Joe Rogan Experience #2171 - Eric Weinstein & Terrence Howard

Terrence Howard 0:00 (drum music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

Narrator 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) Gentlemen, here we go. Terrence, thank you for coming back. It was, uh, a lot of fun having you on the first time. Obviously, a lot of people wanted to talk to you after they heard all these, uh, ideas of yours. And, and then my friend Eric reached out, and he said he would love to do it. Eric, one of my most brilliant friends. Um, y- tell everybody your background, like your academic background so people understand what you...

Eric Weinstein 0:36 Sure. So I'm, I'm a PhD in mathematics, specifically in mathematical physics. Uh, I've had positions in economics, mathematics, and physics departments at places like MIT, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Harvard, after my doctorate, uh, Oxford, um, and I'm a podcaster in part-

Joe Rogan 1:00 Very good podcaster.

Eric Weinstein 1:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01 Boosted- Bring it back to Portal?

Eric Weinstein 1:03 Uh, you have a lot to do with all of these things, Joe.

Joe Rogan 1:06 This is my f- my, one of my favorite episodes of any podcast was your interview with Werner Herzog.

Eric Weinstein 1:10 Oh, man.

Joe Rogan 1:11 That was a great episode.

Eric Weinstein 1:12 Have you had him in here?

Joe Rogan 1:13 I have not, but I would love to.

Eric Weinstein 1:14 'Cause it seems to me like that's the conversation I wanna listen to-

Joe Rogan 1:17 I would like to corner him-

Eric Weinstein 1:18 ... is you, you, and Werner.

Joe Rogan 1:18 ... because I believe that Grizzly Man was a secret comedy.

Eric Weinstein 1:21 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:22 I really do. There's something about h- the way he edited Grizzly Man, I'm like, "This motherfucker is being funny on purpose." I know he is. I know he's, like, editing these, like, short clips so it's- the guy's so ridiculous-

Eric Weinstein 1:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:34 ... that you start laughing.

Eric Weinstein 1:36 I didn't see it 'cause I, for-

Joe Rogan 1:37 You haven't seen Grizzly Man?

Eric Weinstein 1:38 We have different tastes, sir.

Joe Rogan 1:39 How dare you.

Eric Weinstein 1:40 By the way-

Joe Rogan 1:40 It's a work of art.

Eric Weinstein 1:41 ... I, I need to also just say that I was not, uh, Terrence, I think, you know, I heard him on TMZ, um, the, I, I am not, I was not looking for a debate. I wanted to make sure that Terrence had his position steel manned so that anything that he didn't know how to do within mathematics that was legit, uh, gave a chance to put his best foot forward before he got, like, reviewed. And, uh, I didn't ask to come on. You asked to have me on. I'm happy to do it 'cause a friend of the show, but I'm just-

Joe Rogan 2:09 Well, you reached out about the episode specifically-

Eric Weinstein 2:11 Yeah, sure.

Joe Rogan 2:11 ... and I felt like if anybody could talk to Terrence and actually-

Eric Weinstein 2:14 Oh, I-

Joe Rogan 2:14 ... understand what they're talking about, it'd be you.

Terrence Howard 2:15 Yeah, and after I watched the interview with you and Brian Keating, um, I realized that you weren't trying to eviscerate me or anything like that. You actually wanted to hear, um, uh, a, a, a well-put-together argument concerning these things. So I appreciated you taking the time to come and examine these things and love to hear your stuff. But I wanted to say thank you to you, Joe, and for putting me on the show initially, and for your audience, for how they responded, and, you know, the support and the people that were against it, because it raises the idea of critical thinking, 'cause that's what we're s- we're supposed to be doing at this crucial time is the critical thinking. So I, I, I, I thank all the haters, and I thank all the supporters, and I thank the people that's on the fence. And I'm hoping that today we can move people over to one side or the other.

Joe Rogan 3:08 Well, at least we can better inform people. And Terrence, uh, it's been really cool to meet you, 'cause I'd heard about you, and you're, you're an exceptional human being. You really are. You're very, very unusual.

Terrence Howard 3:18 Thank you.

Joe Rogan 3:18 For a guy to be that good of an actor, I almost always dismiss them as being a moron. (laughs)

Eric Weinstein 3:23 (laughs)

Terrence Howard 3:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:23 Or at least crazy.

Terrence Howard 3:24 'Cause you guys are both-

Joe Rogan 3:24 Or at least crazy. You know, like, but in a different kind of crazy, like in, uh, like, you're super friendly, and your, it's- your recall is insane. Um, but I wanted you to talk to someone who's had a deep education in it. And, uh, let's see, like, what, what he believes about these ideas, and maybe you guys can collaborate or just, like, let's start from Eric. Like, what out, what out of the podcast that I did with Terrence really s- stood out with you or something that you wanted to...

Eric Weinstein 3:52 Well, what I thought is, uh, I gotta, I have to be honest. I've been listening. I was not so happy with certain things that happened in the podcast, and then I started hearing the response to it. And I was much more infuriated by the response than anything I heard in the podcast because I thought that a lot of people, um, just used their position of greater formal education in some of these areas to be jerks and to be really dismissive and pretend that they couldn't understand things that you were saying. And I didn't-

Joe Rogan 4:20 (laughs)

Eric Weinstein 4:20 No, I'm not kidding.

Terrence Howard 4:21 I know, I heard.

Eric Weinstein 4:21 'Cause I think this thing goes out to millions of people, and whatever, and, and let, let me just say something else positive about Terrence. What he just did was very big. He said, "Thank you to the haters." I haven't gotten to that plane of existence yet.

Joe Rogan 4:33 You gotta stay offline. I keep telling you.

Eric Weinstein 4:35 I know. (laughs)

Terrence Howard 4:36 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:36 No, no, no, no, no. Some people just shouldn't be reading the comments.

Eric Weinstein 4:38 And it's not, it's not the online stuff. It's the academic stuff.

Joe Rogan 4:41 Oh, yeah.

Eric Weinstein 4:41 The academic stuff is really psycho- it's vicious stuff.

Joe Rogan 4:44 Yes.

Eric Weinstein 4:44 And it's always with, like, a pretend smile on the face, so it's the worst.

Joe Rogan 4:47 Mm-hmm.

Eric Weinstein 4:48 And what I thought, um, I would do is I, I can't critique a man if I haven't built a model of what he's actually saying in my own mind that he agrees with. Like, if, in other words, if I start coming after Terrence and saying, "I think this stuff here is bullshit," and he's like, "I didn't say that. That's what you inferred from what I wrote," then I've just basically insulted the person incorrectly. And so, and if I praise something, I don't know whether I built that in my mind or he built it. So the first thing I thought we would do is I would try to recapitulate what I understand of Terrence's sort of grand arc and see whether or not I can steel man it, and then Terrence can say, "Yes," and then I can evaluate it. But until we do that, I don't know whether I'm actually reacting to the real man.

Joe Rogan 5:33 I think that's really important, what, and what you said about, uh, the viciousness of academics, I think that's just a human thing that exists at the highest levels where people are doing something very difficult and there's a lot of stress and anxiety involved.

Eric Weinstein 5:47 Sure.

Joe Rogan 5:48 And you attack even your peers because your biggest fear is your peers attacking you. And usually, generally, it happens with people that are getting more recognition than someone who, someone who thinks they g- should be getting more think deserve. Like, someone thinks they should be getting more recognition, they see someone getting recognition, especially for something that perhaps could be controversial-

Eric Weinstein 6:09 (coughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:09 ... and then they start attacking them viciously. But it's generally people that wish they got more attention. It's part of the thing.

Eric Weinstein 6:16 Sure. If you think about it, though, if you think about the number of people in podcasting who sort of have tried to lift each other up, uh, it's pretty good, right? Like, you-

Joe Rogan 6:25 Yes.

Eric Weinstein 6:25 ... like you, Lex, all, Sam Harris, all sorts of people have been good to each other. And one of the reasons that is, is that there's enough money in it. What happened in academics is that it went into a contractive-... state in which you killed or you died, right? And so basically, the ethics of academics plummeted after the early '70s.

Terrence Howard 6:44 Hmm.

Eric Weinstein 6:44 It was always, it was always very competitive, but the a, uh, really what it is is it's, it's, uh, the Hunger Games. And-

Terrence Howard 6:51 Yeah.

Eric Weinstein 6:52 ... um, you know, in acting for example, there, if, if there's money, uh, among the elite set, people have trouble with each other. Same thing in tech.

Terrence Howard 6:59 Mm-hmm.

Eric Weinstein 6:59 They kind of fight each other, but they all get rich together, and then they bury hatchets and things like that. You don't see that as much in academics because it's, it's, uh, it's kill or be killed. And so we, we'd had an implosion ethically, and so one of the things that I wanted to do was to try to just begin by steel manning because I've been really disappointed in a lot of the critique that Terrence has experienced.

Terrence Howard 7:21 The funny thing is the scientists that attacked, most of them was upset that I got into their lane and climbed into their lane talking about science. But here they're not inside a lab somewhere. They're not in, in, at in Cambridge or Oxford somewhere. They're on social media. They're on the entertainment world, and I've never sat up and said, "Oh, you're a f- you're full of this because you n- you're, you, you have no business doing this." But they got upset that I'm talking about the fund- foundational problems associated with mathematics that's held us back.

Eric Weinstein 7:57 But I think if you think-

Terrence Howard 7:58 We, we're jumping.

Eric Weinstein 7:59 ... people really care about these ideas though-

Terrence Howard 8:01 Yeah.

Eric Weinstein 8:01 ... what they should do is talk about the ideas. It's the personal attacks that are attached to the ideas by people-

Terrence Howard 8:06 S-

Eric Weinstein 8:06 ... that wanna be taken seriously, it fucks the whole thing up. 'Cause like either you're correct or you're incorrect.

Terrence Howard 8:12 Mm.

Eric Weinstein 8:12 Tell me what you think is right, and then you tell me what you think is right. Let's work this out. But this personal attack shit, if you're talking about something as complex as this, the things that you discussed on this podcast, there's no room for bullshit. There's no room for bullshit. You're dealing with such highly complex ideas. Well, Terrence says that and, and to his credit, you know, I found that interview you were doing with that woman where you're-

Terrence Howard 8:33 Yeah.

Eric Weinstein 8:33 ... you see me wearing a wig.

Terrence Howard 8:34 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was doing the movie. I was in the middle of doing Fight Night.

Eric Weinstein 8:37 (laughs)

Terrence Howard 8:38 And they had a shooting ... I had to do the interview in between shots. (laughs)

Eric Weinstein 8:42 It's amazing. It's an amazing interview.

Terrence Howard 8:44 We're good. (laughs)

Eric Weinstein 8:44 With the wig on. It's amazing. Well, I remember that line from High Heels when you put that wig hat on your head.

Terrence Howard 8:49 (laughs) But bro, you could pull that wig off. You could just start speaking at Oxford-

Eric Weinstein 8:52 But ... But he-

Terrence Howard 8:52 ... with that wig on. Fuck it. (laughs)

Eric Weinstein 8:54 But, but anyway, so Terrence was there wigged out, and he was saying this thing.

Terrence Howard 8:58 Wigged out literally. (laughs)

Eric Weinstein 8:59 Literally wigged out. And he was saying this thing. He said, "Look, all I care about is the truth." And that freed me up to come on, right, because I ... The spectrum of, of Terrence from the best to the worst is a broad spectrum. And he's seriously wants to improve what he's doing. He cares about it, and if I can, you know, if I can be ... play a part in that, I, I think you'll see-

Terrence Howard 9:21 I love ... I, I wanna offer to you, I wanna be able to show you the things that I tried-

Eric Weinstein 9:26 Yeah.

Terrence Howard 9:26 ... to show Neil DeGrasse Tyson that he would not even really take a look at and to see if it's valid. But no, he did take a look at it, right? He responded in a b- a long video recently.

Eric Weinstein 9:34 Yeah, but his response was disingenuous.

Terrence Howard 9:37 (laughs)

Eric Weinstein 9:37 Guys, may I make a recommendation? Let's start with the ideas-

Terrence Howard 9:40 (laughs)

Eric Weinstein 9:41 ... because I think we all care about those.

Terrence Howard 9:42 Yes, for sure, but hold please because this is an important thing that just came out.

Eric Weinstein 9:45 Uh, yeah, he, he was so disingenuous because I sent him the long email after he sent me back the red-line thing thanking him for reviewing it and saying, "Look forward to when we can discuss these things." 'Cause I sent it, the treaties to him, so we could discuss that on the show. He, his whole point was, "I'm going to bring you on my show, and we're gonna talk."

Terrence Howard 10:04 Right.

Eric Weinstein 10:04 "So here is this stuff that we're gonna talk about that I would b- like to talk about." He never followed up from that point forward, just sent one-line emails, "Any other thing you got, you gotta go to somebody else." So he, he's pretended like, "Oh, I was trying to be, you know, very helpful," but that's not what the email trails show.

Terrence Howard 10:24 So he did make this one very large response though, right? He did. He did go over the treaties, very- Yes, very thoroughly.

Eric Weinstein 10:32 ... like all the red-line stuff. He only has so much time, you know. He might be in a position to defend him, but he might be in a position where he's like, "Look, I, I just said what I said about all this stuff. Good luck. I don't have the time to, like, sit here and discuss these things in depth." Maybe that's possible.

Terrence Howard 10:48 And that's great.

Eric Weinstein 10:48 Maybe-

Terrence Howard 10:48 That's great, but it's like you invited me to come and do your show. I put this stuff together to come and talk to you on your show, and then there's no follow-up with the show.

Eric Weinstein 10:57 Got it. I, I, I wouldn't-

Terrence Howard 10:58 (laughs) So where's the beer? Where? (laughs) I understand it. I mean, I understand your perspective for sure, but- It's like come on, man. Let's ... If you're gonna do it, do it.

Eric Weinstein 11:04 Yeah, he might have got to the point where it's like a, like if a thing where he thinks it's ridiculous, and he doesn't wanna engage it on his show.

Terrence Howard 11:10 And ridiculous. Amen. And I believe that.

Eric Weinstein 11:12 Yeah.

Terrence Howard 11:12 But if you got 97, 98 patents and four supersymmetrical systems that you're claiming you have and all you need is someone to review them-

Eric Weinstein 11:21 I'm gonna have to jump in. I don't, I don't wanna do it this way.

Terrence Howard 11:22 That'd be great. Uh, uh, uh, this- Listen, we're just having a conversation. This isn't a ... This isn't about Tyson. No, but what's the problem?

Eric Weinstein 11:26 This is a col- this is a colleague of mine.

Terrence Howard 11:28 Yeah, this isn't about Tyson.

Eric Weinstein 11:29 And the-

Terrence Howard 11:29 And I love him. I love him. He, I grew up watching him, and I appreciated him. But what is the problem? We're defending him. I certainly am.

Eric Weinstein 11:37 Because Neil's a complicated guy, and part of what's going on is this, that there's a problem in general, which we scientists do not behave honestly with respect to certain things. We'll make these claims that science is about communication and challenging ideas and, and all of these things, and everybody can be a scientist and all these sorts of, of, of things that we say. Science is interesting. Science is fun. Well, very often it's not interesting. Very often it's not fun. Very, very often you can't really say that everybody can do science 'cause it's super demanding. Um, we don't welcome people. Uh, "You know, you're a mathematician too." We'll say that to kids, and then the kid will say something, and then we'll say, "Be quiet."

Terrence Howard 12:17 Yeah.

Eric Weinstein 12:17 And so what ... This is not about ... This is not peculiar to Neil. It's like science in general has portrayed itself as a place where everyone's welcome. We debate out the ideas. We have the scientific method to tell us what's true and what isn't. And that's disingenuous. It's not really how the game works, and w- this is going to involve peer review. It's gonna involve people who are dual in terms of both doing research and being public figures. People who are public figures who we think of as researchers who aren't really doing much research.... people who are, you know, pushing crazy agendas in public without a recognition that their colleagues don't think much of what they're doing. I mean, this is a very complicated story that Terrence has walked into. And I have to think about my colleagues, and I have to think about how they hear things, what they will say. And so I am, in part, speaking to your audience, but I'm also partially speaking to a thousand people who are seeing this at a different level. And so-

Terrence Howard 13:19 So, but just for the record-

Eric Weinstein 13:20 Sure.

Terrence Howard 13:20 ... like I said, I grew up watching Neil, and having someone that was light skinned, that looked like me, up there making these grand steps towards helping people to understand. I admire him, and I still would like the opportunity to sit down and show him these things and have that beer. Because I think that he will be pleased once he sees the supersymmetry associated with it, and understand where all of the passion came from. And I hope that other scientists will take a look at it, but that's the whole point of us doing this.

Eric Weinstein 13:56 I don't know how serious he is about that beer.

Terrence Howard 13:59 Oh.

Eric Weinstein 14:00 Right, 'cause I saw him say that, right?

Terrence Howard 14:01 Mm-hmm.

Eric Weinstein 14:02 And, you know, i- i- that was a very complicated thing that he did, and it had many layers as to whether or not you took it on the surface, you took the hidden meaning, and you took the meaning below that. And so plunging right into that from the beginning, in my opinion, is not served, uh, very well by having the three of us here-

Terrence Howard 14:22 Yeah.

Eric Weinstein 14:22 ... because the first thing is, what is the nature of Terrence's ideas? I don't think Neil actually understood some of your ideas, to be entirely honest.

Terrence Howard 14:28 No, and what he forgot is when I say one times one equals two, that's a metaphor for challenging the status quo. Despite the fact that the square root of two has all of its issues when you cube it or you multiply it by two, which creates a contradiction. The fa- despite the fact that the square root of two has a problem in, with the prime numbers, the fact that they call number two a prime number-

Eric Weinstein 14:57 Mm-hmm.

Terrence Howard 14:57 ... when it's clearly a composite number. Any other prime number, and I'll jump into this, any prime number that you subtract from another prime number, you always get a composite number, except with the situation of the number two. And there's so many people that... And that's why the, the prime numbers are unpredictable, because of that problem associated. So there's been a problem with two for so long.

Eric Weinstein 15:20 Two is different. I mean, y- you will find that, um, mathematicians will often talk about, uh, proving something for characteristic not equal to two. So they'll single out two as being just very, very different. So look that up when you, when we're done, and I'm happy to-

Terrence Howard 15:35 Yeah, but why? But why would they do that?

Eric Weinstein 15:37 Because then part of what you're saying, the prime two, two, it does belong as a prime, but it is also special. And in other words, I have the opportunity to straw man you if I want to, because what you just said sounded crazy, and I also have the prob- possibility to steel man you. So all the algebraic topologists who just heard, you know, for characteristic not equals to, to two, they're like saying, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fair." And so in part, by just jumping into the middle of this, we don't have the benefit of putting your best foot-

Terrence Howard 16:08 Um, walking through...

Eric Weinstein 16:08 ... forward because, you know, if you say one (laughs) one times one equals two, everybody knows that that's crazy. But what you actually may mean and what, the fact that you don't use certain terms or the fact that you use certain pronunciations that c- communicate to me something very positive, which is that you taught yourself, you learned this stuff from reading about it because nobody taught you, or you wouldn't pronounce certain words the way you pronounce them.

Terrence Howard 16:31 True. True. Um-

Eric Weinstein 16:32 Yeah, so, you know, in part, you always have the ability to make fun of somebody who pronounces a word the way it's read on the page, and then you also have the opportunity to say, "Holy cow, that guy actually taught himself. That's more impressive."

Terrence Howard 16:44 Right.

Eric Weinstein 16:44 And so, so in part, what I wanna do is I wanna (laughs) start by giving you your best, your best foot forward and see if I even understood what you said when you went into this whole flower of life rift that becomes your, y- your larger theory. And the only way I know how to do this is to see whether or not I actually grasped it.

Terrence Howard 17:05 Let's go.

Eric Weinstein 17:05 Because, you know, I also had to spend some time. I didn't spend a ton of time, but, you know, my time is valuable, your time is valuable.

Terrence Howard 17:12 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Eric Weinstein 17:12 So let's do this thing.

Terrence Howard 17:13 Yeah, so I, I, I will follow your lead. Um-

Eric Weinstein 17:16 All right.

17:16 What's going on with the number two? (laughs) I'm sitting over here going, "Hey-"

17:20 The CIA, the CIA is in charge of the number two.

17:21 What's up with two?

17:23 Two is different, because of what he said, you know?

17:25 Right.

17:25 The, the fact that the even/odd distinction-

17:27 Isn't that odd, though, that two is different?

Terrence Howard 17:29 But the problem-

Eric Weinstein 17:29 What a strange thing.

Terrence Howard 17:30 The problem that associ- that's associated with the number two is because of the identity principle, which I call the Jim Crow laws of mathematics.

Eric Weinstein 17:39 (laughs)

17:39 (laughs)

Terrence Howard 17:39 That eight times one equal... I know you don't wanna go into it yet.

Eric Weinstein 17:42 It's okay.

17:43 No, no, no, let's get into it.

Terrence Howard 17:45 But that, just as a base, just as a base-

Eric Weinstein 17:46 You're going right into his neighborhood.

Terrence Howard 17:47 (laughs) Just as a base

17:48 (laughs)

Eric Weinstein 17:48 You're in the mathematical hood right now, trying to keep a Black man down.

Terrence Howard 17:52 Because you have ... No, you got ... You have, you, you have, um, Marie von Franz who argued about the, the problems associated with the identity principle. You got Go- Kurt Godel who talked about it. You ta- you got Wells. All of them said it made, it made everything incommensurable just because they gave that identity principle to the number one. And that has been the stumbling block for mathematicians, because it- it's what's held everybody behind, 'cause they keep trying to make that work. Um, am I wrong?

Eric Weinstein 18:24 Yeah, you're wrong if we do it that way.

18:26 F- okay.

18:26 I mean, in other words, I c- I can take... We could do one of two things.

18:29 What is, what, what I, what is, is anything that he's saying correct?

18:33 He's... Terrence, Terrence has several influences, which, again, I don't think it's clear to me. I have to ask him questions to find out whether I'm even right. Look, one of the problems is, is I may be wrong about my model of Terrence. This is the first time I'm meeting him. I didn't know who he was before the podcast. And, um...... I just, I need to know whether or not I'm even building the right model of Terrence because otherwise, it's just silly to have me here, and I'm gonna critique what I built in my own mind from Terrence's words.

Joe Rogan 19:01 Right.

Terrence Howard 19:02 What I would love, uh, what I was hoping is that you would be able to explain, um, your geometric unity model.

Eric Weinstein 19:09 That's a d- different day.

Terrence Howard 19:10 That...

Eric Weinstein 19:11 This is about you.

Terrence Howard 19:12 Okay, then, then, all right then. We, we follow how you like.

Joe Rogan 19:14 But you guys could definitely get it... That could be a whole nother podcast. But, um, what about what he was saying is incorrect just now?

Eric Weinstein 19:22 He's saying things that are often at a level that are allegorical and you could make them... So Terrence sometimes mentioned something called category theory, right? And there's a weird way in which category theory can take something that seems to be an analogy and make it precise and powerful, right? So you can have two systems that don't look the same and you spot an analogy between them, and then you say, "Holy cow, there's an exact, um, mapping of one system onto another," uh, in which, uh, it was unexpected that those are the same structure. So for example, we're gonna get into something about multiplication where Terrence has an issue with multiplication, but to the best of my knowledge, you don't have an ad- ad- issue with addition.

Terrence Howard 20:13 I don't have an issue... I don't have an issue with multiplication either. I just-

Eric Weinstein 20:17 Well, then why one times one is what?

Terrence Howard 20:19 One times one should equal two.

Eric Weinstein 20:21 Yeah.

Terrence Howard 20:21 And action times and action... If you can show me one place in the universe-

Eric Weinstein 20:24 But you just, you just shifted frames.

Terrence Howard 20:25 No, no, no. No, no. Show me one place in the universe, one natural observable phenomenon where one times one equals one, where an action times an action doesn't have a reaction.

Eric Weinstein 20:37 So then you just went into some... There's a concept called logomachy, which is arguing over words. And what you want is not to be caught. If I can beat you in a word game, or you can beat me in a word-

Terrence Howard 20:49 You can, you can beat me in a word game. I didn't go to MIT or any of that.

Eric Weinstein 20:51 You can beat me in a word game. I heard, I heard, I heard... By the way, I heard you with B.B. King where he was having trouble, uh, improving on the spot, and your mind just rescued him with a partial rhyme.

Terrence Howard 21:02 Yeah.

Eric Weinstein 21:02 I really appreciate that because he's one of my favorites.

Terrence Howard 21:04 Yeah, he invited me to do a show.

Eric Weinstein 21:05 That was, that was a big deal.

Terrence Howard 21:06 I got to play with him. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:07 Wow.

Terrence Howard 21:07 I was scared to play guitar though with him. I should have put off the guitar, but I was scared.

Joe Rogan 21:12 (laughs)

Eric Weinstein 21:12 (laughs)

Terrence Howard 21:12 I was scared, you know what I'm saying? You play with-

Eric Weinstein 21:13 But he was happy to have you.

Joe Rogan 21:14 It's B.B. King, man.

Terrence Howard 21:14 Yeah, but I sang with him, but I... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:16 Yeah, it's B.B. King.

Eric Weinstein 21:18 Yeah.

Terrence Howard 21:18 Thank you for appreciating that.

Eric Weinstein 21:19 So let's get to this flower of life, because that's sort of the beginning of these e- this exploration, and also-

Joe Rogan 21:26 Could you correct what he said about one time? What is like, what about an action and a reaction like...

Eric Weinstein 21:33 So I was trying to get-

Joe Rogan 21:34 What-

Eric Weinstein 21:34 I was trying to get to something. Do you have a problem with the way we do addition? I understand that-

Terrence Howard 21:38 Addition is the addition, the subtraction, and division is all right beyond... The only problems I have is dividing by... You can't divide by zero, but you can multiply by zero. And if division is the inverse operation of, of multiplication, then you should be able to divide by it, but if you divide by zero, you end up with an infinity. And there was, there was a great system put together by Marco Roden, um, the vortexual, um, based m- math system where they removed the zero, but it's able to predict all the things necessary. It was 100% precise as a model, but it's been abandoned or it's been relegated to, to the outskirts.

Eric Weinstein 22:18 I don't know that we, we do, do things where sometimes we can divide by zero. Um, we have concepts like the pointed infinity where you can complete a structure that the original structure can't accommodate a problem, uh, an operation, but you can complete it to a larger op- uh, larger system in which that, that thing does become sensible. So as an example of the one times one, assume that Terrence doesn't have a big problem with addition, because addition doesn't have the division by zero problem. Okay. It is the case that, um, if you take any two numbers A and B, two real numbers, right? Or make them positive.

Terrence Howard 23:00 Mm-hmm.

Eric Weinstein 23:01 And take the natural logs of those two numbers and add those together, then you take the exponent of that. So we haven't done a times operation at all.

Terrence Howard 23:11 Right.

Eric Weinstein 23:11 Right? The exponential of the Ln of A times, plus Ln of B, that is equal to the A, to A times B. In other words, addition and multiplication are what we would say is isomorphic or an ordinary person would say exactly the same thing. So in other words, if you don't allow me multiplication, but you would allow me because you, you like waves. So with waves you need exponentials-

Terrence Howard 23:38 Mm-hmm.

Eric Weinstein 23:38 ... and you need natural logarithms, there's no way of changing the law of multiplication and accepting the law of addition because they're the same system.

Terrence Howard 23:49 Multiplication should initially started as exaggerated addition. That was the whole point of it.

Eric Weinstein 23:55 Well, the, the real, the, the precise statement would be that the positive real numbers under multiplication with the identity element being the multiplicative identity being one are isomorphic to the total real numbers under addition with the additive identity being zero, and the natural logarithm and exponential are group homomorphisms that connect the two with one being the other's inverse. So by the principle of explosion, the reason that people are in part gonna freak out about your stuff is that we have a vulnerability. And that vulnerability says that from a single contradiction, if you can sneak one contradiction through TSA, the entire airport collapses. Everything that we do just is destroyed. And so the idea is that the security on mathematics and physics and physical sciences is extraordinary.... for outside ideas because the first contradiction in the unity of knowledge destroys all of it. If you've ever seen one of these warehouse racking collapses-

Terrence Howard 25:03 Yes.

Eric Weinstein 25:03 ... where some forklift guy hits some strut and the entire warehouse goes ... (laughs) That's what you're dealing with, with the principle of explosion.

Terrence Howard 25:11 And that's what I'm... That's the problems with the identity principle that they've been trying to work on for years. For years, it's, it's... Norman J. Wildberger talks about it. It's, it is what's s- ... Because you have to cancel, um, conservation of energy and you have to cancel the, the action and reactionary laws in order for one times one. Now, I understand, you're seeing one, one time. But because of the associative law, the associative law that says, "If A and B are both positive integers, then A is to be added to itself. In multiplication, A, A is to be added to itself as many units as is indicated by B."

Eric Weinstein 25:54 Well, hang on there. If I change the word "itself" to the word "zero", which you're gonna say, "There is no zero."

Terrence Howard 26:02 Why do I say there's no zero?

Eric Weinstein 26:03 Because you ha-... Well, this, uh, this is why I w- I keep trying to get back to what I understand-

Terrence Howard 26:07 (laughs) No, but the thing is-

Eric Weinstein 26:07 ... of Terrence's underlying metaphysics.

Terrence Howard 26:09 No, what I'm saying-

Eric Weinstein 26:10 You can't do this with me.

Terrence Howard 26:10 ... that there... To s- to say "zero", zero is supposed to represent no thing.

Eric Weinstein 26:16 Right.

Terrence Howard 26:16 Nothing whatsoever. But they have re-... Zero as a number, set up as a number, but to say "no thing", your brain creates a chemical structure even in saying "nothing". So there is... What I'm saying-

Eric Weinstein 26:29 So there's a difference b-

Terrence Howard 26:29 ... philosophically-

Eric Weinstein 26:30 There's a difference between the empty set and-

Terrence Howard 26:32 The empty set.

Eric Weinstein 26:33 ... zero.

Terrence Howard 26:33 That's the difference.

Eric Weinstein 26:34 Right? So if I say to you, "Terrence, what, what is the collection of kittens that you have sold to North Korea to be used for spare parts?" You would say, "It's the empty set. I've never, I've never sold a kitten."

Terrence Howard 26:47 Yeah, there'd be nothing.

Eric Weinstein 26:48 I say, "Hey, Terrence, what is the number of kittens that you've sold for the internal organs to North Korea?" You would say, "Zero."

Terrence Howard 26:57 Correct.

Eric Weinstein 26:57 So zero is the-

Terrence Howard 26:57 I would say none, yes, zero.

Eric Weinstein 26:59 That's right. So th- there is a zero.

Terrence Howard 27:01 But to multiply something by the nothing, to multiply something by nothing, don't they have to be dimensionally equal to in order to multiply? Like, you can't multiply a human by an ant because they're not dimensionally equal.

Eric Weinstein 27:17 Well, if, if there was a thing called a human ant.

Terrence Howard 27:20 (laughs)

Eric Weinstein 27:21 No, but that was your point about dollars, right?

Terrence Howard 27:23 Yes.

Eric Weinstein 27:23 W- a dollar times... A dollar times a dollar, that was a p- a problem that people-

Terrence Howard 27:27 That's the Dewey Decimal System. That's the problem with-

Eric Weinstein 27:28 It's not the Dewey Decimal.

Terrence Howard 27:29 No, the problem comes up with the Dewey Decimal System, why a dollar times a dollar can be different values based on different currencies. That was, that was the point of that. I was, uh, pointing out, hey, the Dewey Decimal System is-

Eric Weinstein 27:41 Okay.

Terrence Howard 27:41 ... is whack.

Eric Weinstein 27:42 Terrence makes, Terrence makes a correct point, that we say one times one equals one. But if you say a dollar times a dollar, it's not a sensible thing unless a dollar squared is a unit that you can interpret.

Terrence Howard 27:53 No.

Eric Weinstein 27:54 Right? That was your point about dimensionality.

Terrence Howard 27:55 Right. Now, in the moment, what is a dollar squared? What does a dollar squared become?

Eric Weinstein 27:59 I don't know what that means.

Terrence Howard 28:00 But since the dollar is no longer based on a hard asset, it's no longer gold, it's just an integer. It's just an integer in a computer being multiplied.

Eric Weinstein 28:10 It's a unit of account, Terrence.

Terrence Howard 28:11 It's a unit of account.

Eric Weinstein 28:12 Yeah.

Terrence Howard 28:13 But it's an integer that still a-... Now you're able to multiply it under different currencies. States are not allowed to print dollars, but states are allowed to print as much change, so who's to say that the state isn't saying, "Okay, we're gonna make... We're gonna print-"

Eric Weinstein 28:27 We can get into seigniorage, which is the concept of theft that e- occurs when either the Fed (laughs) or a counterfeiter creates more script, thereby devaluing the... Increasing the unit. Um, th- the number of units that are in circulation decreases the value per unit.

Terrence Howard 28:45 Right.

Eric Weinstein 28:45 But my claim is, you're gonna do a series of things. Like, I've watched how you deal with people and interaction. And one of the... You know, w- you've created an incredible effect. Rick Rubin, the hip hop producer-

Terrence Howard 28:57 Yeah, he, he, he did my album. He, he, uh... (laughs)

Eric Weinstein 29:00 Okay. Well, that makes some sense because the first thing that happens is I'm awakened by a message from Rick Rubin who's like-

Terrence Howard 29:06 (laughs)

Eric Weinstein 29:06 ... "How come you can't explain physics the way Terrence Howard explains?" That's not a way to get on my good side at 8:00 in the morning.

Terrence Howard 29:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:11 Yeah, but he's probably baiting you.

Eric Weinstein 29:12 What?

Joe Rogan 29:13 Rick's probably baiting you.

Eric Weinstein 29:13 Oh, he's always, he's always baiting me.

Joe Rogan 29:15 He's the best.

Eric Weinstein 29:15 He's the best.

Terrence Howard 29:16 I'm trying to explain physics the way you explain it.

Eric Weinstein 29:19 Well, okay. I wanna-

Terrence Howard 29:20 I'm looking for a partnership at the end of this. That's what I'm hoping to, to win you over as a proselyte or as a-

Eric Weinstein 29:25 You can try.

Terrence Howard 29:26 I'm... That's... I'm hoping that the information-

Eric Weinstein 29:27 And there's part of me that's won-

Terrence Howard 29:29 ... does that.

Eric Weinstein 29:29 There's at least one area that you have won me over and which I'm very excited about. But I'd like to get back to- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:35 What is that area? Don't leave us hanging.

Terrence Howard 29:37 (laughs)

Eric Weinstein 29:37 The l- the linchpin, we'll get to it.

Joe Rogan 29:39 Yeah, but you can't leave us hanging.

Eric Weinstein 29:41 Well, I'm trying to get back... Look, I'm trying to do a service to this-

Terrence Howard 29:44 Go, go ahead. Let's do it. Let's- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:44 Listen, let me, let me let you talk. You just can't talk. Stop trying to control everything, you freak.

Eric Weinstein 29:49 I'm not.

Terrence Howard 29:50 (laughs) He's got a plan.

Joe Rogan 29:52 I know. He's got, like, a very rigid plan.

Terrence Howard 29:54 And he can't even, and he's genuine. He didn't-

Joe Rogan 29:55 We're gonna have a good time.

Eric Weinstein 29:56 Can I get, can I get an Ayahuasca-chino?

Terrence Howard 29:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:00 (laughs)

Eric Weinstein 30:00 (laughs)

30:00 Be right back.

30:01 Actually, could we g- is there a way to bring the temperature, uh...

Joe Rogan 30:04 Yeah, we can lower the temperature in here.

Eric Weinstein 30:05 Yeah, 'cause I'm schvitzing.

Joe Rogan 30:07 Yeah. Well, you are wearing a jacket, sir.

Eric Weinstein 30:08 I-... Well, because I'm trying to be professional.

Terrence Howard 30:10 That's right.

Joe Rogan 30:10 That's hilarious. Isn't that adorable? Like I like how you dress, Matt.

Eric Weinstein 30:14 Can I do pitchers of that cold coffee any more?

Joe Rogan 30:15 Beautiful geometric pattern on your hoodie. Looks much more comfortable.

Terrence Howard 30:18 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:18 This thing you're doing, everybody does that. Smart as you are, you could wear a fucking dirty Nirvana T-shirt.

Terrence Howard 30:25 (laughs) You come in...

Joe Rogan 30:26 You don't need, you don't need this nonsense suit.

Eric Weinstein 30:28 Okay.

Joe Rogan 30:28 Although I do enjoy a good suit.

Terrence Howard 30:29 But most of, most of the stuff that I've been-

Joe Rogan 30:32 (laughs)

Terrence Howard 30:32 ... pointing out-

Eric Weinstein 30:33 Don't try to control everything. (laughs)

Terrence Howard 30:34 ... the, the, the stuff I've been pointing out has been the blaring inconsistencies that they shove down and tell you, "Just accept." And I j- and if I hadn't ha-... If I didn't come up with a separate cosmog... I didn't come up with it. If a separate cosmogony hadn't been handed to me, given to me-

Eric Weinstein 30:52 Terrence.

Terrence Howard 30:53 That's why I explained that thing.

Eric Weinstein 30:54 Y- y- y-

Terrence Howard 30:55 Okay, I'm gonna be quiet because-

Eric Weinstein 30:56 All right.

Terrence Howard 30:57 ... I'll, I'll, I'll --

Eric Weinstein 30:57 Let's start with the flower of life. You're wearing it on your shirt, on your sweatshirt.

Terrence Howard 31:00 I'm wearing some apparition of the flower.

Eric Weinstein 31:02 Okay. That's right.

Terrence Howard 31:03 But-

Eric Weinstein 31:03 So I think the way I came to understand what you're doing, 'cause it's, it's confusing, right? And the one thing I can't go with you on, is I can't go on the Nantucket Sleigh Ride, where we're talking about the Bose-Einstein condensate, and then we're talking about the period-

Terrence Howard 31:15 Oh, I'm gonna show you that.

Eric Weinstein 31:16 We can do that.

Terrence Howard 31:17 I'm gonna show you the thing-

Eric Weinstein 31:17 But he wants to stick to spec- specific topics one at a time.

Terrence Howard 31:21 Yeah.

Eric Weinstein 31:21 Because otherwise, it's just ...

31:22 Yes. It's impossible. Yes.

31:22 I'll be chasing, I'll be chasing after you and you'll get nothing.

31:25 Yeah, that was part of the plan today.

31:26 Yeah.

31:26 I just wanted to kind of let some of it play out.

Terrence Howard 31:27 Okay. So you wanna start with the F-

Eric Weinstein 31:29 The flower of life.

Terrence Howard 31:30 ... the flower of life.

Eric Weinstein 31:30 Yeah.

Terrence Howard 31:30 Can ... Jamie, can you pull that up from ... please, from, uh, my book. It's on page 120-134. Uh, T-C-O-T-L-C.com, or it should be in the regular thing.

Eric Weinstein 31:42 And also that, that blender thing is very cool.

Terrence Howard 31:45 Yeah, which ... For rebuilding of Saturn? Or-

Eric Weinstein 31:47 No. The one that you were talking to this other guy, where he's asking you questions-

Terrence Howard 31:51 Yeah. Jeff Manzi.

Eric Weinstein 31:51 ... about the five forms. And you have-

Terrence Howard 31:53 Jeff Manzi.

Eric Weinstein 31:53 I fou- I found that through sleuthery on the internet-

Terrence Howard 31:57 Oh.

Eric Weinstein 31:57 ... where it was, it was doable. And, and because it ... You know, in particular, when you, when you do them opaque, it's very hard to see. Sometimes when you let it become translucent, it's easier to see.

Terrence Howard 32:06 Well, that's why ... While he's getting that, I'm going to-

Narrator 32:09 Oh, I, uh ...

Eric Weinstein 32:09 Got it.

Narrator 32:10 It's on your ... No, no, no, I don't. I'm ... On your website, I don't know exactly where your ... the book would be.

Terrence Howard 32:14 Oh, um-

Narrator 32:15 Is it one of these links?

Terrence Howard 32:16 Y- ... No, no, no, just go down, um, your ... I think it'll be little more square root of two. No, no, no, no, no, no.

Narrator 32:26 That's far.

Terrence Howard 32:27 Um ... Yeah, if you'll just type into my book, T-C-O-

Narrator 32:32 That's what I'm loo- ... Well, where is the book?

Terrence Howard 32:34 It's ...

Eric Weinstein 32:35 Or you could also Google O-T-O-E-T.

Terrence Howard 32:39 O-T-O-E-T will, will take you to that?

Eric Weinstein 32:41 Yeah, one times one equals two is the-

Terrence Howard 32:43 Yes, but-

Eric Weinstein 32:44 ... acronym.

Terrence Howard 32:45 If you go to ... Just go to T-C-O-T-L-c.com, and I'll be able to pull it up. I, I'll ... 'Cause in-

Narrator 32:50 There you go.

Terrence Howard 32:51 T-C-O-

Narrator 32:52 T-C-O.

Terrence Howard 32:53 ... T-L-C-

Narrator 32:54 T-L-C.

Terrence Howard 32:54 ... .com. Yep, right below there. Terrence Howard.

Narrator 32:57 Okay.

Terrence Howard 32:57 Yep. To that far on-

Eric Weinstein 32:58 Flower of life, this?

Terrence Howard 32:59 Yep. Flower of life. Let's see if you just open up the book. You gotta open it, though.

Eric Weinstein 33:05 Uh-huh.

Terrence Howard 33:05 Download. Yeah. Down-

Eric Weinstein 33:07 Right there?

Terrence Howard 33:08 Mm. That's ... I don't know if that's what downloads the book.

Narrator 33:12 Yeah, I don't know.

Terrence Howard 33:12 Let's see. Open.

Narrator 33:16 I'm clicking that and that just takes me to this, and then it's not doing anything.

Terrence Howard 33:19 It's not doing it.

Eric Weinstein 33:20 Let's try searching Google O-T-O-E-T. And then several ... All right. So if you go ... And then put in Howard.

Terrence Howard 33:37 Um, no.

Eric Weinstein 33:39 Or put in P- PDF.

Terrence Howard 33:42 Hmm.

Eric Weinstein 33:42 Should be able to pick ... Yeah, okay. That's probably right.

Terrence Howard 33:46 Yeah, there you go.

Eric Weinstein 33:47 Okay.

Terrence Howard 33:47 And then go to page 134 on the right-hand side.

Eric Weinstein 33:51 But you do have several editions.

Terrence Howard 33:54 Yeah. I didn't even ... That other one, somebody else set up there to probably-

Eric Weinstein 33:57 Okay.

Terrence Howard 33:57 ... distract and keep people from being able to find it. Yeah.

Eric Weinstein 34:01 It's probably the government.

Terrence Howard 34:02 Yeah. We're gonna do that later. You're gonna love that.

Eric Weinstein 34:05 (laughs)

34:05 (laughs)

Terrence Howard 34:05 Mm-hmm. They're coming. That ... Just tap on the ... Just tap on that, that, um, tool right there.

Eric Weinstein 34:12 Okay.

34:12 Okay.

Terrence Howard 34:13 So this is ... Yeah, this is the-

Eric Weinstein 34:13 And we can rotate that-

Terrence Howard 34:15 Yep.

Eric Weinstein 34:15 ... with the cursor and get a-

Terrence Howard 34:16 Uh, what's great about this, I'll be able to pull pieces out of it. Yeah, so just tap onto that big-

Eric Weinstein 34:21 Brilliant.

Terrence Howard 34:21 ... drill. That ... So we can start with this.

Eric Weinstein 34:24 Okay.

Terrence Howard 34:24 We can start with that.

Eric Weinstein 34:24 So the way I understand it, 'cause I didn't know anything of ... I've seen this pattern before, didn't know its history. Uh, I know you can sort of construct it with ruler and compass, which is sort of a mathematical thing about what you can and can't construct with two simple instruments. But what these overlapping circles are, is a question, and the way in which I got to understand how Terrence sees the world is he says, "Look, there's this very old pattern that's distributed all over the world, and there isn't a great explanation for why it's found in so many different places," at least as far as I'm aware and part-

Terrence Howard 34:57 Mm-hmm.

Eric Weinstein 34:57 ... part of your point. And so I think you took a sort of Straussian approach to this by saying, "I bet that this thing is hiding a secret, and that the reason that this is widely distributed is that it's cryptic. There's something that has to be understood that is not on the surface." And then you said something that's very reminiscent of Plato's cave, which is that maybe this is like a shadow on a flat wall, and that those two things are exploitable. And so the idea that this is occurring in a surface is, first of all, suspicious to you because of that curved linear triangle that you see-

Terrence Howard 35:36 Mm.

Eric Weinstein 35:36 ... in black.

Terrence Howard 35:37 And if you-

Eric Weinstein 35:37 And so you said, "I wonder if ..." You know, people always say, "As above, so below," but what if you said, "As below, so above," and you imagine that there was a three-dimensional structure floating above this that actually projects down to this and distorts down to this. So, that's the first idea. The first idea is it's not this, it's the thing that projected to this, and that's what you mean when you say opening the flower.

Terrence Howard 36:00 Uh, 'cause the flower ... When I was researching where the platonic solids came from, this is the oldest version that I got. From all the parti- all the- all of antiquity, it came back to them-

Eric Weinstein 36:16 Well, there are no s- There are no platonic solids-

Terrence Howard 36:18 No.

Eric Weinstein 36:18 ... because you're in d- dimension two, except for what you built, which is the thing above in black.

Terrence Howard 36:23 But what they did years ago, 6,000 years ago-

Eric Weinstein 36:26 Yeah.

Terrence Howard 36:26 ... was draw straight lines where the circles overlapped, and I thought in, in what I was reasoning-

Eric Weinstein 36:32 Yeah.

Terrence Howard 36:32 ... with regard to all energy being expressed in motion, all motion being expressed in waves, all waves being curved, and that there were no straight lines in the universe, so I was like-

Eric Weinstein 36:42 So there's several errors in what you just said. E- if I stop there, we'll get off track again.

Terrence Howard 36:46 Okay, well, we'll-

Eric Weinstein 36:46 Yeah, but you should, you should correct those errors while we're there.

36:49 Okay. It is not true that all energy is expressed in motion.

Terrence Howard 36:53 What energy is not expressed in motion?

Eric Weinstein 36:54 Potential energy.... is not expressed in motion. If I have a weight on a spring, which is sort of the quintessential, people don't know this, but most of physics comes out of the system represented by a weight on a spring.

Terrence Howard 37:06 Mm-hmm.

Eric Weinstein 37:07 So the simple harmonic oscillator is the heart of, of all physics, even the most theoretical physics. It's very, very strange thing, Hooke's law. When that weight is going up and down, if the spring is frictionless, energy is conserved. Now, at the top and at the bottom, that weight is not moving because all of the energy is in the potential of the spring.

Terrence Howard 37:30 It's in the stress of the, the crystallization that has occurred with, within that, that system.

Eric Weinstein 37:37 And then you will say something like, "And if you-"

Terrence Howard 37:39 The moment that ... But that energy is still being held together. There is still energy there and it's still moving at, at a microscopic level. It's still spinning centripetally.

Eric Weinstein 37:49 So we have to get into what ... Y- you will make a point, for example, like-

Terrence Howard 37:54 But is that true, what he's saying?

Joe Rogan 37:55 You're saying that it's still in motion, it's just in motion at, in a lower frequency?

Eric Weinstein 37:59 No.

Terrence Howard 37:59 No. There's nothing moving at the, the ...

Eric Weinstein 38:03 Y- y- y- i- e- l- let me get, show you what goes wrong in the interaction.

Terrence Howard 38:05 Okay.

Eric Weinstein 38:05 Terrence says, "Show me in nature a single straight line."

Terrence Howard 38:08 Okay.

Eric Weinstein 38:08 And I liked your point about Euclidean women. That was awesome.

Joe Rogan 38:11 (laughs)

Terrence Howard 38:12 That was, that was from W- Alan Watts.

Eric Weinstein 38:13 All right.

Terrence Howard 38:15 Yeah. (laughs)

Eric Weinstein 38:15 So if I, if I show this to Terrence, 'cause I just bought this from the end of the seventh ray.

Terrence Howard 38:21 Mm-hmm.

Eric Weinstein 38:22 And-

Terrence Howard 38:22 A lot of straight lines.

Eric Weinstein 38:23 ... a lot of straight lines.

Terrence Howard 38:24 Yeah.

Eric Weinstein 38:24 Now Terrence is gonna say-

Terrence Howard 38:24 Or what it's, you would think is a straight line.

Eric Weinstein 38:26 You see what, see, exactly.

Terrence Howard 38:27 But when you look at it under an electron microscope-

Eric Weinstein 38:29 Mi- it's-

Terrence Howard 38:30 ... you're going to see the crystalline structure. So again, this configuration is an, an illusion.

Joe Rogan 38:36 It's not, you're just saying it's not perfect.

Terrence Howard 38:38 Well- It's an optical illusion-

Eric Weinstein 38:39 He's-

Terrence Howard 38:39 ... because crystals form in symmetrical-

Eric Weinstein 38:43 Yes. O- y- very often like-

Terrence Howard 38:45 But a lot of straight lines.

Eric Weinstein 38:46 A lot of straight lines.

Terrence Howard 38:48 Perceived straight lines, but are they-

Joe Rogan 38:49 Right. But it, and, and, but every atom is filled with empty space. I mean, we could take this down to the, like there is no matter.

Eric Weinstein 38:55 Well that's, that is ...

Joe Rogan 38:56 We could get crazy.

Eric Weinstein 38:57 So I'm try-

Terrence Howard 38:57 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:57 What, where, we're, we're, you know what I'm saying?

Eric Weinstein 38:59 We're about to.

Terrence Howard 38:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:59 Well, you've seen that Mexican cave.

Eric Weinstein 39:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:01 That's the best example of it ever.

Terrence Howard 39:02 I know.

Joe Rogan 39:02 That Mexican cave's amazing. It's insane. The best example I've ever seen of crystals.

Eric Weinstein 39:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:08 Where ... You've seen it?

Eric Weinstein 39:09 No.

Joe Rogan 39:09 Oh my God, it's insane.

Eric Weinstein 39:10 Okay.

Terrence Howard 39:11 120 degrees in there.

Joe Rogan 39:11 You, you, you just, let, just for a little sidetrack, let's take a look at it.

Eric Weinstein 39:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:14 Because this, uh, Mexican cave is probably one of the most spectacular things that exists on Earth.

Eric Weinstein 39:22 By the way, the spaceship behind you is supposed to be a mushroom, Joe.

Joe Rogan 39:24 No, it's a spaceship. That's the classic UFO shape.

Eric Weinstein 39:27 Yeah. There we go.

Joe Rogan 39:27 And that's me with the headphones. Um, look at that.

Terrence Howard 39:30 (laughs)

Eric Weinstein 39:30 That's amazing.

Joe Rogan 39:31 How in, how is, how insane is that this was created on Earth just-

Eric Weinstein 39:35 By nature. And it's crazy.

Joe Rogan 39:35 ... just by nature. It's so different than anything else we see that it makes our mind go, "What the fuck?"

Eric Weinstein 39:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:42 Like those are crystals? How?

Eric Weinstein 39:43 How?

Joe Rogan 39:44 What happened?

Eric Weinstein 39:44 Okay.

Joe Rogan 39:45 Wild.

Eric Weinstein 39:45 So in this-

Joe Rogan 39:46 A lot of straight lines.

Eric Weinstein 39:46 ... beautiful thing, I would say there are a lot of straight lines, but I've also studied Terrence enough to know that he's gonna say, "Ah."

Terrence Howard 39:53 They're not perfectly straight.

Eric Weinstein 39:54 They're not perfectly s-

Terrence Howard 39:55 No, they, uh, they, they're not straight at all.

Joe Rogan 39:56 You're right.

Eric Weinstein 39:56 (laughs)

Terrence Howard 39:56 The moment you look at them through um, through an electron microscope, you will see all of the curves that are-

Eric Weinstein 40:00 So right, this is part of where we get into-

Joe Rogan 40:02 Right. So they're not s- precisely straight is your point.

Terrence Howard 40:05 (laughs)

Eric Weinstein 40:05 And in f- in fact, let's imagine that I, let, let's-

Joe Rogan 40:08 But the Earth isn't precisely circular, right?

Terrence Howard 40:10 No.

Eric Weinstein 40:10 No. It's, yeah.

Terrence Howard 40:12 It's a five mile move.

Eric Weinstein 40:12 Very far away. F- we use this thing called the geoid, which is not circular either, but at least it's smooth.

Joe Rogan 40:19 Right.

Terrence Howard 40:19 Yes.

Eric Weinstein 40:19 And we have many different geoids. Let's not get-

Joe Rogan 40:21 It does seem odd, though, that the Earth isn't round totally.

Terrence Howard 40:25 No, it's, well, the Earth is aging. It's being, it's on its way out.

Joe Rogan 40:29 (laughs)

Terrence Howard 40:29 It's on its way out. It, it used to be perfectly spherical-

Eric Weinstein 40:32 Why does Earth3 always go for a drink here?

Terrence Howard 40:33 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:33 We're falling apart. We need some Botox.

Terrence Howard 40:35 But we don't. We're good.

Joe Rogan 40:36 The Earth needs Botox.

Terrence Howard 40:37 The Earth just-

Joe Rogan 40:37 You want a drink? We could drink.

Eric Weinstein 40:38 No, not, not this early.

Joe Rogan 40:39 Make it more exciting.

Eric Weinstein 40:40 Not this early.

Joe Rogan 40:40 This early? What does that mean?

Terrence Howard 40:42 It's-

Eric Weinstein 40:42 In the COVID-

Joe Rogan 40:43 You're an American man.

Terrence Howard 40:44 I would love one.

Joe Rogan 40:44 You should be able to do whatever the fuck you want, goddammit.

Terrence Howard 40:47 I'm in Sweden right now.

Joe Rogan 40:47 And you're in Texas.

Eric Weinstein 40:49 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:49 You're an American man in Texas. This is a f- this is a free state, sir.

Terrence Howard 40:53 (laughs)

Eric Weinstein 40:53 (laughs)

Terrence Howard 40:53 What do you have?

Joe Rogan 40:54 We have whiskey.

Terrence Howard 40:55 Oh, I would love one.

Eric Weinstein 40:56 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:56 That's what we need. We need whiskey.

Terrence Howard 40:58 Yes.

Joe Rogan 40:58 Let's get some whiskey and some ice to get this, lose, this party up.

Terrence Howard 40:59 Yes, and then we're gonna get into the wave conjugations 'cause you're gonna love this.

Joe Rogan 41:02 All right. I wanna show you something and I wanted to ask your opinion before I forget.

Eric Weinstein 41:06 Sure.

Joe Rogan 41:06 There was a r- a recently, well, I've recently d- uh, found it online.

Eric Weinstein 41:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:09 Um, of these two photons that were entangled, and it looks like a yin and a yang. Have you seen this?

Eric Weinstein 41:15 No. Uh, yes, no, I, uh, it's not true. I have seen it out of the corner of my eye. I did not study what caused this.

Joe Rogan 41:20 Um, I d- I had to run it by you 'cause you're probably the only one that I know other than maybe Terrence that could understand what the fuck they're saying.

Terrence Howard 41:26 I have a model of it.

Joe Rogan 41:27 (laughs)

Eric Weinstein 41:28 I don't ... Okay. I-

Terrence Howard 41:29 I do. And I believe-

Eric Weinstein 41:30 And I don't.

Terrence Howard 41:31 I do, I ain't bullshitting.

Joe Rogan 41:32 I believe you. I believe you.

Terrence Howard 41:33 (laughs)

Eric Weinstein 41:33 I have a model of it.

Joe Rogan 41:33 So what are they saying? How did they see this? Like, this biphoton digital holography. Can someone explain that?

Eric Weinstein 41:40 I ... Maybe, but I don't have, I don't know what those words mean yet.

Joe Rogan 41:42 Okay. Do you know what it means, Terrence, like how they could see this?

Terrence Howard 41:47 Uh, a biphoton, bi always meaning two, but they're, they're examining two-

Joe Rogan 41:52 Someone get Mitch Hirakawa on the phone.

Terrence Howard 41:53 Did they, did they smash them?

Eric Weinstein 41:54 (laughs)

Terrence Howard 41:54 Are they smashing them together? What's their process of looking at it?

Joe Rogan 41:58 Okay. I, that's a very good question. Um ...

Terrence Howard 42:00 And they're using the same interferometer that, that Michelson-Morley experiment which turned out to be, it, it turned out that it actually proved there was an ether. They just, there's a paper-

Eric Weinstein 42:11 Well, there's a way in which you're right about the ether, to be blunt.

Terrence Howard 42:14 That's what I've defined is the ether.

Joe Rogan 42:15 Just listen to this statement in the beginning.

Eric Weinstein 42:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:17 Look, uh, uh, you know, put the bong down and listen to this.

Eric Weinstein 42:21 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:21 "High dimensional biphoton states are promising resources for quantum applications ranging from high dimensional quantum communications to quantum imaging." Just that phrase, what fucking percentage of human beings breathing on Earth right now have any idea what any of that means?

Eric Weinstein 42:39 I imagine that you have a state in a, um, bosonic Fock space, which is multi-particle. So you've got something in the degree two, um, level of a bosonic Fock space where the two photons were created together.... and that's gonna be where the entanglement comes from. High dimensional, I don't know what it means because I know too many different... Eh, I assume it's a term of art in this area. And what they're saying is, if I can create something that is geographically distributed, but also linked at the point of, uh, creation. Like, a, if a photon decays into a, uh, an electron-positron pair, those two are gonna be entangled. And if you make a measurement in a quantum sense of one, you seal the fate of the entire system. And so what they're trying to say is, if, you know, if you wanna get jiggy, people always wanna talk about faster-than-light communications by taking an entangled pair and saying that if I do something in one place, I know what happens outside of my light con- ... So we can give meaning to these things, then you have to say, "Well, it doesn't allow you to c- create information transfer faster than the speed of light, and you have to be very careful and precise about it."

Terrence Howard 43:52 I-

Eric Weinstein 43:52 But if you just start getting jiggy-

Terrence Howard 43:54 ... unless-

Eric Weinstein 43:54 ... then you start thinking-

Terrence Howard 43:55 ... you introduce the ether.

Joe Rogan 43:57 Thank you, sir.

Eric Weinstein 43:58 So the ether-

Joe Rogan 43:58 Yeah.

Eric Weinstein 43:59 So, you know, in part, when I've been here o- on previous versions, uh, of JRE, I talked about-

Joe Rogan 44:05 About flow trace there?

Eric Weinstein 44:06 ... about vector bundles. And in a certain sense, how do you have a wave without a medium? The medium was supposed to be this ether, but the medium is actually something called a vector bundle. It's a little bit weird that you're a w-

Terrence Howard 44:17 No. It's, it's perfect 'cause the vector bundle... Go, go ahead. I'm not gonna inter-

Eric Weinstein 44:21 You're a wave-

Terrence Howard 44:22 Yes.

Eric Weinstein 44:22 ... in a medium, and you as a wave don't know (laughs) that you're a wave, and you don't know what medium you live in, and it's, it's funny that you go through life not understanding what you are.

Terrence Howard 44:32 No. But the, that medium, that, that luminiferous medium, ether, that Maxwell wrote all of his equations off of, Newton believed that light was propagated on that same medium. The only reason that special relativity came along was because they couldn't... They had misread the results from the Michelson-Morley experiment because it did show a slight change or some drag. But they, from that point on were... Because Einstein's theory of relativity was so easy and it predicted all of the movements of things, it did... They allowed... They, they abandoned-

Eric Weinstein 45:09 They had a bad idea of what the ether was going to be, and special relativity said-

Terrence Howard 45:13 'Cause they thought it was still.

Eric Weinstein 45:14 Yeah.

Terrence Howard 45:15 They thought it was-

Eric Weinstein 45:15 In a certain sense. And what you are trying to say, the way I interpret it, again, and I don't know if, if I'm right if we don't do the work, is, hey, the spiritual successor to the idea of the ether exists.

Terrence Howard 45:30 Yes.

Eric Weinstein 45:30 And that thing has properties, and if you say... If, if I put a vector bundle on top of a Lorentzian manifold, then you don't have a contradiction, and if you call that the ether, that's more or less w- what we work with. And then we do this weird thing where we say, "Well, they used to think the ether existed, and it didn't. Ha ha ha." And that's not really-

Terrence Howard 45:50 No. 'Cause that's when they said that space was a vacuum, and they realized that space is not a-

Eric Weinstein 45:54 The vacuum ain't a vacuum.

Terrence Howard 45:55 ... it's not a vacuum.

Eric Weinstein 45:56 Yeah. The-

Terrence Howard 45:56 It's not a vacuum.

Eric Weinstein 45:57 The vac- Do you know how much is going on in that vacuum? It's all going on in that vacuum.

Terrence Howard 45:59 Yes, that, all of this stuff and that's-

Eric Weinstein 46:01 I understand.

Terrence Howard 46:02 So what's-

Eric Weinstein 46:02 So this is the thing which is if you step on this thing the wrong way, everybody laughs and says, "Ha ha ha. He doesn't understand the Michelson-Morley experiment. He doesn't understand why there's no ether." And then we secretly sneak it back in, in this-

Terrence Howard 46:15 Thank you.

Eric Weinstein 46:16 Thank you, Joe. Cheers.

Joe Rogan 46:18 Cheers, Joe.

Terrence Howard 46:18 Yeah, cheers. (glasses clinking)

Eric Weinstein 46:20 Yeah, look at these professional spherical cubes.

Joe Rogan 46:23 Yeah. They're cool, right? Brown ice cream with a sh-

Terrence Howard 46:25 Ah. Now I can have a conversation.

Joe Rogan 46:27 Oh, yeah. Now. (laughs)

Terrence Howard 46:28 Mm. Ahh.

Joe Rogan 46:29 Freedom.

Eric Weinstein 46:29 So, uh-

Joe Rogan 46:30 Mental freedom in a glass.

Eric Weinstein 46:31 So, so-

Joe Rogan 46:33 Or in prison.

Eric Weinstein 46:34 ... i- if you're careful about it, it makes sense. If you're not careful about it, the whole thing blows up in your face.

Terrence Howard 46:40 And the reason that I speak about the ether, all of the wave conjugations, all of my patents have been defining different aspects of the ether. I believe that I've defined the electric side, the plasm- the plasmics- the plasmoid side, and I believe that I've defined the magnetic side and the constitution between them. I mean, I, that's what-

Eric Weinstein 47:01 So we have to-

Terrence Howard 47:01 ... I wanna show.

Eric Weinstein 47:02 I wanna get to that.

Joe Rogan 47:03 Let's go back to the flower, flower chain.

Terrence Howard 47:04 Oh, but before you go from that other spot-

Joe Rogan 47:06 Okay.

Terrence Howard 47:06 ... if you look at that picture again of those two-

Joe Rogan 47:09 The yin yang?

Terrence Howard 47:09 ... photons interacting, it looks like it's at the center of, of what would typically be a whirlpool. This is like the very center of a whirlpool. So they've got them moving right and by each other or in creating that vortice, that natural vortice. That's what they took the picture of. They looked d- directly down at something being... at, at two lights moving a fluid.

Joe Rogan 47:33 And they described how they take the picture? It's so complicated. Jamie, go back to where it was where they were explaining the, um, what they use. Here, here it is. "Here we introduce biphoton digital holography in a- ana- in analogy to off-access digital holography, where we coin- coincidence imaging of the superposition of an unknown state with a referenced state is used to perform quantum state tomography." What the fuck?

Eric Weinstein 47:59 (laughs)

Terrence Howard 47:59 See, but that's because of-

Joe Rogan 48:00 (laughs)

Terrence Howard 48:01 ... that's because of the uncertainty and Schrodinger-

Joe Rogan 48:04 Right.

Terrence Howard 48:04 ... all of that. But if you were able, because they started off trying to predict a, an electron cloud, if... And, and find a little particle inside of it and couldn't predict it, so all these uncertainties and probabilities came out. But they were doing things on a two-dimensional basis. That's what I believe that I've figured out with the wave conjugations because they talk about the hyper- they, they show the pieces of hyperbolic space to where you don't have to go through all these unnecessary steps to reach it.

Joe Rogan 48:34 I am just so happy that someone's doing something like this. I'm so happy that we can talk about it. I th- I don't think most people have any understanding of what's going on at the highest levels of this kinda science 'cause it's so damn fascinating. These people are finding the, the very building blocks of the universe and studying-

Eric Weinstein 48:55 Well, this-

Joe Rogan 48:55 ... them. It's fascinating.

Eric Weinstein 48:57 But this is a bit up from that. I mean, the, the-

Joe Rogan 48:59 Yeah.

Eric Weinstein 48:59 ... tomography is like how we...... assemble a picture of you when we do a, a, an NMR or a CAT scan. Uh, we have this thing called the radon transform, where we send, um, you know, waves through your body and then we assemble a picture of what's inside your body, uh, reconstructing it based on sending probes in and, and measuring, uh-

Terrence Howard 49:24 Oh.

Eric Weinstein 49:24 ... how the system responds. W- we could get through this, but I can tell you that I can't read this instantly. I, it's gonna... you know, that would take me 15 minutes with looking things up.

Terrence Howard 49:35 S- see-

Joe Rogan 49:36 See, and the things that I wanna...

Terrence Howard 49:37 ... yeah, it's... I, I was just gonna say, it's just an unbelievably fascinating time that we can actually look at these quantum entangled photons like that-

Eric Weinstein 49:47 But we-

Terrence Howard 49:47 ... and just see it.

Eric Weinstein 49:47 ... but we, we need to do a better job. Look, right now we're in a crisis where no one knows what's true, nobody knows who's full of shit. Nobody knows where they can trus- you know-

Terrence Howard 49:57 Right.

Eric Weinstein 49:57 ... what they can trust, who they can trust. And one of the things that actually, you know, moved me to come and to, to reach out to Joe is, is that by default, um, I think... you know, I've been... I've, I've addressed the National Academy of Sciences four times, I think, um, because they were lying and I caught them. And so they wanted to know how much I knew about their lie. It's weird to think that this little studio, in a weird way, is one of the rivals of universities when we don't know what's going on at Harvard, uh, as you, you know, have recently seen-

Terrence Howard 50:30 Mm-hmm.

Eric Weinstein 50:30 ... we, we, we don't kick out plagiarists, we, we, we don't check what's going on at the National Institute of Health. And so it's very strange that this table is one of the last things that is trusted by many people, and that's one of the reasons I'm here, which is people have a chance to see people in conversation about things. And, you know, you screw up, but the conversation's recorded and we all go on and people have a chance to see what's coming out. If we can go back to the Flower of Life, I can try to-

Terrence Howard 50:58 Yeah, I would love that. But like with the flower, all of these things, I took... I went up to Oxford eight years ago and tried to present them there to be examined. They didn't wanna take me seriously-

Eric Weinstein 51:13 Because you keep coming at it-

Terrence Howard 51:14 ... 'cause the, 'cause the one times one-

Eric Weinstein 51:16 ... in the way that you're doing.

Terrence Howard 51:16 ... when I say the one times one, but, uh, like I said, that was a metaphor to say-

Eric Weinstein 51:20 Terrence, nobody hears it that way.

Terrence Howard 51:20 ... something's wrong, something's wrong, but they know something's wrong with the math. It's not, it's not adding up.

Eric Weinstein 51:26 Well, so you br- you bring up renormalization theory a lot.

Terrence Howard 51:29 Right.

Eric Weinstein 51:29 Renormalization theory is a way of saying we know that we're working with math that's wrong, and on the other hand, we have a way of working with math that's wrong even though we know it's wrong. If you have an error of a particular kind and you f- can find an expression with the same error that's different in the denominator, sometimes you can cancel the part that's wrong because you introduced it twice. So introducing two problems is better than having only one problem because you have the opportunity to have one problem kill another.

Terrence Howard 52:00 Cancel it out.

Eric Weinstein 52:00 So in this a-

Joe Rogan 52:01 Is, is, is there a potential future where human beings, through whatever means, develop a superior method of mathematics that doesn't have a problem with the number two, that doesn't have all these issues that we're talking about? That there isn't a pro-

Terrence Howard 52:14 Well, that's what I think I've done with my wave conjugations. It solves all of those problems. That's what I... I can't wait to talk about it.

Eric Weinstein 52:22 Okay. Okay.

Terrence Howard 52:22 It solves all the problems.

Joe Rogan 52:23 Let's, let's crack. (laughs)

Terrence Howard 52:23 So this is... like we said, we start with the tetraion. Now, I believe-

Eric Weinstein 52:27 Wait. No, no, no. We haven't gotten to the tetraion. We're in-

Terrence Howard 52:29 Oh, you're just talking about the flower.

Joe Rogan 52:30 Okay.

Eric Weinstein 52:30 Look, you have a story.

Terrence Howard 52:32 Yes.

Eric Weinstein 52:33 And by doing the Nantucket Sleigh Ride, you lose everybody like me-

Terrence Howard 52:36 Okay.

Eric Weinstein 52:36 ... 'cause nobody, nobody thinks it's real. And what parts of it are real and what parts of it are wrong and what parts can be improved and what parts should be improved and how important it is, is, is never gonna get adjudicated.

Terrence Howard 52:48 Beautiful.

Eric Weinstein 52:48 So you start off with the Flower of Life. It's a very coherent story that this thing is found all over the world. I learned from this. I didn't understand how widespread it was. Uh, I didn't know that there was a mystery of it. I know something about sacred geometry as a kind of spiritual geometric thing. We can talk about it later. Terrence has a couple of ideas, maybe three, one of which is maybe it's not about that Flower of Life because that's in a two-dimensional plane. Maybe that is a shadow cast by something in higher dimensions and it's a cryptic message from an advanced consciousness that will open its, um, secrets when we finally understand it. Now, there was something, for example, called the Antikythera mechanism, which is a bunch of gears found by this Greek island of Antikythera. And famously, it was just in the Athens Museum.

Terrence Howard 53:40 It predicts the constellations and-

Eric Weinstein 53:42 We didn't know that.

Terrence Howard 53:43 ... all of that.

Eric Weinstein 53:43 There were two cats who really focused on it. One was named Derek de Solla Price and the other was Richard Feynman, and they were obsessed with it. And it turned out that that thing completely rewrote our understanding (laughs) of how much ancient wisdom and knowledge there was because this was a mechanical calculator for understanding the positions of celestial objects far more advanced than we had any ide- idea was possible.

Joe Rogan 54:05 Yeah.

Eric Weinstein 54:05 So if you want an analogy, in part I'm trying to Steel Man you-

Terrence Howard 54:09 Yeah, I'm helping.

Eric Weinstein 54:09 ... we have a situation in which the Antikythera mechanism gives you a possible example of what the Flower of Life might be. It might be a cryptic instruction. And a, a different version of this, the, the Keralite School of Astronomy, which was a religious school in the south of India, in the west coast of India, um, more or less-

Joe Rogan 54:32 There it is.

Eric Weinstein 54:32 ... worked out-

Joe Rogan 54:32 Look at that beautiful thing.

Eric Weinstein 54:35 Well, that's a, that's a reconstruction.

Joe Rogan 54:37 Yeah.

Terrence Howard 54:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:37 Yeah.

Eric Weinstein 54:37 That thing.

Joe Rogan 54:38 Yeah, that's the real one.

Eric Weinstein 54:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:39 But I mean, what are the... when you look at the actual reconstruction, what they think it actually looks like-

Eric Weinstein 54:42 Oh, if, if we-

Joe Rogan 54:43 Fascinating.

Eric Weinstein 54:44 ... c- can we get the video for the reconstruction?

Joe Rogan 54:47 Yes.

Eric Weinstein 54:47 It's mind-blowing.

Joe Rogan 54:48 And what, what year was this that they believe it was constructed? 2,000 years ago?

Terrence Howard 54:53 This is when they still believed in-

Joe Rogan 54:55 2,000 years ago.

Terrence Howard 54:55 ... the Ptolemaic-

Eric Weinstein 54:57 Yeah.

Terrence Howard 54:57 ... you know, example of the world, but this doesn't seem to follow Ptolemaic, um, equations, those 39 equations from hell.

Joe Rogan 55:03 Well, it's... you know, because of so many different factors, war, natural disasters, there's been a lot of moments in history where shit got lost.... just the k- the sp- this- the pyramids are the best example of that, right? Like, what the fuck did they do? We don't really know. You know, we don't really know how they did it.

Eric Weinstein 55:20 Well, it doesn't-

Joe Rogan 55:22 It's-

Eric Weinstein 55:22 We were just talking about Wern- Werner Herzog, who-

Joe Rogan 55:23 Yes.

Eric Weinstein 55:24 Werner Herzog created an entire film, Fitzcarraldo, just to test his theory about how to move heavy objects over a mountain. Right?

Joe Rogan 55:34 How-

Eric Weinstein 55:34 So, he wrote, as ... He wrote a- (laughs) an entertainment to test an engineering theory. And this idea about entertainers, um, not being scientists or engineers is just total bunk. Like, Werner Herzog is an engineer. And-

Joe Rogan 55:47 He's also a, a actor in a cheese ball movie.

Eric Weinstein 55:50 For-

Joe Rogan 55:50 He was in, uh, Reacher-

Eric Weinstein 55:51 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:51 ... with Tom Cruise. He was the bad guy.

Eric Weinstein 55:53 In Pittsburgh. It was-

Terrence Howard 55:54 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:54 (laughs)

Eric Weinstein 55:56 It gives that guy the opportunity to cut off his finger or something.

Joe Rogan 55:58 Hilarious.

Eric Weinstein 55:59 It was hilarious.

Joe Rogan 55:59 He's good, though.

Eric Weinstein 56:00 Um, Hedy Lamarr, famous for-

Joe Rogan 56:02 Oh, yeah.

Eric Weinstein 56:03 ... spread spectrum t- technology.

Joe Rogan 56:04 Yeah. She invented wifi-

Eric Weinstein 56:06 So, I, I don't find it-

Joe Rogan 56:06 ... essentially.

Eric Weinstein 56:06 That's one of the reasons I just ... I believe that we listen to people who have, have things to say. So, if we go back to-

Joe Rogan 56:11 Back to the flower.

Eric Weinstein 56:12 ... the flower of life. So, Terrence has a couple of ideas, one of which is, this is the shadow, another of which is that, um, once you go into higher dimensions, you should be thinking in, um ... So, you should be thinking, uh, of these curve linear structures. And then instead of focusing on the spheres, you should focus on the areas in between, the voids. And in crystallography, you might call this the interstitial, the interstitial voids. Um, so there's several ideas that ... This confused, by the way, Neil deGrasse Tyson, because he said, "I don't know where these shapes come from, but they are beautiful." That was like the faint praise-

Terrence Howard 56:58 Yes.

Eric Weinstein 56:58 ... that he ends his critique with. So, what Terrence is doing here, is he's saying, look, the c- the circles are, are cross-sections of spheres. And the spheres have to be placed in very precise places to generate what Terrence is going to start talking about as wave conjugations. And he has different ways that spheres run into each other. Then he says something very cryptic, where he says, "If you drop a-"

Terrence Howard 57:28 Pebble.

Eric Weinstein 57:29 "... in the center of a spherical lake, s- circular, circularly symmetric lake, the wave will radiate out until it hits the wall, the shore, and then it will radiate back." And so he's talking about this, and he says wave conjugations. And wave conjugation didn't call up anything directly when I heard him say it.

Terrence Howard 57:49 They would call it a phase conjugation, but-

Eric Weinstein 57:51 Well, th- or they would talk about, you know, the conjugate wave coming back if, you know, if, if you do something, uh-

Terrence Howard 57:58 Yes.

Eric Weinstein 57:59 ... like a garden hose that's affixed to the wall. The wall, it'll hit the wall and come back or something. So, what Terrence is talking about is the idea ... And, and you could do this, where we could drop, like, let's say six stones in precise places in water. And then, you know, using super slow-mo, watch what happens as these waves in precisely placed places run into each other. Because really what physics is, is waves and collision.

Terrence Howard 58:27 And they're gonna create a particular cymatics, which is going to show the harmonic points where matter and all of those things occur. That's the predicament they-

Eric Weinstein 58:35 I'm not going there yet.

Terrence Howard 58:36 Okay. Okay. (laughs)

Eric Weinstein 58:37 So then, what Terrence does is he has, in Blender, um, some means of bringing up platonic solids that are not the usual. So, I bought some of these platonic solids, uh, from Amazon. And you see that they're all, uh, extremely Cartesian.

Terrence Howard 59:01 Mm-hmm.

Eric Weinstein 59:02 They're made up of flat faces, or a best attempt to do flat faces. Terrence says, "I don't think that that has to be the case. If you generate these things from this pattern ..." Um, and he focuses on the tetrahedron and an octahedral structure that-

Terrence Howard 59:17 Can you go up, Jamie, please, so we can see it as, um, from th- that, that side perspective of it? Yeah. Go around.

Eric Weinstein 59:24 Okay. So, what that is, is a curve linear tetrahedron with spherical ... And it's not actually hyperbolic. Those are gonna be, uh, positive curvature, not negative curvature.

Terrence Howard 59:34 This is negative curvature.

Eric Weinstein 59:35 No, that's not gonna ... That's gonna be positive curvature.

Terrence Howard 59:38 Compressing in.

Eric Weinstein 59:39 Eh. It ... I think it's positive curvature because those are gonna be s- cer- parts of spheres.

Terrence Howard 59:44 The spheres are interacting-

Eric Weinstein 59:47 Yes.

Terrence Howard 59:47 ... pushing inside of this.

Eric Weinstein 59:47 But negative curvature would be more like a Pringles trip, a chip, where the, the principal axis of curvature went in different directions. So, I think it's not negative curvature.

Terrence Howard 59:58 So, this isn't a negative space between four bubbles?

Eric Weinstein 1:00:00 No. What you mean by negative space ... Negative curvature and negative space are different concepts. So, the word negative is appearing twice, and that's why we're confused. Again, you know, there are a million of these gotchas where you're- you're not g-

Joe Rogan 1:00:10 Can you, uh, describe the difference between the two?

Eric Weinstein 1:00:12 Sure. If I take the tip of my nose, that's gonna be positive curvature because I've got one, uh-

Terrence Howard 1:00:19 Extending out.

Eric Weinstein 1:00:21 One curve going one direction, and the other is going in ... They're curved in the same direction. On the other hand, if you look at, like, the crease of my nose, um, that's gonna be negative curvature because I've got one that's going like this and another that's going like that. Jamie, is it possible to take a look at a monkey saddle?

Joe Rogan 1:00:43 Oh, wow.

Eric Weinstein 1:00:44 So, that would be negatively curved, right? 'Cause you'd have, you'd have things going in opposite directions.

Joe Rogan 1:00:50 That looks like a cool seat.

Terrence Howard 1:00:52 Yeah.

Eric Weinstein 1:00:53 (laughs)

Terrence Howard 1:00:53 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:53 Yeah. That looked a little comfortable.

Eric Weinstein 1:00:55 Okay. So, negative curvature is-

Terrence Howard 1:00:56 I actually have a model of that.

Eric Weinstein 1:00:57 Yeah. So, negative curvature would be what we would be talking about with like, um, hyperbolic space. And spherical curvature would be what we were talking about with the inside of those curve linear triangles on his ... So, he's making ... Again ...... I don't see this as... This isn't where I think it's worth, you know, saying he's wrong. He just doesn't know the language and doesn't know that there's a, a formalization of it. Now, if you take, um... So the other structure that he keeps running across is an octahedral curvilinear, um... I don't know what... It's not really a platonic solid because it's not flat. It's-

Terrence Howard 1:01:36 Well, no. If you go and push ... You have to push on the, um, jewel on the side, Jamie. If you go to the side of the thing, press on that jewel, and then go to the purp- to that blue on that right. That blue, yep. And then you get where-

Eric Weinstein 1:01:52 Okay.

Terrence Howard 1:01:52 ... eight bubbles were.

Eric Weinstein 1:01:53 So now what he's doing is he's saying if I have eight bubbles and these bubbles, all ... Each face of this object-

Terrence Howard 1:02:03 Mm.

Eric Weinstein 1:02:03 ... this octahedral object, um, he's taking a s- a sort of curvilinear triangle on a sphere, and he's imagining that these things are all sort of racing towards each other. Um, and how would you gener- No, no, no. Don't. If you put those two in, he's gonna go into a different world.

Terrence Howard 1:02:28 No, no, no. No, no.

Eric Weinstein 1:02:28 So if we take the-

Terrence Howard 1:02:29 You can just tap on each one of those tetraeds. Just tap it, it'll go away.

Eric Weinstein 1:02:32 Okay.

Terrence Howard 1:02:32 Tap, it'll go away.

Eric Weinstein 1:02:33 Now, how would you generate-

Terrence Howard 1:02:35 Thank you.

Eric Weinstein 1:02:35 So Neil doesn't know where this comes from, right? Now, the way in which, uh, you would do this, I believe, is that you would take a ... Let me think about how you did this. Um, you take the eight-

Terrence Howard 1:02:56 Tetraedros.

Eric Weinstein 1:02:57 ... eight ... No, no, no. You take the eight vertices of a cube, and you'd put a sphere at each one, a small sphere. So imagine that you had a vertex, uh, at one, one, one in three-dimensional space, and then you had another vertex where all of the vertices are gonna have either ones or negative ones, so you have eight possibilities. So you could have negative one, one, one, or one, negative one, negative one, et cetera. You allow the spheres to increase to a size of square root of two radius, and that will close off all of the means of escape, leaving a cavity in the center of your cube. And that cube will have an octahedral cavity that looks like this. That's how I think you generated this sucker.

Terrence Howard 1:03:49 I actually generated this by putting eight of the pieces together. I took eight of those triangular pieces together, and I put them together. They basically became the basis of two tetraeds.

Eric Weinstein 1:04:02 Yeah.

Terrence Howard 1:04:03 You know, which this would be seen as a neutron. And the interesting thing about this piece right here is nature always makes things in, in pairs, and they're always balanced. This doesn't exist. This exists only as a result of a pressure condition, a higher pressure condition. Jamie, if you go to that last blue, pap- tap that last blue on ... Yeah, pas- The, uh, not the last blue. The ... Go around one more time. That one right there. That tetra- that Huntian only exists as a result of the four pr- of the eight pressure conditions created-

Eric Weinstein 1:04:43 But you're-

Terrence Howard 1:04:43 Pr- hold on. You'll, you'll appreciate this. Tap ... Now, tap on that tetr- that Huntian in the middle. No, no, no, not that one. Damn, now you gotta start it again. You can t- (laughs) Yeah, just g- hit that one again, and then tap on the m- onto ... Yeah, tap that. Make that go away. That right there is the pressure condition created from eight tetraeds interacting, and they create that other greater pressure condition. That's the negative space that they generate, but it doesn't... It's a massless area because the moment that the tetraeds disappear, that space goes away and the energy generated disappears, but it's a part of everything in the, in the, in my model.

Eric Weinstein 1:05:27 So you're, you're putting a lot of words ... L- like, first of all, let's just adm- admit that this looks gorgeous.

1:05:34 Pretty cool.

1:05:35 It's incredibly cool.

Terrence Howard 1:05:35 Turn it around, Jamie, so they can see it, please.

Eric Weinstein 1:05:39 So, you know, the problem, Terrence, is that y- you have a desire to go immediately towards what this means, right? And before you get to what it means, people don't even know what it is.

Terrence Howard 1:05:51 True.

Eric Weinstein 1:05:51 Right? So what I'm gonna claim is I've got these eight rambutans here.

1:05:58 What's a rambutan?

1:06:00 It's like a gorilla testicle. You've never had these?

1:06:02 No, what are they?

1:06:03 Uh-

1:06:03 Is it a fruit?

1:06:04 Yeah.

Terrence Howard 1:06:04 Yeah, fruit.

Eric Weinstein 1:06:04 Yeah, it's like, it's like lychees.

Terrence Howard 1:06:05 They're really good.

Eric Weinstein 1:06:06 Oh, lychees. I've had lychees before.

1:06:07 But, but this is a... I think rambut is the Indonesian word for hair.

1:06:11 Where'd you pick those up?

1:06:13 Uh, Branch 99 Market. (laughs)

1:06:16 (laughs)

Terrence Howard 1:06:16 He would've got you some flowers, but the light changed.

Eric Weinstein 1:06:19 (laughs)

1:06:21 If I take eight of these suckers-

1:06:22 Okay.

1:06:23 ... and I arrange them in a cubicle formation, there's gonna be one of Terrence's things-

1:06:30 In the center.

1:06:30 ... in the center.

1:06:31 Right.

1:06:32 Except they're gonna be f- there are gonna be six holes, uh, for the sides of the cube where you can get in. Now, what T- Terrence is saying is imagine if these were special, magical rambutans. I can't even hold this thing. And that-

1:06:46 (laughs)

1:06:46 ... you allow them to grow a little bit bigger so that those holes clo- close off by moving through each other. Imagine that they're made of magical substances. In the center, you're gonna get one of his curvilinear octahedral structures, which is the thing that he just subtracted off.

Terrence Howard 1:07:01 If you go back to the pink-

Eric Weinstein 1:07:02 He calls it the Huntian.

Terrence Howard 1:07:03 W- if you tap on the pink right there-

Eric Weinstein 1:07:05 Yeah.

Terrence Howard 1:07:05 ... you'll be back to that, um ... Oh, the next one next to it. I don't... Wow, that shouldn't have done that.

Eric Weinstein 1:07:11 Okay.

Terrence Howard 1:07:12 What-

Eric Weinstein 1:07:12 So what's, what's going on is that, for example-

Terrence Howard 1:07:14 Thank you.

Eric Weinstein 1:07:14 ... is that-

Terrence Howard 1:07:15 Thank you.

Eric Weinstein 1:07:15 ... Neil can't figure out, well, where did this come from? So what it is is, uh, spheres of radius-... route two at the eight vertices of a cube, uh, passing through each other but closing off an octahedral cavity with positively curved triangles inside.

Terrence Howard 1:07:36 That's what I needed you for.

Eric Weinstein 1:07:38 Well...

Joe Rogan 1:07:40 (laughs)

Terrence Howard 1:07:40 (laughs) That's what I... Just when I needed you most. Thank you. (laughs)

Eric Weinstein 1:07:45 It's pretty glamorous.

Joe Rogan 1:07:47 Uh...

Eric Weinstein 1:07:48 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:07:48 Wh... Can I ask you, Terrence, before we go any further, what was the inspiration for diving into this? Like, what revelation did you have that caused you to start looking at this as a 3D structure and the space inside of it?

Terrence Howard 1:08:00 I... (sighs) Um, they're gonna call me crazy again, but it... When I was 42 and had been kicked out of the world as a result of the allegations, I t... I had another dream, and that same being woke me up and took me back to where I was when I, when I was a child. And I saw the fl... I st- started putting the pieces together, the all shapes, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:08:23 In your dream?

Terrence Howard 1:08:24 ... in, in the dream together, and then I was like, "Oh." So it, it's where four forces meet that makes a difference, so when I put four spheres, four circles... I cut four circles out, and I made the all shape. And then when I started adding them together, then I saw the flower of life. I didn't see-

Eric Weinstein 1:08:41 Sure.

Terrence Howard 1:08:41 ... the flower of life initially. I saw that after when... Well, I'll show you the piece of this

Eric Weinstein 1:08:47 But the all shape is a different thing because-

Terrence Howard 1:08:49 The all shape.

Eric Weinstein 1:08:49 ... in this case, in order to do this, what he did is he said, "I'm gonna make mathematical spheres. They're gonna start to intersect each other." Right? And the intersections, uh, are going to be ignored because it's made out of fictitious math material until they close off the holes in the cubicle lattice structure, leaving octahedral voids with this kind of curvature. To make what he calls the all shape, you do something very different. You'd start off with a tetrahedron, which is distinguished among the five platonic solids as being self-dual. That is, there are four vertices and there are four faces, and you can interchange faces with vertices. And in fact... I don't know if you guys have these things. You, you have this?

Joe Rogan 1:09:34 No. What is it?

Eric Weinstein 1:09:36 So this is an engineering feat. So if you think platonic solids are old, a guy named Chuck Hoberman figured out how to take the self-duality of a tetrahedron and you can change the color of the sphere by throwing it up, and effectively, if you think about the four dots on the surface of one of these, in between them are four triangles. And he fi... figured out a mechanism. We can cut one of these open. There's a gearing mechanism inside that's hidden from the pu... public, where you get a dot come-

Terrence Howard 1:10:13 You should hold that up so they could see it, so the audiences could see it.

Joe Rogan 1:10:17 (laughs) So as you pull this thing apart, it can change colors?

Terrence Howard 1:10:24 You...

Joe Rogan 1:10:24 Yeah. If you spin it, spin it ever so slightly, Joe. (paper rustling) Oh, wow.

Eric Weinstein 1:10:29 Yeah? All right. That's for you guys.

Joe Rogan 1:10:32 That's nice.

Eric Weinstein 1:10:32 It's cool, right?

Terrence Howard 1:10:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:33 That's very bizarre.

Eric Weinstein 1:10:35 All right. Now my point is that one of the things that Terrence has going against him is people are saying, "Oh, you know, he's just playing with stuff people have played with since antiquity. There's nothing new." And then I would say, "Well, then why did Ch- Charles Hoberman create a mechanism realizing self-duality of the tetrahedron?" Nobody even talks about it that way. And by the way, here's something that people, you know, play Dungeons and Dragons, they don't really even have any idea of, is if you take the five platonic solids here and you put the tetrahedron in the middle and you put the triangular structures of the octahedron and the icosahedron off to the sides, there's a duality that interchanges the pairs with the center being self-dual. In other words, the cube has six faces and eight vertices. The octahedron has eight faces and six vertices. The dodecahedron, 12 faces, 20 vertices. The icosahedron, 20 faces, 12 vertices. They all have... All these pairs have the same number of sides because the number of vertices plus the number of faces minus the number of edges has to equal two for anything that is spherical in nature.

Terrence Howard 1:11:52 Now, if all of my things, when they come together, if they create a natural dodecahedron and they create a natural icosahedron, what does that say?

Eric Weinstein 1:12:05 They do and they don't.

Terrence Howard 1:12:06 They do. No, I'm gonna show you.

Eric Weinstein 1:12:07 No.

Terrence Howard 1:12:07 Oh. No, I'm saying you haven't seen yet. I haven't shown you yet. But they, they will when you see it.

Joe Rogan 1:12:12 So, Ter- I-

Eric Weinstein 1:12:13 Why don't you show it to him right now? W- We're on it right now. Show it to him right now.

Terrence Howard 1:12:17 ... say for another hour.

Joe Rogan 1:12:25 Shout out to all the homies right now trying to figure out what the fuck's going on. (laughs)

Terrence Howard 1:12:32 Shout out to all the homies.

Eric Weinstein 1:12:32 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:12:32 (laughs) Like, "What are these guys talking about?"

Eric Weinstein 1:12:34 Holy shit. Legalize Schedule One.

Terrence Howard 1:12:37 So you'll understand, and then I'll have to explain-

Joe Rogan 1:12:42 So we can't... We can't hear you, Terrence. You're not on camera right now, unfortunately.

Terrence Howard 1:12:46 Okay. I'm speaking to myself right now.

Joe Rogan 1:12:47 Right.

Eric Weinstein 1:12:48 (laughs)

Terrence Howard 1:12:48 I'm speaking to myself right now but I'm gonna-

Joe Rogan 1:12:50 The problem is it's the middle of a podcast.

Terrence Howard 1:12:52 ... speak properly

Eric Weinstein 1:12:52 You're gonna love me yet.

Joe Rogan 1:12:53 Yeah.

Eric Weinstein 1:12:54 How's the family?

Joe Rogan 1:12:55 Everything's great, man. How you doing?

Eric Weinstein 1:12:56 Good. Saw your dog. Like to... I've met Marshall for the first time.

Joe Rogan 1:12:58 Oh, that's right. You never met him before. Yeah, he's the best.

Eric Weinstein 1:13:01 He's, he's a lovable guy.

Joe Rogan 1:13:02 Him and, uh, Carl, they were getting after it. Is, is Carl worn out?

Eric Weinstein 1:13:05 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:06 Oh, he's done.

Terrence Howard 1:13:07 Yeah, I wore Carl out.

Joe Rogan 1:13:08 Everybody wore Carl out.

Eric Weinstein 1:13:10 So-

Terrence Howard 1:13:10 So here we are. I'm going to first... I gotta put them-

Joe Rogan 1:13:13 Terrence, no one can hear you.

Eric Weinstein 1:13:15 (laughs)

Terrence Howard 1:13:15 I know you can't.

Joe Rogan 1:13:16 I know, but we, we have a podcast going on right now.

Terrence Howard 1:13:18 Yes, we're about to put the headphones back on.

Joe Rogan 1:13:19 Okay, here we go.

Terrence Howard 1:13:20 I'm gonna be right here next to it.

Joe Rogan 1:13:21 The problem is you were talking off in the distance-

Terrence Howard 1:13:22 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:13:23 ... and, uh, I can't even hear you, and I'm right here.

Terrence Howard 1:13:25 So this is where... If you'll go to where the 12 bubbles meet-

Joe Rogan 1:13:30 Yeah.

Terrence Howard 1:13:30 ... on the thing. So these...... go.

Joe Rogan 1:13:34 Okay.

Eric Weinstein 1:13:34 Can I finish my ... May I finish my riff on those toys before we get to these toys?

Joe Rogan 1:13:38 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure.

Eric Weinstein 1:13:39 My point was that I cry ... I call bullshit on the idea that because Terrence is playing with stuff that people have been playing with since antiquity, that you can't come up ... that there's nothing new under the sun.

Joe Rogan 1:13:51 Right.

Eric Weinstein 1:13:51 Because if there's nothing new under sun, first of all, w- w- how did Charles Hoberman come up with something so cool? Second of all, that means that there's an object that hasn't been invented. I give this to high school kids. You should be able to throw one of these up as a cube and have it come back as an octahedron. You should come up with a gearing mechanism, and you should be able to throw up a dodecahedron and have it come back in your hand as a differently colored icosahedron. And I've never seen those toys.

Joe Rogan 1:14:17 Mm.

Eric Weinstein 1:14:18 Just the way the Rubik's Cube came outta nowhere, uh, or Hungary-

Joe Rogan 1:14:22 (laughs)

Eric Weinstein 1:14:22 ... and, uh, that thing took over the world by storm. So, to claim that a guy can't do engineering on platonic solids and come up with something new, the Rubik's Cube, the Hoberman's switch pitch, uh, these things prove that that's not true.

Joe Rogan 1:14:40 I think it's a foolish thing almost always to pretend there's nothing new under the sun.

Eric Weinstein 1:14:45 Well-

Joe Rogan 1:14:45 You should always consider it.

Terrence Howard 1:14:46 Well, the difference-

Joe Rogan 1:14:47 It might not be correct.

Terrence Howard 1:14:48 Like, they could say-

Joe Rogan 1:14:49 But there's only one way to find out.

Eric Weinstein 1:14:50 Well, there's a difference between ... You see, Terrence has much greater odds of contributing to the world of engineering than he does to the world of mathematics. I mean, the odds that he's doing something new in mathematics, I'll be blunt, are very, very small.

Terrence Howard 1:15:04 Even though I have patents on it that shows that all of this is probably-

Eric Weinstein 1:15:07 I don't wanna go there. The patents do not speak to what you think that they speak to.

Terrence Howard 1:15:11 That's ... Okay.

Eric Weinstein 1:15:13 And look, you, you, you can see into my heart. I'm not trying to-

Terrence Howard 1:15:16 No. No, no, no, no, no, no.

Eric Weinstein 1:15:18 All right.

Terrence Howard 1:15:18 But we were talking. I told, I told you that-

Eric Weinstein 1:15:20 Yeah.

Terrence Howard 1:15:20 ...