Joe Rogan Experience #2203 - Eric Goode & Jeremy McBride

Narrator 0:00 (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. (rock music)

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. Gentlemen, thanks for being here. Please introduce yourselves.

Eric Goode 0:15 Eric Goode.

Jeremy McBride 0:16 Jeremy McBride.

Joe Rogan 0:18 And you got, did you guys both do Tiger King as well?

Jeremy McBride 0:24 Yeah. I mean, um, I kind of came in towards the tail end. I remember meeting you about this.

Joe Rogan 0:28 Keep it th- this close to your face.

Jeremy McBride 0:29 Okay.

Joe Rogan 0:30 Yeah. It's okay.

Jeremy McBride 0:30 Um...

Joe Rogan 0:31 You can scoot your...

Jeremy McBride 0:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:32 It moves and stuff.

Jeremy McBride 0:33 Okay. Yeah. I, um, I met Eric, uh, kind of towards the tail end of filming Tiger King. Um, yeah, that was kind of the first experience I had with you.

Eric Goode 0:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:44 You guys, like, struck-

Jeremy McBride 0:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:45 ... lightning with that, 'cause it came right at the pandemic where everyone's locked at home and everyone was like, "What the fuck is going on with these guys?"

Eric Goode 0:56 Yeah. Yeah, captive cats and captive audience.

Joe Rogan 0:58 And just crazy people. And, um, and then your new show, Chimp Crazy, is, like, basically along the same vein. And it is so odd how nutty these animal people are, these people that have captive animals at their home. It's such a bizarre... Uh, there's, there, I would, I would like to see, uh, like, a psychologist, like, like a clinical psychologist do an examination of what type of personality-

Eric Goode 1:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:26 ... wants to have these enormous wild animals captive in their homes.

Eric Goode 1:34 Yeah. No, for sure. Um, it, it's, um, it's incredible and, of course, that's what interests us because, you know, I'm an animal guy, but, uh, you know, you have to have interesting people to tell a good story.

Joe Rogan 1:48 Well, we are animals. That's, yeah-

Eric Goode 1:50 And we are, and we are animals.

Joe Rogan 1:51 That's the, the weird part about it. We're this, uh, bizarre animal-

Eric Goode 1:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:56 ... that likes to, uh, keep animals in cages.

Jeremy McBride 2:00 (laughs)

Eric Goode 2:00 And some people think we should've been in the same genus as apes-

Joe Rogan 2:04 Yeah.

Eric Goode 2:04 ... you know? But, of course, there's something called religion and dominion. And, of course, you know, we're not animals. We're not apes.

Jeremy McBride 2:13 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:13 Well, we certainly are. I mean, those people, they, they still believe in religion, but, uh, you know, the reality of observable science is also there. So-

Eric Goode 2:22 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:22 ... unfortunately, you know, we're just a weird animal. We're the fucking weirdest ones. But, um, the show Chimp Crazy, I'm, I just finished episode three last night, and we got to number four, and my daughter wanted to watch number four. I'm like, "I don't think I could do it." I go, I was so bummed out after episode three. I was like-

Eric Goode 2:39 What the fuck?

Joe Rogan 2:39 ... "Oh, my god." The, I mean, I don't wanna give away anything for people who haven't watched the series yet. I highly recommend it. It's really fucking good. (Blows out air) But episode three, man, is, it's like, it's like there's something about... F- first of all, this is one of the rare times where I'm fully with PETA. (laughs)

Jeremy McBride 3:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:01 When you're, you know, it's like when you side with PETA on things, it's like you know, like, this is, this gotta be an e- egregious example of something absolutely horrific. And, um, you know, the one situation where the woman who was so drunk, kept the chimp and then it attacked her daughter and the, the whole thing, it's like, uh, at the end of the show, I was like, "Oh, my god. I don't know if I can keep doing this."

Eric Goode 3:24 Yeah. No, it's interesting you mention PETA because I'm not fully aligned with PETA on a number of things. But in this case, I, I am aligned with PETA. Um, but just to touch on PETA-

Joe Rogan 3:38 (laughs)

Eric Goode 3:38 ... you know, you know, I work with reptiles and I try to save turtles and tortoises, which, um, actually are the most endangered group of animals along with primates. Uh, if you-

Joe Rogan 3:49 Turtles and tortoises? Really?

Eric Goode 3:50 If you think about the percentage that are on the brink of extinction, over half of primates are on the brink of extinction and over half are turtles and tortoises.

Joe Rogan 3:58 I had no idea.

Eric Goode 3:59 But where I, uh, am not aligned with PETA is when you have to make a choice between, you know, eradicating a rat that's killing off the last Galapagos tortoises or, or eradicate a mongoose that was introduced that's killing off, you know, an iguana in the Caribbean. I will make that choice. PETA basically views it as the rat has rights just as much as the tortoise.

Joe Rogan 4:22 Mm-hmm.

Eric Goode 4:22 And I'd like to have the tortoise around for future generations. So, um, so I'm not always aligned with PETA, but in this case, yes.

Jeremy McBride 4:29 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 4:30 Well, they, they have a background with the Animal Liberation Organization, which essentially doesn't think that any animals-

Jeremy McBride 4:36 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 4:37 ... should be captive. And I, I do understand their point, but then you have Carl. How do you... How's Carl gonna not have an owner? How's l- how's little Carl over there-

Jeremy McBride 4:51 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:51 ... not gonna be fed?

Eric Goode 4:52 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:52 I mean, do you want French bulldogs to go extinct? 'Cause they will. They can't even breed.

Eric Goode 4:56 If you did a poll and asked how many people at PETA keep dogs, it's like 95%.

Joe Rogan 5:01 Which is crazy.

Eric Goode 5:02 So it's a little hypocritical if they don't want people to have pets.

Joe Rogan 5:05 Well, you know, it's one of those things. It's like the, uh, how it starts and how it's going.

Jeremy McBride 5:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:10 You know? Like what, what did-

Jeremy McBride 5:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:11 ... where did it start from? You know, it start... And I see their po- look, all dogs are a horrible misjustice that's been done to wolves. Like we've-

Jeremy McBride 5:24 Yeah.

Eric Goode 5:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:24 ... somehow or another, we have, uh, become friends with wolves and turned them into these strange things. But the reality of life in 2024 is we have dogs, you know? And, you know, dogs need owners and they, they love you and they... It's a great relationship. Like...

Jeremy McBride 5:41 But it's in their genetics, right?

Joe Rogan 5:42 Yeah.

Jeremy McBride 5:42 I mean, they've been-

Eric Goode 5:43 Thousand, thousand-

Jeremy McBride 5:44 ... genetically modified thousands and thousands of years.

Joe Rogan 5:46 Sure, thousands and thousands of years.

Eric Goode 5:46 We... We-

Joe Rogan 5:46 Right. It's like saying that we-

Jeremy McBride 5:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:47 ... should be going back to chimps.

Jeremy McBride 5:49 Sure.

Joe Rogan 5:49 We should live in the jungle.

Eric Goode 5:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:50 We should, we should live in trees, which is also crazy.

Jeremy McBride 5:53 What is it, Eric? Uh, we are... Chimps are more like chimps than we are human? Is that-

Eric Goode 5:57 Chimps are closer to us than they are gorillas 'cause we are the subfamily of chimpanzees which are called hominins. And yes, chimpanzees are closer...... uh, closely related to us more than any other ape.

Joe Rogan 6:10 Hmm.

Eric Goode 6:10 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:11 Yeah.

Eric Goode 6:12 But it's ... You know, back to what you said a minute ago about making these movies, I just wanna touch on, you know, why we do this, 'cause a lot of people miss the point of Tiger King even. Um-

Joe Rogan 6:23 There's a point?

Eric Goode 6:24 Yeah, there's a point.

Joe Rogan 6:25 I think I missed it. (laughs)

Eric Goode 6:28 (laughs) Well, we were really trying to get Joe Exotic elected president.

Joe Rogan 6:31 (laughs)

Eric Goode 6:31 That was the point. Um, no, but the point was that a lot of docs, man, are great and they, they are really informative, but they preach to the converted, people that already know the issue.

Joe Rogan 6:44 Mm-hmm.

Eric Goode 6:44 You know, like The Cove or ... And they're great.

Joe Rogan 6:46 Right.

Eric Goode 6:47 And, you know, what we wanted to do is preach to people that don't know about the issues, so you had to cast ... You had to get a lot of e- eyeballs on it to make a difference, right?

Joe Rogan 6:55 Right.

Eric Goode 6:56 So that was sort of the goal of both Tiger King and Chimp Crazy-

Joe Rogan 7:00 Well-

Eric Goode 7:00 ... in the end.

Joe Rogan 7:01 This episode is brought to you buy ZipRecruiter. Running a business ain't easy, especially a small business. You have to wear a lot of different hats to keep things running smoothly, and when you have to do everything on top of hiring, it can be a nightmare. Thankfully, there's a place you can go to for help, ZipRecruiter. And even better, you can try it for free right now at ziprecruiter.com/rogan. ZipRecruiter does most of the work for you to make hiring more manageable, and the secret to their success is their powerful matching technology. As soon as you post your job, ZipRecruiter will get to work finding qualified candidates for your role. Experience faster, easier hiring with ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free at this exclusive web address, ziprecruiter.com/rogan. Again, that's ziprecruiter.com/rogan.

Joe Rogan 8:04 ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. Well, I think you definitely did that. I mean, I, I had a joke in one of my earlier comedy specials about Texas and tigers. And I don't know- Hm. ... the, the statistics, but there's nor- more tigers in captivity in Texas than all the wild of the world.

Eric Goode 8:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:19 In private collections. They're not in zoos, in people's yards.

Eric Goode 8:23 Yep.

Joe Rogan 8:23 There's these wacky-

Eric Goode 8:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:24 ... people that have fucking tigers in their backyards. Mm.

Eric Goode 8:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:28 And there's a lot of ... There's thousands of tigers in Texas-

Eric Goode 8:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:33 ... that are in people's yards.

Eric Goode 8:34 Yeah. Yeah, that statistic has been going around for a long time. That may change, um, but yes, they used to say there's more than 3,000 tigers in Texas and there's less than 3,000 tigers in the wild.

Joe Rogan 8:47 Yeah.

Eric Goode 8:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:47 They think there's 5,000 in Texas. (laughs)

Eric Goode 8:49 Wow. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:51 Believe it. Well, you know, there's also other animals that are in Texas that are exotics, like, uh, a scimitar oryx, which is, uh, very rare in the wild-

Eric Goode 9:03 Yep.

Joe Rogan 9:03 ... and is endangered in the wild, but is so common in Texas that you can hunt them.

Eric Goode 9:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:08 And they have them on these enormous ranches, you know, 30,000, 50,000 acres and they're wild, but they live wild. I don't have a problem with that.

Eric Goode 9:16 No.

Joe Rogan 9:16 Like if they could figure out a way to actually ensure that tigers could be kept in a 60,000 acre preserve and, you know, you had adequate funding to where the, the fences were completely monitored every day to make sure that they don't get out and kill people, th- you're talking about a different thing. But what you're mostly getting is small enclosures of tortured animals who are fed cold meat, and that is not what they want, it's not what nature intended them ... Th- they're the cleanup crew. They're everything that has a limp, anything that's slow, they, they keep populations down, they make sure there's not an overpopulation problem of ungulates. That's what tigers do. That's, that's what they do in the wild. And so they're ... All of their instincts, everything, their essence of their being is all stifled by being captive. You know, we were talking about giraffes, that they're the only animal-

Eric Goode 10:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:10 ... that I don't have a problem with at the zoo.

Eric Goode 10:12 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 10:12 Because they're so chill.

Eric Goode 10:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:14 They're so chill, babies feed them. When my daughters were young we'd take them to the zoo and you could hold a piece of lettuce and the giraffe with his giant fucking head that's like as big as this table would come over and gently take the lettuce with their tongue. And we're so confident that they have no aggression towards people that we allow little babies to feed giraffes.

Eric Goode 10:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:35 Giraffes don't seem to have a problem at the zoo. They, they seem to be totally relaxed with it.

Eric Goode 10:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:41 But there's a lot of animals where it's ju- nothing but torture.

Eric Goode 10:45 Yeah, yeah. No, for sure. And I think it's incredible that in the day that we live in, in 2024, that in the consciousness of the c- you know, culture, the ... That we still keep certain animals in zoos that really are miserable, you know?

Joe Rogan 11:00 Yeah.

Eric Goode 11:00 Those are things like, you know, the whales and cetaceans and-

Joe Rogan 11:03 Yes.

Eric Goode 11:04 ... and elephants are not happy in zoos, and-

Joe Rogan 11:07 Monkeys.

Eric Goode 11:07 And most, and most primates-

Joe Rogan 11:09 Yeah.

Eric Goode 11:09 ... are not happy in zoos. Um, and they ... Yes, and I think there are animals that lend themselves more, I like to say, to being in captivity than, than s-

Joe Rogan 11:18 Yes. Like giraffes. I think giraffes is the only example.

Eric Goode 11:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:21 (laughs)

Eric Goode 11:21 Or a, or a giant tortoise maybe?

Joe Rogan 11:24 Yeah, that's a good example too. Solitary animals, yeah.

Eric Goode 11:25 That's a good example too.

Joe Rogan 11:26 Solitary an- Well, e- even at ... Just animals that just don't ... They're just happy that there's no predators.

Eric Goode 11:31 Sure, yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:31 And then they're relaxed.

Eric Goode 11:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:33 But, uh, the last time I went to a zoo, um, my daughters were ... They were y- younger, uh, but not, not like babies, and we were in Denver and, uh, I was there for a gig and, uh, we, we went to the zoo and ... Oh, man. To this day it haunts me.

Eric Goode 11:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:52 There's this primate enclosure and this one monkey was just screaming, just screaming like in agony, like being tortured. Just, "Ah!" Just holding onto the bars and screaming because he was by himself and just ...

12:11 ... the, this tiny little cage-

Eric Goode 12:13 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 12:13 ... and there was nowhere to go and people were just staring at him all day.

Eric Goode 12:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:17 And he was just losing his fucking mind. I'm like, "I don't wanna do this anymore. I can't..." 'Cause I felt super hypocritical because I've, I've always had, like, an issue... 'cause it's animal prison. It's animal prison for animals that did nothing wrong.

Eric Goode 12:28 You know, I was at the, uh, the Singapore Zoo once, which is a good zoo for zoos in Asia. It's one of the best zoos, maybe the best zoo, along with the Taipei Zoo. But there was a polar bear at the Singapore Zoo, you know, this is like 95% humidity, 90 degrees.

Joe Rogan 12:46 (sighs)

Eric Goode 12:46 And it was green 'cause it was covered in a, a film of algae.

Joe Rogan 12:51 Oh.

Eric Goode 12:51 And so the polar bear was literally a green. And you just say to yourself, like, that's just... You know, if you have a zoo in Alaska, you can maybe have a polar bear, but Phoenix, Arizona, Singapore?

Joe Rogan 13:02 But even if you have a zoo in Alaska, polar bears are the one bear that doesn't eat anything but animals. So, polar bears are extraordinarily predatory and they have hunting instincts.

Eric Goode 13:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:15 So all day, they just wanna roam and hunt.

Eric Goode 13:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:17 And, uh, I was... When I used to... I drove limos for a while and, uh, I had this gig once-

Eric Goode 13:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:23 ... in New Hampshire and I was, uh, on my way home and I stopped just because I, I had, I had to do this job where I dropped somebody off. It was a few hours away. And on the way back, I got lunch and I saw this, this zoo. I said, "Let me just check this zoo out." And I went to the zoo. It's this little shitty zoo in like, somewhere in r-... I think it was in Massachusetts. And there was this polar bear in this tiny little enclosure just going in circles. Like he was fucking crazy, just going in circles.

Eric Goode 13:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:52 Tiny little enclosure. And I was like, "What is th-... Why is this okay?" Like, what i-... What, what is this? This is not a life. This is terrible. It's terrible.

Eric Goode 14:04 We, um, with this, this current... There's another project we've been working on for equal time to Chimp Crazy, and you've been spending more time at over 10 years, uh, which loosely covers the exotic animal, uh, wildlife trade, international wildlife trade. And through that, uh, interest, we've had this incredible opportunity to explore all of these, you know, moral truths about American zoos. Um, for us, uh, one thing that was so deeply fascinating, and I think it's something like 242 accredited zoos in this country. Uh, 750 million people visit zoos annually, which is more than the five major sporting events combined.

Joe Rogan 14:43 Oh, wow.

Eric Goode 14:44 The, the way in which zoos function, there's... It's like the 80/20 rule. There's five or ten that contribute the majority of the income that cover most of the, the zoos. Um, and they run like entertainment complexes, uh, like amusement parks.

Joe Rogan 15:01 Okay.

Eric Goode 15:01 And very little money goes back into conservation. Now, there's a lot of zoos that are doing great stuff. And I, I think the, the things that we're learning about is the educational value of zoos for kids is no longer as what they intended it to be. I think there's great things that they do, but there's not... There's nothing proven around, you know, zoos are, uh, educational facilities for animals. Well, what really rocked zoos was the film Blackfish.

Joe Rogan 15:25 Blackfish, yeah.

Eric Goode 15:26 And they, and they suddenly went, "Wait a minute."

Joe Rogan 15:27 Yeah.

Eric Goode 15:27 "The public doesn't like us?" And they started putting into effect all these kind of new programs for animal welfare, and particularly for bears, like polar bears, like what you just mentioned. And they have a new word, it's not so new anymore, called enrichment, which means that you give a bear something to do so it doesn't do what you were just saying. You put their food in ice so they have to w- work to get it out. You put their food in a ball. You make them have to do things.

Joe Rogan 15:53 Mm.

Eric Goode 15:53 But, you know, that was the big shakeup for zoos in terms of animal welfare and, and now, you know, of course, they're... It's still evolving and zoos are scared when they see Tiger King and even Chimp Crazy. But-

Joe Rogan 16:06 But Joe's daughter's grandkids will, will still see orcas at SeaWorld.

Eric Goode 16:11 Do you think so?

Joe Rogan 16:12 Yeah. I mean, 'cause the, the-

Eric Goode 16:13 Well, they live a long time. That's-

Joe Rogan 16:14 They live a long time and they, they... Sea World, you know-

Eric Goode 16:16 Maybe not granddaughters, but... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:17 Oh, okay. But I, I say it more, um...

Eric Goode 16:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:20 I'm, you know... I, uh, I have little boys. I have a four-year-old and a one-year-old, and I think it's particularly interesting to kind of go through this experience 'cause they're obsessed with animals, and you're, you're kind of educating them on, um, these kind of moral issues surrounding animals. The anthropomorphic characters that are created to describe the feelings and where they should live and how they should feel. And kids relate with them in, in some form of a bridge to humanity, I, I believe. And we, um... You know, you ask this fundamental question when you go to the zoo, "Hey, where did all the animals come from?" No one really begs to think that question.

Eric Goode 16:54 Well, that... He's... Where he's going right now is the... Sort of a big part of our, uh, next documentary, which is about, you know, the illegal animal trade-

Joe Rogan 17:02 Yeah.

Eric Goode 17:02 ... but also zoos were complicit in that, uh, for a very long time. Maybe still.

Joe Rogan 17:07 Mm.

Eric Goode 17:07 So, anyway, sort of going onto another-

Joe Rogan 17:08 Yeah, no, sorry. I'm-

Eric Goode 17:09 ... another-

Joe Rogan 17:09 But the zoo thing-

Eric Goode 17:10 Who knows?

Joe Rogan 17:10 I mean, you're, you're into the... I, I, I... You get emotional on this and I, I, I, um, I... What's really cool about the, this kind of medium that we're in, you know, we have access to all these, all this information and all these people over large decades of, of work in conservation in zoos and PETA and legislation laws. It's really encoura-... I, I just love the idea of synthesizing this information to a point in today's context which is, yeah, it's... When you go to a zoo, no one seems to ask where the animals comes from. Right.

Eric Goode 17:39 You know, it's, it's, it is a very, you know, simple idea that many people miss the point of when they go there. Now, I, I, I'm not anti-zoo totally either, y- you know, and I have no real position or credibility to also suggest that. But I do think... I'm, I'm interested in asking those questions-

Joe Rogan 17:54 Yeah.

Eric Goode 17:55 ... of what we can do to m- make these institutions better.

Joe Rogan 17:58 Yeah. I mean, for sure they should be bigger. I mean, there should be a size requirement. There should be... You should have to have a certain amount of acres for each individual species so that they don't... Like we were talking about the chimp enclosure at the LA Zoo, they bite each other's fingers off and...

18:15 ... they need space, you know? They need space and they need activities, and ideally what we should do is emulate their wild existence. But th- then you have this moral question of, are we, are we gonna let goats in, in, into the tiger cage and just let them sort it out? Because that's really what they want.

Eric Goode 18:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:35 You know? What lions want to do is chase down a wildebeest and eat it.

Eric Goode 18:39 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:39 And instead, what we do is we slide a tray underneath their cage, and that's torture for them. It really is.

Eric Goode 18:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:47 It's torture for them to have an enclosed space where it's small. It's torture for them to not be able to express their natural instincts. I mean, there's, it's one thing if you're talking about something like the thylacine, right? Where they, they kept them in captivity and the, the last known survivors, and you had this thing and, like, "Wow, now we have video of this thing," and now it doesn't exist anymore.

Eric Goode 19:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:08 So the zoos were, like, the last hope to try to keep this thing from going ex- extinct. And it may not be extinct. There's a lot of-

Narrator 19:14 Yeah, seed banks.

Eric Goode 19:15 Yeah, the Tasmanian tiger. Yeah.

Narrator 19:16 Yeah.

Eric Goode 19:16 That was eerie footage of the last ones.

Joe Rogan 19:19 Yeah. They, they think there might actually be living specimens that are alive and, you know, there's-

Narrator 19:25 Well, in this state, they're bringing them back

Eric Goode 19:27 I know you know Forrest Gallant.

Joe Rogan 19:28 Yeah.

Narrator 19:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:28 Yeah, I was just about to bring up Forrest.

Eric Goode 19:29 And, and I also have colleagues that have gone looking for thylacines in the, uh, the highlands of New Guinea. So far, yeah, people anecdotally say, "Yes, there might be a thylacine."

Joe Rogan 19:38 Right.

Narrator 19:39 Yeah.

Eric Goode 19:39 Um, but I ... It's unlikely, but there might be, but yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:42 Well, they're very hard to fi- ... I mean, like, try finding a wolverine.

Eric Goode 19:46 (laughs)

Narrator 19:46 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:46 You know, there's ... Wolverine populations are pretty healthy-

Eric Goode 19:48 Yeah.

Narrator 19:48 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:48 ... but good, good luck finding one.

Eric Goode 19:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:50 They're very, very, very difficult to find.

Eric Goode 19:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:52 Unless you spend an enormous amount of time alone in the bush.

Eric Goode 19:55 Yeah. Good point.

Narrator 19:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:56 Yeah. So ... And then you're dealing with thylacines, you're dealing with a very unpopulated area that's extremely hostile to people.

Eric Goode 20:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:04 But there are anecdotal sightings, and hopefully that thing does exist and I would b- I would love for Forrest to be the guy who finds it, because he's spent so much time-

Narrator 20:12 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:12 ... looking for it. But other than a dying species, I can't see a good argument for keeping these things.

Eric Goode 20:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:21 It used to be that a zoo existed before there was videos, right? So if you wanted to find out about a lion, you know, the only way a child could see a lion-

Eric Goode 20:32 Sure.

Joe Rogan 20:32 ... was to go to the zoo and go, "Oh my God, that's a lion. Look at that. Look at that lion. Oh."

Eric Goode 20:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:37 And the kids are ... And it is educational for children.

Eric Goode 20:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:39 But at what cost and is there ... are there better resources now? And I think video is a much better resource. It's much better to see lions in the wild.

Eric Goode 20:49 Yeah. No, no. I mean, of course. Zoos were originally created just ... It was, like, good civic planning, you know, 150, 200 years ago, like, you know, to have a park, a zoo, a library when you're-

Joe Rogan 21:00 Mm-hmm.

Eric Goode 21:00 ... building a city.

Joe Rogan 21:01 Right.

Eric Goode 21:01 So they were really just built as, you know ... A good city needs to have a zoo, it's, it's entertainment, and they weren't really designed to be, you know ... have anything to do with conservation or-

Joe Rogan 21:13 Right.

Eric Goode 21:13 ... anything to do with animal welfare. Um, but yeah. Today, like you mentioned, the oryx here in Texas, you know, there are species that have either gone what we call biologically extinct, which means that one animal can't find another, they're virtually extinct, or they are extinct in the wild. And zoos may offer some hope for those animals where they can put them into what's called assurance colonies and try to maintain, uh, you know, genetically diverse groups, uh, in a zoo for the day that one day you could return it to the wild.

Joe Rogan 21:46 Right.

Eric Goode 21:46 You know. There's maybe a reason to have animals in captivity.

Joe Rogan 21:49 How much success has there been in returning animals to the wild, though?

Eric Goode 21:54 Well, you know, where we live in Cali-

Narrator 21:56 You just did. You just did it with, um, the eastern box turtle in New Jersey.

Eric Goode 21:59 No, no, no. Back, back to ... Uh, like-

Narrator 22:01 Oh, rewilding?

Eric Goode 22:01 The example he's talking about is like-

Narrator 22:03 Oh, yeah. Rewilding?

Joe Rogan 22:03 Yeah.

Eric Goode 22:03 ... California condors.

Narrator 22:04 Okay.

Eric Goode 22:04 California condors.

Narrator 22:05 I see.

Eric Goode 22:05 Or black-footed ferrets.

Narrator 22:07 I see.

Eric Goode 22:07 Or animals that, you know, uh, I mean, the, the ... whatever it's called. There's a, uh, there's a endemic horse that they've, uh, done some work with. But yeah. It's, uh, uh, you know, f- much less than it should be, putting animals back into the wild that went extinct or went vi- virtually extinct. Much less than it should be.

Joe Rogan 22:26 Yeah. It should ... I mean, it should be a priority, um, if you-

Eric Goode 22:31 For sure.

Joe Rogan 22:31 ... s- with certain animals spec- specifically.

Eric Goode 22:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:34 You know?

Eric Goode 22:36 I'm trying to think of a really good success story of an animal that went back into the wild and it was really successful. California condors, the problem is they've reintroduced them into the Great- Grand Canyon and Arizona. There was ... When I was young in the '70s, there was maybe 28 of them left in the wild. They brought them into captivity. Today, there's probably, you know, hundreds in the wild, but at a very expensive price tag, because what made them go extinct in th- that case was the lead i- bullets that, you know, kill a deer. The condor would eat the deer and then die from the lead. Um, so the condors, you know, that ... to use that example, there's just a lot of, uh, management to keep them alive in the wild.

Joe Rogan 23:16 I think there's some dispute about that.

Eric Goode 23:18 About which part?

Joe Rogan 23:19 About whether or not it's the lead from the bullets that was killing them. I'm s-

Eric Goode 23:23 I mean, that's what they say, but maybe ...

Joe Rogan 23:24 Yeah. I was reading something recently about that, that it just doesn't, doesn't make sense, doesn't a- attribute to the, the ... If you think about the number of animals that are shot with a bullet that aren't recovered, it's so small.

Eric Goode 23:37 Interesting. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:38 You know, the ... It's ... It doesn't make sense that it would be enough to kill off these animals and there's probably some other factors that we are not considering.

Narrator 23:47 Mm-hmm.

Eric Goode 23:48 I believe that, because a condor in a day (laughs) ... Not to go off the track-

Narrator 23:52 Yeah.

Eric Goode 23:52 ... on the condor, but a condor in a day can travel 400 miles in the thermals-

Joe Rogan 23:56 Mm-hmm.

Eric Goode 23:56 ... looking for, you know, a carcass.

Joe Rogan 23:58 Right.

Eric Goode 23:58 And I would suspect that, you know, th- the fact that there's just less carcasses out there-

Joe Rogan 24:04 Right, that's what I was gonna say.

Eric Goode 24:04 ... might be part of it, not lead-

Joe Rogan 24:05 I think that's the argument.

Eric Goode 24:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:07 I think the argument is there's less predators-

Eric Goode 24:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:09 ... and there's less prey.

Eric Goode 24:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:10 Right? So you have a, a decr- ... You know, so like California, for example, like, the ... You have a, a fairly small deer population.... because you have so many animals that kill deer. Right? So you have California has a lot of coyotes and California has a lot of mountain lions. And there's a lot of people where I used to live, uh, in the hills that did not like coyotes.

Eric Goode 24:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:36 I'm like, "Do you like rats?"

Eric Goode 24:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:37 "Okay."

24:38 (laughs)

24:38 "Well, if you don't like rats, you should like coyotes." Yeah. Don't leave your dog outside-

Eric Goode 24:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:42 ... 'cause your dog's gonna get, you know... And my daughter's puppy got killed by a coyote and, uh, I've had chickens killed by coyotes.

Eric Goode 24:49 But ranchers hate coyotes more than anything.

Joe Rogan 24:52 And they kill fawns. They, they kill-

Eric Goode 24:54 They hate them.

Joe Rogan 24:54 Yeah, they kill, uh, baby cows. They kill baby everything. That's just what they do and that's their job, you know? But there's an ecosystem and that's, that's a part of the ecosystem and what's really unnatural is ranching. Okay?

25:07 (laughs)

Eric Goode 25:07 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 25:07 (laughs)

25:07 (laughs)

25:07 (laughs)

Eric Goode 25:07 But there, forever, forever, there was a bounty on coyotes-

Joe Rogan 25:11 Yeah.

Eric Goode 25:11 ... where if you brought in two ears, you got like a buck.

Joe Rogan 25:14 Mm-hmm.

Eric Goode 25:15 And people would bring in 100 sets of ears and get $100. I mean, they were vilified. When I grew up in-

Joe Rogan 25:22 Sure.

Eric Goode 25:22 ... California, the ranchers next to us, which were sheep ranchers 'cause sheep are dumb and coyotes can get sheep easier than, you know, calves.

Joe Rogan 25:29 Mm-hmm.

Eric Goode 25:30 They would trap the coyote with those, you know, those horrible traps. They'd pour gasoline on them, they'd light them on fire and let them run off burning. I mean, they, they hate coyotes.

Joe Rogan 25:39 They do.

Eric Goode 25:40 Which is really unfair. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 25:41 (laughs)

Eric Goode 25:41 They do.

Joe Rogan 25:41 Well, they're cool, you know? They're just not cool if they eat your cat, you know?

Eric Goode 25:45 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 25:45 Yeah.

25:45 But they're a fascinating animal. I mean, I-

25:48 Yeah.

25:48 ... I remember when I first saw them, I moved to California in '94 and I was staying at a... Do you know what the Oakwood Gardens are? It's like those pre-

25:56 Hmm.

25:56 They're, they're pre-furnished apartments that you just rent, like people that are-

Eric Goode 25:59 Right.

Joe Rogan 25:59 ... sort of transient, just moving to-

26:01 Oh, yeah. Okay.

26:01 They allow you to, like, have a place before you get a place.

26:03 Like corporate apartment, yeah.

Eric Goode 26:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:04 And, uh, I was driving... So it was in Burbank, and I was driving down the street and I was like, "Who are these fucking dogs?"

Eric Goode 26:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:11 Like, "What is going on? What are these dogs running around?" And then I, I drove up, I... I had never seen a coyote before.

Eric Goode 26:17 Oh, wow.

Joe Rogan 26:17 I was like, "That's a coyote?"

Eric Goode 26:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:18 "Oh my God, there's coyotes on the streets?"

Eric Goode 26:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:21 And that was pretty rare then. But 30 years later, it became insanely common. Uh, I would rarely go... I re- lived in a fairly rural area where I lived in California. I lived about an hour outside the city and I had a lot of acres and it was, it was cool to live out there, but you experience a lot of wildlife. And I saw coyotes almost every day.

Eric Goode 26:41 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:42 Mm-hmm.

26:42 Almost every day.

Eric Goode 26:43 Yeah, they look like a mangy, motley, skinny dog.

Joe Rogan 26:46 That's right.

26:46 Yeah, but they're cool. There's something cool about coyotes.

Eric Goode 26:49 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:49 But the reality of coyotes, uh, I don't know if you know, uh, why they're so successful, but one of the reasons why is because they're the only... So red wolves can interbreed with coyotes and that you get the coywolf, but gray wolves do not breed with coyotes. They just kill them. And so because the gray wolf, which lived in California and lived all over the, the West Coast, was the predominant predator, cal- c- the, the coyotes had to develop a way of surviving. And the adaptation was when they call out, when they yell out in the night and they're trying to do roll call and figure out how many guys are around-

27:28 (laughs)

27:28 ... when one is missing, the female will have a change to her reproductive system where she will develop more pups and then they will-

27:36 Wow.

27:36 ... expand their territory. So because they were persecuted by wolves, they expanded their territory. So now when people came in and started killing off the wolves, which they did successfully, but they were never able to kill off coyotes because of this trait.

27:50 Hmm.

27:51 So coyotes are now in every single city in the United States.

Eric Goode 27:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:56 This was not the case just 30 years ago.

Eric Goode 27:58 They're what we call... There's a word for that. It's called subsidized predators, and these are animals that do better around man. And, and crows are one of those animals. Raccoons are one of them, coyotes, and they're weirdly... Can do, thrive and do better around, you know, human activity-

Joe Rogan 28:16 Yeah.

Eric Goode 28:16 ... than a lot of other animals. And so coyotes are one of those.

Joe Rogan 28:19 Because of garbage.

28:20 Yeah.

Eric Goode 28:20 'Cause of garbage.

Joe Rogan 28:21 Garbage and pets.

Eric Goode 28:22 'Cause of water. We bring in-

Joe Rogan 28:23 Right.

Eric Goode 28:23 ... water in, in arid areas. And so they're highly adaptable, um, c- creature.

Joe Rogan 28:29 Yeah.

Eric Goode 28:29 And, and just for the record, I do like coyotes and I listen to them almost every night having a tailgate party behind my house.

Joe Rogan 28:36 (laughs)

28:37 They're cool.

Eric Goode 28:38 They're cool.

Joe Rogan 28:38 They're interesting.

Eric Goode 28:39 And they, they make the eeriest noise together. They, they ca- they caught something.

Joe Rogan 28:42 Yeah. But you know, I'm sure you've seen that video from Woodland Hills where this man was, uh, unloading his car and a coyote came and snatched his toddler, like, right in front of him.

28:51 Oh, damn.

Eric Goode 28:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:51 It's hard. They're fucking predators, right?

Eric Goode 28:53 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:53 Yeah.

28:53 And you have to be careful. Little things and little people and animals will get eaten by them, and that is what they do.

Eric Goode 28:59 Like dingoes in Australia do that.

Joe Rogan 29:01 Yeah.

29:01 Right, right.

Eric Goode 29:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:02 << Dingo ate my body >>

29:03 (laughs)

Eric Goode 29:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:04 Um, there's... You know, there's no doubt that we live in complex ecosystems and we do not like the idea of them. We've developed these bizarre establishments called cities.

Eric Goode 29:17 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:17 And in these cities, we have removed ourselves from nature. And, you know, if you go to the mountains of Colorado, people are well aware of mountain lions. They're well aware of bears. They have to lock their garbage up. They have to-

29:28 Mm-hmm.

29:28 They have, like, a neighborhood email list where they talk about, like, bears broke into this guy's car and everybody's on the look- But they, they understand they're living in this system.

Eric Goode 29:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:37 They're living in this ecosystem.

Eric Goode 29:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:39 Most people in the United States that live in urban areas have no idea that they're in an ecosystem 'cause we've essentially done some very bizarre stuff and isolated ourselves from nature.

29:51 Mm-hmm.

Eric Goode 29:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:52 Which is one of the reasons why we have this strange idea that we are not animals and that we are not a part of nature.

Eric Goode 29:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:59 You know, it's, it's just weird. It's... We're, we're fucking weird. We're weird in our justifications. We're weird in what we allow ourselves to do.

Eric Goode 30:09 Yeah, that's... Back, back to the chimpanzees, that was one of the things that I just couldn't ever, you know... I c- I couldn't ever connect with this woman, Tanya, that kept this chimp and tried to explain to her...... you know, that we are chimps, you know, effectively. And, you know, and she just, uh, uh, you know, took the page out of, uh, the, uh, you know, Genesis where she just said, uh, you know, "I am not, you know, we're not animals. This is an animal and I can own it like property." Anyway, that was just one of the things I, uh... She just never really u- fully understood.

Joe Rogan 30:45 Well, to be kind, she's not bright. You know, she's not a bright woman, not a well-read woman, you know, unfortunately. And this seems to be part of the, the theme of all these folks, which is w- weird, you know. And then you got the one guy in Tiger King that's essentially running like a little sex cult, right? That guy.

Eric Goode 31:06 Doc Antle.

Joe Rogan 31:06 Yeah. And then you've got, uh, the Tiger King himself.

Eric Goode 31:10 Joe.

Joe Rogan 31:10 You got Joe Exotic who is also kind of- (laughs)

Eric Goode 31:13 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:14 ... ru- running a strange little sex cult. But, you know, he's just got all this personality and he's so interesting and fascinating. And, uh-

Eric Goode 31:24 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:24 ... if he wasn't in jail, it's really unfortunate, you know, because if he wasn't in jail, he would, uh... He'd be a very popular person.

31:30 He hasn't even seen the show-

Eric Goode 31:31 Can you, can you imagine-

Joe Rogan 31:33 ... which is amazing.

Eric Goode 31:33 ... if he was... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:34 Well, he's trying to get D- Donald Trump to, to, uh, exonerate him and he... And he... And pardon him. I mean, he was, uh, constantly... A- after I talked about Tiger King-

31:45 Oh, sure. Yeah.

31:46 ... I get messages from that guy. I don't know how he's giving me messages. I'm shoo- I'm assuming it's someone who works for him.

Eric Goode 31:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:51 But I get messages all the time, like, "Y- you've gotta help get him out. Put him on your podcast, do this, do that." Like...

31:57 Well, he also has communication in jail. He gets, uh... Somehow he's able to get a phone. He's doing video calls and stuff.

32:04 Well, you know how it goes. (laughs)

32:05 Yeah. Yeah. (laughs)

Eric Goode 32:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 32:06 You know? (laughs)

Eric Goode 32:06 Um-

Joe Rogan 32:07 But, but there was a moment, there was a moment, um, when we were filming, uh, this kind of like second installment of Tiger King where we covered this, this pardon, the presidential pardon. There's a real shot where Joe was actually on a list supposedly-

Eric Goode 32:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:23 ... that Trump was gonna like, uh, uh, you know, kind of, uh... But-

32:25 Hilarious.

32:26 It's hilarious.

Eric Goode 32:27 Hilarious.

Joe Rogan 32:27 So, I don't remember exactly what the specifics of his, uh, his accusation. So was he caught trying to hire someone to whack that lady?

Eric Goode 32:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:39 He wa- so he was.

32:40 Twice. Yeah.

Eric Goode 32:41 Yeah. Two counts.

Joe Rogan 32:41 And that lady, is there any truth to this idea that she whacked her husband?

Eric Goode 32:48 Carole Baskin. Um, there's a lot of circumstantial... I would say maybe evidence, but there's... It, it, it's sort of... Who else?

Joe Rogan 32:59 It's not clean.

Eric Goode 33:00 Who else? And, and it was either... It feels as if it was her or members of her family and they were the only ones to gain. And so... Yeah. There's a big-

Joe Rogan 33:11 And what a great way to dispose of a body.

Eric Goode 33:13 Uh-huh. I don't... I mean, I don't know how she disposed of the body. It's nice that-

Joe Rogan 33:17 Well, you have meat grinders on premises.

33:19 (laughs) You like the meat grinder? Yeah.

Eric Goode 33:20 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:20 And you have enormous predators-

Eric Goode 33:22 You know, but-

Joe Rogan 33:22 ... on premises. And you feed 'em a tiger.

33:24 I think that... Don't you... Don't you think... The only, the only thing I'd say, Eric, is the, um, the circumstances surrounding the change in the will. I mean, uh, who, who-

33:31 Right.

33:31 ... who alters it to account for disappearance?

Eric Goode 33:33 To... Upon my disappearance, yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:34 Yeah, it's a very, very strange-

Eric Goode 33:35 No one... No one says that, yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:36 ... strange thing.

33:36 And isn't there like a disparity in the handwriting as well?

33:39 Yeah, we did handwriting experts.

Eric Goode 33:40 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:40 We did the entire thing, um-

Eric Goode 33:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:42 ... to prove otherwise. So-

33:43 It's also just when she talks about it.

Eric Goode 33:47 You know, j-

Joe Rogan 33:47 It's just... (laughs)

Eric Goode 33:47 But Joe... Back to, back to Joe, uh, Joe Exotic, you know, I was on the phone with him a lot up until he was convicted, you know, from prison. And he just was convinced he was gonna be exonerated and, you know, not convicted. And they offered him, the feds offered him a deal, uh, which was something like six or seven years, you know. You can plea or you can go to court.

Joe Rogan 34:11 He'd probably be out by now.

34:12 Yeah.

Eric Goode 34:12 I was just gonna say, he'd be out now. And so he was so convinced that he was gonna win, which is so delusional.

Joe Rogan 34:18 Oh.

Eric Goode 34:19 Um, but, yeah, poor Joe would be out right now had he made that deal.

Joe Rogan 34:22 By the way, how crazy is that? That you could plot to kill somebody and they let you out in four years.

Eric Goode 34:26 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 34:27 Like you... I know you've been locked up with a bunch of murderers and thieves, but, uh, I'm sure you're a better person now. (laughs)

Eric Goode 34:31 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 34:32 Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's plot, it's plot and then intent.

34:35 You've learned.

34:35 You know, it's, uh, paying someone to go do something.

34:37 Right, right.

34:38 Uh-

34:38 There's quite a few steps involved.

34:40 Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Goode 34:40 But yes, Joe is now pro-Trump again. He was pro-Biden when Trump, Trump didn't-

Joe Rogan 34:45 Was he?

34:45 Yeah.

34:45 (laughs) Because he was trying to get Biden to pardon him.

34:47 (laughs) Yeah, yeah.

Eric Goode 34:48 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:48 They wouldn't touch that with a ten-foot pole, but Trump might.

Eric Goode 34:50 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:51 Especially this time around.

Eric Goode 34:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:52 Just for funsies.

Eric Goode 34:53 Well, let's hope Tania-

Joe Rogan 34:54 (laughs)

Eric Goode 34:54 Let's hope Tania doesn't go to prison. I don't wish that on Tania.

Joe Rogan 34:57 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 34:58 Um, I haven't seen episode four, so I don't know. Uh, but when you guys were filming, um, again, spoiler alert. Please, if you're watching the series, stop right now and scoot ahead by a few minutes. Um, when they found that Tonka was in the basement, and when, when I saw their film... When you guys were filming it-

35:16 Mm-hmm.

Eric Goode 35:16 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:16 ... I was like, "Jesus Christ, this lady is so crazy. She's showing everybody."

Eric Goode 35:20 I know.

Joe Rogan 35:21 And she's... And she's... She has...

Eric Goode 35:25 I know.

Joe Rogan 35:25 With, with, like all due respect, she's, she just does not seem like a smart person. And she's almost like, like if you gave her an IQ test-

Eric Goode 35:34 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 35:35 ... like, and then gave a chimp an IQ test, it'd be a toss-up.

Eric Goode 35:38 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 35:39 You know? I mean, I think that's part of the problem.

35:41 (laughs)

35:41 'cause I don't think this lady understands the consequences of what she's doing, just like she doesn't understand how crazy her eyelashes look.

Eric Goode 35:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 35:48 You know, like all of it is just... There's-

35:50 Yeah.

35:50 There's some fuses that are missing, some wires that aren't connected.

Eric Goode 35:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:53 And then because of the fact that at one point in time at least it was legal for her to do what she was doing and they, they've become accustomed to being able to ha-... And then their identity revolves around they're the person that has all the monkeys and all the chimpanzees. It was just fucking weird.

Eric Goode 36:12 Well, it's still legal, uh, to be... It's, it's still legal.

Joe Rogan 36:15 It is still... I thought they changed it.

36:16 No, there's no federal law, uh, preventing ownership of chimpanzees and-

36:19 Jesus Christ, you can own a fucking chimp still?

36:21 Right. There's 20 or so states legally you can do it.

36:24 Oh, my God. I thought-

36:25 Uh, Missouri is one of them.

36:26 Oh, my God.

36:27 But, you know, background. We, um, we spent about four years making this documentary series. Um-

36:34 First of all, how did you start?

36:36 ... how do you find out about these people?

Eric Goode 36:37 I... Yeah, go ahead. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 36:39 (laughs)

36:39 How do you get... After Tiger King, how do you get anybody to talk to you on camera?

Eric Goode 36:43 (laughs) I've known a l- I've known a lot of animal people, Joe. But I did not know about monkey moms. And along the course of, you know, making Tiger King, I started filming some monkey moms and I... You know what I mean? Like, as you see in Chimp Crazy, you just can't make them up. And so after Tiger King, um, I just thought, "You know, let's scratch the surface. Let's check into these monkey moms again." Um, yeah. And so, you know, i- it's these women that dress up their monkeys like dolls, like JonBenét Ramsey, like a little-

Joe Rogan 37:15 Right.

Eric Goode 37:15 ... pageant doll, and they want them to be kids.

Joe Rogan 37:19 Forever.

Eric Goode 37:19 And they seem to have the same pathology over and over and over. Uh, there's a lot of monkey moms out there that we did not film, and they have annually something called a Monkey Ball, where they all come together with their monkeys. Anyway, we discovered them in the course of making Tiger King and, um, yeah. Well... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:38 (laughs) My grandmother had a monkey.

Eric Goode 37:39 ... like casting. Yeah. Uh-huh. We hear the story a lot.

Joe Rogan 37:40 We heard the story a lot.

37:40 My grandmother had a monkey-

37:41 Yeah, we hear the story a lot.

37:42 ... that she, she kept in the attic.

Eric Goode 37:44 Really?

Joe Rogan 37:45 Monkey's name was Chi-Chi, and Chi-Chi used to eat gum. So you give Chi-Chi a piece of gum, Chi-Chi would unwrap the gum and put the gum in his mouth or her mouth, I don't remember if it was a boy or girl.

Eric Goode 37:53 Wow. Do you know what kind of monkey?

Joe Rogan 37:55 I do not.

Eric Goode 37:55 Okay.

Joe Rogan 37:55 I was very small.

Eric Goode 37:56 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:57 I was very young at the time and I remember she had to get rid of it 'cause it bit my cousin.

Eric Goode 38:01 Yeah. Well, that's what happens.

Joe Rogan 38:02 Yeah.

Eric Goode 38:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:03 Yeah. It... But Chi-Chi couldn't be around anybody other than my grandmother.

Eric Goode 38:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:07 My grandmother was very eccentric.

Eric Goode 38:09 Yeah. And they're, and they're t- they're territorially... And they... Uh, territorial and they're protective of their owner.

Joe Rogan 38:13 Mm-hmm.

Eric Goode 38:14 So, um, you know, when I was young in the '70s... In '60s, '70s, '80s, you could buy a monkey in virtually any pet store across the United States.

Joe Rogan 38:22 Oh my God.

Eric Goode 38:22 And thank God people realized, like your grandmother, they're not good pets.

Joe Rogan 38:26 (laughs) You could buy them in the newspaper.

Eric Goode 38:27 Yeah, they're not good pets and they-

Joe Rogan 38:28 I think my grandmother, after her kids were grown, she just decided she wanted a kid forever. You know?

Eric Goode 38:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:34 If I had to guess.

Eric Goode 38:35 Wow.

Joe Rogan 38:36 Yeah. If I had to guess.

Eric Goode 38:38 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:38 That's our, that's our kind of consensus on a lot of it.

38:40 Yeah. Also a kid that doesn't talk back.

Eric Goode 38:42 Yeah, yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:44 (laughs)

Eric Goode 38:44 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:44 It's a great, um, book you-

38:45 Get you.

38:45 The good book you'd love is by this guy who had a store in New York, Henry Treflik, uh, that... It's called They Don't Talk Back.

38:51 Mm.

38:52 Um, and it's these kind of chronicles of his experiences-

Eric Goode 38:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:56 ... you know, through last... You know, it was big 40s to the 70s.

Eric Goode 38:57 This was a big a- animal... Uh, exotic animal dealership that existed up until the '70s in New York City, but they had everything. Chimps, gorillas, uh, elephants, and they sold stuff to the private sector and zoos. But, yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:10 I mean, you could w- you could walk into a Woolworth, right? And, um, and buy monkeys.

Eric Goode 39:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:14 They still, to this day, catch people with large animals in their apartments in New York City.

39:19 Yeah.

39:19 Like wasn't there one real recently where a guy had a large reptile?

39:24 Venomous snakes, yeah.

39:25 Right? Was it snakes?

39:25 Is that... The venomous snake bite, Eric? I don't remember.

39:28 Some guy... Well, there's one... That one guy, I think it was in Harlem, who had a tiger in his house.

Eric Goode 39:33 That's could... Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:34 And that there's a crazy image of the cops going up the fire escape-

Eric Goode 39:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:37 ... and the tiger's in the window.

Eric Goode 39:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:39 And you see the tiger bearing its fangs in the window.

Eric Goode 39:41 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:42 (laughs)

39:42 That glass is that fucking thin, man. (laughs) That, that, that is so crazy.

Eric Goode 39:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:47 (laughs)

39:48 This thing is trapped in this like regular apartment with regular glass.

Eric Goode 39:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:52 Mm-hmm.

Eric Goode 39:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:53 Like at any moment in t- The, the only thing keeping that thing out is it doesn't know that it could just smash that and get on that fire escape and just go run through the streets.

Eric Goode 40:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:02 It just...

Eric Goode 40:02 Yeah, yeah. Crazy, crazy.

Joe Rogan 40:03 Yeah, it's crazy.

Eric Goode 40:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:05 But-

40:05 The bizarre thing is that there's humans that want those. They want those.

Eric Goode 40:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:11 I mean...

Eric Goode 40:11 Yeah. I mean, the tiger thing is more of like kind of a macho thing, I think, if I had to, you know-

Joe Rogan 40:18 Well, what about Carole then? She's a woman.

Eric Goode 40:20 Yeah, she's kind of an anom- You know, it's funny, I, I, I-

Joe Rogan 40:22 But she liked the, the s- the lesser known cats, right?

Eric Goode 40:24 I interviewed Tippi Hedren, uh, you know, in the course of doing all of this and her, you know, Xanadu, it's called Shambala with all of her cats, you know. And I know you've talked about this, about Melanie Griffith growing up with, uh, lions.

Joe Rogan 40:38 That crazy movie Roar.

Eric Goode 40:40 Yeah. Oh, and that movie Roar.

Joe Rogan 40:41 That photograph is, uh, fantastic.

Eric Goode 40:43 Oh my God, that movie Roar. But yeah, when I interviewed Tippi Hedren literally on her property in California, she lives with all these tigers and lions. She built a museum for herself of... Like, so she's got her own museum, The Tippi Hedren Museum, where I interviewed her. Um, but yeah, there are some women, Tippi Hedren, Carole Baskin, but it's... You know, generally-

Joe Rogan 41:04 It's mostly a macho thing.

Eric Goode 41:05 Generally speaking, I think it's more men, yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:07 Well, I guarantee if you go through the Texas private collections, there's a bunch of good old boys.

Eric Goode 41:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:13 You know?

Eric Goode 41:13 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 41:13 Believe that?

41:14 Probably.

Eric Goode 41:15 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:15 You know.

Eric Goode 41:16 But you've got-

Joe Rogan 41:16 Got some oil money.

41:17 (laughs)

Eric Goode 41:17 You've got, you've got canned ranches in Texas.

Joe Rogan 41:19 There's a lot of those.

Eric Goode 41:20 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:20 Yeah.

41:20 There's a lot of, a lot of canned ranches, which is very odd. And some of them are fairly small, like a couple hundred acres-

Eric Goode 41:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:27 ... and they keep animals there.

Eric Goode 41:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:29 It's... Uh, in my mind what that is, is agriculture. Okay? You... It's, it's just you're doing a different form of, uh, of deer agriculture. You're not really hunting. You know?

Eric Goode 41:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:40 Hunting to me is you go into the wild-

Eric Goode 41:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 41:43 ... you go into the woods, and you experience real nature, and it's, it's fascinating. It's enthralling. There's something about... It's also so lonely. There's something about being in those mountains just puts you in check. None of that exists-

Eric Goode 41:57 Well-

Joe Rogan 41:57 ... in a canned ranch.

41:57 Mm.

Eric Goode 41:58 Yeah. Canned ranch, you can go shoot, like in South Africa, a lion.

Joe Rogan 42:02 Right.

Eric Goode 42:02 And the lion was raised in a kind of domestic situation, so it's-

Joe Rogan 42:06 And recently released.

Eric Goode 42:08 Yeah. So it just sits there.

Joe Rogan 42:09 Yeah.

Eric Goode 42:09 You know, there's no sport in it. Hunting in the United States i- i-... You know, for elk or deer a-... you know, there's a lot of things people don't know about hunting, which is, you know, one, just obviously, o- obvious statistic is that more wild lands are protected because of hunting. So yeah, you're killing a deer, but you're protecting all the other stuff. So-

Joe Rogan 42:29 Well, the amount of money, because of the Pittman Robertson Act, the amount of money that gets ... I think it's 10% of all sales of outdoor activities gets donated towards wildlife preservation. This is the reason why we can have these enormous national forests where you have wildlife biologists establish what the healthy numbers of these animals are and how many people can go hunt them. And they also know, because you have to ... when you ... Like say, if you shoot a deer, you have to register that you shot the deer.

Eric Goode 43:00 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 43:00 They ... You have a tag. They make sure that your tag is right. You, you got the right species.

Eric Goode 43:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:06 You got the right sex.

Eric Goode 43:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:07 The whole deal. And so they have a very accurate number of how many animals in there, and they spend a lot of money doing this.

Eric Goode 43:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 43:13 And these wildlife biologists do an absolutely incredible job. There's more white-tailed deer in this country right now than there were when Columbus landed.

Eric Goode 43:22 Wow.

Joe Rogan 43:22 Wow.

43:22 Part of that is because of agriculture.

Eric Goode 43:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:24 That's where it gets weird. So, um, agriculture particularly ... I have a good buddy of mine who is, uh, he's an archer, a professional archer, and he lives in Ioho-

43:34 Mm-hmm.

43:34 ... uh, Iowa rather. I always get those confused.

43:36 (laughs)

43:36 And in Iowa, it's all farmlands, right?

43:38 Yeah.

43:38 And they have enormous deer, and they set these ranches up. He has a place that's like 600 acres. It's all ... There's no fences.

43:47 Mm-hmm.

43:47 The animals come and go. But they establish these food plots and they put these things in to make it a good place for deer to be so they can hunt them.

Eric Goode 43:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:56 So it's this weird sort of-

44:00 Planned community.

44:00 ... sort of ethical bastardization of the wild, right? It's like dealing with the reality-

44:05 Yeah.

44:05 ... of what you have. You have untold thousands and thousands of monocrop agriculture acres. So thousands and thousands of acres of Monsanto corn, and they're all-

44:16 Mm-hmm.

44:16 These deer thrive there.

44:18 Oh, yeah.

44:18 Because when they chop down the corn, they don't chop it all down. And, you know, these deer, they go in there after fresh feedings. They, they go there, you see them eating corn and they eat grass. There's grass everywhere. There's plenty and plenty of food, and a very low number of predators. Like Iowa does not have a lot of ... They don't have wolves. They don't have a lot of animals that would sort of balance-

Eric Goode 44:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:39 ... out the population of these animals, and so you have insane amounts of car accidents. Like when I was in, uh-

44:45 (laughs)

44:45 I went to visit my buddy there, and just driving from the airport to his house, we saw like 50 fucking deer.

44:51 (laughs)

Eric Goode 44:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:51 And if you're going there around November, which is the rut, the men lose their mind. So the-

44:56 Sure.

44:56 ... the male deer, they're, they're horny as hell, they're crazy, and the female are breeding. The female are running from the males and they're running right into traffic, and the males are running after them and they're running right into traffic. It's kind of nuts. It's kind ... It's a really nutty situation because it only exists because there's no predators.

Eric Goode 45:13 Wow.

Joe Rogan 45:14 So if ... Like California has this bizarre model, and what California was like ... I mean, California is, I think the only state that doesn't have, uh, a fish and game department. They have Fish and Wildlife. And so they treat it very differently. Instead of treating it as a renewable resource where people can go and get their own food-

Eric Goode 45:35 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 45:36 ... and hunt animals in the wild, they treat it like w- we should have the animals take care of themselves. And so that's why it's illegal to kill a mountain lion in California, and they have a large number of mountain lions.

45:47 Mm-hmm.

45:47 It, it probably is under-reported.

Eric Goode 45:48 I, I have mount- I have mountain lions on my property.

Joe Rogan 45:50 Yeah.

Eric Goode 45:50 Like all the time.

Joe Rogan 45:51 They're dangerous. They're under-reported. And they, they are a predator and they will kill people, and they, they have killed people. It's not often, but, you know, if you're on a bike, the problem with being on a bike is you're moving a little too quick-

Eric Goode 46:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:04 ... and their instincts take over. They think you're trying to run from them and they can't even help themselves. It's like a kitten-

Eric Goode 46:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:08 ... with a ball of yarn and their, their instincts-

Eric Goode 46:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:11 ... flip in and they just go chasing after it. But-

Eric Goode 46:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:13 ... I've seen, uh, mountain lions in the wild, and it is a sobering, sobering moment when you stare into the eyes of one of those things. You're like, "Whoa."

46:22 What are you supposed to do?

Eric Goode 46:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:23 Well, you can't do much, man.

Eric Goode 46:24 Make a lot of noise.

Joe Rogan 46:25 You make a lot of noise.

Eric Goode 46:26 You're not, you're not supposed to run.

Joe Rogan 46:27 You don't run.

46:28 Yeah.

Eric Goode 46:28 It's true, it triggers the-

Joe Rogan 46:28 If you, if you have a weapon, you're ... You know, you should really have that weapon ready because they will jump you. Every now and then, they jump people. There's a crazy video-

46:36 The cougar.

46:36 Yeah. Well-

46:37 (laughs)

46:38 ... I believe two people were killed last year in the Pacific Northwest.

46:41 Mm-hmm.

Eric Goode 46:41 Of all the big cats, I think jaguars kill the least people.

Joe Rogan 46:45 Which is crazy.

Eric Goode 46:46 Which, for some reason, but-

Joe Rogan 46:47 Mm-hmm.

46:47 But, well, they also live in the least populated areas.

Eric Goode 46:50 For the most part, yeah. Uh, uh, mountain lions, yeah, of course, they will kill someone, but, you know, typically they're not looking for people.

Joe Rogan 46:58 Right, they're not looking for people.

Eric Goode 46:59 You know, it's not like a tiger that, you know, has all its prey, you know, get trapped by, you know, the local people in India and they have to go out and try to find prey, and it's people oftentimes.

Joe Rogan 47:11 And jaguars have to, at this point in time, have realized that people have bows and arrows and spears, and every now and then, if you go after a person, you can get jumped.

Eric Goode 47:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:20 And, y- you know, so they probably fig-

Eric Goode 47:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:21 Like grizzly bears behave very differently in places where grizzly bears are hunted. So in the lower 48-

Eric Goode 47:28 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:28 ... it's illegal to hunt grizzly bears. So if they see you-

Eric Goode 47:30 Right.

Joe Rogan 47:31 ... you know, if you run into them in the wrong ... They're not gonna run away. They might run towards you.

Eric Goode 47:35 Right.

Joe Rogan 47:35 Es- especially if you sur- you surprise them, it's very dangerous.

47:38 Mm-hmm.

Eric Goode 47:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:38 And that's why ... And they will treat you as food if they're really hungry.

Eric Goode 47:41 You know, you know,, uh, in the course of making Tiger King, I would interview people about tigers and how, you know, what: it's like keeping 100 tigers, and people would always say to me, "I'd rather have 100 tigers than one chimp." And p- and that's because chimps, you know, and everyone thinks, "Oh, tigers are so dangerous," but chimps can figure shit out. And one of the chronic problems keeping chimps is that they can figure out how to escape-

Joe Rogan 48:09 (laughs)

Eric Goode 48:09 ... and so you can never use a combination lock 'cause they'll sit there all day and figure it out.

Joe Rogan 48:13 Oh my God.

Eric Goode 48:13 And you gotta use oftentimes like three layers of locks.

Joe Rogan 48:17 Yeah.

Eric Goode 48:17 And I- I'm just bringing it back to chimps because-

Joe Rogan 48:19 (laughs)

Eric Goode 48:19 ... you know. If people think, "Oh, it's a chimp. It's so cute. It's in the circus." Trust me, it's a lot easier to have a tiger act than a chimp act.

Joe Rogan 48:27 Oh, I could, I could imagine. And also, when I was watching, um, this lady's enclosure, I was looking at the steel that's drilled into wood and I'm like, "I could get out of that."

Eric Goode 48:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:40 I could get out of there 100%. The way, the way that thing is bolted into the woods, all you have to do is kick that door enough.

Eric Goode 48:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:45 You kick that door hard enough and that wood'll give out.

Eric Goode 48:47 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:47 It's the wood that you're... It looks like you're encaged in, in steel bars, but the steel bars are connected by wood. Wood's easy for a chimp to break. They are so much fucking stronger than, than us.

Eric Goode 48:59 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:59 If that thing knew that it could just grab those bars-

Eric Goode 49:02 Yeah. It would-

Joe Rogan 49:02 ... and slam and slam.

Eric Goode 49:03 It would've worked g- it would have worked on that all day. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:05 100%, it would've got through.

Eric Goode 49:06 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:06 You, you would've had to figure out a way, way, way better cage, especially the one that she put in her home.

Eric Goode 49:10 You know? I'll tell you a really weird story that I just never would have thought, um, in a million years about a chimp. I was, uh, interviewing a guy in Kenya that had a chimpanzee. And the keeper was this blonde woman and all the chimp ever saw was this blonde woman. So, he started... The guy gave the chimp Playboy, and then it graduated to porn. And the chimp, because it never seen other chimps, he was raised in isolation, started re- thinking it was human and started i- sexually identifying with this woman that was keeping it and started, you know, bec- it started becoming sort of addicted to pornography.

Joe Rogan 49:47 Whoa.

Eric Goode 49:47 So just to give you (laughs) an odd, weird sort of segue.

Joe Rogan 49:50 Whoa.

Eric Goode 49:51 But how crazy? And, and, and you know, like these chimps, they'll have a favorite show. Like, like I remember a, a group with them in South Africa, all they watched was Avatar. But a- anyway, just, uh, back to sort of how-

Joe Rogan 50:03 How ironic.

Eric Goode 50:04 ... weird it is to keep a chimpanzee. You don't have a tiger getting addicted to human pornography-

Joe Rogan 50:09 Right, right, right.

Eric Goode 50:09 ... or watching Avatar all day long. So, anyway.

Joe Rogan 50:12 Well, they're too intelligent. They're just way too intelli- especially as they get five, six, and seven years old, they get really fucking dangerous. That lady in Connecticut. I had heard that she was... She slept in the bed with that, that chimpanzee.

Eric Goode 50:25 Well, that's where I was going.

Joe Rogan 50:26 Yeah.

Eric Goode 50:27 One of the things we did not cover, which I always wanted to know more about, is what really is going on in that bed with that woman?

Joe Rogan 50:34 Oh.

Eric Goode 50:35 I mean, I don't wanna talk about it in too much detail here-

Joe Rogan 50:37 Well, it's-

Eric Goode 50:38 ... but you have to ask yourself-

Joe Rogan 50:39 But it's worth asking a question.

Eric Goode 50:39 Yeah. You have to ask yourself, like how weird does it get? You know? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:45 Ugh. Right. I mean how weird does it get? Is she... Wasn't she giving it Xanax and wine?

Eric Goode 50:50 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 50:50 Leave that alone.

Eric Goode 50:51 Yeah. Uh, you haven't seen-

Joe Rogan 50:53 And Viagra?

Eric Goode 50:53 You haven't seen the-

Joe Rogan 50:54 What?

Eric Goode 50:54 (laughs) And Viagra?

Joe Rogan 50:55 She was giving it Viagra?

Eric Goode 50:56 Nah, I'm joking.

Joe Rogan 50:57 Oh. I think-

Eric Goode 50:58 But, but who knows?

Joe Rogan 50:58 You can't joke about that. You're gonna get sued.

Eric Goode 51:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:01 Um-

Narrator 51:01 Yeah, you cannot joke. But, but, uh, speaking of that though, we were... You saw the second episode. We obviously-

Joe Rogan 51:06 (laughs) I don't think chimps need Viagra. (laughs)

Narrator 51:09 No, they're very active.

Joe Rogan 51:10 Yeah.

Eric Goode 51:10 You know, it's funny actually. I heard-

Narrator 51:12 They have the biggest nuts.

Eric Goode 51:13 I heard that a chimp can fuck 50 times a day-

Narrator 51:16 That's right.

Joe Rogan 51:16 Yeah.

Eric Goode 51:17 ... in the wild. I saw it. Like...

Narrator 51:18 Yeah.

Eric Goode 51:18 So maybe they don't need Viagra. Okay.

Joe Rogan 51:20 Well, primates are very promiscuous, and chimpanzees in particular. If you notice that chimpanzees have the largest balls of, uh, any primate. And there's a reason for that. The more promiscuous the female chimpanzees are, the more sexually active the males become and the bigger their testicles are.

Eric Goode 51:37 Oh, interesting.

Narrator 51:38 Ah, interesting.

Joe Rogan 51:38 So it's like a direct correlation between the size of the male's test- testicles. And they think that exists with human beings as well, but it's a little more problematic to examine.

Eric Goode 51:46 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:47 But the-

Eric Goode 51:47 Oh, so that's my problem. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:50 (laughs)

Narrator 51:50 (laughs)

Eric Goode 51:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:50 Yeah, if you're around a bunch of ladies-

Narrator 51:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:52 ... that are a bunch of sluts-

Eric Goode 51:54 (laughs)

Narrator 51:54 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:54 ... (laughs) you might get fired up.

Eric Goode 51:55 No wonder I never got married. (laughs)

Narrator 51:57 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:57 I think that, um, with w- you know, chimpanzees, you're dealing with these incredibly complex social structures. Uh, I'm sure you guys have seen Chimp Nation?

Eric Goode 52:05 Yeah.

Narrator 52:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:06 Which is fantastic.

Eric Goode 52:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:08 It's so good. It's so good because it is a rare documentary that had this established element in that these scientists had been embedded-

Narrator 52:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:19 ... in this group of chimpanzees for 20 years. And so these scientists had very specific rules. You do not look them in the eye. You don't get any closer than 20 yards. If they come towards you, uh, 20- just move away. Don't ever have food. There's like a bunch of rules. And as long as you have those rules, they behave completely normally and they just... You don't... You're just a thing. You're like a tree or a bird or something they're not, they're not interested in, which is really interesting, right?

Eric Goode 52:42 Yeah, yeah. Amazing.

Joe Rogan 52:43 'Cause they got incredible footage of the-

Narrator 52:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:45 ... social interactions. They got a detailed analysis of how they establish dominance and who's in control and then it's, it's... We used to think it's always the biggest, strongest chimp, but no it's not. It's ones that form unions and bonds-

Narrator 52:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:57 ... and c- communities. Very interesting. It's so much like us.

Eric Goode 53:01 Well, I, I think also it's just so amazing about that film is, and I give them a, an incredible c- a l- a ton of credit. Most people that go out to do a documentary don't have the capacity to film that many days. Like they covered them.

Joe Rogan 53:15 Yes.

Eric Goode 53:16 I don't know. It was like hundreds of days or something.

Joe Rogan 53:18 Yeah, years.

Eric Goode 53:19 Or, and years.

Joe Rogan 53:20 Yeah.

Eric Goode 53:20 And I think, you know, they really invested the time and they deserve the credit because they put in that amount of time. I mean for us to do even, you know, Chimp Crazy, we filmed how many days?

Narrator 53:32 It's probably close to 250 days.

Eric Goode 53:35 I mean-

Joe Rogan 53:36 Wow.

Narrator 53:36 ... people, most people can't do that.

Joe Rogan 53:37 Right, right.

Eric Goode 53:38 You know?

Narrator 53:38 Right.

Eric Goode 53:38 And so-

Joe Rogan 53:39 I mean, it's incredible resource suck. Like how much did it cost?

Eric Goode 53:43 That's where I'm going. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:44 Yeah, my God.

Eric Goode 53:46 It's, it's-

Narrator 53:46 It's kinda, it's kinda really-

Eric Goode 53:46 But in order to make a documentary-

Joe Rogan 53:49 Did he-

Eric Goode 53:49 ... this, this way, you have to catch it while it's happening, you know, contemporaneously. So you have to be there. If, if you snooze, you lose. If you're not there, you're not gonna make Chimp Crazy.

Joe Rogan 53:59 Right, right, and you-

Eric Goode 54:00 Or, or Chimp n- what's it called? Chimp Nation. Yeah.

Narrator 54:02 Uh, Chimp Empire.

Eric Goode 54:03 Empire.

Narrator 54:04 Is that what it... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:05 Well, see chimp-

Eric Goode 54:05 There's two, right?

Narrator 54:07 Chimp Empire, right? We were talking about-

Joe Rogan 54:08 Chimp Empire. Is Chimp Nation another one?

Eric Goode 54:10 Oh, Chimp Empire-

Narrator 54:11 Yeah, this is the Netflix one. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:12 Yeah, Chimp Empire.

Narrator 54:12 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:13 Um, the way that...... (sighs) see, the thing about... The difference between your show is you need someone who's compelling. And so, you have to find someone and, like... And you, you f- what's her name again? It's this-

Eric Goode 54:25 Tonia.

Joe Rogan 54:25 ... Tonia.

Eric Goode 54:26 Tonia.

Joe Rogan 54:26 Crazy Tonia.

Eric Goode 54:27 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:27 You know, and Joe Exotic. You, like, you need someone who's, like, the, the figurehead. Like, with the photo that you guys have on the promo-

Eric Goode 54:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:35 ... of her laying down and-

Eric Goode 54:36 Yep.

Joe Rogan 54:36 ... the chimp behind her, it's perfect. (door shuts)

Eric Goode 54:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:38 It's perfect. I mean, you need that nutty person to compel you because there's part of all of us that r- recognizes that that thought would come into our minds, but then rational thought would p- go into play, like, "You can't do this."

Eric Goode 54:53 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:53 "They're dangerous. They're big. They get older. You can't control them. What happens to them? It's not fair for them to be in a c-" And then, you go, "Oh, I don't want a chimp." But if you're dull-minded, if you got a nine-volt brain, and you look at this like, "I am gonna take... They're more important to me than my own babies."

Eric Goode 55:09 I know.

Joe Rogan 55:09 Like, when she says stuff like that, you're like, "Oh, well, you shouldn't even have a dog." Like (laughs) -

Eric Goode 55:13 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:13 ... you know? Like (laughs) , "You definitely shouldn't be allowed to vote." (laughs)

Eric Goode 55:16 No, but it's interesting you say you have to find those characters, but you also have to find a story. And I mean, you can talk about this, is how wide a net we cast. 'Cause after Tiger King, it wasn't like we just jumped into this chimp mom world. We were filming, you know, Mark the Shark and, you know, women.

Joe Rogan 55:33 Yeah. We were, we were interested in-

Eric Goode 55:35 I mean, it took a lot of time to-

Joe Rogan 55:37 ... in the, in the animal-human relationship in variety of forms.

55:40 Yeah.

55:40 I think we, we, we a- a- and you see in episode one, one of the first things we, we shot, um, years before we even met Tonia, was, uh, this woman that's part of the Circus family, Pam Rosaire, uh, you know, watching 2001: Space Odyssey with her chimpanzee, Chance.

55:56 Yeah. Yeah.

55:57 Um, it's a re- I mean-

55:58 Crazy.

55:58 Talk about sobering experience. I'm, you know... Me and Carl distance with Chance the chimpanzee, 15 years old, pounding a, basically, a modified trailer home, the floor echoing.

Eric Goode 56:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:12 Yeah.

56:12 The lou- the loudness was, was... Of th- of that sound on the floor was so loud, I had to take my headset off.

Eric Goode 56:17 Yeah, it was a lot scarier-

Joe Rogan 56:18 It was, it was-

Eric Goode 56:19 And you were there. It was a lot scarier to film chimps than tigers.

Joe Rogan 56:22 I-

Eric Goode 56:22 The crew didn't have a problem going in, into a tiger enclosure 'cause the thing about tigers is, as long as they're about under the, your age f- the age four, he- even though it looks like a full-grown tiger, they ha- you know, they haven't gone through puberty yet. They, they haven't gotten the tiger, you know, mentality of killing you. But a chimp, uh... Anyway, the, uh, uh, uh, the chimp filming was a much more difficult event.

Joe Rogan 56:43 Well, they're also like human charac- characters and, and wiry, and you don't know what's gonna happen.

Eric Goode 56:49 And sca- and scare, and it's unpredictable.

Joe Rogan 56:50 They're on these kind of, um, leashes. Uh-

56:52 Well, it's also how they evolved. I mean, that's what kept them ali-... If you watch Chimp Nations, like, those sort of instincts is what keeps them al- alive.

57:00 Oh, sure. Very murderous.

57:01 Well, we didn't really know how murderous they were until Attenborough.

Eric Goode 57:05 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:05 When David Attenborough did that series, I think it was in the '90s-

Eric Goode 57:09 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:09 ... when he captured the, uh, chimps eating monkeys.

57:12 Yeah, ripping, yeah.

57:13 And this is one of the things that when I had the guy from Chimp Nation on, I d- discussed it with him. He's like, uh, "How o- how often do they eat monkeys?" He's like, "We couldn't even show it all." We, we, we... It would just be like-

Eric Goode 57:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:25 The whole show would be chimps eating monkeys. (laughs)

Eric Goode 57:27 (laughs) Yeah, yeah.

Narrator 57:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:27 Because that's what they wanna do. They wanna eat monkeys.

Eric Goode 57:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:29 That's their primary source of protein.

Eric Goode 57:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:31 They like fruit. Fruit's great, but they also like monkeys.

Eric Goode 57:34 They... Colobus monkeys, yeah, and they eat... You know, I'm a reptile guy, and in, in the range of those chimps in the wild, they ha- there's a tortoise. And this tortoise i- it's like our box turtles, but it's much bigger, but it's called a hinge-back tortoise, and it literally closes up like a rock. Like, you, you can't see, uh, any flesh. The chimps will grab that tortoise, and they'll just bang it against a tree and just crack it open like a cantaloupe.

Joe Rogan 57:58 Wow.

Eric Goode 57:58 And they, they're, th- and I'm just saying that because, yes, they're really hardcore when it comes to the way they predate on other animals.

Joe Rogan 58:07 And they're about as strong as a 500-pound man, which it's so-

58:11 That's about right, yeah.

58:12 Yeah. It's so-

58:13 It's, uh-

58:13 ... insane for us. We had a chimp on the set of NewsRadio, like, '96 or something like that. There was a baby chimp. It was a baby, and it was in a d- in a diaper. And this chimp climbed on my back and whacked me a couple times in the back just playing. It was just having fun.

Eric Goode 58:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 58:28 And I remember, first of all, the feeling of holding it is like it was made out of steel wires.

Eric Goode 58:35 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 58:35 It wasn't made o- like, a baby. You know, you pick up a baby. Babies are like soft, little... You pick up a three-year-old, they're all soft little things, and you hold onto them, and they're weak. These things were strong as fuck, like, in a bizarre way. We like to look at something that's close to our size and think, "Oh, uh, I could probably overpower that." You know, "Oh, I know how to fight."

Eric Goode 58:58 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 58:58 "I'll fight that fucking chimp off." No, you have zero chance.

Eric Goode 59:01 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:01 It, it's a different thing. Everything about it is different. The muscle structure is completely different. The tendon structure is completely different. And the amount of force it can generate is-

59:11 Yeah, the arm leverage is-

59:12 Yes.

59:12 ... pretty incredible.

Eric Goode 59:13 You know, but it's like-

Joe Rogan 59:13 But they also wanna fuck with you. They also wanna-

Eric Goode 59:15 I was just gonna say-

Joe Rogan 59:15 They also wanna, like-

Eric Goode 59:16 ... like, people alwa-

Joe Rogan 59:16 ... pull your eyeballs out.

Eric Goode 59:17 People always talk about, like, will the bear kill the lion, or will the, you know, the bear kill the tiger? I think chimpanzees, you know, when you're into, obviously, fighting and, you know... I think they (laughs) are the most-

Joe Rogan 59:30 (laughs)

Eric Goode 59:30 ... diabolical fighters 'cause, you know, I don't know what a chimp would do to a grizzly, but a chimp has- you know, goes after your genitals, your fingers, your face.

Joe Rogan 59:39 Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Goode 59:39 They know how to fuck you up like nothing else.

Joe Rogan 59:41 Yeah, they know how to d- debilitate you and take away-

Eric Goode 59:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:44 ... what makes you a human.

Eric Goode 59:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:45 Mm-hmm.

59:45 Yeah. And they also have zero remorse. They, so they're like a human in that they can think, but they have zero empathy. And they're fucking dangerous. (laughs)

Eric Goode 59:55 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:56 I'm wri- I'm writing this... You know, what was so fascinating, you'd think knowing all this about chimps later, r- r- remember this, Eric, we were talking about, well, there must be, like, reported human deaths in the United States with chimp attacks. And we couldn't find any.

1:00:07 It's only maims.

1:00:08 It's, it's only, it's only little inju-

Eric Goode 1:00:10 I mean, there are globally, but somehow-

Joe Rogan 1:00:11 Globally, a lot of them in Africa, little kids get-

Eric Goode 1:00:13 Yeah, globally, there are.

Joe Rogan 1:00:13 ... get snatched and stuff.

1:00:14 Well, kids get eaten.

1:00:15 Kids get eaten.

Eric Goode 1:00:15 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:16 But in the US, there has been no really human death caused by chimpanzee. Now, what was fascinating, and you haven't watched this yet, but in episode four, we kind of go... It comes, like, from delusion to reality, and it's heavy. Um, we filmed our first chimpanzee funeral.

Eric Goode 1:00:31 And what we didn't show, which I remember being ... I, I just remember this now-

Joe Rogan 1:00:35 Mm-hmm.

Eric Goode 1:00:35 ... everyone that would come up to say their piece would share a story where they were attacked by that animal.

Joe Rogan 1:00:41 Oh, God.

Eric Goode 1:00:43 It was, it was so, so ... The, the kind of juxtaposition of, of this celebration of life and these attacks i- in, in this context of a situation they shouldn't-

Joe Rogan 1:00:53 Well-

Eric Goode 1:00:53 ... have ever been in, it w- it was kind of remarkable.

Joe Rogan 1:00:54 Right. And, and animal attacks in general, across the board, in roadside zoos and, and private sector are completely under-reported because people don't want their animals taken away.

Eric Goode 1:01:05 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:01:05 So if a tiger attacks someone and they have a huge laceration, they'll go to the hospital saying it was your chainsaw.

Eric Goode 1:01:11 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:11 You know? 'Cause the second they say, "It was my tiger or my chimp-"

Eric Goode 1:01:14 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:01:15 ... you know, they run the risk of losing that animal. You also have the problem with less than extraordinary people being addicted to extraordinary circumstances.

Eric Goode 1:01:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:26 So if you have a boring-ass fucking life in some middle-of-nowhere town, but you also have a lion. (laughs)

Eric Goode 1:01:33 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:33 You know? Like all of a sudden- You're cool.

Eric Goode 1:01:35 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:35 Life, life's great.

Eric Goode 1:01:35 They're cool.

Joe Rogan 1:01:36 Life's pretty interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Eric Goode 1:01:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:38 You know? I mean, and that's Joe Exotic, right? Yeah.

Eric Goode 1:01:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:40 Well, Joe Exotic, I think, is pretty smart. H- h- he's, uh, odd for sure, but intelligent. But in Tanya's case, like what would that lady be like if she didn't have chimps? Like, it, it is the focal- Yeah. ... point of her life, to the point where she neglected her own biological children. Yeah, it gives her an identity.

Eric Goode 1:01:58 Like-

Joe Rogan 1:01:58 Yeah. In a weird way.

Eric Goode 1:01:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:59 In a weird way, in a, in a very compelling way. And when people live boring-ass lives, i- it does ... Things like that seem like something that, "That's who I am."

Eric Goode 1:02:09 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:02:09 Like, "That's me." Because it's extraordinary experiences- Yeah. ... from persons that are, you know-

Eric Goode 1:02:14 Where does that come from though?

Joe Rogan 1:02:16 It's like- Is it influence? Well, it's ... Well, I think we like experiences, first of all. Yeah. There's a part of evolution where human beings ... Part of our d- lust for innovation and for constant improvement of our, our environment and circumstances is, we like extraordinary experiences. I think it's what made people successful. I think, uh, the more daring and the more, uh, addicted you were to extraordinary experiences, the more likely you were to find new hunting grounds, the more likely you were to conquer neighboring tribes, the more likely you to survive a, an attack by oth- Right. Like, I think human beings like extraordinary experiences. We like comfort, but not as much as we like extraordinary experiences. Mm-hmm. But having some of these animals is like chick bait, you know? It's like a little pooch gets you a lot of cooch, like a guy that's walking-

Eric Goode 1:03:03 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:03 ... a dog. Joe had tigers to get boys. (laughs) Which is so wild. They were. (laughs) He got straight guys. (laughs) I mean, that guy had some fucking game. (laughs) Exactly. Yeah. I guess, I guess I see your point, you know. Um, people-

Eric Goode 1:03:16 Come on, if you have a chimp, a baby chimp, you're walking around-

Joe Rogan 1:03:19 Oh, yeah.

Eric Goode 1:03:19 ... Austin, Texas.

Joe Rogan 1:03:20 Sure.

Eric Goode 1:03:21 You get-

Joe Rogan 1:03:21 People-

Eric Goode 1:03:22 People come up to you and go, "Oh, Joe, I love your little chimp."

Joe Rogan 1:03:24 That's interesting, though.

Eric Goode 1:03:25 "I wanna go out with you."

Joe Rogan 1:03:26 What a weird way to try to attract ... Well, like, they always say that about puppies. Like gu- guys bring a puppy to the park-

Eric Goode 1:03:31 That's why (laughs) - I mean, I'm more interested with, in Carl now, you know? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:34 (laughs)

Eric Goode 1:03:35 Carl's a little psychopath, but-

Joe Rogan 1:03:35 (laughs)

Eric Goode 1:03:35 Yeah, what's your, what's your motivation over there with that baby dog?

Joe Rogan 1:03:38 Well, isn't it interesting when you see Carl interact with Marshall?

Eric Goode 1:03:40 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:41 'Cause Marshall's like, "I don't wanna hurt you. I don't want nothing to do with you, so stop biting me. What are you doing?" Like-

Eric Goode 1:03:47 Yeah, you can see it.

Joe Rogan 1:03:47 Yeah. But, well, we got two different kinds of things, you know. Like, one of them is like a little bulldog, this little psychopath.

Eric Goode 1:03:54 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:54 And the other one is a golden retriever, who's like a love sponge. Like all he wants to do is be your friend.

Eric Goode 1:03:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:59 He wants to be your friend and ... Unless you're a squirrel. And that's really interesting. You watch his reaction to squirrels, like his intensity when it comes to, like, squirrels and birds. He is so-

Eric Goode 1:04:09 It's the movement, right? Is it ... It's the movement? Is that what's attracting them?

Joe Rogan 1:04:12 Uh, it's just instincts.

Eric Goode 1:04:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:13 It just fires up that part in their DNA that knows that that's what they do.

Eric Goode 1:04:17 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 1:04:17 But the bizarre thing with, uh, retrievers is, it's not to eat it. It's to bring it to you.

Eric Goode 1:04:23 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:23 It's always to bring it to you. Like one time I, uh, I got home and, uh, I let, I let the dog out, I opened up the back door, and I just had to take a leak. So I took a leak and then as I flushed, washed my hands, opened the door, he's standing there with a squirrel in his mouth. Like he got a squirrel that quick.

Eric Goode 1:04:40 Wow.

Joe Rogan 1:04:40 And he wanted me to know.

Eric Goode 1:04:40 He's so happy to show you.

Joe Rogan 1:04:41 He was so happy.

Eric Goode 1:04:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:42 And I was like, "Dude, what did you do?" And he's like, "Who?"

Eric Goode 1:04:45 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:45 "What did I do?" I'm like, "What did you do, man?" And so I got rid of the squirrel, but it ... Whenever he sees one, it's just ... Nobody had to teach him that. He's locked in.

Eric Goode 1:04:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:55 Like that's what he wants to do. He wants to go get squirrels. And he wants to bring them back to you. It's, it's, it's a weird thing because it's like you, you understand predatory instincts. Like cats have them. They're the worst. Cats are ... They've killed so many fucking birds. It's something like a bil-

Eric Goode 1:05:10 It does.

Joe Rogan 1:05:11 It's multiple billions of, uh, of mammals and birds are killed every year by outside cats.

Eric Goode 1:05:17 The first thing that kills, you know, songbirds, birds, is glass windows, skyscrapers and glass windows.

Joe Rogan 1:05:22 Mm.

Eric Goode 1:05:22 Second is domestic cats, and they are killing machines and they really do take a toll on wild birds.

Joe Rogan 1:05:27 I went-

Eric Goode 1:05:28 In a terrible way.

Joe Rogan 1:05:28 Because I'm getting ready for this podcast. I went down a, a, a dirty road last night, a, a, a wormhole of cats, predatory cats. And there's, there's compilations of cats just jacking pigeons, jacking squirrels-

Eric Goode 1:05:42 Oh, wow.

Joe Rogan 1:05:43 ... jacking everything, everything they're, they can get their hands on.

Eric Goode 1:05:46 Yeah, yeah. No, cats are bad unless they're indoors, domestic cats. They've ... You know, i- in Hawaii, cats are the reason why so many species in Hawaii went extinct.

Joe Rogan 1:05:55 Yep, yep.

Eric Goode 1:05:56 You know? They're just-

Joe Rogan 1:05:56 And A- and Australia.

Eric Goode 1:05:58 Australia.

Joe Rogan 1:05:58 They brought them in in Australia to deal with certain animals and then they got out of control.

Eric Goode 1:06:03 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:03 And now in Australia they hunt them.

Eric Goode 1:06:05 Dodo birds went extinct because of domestic cats that were introduced into Mauritius in, you know, 200, 300 years ago, whenever dodo birds went extinct. But no, they're killing machines.

Joe Rogan 1:06:14 They're machines.

Eric Goode 1:06:14 Sorry to interrupt you on that. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:06:15 No, no, no, no words. But it ... Like, so like their predatory instincts are more reasonable. Like I understand that they're cats and that's what cats do and ... But the weird thing about a retriever is, he's not doing it to eat it.

Eric Goode 1:06:29 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:29 He's doing it to bring it to me.

Eric Goode 1:06:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:30 Like, I didn't even have to teach him to, to bring a ball back. Like, he learned within, like, the first two or three throws.

Eric Goode 1:06:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:06:38 If I throw the ball, he brings it back to me. It's just in... It's brought into them. Whereas every other dog that I've had, I had to teach them. You know, you throw the ball. You're like, "Come on, bring it back. Come on, bring it back." And you bring it back, you give him a treat, and they understand. You, you know, you praise them. They... And then eventually, they understand commands, and they have this, like, pathway that you've carved into their system of chasing the ball, bringing it back. "We're gonna have fun. Chase the ball, bring it back." Marshall, it was in there.

Eric Goode 1:07:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:04 It was already in there.

Eric Goode 1:07:04 But that's his programming, right? I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:07:05 Which is crazy. Yeah.

Eric Goode 1:07:06 Which is, which is so, so much of what the, what we found so interesting about the, the justification for this love that a lot of these subjects we covered had for these chimpanzees was that, "They love me."

Joe Rogan 1:07:19 Yeah.

Eric Goode 1:07:19 "You know, they do these things with me. I've, I, I, I've trained them to believe that they have feelings for me and I have feelings for them. We have this understanding." And I feel, I feel what we've realized is this kind of imbalance of, of, um, this, this mutuality of caregiving that I think exists with a lot of our, our subjects that we cover, but also some of the chimpanzees. But what's so- It's very, very incredibly selfish around the symmetry of needs being met. But it's so disturbing, you know, you have a beautiful lab, a dog, that, you know, Tonia says, uh, you know, constantly how much she loves this chimp, Tonka. But the chimp is, like, incarcerated in, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:07:58 Right.

Eric Goode 1:07:59 ... this cage. It's like, Tonia, if you really love this chimp and Tonka loves you back, why the cage?

Joe Rogan 1:08:04 Right.

Eric Goode 1:08:05 You know, you don't have a cage for your dog.

Joe Rogan 1:08:07 Right.

Eric Goode 1:08:08 And it just seems so obvious. Like, T- Tonia, this chimp does not love you the way (laughs) you love it.

Joe Rogan 1:08:13 Well, I think it does, but it also doesn't have a choice, right? So, if Tonia lived in the jungle, if she had a shack in the jungle and the chimp lived in the jungle wild and free, how much would the chimp visit her? First of all, it wouldn't be eating chicken nuggets and drinking Coca-Cola, which is weird too, that she's feeding this thing. And she said it has congestive heart failure. Spoiler alert again.

Eric Goode 1:08:34 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:34 It's still good. You, you still gotta watch it, folks. But if you j- give a person that, they fucking get sick. Like, nothing you're doing to that chimp-

Eric Goode 1:08:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:43 ... is natural. The cage is not natural. The food's not natural. Nothing's natural. You know one of the saddest things for me? Was when she was showing it Instagram Reels.

Eric Goode 1:08:52 Ugh.

Joe Rogan 1:08:52 And just scrolling through-

Eric Goode 1:08:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:54 ... Reels and the chimp's just staring at the screen.

Eric Goode 1:08:56 That is-

Joe Rogan 1:08:57 That was the weirdest one.

Eric Goode 1:08:57 That's really disturbing.

Joe Rogan 1:08:59 That... For whatever-

Eric Goode 1:09:00 That moment.

Joe Rogan 1:09:00 But meanwhile, I do that. (laughs)

Eric Goode 1:09:02 (laughs) I know that... But that's a lot, that's a lot of the sentiment we see from people-

Joe Rogan 1:09:05 But... Mm-hmm.

Eric Goode 1:09:05 ... is the reaction to that we are basically doing that ourselves.

Joe Rogan 1:09:07 Oh, yeah. Yeah, we're doing it to ourselves.

Eric Goode 1:09:09 But you're not looking at your son-

Joe Rogan 1:09:10 But at least... You can make a choice.

Eric Goode 1:09:11 Yeah, sure.

Joe Rogan 1:09:11 "I'm gonna put this down."

Eric Goode 1:09:12 Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:09:12 "And I'm gonna go out (laughs) in the real world-"

Eric Goode 1:09:13 Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:09:13 "... and have fun with human beings and have a good time with my friends." You can make those choices. The chimp doesn't have a choice. It's essentially a prisoner for no reason. And it likes the guard.

Eric Goode 1:09:23 And that chimp, you know, Tonka was looking at its kids-

Joe Rogan 1:09:27 Yeah.

Eric Goode 1:09:27 ... in that footage, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:09:28 Yeah.

Eric Goode 1:09:28 Whether Tonka knew it or not, but...

Joe Rogan 1:09:30 And Instagram. It was looking at a bunch of things, but just staring at the screens. But I don't think it probably understood that those were his kids, but it probably did-

Eric Goode 1:09:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:37 ... remember what it was like to have babies, you know?

Eric Goode 1:09:40 And to be outside.

Joe Rogan 1:09:41 Yeah, to be outside.

Eric Goode 1:09:41 It's sitting there in that cage in the basement looking at these chimps washing a Mercedes that's outside. You know, we both still talk to To- Tonia almost daily, or communicate with Tonia.

Joe Rogan 1:09:51 Oh, my God.

Eric Goode 1:09:52 And it's the most bizarre communication because, you know, we don't w-... Everyone thinks I lied to Tonia about this film. She would've talked to me anyway. I'm convinced of that. And when I did come into the picture, it w-... She didn't skip a beat. And she was like, "Oh, it's you. Let's, let's keep filming for another year and a half." But she continues to talk with us and we continue to tell her, "Tonia, you know, maybe this is an opportunity for you to rethink and reinvent yourself, you know?" Like, it- it's... Anyways, it's, it's really interesting.

Joe Rogan 1:10:24 Well, it doesn't seem like she has a lot of self-reflection, with all due respect.

Eric Goode 1:10:30 Uh, I, I know.

Joe Rogan 1:10:31 Which in, you know-

Eric Goode 1:10:32 It's hard not to be compassionate with a lot of these people, to be honest. Right. It's really hard because I do-

Joe Rogan 1:10:37 They're humans.

Eric Goode 1:10:37 They're humans.

Joe Rogan 1:10:38 Yeah.

Eric Goode 1:10:38 Well, especially Tonia 'cause she let us into her life in such an intimate way that, you know, it was... You know, she was really generous that way. Um, so it isn't black and white. There's a lot of gray.

Joe Rogan 1:10:50 Right. She seems like-

Eric Goode 1:10:50 I understand, I understand an audience reaction though. And you can have those kind of conflicting views on it. But, uh, uh, being part of making it is... You know, we're partially complicit to it too as well. I mean, in a way of, um, of sharing that story in a way.

Joe Rogan 1:11:05 Well, y- you know, there's the age-old term, "With great power comes great responsibility." It is a great responsibility to, uh, hold a large chimpanzee in your house. That is a great power. It is an enormous responsibility. And she should not have the option to have that responsibility.

Eric Goode 1:11:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:22 She's not capable of managing that situation. It's, it's... I don't think anybody's capable of it. I think the same way... I just think dolphins, we're lucky that they're nice. That's wha- what I think.

Eric Goode 1:11:33 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:11:33 We're lucky that they're nice because they shouldn't... They should be killing us every chance they can to.

Eric Goode 1:11:36 They're little rapists. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:37 They are. They're... And not just that, but, uh, infanticide.

Eric Goode 1:11:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:40 You know, the, the reason why female, um, dolphins are so promiscuous?

Eric Goode 1:11:43 I know.

Joe Rogan 1:11:44 Well, male dolphins, when they find a female, uh, if the female has babies, she will not breed for, uh, I think it's a long period of time. I think it's around six years.

Eric Goode 1:11:53 Oh, wow.

Joe Rogan 1:11:53 See if that's true. Um...

Eric Goode 1:11:55 Wow.

Joe Rogan 1:11:56 But... So, what a male will do, he'll kill