Joe Rogan Experience #2213 - Diane K. Boyd

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast,…

   1. DBDiane K. Boyd0:00

      (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. DBDiane K. Boyd0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) What's up?

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      How are you?

   5. DBDiane K. Boyd0:13

      (laughs) I am great. Long flight in from Montana, but I'm great. Thank you.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      Well, it's very nice to meet you. And, uh, I really enjoyed you on Steve Renell's podcast as well.

   7. DBDiane K. Boyd0:20

      Oh, good. Oh, good. You got to watch it?

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:22

      Yeah. Steve... Well, H- Steve made the introduction.

   9. DBDiane K. Boyd0:24

      Yes.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:25

       Uh, he, uh, told me, "I have to have you on."

   11. DBDiane K. Boyd0:27

       (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:27

       Because he knows how fascinated I am by wolves. So, uh, I'm real excited to talk to you.

   13. DBDiane K. Boyd0:32

       Thanks. And I'm excited, too, because I thought-

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       (laughs)

   15. DBDiane K. Boyd0:34

       ... well, you got... We're y- we're both hunters, we're both dog lovers, you got an interest in wolves. It's all good.

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:39

       Yeah. How did you start getting interested in wolves and start working with wolves?

   17. DBDiane K. Boyd0:43

       Well, I grew up in Minnesota, and you can probably tell from the Fargo accent. But, um, I grew up in Minnesota, and back in the 60s and 70s when I was thinking about a career, Minnesota was the only state in the lower 48 that had wolves, with the exception of a few, like 25 maybe in Iowa, a couple here or there in, in, uh, Wisconsin. And so I was interested from the beginning with that. And then when I went to the University of Minnesota, Dave Mech, who was like the go- god of the wolf world, his office was on my campus.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:12

       Oh.

   19. DBDiane K. Boyd1:12

       So I just stopped by and kept bugging him.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:15

       (laughs)

   21. DBDiane K. Boyd1:15

       And I wouldn't, I wouldn't go away, like a good parasite. Persist, persist, persist. (laughs)

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:19

       Why wolves? Why were wolves so interesting to you?

   23. DBDiane K. Boyd1:22

       You know, I'm just... I'm kind of, um, a wildlife person. They're the ultimate and, uh, really wild and smart animal. They're a carnivore. They're social like people. And, uh, I think I was denied having a dog most of my life growing up till I was about 15, so I had this com- this passion for canines in general.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:43

       Mm-hmm.

   25. DBDiane K. Boyd1:43

       I love dogs.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:44

       I do too. I love them. Uh, and I love wolves. Um, I'm so fascinated by them, and I'm so, uh, interested in the whole history of them in this country, how they were sort of eradicated-

   27. DBDiane K. Boyd1:57

       Mm-hmm.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:57

       ... from most of the western states and the reintroduction of them.

   29. DBDiane K. Boyd1:59

       Mm-hmm.

   30. JRJoe Rogan2:00

       So you were there for all of it, right?
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Yeah. …

   1. DBDiane K. Boyd15:00

      a little bit bigger than wolves. I don't know if you've ever-

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:02

      Yeah.

   3. DBDiane K. Boyd15:02

      ... hunted 'em or not, but my God, they're really-

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:04

      I've never hunted a mountain lion, but I saw one in the-

   5. DBDiane K. Boyd15:07

      You did?

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:07

      On ... Yeah. I saw one in Utah a couple years back, and it was a big one, like 170-

   7. DBDiane K. Boyd15:11

      Impressive.

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:11

      ... pound one.

   9. DBDiane K. Boyd15:12

      Oh, my gosh.

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:12

       It was enormous.

   11. DBDiane K. Boyd15:14

       Did they, did they, did they tree it with hounds?

   12. JRJoe Rogan15:16

       No. No. We were driving-

   13. DBDiane K. Boyd15:18

       Oh.

   14. JRJoe Rogan15:18

       ... and, uh, we were about 25, 30 yards from it, and, uh-

   15. DBDiane K. Boyd15:22

       Wow.

   16. JRJoe Rogan15:22

       ... my friend stopped the truck and he said, "Look at the size of that cat." It was under a tree, and it was just as dawn w- or just as dusk was happening-

   17. DBDiane K. Boyd15:30

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan15:30

       ... so you could see his eyes glowing.

   19. DBDiane K. Boyd15:31

       Oh.

   20. JRJoe Rogan15:32

       And so I'm in the front seat of the car, looking at him through 10X binos-

   21. DBDiane K. Boyd15:36

       Wow.

   22. JRJoe Rogan15:37

       ... and just getting a good look at his fa... It was incredible.

   23. DBDiane K. Boyd15:40

       And they ... They're, they're beautiful animals, and I always think, when I'm out in the woods, I got a little cabin way up Northwest Montana, I wonder how many times mountain lions have watched me.

   24. JRJoe Rogan15:50

       Oh, I bet a lot.

   25. DBDiane K. Boyd15:51

       Uh, I worry about mountain lions.

   26. JRJoe Rogan15:53

       Yeah.

   27. DBDiane K. Boyd15:53

       They're, they're stealthy. I don't worry about wolves.

   28. JRJoe Rogan15:55

       Yeah, you should worry about mountain lions. (laughs)

   29. DBDiane K. Boyd15:58

       (laughs)

   30. JRJoe Rogan15:58

       And you're out there by yourself too, right?
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   And then once you…

   1. DBDiane K. Boyd30:00

      it's like when I go... I go up to my cabin for a visit now. I, I no longer live there full-time, but I live there a couple of months a year, maybe three, maybe, usually two. When I go up, it takes me like three to four days to decompress and get back into the mode of, "Oh, I can't, I can't call. Oh, I can't go on the internet." Do I want to hook up the Starlink? No. Go out and just sit outside and have a cup of tea and, and listen to the crick and then think about what you're going to do for the day. Go on a hike. But it takes me a few days now-... to get to that frame of mind. It doesn't, it's not instant anymore. So I, I've changed who I am, for sure.

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:34

      And then once you get to that frame of mind, then you can just like, "Today, we're going to go on a hike." Just bring the dogs, just go walk around-

   3. DBDiane K. Boyd30:41

      Go fly-fishing.

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:42

      ... and enjoy yourself.

   5. DBDiane K. Boyd30:42

      Whatever.

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:43

      Wow.

   7. DBDiane K. Boyd30:44

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan30:45

      And were, were you living off the land? Were you catching fish for food and hunting for food? Like, how were you getting your supplies?

   9. DBDiane K. Boyd30:52

      I did that, but, um, I bought stuff in town and I would buy a lot in November while I could still drive in. Because sometimes in the winter, y- you couldn't drive in anymore. So I would stock up and buy, you know, three, 400 pounds of dog food and bulk supplies of flour and oats. And, and I can... Back then, I actually did some canning. I don't, now I don't have time, I don't care about it. I could buy canned peaches or whatever. (laughs)

   10. JRJoe Rogan31:16

       (laughs)

   11. DBDiane K. Boyd31:16

       But I, I, and I never grew a food garden because of the bears.

   12. JRJoe Rogan31:21

       Oh, yeah.

   13. DBDiane K. Boyd31:22

       See, I didn't want to attract grizzlies.

   14. JRJoe Rogan31:25

       Right.

   15. DBDiane K. Boyd31:25

       So I didn't grow food, except lettuce.

   16. JRJoe Rogan31:28

       How often did you run into them up there?

   17. DBDiane K. Boyd31:30

       They're always there, but you don't see them very often. So it's sort of like all the wild things that are up there-

   18. JRJoe Rogan31:37

       Yeah.

   19. DBDiane K. Boyd31:37

       ... are pretty wild. And, and there weren't a lot of people up there then. Now everybody's discovered Montana and there's people everywhere, right? (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan31:44

       Well, it's so interesting because our senses are so dull-

   21. DBDiane K. Boyd31:47

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan31:47

       ... compared to theirs. We move so slow-

   23. DBDiane K. Boyd31:49

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan31:49

       ... and we're so loud-

   25. DBDiane K. Boyd31:51

       Yes.

   26. JRJoe Rogan31:51

       ... and we're so clunky, that they see us a mile away. They smell us a mile away.

   27. DBDiane K. Boyd31:56

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan31:56

       They know exactly where you are, and most of the time, they just avoid us.

   29. DBDiane K. Boyd32:00

       Totally true. And I, I mean, I've just come back from bird hunting. I just was 31 days on the road, and I just got home three days ago, and now I'm here. And I was out bird hunting with friends and I said, I told them, I said, "So when hunting with my pointers," I got a Grifon and a Wirehair. I said, "Don't talk. Don't call the dog's name. Don't holler about... Just, just watch and enjoy and smell and feel what goes on, and trust the dogs. If you see them getting birdy, get ready." Because so many times you hunt with people and they're, they're hacking their dog, they're calling, they're hollering. They're talking to you about something going on over here and, "Hey, did you watch the, the Vikings game?" Well, nobody watches the Vikings game. Anyway, "Did you watch this or that?" (laughs) It's like, we are out there seeking a smart bird that has ears. Watch the dogs. So I, I feel that way when I'm out living in the wild too without hiking. I'm not going to see elk or bears or even fox if you're yammering away.

   30. JRJoe Rogan32:58

       Right.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Yeah, that is the…

   1. JRJoe Rogan45:00

      Yeah, that is the problem with these-

   2. DBDiane K. Boyd45:01

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan45:01

      ... uh, people that don't have a nuanced perspective on what's happening, because they have a vested interest in it being a problem that the wolves are keeping them from being able to be successful on an elk hunt.

   4. DBDiane K. Boyd45:12

      Right.

   5. JRJoe Rogan45:13

      I-

   6. DBDiane K. Boyd45:13

      And I'm a hunter. I get it.

   7. JRJoe Rogan45:14

      Yeah. But the, the die-offs are huge. Like, the, the place that I was just telling you about-

   8. DBDiane K. Boyd45:19

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan45:19

      ... before the podcast that I was in in Utah-

   10. DBDiane K. Boyd45:20

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan45:21

       ... they lost 80% of their mule deer population a year ago.

   12. DBDiane K. Boyd45:24

       From what?

   13. JRJoe Rogan45:25

       Snow.

   14. DBDiane K. Boyd45:25

       Yeah. And, and so w-

   15. JRJoe Rogan45:27

       Real bad winter.

   16. DBDiane K. Boyd45:28

       Yeah, yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan45:28

       And bad... And then d- winter die-offs are a big thing. It's a big thing.

   18. DBDiane K. Boyd45:32

       I would say, to the best of my knowledge as a biologist, that winter die-off is the limiting factor for ungulate herds. It's not lions and bears and wolves and humans and cars. Every so often, every 20 years or whatever, you get a massive winter die-off, and it takes, uh, quite a while for those populations to build back up.

   19. JRJoe Rogan45:50

       Yeah.

   20. DBDiane K. Boyd45:51

       Predators can keep that at a lower rate. They can not affect it. You know, I have to think back to the people say about wolves killing all the deer now, and I think if you look at the statistics at Montana and Wyoming, which have both have had a (laughs) a lot of wolves for a couple decades, they're giving away more elk permits. Eh, I just was reading, they proposed unlimited elk permits in Wyoming, and Montana's got, basically, in most of its management units, more elk than ever. And I just say there's more going on than wolves, and to point your finger at wolves all the time, you need to look at habitat, and you need to look at access issues. You know, there's a lot of places where hunters want to go shoot these elk-

   21. JRJoe Rogan46:29

       Right.

   22. DBDiane K. Boyd46:29

       ... but they're on large, private ranches, and you can't get on them.

   23. JRJoe Rogan46:32

       Including landlocked public land, where you-

   24. DBDiane K. Boyd46:34

       Yes.

   25. JRJoe Rogan46:34

       There is public land where you're allowed to hunt there, but you can't get there.

   26. DBDiane K. Boyd46:38

       Right.

   27. JRJoe Rogan46:38

       You'd have to fly in in a helicopter. In a lot of places, that's illegal.

   28. DBDiane K. Boyd46:42

       Right. Right.

   29. JRJoe Rogan46:43

       And so, there's all this talk of, uh, for people that don't know, there's, what, one, one of the things that happens is a thing called corner crossing.

   30. DBDiane K. Boyd46:53

       Yes.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:11:39

   Yeah. Sounds like a…

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:00:00

      ..." Boy, good luck with that word.

   2. DBDiane K. Boyd1:00:00

      Yeah. Sounds like a vodka.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:00:02

      Verkhoy-

   4. DBDiane K. Boyd1:00:04

      (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:00:04

      ... Verkhoyansk. Uh, population-

   6. DBDiane K. Boyd1:00:07

      So what, what's the source?

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:00:08

      ... 1300. Um.

   8. GPGuest (unidentified, brief caller/clip participant)1:00:09

      I think Guinness Book of World Records.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:00:10

      Guinness Book of World Records.

   10. DBDiane K. Boyd1:00:12

       I-

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:00:12

       Uh, northern-

   12. DBDiane K. Boyd1:00:12

       It's like Wikipedia?

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:00:14

       (laughs) Yeah. Oh, they're a little better than that.

   14. DBDiane K. Boyd1:00:16

       (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:00:17

       One- (laughs) Wikipedia sketch.

   16. DBDiane K. Boyd1:00:19

       (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:00:19

       "One of the remotest inhabited areas of the northern hemisphere. More than 30 horses were killed in just four days." And I remember reading about this in 2010. Um, it said, um, "According to local officials, teams of hunters were established to patrol neighborhoods and shoot the wolves on site. Animal experts suspicious of the claims say that wolves usually form packs of no more than 10 to 15 animals, although the particularly harsh winters may have killed off the wolves' usual pla- prey, forcing them to attack larger animals." This is a, this was multiple sources had this story.

   18. DBDiane K. Boyd1:00:49

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:00:49

       And I, I remember it about a decade or so ago.

   20. DBDiane K. Boyd1:00:51

       Well, I, I'd love to look up more detail, but I can tell y- I can tell you about, I can tell you about the news source, and I d- well, I'm not, not familiar with that, and I don't read-... that kind of stuff, usually. But if it's true, it's true. I, I don't happen to believe it's true. But what I can tell you about the true-

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:01:05

       Yeah.

   22. DBDiane K. Boyd1:01:06

       ... about wolf biology is wolves live in packs that are generally a family group. They have a genetic investment in their pack members. There's oftentimes one or two that aren't related. And they defend that territory to the death, whether there's five of them or 25 of them, and that would be a large pack. The largest pack I've ever heard of in... was in Yellowstone. I think it was 34 'cause three females had pups. But-

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:01:27

       So to have 400 wolves-

   24. DBDiane K. Boyd1:01:29

       I-

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:01:29

       ... move together is-

   26. DBDiane K. Boyd1:01:30

       Why would they do that?

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:01:31

       Right.

   28. DBDiane K. Boyd1:01:31

       What's the benefit to them? They're com- they're g- they're gathering, collaborating with animals that aren't related to them, that have no genetic benefit to see them each survive. And normally, packs that are not related kill each other. It's the biggest cause of mortality in Yellowstone Park is wolves killing non-pack members.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:01:49

       Wolves are very, very intelligent though, right?

   30. DBDiane K. Boyd1:01:51

       Oh, I know.

Episode duration: 2:57:28