Joe Rogan Experience #2166 - Enhanced Games

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast,…

   1. CAChristian Angermayer0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music plays) Gentlemen, good to see you.

   3. ADDr. Aron D’Souza0:13

      Good to see you.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Please introduce yourselves.

   5. ADDr. Aron D’Souza0:16

      Uh, I'm Dr. Aaron de Souza, president of the Enhanced Games. And I'm Christian Angermayer, co-founder of the Enhanced Games.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:22

      And, uh, this is a very exciting idea. And how did this come about? What, what was the impetus behind this?

   7. ADDr. Aron D’Souza0:30

      I've been studying the Olympics and the Olympic movement my en- entire life. You know, I'm 39 years old. When I was a undergraduate at university, it was just after the Sydney Olympics and, you know, it was always something that inspired me. And I thought to myself, you know... I l- I learned some key statistics. 44% of Olympians admit to using banned performance-enhancing drugs within the last year, according to research commissioned by the World Anti-Doping-

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:53

      44%.

   9. ADDr. Aron D’Souza0:54

      44%.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:55

       And the other, you know, probably lying.

   11. ADDr. Aron D’Souza0:57

       Are losing. (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:59

       (laughs)

   13. ADDr. Aron D’Souza0:59

       Exactly. Uh, and, and so, you know, and then I learned that the average American Olympian only earns thir- $30,000 a year. And I thought to myself, "There's something really wrong in the system." And instead of, you know, trying to reform it, let's take a blank slate, uh, slate of paper and invent the third Olympiad from scratch.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:19

       Mm. Well, the Olympics is kind of a scam because it generates billions of dollars in revenue and the people that are there to perform make almost none of that.

   15. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:30

       That's correct. The i- actually the International Olympic Committee doesn't pay any of the athletes, uh, in... Incidentally, they may get some money in sponsorship or from their National Olympic Committee-

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:39

       Yeah.

   17. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:40

       ... but ultimately, the billions in dollar- billions of dollars in revenue come into the Olympics and none of that goes to the athletes. It gets wasted building stadiums. It gets wasted paying officials. And we thought there was a way to do a better, more honest model that inspires us to believe in the future of science and technology in the 21st century.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:58

       And you could do apolitically too if you chose to.

   19. ADDr. Aron D’Souza2:02

       Uh-

   20. JRJoe Rogan2:02

       You know, are you, are you guys doing it by nation or are you doing it just, like, human beings?

   21. ADDr. Aron D’Souza2:07

       Human beings. Uh-

   22. JRJoe Rogan2:08

       Better.

   23. ADDr. Aron D’Souza2:09

       I th- yeah. I think the era of nationalism, uh, is, is over, right? Look at the Eurovision Song Competition recently. Um-

   24. JRJoe Rogan2:15

       What is that? (laughs)

   25. ADDr. Aron D’Souza2:16

       Oh, it was when, you know, Israel was performing and there were huge protests out front of the competition. It's a very Eu-

   26. JRJoe Rogan2:23

       What was the competition?

   27. ADDr. Aron D’Souza2:24

       It's a very European thing. It's called European Song Contest. I'm European.

   28. JRJoe Rogan2:27

       Song Contest.

   29. ADDr. Aron D’Souza2:28

       A song contest.

   30. JRJoe Rogan2:29

       Oh, Song Contest. Okay.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Well, th- they actually…

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:00

      starting out at a sport, right? So you have people that have a, a deep history in the sport where they wanna, and they can, they're capable of competing at an elite level. And then if they're gonna do your games, they have to kind of make this decision 'cause they're never gonna be able in the Olympics again after that, right?

   2. ADDr. Aron D’Souza15:17

      Well, th- they actually could go back to the Olympic system.

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:19

      But they would get so tested. And if they do, I mean, if they do start taking testosterone, do start taking a bunch of other things, it's gonna inhibit their natural ability to produce hormones.

   4. CAChristian Angermayer15:32

      Technically, most likely it comes back, but I would say it's a decision of the Olympics and other sports leagues, how they wanna handle athletes who also at a certain time have participated in our games. Maybe they say there is a cooling off period. So I d- it's not that we will exclude them going back, it might be that other sports leagues say, "Look, once, if you're in the Enhanced Games, you can't come back to us."

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:54

      Mm-hmm.

   6. ADDr. Aron D’Souza15:54

      And, and it's fundamentally an economic question too. So your average Olympian is earning $30,000 a year. You know, the best performing track and field athletes might be making couple 100,000 bucks a year. Um, and, you know, we're offering a million dollar prize for, to break significant world records. And basically what I'm saying-

   7. JRJoe Rogan16:10

      So it's a million dollars just to break the world record.

   8. ADDr. Aron D’Souza16:13

      Yeah, so a mill- a million bucks to break 100 meter world record on the track, a million bucks to break the 50 meter freestyle world record in the pool.

   9. JRJoe Rogan16:21

      So the qu- the question is like, how can you ensure that you're gonna get elite level athletes that are capable of performing at, like, an Olympic level? And they're gonna, they're, they'll be risking... It's a big, it's a significant risk to them because they'll be openly admitting they're part of the Enhanced Games, they're openly admitting that they're taking these substances in order to, to compete at this level, and they don't know if you guys are gonna be around, like-

   10. ADDr. Aron D’Souza16:47

       Well, so number one, you don't have to take enhancements to be at the Enhanced Games. You can just be-

   11. JRJoe Rogan16:51

       You can just be a regular person with awesome genes.

   12. ADDr. Aron D’Souza16:52

       ... a regular person with awesome genes. Yeah, yeah. You could say, "Hey, I'm, I'm-"

   13. JRJoe Rogan16:54

       Yeah.

   14. ADDr. Aron D’Souza16:55

       "... I won the genetic lottery."

   15. JRJoe Rogan16:56

       Mm-hmm.

   16. ADDr. Aron D’Souza16:56

       Right? And I think I can beat all the enhanced athletes and make for great television. Right?

   17. JRJoe Rogan17:00

       Yeah, that's fun too, right?

   18. ADDr. Aron D’Souza17:02

       Yeah. And so, you know, if you're, if y- if you've believed you've won the genetic lottery and you think you can show up and break a world record and get a million bucks, they'll, they'll come and do it.

   19. JRJoe Rogan17:11

       Mm-hmm.

   20. ADDr. Aron D’Souza17:11

       Right? And do it naturally. Uh, and then some athletes say, "You know, I did not win the genetic lottery, and I want the chance to be the Neil Armstrong of our generation." To, to, to-

   21. JRJoe Rogan17:21

       (laughs)

   22. ADDr. Aron D’Souza17:21

       ... to, to... You know, this is how I think of it. I think we're, we're building the Apollo mission for the 21st century. Uh, you know, what did the Apollo mission do? It showed us that we were so much more capable as a human species, right? We, we hit a new threshold going to the moon using science and technology to-

   23. JRJoe Rogan17:37

       Hm.

   24. ADDr. Aron D’Souza17:37

       ... overcome our limits. This is exactly what the Enhanced Games is about.

   25. JRJoe Rogan17:41

       Sort of, you're not going to the moon. Let's be serious.

   26. ADDr. Aron D’Souza17:44

       (laughs)

   27. CAChristian Angermayer17:44

       It's gonna be cool. Like-

   28. JRJoe Rogan17:45

       Yeah. (laughs)

   29. CAChristian Angermayer17:45

       ... 3:45.

   30. ADDr. Aron D’Souza17:45

       (laughs)
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   But isn't that the…

   1. JRJoe Rogan30:00

      and it allows someone to beat someone more, you know...

   2. CAChristian Angermayer30:04

      But isn't that the wrong moral discussion because then we shouldn't-

   3. JRJoe Rogan30:07

      Pull up to that mic real quick.

   4. CAChristian Angermayer30:08

      ... then we sh- Isn't it the wrong discussion because we shouldn't then do boxing if we-

   5. JRJoe Rogan30:13

      Right.

   6. CAChristian Angermayer30:13

      ... don't want to allow people to hurt other people? Let's be-

   7. JRJoe Rogan30:15

      Well, ultimately, that's the real discussion, right?

   8. CAChristian Angermayer30:16

      That's real- exactly.

   9. JRJoe Rogan30:17

      Yeah.

   10. CAChristian Angermayer30:17

       But I think a lot of discussions are always pseudo-discussions, where we can have a real discussion, should we have boxing?

   11. JRJoe Rogan30:22

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CAChristian Angermayer30:22

       But, like-

   13. JRJoe Rogan30:23

       Right.

   14. CAChristian Angermayer30:24

       ... it's the same ethical...

   15. JRJoe Rogan30:26

       Right.

   16. ADDr. Aron D’Souza30:26

       Yeah, like power slap, right?

   17. JRJoe Rogan30:27

       But d- well, the... Don't get me started.

   18. CAChristian Angermayer30:29

       Oh, my God.

   19. JRJoe Rogan30:29

       And then but the other one is that maybe it's actually safer for the athletes if they're enhanced-

   20. ADDr. Aron D’Souza30:37

       Because we cover better.

   21. JRJoe Rogan30:37

       ... because maybe they can recover better. Maybe they can take more punishment, you know? Maybe if, you know, they do get hurt in a fight, they'll recover better from the fight than they would naturally. There's a good argument there as well.

   22. ADDr. Aron D’Souza30:49

       Yeah, the- certainly what is appealing, particularly to older athletes, is reducing recovery time.

   23. JRJoe Rogan30:55

       Yes. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's a significant thing for guys just in, as they get into their 30s, if- if they're still competing as a professional, they realize, like, "I don't recover as well at 34, even though I'm still in my athletic prime in terms of ability to perform." Their ability to put in work in the gym is not quite the same, and the way they feel the next day is not quite the same.

   24. CAChristian Angermayer31:17

       ... I can tell you, I started the whole process. Like, I always, when I start a company, I wanna feel it myself, what is really ... what I'm talking about. It's not just like ... So I'm going through the enhancement process of an athlete myself.

   25. JRJoe Rogan31:29

       Mm.

   26. CAChristian Angermayer31:29

       Um, and it's unbelievable. Like, you feel 20 years younger, in like recovery, I can train every day. I wake up in the morning and don't feel stiff anymore. I'm like, "Oh, shit. This is how it felt when I was in my 20s."

   27. JRJoe Rogan31:42

       Yeah. It's really strange that that's looked down upon. (laughs)

   28. CAChristian Angermayer31:46

       Yeah. I can't really understand it. No, I can't really understand it. It's like, I think it's, it's a natural right, like you wanna be at your best at any time in your life. And it should be your decision, by the way.

   29. JRJoe Rogan31:56

       Yes.

   30. CAChristian Angermayer31:56

       What is your best? I'm not saying that people should be jacked, that this is aspirational. It should be every single person's decision.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   No, it's a medication.…

   1. JRJoe Rogan45:00

      a great way to get through the door. Because, you know, the veteran community's been dealing with it for a long time, and I think it's shifted the perspective from a lot of these people that are more conservative, that would normally think of "drugs" as being for losers and bad for society, and they have a different perspective on it now. Like, you're- you're calling it drugs. It's the wrong word.

   2. CAChristian Angermayer45:22

      No, it's a medication.

   3. JRJoe Rogan45:23

      Yeah. Well, it's- it's really entheogens.

   4. CAChristian Angermayer45:25

      Yes.

   5. JRJoe Rogan45:26

      You know, what they are is when you- when you experience it, anybody who experiences it would not want it to be illegal. The people that are ... the problem is the people that are adamant about it- it being illegal are the ones who aren't experiencing it. It's-

   6. CAChristian Angermayer45:38

      Yes, I-

   7. JRJoe Rogan45:38

      ... it's really ridiculous.

   8. CAChristian Angermayer45:39

      I agree, and, uh, you might have seen that was one of the problem of the advisory board meeting of the FDA some days ago when MAPS presented their data. I don't know if you followed it. Like-

   9. JRJoe Rogan45:48

      I did not.

   10. CAChristian Angermayer45:49

       ... unfortunately, it was a very sad moment. The, uh- it's not a decision yet, because the FDA is gonna decide on August the 11th on MDMA, but the advisory committee hearing, which was public, recommended not to approve MDMA for post-traumatic stress disorder.

   11. JRJoe Rogan46:06

       Oh, Jesus.

   12. CAChristian Angermayer46:06

       It was a big outcry. But the reason is also, I wanna be a little bit self-critical, like, for the psychedelic industry, because I'm a huge believer. Like, you're sitting next to maybe the biggest believer in psychedelics, but I also realize that 95%, I would guess, because we live in our bubble. You have met a lot of people who take psychedelics. I'm always very open. Like, in a country where it's legal, I do my psychedelic therapy sort of life-enhancing thing twice a year. Like, I'm very open with that. But, like, I also realized, we are a bubble. Like, and 95% of whatever, like, a vast majority of- of people have not done psychedelics yet, and are unfortunately, we can like it or not, and we can blame the Nixon government or not, but, like, are stuck in this misinformation. So the only way to ... This was sort of what some people say, I'm too conservative, because they're like, "Oh my God, you're taking it, like, you should, like, be more like liberal," whatever, but my decision was the only way to move psychedelics back into the medical world is to do it like I would do it, and we have a biotech portfolio, 50 biotech companies, like I do it with every other medical substance and produce in clinical data. In a very rigorous, very scientific way, um, to show and prove it, what I personally believe, but we have to prove it. And that was a little bit the weakness of the MAPS data, because, uh, you know, MAPS was, uh, a nonprofit, so they never had a huge funding, so all the data was actually always done with a minimum effort. We ... Not because they wanted it, but, like, it was kind of limited in terms of funding. Give you an example. Like, MAPS did 200 people in the phase III PDST study. Uh, in our treatment-resistant depression study with psilocybin, the active, uh, ingredient in magic mushrooms, we treated around hun- 800 people. Why ... People said that, "But you know, it's a lot, you need to spend all that money," because it cost hundreds of millions, but I was like, "People will try to poke holes in it because it's magic mushrooms." Yeah, so because I'm dealing with psychedelics, and because I have this personal conviction, but I cannot take my personal conviction and say, "Oh, everybody should just follow me," because like, "I know really." I need to be especially rigorous and need to do it sort of very scientific, very broad. So- so, yeah, long story short, I think psychedelics are coming back. Yeah? I think we're gonna deliver really good data over the next years, and, uh, I also think, uh, I- I still hope that the FDA will actually still approve MDMA, because they can, so they need- don't need to follow that advisory board's recommendation, and I think the political pressure of the veterans is there, so I really hope. But if not, it's also not lost, because the advisory board didn't push back on MDMA per se, they pushed back on that specific dataset and said, "Okay, there are holes we can poke into it." So-

   13. JRJoe Rogan48:54

       Mm.

   14. CAChristian Angermayer48:54

       Yeah, nothing lost.

   15. JRJoe Rogan48:55

       Nothing lost. Um, th- th- what's going on with marijuana is interesting in this country, because at this point, 24 states ... Is it 24? 24 states, we talked about it yesterday. 24 states have it legal for recreational use, so it's literally half the country. And then you have more that have it available for medical use, yet the government still has it as a Schedule I. They've made moves to turn it to a Schedule III, but as of w- this discussion, it's a Schedule I drug. Which is ... You have 24 ... You have half the country, literally, in states that are saying, "You can take it here, you could buy it here, you could sell it here. We'll tax it." And the federal government is still not on board with that. And then ...... the move next would be psilocybin. So some states have decriminalized that, right? Like Portland, kind of. Portland or Oregon, I think, has done a reverse. They've- they've- they've made like a- I think they've hit the brakes, because-

   16. CAChristian Angermayer49:49

       Yes. I- I want to make a big sort of plea that psilocybin or, in general, psychedelics and cannabis should not be mixed together. People instinctively do that because it's kind of the same history. It's- it's so-called illegal drugs which now becoming in one way or the other legal again.

   17. JRJoe Rogan50:05

       Uh-huh.

   18. CAChristian Angermayer50:06

       But if I look at it, I have a very sort of strong opinion. Psychedelics are very strong substances, in a very good way. So they have a very good outcome. But if I look at human history, and you had Brian here, Muraresku, who I love.

   19. JRJoe Rogan50:19

       Yes.

   20. CAChristian Angermayer50:19

       Yeah. So if you look at Brian's work, he has shown that over 10,000 years humans have used psychedelics in a very actually rigid setting. If you think about the Cult of Demeter-

   21. JRJoe Rogan50:31

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CAChristian Angermayer50:31

       ... the Eleusinian Mysteries.

   23. JRJoe Rogan50:33

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CAChristian Angermayer50:33

       Or the Cult of Osiris. Yeah, all of these psychedelic cults, they all actually said you can just do psychedelics once or twice a year with a shaman together. It was actually forbidden by death to take the kykeon, the drink which we believe was ergot, the natural version of LSD, in the Eleusinian Mysteries outside of the very strong framework of the Eleusinian Mysteries.

   25. JRJoe Rogan50:59

       Mm-hmm.

   26. CAChristian Angermayer51:00

       So psychedelics were never consumer drugs. They were always there for enlightenment and for becoming a better human being. But the people understood that it has to be done in a certain framework to really unfold their power.

   27. JRJoe Rogan51:14

       Okay. Let-

   28. CAChristian Angermayer51:15

       So that's what I wanted... So that's why I'm really have- I mean, my personal opinion is, so psychedelics should be medically used but they should be limited. It's not consumer drugs. They should be limited to be used with a therapist together who also sh- sort of gives you a sort of a full sort of therapy session around it, and that's how they can unfold freely.

   29. JRJoe Rogan51:36

       I understand. I understand where you're coming from, but here- here's where I would say about that. First of all, two things. One, you can take psychedelics in microdoses and it's very effective. It's very helpful. And to limit people from having the ability to do that I don't think makes any sense. There's great benefits to microdosing psilocybin. A lot of people have had great benefits microdosing LSD, like tremendous benefits, and they talk about it very openly. And I think if we are going to act under the idea of body autonomy, that falls under that. Also, to say that s- marijuana is not a psychedelic, all that would say to me is you haven't taken enough or you haven't taken edibles, 'cause d- are you aware of the process of what happens when you eat, um, cannabis? You know the difference?

   30. CAChristian Angermayer52:24

       What do you mean? To- compared to psychedelics or...
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   It's from microdosing. Yeah.…

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:00:00

      I swear there was something about psych- psilocybin microdosing and skills. The LSD thing, it says that they were not told what drug they were on, and then here's the results, said no performance on cognitive tests.

   2. CAChristian Angermayer1:00:12

      It's from microdosing. Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:00:14

      This is the microdosing either during drug sessions or did they use, uh, like some sort of IQ test, puzzles? What did they do? It says cognitive test. I mean... Yeah. I'm, I'm just wondering what did they did... I wonder what they did for cognitive tests. There were also some neurobiological reasons to expect LSD might, might improve mood because LSD acts through serotonin receptors where traditional antidepressants are known to act.

   4. CAChristian Angermayer1:00:37

      (coughs) Um, the, the main thing I'm saying is about... So microdosing could be... The only plea I make is like let's treat psychedelics with the same sort of rigorous scientific-

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:00:48

      Yes.

   6. CAChristian Angermayer1:00:48

      ... lens. Like we treat anything else. By the way, that's my whole like... How I marry my libertarian view and sort of my scientific view is let's just prove things. Science is awesome. Like we have-

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:00:58

      Yes.

   8. CAChristian Angermayer1:00:58

      ... learned over the last hundreds of years how to prove things or dismiss things. Let's prove it. And that's, by the way, how we, we, I mean here in the room because we all love psychedelics, like how we convince the 95%, how we convince those people who were sitting on the advisory panel and said no to MDMA. It was very clear when they were talking that none of them had tried it.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:01:19

      Right.

   10. CAChristian Angermayer1:01:19

       So, but the answer can't be, come on, try MDMA and then please approve it. The answer must be, I, I put in front of you a data set-

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:01:27

       Yes.

   12. CAChristian Angermayer1:01:27

       ... where it doesn't matter that it's called MDMA and it doesn't matter that it has a history because the data speaks for itself.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:01:34

       Right. Yeah. It's just...... it's body autonomy is what we're really talking about in science.

   14. CAChristian Angermayer1:01:38

       Once we have proven it, exactly.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:01:40

       Yes.

   16. CAChristian Angermayer1:01:40

       But you want body autonomy-

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:01:41

       Yes.

   18. CAChristian Angermayer1:01:42

       ... well, you want to have people that data to decide on body autonomy.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:01:46

       Sure, yes, be informed.

   20. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:01:47

       Yeah. So I always make the point that individuals with free and informed consent, adults, should be able to make decisions for themselves. But that free and informed consent comes from data. And like a good example, I assume you've used creatine at some point in your life-

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:02:01

       Mm-hmm.

   22. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:02:01

       ... just like virtually all athletes have. When creatine was, first came out on the scene after the 1992 Barcelona Olympics, like you should read the headlines. It was like, "New Super Steroid Infecting Our Sports."

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:02:14

       (laughs)

   24. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:02:14

       Like headline from The Independent Newspaper, "Creatine Is Cheating, No Matter How You Look At It."

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:02:20

       What year was this?

   26. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:02:21

       1992.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:02:22

       Wow.

   28. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:02:22

       Right? And-

   29. CAChristian Angermayer1:02:23

       Now we take it all. Now you can't-

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:02:24

       Yeah, I-
6. 1:15:00 – 1:17:26

   Yeah. I couldn't agree…

   1. CAChristian Angermayer1:15:00

      at health. By the way, I think looks at health, how we should look at health, not like how we just give people something once the damage is there, but how we can keep and keep people more healthy for longer and help them to enhance themselves as they want to.

   2. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:15:17

      Yeah. I couldn't agree more.

   3. CAChristian Angermayer1:15:18

      Yeah.

   4. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:15:18

      I think-

   5. CAChristian Angermayer1:15:19

      And, and I come from the view that aging is a disease that we should be able to treat, cure, and eventually solve. And but that's not what medicine is about. So legally, aging is not a disease. So a doctor cannot prescribe you medication, uh, against the clinical indicator of aging. Aging is a normal biological process and is just accepted by the field of medicine. And it wasn't until 1997 that osteoporosis was considered a disease. It was prior to that just considered a natural part of the aging process.

   6. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:15:54

      Mm.

   7. CAChristian Angermayer1:15:54

      And so I think we need a revolution here where we say medicine is not about making just the sick people less sick. It's about fundamentally improving the quality of all human life so that we can become superhuman. And at the time in which, you know, we live, uh, an era of artificial intelligence where the machines are upgrading, we need to upgrade our own biology to be competitive.

   8. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:16:19

      Well, I think th- in that case, I mean, especially looking at Ozempic and th- these, these drugs that are used off label, the fact that they're s- they're incredibly profitable and the fact that they are being used mostly for people who just want to lose some weight and look better, that's really probably a good sign for the future of how these substances are, are at least allowed to be used.

   9. CAChristian Angermayer1:16:41

      100%.

   10. ADDr. Aron D’Souza1:16:42

       And, and, and at the first Enhanced Games, athletes will break world records. You think so? I think so. And I'll, I'll park that up for a second. But the, when, when that happens, everyone's going to say, "What is he on and how do I get it?" Yeah. Because it's no longer going to be scary, it's no longer going to be unknown. Right. It's like if Lance Armstrong, after coming back from cancer and winning the Tour de France, went out and said, "You know what? I'd like to thank my sponsor, EPO. EPO made it possible for me to go from being a cancer patient to the best cyclist in the world." Everyone in the world would go talk to their doctor about EPO. Yeah. Right? But he didn't do that. No, he didn't. (laughs) No. (laughs) Also, everybody shouldn't be on EPO.

Episode duration: 2:02:37