Joe Rogan Experience #2167 - Noland Arbaugh

1. 0:00 – 1:10

   Neuralink’s first human patient and why this moment matters

   1. NANoland Arbaugh0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. NANarrator0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music) All right. What's up, Nolan?

   4. NANoland Arbaugh0:14

      Nothing much. Can you guys hear me through this?

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      Yeah.

   6. NANoland Arbaugh0:16

      Is this too far away? Cool.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      No, it's perfect, it's perfect.

   8. NANoland Arbaugh0:18

      Yeah, cool, man.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:18

      It's a pleasure to meet you, man.

   10. NANoland Arbaugh0:20

       Hey, you too. Me- you too. Thanks for having me.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:22

       I have a feeling if there's a movie that they do in the future-

   12. NANoland Arbaugh0:26

       Oh.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:26

       ... of how the world changed in 2024, you're gonna be in that movie.

   14. NANoland Arbaugh0:30

       (laughs) Yeah, that would be cool.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:31

       (laughs)

   16. NANoland Arbaugh0:32

       Yeah, that'd be cool. I wonder if they'd get to play me.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:35

       Y- I ... They probably don't need people by then.

   18. NANoland Arbaugh0:38

       (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:38

       They probably just do movies with AI-

   20. NANoland Arbaugh0:40

       Yeah, yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:40

       ... and probably really quickly. You could probably, like, take a really great novel like The Great Gatsby-

   22. NANoland Arbaugh0:46

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:46

       ... run it through an AI video creator, and it would just make you the most amazing version of The Great Gatsby.

   24. NANoland Arbaugh0:51

       Yeah, that's true.

   25. JRJoe Rogan0:52

       Probably.

   26. NANoland Arbaugh0:53

       Yeah, that'd be sick.

   27. JRJoe Rogan0:54

       But if we're talking about, like, historical moments in human beings and in technology, the implementation of Neuralink on the first human patient, that's you.

   28. NANoland Arbaugh1:06

       Yeah. Yeah, I guess so. Um-

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:08

       No, definitely.

   30. NANoland Arbaugh1:09

       Yeah. (laughs)
2. 1:10 – 3:08

   Brain-computer interfaces before Neuralink: Utah Array, Synchron, and early timelines

   1. NANoland Arbaugh1:10

      Yeah, I mean, I was... I keep thinking about it like, you know, BCI have been around for a while, um, so I've told people-

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:16

      What is BCI?

   3. NANoland Arbaugh1:18

      Uh, brain computer interface, so like-

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:19

      Mm-hmm.

   5. NANoland Arbaugh1:19

      ... just, uh, implants that they've done in people, um, different ways that they've found. Um, they've given people the ability to, like, control electronic devices. They've been able to control computers and stuff. There are a couple things out there that... Utah Array, um, Synchron came out with something, um, where basically they go through the, um, um, artery in the neck and that they kinda thread something up into the brain that expands, um, in a vein up there, in an artery up there, and then they can, like, control the brain through that. So BCI has been around for a while, a few decades at least, I think since, like, the '90s. So I always say that we're standing on the shoulders of giants sort of thing, but I know Neuralink just has, uh ... It's in a league of its own, and I know that, you know, with Elon's name attached to it, it's gonna blow up way more. Um, but I think this is the beginning. I think everyone else that, you know, comes after this basically is gonna be pulled up by the progress Neuralink's making and the fact that they are trying to, like, open source basically all of it. Um, I think the whole field is just gonna grow exponentially at this point.

   6. JRJoe Rogan2:25

      Well, we can only hope so, and that, that really is fascinating.

   7. NANoland Arbaugh2:28

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JRJoe Rogan2:28

      And it really is fascinating how many different ways and strategies they've employed to try to-

   9. NANoland Arbaugh2:34

      Mm-hmm.

   10. JRJoe Rogan2:34

       ... connect computers to human beings-

   11. NANoland Arbaugh2:36

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JRJoe Rogan2:36

       ... and brains. So what ... Do you know what year the first one was that they did this?

   13. NANoland Arbaugh2:41

       (sighs) '98 maybe?

   14. JRJoe Rogan2:44

       Oh, wow.

   15. NANoland Arbaugh2:44

       Yeah, I think so. I think that was the Utah Array. Um, that just, uh, was, uh, looks like a chip with like more fixed, um, uh, like threads on it. They were, I think, a lot smaller, and it just sat on the brain. Um, so obviously another, uh, open brain surgery, and they put it in there, and then it would read a section of the brain motor cortex, I think, as well.

3. 3:08 – 5:11

   Reading dreams and simulation talk: what brain data could reveal

   1. JRJoe Rogan3:08

      (clears throat) Have you seen some of the stuff now where they're using, um, some kind of scanning imagery where they can actually see thoughts?

   2. NANoland Arbaugh3:16

      No, I haven't.

   3. JRJoe Rogan3:17

      Yeah. They're, they're, they're doing where they think they're gonna be able to record dreams eventually.

   4. NANoland Arbaugh3:23

      (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan3:24

      And what they're able to do now is get, like, an approximation of what someone is seeing and thinking.

   6. NANoland Arbaugh3:30

      Whoa.

   7. JRJoe Rogan3:31

      Can you find that, Jamie, so we could figure out exactly what they did?

   8. NANoland Arbaugh3:35

      Yeah, that's-

   9. JRJoe Rogan3:35

      Here it is. Scientists read dreams-

   10. NANarrator3:37

       Oh, hold on. This is an older one.

   11. JRJoe Rogan3:38

       ... using brain scans. This is an older one?

   12. NANarrator3:40

       This is not the newer one.

   13. JRJoe Rogan3:41

       Okay.

   14. NANoland Arbaugh3:41

       (coughs) That's crazy. I mean, I've always heard that, um, scientists really don't know how, like, what dreams are and, like, what is going on or why we do it. I've heard plenty of people say, like, "Yeah, we still don't know why you even need to sleep," or, like, "What's going on when you dream?" I don't know if that's changed recently, but, like, I don't know. Dreams are, dreams are an interesting thing.

   15. JRJoe Rogan4:01

       The whole sleep thing is interesting.

   16. NANoland Arbaugh4:02

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan4:03

       MRI scans reveal what we see in dreams. Japanese researchers unveil dreams visuals with 60% accuracy.

   18. NANoland Arbaugh4:09

       What?

   19. JRJoe Rogan4:10

       Using innovative MRI scans at pivotal Kyoto study showcasing a breakthrough in sleep science.

   20. NANoland Arbaugh4:17

       Whoa.

   21. JRJoe Rogan4:17

       Wow. Wild stuff.

   22. NANoland Arbaugh4:20

       That picture just looked AI. Are we dreaming in AI now?

   23. JRJoe Rogan4:24

       I think we're close.

   24. NANoland Arbaugh4:25

       (laughs) Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan4:25

       I think if the simulation is real, it seems ridiculous now. Less so than it seemed five years ago, but I think five years from now, it'll seem likely.

   26. NANoland Arbaugh4:34

       Hm.

   27. JRJoe Rogan4:35

       I think it's all interconnected in some very bizarre way.

   28. NANoland Arbaugh4:38

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan4:38

       I think we're slowly building toward that connection-

   30. NANoland Arbaugh4:42

       Mm-hmm.
4. 5:11 – 9:13

   The “thread pullout” issue: why performance dropped and what they learned

   1. NANoland Arbaugh5:11

      Oh, yeah. That'd be crazy. I'm ... That's one of the things I'm really excited about with Neuralink, is how much we're going to learn just about the brain from this, like, the amount of data they're collecting. Um, I mean, little things, like the fact that, um, all the stuff with the thread pullout going on with my brain, um, or one of the reasons that they think it happened is because, um ... Well, I don't know. Have you heard about, like, the thread pullout and stuff?

   2. JRJoe Rogan5:38

      Yes.

   3. NANoland Arbaugh5:39

      So basically-

   4. JRJoe Rogan5:39

      Can you explain it to people?

   5. NANoland Arbaugh5:40

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. So basically, um, there are 64 threads implanted in my brain, um, uh, with 16 electrodes on them each. And over the...... course of a month, um, we saw a lot of the threads start retracting from my brain. So the threads that the robot implanted, um, were retracted. And so we were getting less signals from a lot of them, and they can't see that on, like, brain scans or anything. So, like, the threads are so small, you know, uh, not even the size of a human hair, that in order to get a scan of them, you'd have to use such a big machine that it would probably just fry my brain. So, they can't just go in and look at 'em. Um, so a lot of the data that we have that shows that they were moving or coming out of the brain was literally just, um, whether or not the electrodes on the threads were sending signals anymore, if they were picking up neuron spikes. Um, so a lot of the threads were getting pulled out and that led to, you know, some, um, declined performance for a while. They kind of fixed that in a way. Um, but some of the reason that that happened, at least we think, is because the brain moves more than they thought it would, which is something that was so bizarre to me when I first heard that. I was like, "You guys don't know how, how much the brain moves?" Like, this feels like, like, that should've been something that was solved, you know, ages ago.

   6. JRJoe Rogan7:03

      I never even thought it moved.

   7. NANoland Arbaugh7:04

      Yeah. So it pulses-

   8. JRJoe Rogan7:05

      Oh.

   9. NANoland Arbaugh7:05

      ... like, with, with, like, your brain, with your heart, I mean. So, like, as your heart pulses and stuff, your brain pulses as well, um, 'cause, you know, there's blood running through it and everything. So, um, it's just pulsing. And they thought that it moved, like, pulses, at about a one-millimeter rate, so that's how much it'll pulse, like, move, is one millimeter. And they found in my brain that it was moving three millimeters, pulsing. So that's on a scale of 3X times what they had made the whole Neuralink and the threads and everything for, um, to be able to withstand. So, they think that that might have had something to do with it as well.

   10. JRJoe Rogan7:40

       So, is that a normal thing that, like, does the brain have a range?

   11. NANoland Arbaugh7:46

       Yeah, I don't know. I think that's gonna, um... We'll, we'll know more.

   12. JRJoe Rogan7:50

       Stiffness pulsation of the human brain detected by non-invasive time... The human brain pulses every time the heart beats. Scientists have used the tiny jiggle to reveal new insights about our neurons. Neuroscientist, try that name, Ueli Rut-ishauer, Rutenshauer, Ueli Rutenshauer, PhD, thought he'd uncovered a strange new phenomenon about the human brain. So, so it pulses every heartbeat. So if your heart beats a lot, if your heart's beating fast, if you're jacked up, does your brain pulse fast too?

   13. NANoland Arbaugh8:22

       Yeah, I'm sure. I mean, I get like... What happens with me is if my heart rate's higher, um, I'll get, like, headaches and stuff. So, like, I have a lot of weird things with my, with my body with being a quadriplegic where, like, I can tell, like, if I have really high blood pressure, my head just gets, like, really, really... Like, I get really bad headaches and stuff. But, um, yeah. So, brain moves more than we thought it did, which blew my mind. Once we get more people in the study, then we'll really know if for some reason my brain just moves a lot more than it should. Um, I imagine that we'll see something around the same, and then we will be able to determine, like, a range, like you're talking about. If it's, you know, a range of one millimeter to, say, five millimeters, or if it's pretty consistent around three millimeters, I'm not sure.

5. 9:13 – 17:54

   How Noland controls a computer: intention, training, and machine learning decoding

   1. JRJoe Rogan9:13

      So, what this implant allows you to do is you can interface with a computer.

   2. NANoland Arbaugh9:19

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan9:19

      And you can use keyboard, you can type in URLs, you can play video games.

   4. NANoland Arbaugh9:24

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan9:25

      How does it work?

   6. NANoland Arbaugh9:26

      Yeah. So, basically, um, f- excuse me, um, my implant has, uh, like a Bluetooth connection to the computer, and then through that, Neuralink has created an app that they have, uh, uploaded to the computer. And through that app, I can interface with the, um, with the computer. What it does is all of the electrodes on the threads, um, are sending, uh, neuron spikes, neuron signals. And through my... So, it's all implanted in my motor cortex. Through my intentions, so say if I wanna try to, you know, move my hand left, right, up, down, I can't really move it. I have, like, a little bit of movement in my hand, but I can't really move it. But the neurons are still firing. That intention is still there. So, like, those signals are being sent, there's just a cutoff in my spinal cord, so obviously it's not getting down. Um, but it's still, it's still going on in my brain, and those electrodes are picking up those signals, and there's an algorithm, um, like machine learning going on in the background that is, um, you know, taking those intentions, and over time, it is learning what I'm trying to do, and that translates to cursor control. So-

   7. JRJoe Rogan10:43

      Oh, shit.

   8. NANoland Arbaugh10:44

      Yeah, so if I wanna try to move the cursor to the left, I move my hand to the left, but that's not necessarily what I would need to do. If I wanted to move the cursor to the left, I could kick my foot or I could do any sort of, like, motor action to train it to learn that's what I want it to do, to go left.

   9. JRJoe Rogan11:01

      Oh.

   10. NANoland Arbaugh11:01

       So, there will be, um, like, a visual on the screen that says, um, like, "Move your hand to the left," and then they will train that left movement to left on the cursor control. But that visual could be anything. It could be, like, do a little jig and that'll move it to the left. Like, anything that it can do, um, anything you can do, I mean, it can learn, and you can map that to anything with the cursor.

   11. JRJoe Rogan11:25

       So, does this include facial movements? Does it-

   12. NANoland Arbaugh11:28

       Yeah. Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan11:29

       So you can, like, move it with your nose?

   14. NANoland Arbaugh11:30

       Yeah, I, um, I'm pretty sure. Like, uh, we haven't tried anything like that. We haven't tried, you know, a lot of stuff. This is very, very, um... Like, it's still very new, so there are things that, you know, we've...We're working on what works well at this point, so like, a lot of it is, uh, like my right-hand stuff. We have mapped a lot of things to, like, individual fingers, um, hand movements in general, but we've done, like, left-hand stuff, we've done, like, foot kick stuff, and it doesn't look like the signals are as good, but that also might be, um, just due to the fact that some of the threads are pulled out. So, when they fix that issue, uh, with the next people, then those things would be much, much better. And w- if that's the case, then you could theoretically do multiple things at once. It's not just, you know, you map, say, my right hand to the cursor control, then you map my fingers, uh, in my other hand and my toes to, um, like, key control. So I could be moving the cursor and typing at the same time with my toes or something.

   15. JRJoe Rogan12:32

       Wow.

   16. NANoland Arbaugh12:32

       Yeah. There's, there's a lot, a lot to, uh, explore with this.

   17. JRJoe Rogan12:37

       It's so interesting that it's tied to your mind telling different parts of your body to move. I c- I'm very, obviously very ignorant to this stuff.

   18. NANoland Arbaugh12:47

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JRJoe Rogan12:48

       I thought like you were just using your mind and telling the cursor to go around.

   20. NANoland Arbaugh12:52

       Yeah, so it's something ... That is true. So it's something that, um, we differentiate. Um, there are what are called attempted movements and imagined movements. So at the very beginning, I did a lot of attempted movement. Attempted movement is just what it sounds like. I attempt to move my hand in a certain direction. I attempt to move my fingers, like lift your finger up, down, left, right. I attempt to do something, and then the algorithm will take that and translate it to cursor control. But what I realized maybe a few weeks in was that I could just think, "cursor go here," and it would move. Um, that, it blew my mind when that happened for the first time. Like, l- like I said, with, um, everything going on in my brain, all of it still works. All the signals are still there. Like, I think something to try to move, and the signal gets sent. So when I'm attempting to move my hand and the cursor's moving and it's moving basically where I want it to, I'm like, "Yeah, that makes sense." It didn't really shock me that it worked. I, I assumed that it would work because all the signals are still working. It's just my spinal cord that's jacked up. Um, but when I moved it for the first time with my mind without attempting to move it all, it ... I, like I was giddy the entire day. I could not believe what had just happened, and I think we're gonna find that with a lot of things. Um, right now, we are doing like, I'm, I'm trying to map, um, like sign language, uh, like the sign language alphabet in order to text, um, like write words and stuff. And it's pretty promising. It w- worked. I'm sure there's a video out there of me somewhere that Neuralink has of me spelling a, a couple words, um, with sign language. Uh-

   21. JRJoe Rogan14:45

       Wow, so you're thinking in your mind or you're trying to get your hands-

   22. NANoland Arbaugh14:50

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan14:50

       ... to make the signs of sign language-

   24. NANoland Arbaugh14:53

       Yep.

   25. JRJoe Rogan14:53

       ... and then the computer interprets that-

   26. NANoland Arbaugh14:54

       Yep.

   27. JRJoe Rogan14:55

       ... as the language and types it out.

   28. NANoland Arbaugh14:56

       Yep, and I think the same thing is gonna happen where I went from attempting to move my hand to imagining just moving the cursor. I think it's gonna be the same way with the texting. I'm not, I haven't had this, um, confirmed yet, but I don't see why not. I think at some point, the computer's gonna learn, like me trying to do certain letters, if, uh, like attempting it, at some point, I'm just gonna think that letter instead of actually trying to move, and it'll-

   29. JRJoe Rogan15:23

       Oh.

   30. NANoland Arbaugh15:23

       ... type it.
6. 17:54 – 21:17

   Life as a quadriplegic: injury details, independence, and stem-cell possibilities

   1. JRJoe Rogan17:54

      Now, what is the extent of your injury?

   2. NANoland Arbaugh17:58

      Hmm. Sorry. Um-

   3. JRJoe Rogan18:04

      No worries.

   4. NANoland Arbaugh18:06

      ... I dislocated my C4, C5, um, in a ... People keep calling it a diving accident. It wasn't really a diving accident, it was just sort of like a freak accident while I was swimming in the lake. Um, so I dislocated my C4, C5, which they told me was good because I didn't sever my spinal cord. It was just kinda like my spinal cord like bounced outta place for, you know, a split second then hopped right back, um, where it was supposed to be. And so I cannot move, uh, anything. I have no control or sensation below my shoulders. I got a little bit back, like I can move my hand a little bit, but not enough to do anything. Like I couldn't control a joystick or anything. Um, so yeah, no- no movement or sensation below my shoulders.

   5. JRJoe Rogan18:50

      I- Is there anything that ... Have you looked into what they do with stem cells for-

   6. NANoland Arbaugh18:54

      Yeah. Yeah. I'm ... So I applied for studies, um, before Neuralink and I never got asked to be in any of them. I never- never even heard back from anyone, um, which is kind of what I assumed would happen with Neuralink, honestly. Um, but I had applied for things because I obviously don't wanna be paralyzed anymore, I don't wanna be a quadriplegic. So, um, it would be great if I could get into something and have them fix as much of me as possible. I mean, even if I had more control over my hands, the amount of things that I could do would like skyrocket, like in order of magnitude, um, better. And my life would be better. My independence would be better. Everything.

   7. JRJoe Rogan19:33

      Yeah, I don't ... I mean, I don't think it would hurt to try.

   8. NANoland Arbaugh19:37

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan19:37

      And I- ... Are you familiar with a lot of these clinics, like the Cellular Performance Institute in Mexico?

   10. NANoland Arbaugh19:42

       Uh, no. No.

   11. JRJoe Rogan19:44

       They do a lot of UFC fighters. Um, uh, they do ... Like you can do things in other countries that you're not allowed to do in America-

   12. NANoland Arbaugh19:51

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan19:51

       ... because of, you know, regulations.

   14. NANoland Arbaugh19:53

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan19:53

       But what they're able to do down there is they're- they're going right into disks and they're re- alleviating people's disk problems, where they're actually making the disks grow larger-

   16. NANoland Arbaugh20:04

       Oh, wow.

   17. JRJoe Rogan20:04

       ... and heal people with back injuries.

   18. NANoland Arbaugh20:07

       Hmm.

   19. JRJoe Rogan20:07

       And I know I've read things about spinal cord injuries and improvements, but I would love to connect you with them and they ... You know, they're the experts on this. They'd be able to tell you like what- what the state of the art, in terms of like what the research shows that stem cells can and can't do.

   20. NANoland Arbaugh20:22

       Yeah. Y-

   21. JRJoe Rogan20:23

       I- I don't think it could hurt. I mean, it's-

   22. NANoland Arbaugh20:24

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan20:24

       ... just a healing thing, right? If you're-

   24. NANoland Arbaugh20:26

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan20:26

       ... getting some sensation, a little bit better movement, maybe they could accelerate that.

   26. NANoland Arbaugh20:30

       Yeah, that would be great. Um-

   27. JRJoe Rogan20:31

       I'll connect you with them.

   28. NANoland Arbaugh20:32

       Cool. I don't know if I'm allowed to at this point, 'cause I'm-

   29. JRJoe Rogan20:34

       Oh, really?

   30. NANoland Arbaugh20:35

       ... 'cause I'm in the Neuralink study. I'm not sure that-
7. 21:17 – 23:20

   Beyond cursor control: restoring movement with a “bridge” between brain and spinal cord

   1. JRJoe Rogan21:17

      I get it. Um, is there, uh, a hope in the future of utilizing this technology to help people regain movement?

   2. NANoland Arbaugh21:26

      Yeah. Yeah, that's one of the plans. Uh, I don't know if you've seen anything on it. Basically, they do something similar to what the stem cell ... um, a lot of the stem cell research is. A lot of the stem cell stuff is, you know, implant stem cells above and below the level of injury, and those stem cells will migrate basically and create a bridge. Um, some of them have even, uh, talked about injecting right into the level of injury. So, um, with the Neuralink, the plan is to implant one in the brain and then implant one below the level of injury and then the Neuralinks will just talk right to each other. Um-

   3. JRJoe Rogan21:59

      Wow.

   4. NANoland Arbaugh21:59

      ... all the brain signals that are ... that it's picking up in the brain, wherever, you know, it's implanted, motor cortex in this point, um, in this scenario, would go straight to the other one and it would send it right through your body like it should.

   5. JRJoe Rogan22:12

      And are they ... Do they have a plan on when to try this?

   6. NANoland Arbaugh22:16

      They're already trying it in animals. Um, they have one in a pig, you can watch the video of it, where basically, um, they have an implant in the pig's brain and an implant in the pig's spinal cord, I think, in the thoracic section of the spinal cord, and they have been moving the pig's like legs, um, on its own. The pig's not paralyzed or anything, but basically they like tell the pig, "Come to this section of ..." You know, they like grid off the floor and they put food in a section of the grid and they're like, "If you're okay with us testing on you, pig, come over here," basically. And the pig will go in there and then they will take control of the pig's leg and they will like start playing around with it, like m- making the pig ... Yeah, so this right here. Um, so all those movements right there, the pig's leg are them. Um, they're doing it. So, um, and this is just the beginning, obviously.

   7. JRJoe Rogan23:10

      So this is flexor movement it's saying. It's saying-

   8. NANoland Arbaugh23:12

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan23:12

      And the pig is lifting its leg up unconsciously.

   10. NANoland Arbaugh23:15

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan23:15

       It's not doing it on-

   12. NANoland Arbaugh23:16

       Yep.

   13. JRJoe Rogan23:16

       ... its own.

   14. NANoland Arbaugh23:16

       Nope. They're- they're doing it all.

8. 23:20 – 32:32

   Hacking fears and media “gotchas”: security, politics, and Elon Musk baggage

   1. JRJoe Rogan23:20

      Dude, how long before they can hijack people?

   2. NANoland Arbaugh23:23

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan23:23

      How long before the CIA can hack into you?

   4. NANoland Arbaugh23:25

      Yeah, I know, right?

   5. JRJoe Rogan23:26

      That's like ... I mean, uh, that is the ultimate fear of human beings becoming cyborgs, is that we're- we're gonna be subject to all the problems that our computers and our phones have, with malware-

   6. NANoland Arbaugh23:37

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan23:37

      ... and spyware and-

   8. NANoland Arbaugh23:38

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan23:38

      ... hacking.

   10. NANoland Arbaugh23:38

       I mean, people- people ask me all the time if this thing can be hacked and short answer is yes. Um, but at this point at least, hacking this wouldn't really do much. Um, you might be able to see, like some of the brain signals. You might be able to see some of the data that Neuralink's collecting, and then you might be able to control my cursor on my screen and make me look at weird stuff, but that's about it.I mean-

   11. JRJoe Rogan24:04

       Hmm.

   12. NANoland Arbaugh24:04

       ... I guess you could go in and, like, look through, look through my, like, messages, emails, something like that. But I'd also have to be, like, connected already. So, if I'm not connected to my computer or anything, you can't get in there on your own. Um, so it'd have to be a time when I am on it and you are able to hack it, and then-

   13. JRJoe Rogan24:21

       You're giving it, basically, a guidebook on how to ruin your life.

   14. NANoland Arbaugh24:24

       Yeah. Yeah, I know. I know. It, it's fine, like- (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan24:25

       It's gonna crank up the volume and put gay porn on full blast.

   16. NANoland Arbaugh24:28

       It... I think... Yeah. (laughs) meatspin.com.

   17. JRJoe Rogan24:30

       (laughs)

   18. NANoland Arbaugh24:31

       Um, yeah. I mean, it, it, it is what it is, I think.

   19. JRJoe Rogan24:35

       It is what it is.

   20. NANoland Arbaugh24:36

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan24:36

       Yeah.

   22. NANoland Arbaugh24:36

       I think if it happens, it happens. I've... It's something that they had to tell me about before I got into the study, like, "This is possible," but I'm not worried about it.

   23. JRJoe Rogan24:43

       What kind of a piece of shit would they be to hack your brain?

   24. NANoland Arbaugh24:46

       Yeah. Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan24:46

       Get the fuck out of here, people.

   26. NANoland Arbaugh24:47

       Yeah, I know, right?

   27. JRJoe Rogan24:47

       There's, there's plenty of bankers out there stealing money.

   28. NANoland Arbaugh24:50

       Yeah, I know, right? (laughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan24:50

       Go concentrate on them. (laughs)

   30. NANoland Arbaugh24:52

       (laughs) I've... You know, a- along that line, it's something I've thought a lot about, um, with, like, doing interviews and stuff, is, like, some of the people that I've done interviews with, interviews with, I'm like, "Are they gonna try to attack me to get to, like, Elon Musk or something? Are they gonna say things about me, um, or, like, you know, try to do, like, a 'getcha' on me, gotcha sorta thing?"
9. 32:32 – 51:21

   Blindsight and artificial vision: monkeys, tooth-eye surgery, and animal-testing ethics

   1. JRJoe Rogan32:32

      Have they done any of that on animals yet?

   2. NANoland Arbaugh32:34

      Um, I'm not sure. I know that what, uh, the plan is. Like, they did a talk about it a while ago, um, on, like, a show and tell. They basically show how, um, like, the ... how the Neuralink works in my brain would be very, very similar. You would just, uh, take ... You would ... You would, like, activate certain parts of the brain or, um, behind the eye, uh, the part of the brain, the part of the eye that, um, dictate sight and stuff. You would activate certain things in order to display what's going on around the world to someone, to the back of someone's eye, to their retina, whatever it is. I don't know much about it. But they have done it. Um, oh, they did it with, uh, monkeys actually. Yeah. So there's a video of, um, them lighting up parts of a screen and, uh, they have, like, basically an eye tracker in the monkey. And so the monkey will look to different parts of the screen and, um, uh, like wherever they've lit up on the brain basically. So whatever is going ... What- whatever implant they have in the brain, they will, like, light up somewhere on the brain and it ... then they'll light it up on the screen and the monkey will look there. And then at some point, they stop lighting it up on the screen and they're just lighting it up in the monkey's brain and the monkey still looks there.

   3. JRJoe Rogan33:51

      Wow.

   4. NANoland Arbaugh33:52

      So yeah. So they know that they can do these sorts of things. Um, uh, yeah. It, it's, it's amazing. I know that there are other companies that have done something similar to this too, um, with, like, giving people, uh, like helping people with their eyesight. I know one of them, like, went under, which was ... it was just a wild story of basically about a company who had implanted things in people and the company went under, and then the people in the study were like, "Well, what do we do now?" Um, and they didn't know if they were just gonna, like, continue. That's one of the things about, like, Neuralink.

   5. JRJoe Rogan34:23

      Whoa.

   6. NANoland Arbaugh34:23

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan34:24

      Yeah. I should mention that-

   8. NANoland Arbaugh34:26

      There you go.

   9. JRJoe Rogan34:26

      ... the Blindsight implant is already working in monkeys. The resolution will be low at first, like early Nintendo graphics, but ultimately may exceed normal human vision. Holy shit.

   10. NANoland Arbaugh34:35

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan34:35

       Also, no monkey has died or been seriously injured by a Neuralink device.

   12. NANoland Arbaugh34:39

       Oh, look at that. March 21st.

   13. JRJoe Rogan34:41

       By a Neuralink device.

   14. NANoland Arbaugh34:43

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan34:43

       Right. But they did have to kill the monkeys that they or- originally did studies on, right?

   16. NANoland Arbaugh34:49

       L- yeah. Do you know much about, like, studying with animals-

   17. JRJoe Rogan34:52

       Yes.

   18. NANoland Arbaugh34:52

       ... and stuff like that?

   19. JRJoe Rogan34:53

       Yeah, you have to kill them to find out-

   20. NANoland Arbaugh34:54

       Just-

   21. JRJoe Rogan34:54

       ... what damage you've done to them.

   22. NANoland Arbaugh34:56

       Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Well, like-

   23. JRJoe Rogan34:57

       Yeah.

   24. NANoland Arbaugh34:58

       Basically all, all animals that, um, are in studies at some point get ... I think they have a really terrible term for it. I think they call them ... call it sacrifice.

   25. JRJoe Rogan35:07

       Whoa.

   26. NANoland Arbaugh35:07

       So they, like, sacrifice animals.

   27. JRJoe Rogan35:08

       That's satanic.

   28. NANoland Arbaugh35:09

       Yeah. (laughs) It's, it's crazy.

   29. JRJoe Rogan35:10

       Come up with a new word, guys.

   30. NANoland Arbaugh35:11

       Yeah. I know, right?
10. 51:21 – 1:09:10

    If healthy people get implants: clinics, upgrades, regulation, and deepfake reality

    1. JRJoe Rogan51:21

       Wow. And I know in the future, they've talked about putting this into people that don't have any issues medically.

    2. NANoland Arbaugh51:31

       Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

    3. JRJoe Rogan51:32

       What are they planning on doing? Like, how are they planning on that, do you know?

    4. NANoland Arbaugh51:35

       What do you mean how? Like-

    5. JRJoe Rogan51:36

       In terms of, like, is that gonna just be offered for... Are y- y- you gonna get... What- what-... What are the long-term goals? Is it to get the internet on that? Is it so people communicate te- telepathically?

    6. NANoland Arbaugh51:46

       Yeah.

    7. JRJoe Rogan51:46

       Is it gonna be, like, a slow build-up to the idea that everyone is gonna wanna get one of these things?

    8. NANoland Arbaugh51:51

       Hm, I think once it's proved... So, like, this- this study is to prove whether or not it's safe and if it works, basically. I think once that's proven, then they're gonna get into a lot more of what it's actually capable of, and then once it's released to the public, I think, I think people are gonna rush to get it, honestly. Um, at least a group of people who have been following it, at the very least. 'Cause once we know that it's safe, then that's one of the big things that people are gonna, like... Once that's lifted, once you're like, "Okay, it's safe," now we can go through and start talking about being able to communicate with people and being able to, you know, possibly download information or have it be available to you, um, using AI and stuff like that. I'm not sure if that's gonna happen. I don't see why it's not possible, at the very least. And then they-... I know Neuralink's talking about opening up a clinic in Austin basically where you would go in and get a surgery and, like, walk out, um, so it's not like... Like, my surgery was, like, I don't wanna say not invasive 'cause obviously they did brain surgery, but, um, it was-... They were expecting it to be, you know, s- something like three to six hours, and my surgery took under two hours. It went super, super fast. Uh, there were no complications at all. It was not, um, like, obviously invasive in the brain, but there was no damage done really. So, uh, and this was the very first time. So, once they get this even better, even more tuned in, then I imagine people going to this clinic and going in and come out in a few hours with a Neuralink, and then they can chat with all their friends online or something like that.

    9. JRJoe Rogan53:26

       Jesus. (laughs)

    10. NANoland Arbaugh53:27

        Yeah. It'd be pretty cool. It'd be pretty cool. Again, I'm not, I'm not here to talk about, like, the ethical ramifications of that or, like, how- how-... It's fun to think about, like, the things that, um, might go wrong or could go wrong, and it's probably something that people much smarter than me should think about, whether or not it should be done, but, um, I think there are so many things that, uh, you could do with it.

    11. JRJoe Rogan53:52

        I think it's going to be done no matter what.

    12. NANoland Arbaugh53:54

        Yeah.

    13. JRJoe Rogan53:54

        And if it's not done by Neuralink, it's gonna be done by someone in another country.

    14. NANoland Arbaugh53:59

        Yeah.

    15. JRJoe Rogan53:59

        It's going to be done. Technology always-

    16. NANoland Arbaugh54:02

        Mm-hmm.

    17. JRJoe Rogan54:02

        ... moves forward. It never stops over concerns of what could possibly go wrong.

    18. NANoland Arbaugh54:06

        Yeah.

    19. JRJoe Rogan54:06

        Hence the nuclear bomb.

    20. NANoland Arbaugh54:08

        Yeah.

    21. JRJoe Rogan54:08

        Yeah, it's not gonna stop.

    22. NANoland Arbaugh54:09

        Yeah.

    23. JRJoe Rogan54:10

        It's just not what we do. We- we- we always try to come up with greater things, and if someone does figure out a way to connect human beings to some form of wireless internet or wireless data or some completely new thing instead of thinking it as the internet as we know it, being these devices that go to websites, it might be a completely different invention that uses a completely different type of technology to sync all the information and all the minds-

    24. NANoland Arbaugh54:38

        Hm.

    25. JRJoe Rogan54:39

        ... in the world together. You know, it might not-

    26. NANoland Arbaugh54:41

        Yeah.

    27. JRJoe Rogan54:42

        ... be as dopey as going to a website. Like, going to a website is probably, like, an archaic way to do it.

    28. NANoland Arbaugh54:47

        Yeah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan54:48

        You know?

    30. NANoland Arbaugh54:49

        It'll be like-... It'll be like the cloud or the met-... the Metaverse or something. You can just hop in and-... everyone will be there. You can go chat with whoever you want around the world.
11. 1:09:10 – 1:20:24

    Gaming with Neuralink: Civilization, Mario Kart, ‘aimbot brain,’ VR, and Optimus dreams

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:09:10

       You know? And how cool was it the first day to be able to play video games?

    2. NANoland Arbaugh1:09:16

       Yeah, it was awesome. (laughs) It was really, really cool.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:09:18

       What did you play?

    4. NANoland Arbaugh1:09:19

       Um, uh, Civilization VI.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:09:21

       (laughs)

    6. NANoland Arbaugh1:09:22

       I don't know, I don't know if you've heard of it. It's a massive game. It's something I've been wanting to play for a long time. I was able to kinda sorta play it with some different assistive technology over the last few years, but not really. And I played it, like, all night. I didn't sleep. It was freaking awesome. Um, man, I just love... I mean, I grew up being a gamer. I grew up in kinda this age. So the last eight years, I've watched all of my friends play games that I've wanted to play, and the fact that I might be able to play some of them, like, some of them are still, uh, too far out of reach for the Neuralink at this point, but not for much longer. In the next few years, I think I'll be able to play anything anyone else plays, so.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:09:58

       Halo.

    8. NANoland Arbaugh1:09:59

       I love Halo. I'm a big Halo guy.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:10:01

       (laughs) Are you gonna be able-

    10. NANoland Arbaugh1:10:02

        Yeah.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:10:02

        ... to play that?

    12. NANoland Arbaugh1:10:02

        Yeah, I hope so.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:10:03

        Wow.

    14. NANoland Arbaugh1:10:03

        I really hope so. Yeah, that would be sick.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:10:06

        So you'll be able to play shooters like Call of Duty?

    16. NANoland Arbaugh1:10:07

        Yeah, yeah. That's, that brings up another thing. Like, I basically have an aim bot in my head, so.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:10:13

        Oh.

    18. NANoland Arbaugh1:10:14

        Yeah, so.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:10:14

        That's crazy.

    20. NANoland Arbaugh1:10:15

        They'll probably, yeah, they'll probably have, like, different leagues, uh, for people like me because it's just not fair. Um...

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:10:23

        Wow. Is it that accurate?

    22. NANoland Arbaugh1:10:25

        It's that accurate and-

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:10:26

        Wow.

    24. NANoland Arbaugh1:10:26

        ... it's, and it's faster. One thing that I found with the Neuralink is something that, uh, kinda blew my mind too, is that when I'm attempting to do stuff sometimes or I'm thinking it to, like, move in a certain place, sometimes it's so good that it's moving before I even, like, think it to move. It's almost like if you think about moving your hand, um, the signal is basically already being sent before you move your hand. Like, your, your mind is saying, "Okay, he's about to move his hand," basically. So the signal needs to be sent all the way down and back up in order for y- for you to move your hand. So the speed that all that happens, and it's almost a little preemptive, I saw that with the Neuralink where it was moving the cursor before I was actually moving my hand, say.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:11:16

        Wow.

    26. NANoland Arbaugh1:11:17

        So with video games, stuff like that, you just need to think for it to move somewhere and it is that accurate and it's quicker than you can even think. So there's no way it's gonna, like, no one else is gonna be able to keep up with it.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:11:31

        That's gonna be wild for something like Quake.

    28. NANoland Arbaugh1:11:34

        Yeah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:11:34

        Like a, a first person, like a fast first-person shooter.

    30. NANoland Arbaugh1:11:37

        Yeah.

Episode duration: 1:36:05