Joe Rogan Experience #2195 - Andrew Huberman

1. 0:00 – 3:17

   Dog genetics: wolf vs. mastiff ancestry and extreme size variation

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music plays)

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      All right, we're good. Mr. Huberman, how are you, sir? Good to see you. (laughs)

   3. AHAndrew Huberman0:15

      Good to see you. Good to see you.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      So, what were you just saying about dog breeds that... Like, we were talking about Carl, like the little bulldog breeds have more mastiff than wolf?

   5. AHAndrew Huberman0:24

      Yeah, so-

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:25

      So, mastiff is a different thing?

   7. AHAndrew Huberman0:27

      Well, so-

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:28

      Don't they all come from wolves?

   9. AHAndrew Huberman0:29

      Yeah, they all originate from wolves, but then dog selection has been twofold. Mainly for phenotype, like morphology, the shape we call it, and then temperament, right? So, there's this chart I... Uh, might be a little hard to find online, um, about the dosing of wolf versus mastiff genetics, essentially. And there's a bunch of other things woven into dog genetics. First of all, cool point, dogs are among, I don't know if they are the most, maybe whales are the most, but they are among the greatest variation in body size within a given species. You think of Chihuahua and Great Dane-

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:05

       Right, right.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman1:05

       ... and it looks like it's dosing of the genes controlling IGF-1.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:10

       Oh.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman1:10

       Which makes sense.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:11

       Right.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman1:11

       A growth hormone.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:11

       Yeah.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman1:11

       But kinda wild, right? Like, you-

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:13

       Yeah.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman1:13

       ... we got some big humans and some smaller humans, but not-

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:16

       Not like dogs.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman1:16

       Not like dogs, and then-

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:17

       Chihuahuas-

   23. AHAndrew Huberman1:18

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:18

       ... and then what are those enormous, uh, shepherd dogs? Those, um, what are those ones, those insane dogs they use to fight off wolves? What the fuck are those things called? Those gigantic hairy things? You know what I'm talking about? Uh... We've talked about them before.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman1:34

       The-

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:34

       They're terrifying-looking dogs. Yeah, the-

   27. AHAndrew Huberman1:36

       Yeah, I mean, just the-

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:37

       What's it called? It's that but it doesn't show on camera.

   29. AHAndrew Huberman1:39

       Oh, my goodness.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:39

       Oh, yeah, those things.
2. 3:17 – 8:31

   Bulldogs, mastiff traits, and what breeds were designed to do

   1. AHAndrew Huberman3:17

      Like a shepherd, have more heavy- dosing of the wolf gene still in them. Then you get to the shorter snout, kind of snub-nosed like the French bulldog, the English bulldog, and some mastiff breeds, pugs, right? And the, the amount of wolf in them is, like, nil to none. And then what's happ-

   2. JRJoe Rogan3:34

      But, but wait, wait a minute, but they all start off as wolves.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman3:36

      So, they s- have some genes that relate to the wolf origin, origin lineage, right? But over time, they've been bred. For instance, the English bulldog, what-

   4. JRJoe Rogan3:44

      Right, but, but all dogs originally come from wolves.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman3:46

      Yes.

   6. JRJoe Rogan3:47

      All of them.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman3:47

      That's my understanding as well.

   8. JRJoe Rogan3:48

      Even mastiffs?

   9. AHAndrew Huberman3:48

      That's right. That's my understanding. But then as they were cross-bred with different dogs, right? So, for instance, like, the English bulldog, that line came from the crossing of essentially pug, like, s- short snout, right?

   10. JRJoe Rogan4:01

       Mm-hmm.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman4:01

       But with mastiff, with mastiffs or with dogs with heavy mastiff genetic dosing. Why? Well, the idea was the short snout gives them a, a good lever for holding onto things, right? And the mastiff genes lead to, and we know this for sure, both the droopiness of the face. It also relates to less, uh, presence of pain receptors in the front of the body.

   12. JRJoe Rogan4:22

       Oh.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman4:23

       Okay, so if you've ever had a bulldog where, you know, their feet can be really sensitive, but their face, you can hold onto those jowls. My bulldog, Costello, would go picking up stuff at the beach and he'd occasionally get a fish hook in his mouth and it looks super painful, and he's like, "Ugh." You know? So, not, not very many pain sensors in the face. They have a-

   14. JRJoe Rogan4:37

       Hmm.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman4:37

       ... they have a disruption and, or mutation in the gene that controls the elasticity of skin. That's why they have the droopiness. And they are, uh, brachycephalic, short snout. That's why they're not very good breathers.

   16. JRJoe Rogan4:49

       Mm-hmm.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman4:49

       And they essentially have sleep apnea. That's why they have a bunch of problems.

   18. JRJoe Rogan4:51

       Right.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman4:51

       Okay.

   20. JRJoe Rogan4:51

       They snore like a motherfucker.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman4:53

       R- they do s- they do snore a lot.

   22. JRJoe Rogan4:54

       (laughs)

   23. AHAndrew Huberman4:54

       I can attest.

   24. JRJoe Rogan4:55

       (laughs) Like Carl does.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman4:56

       It's crazy. And, and so what were dogs being selected for? Well, unless you're showing dogs, dogs were selected for the kind of work they were capable of doing. Like, sheepdogs are great herders, this kind of thing. But when people essentially designed, bred up and cross-bred to get the English bulldog or the Old English bulldog, which doesn't have as much of an underbite. So, I had an Old English bulldog. So, whereas the English bulldog is elbows out.

   26. JRJoe Rogan5:21

       Mm-hmm.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman5:21

       So, inward rotation, the thing we're all supposed to not do, and under-right. The Old English bulldog looks like this. And that-

   28. JRJoe Rogan5:27

       It looks more like a pit bull.

   29. AHAndrew Huberman5:29

       Looks more like a pit bull. And they were originally used for bull-baiting, for grabbing onto the nose of the bull, getting the bull super aggressive, and then being able to let go and get called off and coming back to their, uh, to their protector. And then basically, then it was for, it was to rile up the bull.

   30. JRJoe Rogan5:43

       Mm-hmm.
3. 8:31 – 9:13

   Scent hounds, floppy ears, and how dogs smell so well

   1. AHAndrew Huberman8:31

      Yeah. So w- so now when I see like, okay, like a collie, like I see a collie down there. I think long snout, so probably has a better nose than a, than a mastiff breed.

   2. JRJoe Rogan8:39

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman8:39

      Um, are the ... You can ask an owner how good is their vision. Are they a sight hound or a scent hound? And of course, that they're both. But some dogs like ... I'm really interested now in part because of you and Cam Hanes and others about dogs that hunt or go on hunts. And like the coonhound breeds are amazing.

   4. JRJoe Rogan8:55

      Yeah, they use their-

   5. AHAndrew Huberman8:56

      And I've always wanted a redbone coonhound.

   6. JRJoe Rogan8:57

      Their ears waft up smell. That's why they're so long.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman9:01

      I didn't know that.

   8. JRJoe Rogan9:02

      Yeah.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman9:02

      I didn't know that.

   10. JRJoe Rogan9:02

       Yeah, the reason why they have those long floppy ears is as they're running, their ears are wafting up smell, and it gives them a better sense of, uh, the, the, the chase.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman9:12

       Oh, amazing.

   12. JRJoe Rogan9:12

       Yeah.

4. 9:13 – 18:08

   Can humans track scents too? Berkeley chocolate experiments and myth-busting

   1. AHAndrew Huberman9:13

      I r- I read, um, this, uh, incredible description of why dog scent and sense of smell is so much better than ours. There's a guy named Noam Sobel who's been on my podcast, uh, he- he's over in Israel, who claims that human olfaction is just as good as dog olfaction. But how do they, how do they outdo us? The frequency of sniffs and this is really cool. You know those little notches on the side of the nose? Like, our nostrils look more or less symmetric?

   2. JRJoe Rogan9:38

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman9:39

      They have those little notches. They create, they create little vortices for the dogs so that the scents stick around. They're actually getting longer exposure to a scent. So when they ... (sniffing) They're getting something like 10 or 20X the exposure to the scent in the olfactory bulb and are able to assess both directionality. They can do right nostril, left r- nostril. They can sense odor plumes to steer in one direction or another. But Noam has done these crazy experiments when he was back at Berkeley where he had people's hands mitted, eyes covered, so they can't sense touch, they can't see. Everything's covered. And they can follow a scent of chocolate buried seven inches below the ground.

   4. JRJoe Rogan10:18

      What? People can?

   5. AHAndrew Huberman10:19

      Yes.

   6. JRJoe Rogan10:19

      (laughs)

   7. AHAndrew Huberman10:19

      And you can see this. This you can find. If you say, uh, uh, tracking ... Sorry, Jamie. (laughs) My goal wasn't to come here and send you on these, um-

   8. JRJoe Rogan10:25

      These people have a nose like Ari Shaffir?

   9. AHAndrew Huberman10:27

      Uh, d- (laughs) Oh, boy.

   10. NANarrator10:29

       (laughs)

   11. AHAndrew Huberman10:30

       (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan10:30

       (laughs)

   13. AHAndrew Huberman10:30

       (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan10:31

       Or Adrien Brody?

   15. AHAndrew Huberman10:32

       Oh, my. Oh, my. Um, if you say, uh, kinda Berkeley chocolate, uh, tracking, uh, Sobel or something like that, it should come up. So he would do these aerial views of these people tracking these scents on the ground, and it turns out people are really good at this. They can track a scent, um, yeah. And if you-

   16. JRJoe Rogan10:49

       Sniffers show that humans can track scents and that two nostrils are better than one. Okay.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman10:55

       So if you, but if you go Images, I think you'll probably-

   18. JRJoe Rogan10:58

       Chocolate scent through the grass.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman10:59

       Yeah, if you go Images, and then I'll lay off the, the Google-

   20. JRJoe Rogan11:03

       They will track scents.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman11:05

       So if you go to Images, uh, damn it, and you just say, uh, Berkeley. Just say ... There it is.

   22. NANarrator11:13

       Okay.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman11:13

       Right. So they compared the tracking of a scent hound, of a, of a bloodhound to human tracking of a scent buried, uh, in the case of the se- uh, the bloodhound, it wasn't buried.

   24. JRJoe Rogan11:23

       So that person, what do they have, a mask on?

   25. AHAndrew Huberman11:24

       Yeah, they got a mask on. Their hands are covered with thick gloves. They can only use ... The on- the only thing exposed are their nostrils.

   26. JRJoe Rogan11:31

       Hmm.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman11:31

       And they're ... But that line, that yellow line is not a line with a bunch of chocolate on it. It's buried below the surface. I always thought it was above, and then when I talked to Noam, he said, "No, no, they buried the chocolate scent." And people were able to track it like a, like a hunting dog tracks a pheasant.

   28. JRJoe Rogan11:45

       Well, how do they bury it if it's grass?

   29. AHAndrew Huberman11:48

       I think they cut a trench and then they covered it up.

   30. JRJoe Rogan11:50

       Oh. Wow.
5. 18:08 – 22:13

   Olfaction biology: cribriform plate, anosmia, regeneration, and smell recovery tools

   1. JRJoe Rogan18:08

      (laughs) This, this is a, a mule deer skull.So, you know, this is, uh, not as extreme as an elk, but you get a look at the internal-

   2. AHAndrew Huberman18:19

      Okay.

   3. JRJoe Rogan18:19

      ... if you look inside of that, and you see.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman18:21

      Oh, yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan18:21

      'Cause they can wind you from 100 m- yards away-

   6. AHAndrew Huberman18:25

      It's on here.

   7. JRJoe Rogan18:25

      ... easy.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman18:25

      So, see this spongy stuff? I don't know if they can see it on video. There's this spongy stuff there.

   9. JRJoe Rogan18:29

      Mm-hmm.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman18:30

       That's something called the cribriform plate. The cribriform plate is a bunch of Swiss cheese-like thin bone, and the olfactory neurons, which basically sit, like, right behind your, the back of your nostrils, they, uh, they send axons, their little wire-like connections, back into the brain. And when somebody gets hit hard on the head, that cribriform bl- plate shears it, and that's why people become anosmic, they lose their sense of smell.

   11. JRJoe Rogan18:51

       Yeah.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman18:52

       Now, the-

   13. JRJoe Rogan18:52

       Look at that fic- picture.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman18:54

       There it is.

   15. JRJoe Rogan18:54

       Yeah.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman18:54

       Now, what's amazing about the olfactory neurons is that they are among the very few neurons in the human and other mammalian nervous system that regenerates throughout the lifespan. So, there's a little area of your hippocampus where there's some neurons that everyone makes a big deal of that, frankly, don't do a lot to regenerate throughout the lifespan, so-called neurogenesis, new neurons. But the olfactory neurons, even though they're a central nervous system neuron, just your like retinal neuron or your cerebral cortex, they can regenerate throughout the entire lifespan, and they do. Every time someone takes a head hit or there's some, you know, shearing off of these accents, uh, axons, excuse me, um, they regenerate. Now, under conditions like, uh, we saw this a lot, uh, during COVID where people were complaining about loss of smell.

   17. JRJoe Rogan19:35

       Mm-hmm.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman19:36

       Um, we see this when people age. Some people are thinking that loss of smell may be a correlate, not the cause, but obviously, but a correlate of age-related cognitive decline, dementia and Alzheimer's, things like that. Um, there are a few things. Actually, I think I recommended it to a couple of friends of ours. Now, this, there's very little data on this, but I will say, and I'll, I'll catch heat for this, but these days I catch heat anyway, so I don't care. There are good data, in my opinion, small amount of data, but let's call it decent enough data to explore, that alpha-lipoic acid at 600 milligrams per day during the time when you're starting to lose your smell might rescue some of that smell. Bec- by res-

   19. JRJoe Rogan20:16

       So if someone's getting COVID and they start to lose their sense of smell, if they-

   20. AHAndrew Huberman20:20

       Or any viral infection where they are losing the sense of smell.

   21. JRJoe Rogan20:23

       What other viral infections cause a loss of sense of smell?

   22. AHAndrew Huberman20:26

       Well, anything that clogs the sinuses, certainly, but, um, there are influenza viruses that do this. Now, I know as we're saying this that some people are gonna say... uh, in fact, Noam Sobel told me that he felt that the data about alpha-lipoic acid were kind of on the weak side. But when people are losing their sense of smell and taste, it's really scary. I mean, it's one of those things where, you know, you kind of feel like so much of pleasure in life, unbeknownst to us, is-

   23. JRJoe Rogan20:48

       Yeah.

   24. AHAndrew Huberman20:48

       ... emerges with-

   25. JRJoe Rogan20:49

       Especially with food.

   26. AHAndrew Huberman20:49

       Oh, I'll never forget when I got a viral infection and I took... and I lost my sense of smell. And I ate a handful of blueberries, which I love, and it just tasted like bags of water.

   27. JRJoe Rogan20:59

       Hmm.

   28. AHAndrew Huberman20:59

       I was like, I was like, "Oh, goodness." Like, I, I don't... there are worse things in life.

   29. JRJoe Rogan21:02

       Was it COVID that you l- lost your smell with?

   30. AHAndrew Huberman21:04

       It was, it was. And I did the smell training, which has also been shown to work. Because these olfactory neurons, this is amazing, their survival is activity dependent. They require electrical activity driven by sniffing and smelling. It is true that the behavioral tool of taking a lemon and (sniffs) really just, like, getting it close to that nostril and just really trying to get whatever little whiff of lemon you can, and then taking, you know, your coffee and (sniffs) getting that little whiff of coffee, whatever little remnants of smell that you can get in there has been shown to improve the survival and eventually the durability of not just the olfactory neurons, but scent. In other words, the behavioral training works. There are... the alpha-lipoic acid thing is debated. The thing about alpha-lipoic acid is diabetics and people with blood sugar issues probably shouldn't take it. It can kind of reduce blood sugar a little bit. But when I had that happen, lost my sense of smell, I was like, "Listen, I, I don't... I want my smell back." So I took 600 milligrams of alpha-lipoic acid, and I was doing the, the scent training. I was like, sniffing lemon, sniffing coffee, sniffing Parmesan cheese, sniffing anything that was pungent that I could recognize. And my smell came back-
6. 22:13 – 28:38

   Smelling salts experiment: intense sensation, safety questions, and nostril dominance cycling

   1. JRJoe Rogan22:13

      Is it only positive smells? Or what about if you use smelling salts or something, like, really intense?

   2. AHAndrew Huberman22:18

      Ooh. Well, smelling salts I've never used, but-

   3. JRJoe Rogan22:20

      Uh-oh.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman22:21

      ... but, but I-

   5. JRJoe Rogan22:21

      Well, well, guess what?

   6. AHAndrew Huberman22:22

      Do we have some?

   7. JRJoe Rogan22:23

      We've got some right here.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman22:24

      I'd be willing to try.

   9. JRJoe Rogan22:25

      Give it a check. Go ahead and get it, Jamie.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman22:26

       Are they legal?

   11. JRJoe Rogan22:26

       Oh, yeah.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman22:26

       Before I do something illegal.

   13. JRJoe Rogan22:28

       100%.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman22:28

       Okay.

   15. JRJoe Rogan22:28

       Yeah.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman22:28

       All right.

   17. JRJoe Rogan22:29

       Yeah, these are totally legal.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman22:30

       All right, I'll give it a shot.

   19. JRJoe Rogan22:31

       Uh, these are the one... this is Ahh.

   20. AHAndrew Huberman22:32

       (laughs) Jamie's laughing.

   21. JRJoe Rogan22:34

       This is, uh, Jujimufu, uh-

   22. AHAndrew Huberman22:36

       Oh, my.

   23. JRJoe Rogan22:36

       ... who was a, a real athletic freak-

   24. AHAndrew Huberman22:38

       Okay.

   25. JRJoe Rogan22:38

       ... who, who uses these. We... I don't know him, but, uh, shout out to him-

   26. AHAndrew Huberman22:42

       Okay.

   27. JRJoe Rogan22:42

       ... because this is the strongest shit we have ever-

   28. AHAndrew Huberman22:44

       Wait, wha-

   29. JRJoe Rogan22:44

       ... tried.

   30. AHAndrew Huberman22:45

       I will just-
7. 28:38 – 38:38

   From ‘smell’ to social sensing: detecting lies, manipulation, and high-conflict personalities

   1. JRJoe Rogan28:38

      I always say that I can smell bullshit.

   2. AHAndrew Huberman28:41

      (laughs) You probably can.

   3. JRJoe Rogan28:42

      But I don't know if I really can smell it. But when someone's lying, I feel like there's a smell.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman28:47

      It, th- there could be the stress. It could be a certain...

   5. JRJoe Rogan28:50

      Mm.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman28:50

      You know, we talk about stress as one thing, but stress is the dosing of different levels of cortisol, epinephrine. People that are pathological liars, they can probably do it without evoking those things. Then you have things like pupil size. Bigger the pupils, more arousal, right? The more stressed somebody is.

   7. JRJoe Rogan29:04

      Mm-hmm.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman29:04

      Right? We know this, right? That's why, like, if somebody takes a stimulant-

   9. JRJoe Rogan29:08

      There's a-

   10. AHAndrew Huberman29:08

       ... their pupils will get huge.

   11. JRJoe Rogan29:09

       There's a thing that people do when they're full of shit where they're anticipating your response in a different way. Like when someone's telling the truth, like, "If you tell me the truth, you seem r- relaxed-"

   12. AHAndrew Huberman29:21

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan29:21

       "... to my response." Like, "You're telling me..."

   14. AHAndrew Huberman29:23

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan29:23

       Even if it's something that you're not proud of, "You're telling me the truth. This is the thing." When someone's lying, it's almost like they're waiting to see how you buy it.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman29:33

       So that it's like their defenses are up. They're-

   17. JRJoe Rogan29:35

       They're s-

   18. AHAndrew Huberman29:35

       They counterpunch quicker.

   19. JRJoe Rogan29:36

       They're, well, they're selling it. They're, they, they say it, and they're like, "Does he buy it?" Like, you feel the, "Does he buy it?" And like, ooh, you're full of shit.

   20. AHAndrew Huberman29:44

       Oh, interesting. So-

   21. JRJoe Rogan29:45

       You know what I'm saying?

   22. AHAndrew Huberman29:45

       L- let me think about this. So you are able to sense the, their anticipation of your response. It's like they've got, uh, queued up some counter, uh, some, uh, evaluating where you're g- uh, whether you're going yes, no, or maybe.

   23. JRJoe Rogan30:02

       Yeah, but it's not reliable. Like, I, I just be, to, to be completely honest, I've been bullshitted before. But it... I think I'm better at it than most, and I think maybe that's 'cause I've had more conversations with people than most people have. But, uh, it's not 100%. Sometimes people are full of shit and you don't... You're not sure, or you have your defenses down.

   24. AHAndrew Huberman30:21

       I mean, I've been badly, badly manipulated before.

   25. JRJoe Rogan30:23

       Yeah.

   26. AHAndrew Huberman30:24

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan30:24

       It happens.

   28. AHAndrew Huberman30:24

       Yeah, yeah. (laughs) It happens.

   29. JRJoe Rogan30:25

       Yeah, especially if you like someone. You know, that's part of the problem. You don't want them to be full of shit.

   30. AHAndrew Huberman30:30

       Yeah.
8. 38:38 – 44:49

   Risk, excitement, and the attraction to ‘dangerous’ partners (plus tattoos as signals)

   1. JRJoe Rogan38:38

      It's also, I think, there's some people that are very sheltered, and they've been well taken care of, and they're not accustomed to manipulative people-

   2. AHAndrew Huberman38:45

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan38:45

      ... and they're not accustomed to dangerous people.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman38:48

      Right.

   5. JRJoe Rogan38:48

      And so they don't... I've- I've seen that before-

   6. AHAndrew Huberman38:50

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan38:51

      ... both with, uh, m- people choosing the wrong friends and people choosing the wrong partners.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman38:55

      Yeah, that certainly hasn't been my pattern. Um, not that I had the hardest upbringing. But it was easy- I would say easier than some, harder than others. But I always had great friends, great friendships. But my threat sensing, um, it wasn't always great in romantic relationships for sure. I've also had some great relationships. I think what tends to happen is that if we're very busy, we have this tendency to f- to be easily manipulated by certain things that are unusual that we... just that really feel like extra oxygen to us-

   9. JRJoe Rogan39:24

      Mm-hmm.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman39:24

       ... or just feel so nourishing. And 'cause I think people always or will often all, uh, default to sex. Like, it's all about sex. Depending on who you are, like, sex is either more or less readily available to you, right? Like, I think that for some people, it's nurturing, like to... a certain form of nurturing. And then there's also this thing of we know how to survive certain things so they don't feel as dangerous. So, people who've had, like, very, um, you know, uh, overbearing or- or ch- complicated childhoods or abusive childhoods, sometimes they're set to perceive danger at way too high a threshold.

   11. JRJoe Rogan39:56

       Right.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman39:56

       Right? So th- their perception of what's dangerous-

   13. JRJoe Rogan39:59

       Right.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman39:59

       ... is, like, way too high. And so they walk into even still dangerous situations, but they don't think of them as dangerous. And they're like, "Oh, I can navigate this." They're good at navigating difficult people, or they're good at navigating, you know, borderline people or something like that.

   15. JRJoe Rogan40:13

       I think it's also exciting, which is part of the problem, that people like excitement. And if you have a boring life and a life that doesn't have a lot of stimulation in it, and then you find someone, even if they're bad for you, but they're exciting, there's some- some conflict, some something. There's- there's fights and breakups and then makeups, which are exciting, you know? And so then you get locked into this stimulation pattern, which is... or I've seen that multiple times with people. It's a real problem.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman40:42

       Do you think it's more of a problem with people that, um, like excitement and adventure and are super curious but like excitement and adventure? So I'm thinking comics. I'm thinking, um, people who like high-intensity sports, that they seek relationships that are higher intensity. Because, you know, I- I've received great advice from people like Rick, who have said, "You know, your relationship should be a sanctuary. That should be where peace is." You know? And actually, I don't pay a lot of attention to Instagram kind of little mottos and things. But someone sent me one that, uh, I was like, "Yes, that feels so true," which is that men eventually settle where they feel peace.

   17. JRJoe Rogan41:21

       Yeah, I think that's probably the healthiest way to do it. But I think people like... like I said, that I think people like stimulation. And I don't think a lot of people are stimulated by their day-to-day existence. I think they're bored. I think a lot of people are just, like, trudging along every day. And then when someone comes along that makes you excited in your life, you know, where it's someone who's just a little wilder, a little crazier, or maybe some lady who's got a bunch of tattoos. Like, look at her, you know? Like, whoa. You know, people get excited by people that are a little bit dangerous because-

   18. AHAndrew Huberman41:53

       Yeah, this idea that anything could... like- like, anything could happen. They- they could do anything.

   19. JRJoe Rogan41:57

       Well, they're risky. They're risky people, you know? Someone's got tattoos on their hands. Like, Jesus, what is she doing? You know?

   20. AHAndrew Huberman42:02

       Yeah, you and I both have a lot of tattoos, but-

   21. JRJoe Rogan42:04

       Yeah.

   22. AHAndrew Huberman42:04

       ... we keep... I've kept it... intentionally kept it off the- the hands and neck and face.

   23. JRJoe Rogan42:06

       I've thought about doing my hands. But it's, uh... the face is a real problem. Like, that's a little wacky.

   24. AHAndrew Huberman42:12

       I think-

   25. JRJoe Rogan42:12

       But I have a lot of friends. Like, Jelly Roll's a good friend of mine. He's got tattoos all over his face. Post Malone, good friend of mine.

   26. AHAndrew Huberman42:17

       I think if you were a musician-

   27. JRJoe Rogan42:18

       Tattoos all... he's got a bunch of written shit all over his face. Yeah, I mean, uh, they're the nicest people. The thing about, like, Jelly Roll and Post is, like, once you talk to them, once you're talking to them, you don't th- see the tattoos anymore. You just see the human.

   28. AHAndrew Huberman42:30

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan42:31

       You know? And it's just like... th- them wearing a shirt. It's like no... it's nothing.

   30. AHAndrew Huberman42:34

       Yeah.
9. 44:49 – 50:33

   Smelling salts and performance: adrenaline, primitive circuits, and pain buffering

   1. JRJoe Rogan44:49

      The people that are into this, um, smelling salt stuff, th- they're powerlifters, and they take a big sniff of that stuff before they lift weights. Why would that help them?

   2. AHAndrew Huberman44:58

      Adrenaline.

   3. JRJoe Rogan44:58

      Adrenaline?

   4. AHAndrew Huberman44:59

      Yeah. So, couple of more things about olfaction. And by the way, I love this stuff. This is so wild, 'cause it's the most primitive part of our brain and nervous system. We were chemical sensors before we were light sensors.

   5. JRJoe Rogan45:11

      Hmm.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman45:12

      Right? We were sensing chemical environments. "Is this a, a safe chemical environment?"

   7. JRJoe Rogan45:15

      Right.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman45:15

      And we evolved from that.

   9. JRJoe Rogan45:16

      Right.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman45:17

       We know that, for instance, memories that are associated with smell, like the... People will say, "The smell of my grandmother's kitchen," or, "Somebody's hands, my grandfather's hands," that, those memories stick with us longer than anything, because the olfactory bulb has a direct line to a couple of structures in the brain. We ha- so we have an olfactory bulb, which is the main thing for smell. Then there's something called the accessory olfactory bulb. It sort of divides into primitive smells that are like, ugh, aversive, get away quick. Those tend to go through a really fast line, through the olf- accessory olfactory bulb, takes us straight to the amygdala, to the piriform cortex that says, "Move your body and face in, away from that." Like, I didn't sit there and (sniffs) -

   11. JRJoe Rogan45:53

       Right, right, right.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman45:53

       ... on those smelling salts. It's like, boom, get away.

   13. JRJoe Rogan45:55

       Right.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman45:56

       It's, it's like a reflex.

   15. JRJoe Rogan45:56

       Yeah.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman45:56

       It's like in fish, there's this thing called the Mauthner neuron, where you touch on one side of the body. What does the fish do? Goes the opposite direction.

   17. JRJoe Rogan46:03

       Mm-hmm.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman46:03

       Big, huge neuron. Hardwired circuit.

   19. JRJoe Rogan46:06

       Well, they have those lateral lines that detects-

   20. AHAndrew Huberman46:08

       Exactly.

   21. JRJoe Rogan46:08

       ... scen- sounds and things and vibrations in the water.

   22. AHAndrew Huberman46:11

       They're sensing, electrosensing at a distance.

   23. JRJoe Rogan46:13

       Mm-hmm.

   24. AHAndrew Huberman46:13

       And it... These Mauthner neurons are incredible. You touch, boom. The fish heads the opposite direction. Doesn't go like, "Oh, are you another friendly fish? You want a mate?"

   25. JRJoe Rogan46:20

       Right.

   26. AHAndrew Huberman46:20

       They go, "I'm out of here. Oh," and then they check you out.

   27. JRJoe Rogan46:23

       Right.

   28. AHAndrew Huberman46:23

       Right? And is... So it's a reflex for safety. The olfactory system has these two pathways, the olfactory bulb for kind of like, "Oh, is this Black Rifle coffee?" You know? And then there's the smelling salt one that goes to the olf- uh, the accessory olfactory bulb straight to the amygdala, which is associated with threat detection and other things, straight to the piriform cortex, and then to a motor circuit. Boom. Turn the head the other way, get out, exhale. Don't inhale more.

   29. JRJoe Rogan46:45

       Mm.

   30. AHAndrew Huberman46:46

       Aversive. Okay? So, the thing about smell is that, you know, it's got these very hardwired components. Okay? And they're set up for either appetitive, like, "Hmm, let me explore more, sniff in more," versus avers- a- as opposed to aversive behaviors, like, "Get, get me the hell away."
10. 50:33 – 1:07:16

    Combat sports skill: pattern recognition, drilling, and economy of movement

    1. JRJoe Rogan50:33

       That's the thing that's weird about fights. Like, while they're happening, your shins are getting battered, things are getting hurt, and you don't, you don't really feel much.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman50:40

       Yeah, adrenaline.

    3. JRJoe Rogan50:41

       Unless you get kicked hard in the body.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman50:43

       Right. To-

    5. JRJoe Rogan50:43

       The liver shots, doesn't matter how much adrenaline you have pumping, there's something about getting hit in the liver. The liver, when you get hit, like, right here, if you get kicked or punched right here, it's a crazy feeling. It just shuts everything off. It's real weird. Your body just shuts off.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman51:00

       I've seen these, uh, images of, like, uh, somebody just, like, melt. It looks like they melt-

    7. JRJoe Rogan51:04

       Mm-hmm.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman51:04

       ... they're sto- And it looks like they take a few paces and they're, like, ready to counterpunch or something-

    9. JRJoe Rogan51:08

       Yeah.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman51:08

        ... and then it hits slowly. I don't know-

    11. JRJoe Rogan51:10

        Well, some shots go away. So, like, some pain, like if you get punched in the gut, and you're, you know, you're, you're tidying up in anticipation, it still hurts, it hurts, but then you move a little bit and then you're okay again. But the liver is the opposite. The liver, you get hit, and then there's this, like, sharp pain and a delay, and then, ah, everything just shuts off. It's very wei- It's very hard to fake an- that you're fine and move away. You see, like, telltale signs, like one thing guys will do all the time when they get hit in the liver, they drop their right arm down, and they pin it to their body. So maybe they're fighting like this, they're moving, and they whacked in the liver, and you see them do like that and they're still moving, but they can't help it. They have their arm pres- because they know one more shot there and they're fucked. And so they barely can keep a poker face and move around, but there's telltale signs that you see that are just instinctive. You see them just drop their hand. And a lot of times guys will use that to set them up with a head kick. So, like, they'll hit you a bunch of... A good example of that is I- Islam Makhachev and, uh, Alexander Volkanovski. He hit him with a left kick to the body multiple times in that fight and then fired off one to the head and knocked him out.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman52:20

        So it's like they're just hiding. This is like slow, deep pain.

    13. JRJoe Rogan52:22

        You just see the leg come up, and it's very hard to recog- There's a kick called the question mark kick, and it's called a question mark kick because in TaeKwonDo we used to call it a fake front kick roundhouse kick. And what it is is you're lifting the knee up as if you're kicking to the body in a straight line, and then you whip it over and go like that and turn it into a roundhouse kick. Pull up, uh, Glaube Feitosa. Glaube Feitosa was the best at it, so much so that a lot of people started calling it the Brazilian kick, because this guy was a K-1 champion who had the most flexible hips and the craziest question mark kick. And he would literally bring it up and down-

    14. AHAndrew Huberman53:03

        Pshew.

    15. JRJoe Rogan53:03

        ... over the guard. So your hands would be up this, like you think your hands are protecting your head. He would bring it up around, like this, and drop it down on your head and knock people out.

    16. AHAndrew Huberman53:12

        Crazy.

    17. JRJoe Rogan53:12

        It's so wild, 'cause to this day I don't know anybody who can kick as good as him with that kick. Um, like to this day he has the f- the best highlight re- There's a lot of people that are really good at that kick, but Glaube had a very unusual flexibility of his hips. Watch this. Look at this. Well, that's-

    18. AHAndrew Huberman53:31

        Ooh.

    19. JRJoe Rogan53:31

        ... just a regular one, but he's got some of them that go over the... This is some of his highlights. Like look at that. See how he does that? See how it just goes up and around?

    20. AHAndrew Huberman53:40

        It almost looks like a, it almost looks like his knee just kind of-

    21. JRJoe Rogan53:42

        Yeah, watch this, watch this. He's gonna do it in slow motion. Watch the whip of it. Look at that. That's so-

    22. AHAndrew Huberman53:47

        Crazy.

    23. JRJoe Rogan53:48

        ... crazy. So you don't even know it's... Look how he will just whip it down. And it's just, there's a lot of people that are good with that, but he was the best at it. I mean, the best. It was just weird to see how he could do it. It's-

    24. AHAndrew Huberman54:02

        I'm al- I'm always amazed how people can kick standing so closely.

    25. JRJoe Rogan54:06

        Oh, yeah.

    26. AHAndrew Huberman54:07

        Right?

    27. JRJoe Rogan54:07

        G- Well, Glaube was... It's just flexibility of the hips. It's leg dexterity. But the way he could do it, man, it's just, he h- The finest question mark kick of all time. I mean, here he's knocking out Semmy Schilt who was seven feet tall with it. I mean, it was bizarre to watch that kind of flexibility, and also bizarre that no one else seems to have really kinda captured that technique as well as he did. And Glaube used to fight, I mean, this was like K-1. There was, Israel Adesanya had a really good one too and still has a really good one. Look at this one. Whap. But that's a little bit more straightforward. I mean, that's like straight to the chin, and it's a beautiful kick, but the way Glaube used to do it, it would go over the top and down. See that? Like that is so crazy.

    28. AHAndrew Huberman54:51

        Amazing.

    29. JRJoe Rogan54:52

        I can't do that. I've been throwing kicks my whole life. I can't throw it like that.

    30. AHAndrew Huberman54:56

        I'm always watching their eyes-And, uh, these fighters' eyes. And it's amazing to me, like, uh, years ago I saw a Mayweather fight. And, um, it was obviously on pay-per-view, and, um, and he was just getting paid for sure, right? That was his thing. But, um, it was always amazing to me in the slow-mo like where he would slip punches by like centimeters.
11. 1:07:16 – 1:12:45

    Why people enjoy anger: brain stimulation study and social media dynamics

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:07:16

       Yeah. He's enjoying life. Well, people like to be angry. Um, I'm always calling to mind a study... I'll keep this really brief, but there's a famous study by a guy named Robert Heath, who was a neurosurgeon, and he put a bunch of stimulating electrodes into the brain of some humans getting neurosurgery, and he offered them the opportunity to stimulate any area they wanted. And he stimulates some areas, and they'd feel happy or giddy or drunk or sexual arousal, whatever. You know, the one area that all... There were only three subjects, but for human neurosurgery, that's not a terrible subject number. The area that all three of them preferred vastly over the other areas to be stimulated evoked the sense of anger and frustration.

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:07:55

       Really?

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:07:55

       Yeah. People like to be angry.

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:07:57

       Which is why Twitter is so popular.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:07:59

       Yeah.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:08:00

       (laughs)

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:00

       And to some extent Instagram and... I don't know. Does, I don't know-

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:08:02

       Sure, but Twitter is the one the most, because it's mostly just talking, or mostly just text. Instagram is photographs, and s- you could just... I, I don't comment on people's pho- very, very rarely. I might have commented on photos 12 times in my life. You know, just a friend, like, "That's awesome. Way to go." Something nice.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:19

       Mm-hmm.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:08:19

        But, uh, I don't even read comments. But I look at pictures. I go, "Oh, that's cool. Oh, look at that video, that's fucking crazy." I'll give it a little tap, double-tap, give you a little heart, give you a little love and then move on ab- about my day. But in Twitter, I'm constantly just engaging with people's thoughts and arguments and debates. And that's why I think Twitter's the most d- addictive of all the social media platforms, in terms of engagement, but not as addictive as TikTok in terms of, um, it compels you to continue to watch. I wanna keep going with this, but I have to pee so bad. I j- I did the sauna before we got here-

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:50

        Yeah.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:08:50

        ... and I drank 64 liters of water, so.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:52

        Easy. Yeah.

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:08:52

        Or 64, uh, ounces, rather. All right, we'll be right back. We were, uh, at people like to get angry, and you were saying that you, uh, had, uh, another urge to take another sniff of these smelling salts.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:03

        So, so I'm observing something interesting about the smelling salts. Like, it definitely, like, brack, hits hard, and then you feel really good afterwards, and you can feel it in your body.

Episode duration: 3:07:30