-

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:39

       Yeah.

   17. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:40

       ... but ultimately, the billions in dollar- billions of dollars in revenue come into the Olympics and none of that goes to the athletes. It gets wasted building stadiums. It gets wasted paying officials. And we thought there was a way to do a better, more honest model that inspires us to believe in the future of science and technology in the 21st century.

2. 1:58 – 3:28

   Nationalism and politics in sports: making it “human beings, not countries”

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:58

      And you could do apolitically too if you chose to.

   2. ADDr. Aron D’Souza2:02

      Uh-

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:02

      You know, are you, are you guys doing it by nation or are you doing it just, like, human beings?

   4. ADDr. Aron D’Souza2:07

      Human beings. Uh-

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:08

      Better.

   6. ADDr. Aron D’Souza2:09

      I th- yeah. I think the era of nationalism, uh, is, is over, right? Look at the Eurovision Song Competition recently. Um-

   7. JRJoe Rogan2:15

      What is that? (laughs)

   8. ADDr. Aron D’Souza2:16

      Oh, it was when, you know, Israel was performing and there were huge protests out front of the competition. It's a very Eu-

   9. JRJoe Rogan2:23

      What was the competition?

   10. ADDr. Aron D’Souza2:24

       It's a very European thing. It's called European Song Contest. I'm European.

   11. JRJoe Rogan2:27

       Song Contest.

   12. ADDr. Aron D’Souza2:28

       A song contest.

   13. JRJoe Rogan2:29

       Oh, Song Contest. Okay.

   14. ADDr. Aron D’Souza2:29

       Yes. It's every country, every year, makes a very cheesy song.

   15. JRJoe Rogan2:33

       Oh, God. (laughs)

   16. ADDr. Aron D’Souza2:34

       And I actually like it.

   17. JRJoe Rogan2:35

       (laughs)

   18. ADDr. Aron D’Souza2:37

       So let's, uh, yes. (laughs) Let's not go there. I'm kind of a fan, um, being German, um, it's a big thing in Europe. But unfortunately, it's g- it was super fun and campy. There's actually a Netflix movie about it. Like, not a documentary, but a fun movie about it.

   19. JRJoe Rogan2:51

       Is this it right here, Jamie?

   20. ADDr. Aron D’Souza2:53

       Uh, well that is one of the winners, yes.

   21. JRJoe Rogan2:54

       Most, 10 recent winners of the Eurovision-

   22. ADDr. Aron D’Souza2:55

       Yes. Yeah.

   23. CAChristian Angermayer2:55

       Oh, God yeah. (laughs)

   24. ADDr. Aron D’Souza2:56

       And she's amazing. She's amazing. It's Loreen.

   25. JRJoe Rogan2:59

       "She's amazing." Okay.

   26. ADDr. Aron D’Souza3:01

       Uh, yeah. It's very catchy songs. I don't know what your song-

   27. JRJoe Rogan3:03

       She's crawling around with her butt up in the air.

   28. ADDr. Aron D’Souza3:05

       Well, it's very campy. (laughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan3:07

       I guess.

   30. ADDr. Aron D’Souza3:08

       Yes. But there is even a cool Netflix movie about it. But long story short, unfortunately, this was the first year where it became really political, which I think music shouldn't be. Yeah.
3. 3:28 – 4:37

   Doping is already everywhere: from Icarus to sprinting and cycling parallels

   1. JRJoe Rogan3:28

      Yeah. We- Yeah. It's just so many countries use it as a political tool, you know. Uh, and they g- they cheat. Like, I'm, I'm sure you guys have seen Icarus, right?

   2. ADDr. Aron D’Souza3:39

      Oh yeah. I was with Bryan Fogel a couple of days ago.

   3. JRJoe Rogan3:41

      He's great. And that documentary is amazing. And the, the, what it, I mean, what incredible, like, circumstances, like the way it all played out, where he's in the middle of doing this documentary about doing a race naturally and then doing a race enhanced. And the guy he contacts in the middle of all the Sochi Olympics crap, that guy winds up fleeing the country, spilling the beans-

   4. ADDr. Aron D’Souza4:03

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan4:04

      ... and now he's hiding. He's-

   6. ADDr. Aron D’Souza4:05

      He's in witness protection, yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan4:06

      Yeah. Still, in this country, hiding from Russian killers.

   8. ADDr. Aron D’Souza4:11

      Yeah. And that's right. And I think, you know, the reality is that performance enhancements are everywhere. Uh, 6.3% of men, um, in the Western world have used anabolic steroids at some point in their life. 75% of men who regularly go to the gym are interested in using steroids. And so instead of doing it underground, in secret, let's do it out in the open with clinical supervision and, and, and safety.

4. 4:37 – 8:36

   Legal vs. banned substances: schedules, TRT, supplements, and ‘tainted’ products

   1. JRJoe Rogan4:37

      But what is, what are the legal ramifications of this? Because, uh, we were talking about this in the pod- we were talking about the different drug schedules on the podcast yesterday. And steroids are scheduled, right? It's like Schedule III.

   2. ADDr. Aron D’Souza4:52

      It's a Sc- yeah. It's a Schedule III substance in the United States. There are 23 countries where steroids, anabolics are legal, including in the United Kingdom for personal use. And so let's first distinguish between what is legal and what is banned. So in Olympic competition they always say, "Oh, these drugs are illegal." But actually, they're, they're banned in Olympic competition. So-

   3. JRJoe Rogan5:13

      'Cause there's a lot of things that are, you know, like peptides and things along those lines that are illegal in the Olympics.

   4. ADDr. Aron D’Souza5:19

      That are banned in the Olympics, but they're not banned in Schedule Substances.

   5. JRJoe Rogan5:21

      Yeah. Banned Schedule Substances.

   6. ADDr. Aron D’Souza5:21

      Yeah. It's really important because it means the Olympics decided as a, as a sort of private organization, "We don't want that."

   7. JRJoe Rogan5:28

      Right.

   8. ADDr. Aron D’Souza5:28

      "But you can take it."

   9. JRJoe Rogan5:29

      Right.

   10. ADDr. Aron D’Souza5:29

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan5:30

       So legally you can take it.

   12. ADDr. Aron D’Souza5:31

       So like TRT, for example, is a perfectly legal substance. It's FDA approved. It's delivered under clinical supervision. But if you used it, you would be banned from Olympic competition.

   13. JRJoe Rogan5:41

       Right.

   14. ADDr. Aron D’Souza5:41

       Right. So the vast majority of compounds that are banned by the World Anti-Doping Agency are actually perfectly legal.

   15. JRJoe Rogan5:47

       Mm. He, you know, the UFC had a guy that accidentally took something that had DHEA in it.

   16. ADDr. Aron D’Souza5:53

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan5:54

       A real high level guy, Khalil Rountree, and he was supposed to be fighting Jamal Hill, uh, in three weeks. And b- he found out that there was DHEA in it. He informed the UFC, told them. And DHEA isn't even performance-enhancing.

   18. ADDr. Aron D’Souza6:09

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan6:10

       And they banned him for two months. So he had a two months... And so he missed out on, like, the biggest opportunity-

   20. ADDr. Aron D’Souza6:14

       It's, it's-

   21. JRJoe Rogan6:14

       ... of his career.

   22. ADDr. Aron D’Souza6:15

       So if you go into your local GNC-... 25% of the goods will contain substances that are banned by the World Anti-Doping Agency.

   23. JRJoe Rogan6:23

       25%?

   24. ADDr. Aron D’Souza6:23

       Yeah. So these are just off the shelf, you know.

   25. JRJoe Rogan6:25

       Right.

   26. ADDr. Aron D’Souza6:25

       This is not black market. This is what you can buy in your local shop, mall.

   27. JRJoe Rogan6:28

       And then, of course, there's tainted supplements, which is a real problem, because a lot of these supplements, they use, uh, another party that puts them together for them, generally in other countries and a lot of them in China. And these people are also making different things with these vats. They don't clean them properly, and then they mix the new stuff in it and you easily get chem contamination. It happens all the time.

   28. ADDr. Aron D’Souza6:49

       Exactly. And well, that's the excuse that the Chinese government used about the 23 swimmers. Are you aware of this situation?

   29. JRJoe Rogan6:54

       Which... What's this?

   30. ADDr. Aron D’Souza6:56

       So 23 Chinese swimmers tested positive TMZ, which is a heart medication, and they claimed that this was because of a-
5. 8:36 – 11:38

   From drug testing to health testing: the Enhanced Games safety premise

   1. JRJoe Rogan8:36

      In the UFC, they don't even let them rehydrate with, um, IVs anymore.

   2. ADDr. Aron D’Souza8:40

      Yeah, same thing in cycling. So if you take more than 100 milliliters of IV within 12 hours, that's considered a banned substance.

   3. JRJoe Rogan8:46

      Well, you can't do any-

   4. ADDr. Aron D’Souza8:47

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan8:47

      ... IVs in the UFC.

   6. ADDr. Aron D’Souza8:48

      Really?

   7. JRJoe Rogan8:49

      Yeah. They won't let you because... Just because of the fear of masking, uh, performance-enhancing drugs, because you could flush your system.

   8. ADDr. Aron D’Souza8:57

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan8:58

      But, uh, the problem with that is like IVs are good for you. Like this is really stupid. Like if, if, uh, if you can make sure that a person is just doing IV vitamins, I mean, if your random testing is effective, you should just do that. Like d- don't stop someone from doing something that's going to make them healthier while they're in a business that's about as dangerous as you can get without people shooting at you.

   10. ADDr. Aron D’Souza9:21

       Yeah. And so the solution is not to do, um, drug testing, it's to do health testing. Like we want to make sure that our athletes are healthy and safe to compete. So we do cardiac screenings, MRIs, blood work, um, to measure their biomarkers to ensure that they're within healthy ranges. And that's the core difference, right? The drug testing apparatus at the Olympics is about fairness and competition. It's not about the health and safety of athletes.

   11. JRJoe Rogan9:45

       Here's the question. If you open up the gates and say you're allowed to take whatever substances you want at whatever levels you want in order to compete at your very best, how close to redlining does a person get? You know, especially if you're involved in something that requires strength and explosive energy like we've had f-... One of the things... The UFC at one point in time had, uh, testosterone use exemptions. And you were allowed to get those if your testosterone was at a low enough level. The problem with that was that was not thought out at all.

   12. ADDr. Aron D’Souza10:20

       You can, you can beat that test in a heartbeat. Just stay up all night-

   13. JRJoe Rogan10:22

       Stay up all night, eat 15 cheeseburgers, and jerk off three times, and you're good. (laughs)

   14. ADDr. Aron D’Souza10:29

       (laughs) You know, you're gonna be, you're gonna be at like 200. Ugh. Like, "Oh my God, you're sick, Bob." (laughs)

   15. CAChristian Angermayer10:35

       (laughs)

   16. JRJoe Rogan10:35

       But it's j-... Also, there's another problem, is that people that have a history of anabolic steroid use, generally they've wrecked their endocrine system.

   17. ADDr. Aron D’Souza10:44

       Mm-hmm.

   18. JRJoe Rogan10:45

       And particularly back in the day, the early days of MMA was all enhanced. And if you go and watch Pride, for instance, like Pride, which was the big show in Japan, it was this enormous organization in Japan that kind of fell apart because the Yakuza was involved with it-

   19. ADDr. Aron D’Souza11:03

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JRJoe Rogan11:03

       ... and they went bankrupt. There's a lot of, a lot of craziness involved. But at one point in time, they were selling out like these 90,000-seat arenas in Tokyo. It was nuts.

   21. ADDr. Aron D’Souza11:13

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JRJoe Rogan11:14

       And everybody looked like a superhero. I mean, just fucking jacked, just giant, jacked guys beating the shit out of each other. And everybody who went over there will tell you, like the contract literally specifically stated in capital letters, "We do not test for steroids." They will encourage you to do steroids over there. They want you to look good.

   23. ADDr. Aron D’Souza11:34

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JRJoe Rogan11:34

       They want you to fight at your best. Like we don't care what you take, just go over there and go ham.

6. 11:38 – 13:25

   Fairness, consent, and transparency: ‘cut the shit’ vs. hidden advantage

   1. ADDr. Aron D’Souza11:38

      But it comes down to a fundamental philosophical question. Shouldn't an individual with free and informed consent, an adult, be able to make choices about their own body?

   2. JRJoe Rogan11:49

      They should. But the question is, when is it not fair, right?

   3. CAChristian Angermayer11:53

      But it's the epitome of fairness if it's very transparent.

   4. JRJoe Rogan11:57

      Right.

   5. CAChristian Angermayer11:57

      What is unfair... Think about it like you winning silver in the current Olympics. And I talked to so many athletes, they kind of know who's cheating or not. Because if you are very like into sports, you know what is kind of, let's call it unnatural or enhanced.

   6. JRJoe Rogan12:11

      Right.

   7. CAChristian Angermayer12:12

      So... But they cannot say it. There is a lot of politics, as you say, whatever.

   8. JRJoe Rogan12:15

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CAChristian Angermayer12:15

      So you win silver, you stand next to the person who won gold, and you have a deep hunch that this person is enhanced.

   10. JRJoe Rogan12:23

       Right.

   11. CAChristian Angermayer12:23

       That is the worst-

   12. JRJoe Rogan12:25

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CAChristian Angermayer12:25

       ... because you're betrayed of your performance, uh, because the people on the screen cannot contextualize it.

   14. JRJoe Rogan12:31

       Right.

   15. CAChristian Angermayer12:31

       What we are saying is like... By the way, we're also not anti-Olympics. We're like, the Olympics should be really clean. Then it's interesting because then I have a, a framework I can judge performance. But in our case-... people will know that people take enhancements. We actually will endorse people to even say what they're doing because it's completely open.

   16. JRJoe Rogan12:49

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CAChristian Angermayer12:50

       And then again, you can contextualize, so both is about either zero or completely free slate in the medical framework is the, is the real definition of fairness.

   18. ADDr. Aron D’Souza12:59

       And, and from 1896 until 1992, the Olympics banned professional athletes from competing. And so the Olympics were amateur and there were professional sports leagues elsewhere. And I think the same thing is gonna happen in the 21st century. The Olympics are going to be the natural sports competition where we're gonna see what the best of a human 1.0 can do. And at the Enhanced Games, there will be what can the best unleashed human, superhuman can do.

7. 13:25 – 22:18

   Recruiting athletes & incentives: world-record bounties and a pipeline of applicants

   1. JRJoe Rogan13:25

      But here's the question. If you guys are successful, what, what athlete would want... If you guys are successful and it becomes a huge household name and people watch it and it becomes exciting w- and you make money, what athletes are gonna wanna do the Olympics for free, and get a microscope up your ass and people constantly testing you for this and that, and knowing that other countries are probably pulling off some shenanigans like China allegedly did?

   2. CAChristian Angermayer13:55

      Not our problem-

   3. JRJoe Rogan13:56

      (laughs)

   4. ADDr. Aron D’Souza13:56

      (laughs)

   5. CAChristian Angermayer13:56

      ... but I agree with... (laughs) Yeah. I agree with you. Like, by the way, the same question is-

   6. JRJoe Rogan14:00

      It's a good answer. (laughs) Not our problem.

   7. CAChristian Angermayer14:01

      Not our problem.

   8. JRJoe Rogan14:02

      (laughs)

   9. CAChristian Angermayer14:02

      Like, but I don't wanna, I don't wanna not wish them well. Like, it's just, like, I think we're gonna do better. And, and the other thing is, by the way, what I deeply believe, humans are wired, we want the best and we wanna also watch the best.

   10. JRJoe Rogan14:12

       Yes.

   11. CAChristian Angermayer14:13

       Like, you're not gonna watch something where the best natural player... No, you wanna see the best absolute player, even if this player or person is enhanced. Like, but again, the future will tell and the consumer will tell, but we are super confident.

   12. ADDr. Aron D’Souza14:26

       But it's like the, the rise of the UFC. So the UFC was unbridled by the traditional rules of boxing and other combat sports. And, you know, the simple premise that Rorion Gracie had was how do we find the very best fighter?

   13. JRJoe Rogan14:39

       Mm-hmm.

   14. ADDr. Aron D’Souza14:39

       Right? And that's just a very simple question, and at the Enhanced Games, it's how can we find the fastest human being, or what is the total potentiality of the human spirit and, and all of humanity?

   15. JRJoe Rogan14:52

       So how do you get... Well, it's, there, there's a lot of factors, right? You need people that have already competed, you know, you know, you don't wanna get someone who's just starting out at a sport, right? So you have people that have a, a deep history in the sport where they wanna, and they can, they're capable of competing at an elite level. And then if they're gonna do your games, they have to kind of make this decision 'cause they're never gonna be able in the Olympics again after that, right?

   16. ADDr. Aron D’Souza15:17

       Well, th- they actually could go back to the Olympic system.

   17. JRJoe Rogan15:19

       But they would get so tested. And if they do, I mean, if they do start taking testosterone, do start taking a bunch of other things, it's gonna inhibit their natural ability to produce hormones.

   18. CAChristian Angermayer15:32

       Technically, most likely it comes back, but I would say it's a decision of the Olympics and other sports leagues, how they wanna handle athletes who also at a certain time have participated in our games. Maybe they say there is a cooling off period. So I d- it's not that we will exclude them going back, it might be that other sports leagues say, "Look, once, if you're in the Enhanced Games, you can't come back to us."

   19. JRJoe Rogan15:54

       Mm-hmm.

   20. ADDr. Aron D’Souza15:54

       And, and it's fundamentally an economic question too. So your average Olympian is earning $30,000 a year. You know, the best performing track and field athletes might be making couple 100,000 bucks a year. Um, and, you know, we're offering a million dollar prize for, to break significant world records. And basically what I'm saying-

   21. JRJoe Rogan16:10

       So it's a million dollars just to break the world record.

   22. ADDr. Aron D’Souza16:13

       Yeah, so a mill- a million bucks to break 100 meter world record on the track, a million bucks to break the 50 meter freestyle world record in the pool.

   23. JRJoe Rogan16:21

       So the qu- the question is like, how can you ensure that you're gonna get elite level athletes that are capable of performing at, like, an Olympic level? And they're gonna, they're, they'll be risking... It's a big, it's a significant risk to them because they'll be openly admitting they're part of the Enhanced Games, they're openly admitting that they're taking these substances in order to, to compete at this level, and they don't know if you guys are gonna be around, like-

   24. ADDr. Aron D’Souza16:47

       Well, so number one, you don't have to take enhancements to be at the Enhanced Games. You can just be-

   25. JRJoe Rogan16:51

       You can just be a regular person with awesome genes.

   26. ADDr. Aron D’Souza16:52

       ... a regular person with awesome genes. Yeah, yeah. You could say, "Hey, I'm, I'm-"

   27. JRJoe Rogan16:54

       Yeah.

   28. ADDr. Aron D’Souza16:55

       "... I won the genetic lottery."

   29. JRJoe Rogan16:56

       Mm-hmm.

   30. ADDr. Aron D’Souza16:56

       Right? And I think I can beat all the enhanced athletes and make for great television. Right?
8. 22:18 – 25:01

   Sports lineup and the controversial addition: combat sports, MMA, and boxing

   1. JRJoe Rogan22:18

      Yeah. That makes sense. Um, what are the sports that you guys are going to showcase, and will you have combat sports?

   2. ADDr. Aron D’Souza22:26

      Yeah, so there are five key sports: track, swimming, combat, gymnastics, and strength.

   3. JRJoe Rogan22:34

      And for combat sports, you can have boxing, wrestling. What are you gonna have?

   4. ADDr. Aron D’Souza22:38

      So, boxing and MMA are definitely in.

   5. JRJoe Rogan22:41

      MMA?

   6. ADDr. Aron D’Souza22:42

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan22:43

      Really?

   8. ADDr. Aron D’Souza22:43

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan22:45

      Hmm. That's interesting. So, MMA, um, if you're gonna have people being enhanced in MMA, that will severely limit their ability to compete in other organizations.

   10. ADDr. Aron D’Souza22:58

       Fair.

   11. JRJoe Rogan22:59

       So, how are you gonna get high-level fighters that are not gonna compete in Bellator or not gonna compete in the UFC, or how are you gonna do that?

   12. ADDr. Aron D’Souza23:08

       Well, I think the entire MMA community is clearly moving away from the dr- the traditional drug testing apparatus, and look at what UFC has done, moving away from USADA.

   13. JRJoe Rogan23:16

       No, no, they just moved to drug-free sport-

   14. ADDr. Aron D’Souza23:19

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan23:19

       ... which is just a better organization, does the exact same thing. They're doing the exact same things. The exact same things are banned, including peptides like BPC-157, which people argued, they're like, "This is ridiculous. This shouldn't be legal." But what they said is the problem is state athletic commissions test for BPC-157, and as long as they test, some of them do at least-

   16. ADDr. Aron D’Souza23:39

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan23:39

       ... as long as they deem it illegal, we have to-

   18. ADDr. Aron D’Souza23:42

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JRJoe Rogan23:42

       ... make it illegal.

   20. ADDr. Aron D’Souza23:43

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan23:43

       Even though, yeah, I mean, soft tissue injuries, it's really great for recovery.

   22. ADDr. Aron D’Souza23:47

       Yeah, and so, you know, in terms of athlete recruitment, there's such a wide pipeline. You know, the, the, the difference in terms of, um, with, uh, MMA and combat sports is there's no objective world records.

   23. JRJoe Rogan23:59

       Mm-hmm.

   24. ADDr. Aron D’Souza24:00

       So, you know, the, it's solving for a fame question-

   25. JRJoe Rogan24:03

       Right.

   26. ADDr. Aron D’Souza24:03

       ... not a performance question.

   27. JRJoe Rogan24:04

       Right, it's to be one of the people that does it. So, have you talked to athletes about that, combat sports athletes?

   28. ADDr. Aron D’Souza24:11

       We've had, uh, in, in the casting call that we did, we had, uh, maybe about 15% of the athletes were in the, uh, combat disciplines-

   29. JRJoe Rogan24:19

       Real?

   30. ADDr. Aron D’Souza24:19

       ... um, including ex-UFC athletes, yeah.
9. 25:01 – 35:54

   Clinical supervision vs. ‘bro science’: preventing Vitor Belfort–style outcomes

   1. JRJoe Rogan25:01

      ... um, so they're all kind of be- w- that is interesting, because, like, I don't know how much you guys follow MMA, but one of the- the great errors of MMA was Vitor Belfort when they let him take testosterone.

   2. ADDr. Aron D’Souza25:13

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan25:14

      So do you know about this?

   4. ADDr. Aron D’Souza25:15

      Okay.

   5. JRJoe Rogan25:15

      It's legendary in MMA, because he is the best example of a veteran, a guy who is- was an older guy, first fought in the UFC at 19 years old in 1997. And in the 2000s, this was like 2004 or '5, that's when they allowed the testosterone use exemptions.

   6. ADDr. Aron D’Souza25:35

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan25:35

      And Vitor looked like an alien. He would come... Luke Rockhold saw him in- in- in the- at like the weigh-ins and he's like, "My first thought was what the fuck is this guy on?"

   8. ADDr. Aron D’Souza25:45

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan25:45

      'Cause he just l- He had a mohawk, and he just looked insanely jacked, and he was knocking everybody out. I mean, fearless. But, um, because of the testosterone use exemptions, and then there was some controversy about it, they had tested him one time when he was... He lives in Brazil, and they had tested him one time when he was in the United States, and he was off the charts.

   10. ADDr. Aron D’Souza26:05

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan26:05

       Like, you're not supposed to have that much testosterone in your system. This is fucking insane. And so then it started this controversy, and then ultimately, they got rid of testosterone use exemptions. But he was the perfect example of a really elite fighter who, you know, is getting older. His body was kind of failing him, and just he did a lot of steroids when he was younger, allegedly, and so his physique looked kind of soft, and then all of a sudden, he looked like a fucking freak, just a real freak. And he was just wheel-kicking people and knocking everybody out, and it was like he went on a run for a few years where he was just unstoppable. It was terrifying, and everybody knew he was enhanced. You'd look at him, you're just like, "Good Lord." So then he gets off of it, 2006- '16, '17 rather is him off of it, so 2012 is Vitor high on the sauce. I mean, look at him, and then 2017 he doesn't.

   12. ADDr. Aron D’Souza27:01

       He doesn't even look like the same person.

   13. JRJoe Rogan27:01

       He doesn't. All of his muscle went away, and all of his endurance went away. His endocrine system is shot from years of doing TRT, and, you know, and just whatever else he was doing.

   14. ADDr. Aron D’Souza27:12

       And- and what I would caution about that is having the highest quality clinical and scientific supervision. So the problem about the current environment is that it's largely done underground. Very few athletes have access to high-quality doctors. Most of the information's what I call bro science-

   15. JRJoe Rogan27:29

       Mm-hmm.

   16. ADDr. Aron D’Souza27:29

       ... on bodybuilding.com forums.

   17. JRJoe Rogan27:31

       Yeah, or gym guys that tell you, "I got you, bro."

   18. ADDr. Aron D’Souza27:33

       Yeah. I saw someone on Instagram. So, you know, what we're trying to do is a very rigorous scientific, uh, and medical process to ensure that we gather high-quality con- clinical data, and we share it. We're gonna publish it in the top journals, and we have a scientific advisory board. We have doctors from, you know, previously at FIFA, um, you know, the chairman of genetics at Harvard, Professor George Church, is on our advisory board. And we've really built up a serious scientific and medical establishment to make the Enhanced Games a very serious endeavor.

   19. JRJoe Rogan28:06

       And when you do this, so you're gonna have combat sports, so you'll have MMA. You'll have wrestling? Not sure?

   20. ADDr. Aron D’Souza28:13

       Not sure about wrestling. Well, you know, we're- we're still open to ideas in terms of the pool of athletes that we can recruit. Wrestling is, you know, increasingly a niche sport. Um, the participation numbers are down. The television numbers are down, you know, so it's an- an economic decision because one of the core challenges of the Olympic Games is they've expanded to so many sports. It's so much content. It's so expensive to run, and so in our analysis of sports, it's always, what can be delivered with the highest television and social media impact, with the lowest infrastructural cost?

   21. JRJoe Rogan28:45

       Hmm. But you're having sprinting in all these other games too, right? E- uh, uh, don't you think that wrestling is like a... I mean, wasn't it the original game in- in the Olympic Games? It was the original sport?

   22. ADDr. Aron D’Souza28:57

       Yeah, but, you know, the- we are inspired in some ways by the Olympic Games, but we don't want to be held back in history like the IOC is.

   23. JRJoe Rogan29:07

       Yeah.

   24. ADDr. Aron D’Souza29:07

       Right? They're- they're like, "Oh, it must be every four years," right?

   25. JRJoe Rogan29:11

       Mm-hmm.

   26. ADDr. Aron D’Souza29:11

       "We must have these certain sports in." Um, our games are gonna be every year because that gives an athlete, uh, athletes greater opportunities to monetize and engage with their fans. Um, and w- we believe that we are the Olympics not of reinventing ancient Greece, but of the future.

   27. JRJoe Rogan29:27

       So you'll have boxing?

   28. ADDr. Aron D’Souza29:29

       Boxing, certainly.

   29. JRJoe Rogan29:30

       Hmm. The only worry that pe- I think people would have is that giving someone some s- substances would allow them to hurt someone more. It's like, it's different, and I- I know what you're saying, like the other person gets them too, and so... But it's a discussion, right? It's... If someone runs faster because you gave them something, like, no one's getting hurt there, you know? Maybe reputations are getting hurt, whatever, but if- if you give someone something and it allows someone to beat someone more, you know...

   30. CAChristian Angermayer30:04

       But isn't that the wrong moral discussion because then we shouldn't-
10. 35:54 – 1:03:03

    Body autonomy beyond sports: modafinil, psychedelics, drug-risk framing, and harm charts

    1. ADDr. Aron D’Souza35:54

       Do you know what the legal definition of medicine is?

    2. JRJoe Rogan35:56

       No, I do not.

    3. ADDr. Aron D’Souza35:57

       So, it's a fascinating thing. I only learned it a couple weeks ago. So, in the 1920s, the Carnegie Foundation commissioned a sociologist from, uh, Johns Hopkins University, Professor Albert Flexner, to go and study medical education. And so it used to be, back then, that anyone could call themselves a doctor.

    4. JRJoe Rogan36:15

       Really?

    5. ADDr. Aron D’Souza36:16

       Yeah. Yeah. Anyone could come-

    6. JRJoe Rogan36:17

       Damn, I missed the boat. (laughs)

    7. CAChristian Angermayer36:18

       (laughs)

    8. ADDr. Aron D’Souza36:18

       Yeah. Anyone could ... they read some books and you call yourself a doctor.

    9. JRJoe Rogan36:21

       (laughs)

    10. ADDr. Aron D’Souza36:21

        And after the Flexner report, it was, uh, decided by state legislatures that we had to regulate what it meant to be a doctor and what, um, medical e- ed- education was required. And the definition of medicine, as a result of that, is that medicine is about the treatment and cure of disease. It's making sick people less sick.

    11. JRJoe Rogan36:42

        Hmm.

    12. ADDr. Aron D’Souza36:43

        Right? And if you walk into your doctor and you say, "I'm a healthy 39-year-old, but I'd like to be extraordinary," he would say, "I'm sorry, medicine legally cannot help you."

    13. JRJoe Rogan36:56

        Well, wasn't this the reason why, um, Provigil and Nuvigil, when they first came up with those, I believe they came up with them with the idea of them being a performance-enhancing substance, but then they didn't have a way to prescribe them, so they used narcolepsy.

    14. ADDr. Aron D’Souza37:13

        Yeah, so-

    15. CAChristian Angermayer37:13

        You mean, modhef- ... there's no dep- modafinil?

    16. JRJoe Rogan37:15

        Mod- modafinil.

    17. CAChristian Angermayer37:16

        Modafinil. Yeah, I love it.

    18. JRJoe Rogan37:16

        Yeah, the, the other ... Yeah, it's, it's interesting stuff, right? Because it doesn't make you speedy.

    19. CAChristian Angermayer37:22

        Y-

    20. JRJoe Rogan37:22

        But-

    21. CAChristian Angermayer37:22

        No, it's like, I think it's like ... By the way, I always tell it at universities when I give a speak, that's the real mind or intellectual enhancement drugs-

    22. JRJoe Rogan37:29

        Yeah.

    23. CAChristian Angermayer37:29

        ... because it doesn't make you jittery, whatever. By the way-

    24. JRJoe Rogan37:32

        Do you stack it?

    25. CAChristian Angermayer37:33

        ... uh, with-

    26. JRJoe Rogan37:34

        Nootropics?

    27. CAChristian Angermayer37:36

        We, yes. We, I do a lot of things. (laughs) Yes, uh-

    28. ADDr. Aron D’Souza37:38

        (laughs)

    29. CAChristian Angermayer37:38

        But anyway, it's like-

    30. ADDr. Aron D’Souza37:39

        He's the one that's more enhanced.
11. 1:03:03 – 1:06:14

    Business model and media strategy: VC funding, sponsors, and ‘core mythology’ of brands

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:03:03

       Now let's talk about the Enhanced Games in terms of long-term plans. Like, uh, how are you guys funded and how long can you stay open? Like if, d- do you have a long-term strategy?

    2. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:03:18

       Yes. Well, we, we've raised millions of dollars in the world's top venture capitalists, Christian included, Peter Thiel, Balaji Srinivasan. And let's, you know, we're reinventing the Olympic Games not just in terms of adding, uh, performance enhancements, adding payments to athlete, but we're also removing the core waste. So the core problem with the Olympics is that they build a dozen stadiums and then they throw them away after two weeks. It is literally the most financially wasteful exercise in human history. You know, um, hun- you know, between $30 and $100 billion it costs to put on an Olympic Games, and it is just disastrous for the host city. So by reducing the number of sports and focusing on the ones that have the highest television and social media impact, we can have a very, very low infrastructural cost and operate the whole thing profitably.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:04:07

       Right. But how, uh, d- do you have a plan as to like how long to do it?

    4. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:04:12

       Oh, this is a century long project for us.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:04:14

       So, so d'you wanna-

    6. CAChristian Angermayer1:04:16

       It's not a pop-up event, like it's gonna be forever.

    7. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:04:18

       Right.

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:04:18

       Right.

    9. CAChristian Angermayer1:04:18

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    10. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:04:18

        I understand.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:04:19

        But what if it's not successful? Like what if the first one comes out of the gate, like how are you gonna make the money? Are you gonna use sponsorships? Are you gonna charge pay-per-view?

    12. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:04:27

        So-

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:04:27

        How are you gonna do it? Are you gonna sell it to a network?

    14. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:04:29

        So, uh, number one, we will raise enough equity capital so that we can run the games for at least three years without any, uh, media rights, corporate sponsorship, or ticket sales. Of course, we will grab all those revenue drivers and that will make us a profitable endeavor. But fundamentally, we have enough equity capital to make sure this thing really works and is delivered for a long period of time.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:04:53

        So for three years-

    16. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:04:55

        We-

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:04:55

        ... you just run it till the bricks fall off?

    18. CAChristian Angermayer1:04:56

        Even if we don't. So, but what I can tell you, what I was actually a- a little bit surprised positively is like we got inbounded by big brands. We were actually calculating in the early days, we said, "Ah, it's gonna be controversial." Um, "We don't think a big," uh, whatever, uh, outdoor brand or whatever, a big, uh, sportswear brand will sponsor us in the first year. So we really, as Aaron said, we planned we're gonna be, we are venture funded and we can do it three years without those major revenues, which we obviously somewhat want to have. But then surprisingly, major brands inbounded us and said, "Can we work with you early?" Which again, showed us like we sort of hit the zeitgeist a bit-

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:05:37

        Mm.

    20. CAChristian Angermayer1:05:38

        ... uh, with the thing, so.

    21. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:05:38

        Yeah. And so in terms of brand sponsorship, so Nike, their core mythology is that the fastest people in the world wear their shoes.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:05:46

        I like how you say their core mythology.

    23. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:05:47

        Yeah, the core mythology, right?

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:05:49

        (laughs)

    25. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:05:50

        And then, uh, this is very simple. Eventually, the fastest people in the world will be at the Enhanced Games.

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:05:56

        Mm.

    27. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:05:56

        And then, and if, and if they're not wearing Nike shoes, that can undermine that $100 billion brand. And so if you're a challenger shoe company out there and you say, "Ooh, come sponsor this Enhanced Games thing," right? We can capture Nike's core mo- is it, brand is just a myth.

12. 1:06:14 – 1:39:14

    Event logistics and timeline: end of 2025 target and multi-city infrastructure

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:06:14

       Hmm. That's an interesting way to phrase it, the core mythology. Now when you guys, when, when is going to be the first Enhanced Games?

    2. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:06:25

       At the, uh, we're targeting for the end of 2025.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:06:29

       And do you know where you're going to do it?

    4. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:06:31

       So this is a question journalists always ask me.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:06:33

       You need to do it at the Sphere.

    6. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:06:35

       Uh, it is, the Sphere is, uh-

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:06:38

       Come on.

    8. CAChristian Angermayer1:06:39

       (laughs)

    9. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:06:39

       Yeah.

    10. CAChristian Angermayer1:06:39

        Not an uneducated guess.

    11. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:06:41

        Not an uneducated guess.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:06:42

        Oh, really? Hey, I like it.

    13. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:06:44

        So, so, so the journalists always ask, "Well, where's the Enhanced Games going to be?" Because they think of it like the Olympic Games. They think, "Oh, you need a host city where you have 12 stadiums," and there are very few cities like that. But we live in the era of television and social media. We don't need all of our infrastructure in the same place. The swimming could be in Sydney, the track and field could be in Los Angeles, the weightlifting could be in Las Vegas, right?

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:07:10

        Mm, interesting.

    15. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:07:10

        And all united through the magic of television. Therefore, we are not dependent on infrastructure in one city. We're not dependent on having 10,000 hotel rooms available. And this is really the technological innovation that we're bringing to the design of the Olympic Games. Because like why do the Olympics need to be in one city?

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:07:30

        Mm.

    17. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:07:31

        Right? Why does the Paris Metro system need to be upgraded sta- for just two weeks at a cost of billions and billions of dollars? No, we live in a world where 99.9% of sports is consumed-... either on television or on our phones.

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:07:47

        Has the Olympics, have they responded to you guys?

    19. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:07:52

        Yes. Yes.

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:07:52

        What did they say? I can't wait to hear this.

    21. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:07:54

        Oh.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:07:54

        (laughs)

    23. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:07:55

        Uh, so, uh, you know, they ... It, it, it's interesting. So publicly, they don't like us, obviously.

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:08:00

        Mm-hmm.

    25. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:08:01

        Um, but, uh, the fact that we are paying the athletes has really changed the dynamics of Olympic sports. So Lord Sebastian Coe, who is the president of World Athletics, came out and said that athletics will pay $50,000 for a gold medal at the Paris Olympics. And read the coverage. Journalists all attribute this because of the pressure we put on-

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:08:21

        Hmm.

    27. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:08:21

        ... because we're offering payment for athletes. Obviously, we're offering a million for a gold medal. They're offering 50 grand.

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:08:26

        So gold medals in the enhanced games are a million. Breaking a world record-

    29. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:08:30

        No.

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:08:30

        ... is an additional million?

Episode duration: 2:02:37