EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,045 words- 0:00 – 15:00
(drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast,…
- JRJoe Rogan
(drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.
- MLMax Lugavere
The Joe Rogan Experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music plays) What's up, Max? How are you? It's good to see you.
- MLMax Lugavere
So good to- I know.
- JRJoe Rogan
What's cracking?
- MLMax Lugavere
Oh, man. Just, uh, first of all, honored to be here.
- JRJoe Rogan
Thank you. Honored to have you.
- MLMax Lugavere
Love you and your work, and yeah, I mean, just a national treasure. So-
- JRJoe Rogan
Thank- that's very nice of you.
- MLMax Lugavere
... go out on a limb and say it. But, um, no, I'm super, super excited because I've been working on this documentary for the last 10 years of my life, and, um, it's finally out today, which, uh, I'm super pumped for, and it's called Little Empty Boxes. And we talked about it the, the last time I was here.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MLMax Lugavere
And, um, it's a project that means the world to me. I think it's the most important thing I've ever done, and it's the first-ever dementia prevention documentary about the science of dementia prevention, but it focuses... It's a very emotional and personal film for me because it follows my mom, who, for many years, suffered from a rare form of dementia called Lewy body dementia, which is akin to having both Parkinson's disease and Alzheimer's disease at the same time.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's what Robin Williams had.
- MLMax Lugavere
That's what Robin Williams had, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MLMax Lugavere
And it's a, it's a rare condition. It affects about one million people in the United States, but it's a, um, it's a dementia, and dementia is now a soaring public health problem. And there's a lot of controversy in- within the field. Um, the last time I was here, we talked about, you know, fraud in the, um, in the research space with regard to the prevailing hypothesis as to what causes Alzheimer's disease, which is the most common form of dementia. And actually, finally, over the past month, that paper was finally retracted. It took two years. But, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Could you explain to everybody what the fraud was?
- MLMax Lugavere
Yeah, so basically, among the dementias, Alzheimer's disease is the most common form of it, and that affects about six million people in the United States. And since it was first named in 1906 by physician Alois Alzheimer, the prevailing hypothesis as to what causes Alzheimer's disease, dubbed the amyloid hypothesis, has been that this plaque formed by a precursor protein called amyloid-beta accumulates in the brain, and by finding a drug that can potentially remove, extract that, that, those plaques from the brain, from the extracellular space around neurons, that we could essentially cure the disease, that the, that the causal factor in the condition was this, was ultimately this amyloid-beta protein which forms the plaque. And trial after trial has been a, a dismal, had been a dismal failure, and it wasn't looking good until in, um, 2006, a paper was published in Nature, which for any scientist publishing in Nature, it's like winning an Academy Award. And that paper, essentially, what that did was it, it allegedly identified this variant of amyloid-beta that connected the plaque to the cognitive dysfunction. So the most important clinical feature of Alzheimer's disease. Because for a long time, it was known that cognitively healthy people accumulate plaque in their brains, and that plaque doesn't seem to correlate with cognitive impairment or anything like that. And so that was very deflating for researchers in the field until this 2006 paper came out, and what it did was it renewed faith in this, in this hypothesis, which was always a hypothesis, and continued to send billions and billions of dollars worth of funding down this path. And what turned out to be the case just two years ago was that that paper was essentially fraudulent, and it represented about 16 years worth of wasted time, wasted money, which was hugely deflating for not just the research community, but also for any patient who's ever suffered from Alzheimer's disease. And, you know, the way that the field is now slowly starting to turn, but this is a drum that I've been beating for the past 10 years, is that we really need to start talking about these conditions in terms of prevention. And that's what inspired me to set down this path of creating this documentary, Little Empty Boxes.
- JRJoe Rogan
What was the fraud? Like, what, what, how did they do it?
- MLMax Lugavere
So basically, the, in the paper, there were, they identified these proteins that they isolated in rat models of the condition, mouse models the con- of the condition, called Aß, A-beta*56. Again, amyloid is, amyloid is there at the scene of the crime, so to speak. So when you have Alzheimer's disease, somebody who's died of Alzheimer's disease, what they, what they find inevitably in the brains of cadavers who've died from Alzheimer's disease are two features. They see this aggregation of these plaques, amyloid-beta plaques, and tangled proteins called tau. And so it was a very seductive narrative that this plaque causes the condition, right? For years. The problem is they've succeeded at reducing the plaque in the brains of people with Alzheimer's disease, but that hasn't led to any improvement in the clinically meaningful features of the disease that we, that we aspire to improve for sufferers of Alzheimer's disease, right? The cognitive, the cognitive function. And in tandem with that, we see that amyloid is produced naturally in all brains, and people who are cognitively healthy have amyloid in their brains. There's a degree of amyloid burden that seems to be inevitable as a, as, um, a f- as a just general phenomena due to aging. And so it, it was very, it was becoming very clear that amyloid is not the causative feature here, that there is some other factor or factors at play which lead to cognitive degeneration, until 2006. And, and then i- in 2006, what happened, this paper basically found this subtype that when injected into a mouse caused profound cognitive dysfunction.And what they did was they illustrated these proteins on what are called we- a, a, w- in what's called a Western blot analysis, which is basi- basically a graphical depiction of proteins. And, um, the peer review process for papers, I mean, they, people go in and they crunch the numbers and stuff, but they don't look at, like, imagery and they don't, they don't look with a f- they don't go through the imagery with a fine-tooth comb to make sure that it hasn't been photoshopped, essentially. But one sleuth, who is a scientist himself, um, this researcher, uh, from Vanderbilt named Matthew Schrag, actually identified that a lot of these images had artifacts that made it very clear that they were faked.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- MLMax Lugavere
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So full-on fraud?
- MLMax Lugavere
Full-on. Full-on fraud. And by the wa- and it was a, it's o- it's been two years. It took two years for that paper finally to be retracted.
- JRJoe Rogan
Are there any consequences towards the people that published that paper?
- MLMax Lugavere
I mean, it's obviously they have a lot of egg on their face, so to speak. I mean, it's very, it's, it's hugely humiliating. Um, but no, I don't think that there's-
- JRJoe Rogan
They're still employed?
- MLMax Lugavere
They're ... Yeah. The lead researcher, still employed. I mean, they're, they're investigating Sylvain Lesne, who's a University of, uh ... He is a, I wanna say Michigan? Not Michigan. Um, it'll come to me. But the, the, the, the primary researcher is being investigated, um, as far as I know.
- JRJoe Rogan
So the primary r- researcher, they're connecting to the photoshop? They're-
- MLMax Lugavere
Yeah.
- 15:00 – 30:00
One in four? …
- MLMax Lugavere
for me, that's when I knew that something was really wrong and that I needed to step in. 'Cause you know when you're sick, it is a really... That's a really scary place to be. It could be frustrating, it could be confusing, and you know, when you're in these doctor's offices and they're, you know... Oftentimes they don't have the best bedside manner and they run a battery of esoteric tests. It can be incredibly overwhelming and it becomes really hard to advocate for yourself, I've learned, as somebody with a chronic illness, not least of which a chronic illness that's affecting your cognition. And so I decided at that point, um, essentially that I had to pack up my LA life. I moved back to New York and I started going with my mom from doctor's visit to doctor's visit. And again, you know, I'm pretty privileged, grew up in New York City. My mom had health insurance resources. We started going, you know, to all of these different cathedrals to Western medicine, academic medical insight. And in every instance I experienced what I've come to call over time, adios- diagnose and adios. And so the physician would, you know, run these tests, titrate up the dose of a medication that she was already on. One physician actually thought that all of her symptoms were due to depression, right? There's this, like, idea of the hysterical woman. Today one in four women over the age of 40 are on an antidepressant drug, you know? So one-
- JRJoe Rogan
One in four?
- MLMax Lugavere
Yeah. Over the age of 40.
- JRJoe Rogan
Jesus Christ.
- MLMax Lugavere
Yeah. They're... I mean, I'm not saying there's no use for them, those kinds of drugs-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MLMax Lugavere
... but they're very over- overprescribed. Um, that's not, that's not... I don't think that's controversial. And so my mom was given one of these drugs without full informed consent, I don't think. I mean, ultimately we tried to get her off of them, which we found out was incredibly difficult to do. Titrating off one of these SSRIs is really, really hard actually. And it turned out obviously to be, to be the case that my mom... That these symptoms were not due to depression. They were due to degeneration in her brain. And we went from doctor's office to doctor's office, ultimately culminating in a trip to the Cleveland Clinic. So just imagine, like, we're in New York City, right? We have like multiple hospitals at our, at our disposal. We had to book a trip to the Cleveland Clinic and it was there that for the first time my mom was diagnosed with a neurodegenerative condition. So she was prescribed drugs for both Alzheimer's disease and Parkinson's disease at that time. And that to me was... I'd never... I've always been a pretty chill guy but that was the first time in my life I'd ever, I've- I've ever had a panic attack just googling the drugs. You know, like a scared... Like any scared kid would do when their mom receives a li- a life changing diagnosis. And um, and that was the moment for me that I realized that my life had to pivot and I, I had no choice but to dedicate myself to learning all that I could about these conditions.
- JRJoe Rogan
And so you find out about the fraud, and how long into your research did you find out that most of what people understood about the condition was based on this fraudulent study?
- MLMax Lugavere
Well, it's not even just the study. It's the fact that these conditions begin decades before the emergence of symptoms. So, you know, again, it's a, it's a disease of, of midlife essentially. The- the- the Alzheimer's disease begins 20 to 30 years, if not more before the- the first symptom. And so to me it became very clear that we were approaching these conditions in the wrong way, you know, trying to-... acting in a, in a reactionary way to something that had taken decades to manifest, to me, just seemed wrong. And I stumbled upon the work of a neurologist at Weill Cornell New York-Presbyterian who was talking about Alzheimer's disease as a preventable condition, which is not something that I'd heard prior to coming across his work. And I realized at that time that this was, like, considered, 10 years ago, a fringe idea. Dementia prevention was, like, a fringe idea, except for through the lens of this neurologist who was working within the confines of, you know, rigorous randomized research and, you know, and checking all the boxes for scientific credibility. And, um, and so to me it became really, it became really clear that, that this is a topic that I needed to help amplify using my skillset as a non-medical doctor, as a non-academic scientist. And I also learned really early on that it's not a genetic condition, that we have genetic risk factors, but that, um, that we have a say when it comes to our cognitive destiny, that this is not a natural part of aging. I mean, uh, you know, everything in the body as you get older tends to falter in its functionality. You know, like, our joints don't work as well. And, you know, there is a degree of forgetfulness that I think is in a, in a way a natural aspect of getting older, but cognitive impairment, that's not natural. Degeneration of our, of our neurons of, you know, of, for example, the portion of the brain that cr- that drives movement, the substantia nigra, which is, which occurs in Parkinson's disease, that's not normal. And so it began this investigation for me, trying to understand, because I was seeing the person who meant the most to me of anybody in life, you know, degenerating every day in front of my face, getting worse and worse and worse. It- it instilled this- this burning desire in me to understand all that I could and to share, to pro- ch- in the hopes that it might prevent it from happening to others. And, um, and yeah, it was also very odd because my, um, my maternal grandmother did not have dementia. So, it was really sad and, and surreal, in fact, that my mom was increasingly requiring around-the-clock care while her mother, who lived in the same home and was 30 years older, was cognitively totally healthy. It was just the, it was just the oddest thing. My, my, my grandmother, my mom's mom, was in her 90s and totally cognitively healthy, able to ha- form cogent sentences. And my mom was struggling to express an idea, to get out of a bathroom. And it just, to me, it was, it was so shocking that I, you know, it was like, it was traumatic. I mean, I still have PTSD, I think, from, from those days, but it, it's, yeah, it's motivated me to, to do what I can to help. And I saw all in, in every ... You know, by the end of my mom's life, she was on 14 different pharmaceuticals. And I'm not, I'm not anti-pharma. Like, if, if there was a drug that would have actually helped my mom, I would have been first in line at the pharmacy to, to fill that prescription for her. But the drugs don't work at all, and physicians are very quick to, you know, to write a prescription, to, like, add a new drug to the arsenal. They're, they're very, um, reluctant to deprescribe. I've, I, uh, have never seen a prescription deprescribed to my mom. And by the end of her life, she was on 14 different pharmaceuticals. And there's nobody on earth that, that understands how all of those different drugs are interacting in an i- you know, in a, in a system that's going, growing increasingly frail. It was just really sad. And, you know, so I started to investigate these modifiable risk factors, you know, whether it's diet, dietary, diet related, which it, you know, in my mom's case, it may have had something to do with her diet over the years. It might have had nothing to do with her diet over the years. I'll never know. But also now, we're starting to see that air pollution is a major, um, contributor to neurodegeneration. We're starting to see now that, well, as of 2020, it was acknowledged that, um, exposure to air pollution is actually one of these newly identified model- modifiable risk factors for Alzheimer's disease. So, exposure to fine particulate matter, PM2.5, actually might cause Alzheimer's disease for some patients. And then most interestingly, and this is one of the things that I wanna talk about with you, which I came across the work of a, of a neurologist named Dr. Ray Dorsey, who's over at, um, University of Rochester, who's done a lot of work publishing on the link between environmental toxicants and Parkinson's disease. But Parkinson's disease is now the fastest growing brain disease. And my mom's condition actually had more in common with Parkinson's disease than it did Alzheimer's disease. She had Lewy body dementia, which is, has more in common with Parkinson's, even though they're, they're both dementia, um, Lewy body and, and, and, and Alzheimer's. But there's data now linking exposure to certain herbicides and pesticides to Parkinson's disease, dramatically increased risk, anywhere between three, two and a half to sixfold, um, increased risk.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which herbicides and pesticides?
- MLMax Lugavere
So, there's a pesticide called paraquat that there was a great article written in The Guardian by, um, a journalist named Carey Gillam, and I got to speak, uh, on a panel with her recently at a, at a scientific conference in DC called Brain and Environment. And paraquat is this compound that it's a, it's an herbicide that's produced in China, but its use is banned in China. We import it here.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- MLMax Lugavere
Yeah. It's crazy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh.
- MLMax Lugavere
We use it here and exposure, occupational exposure to this compound is associated with between two and a half to three times the risk for the development of Parkinson's disease. Related compounds are literally used in mouse models to create Parkinson's disease. And-... the company that has ... that creates it is ... has been under investigation for years. And what has now come to light is that they knew about the fact that these, that these, that th- these chemicals accumulate in the brain, in brain tissue, and they seem to selectively target the region of the brain associated with Parkinson's disease, the substantia nigra.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- MLMax Lugavere
It's very scary. And, um, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
What, um, crops are these used on? Is it specific crops? Is it specific foods to avoid or how do you know if those pesticides or herbicides are being used?
- MLMax Lugavere
Well, it's, it's the, the residues and the, the exposures that you get from eating them is very low. But we don't know what long-term exposure to those low levels is doing to us. I mean, my, my mo- my mother is somebody who never believed in organic produce, right? And organic is not perfect and natural compounds, some of them are the most dangerous compounds on earth. So I know, you know, some people listening might say, "Oh, you know, here we go with the appeal to nature fallacy." But it's very clear that occupational exposure is very hazardous. You have to be licensed, you have to use this stuff very carefully, but it ... some people actually use it to, to, to off themselves. I mean, it's like a, it's a really toxic compound. And we're now, we, we now have data suggesting that it creates this condition, that it s- selectively targets and, and destroys dopamine-producing neurons that, that, that mediate movement. And, um, and it's used, yeah, it's used in, in cereal grains, things like that. Um ...
- JRJoe Rogan
Why does, uh, cannabis oil have a profound effect on Parkinson's patients?
- MLMax Lugavere
You know, I don't, I don't know about cannabis oil, but I can tell you about nicotine. And nicotine is a very interesting compound from the vantage point of Parkinsonism. And I know, I mean, a lot of people, you know, love nicotine obviously for its, its cognitive boosting effects. Um, I'm not gonna say that it's a, it's a healthy compound. I mean, I think that it has cardiovascular repercussions, um, and the like, but there seems to be a ... and it, uh, and of course smoking is terrible for you, but-
- JRJoe Rogan
Cardiovascular, um, with the delivery method or just across the board?
- MLMax Lugavere
Nicotine by itself raises heart rate and it raises blood pressure acutely. Not by much, but, um, presumably, uh, pr- and it's vasoconstrictive as well, so it, you know, there's some evidence suggesting it, it impedes wound healing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MLMax Lugavere
Um, I will occasionally use nicotine as a, as a cognitive enhancer, but I also have ... I have chronic low back issues and, um, I think that, you know, for people with disc issues ... this is just a speculation, but I think that it's probably not a good idea to chronically use nicotine if you have disc issues which are already ... your discs and your back are already poorly vascularized and nicotine is a vasoconstrictor, vasoconstrictor. Um, and smoking, you know, increases your risk for Alzheimer's disease. Um, I'm not s- I don't think that there's a, uh, a ... that we've identified a relationship between pure nicotine and, well, pretty much anything. The, the, the research on pure nicotine by itself is pretty sparse. Most of the na- most of the research on, on the health effects of nicotine is confounded by smoking, which is obviously, obviously not good for you. But interestingly, there does seem to be an inverse relationship between nicotine use, even via smoking, and Parkinsonism. So people who smoke cigarettes seem to be protected, to some degree, against Parkinson's disease-
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- MLMax Lugavere
... which is very odd. And they've shown in mouse models that nicotine actually, when they use some of these mitochondrial toxins, some of these poisons like paraquat, right, or another one called MPTP, which is, has been used as a, as a street party drug, but it's actually profoundly neurotoxic. It, it's been shown to create chronic Parkinsonism with just acute use. Nicotine actually prevents that in those models. So it's been shown to somehow protect the brain from i- in some, in some regards, um, against Parkin- Parkinson's disease. So I wouldn't recommend using nicotine unless somebody ... and this is, again, a speculation, but my, my hypothesis is that if you were, if you were exposed occupationally to some of these compounds like paraquat or rosinone or, um ... there are, there are other compounds that are being directly connected to Parkinson's disease too, like trichloroethylene, I would say maybe nicotine is a, is a potentially disease-modifying intervention in those contexts.
- JRJoe Rogan
So in these, uh, w- when they've studied patients, th- d- was there a small, like a noticeably smaller instance of people who developed Parkinson's who were smokers, or was it non-existent? Like ...
- MLMax Lugavere
They're, they're just ... I'm not sure the, the relative risk, um, decreased, but it's one of these odd things that seems pretty consistent in the literature that smokers are less likely to develop Parkinson's disease. There-
- JRJoe Rogan
By what factor?
- 30:00 – 45:00
Not p- a lot…
- JRJoe Rogan
are in- taking nicotine in different ways like cigars, uh, ch- gum, patches, things along those lines?
- MLMax Lugavere
Not p- a lot of the, a lot of the research on nicotine is in animal models unfortunately, um, but it is ... I mean, it does seem to do ... if you set the vascular effects aside, which might play a role, um, in neurodegeneration because, you know, the brain relies on its vascular network. The brain, you know, is a, is a very hungry organ and vascular dementia is the second most common form of dementia actually, but nicotine does seem to have some really protective effects on the brain. It seems to reduce neuron inflammation, um, it-... might act in a way as an antioxidant in the brain. I'm not recommending it 'cause th- there are risks, of course. But, um, but they've shown that it seems to be protective in these animal models against con- a- against these poisons that would otherwise cause Parkinsonism. And some other cool facts about nicotine actually, 'cause I did do a little bit of a deep dive recently into it 'cause, 'cause I do notice a, a cognitive benefit when I, when I use it. Nicotine-
- JRJoe Rogan
How do you use it?
- MLMax Lugavere
I just use it, I, uh, I use it, like, before-
- JRJoe Rogan
But what, in what form?
- MLMax Lugavere
A lozenge, like a little, like, you know, lozenge. Um, and, uh, and I don't have an addictive personality, so for me, I'm not, like, you know, it's not something that I feel compelled to do every day. But I do it, uh, before, like, I have to go on, like, a TV show or do a big podcast or something. And, um, and I do see, you know, I do definitely see, like, a, a cognitive be-, like a st- you know, it's a stimulant.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MLMax Lugavere
That's, um, that's pretty well-known. But, um, but yeah, nicotine also, it has a very short half-life, so its half-life is only about two hours. I mean, you compare that to coffee, coffee's is, like, eight hours. So it's, it's relatively transient in your system. But then, I think the more interesting compound is, uh, is its primary metabolite, which is called cotinine, which, its, cotinine's half-life is 20 hours long. And it seems to also boost cognitive function, mental health, uh, insofar as animal models can show us that these compounds boost mental health. Um, might even enhance what's called fear extinction, so for people with PTSD, it might play a role. So it's a, it's a really interesting compound, but, you know, again, it's, it's highly addictive, and, um ...
- JRJoe Rogan
What is cotinine?
- MLMax Lugavere
It's nicotine's primary metabolite in the body. So when you ingest nicotine, nicotine lasts in the body only about, the half-life is two hours, so it lasts presumably about four hours. Um, but it converts to this compound called, called cotinine in the body, and the half-life of that compound is about 20 hours, so it's in your system for a long time.
- JRJoe Rogan
And d-
- MLMax Lugavere
And it-
- JRJoe Rogan
... people-
- MLMax Lugavere
And that compound doesn't have any of the negative side effects of nicotine. It just seems to do all these interesting cool, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
So it has all the positives and none of the negatives?
- MLMax Lugavere
It seems to. I mean, it's not a stimulant.
- JRJoe Rogan
Short and long-term effects of ... Oh, that's codeine, bro. Oh, oh. (laughs)
- MLMax Lugavere
(laughs) It's ca- uh, C-O-T-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I was trying to spell it and then it- (laughs) ... affected me and I fell down the path.
- MLMax Lugavere
Different compound.
- JRJoe Rogan
I was like, "Whoa, look at that." (laughs) Yeah, that stuff will fuck you up.
- MLMax Lugavere
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) That's in cough syrup. Um-
- MLMax Lugavere
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... cotinine.
- MLMax Lugavere
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
How do you spell it?
- MLMax Lugavere
C-O-T-I-N-I-N-E, I believe. Yeah, it's super interesting stuff.
- JRJoe Rogan
And do people take this as a supplement?
- MLMax Lugavere
No, but it, your body readily will create it from, I don't know if it, it d- uh, t- it doesn't have the, um-
- 45:00 – 1:00:00
L- …
- MLMax Lugavere
um, or where I've evolved in my viewpoint. Um, I try to sh- be clear about the things that I don't know. I don't know. You know, I'm al- I'm also not trying to be one of these people on social media that like purports to know everything, to have the magic routine or protocol, you know, for, for every, for everything, you know, as, as like some kind of, um, you know, all-knowing, um, arbiter of, of health information, because I feel like there are still so many unknowns. And I could easily one day develop what it is that my mom developed. I hope I don't. I had a, uh, health scare in 2022 that, um, you know, just proved to me that, you know, there is a lot of, like, luck that goes into this, you know, into this equation as well.
- JRJoe Rogan
L-
- MLMax Lugavere
My back hurts. I don't know how to fix that. Like, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
What have you been doing for your back?
- MLMax Lugavere
Um, well, I try-
- JRJoe Rogan
You have, uh, bulging discs? What do you have?
- MLMax Lugavere
Oh man, I have, um, like mild ... Or it's probably progressed, but it's like disc desiccation between L5 and S1, and then, um, so it's like basically a dehydrated disc. And uh, which I got from just squatting improperly 10 years ago, and my back's like never been the same since.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- MLMax Lugavere
Um ...
- JRJoe Rogan
Have you ever used a Reverse Hyper?
- MLMax Lugavere
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
You don't know about that?
- MLMax Lugavere
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, it was, uh, a piece of machinery that was, uh, designed by, um, uh, W- Westside Barbell, Louie-
- NANarrator
Simmons.
- JRJoe Rogan
Roberts.
- MLMax Lugavere
Hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wasn't it?
- NANarrator
Simmons.
- JRJoe Rogan
Simmons. Louie Simmons, sorry. Louie Simmons from Westside Barbell developed this machine that strengthens the back and actively decompresses the back. And, uh, what it is is your body weight with your chest down sits on this bench, and underneath it you hook your legs to this thing that's like a leg curl, and you lift up, which strengthens your back. And on the decel, when it brings it down, it's actively pulling your back.
- MLMax Lugavere
Hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And it's phenomenal.
- MLMax Lugavere
Whoa.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's really good. It's really good at decompressing your back. It's really good at strengthening all the muscles around your back to keep your back stable. This is the machine right here. We have one-
- MLMax Lugavere
Damn.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, we have the rogue version of it out there in the studio. I could show it to you after we're done here, but I love it.
- MLMax Lugavere
Wow.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's phenomenal. And it's, it's great for developing leg strength and hamstring strength and glute strength, but really I use it for lower back, for decompression. Show a video, Jamie, if you would, so you could, we could see how it worked. This is Louie. Uh, he was on the podcast back in the day. He was an amazing guy and very innovative. So he was a power lifter and developed some back problems himself. But you see how on the downswing it's, it's actually pulling your back, and you can feel it pull your back. So you can feel it like separate everything.
- MLMax Lugavere
Wow.
- JRJoe Rogan
You feel like little things pop in there and it, it provides relief. And for him, they were telling them that he had to get his disc fused-
- 1:00:00 – 1:15:00
Hmm. …
- MLMax Lugavere
has essentially deemed, has, has marked for removal from the body. And fiber, dietary fiber, soluble fiber, um, specifically sequesters these bile acids and they, they're, because they're absorbed by the soluble fiber, they disallow reabsorption. And so you poop them out.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- MLMax Lugavere
That's one of the reasons, that's, that's actually the mechanism by which soluble fiber reduces, can reduce LDL cholesterol, ApoB, because it sequesters bile acids, which your liver creates using cholesterol. And, um, so you e- you essentially like poop out lipids, toxins. I mean, if you're not pooping on a regular basis, you're harboring, you know, toxins. That's why I think that-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- MLMax Lugavere
... that's probably one of the mechanisms by which fiber seems to be so consistently associated with healthspan, lifespan. Um, you know, and those observations are not necessarily causal. Like there's healthy user bias there. I think, you know, obviously people who eat more fruits and vegetables today, they likely have other healthy dietary and lifestyle habits. Like that's o- that's clear, right? But I do think there's a mechanism for fiber to help, um, remove some of these toxins and, and the like.
- JRJoe Rogan
And is the idea behind that mechanism that fiber encourages defecation?
- MLMax Lugavere
... fiber, the soluble fiber like traps. It basically, bile acids get released into the lumen of the gut-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MLMax Lugavere
... which help break down fats, right? You need these, you need these compounds to break down an obs- an, an assimilate fats from your diet, right? But there's a very small, I believe it's at the end of the small intestine where these acids essentially would otherwise get reabsorbed, but because they're trapped by this soluble gel-forming fiber, they get passed.
- JRJoe Rogan
And so how is that different than what would happen if you just ate meat and you have these compounds?
- MLMax Lugavere
That's a big question mark, but I think that that's, uh, something that is not often discussed and should be discussed. One of the potential benefits of fiber is the fact that it helps trap toxins in the gut.
- JRJoe Rogan
And meat does not?
- MLMax Lugavere
No. Meat is, meat is a low residue food, food. Meat is largely absorbed in the small intestine. I mean, when people, you know, the bulk of stool is made up of fiber, and dead bacteria, and cells that have been sloughed off the, you know, epithelial layer of the, um, large intestine, small intestine. Um, but yeah, fiber is generally what makes up, you know, the majority of, uh, of stool.
- JRJoe Rogan
And if you just eat meat, then what is your stool?
- MLMax Lugavere
Well, I've never personally done a carnivore diet and I'm not a gastroenterologist, but, um, you know, carnivore dieters say that they poop fine. But, um, but I think it's a missed opportunity to not be getting fiber in your diet. I, I, I don't think that the carnivore diet long term is, is optimal. Short term ... And a- and also I will-
- JRJoe Rogan
And-
- MLMax Lugavere
... say that people that, that see reprieve from awful conditions like, you know, Crohn's or I- you know, IBS or whatever these autoimmune conditions are that people who adopt carnivore diets, like I would never, I would never say stop doing this diet that seems to be helping you.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MLMax Lugavere
Like I would never say that.
- JRJoe Rogan
So the primary function of fiber that you think is beneficial, uh, versus having a carnivore diet is the fact that it can absorb these compounds inside the gut, whereas if you're just eating meat, it's, that's not going to happen.
- MLMax Lugavere
Correct. I d- I think that's one of the benefits of fiber. I think fiber, fiber has a few bene- benefits. So for one, fiber is satiating. It's not as satiating as protein, but it does mechanically stretch out the stomach, which, you know, turns off the hunger hormone ghrelin. So fiber is, is, fiber containing foods are satiating because it's, you know, f- s- are beneficial because they're satiating. Two, for this lipid regulation, hormone regulation, toxin removal function that fiber plays. Um, but then three, fiber seems to promote, um, gut bacterial diversity. Um, there are some studies that suggest otherwise, that it's not necessarily the fiber, it's fermented foods that play a, a larger role in promoting gut bacterial diversity. Um, but we know that fiber feeds gut bacteria, and as a result we get beneficial postbiotic compounds like sodium butyrate, which is anti-inflammatory, feeds cells in the gut, um, that use it as a, as a fuel source. So I think there, I think there are a few benefits to fiber consumption. Um, you know, I, I, I'm not like one of these like, you know, I don't think that fiber is the primary thing that we should be looking for in the diet necessarily. I'm, I'm, I prioritize protein. I think eating, you know, a protein rich diet, there seems to be many benefits of that. Um, and fiber is not a, it's not an essential nutrient, um, but it does seem, it does seem to do good things in the body. So I mean, I'm, I'm not anti-fiber.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, it's one of the weird arguments from the carnivore diet side is that fiber is not necessary. And you know, when you see these people that have been eating nothing but meat for five, 10 years and show an alleviation of all sorts of symptoms, of different autoimmune conditions and different issues that they've had, it's, it's interesting.
- MLMax Lugavere
Totally. Well, m- first of all, there's no such thing as a one size fits all diet. And plants, people have different, um, tolerances to different plants. You know, it's, red meat, for example, is much more well tolerated by the vast, vast majority of people. I mean, there's a complication of Lyme disease known as alpha-gal syndrome where people develop a sensitivity to red meat. But by and large, red meat, like you, provided you're producing enough stomach acid, you should be able to-
- JRJoe Rogan
Is that officially a Lyme disease? Or I thought it's from the lone star tick, it's a different-
- MLMax Lugavere
That, yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MLMax Lugavere
Yeah. I believe you're right. I believe you're right. Um, I'm not 100% sure, but it's, uh, it's associated, it's one of these tick-borne-
- JRJoe Rogan
I had a buddy of mine got it. Yeah, my friend Evan had it for a year and it actually went away and then came back again.
- MLMax Lugavere
Crazy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. For a year he couldn't eat red meat. He was allergic to red meat.
- 1:15:00 – 1:21:30
Yeah, I think the…
- MLMax Lugavere
called lutein and zeaxanthin, which we know directly support eye health and brain health. And so, I don't see a reason to d- to deprive myself of these greens that I know have these compounds that literally migrate up to the brain where they help to reduce oxidative stress, they might even improve the way, you know, cognitive function and the like. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I think the arguments against eating those to me always are like some of the silliest-
- MLMax Lugavere
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... is that pra- plants are producing these chemicals to avoid predation-
- MLMax Lugavere
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and that th- these phytochemicals are bad for you, like Jesus Christ, in a world today where there's so much that's bad for you-
- MLMax Lugavere
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... to concentrate on salad- (laughs)
- MLMax Lugavere
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... seems fucking crazy.
- MLMax Lugavere
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
I don't think anybody's dying from salad. You know, I don't think you should li- live off salad and everybody that I know that tries to eat only vegetables winds up feeling like shit. And there's only a few exceptions to that, and again, there's no one size fits all diet, but the people that I know that have gone into a vegan diet almost all of 'em get bad blood work.
- MLMax Lugavere
Oh, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And they try to figure out what's wrong and then many of 'em try to supplement and then one day, they'll have a piece of salmon and feel like their body just returned on, then they go, "Oh, okay, I gotta stop doing this."
- MLMax Lugavere
I hear that all the time. Yeah. Veganism is a PSYOP to me, it's a, it's a-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's an ideology.
- MLMax Lugavere
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's an ideology just like any other cult. And once you become a part of that, you lose all objectivity and you're no longer willing to talk about these things in a rational way, you're defending your religion.
- MLMax Lugavere
Yeah. I think on- one thing that's really interesting is that, you know, even, uh, within the nutritional orthodoxy, saturated fat still continues to be demonized, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MLMax Lugavere
But only 3% of the saturated fat that your average American intakes, ingests, comes from steak, comes from meat. The vast majority of saturated, like if you were just to s- to accept that saturated fat is the worst dietary nutrient one might ingest-
- JRJoe Rogan
By the way, that's a PSYOP.
- MLMax Lugavere
That, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Literally, from the sugar company.
- MLMax Lugavere
Because saturated fat, a fa- a fat isn't a fat, like d- are we talking about saturated fat in dairy? 'Cause that seems to have no negative cardiovascular impact, right? But 3% comes from red meat excluding mixed dishes. The vast majority of saturated fat that your average American ingests comes from desserts, comes from mixed dishes like pizza, lasagna, egg rolls, things like that.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's the good stuff.
- MLMax Lugavere
Dairy. Yeah. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, it makes me hungry.
- MLMax Lugavere
But it's like we d- we've demonized steak, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
Episode duration: 2:35:24
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