Joe Rogan Experience #2194 - Luis Elizondo

Joe Rogan 0:00 (drumming music plays) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music plays) What's up, Luke? How are you?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 0:13 Hey, sir. I'm doing better than I deserve.

Joe Rogan 0:15 (laughs) Wow. That's a good statement.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 0:17 You know, there's an old, uh, old military saying, "Any, any day above ground's a good day."

Joe Rogan 0:21 There you go. Um, so tell everybody what your official job was.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 0:27 Wow. Um, I had a lot of official jobs. Uh-

Joe Rogan 0:29 With the government in regards to, you know...

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 0:34 (laughs) You know.

Joe Rogan 0:34 You know.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 0:34 Up. (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 0:35 Those, you know, those things.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 0:36 Sure.

Joe Rogan 0:37 One of these things. That's, uh, allegedly, uh, that's a replica of, um, the one that Bob LaSar worked on, the sport model.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 0:46 I, uh, I've heard that before.

Joe Rogan 0:47 Yeah, designs_by_perry. Uh, the, the E with ... In Perry is a, a three, and he's a, a dude on Instagram that sent me that.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 0:55 Very cool.

Joe Rogan 0:56 Pretty dope, right?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 0:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:58 We have another one that looks just like it at the Mothership, at the comedy club. When you walk in, you walk right through, like, a, a giant suspended UFO.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:06 Very cool.

Joe Rogan 1:07 So obviously, I have issues. (laughs)

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:08 Well, y- you know what? This is a, a neat town. Um, I, I, I was strolling the streets yesterday and, um, I came across the, uh, the Texas Toy Museum. Now I'm not one for museums usually, but something I saw was ... It auto- automatically transported me back to when I was a kid. I'm, I'm an old guy, so I grew up '70s and early '80s.

Joe Rogan 1:28 How old are you?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:29 52.

Joe Rogan 1:30 I'm 57.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:31 So ... You are?

Joe Rogan 1:31 Yeah.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:32 Man. Well, I look (laughs) 10 years older than you. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:35 (laughs) .

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:35 I got a lotta, lotta long, uh, hard miles on me unfortunately.

Joe Rogan 1:38 I do too-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:38 Mm-hmm. So ...

Joe Rogan 1:39 ... believe it or not.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:40 Well, you'll have to share with me your secret, um, because unfortunately if ... (laughs) I tell people this is as good as it gets. I'm, I'm about as attractive as a cement truck, you know? So ... (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 1:49 (laughs) .

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:49 Um, so, uh, I, I ... After the army, um, I went into the federal service, and had a lotta jobs, uh, mostly in counterintelligence, and which is looking basically what the bad guys know about us from an intelligence perspective. And in 2008, I changed my job, one of my jobs. I was working at the Director of National Intelligence, which for most people, may or may not know, it's, um, kind of outside o' DC, and where I lived, I was on the other side o' DC, living on a little island in the Chesapeake Bay. And so my, my commute was terrible. I mean, it re- really, really frankly sucked.

Joe Rogan 2:22 Did you have to take a ferry every day?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 2:23 No, uh, but it was about a three-hour commute each way-

Joe Rogan 2:26 Oh.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 2:26 ... 'cause you have to go right past-

Joe Rogan 2:27 God.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 2:27 ... Langley. Yeah. It's ... It was brutal.

Joe Rogan 2:28 Why didn't you move closer?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 2:30 W- w- well, I ... You know, I wanted to, I wanted to give my kids a really good quality o' life, and I did not wanna work in the city and then kind of expose 'em to, kind of, the craziness, if that makes sense.

Joe Rogan 2:38 Especially DC. DC's crazy.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 2:41 E- e- especially with kids, right? So ...

Joe Rogan 2:42 Yeah.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 2:42 So anyone in that situation.

Joe Rogan 2:43 Kinda nuts that they don't clean up the capital of the fucking country. (laughs) It seems like-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 2:47 (laughs) . You know, brother, it's, it's ...

Joe Rogan 2:48 Kind of indicative of the rot the whole country is involved in.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 2:50 It, it's, it's such a disgrace because you bring these foreign dignitaries and the first thing they see is, is just the, the, the dereliction-

Joe Rogan 2:57 Yeah.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 2:57 ... of this, of it. And it's a, a very poor reflection on really what the American spirit is about. But, you know, that's, that's for another conversation, I guess.

Joe Rogan 3:04 Yeah. It seems like they could fix that.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 3:07 Y- y- yeah, but (laughs) -

Joe Rogan 3:07 Especially in that place.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 3:09 Y- yeah. One would hope, right? Um ...

Joe Rogan 3:10 Yeah. I mean, Jesus Christ, it's the nation's capital.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 3:12 L- yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, so, uh, I was offered a job to go back to the Pentagon in 2008 for a little while, and basically run the, the integration between national-level intelligence information and local and state and tribal law enforcement. So after 9/11, the country realized that we had a significant problem getting national-level information down to, to the cops on the ground that could actually do something about it. Why? Because you didn't have security clearances, so they couldn't ... They weren't allowed to be provided that information. So one of my jobs (nose snorts) was to try to help fix that. And shortly thereafter, uh, I got there in 2008. Uh, it was probably early 2009 is when I was approached by two individuals who came to me and they said, "Look, um, we'd like to consider you for, for, for a program that we're, we're part of. Um, it's a very nuanced program, very secretive program." Now when you're in the government, you hear that all the time. It's not ... You know, people look at it and they, they ... It's, "Oh, you have a secret clearance or a top secret clearance." Millions of people have, have some sort of security clearance in the government, and a lot, a lot of people have a top secret clearance. So it's really not that uncommon. It's really not that sexy. It just ... They-

Joe Rogan 4:21 So you didn't really know what you were getting involved in?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 4:22 I didn't at all. Not at all. In fact, um ... So, yeah. Great question. So no, I didn't know what I was getting involved in, and after several conversations, it occurred to me that their interest in me was some of my background I had. In my early career as a special agent in counterintelligence, I was protecting technologies, critical technologies, critical avionic technologies. Um, for example, uh, t- uh, and some aerospace technology. So think of first-stage solid rocket motor booster technology, um, Tomahawk cruise missiles, stuff like that. Uh, Apache Longbow. So advanced avionics was something I was kind of already formal- f- kind of familiar with, and at the same time, um, I had the counterintelligence background, so I was asked to come in, uh, and run the counterintelligence and security aspect for a particular program, at which time I had no idea what the program even was. So what does counterintelligence and security mean? It just simply means making sure that our adversaries like Russia and China can't penetrate our, our organization and steal our secrets. That's all that is. It's kind of a fancy word for just saying security, information security and operational security. So, um, I remember I had a, a meeting. They brought me to go see their director, and, uh, it was in a, uh, I ... In ... I would tell you the location, but I was told by the Pentagon not to say the specific location of this office, but it was somewhere in the DC area. Uh, it was a facility that wasn't known publicly to be a, uh, an intelligence ... To be have an intelligence office in there, so I can't say the, the, the specific location. Um,

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 5:53 but I went there and I went up to the f- to the top floor. Uh, I think it was the top floor, almost the top floor.And I met, for the first time, a gentleman named James Lacatski, Dr. James Lacatski, PhD. And this guy was the epitome of a rocket scientist, um, and when I say the epitome, I mean, he was probably, and that there's no exaggeration, the number one rocket scientist in the US government. Now, he's a humble guy, so he'll probably tell you he wasn't, but he, he really was. He's an amazing human being, and very smart, um, and after a very brief conversation, he looked at me and he said, um, "I wanna ask you a question." I said, "Okay, sir." And he said, "What do you think about UFOs?" And I said, uh, well, I answered truthfully. I said, "I, I don't." And he said, "Well, what do you mean? You, you don't believe in them?" And I said, "No. That, that's not what I said. You asked me if I think, you know, what do I think about UFOs, and frankly, I don't think about UFOs. Um, I really don't have the luxury to think about them. I'm too busy, you know, working intelligence operations and whatnot." And, uh, I remember him looking over his glasses and, um, very seriously, staring me straight in the eye and says, "Well, um, don't let your personal bias get the best of you, because what you may learn may surprise you and may challenge any preconceived notion of what you think something is or is not." And so, let me backtrack for a minute. I've never been a UFO guy. You know, people come up, they're like, "Oh, you're that UFO guy." I'm really not. I, I was never really into science fiction as a kid, um, I wasn't into the Star Trek or the Star Wars like, like a lot of people were, um, so that was not my disposition, you know? I, I grew up, I guess playing GI Joe and, and stuff like that, so um, that wasn't, that wasn't my background. And certainly, in college, um, I, I studied, uh, microbiology and immunology with a focus on parasitology. Not parapsychology, the study of parasites, parasitology, so y- the scientific method has always been something that has been near and dear to me, and then of course, later on, as a, as a special agent, um, you know, the, when you're, when you're conducting investigations, for me, I was always very fact-driven, um, kind of the old gumshoe, if you will, just the facts, ma'am, sort of guy. So I was never really prone to any type of, if you will, uh, affinity towards science fiction or even the UFO topic. I just, I just never really considered it.

Joe Rogan 8:21 Hmm. So he says this to you, and then how ... So we're talking about like what? 16 years ago?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 8:29 Uh-

Joe Rogan 8:29 15, 16 years ago?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 8:30 Yeah, do the math, right? So it's uh, 2024, 2000, early 2009.

Joe Rogan 8:35 So this is the beginning of your journey towards this sort of bizarre subject of whatever these things are?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 8:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:45 So you don't have any real previous interest.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 8:48 Not at all.

Joe Rogan 8:48 He says this to you, and, and then what's the steps after that? Like how do you get introduced to this idea that these things are alien crafts?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 8:56 Yeah, so, um, great question. So for some people, uh, there's, there's kind of two ways people process this information, at least in my experience, and there may be others. This has just been my, my observation. Some people have this kind of revelatory moment, this epiphany where it's this ah-ha moment where, oh my gosh, this is real, right?

Joe Rogan 9:15 Mm-hmm.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 9:16 For other people, it's kind of more of a slow, gradual realization, and I think for me, I was probably in the second category, more of a slow, gradual realization that this isn't, you know, a cover for something else. This is really about, about UFOs, about-

Joe Rogan 9:31 So how do you first get introduced to these things?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 9:34 Well, it, so it was a, I didn't get introduced to the things. Uh, it was, first of all, I was introduced to the reporting, right?

Joe Rogan 9:38 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 9:38 So there was these, these official reports that we were getting from the field, there's official videos, and, and whatnot, um, that describe vehicles doing things, maneuvering in ways that, frankly, outperform anything we have in our inventory. Now, keep in mind, my background was at some point in aerospace, so I, I knew all the capabilities of an F-16 or, for example, uh, an F-22 or the F-35, um, and at the end of the day, as advanced as they are, they're, they're still conventional aircraft, you know? They still have the old, um, there's a, there's a, an adage they use for jet engines. Uh, it (laughs) it may, may seem a little, uh, awkward here, but, uh, it's, uh, suck, squeeze, bang, and blow.

Joe Rogan 10:20 (laughs)

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 10:21 Uh, that's what a jet engine does.

Joe Rogan 10:22 Yeah.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 10:22 Forgive me. That's what it does.

Joe Rogan 10:23 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 10:23 (laughs) You know?

Joe Rogan 10:24 Yeah.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 10:24 So (laughs) , uh, it's a convention- conventional type engine. Of course, you have a propeller too that can, can displace air and whatnot. These vehicles were different. These vehicles, for the most part, didn't have any type of associated characteristic that you or I or any normal person would associate with, with the plane, with an airplane, an aircraft, right, that, but, and yet it's flying. So how does an airplane work? Well, let's say this cigar, for example, is, is an airplane, uh, and there's four fundamental forces. And so you have thrust, lift, drag, and weight, and if you understand those, you can create, you could build wings and you create lift and you can fly, and then you have to have an engine for that thrust and whatnot. The things that our, our military pilots were encountering, um, didn't have that. They didn't have wings, they didn't have rudders and ailerons and control surfaces. They didn't have cockpits. They, they didn't have engine, n- no obvious signs of propulsion. They were, they were doing things and maneuvering in ways that frankly defied anything that, that we had in our inventory and we were pretty certain the enemies didn't have either, our adversary didn't have these technologies either. And even more perplexing is that they were being encountered over controlled US airspace and over sensitive military installations, so you know, from, from that perspective, you've got a real, you've got a real national security concern on your hands.

Joe Rogan 11:41 So you said video.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 11:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:44 What was the f- do you remember the first thing that you saw?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 11:46 Um, boy, there's so many, you know, th- I think part of the, the challenge is that most people here in this country, they're familiar with the three videos, right, uh, that have been famously released by the Pentagon.

Joe Rogan 11:58 The Go Fast, the Flir.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 11:59 Go Fast, Gimbal, Flir, correct.

Joe Rogan 12:01 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 12:02 But those are, (laughs) those are the least compelling of all the videos that the government has. Those were unclassified, and so those were the ones, those were kind of the low-hanging fruit that could be released to the general public. There's stuff out there that's like 4K ultra high definition, right? So when you see something like that from a, a certain military platform or a certain military equity or an intelligence collection platform, um, you have to look at that and say, "Well, what...... what is that? What the hell is that? And more importantly, that data's being backed up by radar data, right? So you've got, you've got electro-optical data like gun camera footage or a pod or FLIR, FLIR video, and then you've got radar data that's, that's, that is actually confirming what the video is picking up. And then you've got eyewitnesses that are also watching it, right? So you've got trained, trained observers, pilots that, that can recognize the silhouette between an SU-22 and a MiG-25 from 20 miles away and make a split second decision, "Is it friend or foe? Do I kill it or is it, do I let it live?" And they're reporting it. So you have now, you know, three separate, if you will, collection platforms, the, the human eye being one of them. You've got gun camera footage, and you've got radar footage all describing the same event at the same place, at the same time, under the same circumstances, right? And so keep in mind with my background as a former special agent in counterintelligence, if this was in front of a jury, you know, I- as I've said before, I th- I think we're well beyond reasonable doubt that that, that is something there. I mean, that is real. That's not an atmospheric aberration. It's not a, a, you know, anomaly. That is, that is something there. It's tangible.

Joe Rogan 13:36 So was there an a-ha moment for you? Like the first thing that you saw that you looked at and you go, "What the fuck?"

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 13:44 No, like I said, for me it was more slow and gradual. Um, I didn't-

Joe Rogan 13:47 What was the first thing that you saw that made you realize that there's something going on here-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 13:52 Oh my goodness.

Joe Rogan 13:53 ... that defies conventional wisdom or conventional understanding of propulsion systems?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 13:58 Um, I think for me one of the most compelling moments was when I attended ... boy, let me go back into memory banks. I attended a dinner, uh, with some individuals who were already associated with the, the larger umbrella program called AAWSAP (American UFO Watch and Study Program) . Um, and I attended dinner at a Washington DC hotel and a Brazilian general attended, uh, this, this dinner, and the dinner was, um, sponsored by a gentleman named Robert Bigelow, uh, the famous billionaire hotelier.

Joe Rogan 14:28 Yeah, I've met him.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 14:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:28 I've had him on the podcast.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 14:29 Yeah. And, and by the way, he's, he's an American hero. He's a patriot. Uh, he funded a lot-

Joe Rogan 14:34 Brilliant guy.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 14:34 He is brilliant. And he's ... and people don't realize that he funded, self-funded a lot of this stuff on behalf of the US government for ... by himself. Like he, he paid it to do it himself. Um, he, he really is a, a, you know, an American patriot in my opinion. But anyways, he, um, flew in, this guy named General Uchôa. General Uchôa was a Brazilian general, uh, very, very senior in the Brazilian government, who led an investigation, uh, about a, um, an event that occurred over several days in-

Joe Rogan 15:03 Is this the Varginha incident?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 15:05 No, it's actually called Colares, uh, in Brazil.

Joe Rogan 15:08 Oh, another one.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 15:08 Yeah, and, uh, the Colares incident, and, uh, they had tr- I mean, overwhelming number of eyewitnesses and there was even some, some video and, and photographs that they had produced internally there to Brazil, uh, and, um, it was overwhelming, the evidence. And for me that was... it was more listening to him and explain the concern they had and some of the interactions the, their, the Brazilian government officials had with these UAP that really ... I, I left there that, that dinner scratching my head and really at that point beginning to absorb the profoundness that we're, we're dealing with something that, like is, is real. This is not a cover plan for some other technology we're trying to protect. This-

Joe Rogan 15:51 Did he show you this video evidence?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 15:52 So he was... it was... I was sitting at the... kind of like a table like this. There was a whole lot of people at the table. He was sitting at the head. I was kind of way down over here and he brought out a manila envelope and he was showing photographs to everybody, right? And, and some reporting as well. I think he brought, if I recall correctly, his daughter to translate, um, because I don't think English was his, his, you know, very good. It wasn't his language.Um, but for me that was... and I think for one of my colleagues too, which I probably can't say his name right now because he hasn't come out publicly yet. But, um, we both left that dinner, I think, scratching our heads and saying, "Wow, this is... so this is legit. This is real. The US government is interested in this and there is interest by our government." Um, as... after that dinner, um, attending more meetings and beginning to read the reports, the field reports and, and speaking to the scientists, it became evident to me that this was a very serious issue. We had near misses, uh, over some of our, our, our areas of operation, in some cases literally these, these UAP splitting a, a combat formation. Now if you know how planes fly-

Joe Rogan 16:54 Mm-hmm.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 16:54 ... they fly very close in a combat situation. Um, these things were splitting the formation, right? Um, that, that there were reports being, being provided through the Air Force, mostly through the Navy, uh, about air safety issues where, where pilots literally could, could run into these things, right? They're, they're, they're pervasive. It wasn't like a onesie and twosies.

Joe Rogan 17:16 Was there ever an incident where a pilot or a jet did run into something?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 17:20 S- not that I'm aware of. What I can tell you that there has been incidents where there's... appears to be some sort of provocation where, uh, one of these things seems to be coming deliberately close to an aircraft, not necessarily trying to hit it, but maybe trying to demonstrate performance capabilities. There was (laughs) one video in particular, um, I haven't been cleared by the Pentagon, so let me see if I can speak about it in gen- general terms. Um, there's a pilot flying and a, a, a ... you can hear on the radio this chatter back and forth. Uh, "Do, do you see it? Do you have eyes down on it?" Pilot, "Nope, negative. No eyes down." "Uh, okay, you should have on radar." "Yeah, I got something on radar, but no eyes, no, can't see it." And then all of a sudden, um, a, a, a craft, a, a, a, an object goes whizzing right by the cockpit and I mean probably like 15 feet away. Uh, and, um, (laughs) you could hear the pilot, the expletives of the pilot, you know. I, I won't say it here on air, but you can imagine, right? Uh, what, what a pilot would say when they're very, very surprised. Um, that was one. There's, uh, there, there's ju-

Joe Rogan 18:22 Can you describe what he saw?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 18:24 I think I can. I want to be careful that I don't, because again, I haven't had apr- what I, what I have approval to talk about-... I've, I've spoken about. Um, let me preface this by saying I still have my security clearance, uh, and on occasion, I still will consult for the US government, and so I wanna be very mindful. I, I have no problem going up all the way to the line.

Joe Rogan 18:42 Right, understood.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 18:43 But if I put up, you know, (laughs) a pinky toe over that line, they're-

Joe Rogan 18:46 Right, right, right, of course.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 18:46 ... they're gonna get me. Um, but it was a wedge-shaped craft.

Joe Rogan 18:50 Wedge-shaped?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 18:51 Wedge-shaped. Um, like, triangular, but, um, um ... yeah, like a wedge. Like a ... I, I don't know how else to describe it. I could draw it for you if you want. Um, want me to draw it?

Joe Rogan 19:01 Sure, you can.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 19:01 Yeah. Just give me a second.

Joe Rogan 19:03 So, just, like, a wedge that you would, like, split wood with? Like that kind of a wedge?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 19:07 Um, yeah, but it was, it was silver metallic and, uh ... like a, like a diamond, maybe. That's a better way to describe it. Like a diamond, almost. Um, and it looked kinda like ... it looked, looked kinda like that, really.

Joe Rogan 19:20 Okay.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 19:20 It was just a, just a little-

Joe Rogan 19:22 And that ki- that kinda shape is something that's been reported multiple times.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 19:27 Um, so that was the first time I ever saw something like that.

Joe Rogan 19:30 Mm-hmm.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 19:30 To me, it was ... Keep in mind, I, I never followed this topic, so every time I'm seeing one of these videos, I'm kinda seeing something for the very first time. So, lenticular, whether it's a disc-shaped craft, or it's, it's a wedge-shaped craft, or a diamond-shaped craft, or a triangle-shaped craft, boomerang in some cases, um, these were all new to me, so it was very, very perplexing, and, and obviously, to our military pilots, it was very concerning. And I think when you, when you look at some of the gold standard cases we had, like the Nimitz, for example, that, that, that case, um, you know, you, you have this overwhelming number of sensors looking at the same thing going on that the pilots are reporting. And for, for me, that was most compelling, like I said, more than ... Eye witness testimony is important, but at the end of the day, you know, Grandma seeing some lights in our backyard doesn't really do it for me. You know, I've, I'm, I'm a fact-oriented kinda guy. I've, I've gotta see the data. Let the data provide us the information we need, so then we can make a conclusion, right? I'm not, you know ... If you start seeing UFOs in the sky everywhere, well, chances are, they're probably not, you know? It was a quadcopter, it's a balloon, it's an aircraft. It could be all sorts of things. Um, that's why I think, from our perspective, having the, the fundamental categories, the observables we call them, was so important, because they are so beyond what, what a normal aircraft, a traditional, conventional aircraft can do. At that point, you realize you're, you're dealing with some, some sort of beyond next generation technology, and that's when it gets compelling for, for guys like me, right?

Joe Rogan 21:02 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 21:02 When you're, when you're seeing, when you're seeing performance capabilities that far exceed, far surpass anything we have, and I'm talking even the very, very best technology we have, we don't come close to that.

Joe Rogan 21:14 And no visible means of propulsion?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 21:17 No, or obvious signs of lift, right? And not even a cockpit. I ju- uh, uh, you have to scratch your head and say, "What's going on?" Uh, interestingly, I shared with-

Joe Rogan 21:24 Wait, so no windows?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 21:25 No windows. Well, uh, in some cases, no windows. Other cases, people will report what they think are windows. They say, "Oh, I saw windows." But at the end of the day, you know, we're, we're, we're looking that in terms of what we think a window is, right?

Joe Rogan 21:38 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 21:38 So you see a car, you see windows. "Oh," or a plane, "Those are windows." I didn't see any information to suggest that there were actually windows, even though an eye witness might describe a window, because we are describing in something of, of something that we recognize.

Joe Rogan 21:53 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 21:53 And so we say, "Oh, that might be a window," or-

Joe Rogan 21:55 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 21:55 ... whatnot. But it might not be a window, and so I, I wanna be very careful to, to say there were no windows, and there could've been. But the ones that I was privy to, that I saw, I didn't see any obvious signs of, like, a windshield or a window. I didn't see anything like that. Um, I saw vehicles that were doing things that were, were ... just left you scratching your head. And, and they were real, like I said, because you're, you're, you're backing it up with all this other sensor data. And some of the best, sophisticated sensor data, by the way, at the time, on the planet, that we had, right? Like, the SPY-1 radar and the E-2 Hawkeye and, and some of the other radar capabilities and technical capabilities that other intelligence agencies have that I can't discuss here, you know, that, this, this is the stuff that, that helps us put, forgive the analogy here, but warheads on foreheads. We, when we're going to take a, a strike against a terrorist, these are the same sensor systems we use to, to, to, to prosecute that war, that, that, that act, um, both in combat and, and not in combat. So yeah, that's, um ... That, for me, was, was, was very compelling. And there's lots and lots of videos. People think that there's only three videos. There, there's ... Those are ... Those, those don't even scratch the surface. There are hundreds and hundreds of videos that, that the intelligence c- community and the Department of Defense have on, on these things.

Joe Rogan 23:15 Has there ever been any discussion about releasing any of these?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 23:20 I don't wanna speak on behalf of the government. I, I, w- ... Colleagues of mine, like Chris Mellon, who have been very, very, very active in this topic and have actually been responsible for a lot of what we see now happening in Congress, um, has been championing that. He is the one who says, "Look, we need more videos to come out so the American people can see for themselves what we've been dealing with." When I had Chris Mellon in the Pentagon, he saw those videos, and up to that point, he, p- you know, he had been ... When he was a senior person at the Pentagon, like, very senior, one of his jobs as the senior intelligence official, he asked, "Hey, do we have any UAP, UFO videos, investigations, anything like that?" And they told him no. So, when he came to the Pentagon and saw what we actually did have, you can imagine someone like Chris Mellon, right? He wasn't very happy. Um, he was, he was actually pretty, pretty disappointed, saying, "Why, why was I told no? I can, I can see these videos. Clearly, I see the reports. They're th- th- clearly, this is something that we're interested in as a Department of Defense, and yet when I was one of the senior guys ..." He got the Heisman, right? He was, he was being-

Joe Rogan 24:25 Mm-hmm.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 24:25 ... being told no, and so that's ... That was, I think, um, a point for him that really ... That's probably the sp- ... And I don't wanna speak for my friend Chris, but I, I s- I suspect that was probably the spark that got him to the point where he said, "Okay, we have to do something about this. This is, this is, this is BS."

Joe Rogan 24:40 Yeah, when I was talking to him, it seemed like that was k- his perspective, that this was-... something that really should be in, at least in some way, shape, or form released to the general public. Just to solidify the conversation, just to let people know, like, these are real. This is a real thing, these are not just ... Have you seen the one that, uh, people were filming, uh, just a couple of days ago in Palmdale, California?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 25:03 Yeah, I think they said those were drones, though, if I'm not mistaken.

Joe Rogan 25:05 Oh, yeah?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 25:06 I think the jury came out, if I'm not mistaken, I, I could be wrong, that it was a, uh, it was somebody using drones with some LED lights. Which, by the way-

Joe Rogan 25:13 But you can do wild things with drones now.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 25:14 You absolutely can.

Joe Rogan 25:16 Have you seen the ones where they can create images in the sky?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 25:17 100%.

Joe Rogan 25:18 Dragons and stuff with drones.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 25:19 Yeah, absolutely. So-

Joe Rogan 25:21 Yeah.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 25:21 ... you know, we have to be careful as, as our own technology begins to advance, there's gonna be pranksters out there.

Joe Rogan 25:27 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 25:27 You know? And that's one of the things that, for me, in, in, in, in AATIP, I always went into, uh, an investigation or a case assuming that it was man-made, right?

Joe Rogan 25:35 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 25:35 And, and until I saw the compelling data that said otherwise, we were always, uh, going to assume or presume that this was something that was conventional, it was probably misidentified, but it wasn't, it wasn't exotic.

Joe Rogan 25:47 Yeah.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 25:47 Um, and then once the data suggests otherwise, then you kind of go into the, that, that, that other mode of, "Okay, now what, what are we dealing with?" A- again, especially on the backdrop of the five performance observables.

Joe Rogan 25:59 Mm-hmm.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 26:00 That's when you start to say, "Okay, yeah, this is, this is not a, this is not an F16, you know, this is not a, this is not a Chinese aircraft. This is, this is something different."

Joe Rogan 26:08 Right. What is the oldest video footage or film footage that you have ever seen or heard?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 26:15 Civilian or military? Because-

Joe Rogan 26:17 Doesn't matter, like, what is the oldest where you, it's like, "Okay, what the fuck is this?" What's the oldest stuff that's compelling?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 26:24 Ooh.

Joe Rogan 26:24 'cause we- ... The point is, what I'm trying to get at is that a l- a lot of people, uh, point to the possibility that there's some sort of a secret program, some sort of secret propulsion, gravity-based, whatever it is, that's completely different than conventional propulsion systems that the US government has, and that they're operating these drones. And the problem with that is always the, like, the Kenneth Arnold sightings, the-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 26:49 Sure.

Joe Rogan 26:49 ... the Roswell, the sightings from a time where that technology just wasn't available at all.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 26:55 Joe, I'm so glad you asked me that question. It just so happens I brought you something.

Joe Rogan 26:58 Oh.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 26:59 Uh, I brought you-

Joe Rogan 27:00 When the glasses come out, you know it's getting serious.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 27:02 (laughs) No, it just means I-

Joe Rogan 27:03 What'd you bring?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 27:03 It means I'm old. Um ...

Joe Rogan 27:04 Me too.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 27:05 Yeah. Um, I'm gonna provide you a document here, um, it's a, it's a short document. But, uh, the portions, I think, are highlighted that you're gonna want to pay attention to. And, uh, let's see here. Okay. So if, uh, this is just for you and if your audience is interested, um, it's this paragraph here you're gonna want to read.

Joe Rogan 27:25 Okay.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 27:25 And then it's the last one that's highlighted, and then take a look at the date and the subject line.

Joe Rogan 27:29 This is it right here? Jamie brought it up here.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 27:31 Oh, great. Yeah, so-

Joe Rogan 27:32 Okay. Wait, what do I, which one do I want to read here?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 27:32 Paragraph six right now, so if you want to scroll down to paragraph six.

Joe Rogan 27:36 Okay.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 27:36 There you go.

Joe Rogan 27:37 Uh, "this summary of observations of aerial phenomenon has been prepared for the purpose of re-emphasizing and reiterating the fact that the phenomena have continuously occurred in the New Mexico skies during the past 18 months and are continuing to occur, and secondly, that these phenomena are occurring in the vicinity of sensitive military and government installations."

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 27:59 And if you want to go back to, like, paragraph two, there you go.

Joe Rogan 28:03 The, the highlighted part?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 28:04 Yeah, "the observers of."

Joe Rogan 28:05 "The observers of those phenomenon include scientists, special agents of the Office of Special Investigations, the US Air Force, airline pilots, military pilots, Los Alamos security inspectors, military personnel, and many other persons of various occupations whose reliability is not questioned."

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 28:23 And now scroll to the top, at the very top of that document. And that, where does it-

Joe Rogan 28:27 It says that it-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 28:28 A little higher.

Joe Rogan 28:28 ... was determined ... Oh, above that?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 28:30 There you go. Yep.

Joe Rogan 28:30 "The summary of observations of aerial phenomenon in the New Mexico area, December 1948 to May 1950."

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 28:37 And the date of that document, if you scroll a little bit higher, you are going to see the date of that memo. 19-

Joe Rogan 28:44 Oh, 1950.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 28:45 Yes, sir.

Joe Rogan 28:45 May 25th, 1950.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 28:47 Right.

Joe Rogan 28:47 It says that the ... It was determined that the frequency of unexplained aerial phenomena in the New Mexico area was such that an organized plan of reporting these observations should be undertaken.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 29:00 Right. So-

Joe Rogan 29:01 So this is the beginning of Project Blue Book?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 29:03 So, this is the, the recognition that we have a serious problem over our sensitive military installations. This is nothing new. This is not 1970s reversed engineered technology or some sort of-

Joe Rogan 29:16 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 29:16 ... special technology.

Joe Rogan 29:17 1950, they're talking about this, so-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 29:18 We had just broken the sound barrier and we had not yet entered into space, and we have these things that are performing in ways that, frankly, we can't replicate. I've, I brought a few more of these later on to emphasize that point you just brought up at some point, if you're interested.

Joe Rogan 29:34 Yeah.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 29:35 Um, but it highlights that these are official government documents, uh, through, a- official government personnel, uh, raising the alarm bells, just like we did in, in, in AAWSAP and AATIPS. And so this is nothing new. Now, let's ... If you want to look at this from an adversarial perspective, let's ... We ... Our governor's already said, "That's not ours." Right?

Joe Rogan 29:54 Mm-hmm.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 29:54 If you look at a 1950 Sabre jet, for example, um, it wasn't even supersonic, and yet these things that we are observing in some cases are doing ... I brought some more documents here ... multiples of, of mach, um, at, at, at, uh, and doing velocities and doing things that we frankly could not do back then, and frankly we still can't do in some cases. But temporally speaking, the only two countries in the world may, may have a chance of doing something like that would be Russia and China. And now in 1950, where was China? It was in the middle of a famine, uh, at the time. And where was Russia? Russia was, uh, trying to develop the atomic bomb and still was using horse-drawn carts, uh, for a lot of their military operations. So temporally speaking, it doesn't make sense. This is, this is the analogy I've used before, Joe, that it would be like, uh, sort of th- the Carter going into King Tut's tomb for the very first time in the 1920s, discovering King Tut's tomb, and when he goes in he finds a fully assembled 747 jet.... it, it doesn't make sense. T- temporally speaking-

Joe Rogan 30:56 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 30:57 ... they, they did not have that technology. So, is it possible, and I'll be very careful what I say, that the US government has some sort of exotic technology? Well, my answer is, I sure hope so, because, uh, you know, we wanna have an advantage over our adversaries. But in 1950, that wasn't the case.

Joe Rogan 31:15 Right. And do they have any film of these crafts from New Mexico?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 31:20 There is film of many craft, and not just New Mexico, per se, but over many military installations. Here, I got another one for you. I'll, I'll provide you. Um, you don't want to have to waste your time reading it, but the, uh, I think you'll appreciate this. Um, take a look at the date of this and who it's to and who it's from, and I think you'll find the subject line very interesting.

Joe Rogan 31:42 Okay, which one, um ... What part of my reading here?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 31:44 Just a highlighted portion, so you can see the top of the document, who it's from, who it's to, and the date, and what the subject line is.

Joe Rogan 31:50 Uh, Director of Special Investiga- ... What does it say? It's, it's hard 'cause it's all scratchy, you know?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 31:56 Yeah. It's an, it's an old reproduction of a official government docu- ... Bottom line, it's a, it's a document, uh-

Joe Rogan 32:02 Is that a-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 32:02 ... from J. Edgar Hoover-

Joe Rogan 32:03 Oh. Oh, I see.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 32:04 ... from the director of the FBI.

Joe Rogan 32:05 Okay. It's Director General, Department of the Air Force, the Pentagon. Yeah, J. Edgar Hoover, Director of Federal Bureau of Investigations. So this-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 32:13 And the subject ... Read the subject line of that memo.

Joe Rogan 32:18 Flying ... It's ... God, it's ... God. It's hard to read 'cause it's all screwy.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 32:23 Flying disks, it should say. Flying disks over the savanna. It's a, uh, there's a, uh, sensitive facility that we had where we were doing, uh, atomic, uh, development. And-

Joe Rogan 32:33 Yeah. Flying disks reportedly seen in the vicinity of the something River Plant?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 32:39 Savanna River Plant. Yes, sir.

Joe Rogan 32:40 Okay.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 32:41 That's correct. And so, that's just-

Joe Rogan 32:42 Atomic Energy-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 32:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:44 ... Commission.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 32:44 And the date of that being, you know, 1952, right?

Joe Rogan 32:47 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 32:47 So, so-

Joe Rogan 32:48 So this is an offi- ... This is verified? This is-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 32:52 That was released by the government. That is a off- ... Those are all official. All these are official US government documentation that anybody can pull up any time they want.

Joe Rogan 33:00 Did they let you see any of these ancient films? These films from the 1950s of these things?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 33:05 So, g- great question. Our focus was really more modern time. It was more like taking-

Joe Rogan 33:09 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 33:09 ... a picture of where we are now. I mean-

Joe Rogan 33:11 But wouldn't you want to just ... Like, if you, if you really think this thing is from somewhere else-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 33:15 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:16 ... the best example of it definitely not being ours is something from the 1950s, right?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 33:20 Sure. And anecdotally, that, that's, that's great, but keep in mind, on the backdrop of national security, when you go to a general and you say-

Joe Rogan 33:27 They should clean this up, by the way.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 33:28 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:29 This ... It's crazy. There's a ... It's like half the things-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 33:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:31 ... are blotted out and scratchy.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 33:33 Um, yeah that's, uh-

Joe Rogan 33:34 But-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 33:34 ... Uncle Sam for ya. Um, you know, it ... When you're going to a general or, you know-

Joe Rogan 33:38 It makes me suspicious.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 33:39 Uh, no. It's ... You can find this-

Joe Rogan 33:40 I know, I know, I know, but I mean, it's just like-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 33:42 Oh. Yeah. The government released that. I mean, they, they, they admit that. No, that's theirs.

Joe Rogan 33:44 Look at that fucking shitty old 1920 fax machine. Look at that. It's terrible.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 33:47 Well, they were ... Remember, they were using typewriters-

Joe Rogan 33:49 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 33:49 ... back then, too, right?

Joe Rogan 33:49 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 33:49 And there are ink smears and-

Joe Rogan 33:51 Blanchy.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 33:51 Yeah, blanchy. Uh, and I'm sure the original is probably much, much cleaner. Uh, but that's what the government put out online-

Joe Rogan 33:57 Uh-huh.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 33:57 ... for people to review. Uh, so when you're ... Going back to, to your que- ... Answer your question, when you are going to a general or you're going to a military leader about this topic, if you go back to anecdotal stuff like, "Oh, this is something from 1950s," they're not interested. They're like, "Look, what is going on now?"

Joe Rogan 34:13 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 34:14 "What did ..."

Joe Rogan 34:14 Of course.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 34:14 "What is the threat now? I've got a carrier strike group out in the water. I'm getting reports these things are, are, are coming in and interrogating the ship. You know, what ... I wanna see that. I wanna see the videos. I wanna see the reporting. I wanna see the w- ... The, the, the deck logs and what the commander says, and I wanna know the pilots. I wanna talk to the pilots, the radar operators."

Joe Rogan 34:31 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 34:31 That's their focus. They're not interested. And that ... By the way, we've tried a few times, and the further back in time we go, the less interested they were. So it was really this current-

Joe Rogan 34:40 Interesting.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 34:40 Yeah. It was really the current information. "What's going on now? I'm not interested in what happened yesterday."

Joe Rogan 34:44 They're just taking a pragmatic approach.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 34:46 Yeah. Yeah, and it's ... You know, it's understandable. From a military perspective, a national security perspective, the other stuff is interesting, and from the general public's perspective, you know, they're, they're interested. But from a national security perspective they're like, "Hey, man, that was three decades ago," you know?

Joe Rogan 35:00 Right. Makes sense.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 35:00 "I need, I need now."

Joe Rogan 35:01 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 35:02 So, it's ... It is understandable. Little frustrating, 'cause you wanna, you wanna demonstrate, "Look, boss. This is, this is nothing new." Right?

Joe Rogan 35:07 Mm-hmm.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 35:08 "This is, this is a repeated pattern that we're seeing here." Um, but they're more interested in the here and now.

Joe Rogan 35:13 So do they have repeated footage? 'Cause y- you're saying three decades, but obviously we're talking about 1950. Did they have stuff from the 1980s, stuff from the 1990s?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 35:21 There was reporting. Yeah. And again, I got to be careful because so- some of that stuff I haven't been cleared to talk about, but there a- ... There are reports, uh, we call f- foreign intelligence, FI, foreign intelligence reports. I can't say where or who or anything like that. But on classified systems where we know without a shadow of a doubt UAPs were encountered in other countries, adversarial countries. Why? Because we spy on them and we know.

Joe Rogan 35:45 Mm.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 35:46 Um, again, I can't say how we know and, and whatnot-

Joe Rogan 35:48 I understand.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 35:49 ... because I could get in trouble, but j- just-

Joe Rogan 35:51 So we know this is not a, a United States phenomena?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 35:54 Precisely. It is not a US-only phenomenon. And in fact, in other countries, whether it's in Latin America, South America, or in Europe or Russia, China, there is an extreme interest in this topic. In fact, the Chinese ... It was in the newspaper. I think it was the China Morning Sun. They have something called the Five Continents Initiative, where allegedly they were trying to broker a deal with the United Nations that would allow China to run all the UFO investigations for the United Nations. Right? So, we also know that Russia, they've come out and said, "Yeah, we're interested in this topic." There were some released old KGB footage that showed MiG interactions with these UAP. And there's also ... In Latin America you have the same thing. If you go to Latin America now, they don't have the same level of stigma and taboo associated with this topic like we do. And so they talk freely about it. They, they have no problem talking. In fact, when I was in, uh, in the Patagonia area of Argentina, uh, there is a ... Near a town called Bariloche and, and Las Lajas.One of the chief of police was telling me, they have... there's an area there called La Miranda. La Miranda means to see, to view. And they call it that, the town, and... because UAP are so frequent there that local law enforcement actually built an observatory, an observation post, to look at these things because they were so frequent. So, this is not a new phenomenon. This is something that's been around for quite a long time. The problem is, in my opinion, and I could be wrong but this is my assessment, the reason why it's so difficult to have the conversation here is because our government had placed so much emphasis and interest trying to stigmatize this topic that it almost worked too well. Now we're at the point where we should be having this conversation and people still don't want to because they think it's crazy. They think of tinfoil hats and-

Joe Rogan 37:39 Yeah.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 37:39 ... Elvis on the mothership, when in reality, we're talking about a real national security issue. I mean, the- these things are here. You, you have, Joe, you have a former Director of National Intelligence, Ratcliffe, a former director of CIA, Brennan. You have former presidents all coming out and saying, "Yeah. There's something to it. It's real." Right? Now, what it is, where it's from, and all that stuff, I'm not sure we're quite ready to go there yet. But the acknowledgement is, "Hey, man. Yeah. This is real, it's not ours, and we probably should do something about it."

Joe Rogan 38:09 So, if we go back to the history of the debunking of it, you know, like the Project Blue Book stuff, J. Allen Hynek, after he had left Project Blue Book, he became a proponent of UFO disclosure. During Project Blue Book, he, i- it was his job to ba- essentially dismiss everything-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 38:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:28 ... and to come up with some sort of a reason, swamp gas, mass hallucinations-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 38:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:33 ... whatever it was, to attribute all these sightings to something that was very easy to explain. Did they ever ex- is there any documentation or any discussion of why they did that, why they chose to debunk everything?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 38:48 Yeah. My, my understanding is if... you have to look at where America was at the time they were doing these investigations. It was at the height of the Cold War, right? And, you know, despite what some people think, it... the Cold War wasn't very cold at all. It was pretty hot and we had Russia and the United States engaging in these proxy wars. Neither side wanted to let the other side know what we had and what we didn't know, right? So, if you have these UAP coming in and out, the last thing you wanna do is tell the other side broadcast, "This is what we've learned from it, and more importantly, this is what we don't know about it." Right?

Joe Rogan 39:21 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 39:21 And so both sides were keeping this very quiet, but there was an interesting agreement at the classified level, uh, I believe in the late '60s, where there was this relationship with the United States. We were putting up our Northern Tier radar system to detect r- uh, then Soviet Union ICBMs, and they were doing the same thing, right? 'Cause none of us really trusted each other, but we trusted each other enough to say, "Look, before you hit that button, if you see something coming over the horizon, before you hit that button and launch, give us a call because it might be a UFO, right? And we don't wanna start World War III because either side mistakes a UFO for an ICBM."

Joe Rogan 39:58 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 39:58 And that's how serious they took the topic. I mean, that's real. That's, that's a real memo that, that, that existed between the United States and Russia. So that's, that is an indicator how much both sides took this topic seriously.

Joe Rogan 40:10 Mm. Jesus. And so, when Philip Corso was dismissing all these different things, did they have anything, any film footage, any s- any stuff from that time from Project Blue Book that was, like, definitively not ours?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 40:29 I'm not privy to... well, I am, I'm aware of the fact that people say it does exist and people have been briefed on it. I wasn't privy to that. I was, again, more focused on the here and now.

Joe Rogan 40:38 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 40:39 I was aware of people who had attended certain meetings, very senior level meetings, where that was discussed, where they saw certain footage. But that's... I'm hearing that secondhand. I, I did not see the old footage. My, my focus was, uh, more s- on the, on the current, what's going on now. But back to your point, why was this effort to try to create so much stigma and taboo? I think it was because of that. I think because you had Russia and the US at this weird stalemate where neither one wanted to tell the other side what we know and what we didn't know about UAP. And, and that really the... I think the focus from a national security perspective, let's say you're a general and I'm a general, "Look. We've got a real cold war going on here right now. As long as these things aren't coming in and zapping my people, that's gonna be my focus right now. That's, that's a real potential threat that I have to deal with now. I've got Russia pointing nukes at me and I'm n- pointing nukes at them. At any time, we could launch. Let's focus on that-

Joe Rogan 41:32 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 41:32 ... more so than the other stuff." And that was... that is, that has been my observation on why they didn't want to address the, the, the, the problem, the challenge openly with the general public back... and they also were worried. There was a, there was, uh, several studies that suggested that most people would be very uncomfortable with that idea that there's something else in the cosmos, potentially, or even right here on Earth, and that it would create some sort of societal disruption, right? They didn't wanna cause panic. They were afraid that people would, kind of, like, think of a run on Wall Street, right?

Joe Rogan 42:04 Mm-hmm.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 42:04 When people get panicked, they do, kind of, s- strange things sometimes. And I think the government was very worried about that.

Joe Rogan 42:10 What's the most compelling modern thing that you've seen?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 42:13 Oh, my God. I can't talk about it, unfortunately. That's what's... that's... this is my frustration, Joe-

Joe Rogan 42:17 Mm-hmm.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 42:17 ... because I know what I've seen. I know what my colleagues have seen, right? And to this day, there's, there's video that's coming in on a regular and routine basis that is very, very compelling. And, uh, if, if they're happy-

Joe Rogan 42:28 How do they hide this stuff from the general public?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 42:30 Well, we have classified systems. We hide a lot of things.

Joe Rogan 42:32 Right. But how does it... how is it getting filmed? Is any of it getting filmed by the general public, or is all this military stuff?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 42:38 So, let me backtrack a little bit. This. There is... there are, there is a general public that is filming stuff, but from a Department of Defense perspective, our focus... now, AARO is a different story, but when I was in the government, we had to be very, very careful of something that we called intelligence oversight. Back in the '60s and '70s, the US intelligence apparatus, particularly in the Department of Defense-... was kind of naughty. They were doing things they shouldn't do. They were spying on students and they were spying on American citizens and they were doing-

Joe Rogan 43:06 You don't say.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 43:07 Yeah. Yeah, right?

Joe Rogan 43:07 Crazy.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 43:08 Say it isn't so. Um, so Congress passed some laws and said, "Okay, you, you can no longer do this kind of stuff on, on, on, on American citizens," right? "You can't conduct intelligence operations on American citizens." You can't do it, it's illegal, right?

Joe Rogan 43:22 Okay.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 43:22 So you have Executive Order 12333 and all these other rules and laws and DoD 5240.1 that all come out and say, "No más." Um, so Department of Defense is supposed to focus on military. That's it. You don't, you don't bring in US persons information and adjust them into a Department of Defense database, especially a Department of Defense intelligence database. That's a super no-no. That's called US persons information and it's pretty much verboten. So, uh, our focus was looking specifically at military sourced information. I was not focusing at all on what the private citizens were seeing because at the end of the day, we couldn't use it. You can't, you can't do anything with the data.

Joe Rogan 44:01 And it seems like you got plenty of compelling footage from the military.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 44:04 Overwhelming. Overwhelming. Uh, it, it... There's absolutely no doubt that, uh, we didn't have to look at civilian data because we had better collection sensor systems from the military that was looking at stuff and giving us better insight.

Joe Rogan 44:15 If you, you can't tell us about... Can you give us some sort of an understanding of, like, what you're talking about?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 44:21 Yeah, sure. Um...

Joe Rogan 44:24 Without being specific.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 44:25 Yeah. Let me see. Um... Okay, yeah. Um, there is a, uh, a video, high resolution video of... Uh, I can't say what platform it was taken from, I can't say where it was taken from.

Joe Rogan 44:37 Okay.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 44:38 But, um, an object that... You know, do you know how large a, um, an offshore, shore oil derrick is? They're huge, right?

Joe Rogan 44:45 Yeah.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 44:45 They're like a, almost like a small city, right? They're like one city s- block. They're huge. They're enormous things. Um, there is video that shows one of these objects underwater that goes by... Uh, the speed was calculated between 450 and 550 knots underwater, and it was bigger than the offshore derrick that it was passing. 'Cause you could see in the video the offshore derrick and you could see this thing zip right by it.

Joe Rogan 45:15 Jesus.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 45:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:17 So that's a lot of them, right? A lot of them are reported as being transmedium.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 45:22 Right. So that... E- exactly. Why, why do we use the term UAP, right? Now it's unidentified anomalous phenomenon because it's all domain. Initially it was UFO, unidentified flying object, and for several reasons they changed the name. One of them, not just because of stigma like people think, but because the word flying object means flight.

Joe Rogan 45:41 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 45:41 And you have to have wings to fly. That's flight. And these things don't have wings. So that term we're not even sure is even accurate anymore because they're not necessarily flying. We see them underwater, we see them super high altitude, uh, so the term was changed to unidentified aerial phenomenon, but again that did not encompass all the observations we were seeing. So now the term UAP, I think the latest description of it is unidentified anomalous phenomenon to help describe this multi-domain or transmedium characteristic that we are beginning to see and record that these things can do. And that, that is... I'm gonna... If I can digress for a second, because that's super important, Joe.

Joe Rogan 46:22 Mm-hmm.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 46:23 We have transmedium vehicles, right? We have things like seaplanes and it's a plane and it can float on water, but let's face it, a seaplane is neither a really good plane or a really good boat because it's a compromise. It's a design compromise between an object that you want to perform in the air and in the sea. And that's why it's neither really good at both. Um, same thing with, for example, the space shuttle. It goes out into space and it can glide down, but it's not a very good airplane, comes down like a brick, you know?

Joe Rogan 46:50 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 46:51 Because there's design compromises and performance compromises. But what we are seeing doesn't have any of that attributable compromise. It's not... These objects aren't slowing down. They're not changing their, their, their, their performance capabilities. They can do the same thing that we're seeing in the air and, and, and possibly in space and, and even underwater. So that is a, that is a fundamentally different type of technology than we are used to dealing with.

Joe Rogan 47:19 Is the assumption that they are doing something with spacetime and gravity around them-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 47:26 That's correct.

Joe Rogan 47:26 ... rather than using something like a jet propulsion engine that-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 47:30 Correct.

Joe Rogan 47:31 ... blasts fire out the back and it makes it go fast forward?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 47:34 Right.

Joe Rogan 47:34 That they're doing something that alters the gravity around them.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 47:39 Yeah. So-

Joe Rogan 47:39 And that's why they can go through everything.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 47:41 Yeah. So we had some of the best scientists on the team. Uh, folks like Dr. Hal Puthoff and some other folks that I'm not allowed to say their names.

Joe Rogan 47:48 Mm-hmm.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 47:49 Uh, Dr. Eric Davis and some others, that were doing the calculations, um, mathematical calculations on h- on how this is possible, and the consensus was by, by the scientists... Not me, because I'm not a, I'm not a physics expert, I'm not a astrophysicist. Um, they were saying that... So let me back up here. Initially, the government for years was trying to identify the different exotic technologies that could explain the different performance characteristics, and it was during the AATIP years that the scientists had this consensus that if you had one type of technology, if you could do one thing, all these other observables now become possible. Kind of think of like a unifying theory.

Joe Rogan 48:32 Mm-hmm.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 48:32 And so if you had the ability to, to create this bubble around you in a localized area that insulated you from the effects of Earth's gravity... Now, what is gravity? People think that, you know, when I drop my glasses, that's gravity. That's not gravity. That's an effect of gravity. Gravity is the warping of space...... time. And that's important because people don't, they, you hear the term thrown around a lot, but they don't realize that space and time are actually connected. They are, they are, they are one and the same. They are opposite sides, if you will, of the same coin, and so you can't have one without the other. And so you have this ability to create a bubble around you that insulates you from the warping of space time, let's say in this case Earth's gravity or something like that. Then the way you experience time inside that bubble is perhaps fundamentally different than the way you might experience space time outside that bubble, because you're not, you're not subject to the effects of gravity, which would explain por- potentially, potentially why things don't need wings and why they don't need propulsion systems like that, right? So it's, it's a completely different way of looking at, at how we understand physics and how we as humans move about. Everything we do is fundamentally force equals mass times acceleration, right? F=MA, right? Mass times acceleration, you get force. Um, this may be something a little bit different. This is, this is not using a c- again, conventional thrust. Or if I, you know, Newtonian, right? If I, if I push this way, I have an equal and opposite reaction that way, right? That's how, that's-

Joe Rogan 50:09 Are there any theories as to how it's accomplishing this?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 50:11 There is. Uh, actually, Dr. Hal Puthoff about f- three years ago gave a speech on this, uh, a very, uh, interesting talk, lecture about this technology and if you ever have the chance, you really should have him on 'cause he's a, he's a, he's incredible human being. He's also the one who helped start the government's remote viewing program and a bunch of other stuff for the government. Um, he's been involved in a lot of our nation's probably most, most classified efforts. But he was working with us on, on A2P as one of our scientists, and he gave a lecture about three years ago to some other scientists about the specifics on how this is possible. I am not a scientist so I definitely not gonna speak on behalf of Hal Puthoff 'cause I'm sure I will muck it up, but I do recall a time when he came into our skiff and gave us about a three-hour (laughs) lecture on this unifying theory. And at that moment, it was very much for us the epiphany that a lot of us had been, been searching for. He's like, "Look, at the end of the day, this is how it's possible." And that was kind of this, wow. So it's really not-

Joe Rogan 51:11 Can you give us a-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 51:12 ... magic.

Joe Rogan 51:12 ... moron's view of how it's possible?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 51:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:14 Like explain it to someone like me?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 51:15 Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm in that category, Joe, so (laughs) -

Joe Rogan 51:19 (laughs) Good.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 51:19 We speak in the same language. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:20 (laughs) Yeah. Sure.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 51:21 Yeah. Single syllable grunts, right?

Joe Rogan 51:22 (laughs)

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 51:23 Um, yeah. So you have, uh, you have an object like this cup on your table, and you want it to, um, be insulated from the effects of Earth's gravity. So you, you, you create this bubble artificially using a, uh, a, a, a certain energetic source at a certain frequency, and it interacts with certain material, certain metamaterial. And I have t- again, I gotta be careful w- exactly what I say, but a certain skin of the craft, this aluminum v- uh, cup here, and all of a sudden, voop, you have this bubble around you where what you see on the outside is not necessarily what you see on the inside. In fact, may, may do-

Joe Rogan 52:01 Sure.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 52:01 ... one more drawing for you?

Joe Rogan 52:02 Yeah. Yeah.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 52:02 Okay. Forgive me. I'm, I'm not an artist, so I'm gonna do this upside down for you, and then I'm gonna kinda scoot this just a little here. All right. Um, let's do this. So, unfortunately, I know your audience can't see this, but actually, it's probably good.

Joe Rogan 52:17 That's okay. Some people can. It, it, there's a video form of it.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 52:21 Well, prob-

Joe Rogan 52:21 And I'm sure this will get on, it'll be on YouTube as well.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 52:24 It's probably good that they don't 'cause I'm not a, an artist.

Joe Rogan 52:26 Okay.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 52:26 But let's say this is a, um, two-dimensional representation of a three-dimensional space.

Joe Rogan 52:33 Okay.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 52:34 And in essence-

Joe Rogan 52:39 So what you've done is essentially you've, you've created a, a three-dimensional looking grid stacked to look like stacked boxes on top of each other.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 52:47 Yeah, right. And so you have this, you have location A and location B.

Joe Rogan 52:51 Mm-hmm.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 52:52 And let's say I go from Los Angeles to Baltimore.

Joe Rogan 52:54 Okay.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 52:55 And it takes me five hours to fly at 500 miles an hour. That's a function of distance over time. And in essence, you can mark that linearly like this. So I fly, ch, takes me five hours. There I am.

Joe Rogan 53:07 Okay.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 53:08 If you had the ability to compress space time, and not a lot, just a little bit, and you were able to allow these points to be a little closer together, now in essence what took you let's say five hours and 500 miles an hour to do it, um, you can do it in one hour, and you can do it, uh, in much less time. But to the observer outside, because we're still in the same universe, we would see something like that.

Joe Rogan 53:37 Mm-hmm.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 53:37 We would see this incredible hopscotching ability, uh, to, to, if you will, um, take a shortcut through space time. And so what would appear to be instantaneous acceleration, hypersonic velocity and other things, um, now becomes reality. And so that is, that is fundamentally, um, what, what these scientists had discovered. And so it seems like science fiction, but when you understand the mathematics and some of the theorem that they propose, a lot of these other observables become possible.

Joe Rogan 54:09 So these are essentially just, uh, theoretical explanations of how these things are moving.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 54:16 Yeah. And I'm, again, I'm not, I'm not-

Joe Rogan 54:19 Right. I understand.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 54:19 ... I'm not a scientist. I wanna be very careful. I, you know, I don't wanna misrepresent anything. There's a whole lot of other stuff that if you can do that, all of a sudden now makes sense and may describe s- the observations that people are, are, are seeing and why they're kinda hard to see, and they-

Joe Rogan 54:36 Mm-hmm.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 54:36 ... seem obscure.

Joe Rogan 54:37 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 54:37 Um, and so I think from, from a, from a governmental perspective, that it was kind of a revelatory moment, uh, for, for, for the folks in our, in our program.

Joe Rogan 54:47 So they realized that one of the reasons why these things are weird-looking is because they're literally, they're creating... You want light?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 54:54 Do you mind? I'm sorry. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:56 No, yeah. Take this.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 54:57 Thank you.

Joe Rogan 54:59 So-... the back thing, uh, the other side.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 55:03 Oh.

Joe Rogan 55:03 Push that down, there you go, bam. Um ... (smacks lips)

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 55:09 Thank you very much.

Joe Rogan 55:10 No problem. So, how, uh, how much of this is theoretical and how much of this, uh, is observed from recovered vehicles?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 55:18 I am not allowed to talk about what the government may or may not have in its possession other than that, um, I have, I, I... So I went through a very lengthy Pentagon review process. Recently, I, I, I wrote some- I won't talk about it here, but, but I wrote something and, um, I had to go through Pentagon to have a review process, and it took almost a year. Um, in this, this thing I wrote, um, I, I, I talk about up to the leg- up to the part I can talk about-

Joe Rogan 55:43 Mm-hmm.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 55:43 ... and they approved for me to talk about up to that point. When it comes to what the government may or may not have in its possession, all I can simply say is that, um, there is very compelling evidence to suggest that the US government is in absolute possession of exotic material that is not made by humans. Now beyond that, I can't really expound upon. I haven't been given permission to talk about it, but what I can say is what I've already said for the record, which has been approved by the Pentagon, won't get in trouble by saying it-

Joe Rogan 56:14 Mm-hmm.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 56:15 ... is that, that, that we are, uh, there's very compelling data to suggest that we are in possession of exotic material.

Joe Rogan 56:22 Why is the Pentagon teasing us? Why do they tell y- why are they allowing you to say, "We are in possession of something that was not made by human beings," but not allowed to elaborate, not allowed to show these very compelling videos that you're talking about that you've seen?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 56:39 I don't th- well, two reasons. I don't think they have a choice. I think with now the introduction of cell phones and ring cameras, the cat's outta the bag. It's, it's the worst kept secret at this point. Two, there is a faction, unlike before in the Cold War, I believe there is a faction of people inside the government that do want this conversation to occur. But equally, there's still a faction of people that are very mad with me, they do not want me having this conversation, and mark my words, just by me being on your show, it is gonna cause an absolute storm inside the Pentagon, and I am sure, uh, the other shoe's gonna drop. I promise-

Joe Rogan 57:16 So-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 57:17 ... you it's gonna, you're gonna hear all sorts of stuff. People make stuff up about me trying to discredit this topic because as many people are in the government that want this topic to be discussed now, there's still some people that do not want this conversation.

Joe Rogan 57:29 Could you steel-man their position?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 57:32 S- say again?

Joe Rogan 57:32 Steel-man their position, meaning could you-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 57:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:35 ... argue it from their perspective?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 57:36 Absolutely. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:36 Like why- what would be a good reason-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 57:38 Sure, and I-

Joe Rogan 57:38 ... to keep this stuff quiet?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 57:40 Sure. Um, and I wanna preface here, I'm not f- I'm not fearmongering.

Joe Rogan 57:43 No, I, I don't think you are.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 57:44 But, um, look, if I was, if I was a military person, right, I would look at this from the perspective of there's three options: they're good, they're neutral, or they're bad. So let's go down this road for a second. Let's say they're good, right?

Joe Rogan 58:01 Okay.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 58:01 Well, we got nothing to worry about. The problem is, there's noth- nothing to suggest that they truly are benevolent. People say, "Well, you know, they're like, they don't want us to nuke ourselves." Well, you know, I discuss it in, in, in what I wrote that there's no, there's no, there's no data to suggest that. They, they didn't stop us from dropping atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and vaporizing 500,000 living souls, they didn't stop us when we started developing nuclear weapons from the atomic age, they didn't stop the proliferation of nuclear weapons, they didn't stop the devel- uh, the testing in the Nevada range of, of, of atomic and nuclear weapons. And now how many countries have atomic weapons and nuclear weapons? A lot, right? Um, they didn't stop Chernobyl, they didn't stop Fukushima, they didn't stop Three Mile Island. So to say that they're here to help us, I'm not sure there's, there's data. People say, "Well, you know, in, in, in Minot and, and in North Dakota and Montana, they, the UFOs came in and they stopped, they, they interfered with our nuclear weapons and they brought the entire Echo flight offline." Which by the way, I have the government report on that if you want it. Um, but in Russia, what a lot of people don't know, they turned them on, right? So that's equally scary. They're interfering with our nuclear capability whether to attack or to defend ourselves. Um-

Joe Rogan 59:14 So when you say they turned them on in Russia, this is a, a Russian report?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 59:18 Yeah. So this is a, uh, I don't know if you remember the hearing, Congressional hearing that occurred last year where the, uh-

Joe Rogan 59:26 With David Grusch?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 59:27 Nope, the other one with Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence Ronald Moultrie and some people from the Navy, and, uh, I think it was Congressman Gallagher that asked a very specific question. And he said, "Are you aware of, uh, UFOs interfering with our nuclear capabilities?" And the response was something like, "No, not really familiar with it, never heard of it." And then the question was, I think re-asked specifically at these locations and the government's response was, "No, not familiar with it." Well, here's the actual report from the Department of Defense. This is the actual intelligence report that was released through FOIA. There's a, there's a gentleman out there, uh, who runs a site called The Black Vault, his name is John Greenwald. He's probably the world authority on Freedom of Information Act and he has a wealth of data that is out available to the public that he has received from the government. This is one of those documents. This is the document that our own government has no idea apparently exists.

Joe Rogan 1:00:22 I like how they write it in all caps.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:00:24 (laughs) Yeah, yeah, that's through the, the old reporting.

Joe Rogan 1:00:27 So obviously there's some people that don't want this to be released, and obviously there's some people that think that the, the general public has a right to know.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:00:36 I believe so.

Joe Rogan 1:00:37 Yeah.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:00:37 That's, that's my, that's been my observations and my experiences.

Joe Rogan 1:00:40 Well, that makes sense, you know, I mean, like when everybody says, "The CIA does this." Like, okay, who?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:00:45 Well, when-

Joe Rogan 1:00:45 Who in the CIA? Right?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:00:46 I didn't finish though the other part, right? So if they're not here for friend- if they're not, if it's not friendly-

Joe Rogan 1:00:50 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:00:50 ... that leaves them neutral like us-

Joe Rogan 1:00:51 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:00:52 Or benevolent.

Joe Rogan 1:00:53 Or benevolent.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:00:53 Benevolent. Now from a military perspective, and I just want to caveat, I don't agree with this, but I can respect the understanding. You sir are a general, and I say to you, uh, uh, and I say-... we cannot prove that they're not here to do something bad, but what we do know is that they can interfere, they- they're very interested in our, in our military capabilities and they have interfered with our nuclear capabilities, right?

Joe Rogan 1:01:16 Mm-hmm.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:01:17 From a military perspective, that looks an awful lot like something we call IPB, initial preparations of the battle space, or perhaps even ISR, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance. Whenever we're going to go into a foreign country and invade, (smacks lips) we do long-range surveillance. We want to know how the enemy operates, how they react. So, even if there's a 2% chance, 5% chance that these things are, are here to do something malevolent, right?

Joe Rogan 1:01:45 Mm-hmm.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:01:45 Then we probably should not tip our hands to the fact that we are aware of it publicly, because what happens the moment that the bad guys in a foreign country find our surveillance team over the border? We've got 12 hours. We, we've got to invade, because the element of surprise is now over. So, some may feel, in the government, the mere fact of acknowledging this, if there is some sort of malintent, may push up artificially a clock that exists somewhere for these things to say, "Uh-oh, okay. The, the, the foolish humans are now... The cat's out of the bag, they know we're, we're, we're here. We need to go in now," for whatever reason they may have. So, that is the military mindset, potentially, of some of these individuals who want to keep this secret, 'cause-

Joe Rogan 1:02:28 So, they're worried about an actual invasion?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:02:30 Well, but, but they have to be. That is-

Joe Rogan 1:02:32 Right, of course.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:02:32 ... that is the role of our national security-

Joe Rogan 1:02:34 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:02:34 ... apparatus, right?

Joe Rogan 1:02:35 Yes.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:02:35 Even if there's a 1% chance-

Joe Rogan 1:02:37 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:02:37 ... they have to consider that in their planning and in the decision mate- making matrix. So, again, going back to what I said, I respect that. I don't agree with it, but I can respect that. If that is the reason why, then I would say, okay, look, in your heart, you really do have the best interests of the American people, you are a patriot. I can accept that. Again, I don't think it's your decision to make. I think it needs to go to Congress, I think it needs to go to the President, let the American people decide. I think, I think America can handle the truth, I think America deserves the truth, and let the am- American people decide if, if it's in their best interest to know more about this.

Joe Rogan 1:03:09 I agree with you, but I also can see it from their perspective, like, they're probably insanely busy already, and the last thing they want to do is get involved-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:03:17 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:03:17 ... in this thing where now they have a PR campaign where they're trying to let people know about this thing and not cause mass panic.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:03:24 That's right. That's right. But you know what, though? I'm also very optimistic, Joe, 'cause you and I are having this conversation and people aren't making a run on Wall Street. People are still paying their mortgages-

Joe Rogan 1:03:34 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:03:34 ... and going to PTA meetings and-

Joe Rogan 1:03:36 And after the 2017 New York Times report, which was, uh, probably one of the, the biggest moments in UFO disclosure, because it was in the New York Times.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:03:46 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:46 And when you see something like that in The New York... Especially The New York Times in 2017, people really respected it. It's like, this is-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:03:51 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:03:52 ... this is a real story.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:03:53 Well, and this is, this is apolitical.

Joe Rogan 1:03:55 Yes.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:03:56 I mean, how many topics can you go to, to Congress and have that's not polarizing?

Joe Rogan 1:04:00 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:04:00 Right?

Joe Rogan 1:04:00 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:04:01 This is one of the only ones where you can have, literally have Congressman Burchett and, and, and Congresswoman AOC side-by-side agreeing that this, this is important.

Joe Rogan 1:04:10 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:04:11 This is, this is... It's a very rare opportunity. And so, you know, my concern... I am doing this because I believe it's the right thing to do, and my concern is that we're at a point now where I've said before, you know, secrets aren't like a fine wine, where the longer you keep a cork on it, the better it gets. I think secrets are perishable. I think they have a shelf life. I think they're like vegetables in your refrigerator, and there comes a point where if you leave them there too long, they start to rot and they start to stink, and it becomes a big mess to clean up, right?

Joe Rogan 1:04:39 Mm-hmm.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:04:39 And so, that's my perspective, and what I'm trying to do is give the government an ability to work its way out of a corner that it's put itself into for the last several decades, and with no seeming way out, right?

Joe Rogan 1:04:52 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:04:52 They look around like, "Well, how do we get ourselves out of this tree bag?"

Joe Rogan 1:04:54 Is there an issue of legality, like of c- of spending and like...

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:04:59 100%. 100%. There's, there's oversight issues.

Joe Rogan 1:05:02 So, there's people that would be liable for-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:05:04 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:05:04 ... not being straightforward with Congress?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:05:06 Yes, and I know people want their pound of flesh. I know there's people out there, "You, we've been lied to for decades and I want..."

Joe Rogan 1:05:12 Right, and then they make it a political issue-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:05:13 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:05:13 ... and they go after someone for... Yeah.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:05:15 And I think that's the wrong approach. I think, you know, there was a time where we needed to keep this secret, and I think what you do is you, you, you give those guys awards, give those guys and gals awards who, who did it.

Joe Rogan 1:05:24 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:05:24 Don't, don't make them enemies. Make them friends and say, "Okay, look, but those were different times. Now is the time to, to, to come clean, talk to the members of Congress-"

Joe Rogan 1:05:32 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:05:33 "... talk to..."

Joe Rogan 1:05:33 Forgive all the past sins.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:05:35 Yeah, truth and reconciliation.

Joe Rogan 1:05:36 Make them immune to prosecution.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:05:37 100%.

Joe Rogan 1:05:38 And let's just get clear with all this-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:05:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:40 ... and understand that it was all in good faith that you did it in the first place.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:05:43 100%. Now-

Joe Rogan 1:05:44 All in the interest of the United States' security.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:05:46 You talk about legal issues. The problem is, there are the real legal issues. So, let's say you have, again, my... these cups, forgive my analogies. Um, you have two aerospace companies, Company A, Company B. And let's say I am in the Department of Defense back in the '50s, '60s, and I come across this interesting technology. I have no idea what the hell it is, it just came out of the sky. And I go to Company A and I said, "Tell me what you can figure out about that." Right?

Joe Rogan 1:06:11 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:06:12 10 years later, Company A becomes a multi-billion dollar aerospace company. Company B goes bankrupt, 200 people lose their jobs, and now people who have stock, investors in that company, lose their money.

Joe Rogan 1:06:24 Hmm.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:06:25 Right? Unfair advantage. Keep in mind, you're supposed to have fair competition in the US government.

Joe Rogan 1:06:29 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:06:29 So, if you give an unfair advantage to Company A, to B, you're talking a serious liability. There's SEC violations there, there's all sorts of concerns one has to pay attention to, because someone somewhere gave an unfair advantage-

Joe Rogan 1:06:42 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:06:42 ... to one company over another. So, there, there's, there are legal liabilities that we have to, we have to recognize. It's not just clear-cut, okay, forgive and forget. You know, there's gonna have to be some, some additional protection, uh, and, and understanding for if, if that occurred, w- we need to figure out how we deal with that as well.

Joe Rogan 1:07:01 Mm-hmm. So, that would be an impediment to release. That makes a lot of sense.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:07:06 Yeah, these are big companies, right? With-

Joe Rogan 1:07:07 Yeah.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:07:07 ... deep pockets and a lot of-

Joe Rogan 1:07:09 Yeah.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:07:09 ... lawyers.

Joe Rogan 1:07:10 Well, it- I mean, also... This is a discussion that we've had on here before. If you did find something, who would you bring it to? Well, you'd bring it to the people that build your fucking jets. Like, "Hey guys, what the hell is this?" Like, you know, you make some sort of a top secret agreement. You, you bring it to them in some sort of a undisclosed facility.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:07:28 Best and brightest.

Joe Rogan 1:07:29 Secured.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:07:29 Best and brightest.

Joe Rogan 1:07:30 And bring the guys in and go-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:07:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:31 ... "What the fuck is this thing?"

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:07:33 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:07:33 Yeah.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:07:34 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:07:34 You kind of have to. Otherwise, like how, what else would you do? You know?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:07:37 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:07:37 I mean, how else do you find out how these things work? And if you were going to do it in a secretive fa- ma- manner, you would have to bring it to defense contractors, 'cause those are the only people that are capable of making things.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:07:48 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:07:48 They make your jets.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:07:49 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:07:49 They make, they make the, you know, every stealth bomber, every... Well, whatever-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:07:54 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:07:54 ... the fuck it is. They make all that shit, so.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:07:56 Going back to... You know, a, a colleague of mine made the comparison. He said, "Look, Lou, imagine being, uh, during the days of da Vinci and all of a sudden bringing da Vinci a garage door opener. You have no idea what it's used for."

Joe Rogan 1:08:11 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:08:11 You've never seen plastic before and you don't even understand electromagnetic radiation, right? You know, and, and, and infrared. You know, where do you start on the analysis-

Joe Rogan 1:08:20 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:08:20 ... and exploitation of a technology that the physics hasn't even been discovered yet, right?

Joe Rogan 1:08:25 Right. I mean, garage door openers seem like magic.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:08:28 Right. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:28 It really does. You know?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:08:30 Yeah. I press a button and the door opens like magic. Wait, where's the horse? Where's the strings? What's... Right.

Joe Rogan 1:08:34 Exactly. Yeah.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:08:34 So.

Joe Rogan 1:08:34 It's kind of bananas. You press a button on your car and all of a sudden your door opens.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:08:38 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:08:38 And you drive in and you press another button and it closes and it's all done through the air.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:08:42 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:08:43 Which is bananas.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:08:45 Magical, right?

Joe Rogan 1:08:45 But we're just accustomed to it.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:08:46 That's right.

Joe Rogan 1:08:47 Yeah. So this kind of technology, um... I'm sure you're aware of the Bob Lazar story.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:08:54 I'm aware. I, I don't know Bob. I've never met him, so.

Joe Rogan 1:08:56 You never got into that?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:08:57 I've... I did not. I-

Joe Rogan 1:08:58 How could you not with your line of work?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:09:00 Be- because, you know, I, I always wanted to be insulated from prejudicing the jury.

Joe Rogan 1:09:05 Okay.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:09:05 And I know it sounds kind of strange, but I didn't ever-

Joe Rogan 1:09:07 No, it makes sense.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:09:08 You know, it's, it, it's, it, it's kind of something I impose on myself because I didn't want to have any preconceived notions of going in. Most people kind of, I suspect, would be tempted to say, "Well, I'm gonna learn everything I can about, you know, UFO lore." I wanted the opposite. I-

Joe Rogan 1:09:20 You're a better man than me.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:09:21 I ne- well... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:09:22 (laughs)

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:09:22 All of I'm better, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:23 I'll keep fucking chasing that shit down.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:09:24 (laughs) I, you know, I think, um, I just... I, I just wanted to be very, very careful to preserve the investigative integrity, right?

Joe Rogan 1:09:35 Mm-hmm.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:09:35 And we're... Look, we're all humans. We're all biased.

Joe Rogan 1:09:37 Mm-hmm.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:09:38 That's... There's no way around it. We all have some degree of bias. Let's, let's be honest and truthful here. It doesn't matter what type of bias it is, we all have some sort of bias somewhere, whether it's food or it's the people you like to date or whatever.

Joe Rogan 1:09:48 Mm-hmm.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:09:48 Um, I wanted to avoid that as much as possible, and so I, I always kept it very, very focused on the here and now.

Joe Rogan 1:09:56 Mm-hmm.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:09:56 And, you know, what, what can we see today?

Joe Rogan 1:10:00 Right. You're aware of the story though, right?

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:10:03 I, I...

Joe Rogan 1:10:03 The basic...

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:10:04 Tangentially. I... That-

Joe Rogan 1:10:05 Yeah.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:10:05 That he worked at a particular facility, and at that facility he was exposed to some sort of, uh, UAP technology.

Joe Rogan 1:10:11 That thing.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:10:12 Right. That thing. Um-

Joe Rogan 1:10:13 That thing right there, the support model. And that he was brought in, um, as a propulsions expert and to, to try to... They didn't know how it exactly worked-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:10:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:10:23 ... but they, they sort of just said, "Tell me what this is."

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:10:26 Roger.

Joe Rogan 1:10:27 And then along the way he realized, "Oh, this isn't even ours."

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:10:30 Yeah. I'm, I'm aware of, uh, again, the, the overarching story.

Joe Rogan 1:10:34 Mm-hmm.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:10:34 I, I don't know any of the details and I've, I've never met him personally, so I'm, I'm-

Joe Rogan 1:10:38 He's a very, very interesting guy. I had dinner with him with my friend Andrew Schultes and Jeremy Corbell. We, uh, we went to dinner and, you know, informally talked and had a fascinating conversation and yeah.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:10:50 Jeremy's a great guy.

Joe Rogan 1:10:51 He's a great guy.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:10:51 Yeah. He's, he's really... You know, he's done a lot to-

Joe Rogan 1:10:53 He said to say hi.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:10:54 Oh. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:10:54 (laughs)

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:10:55 Hi.

Joe Rogan 1:10:56 He's pumped that we're talking.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:10:57 Yeah. He's done a lot for this cause.

Joe Rogan 1:10:58 He's, he's a UFO nut, and he got me really way back in with his documentary, um, of Bob Lazar flying saucers, whatever, whatever the actual title of it is. But that, that documentary's fantastic, and it's essentially going over Bob Lazar's story from the 1980s to today. Which he's told the exact same story, which is nuts that you have one giant lie your whole life. Like, come on. Th- there's a lot of weirdness to the story-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:11:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:11:25 ... obviously. Um, like there is with everything, there's a lot of people that want to discredit his, um, his background and all sorts of other things. But the, the reality of what he's saying is essentially what we're seeing in these crafts, which is very strange. So, he described how these things worked and how they moved and how they would turn sideways and sort of like project this... Whatever this reactor that they have inside of them, and he, he talked about this element, element 115, they have a stable version of it, that was, uh, essentially just theoretical at the time in, in 1980. No one, no one really knew whether or not that thing actually even exists.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:12:01 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:12:01 '89 or whatever it was. And that it would douse this thing, project radiation upon it, and it would create this warp, this gravity warp, this, this thing that allowed this, this craft to move in ways that defied our understanding-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:12:19 Wow.

Joe Rogan 1:12:19 ... of the propulsions systems.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:12:20 That's a hell of a lu- that's a hell of a lucky guess if-

Joe Rogan 1:12:21 Hell of a lucky guess.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:12:22 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:12:22 Hell of a lucky guess-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:12:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:23 ... in 1989.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:12:24 Wow.

Joe Rogan 1:12:24 And he drew it, his diagrams of what this thing looked like and, you know, how it worked, and it essentially looked exactly like that little model that's on the desk there. And that he felt like the whole th- it didn't make any sense. He said the whole thing, it didn't have any seams. Which now we understand 3D printing, right? So now we know that we can actually, we've given-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:12:44 But, but only now.

Joe Rogan 1:12:45 Right.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:12:45 Not back then, right?

Joe Rogan 1:12:45 Of course.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:12:46 I mean, everything had rivets.

Joe Rogan 1:12:47 Exactly.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:12:47 You know, the skin of a craft was the skin of an aircraft-

Joe Rogan 1:12:49 Exactly.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:12:49 It had rivets and it had nuts and bolts and-

Joe Rogan 1:12:51 Mm-hmm.

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:12:51 ... you know.

Joe Rogan 1:12:51 Exactly. You know, but now, you know, o- obviously now we have carbon fiber, we have a bunch of different ways to-

Luis "Lue" Elizondo 1:12:56 Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:12:56 ... construct them things. But back then, he didn't know what the fuck that thing was. He said it looked like it had all been melted, like into place, like that it had been like, almost like smooth like wax, like melted wax. And that it, it had no instrumentation inside of it and it was designed for very small things, like something