EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,011 words- 0:00 – 15:00
(drumming music plays) Joe Rogan podcast,…
- G3Guest 3
(drumming music plays) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out!
- HOHost
The Joe Rogan Experience.
- G3Guest 3
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night! All day. (rock music plays) All right. Brian Cox. Good to see you, sir.
- HOHost
Good to see you again.
- G3Guest 3
How's, uh, things in the world of the discovery of the universe? Any-
- HOHost
Exciting-
- G3Guest 3
Yes, very.
- HOHost
... I would say. I, I've been doing some work on black holes recently, which I hadn't started last time I saw you, actually. So I got interested in it. And the, the amount of the progress that's been made in trying to understand how they work, and, and a question that was posed by Stephen Hawking a long time ago, really 1970s, early 1980s, which is, "What happens to stuff that falls in?" The simplest question you could possibly ask.
- G3Guest 3
Right.
- HOHost
There's progress being made on that now, which I think is profound and exciting.
- G3Guest 3
How is the progress being made? Like how, how do we... how do we study a black hole?
- HOHost
I mean, it's mainly theoretical. Although, um, we, we have now got photographs of them. So we have two photographs, which are radio telescope photographs.
- G3Guest 3
Right.
- HOHost
One of the, the one in the center of our galaxy, which is a, a little one. It's called Sagittarius A*. A lit- it's a s- it's a little super massive black hole. So it's about six million times the mass of the sun-
- G3Guest 3
(laughs)
- HOHost
... which makes it a little super massive.
- G3Guest 3
(laughs)
- HOHost
And then there's another one. The first photo that was taken, it's a collaboration called Event Horizon, and they took a photo of one in the galaxy M87, 55 million light years away. That thing is around six billion times the mass of the sun. Can you imagine that? 6,000 million times more massive than our sun.
- G3Guest 3
Is that the largest black hole we've ever discovered?
- HOHost
No. There, there are bigger ones than that, but that's the... (laughs) The, the, that, that's the scale of them. It's a biggish one, that.
- G3Guest 3
Oh.
- HOHost
But if you think about it... I mean, so there's a number, it's called the, the Schwarzschild radius of the thing. So if you, if you took our sun, which you can fit a million Earths inside, and collapsed it down to make a black hole, it would form a black hole when it shrunk within a radius of three, three kilometers, about two miles. So you've got to take this thing, which is-
- G3Guest 3
Wow.
- HOHost
... well, I have to convert from kilometers to miles, don't I? But it's about-
- G3Guest 3
That's okay. Seven hundred... Seven hundred thousand kilometers. So it's about five, five- 500,000 miles radius or something like that, the sun. So it's a... You squash it down till it's about two miles, and then that would form a black hole. Wow.
- HOHost
The... Six billion times the mass of the sun means you multiply that by six billion. So these things, the, the so-called Schwarzschild radius is, I don't know, larger than our solar system basically.
- G3Guest 3
Oh my God.
- HOHost
This thing that, that sits in, in a galaxy. So we've got these two photographs of it.
- G3Guest 3
Larger than our solar system?
- HOHost
Yeah, the Event... Right. (laughs) The, the... There's... You, you... so it's, it's, it's a big structure.
- 15:00 – 30:00
And it's- …
- HOHost
beyond this line. It just stops. (laughs) Okay. So, I mean, admittedly that's not... we, we think it's... there's more, a lot more to it than that, but- It's just we haven't figured the rest of it out yet? Well, that's the thing. So we're starting to get hints about what might happen, which is- Wow. ... which is leading us... so to, to backtrack a bit, why, why does this calculation Stephen did, why has it got no informat-... why does it say there's no information in this radiation? The thing is, it's coming from the horizon. So it's all... one... there's loads of ways to think about it, but o- one way is that th- this, this weird place, this point of no return in space that you can fall through, but it's a point of no return, it sort of shakes, it almost disrupts the vacuum of space and sort of almost shakes particles out of the vacuum. That's one way of thinking about it. But this radiation is coming from the vacuum, it's coming from empty space. Whereas if you think about the thing that I throw in, if I throw this, this notepad into the thing, then that goes to the singularity. It's got nothing to do... the radiation's got nothing to do with this thing. This thing's not... this thing is not set on fire or something like that. It's, it's gone to the end of time and just whatever's happened to it has happened to it. So, so this radiation's got nothing to do with ev- anything that falls in, at first sight at least. And so that was the paradox. It's called the black hole information paradox. It's like it... one way to put it is the laws of nature that we use to calculate what happens tell us that information is never destroyed. And when you calculate what happens, it tells us that information is destroyed. So that's why everyone got interested in it (laughs) in the '80s, 'cause it's interesting. So when, when we're looking at the structure of the universe, o- o- obviously there's so much still to learn just about what's out there, you know, but what role do we think... like what is the... is there a purpose, is that the right term, like for a black hole? Like what, what... obviously we know... is it still the, the... do they still believe that in the center of every galaxy there's a supermassive black hole that's, what is it, one half of 1% of the mass of the galaxy? Is that what it is? Yeah, something like... yeah. And, and that's... there's occasionally a galaxy, I think one was discovered where we said maybe we can't see evidence of a black hole, but I think- Oh, really? Yeah. I... but, yeah- So- ... there probably is one. I, I think it's- What do you think that thing's doing there? Like what is that? What's the pro- what is the struc-... the structure is so insanely complex and so immense and you see these things everywhere. And so what purpose do you think they serve in the universe? So (laughs) I mean- Is that a right... it might not even be the right term. Well, so I think we don't... I think I'm right in saying we don't fully understand why all galaxies, as you said-... maybe there's an exception, but w- m- all galaxies have a black hole, a super massive black hole in the center. It's obviously got something to do with the way they form. And one of the purposes, by the way, of the James Webb Space Telescope is to try to look at the formation of the first galaxies. So, that's what, one of the reasons that telescope is up there. So, so w- it's, it's cutting edge research. We're trying to understand how the galaxies form. But I, I, clearly, you're right, that there, it has something to do with the way the galaxies form-
And it's-
... in the early universe.
... pulling in stars.
Well, they, they, they do pull in material.
Right.
But they, i- if you've got stuff orbiting around them, it stays orbiting around it.
Oh.
So, the, the, the way we first detected the one in the Milky Way, before we could, w- p- 'cause that image is very new that we have of it, is it's the stars orbiting it very close to it, and they're called the S stars, that whiz around in these orbits very close to the black hole. So, so if you just-
Imagine that view.
... orbiting around a thing, you go-
Imagine that view.
Yeah, 'cause you don't-
You think it's weird to look at the moon? Imagine if there was a super massive black hole above our head.
It'd be so cool.
(laughs) It would be so cool.
I, I'd love to see one. I, I don't even-
Well, the moon's so cool. Uh, the eclipse was wild. We had the eclipse here in Texas.
Did you see it?
Oh, yeah. It was incredible. It's so strange. The whole day turns into night, all the birds stop chirping, and you're like staring up at this perfect eclipse. It was incredible.
D- did you get this? 'Cause I, I saw one in India, and I got this feeling that I was l- living on a ball of rock.
Right.
Because, uh, and it must have been, just 'cause the night just falls.
Right.
And suddenly you see the universe comes much more quickly.
I went to the Keck Observatory once in Hawaii. I've been a few times, but one time I went on the perfect night with no moon, and it was sensational.
Yeah.
It was the most incr- ... It was such a vivid image of the inc- entire Milky Way, and ev- the enti- every inch of the sky was covered in stars.
Yeah.
It was so phenomenal, and it made me a little upset, because I was like, this is above our head every day, and this would radically shape the way human beings feel about our place in the universe.
- 30:00 – 45:00
And you could also…
- HOHost
from being able to manipulate stars, we can manipulate planets. So we, we are changing the way this planet operates. Life has changed it. The, the oxygen in the atmosphere before we appeared, the oxygen in the atmosphere is a products of life. So life already we know changes planets. And so that, that specu- I like that speculation that possi- just possibly-... it's not just a temporary little phenomena that flickers in and out and then disappears again. It could drop a, a real bearing on the future of the universe.
And you could also make the argument that intelligent life might be the universe's way to force change, that intelligent life seems to inevit- ... Like, intelligence itself m- must come out of curiosity, because otherwise there's no reason to seek information. So intelligent life consistently seeks information and then it constantly demands innovation. Like, intelligent life is not satisfied with the iPhone 14, it wants the 15, it wants the 16, it wants to keep going-
(laughs)
... forever and ever and ever. Well, if you scale that up, you get this current dilemma that we're in, which is artificial intelligence, and the concept of sentient artificial intelligence, and then quantum computing. And you get, you get insane amounts of computing power powered by nuclear reactors that are essentially a life form. Well, if that thing says, "You guys are doing it all wrong, I got a better way," and it starts making better versions-
(laughs)
... of itself 'cause it's sentient, if you scale up a thousand years from now, you could imagine it becoming God. The ... Like, a godlike property. Like, an unstoppable force that has access to every element in known space.
Uh, I'm, I'm really interested in these kind of arguments. You, you put it really well, actually, be-
It's fascinating, right? Because it scales up-
... 'cause it really is.
... if you go from ... Look, just in the time that human ... Like, in the 4 billion years, which is a blip in the universe, right? And I wanted to ask you about that too. We'll get to that, the, the actual ... The James Webb Telescope's-
Mm-hmm.
... latest, uh ... But if ... Just take that. Okay, life has been around for what? 4 billion years?
Yeah.
That's not that long. So 4 billion years, we've gone some single-celled organisms to the James Webb Telescope.
Hm.
We've gone to ... We have Starlink, we have electric cars. It's like bananas.
Yeah.
You could imagine, if we had another 10 billion years to exist.
Uh, well, exactly. And this is the point that David Deutsch made in the, in the book I've just been reading, and, and John Barry and Frank Tipler made before that. That y- i- it ... Although it sounds insane-
Right.
... th- as you said, uh, and, and that 4 billion years, there's a lot to say about that, by the way, because for, for 3 billion-plus years of that, on this planet, it was just single cells. And so, uh, so it's only in the last, let's say, a billion years, but actually a bit less, that we've had multicellular organisms. So three quarters of it, of the time, were just single-celled things.
That's even crazier.
So wh- which is one of the reasons that many people think civilizations might be rare, because i- if you just t- ... The only evidence we have is this planet.
Right.
And the evidence on this planet is that single-celled life is, is sort of the way that things are for most, most of the history. And then, so it seems like a, a, a f- ... An accident, in a way, that happened late on in the history of life on Earth-
(laughs)
... that produced multicellular life. And, and now, whether ... Is that typical? W- we don't know. Maybe it was ... Took a longer time here than it m- might do somewhere else. But if it's typical, I mean, 4 billion years, you said it, it's not a long time, it is a third of the age of the universe. So here, it took-
When you put it that way, it's a long time. (laughs)
... a thir- one-third of the age of the universe to go from the origin of life to a civilization.
Mm-hmm.
- 45:00 – 1:00:00
Mm-hmm. …
- HOHost
it's like a natural human instinct. Like, we had to protect the food sources, we had to fight off the conquering tribes, you had to protect your DNA line. All these things are why we became innovative.
Mm-hmm.
We had a motivation to stay alive, and to thrive. And then there's bastardizations of those motivations, like the stock market, where things get we- and you're just competing over numbers. It gets really weird.
Mm-hmm.
But it's basically this desire to compete with the DNA that's around you. Once we're not biological anymore, like, what would be the motivation? And would we not just exist, like in the most peaceful, zen, Buddhist way possible? Which is what everybody who's like a spiritual person, who meditates all the time, that's what you strive for.
Yeah.
You strive for this complete abandonment of self, this complete emptiness and one with the universe. If we could just exist like that, why would we need to go to space?
It's, it's a wonderful argument, isn't it? That our humanity, so the ... 'Cause part of the thing that you described, th- this, this desire to create things and build things and explore and expand i- is, is almost the definition of being human, isn't it?
Yes.
And so, th- the idea that if you remove all threat and you essentially become immortal-
Yes.
... then, w- you're almost saying, "What's the point?" It's my T-shirt.
Yeah.
It's the existence. What does it matter, right?
(laughs)
And, by the way, that's a ... This T-shirt, which I- I gotta say was designed by a friend of mine, Peter Saville, who's a great designer, who designed the Joy Division: Unknown Pleasures album cover, amongst other things.
Oh, wow. That's cool.
And this is, this is a Joy Divi- it's a Joy Division legend.
That's great. Is that available on your website or anything?
It probably is, but I'm not gonna do that-
Okay. (laughs)
... 'cause it's vulgar, isn't it? It's vulgar.
It's ... No, no, no, it's cool. I wanna buy one.
He ma-
That's why I ask.
Yeah, he made it for a ... We did these gigs, I talk about it, and later called Symphonic Horizons, which were the, uh, uh, shows with cosmology but also symphony orchestra. And he was exploring these issues, actually.
Mm-hmm.
But most of the music was Strauss' Zarathustra.
Oh, wow.
Which is based on Nietzsche's book, per- so it's, it's kind of e- e- e- exploring these questions, actually, of what's the point of existence.
- 1:00:00 – 1:15:00
But why... Don't... Isn't…
- HOHost
feel there was no point in existing at all. 'Cause I-
But why... Don't... Isn't that a human thing, this idea of a point? Like, I make this argument with people. Pe- th- there's, uh, a Buddhist concept that you... I think it's Buddhism, or some strains of Buddhism, where you, you live your life over and over and over and over again until you get it right.
Hmm.
Until every time something comes up, you make the right decision, you achieve enlightenment. You do it over. And I said that to someone, and they were horrified. They're like, "Oh my God, could you imagine living life over again, starting off as a baby, going through high school again? Oh, I couldn't do it."
(laughs)
I'm like, "But you did it, and you're alive now." Like, I really enjoy life. I have great friends. I have a great family. I have a fantastic job. I live in a great place. Like, if I had to keep doing this forever, why would that be horrible? I like doing it every day. Why would I not like doing it? I don't understand. Like, I don't understand this idea that if something is infinite and it goes on for an ever... that's terrifying. Whereas if it's existing right now, right now, you're, I know you're gonna get tired, and I know you're gonna go to bed, I know you're gonna get hungry, I know you're gonna eat, but you're just existing.... it's, it's this state of existence that varies depending on emotions and mood and stress levels and environment, but it's just existence.
But s-
If existence was eternal, and it just kept going on and on, why would that be terrifying for you when you're enjoying it now?
But if you think about some of the things that make us... The, the most important things that make us human.
Uh-huh.
So one of them would be hope, for example.
Right.
Hope for the future. Or indeed, fear, or th- those emotions that are connected with not knowing.
Right.
Not knowing what's around the next corner. As you said, even exploration.
Right.
The, uh... So if you remove that, if, if you remove any sense of not knowing what the future will be, you do remove hope as well as fear. So you could argue that some of the best... Th- the essence of being human, some of the things that we value the most-
Right.
... and make us most valuable in, in the universe, in this sense, some of those things come from incomplete knowledge. I mean, surely hope does.
Sure.
How could you have hope and excitement about what's gonna happen tomorrow if you know what's gonna happen tomorrow?
But don't you think that that just-
It might be a miserable existence.
... motivates improvement, that all that hope just motivates you to do better and get better? And do, don't you think that may be a feature of a biological organism?
But it's, it's like you said, it's like you said, when you, when you, when you were growing up, you said, like, uh, you know when you were in high school or when you were young, Christmas, for example.
Right.
You know when you're... Christmas Eve.
Yeah.
And you go, "What am I gonna get tomorrow?"
Yeah.
- 1:15:00 – 1:16:54
(laughs) …
- HOHost
pattern. Well, we think now, from the study of black holes, that space and time emerge from something else, which is kind of ... The one way to describe it is just a quantum theory. So it's, uh, in quantum computing terms, it would be just qubits. So a network of qubits entangled together, just like a quantum computer. Out of that, we suspect that space and time might emerge. So surely, we have to understand that process, and we don't really fully understand that, but we have glimpses of it in much more detail to start talking about the origin of time. 'Cause in order to talk about the origin of time, you have to know what it is.
(laughs)
And we don't actually know what it is, which is, you know ... And that's kind of ... Uh, when you say that, it sounds bizarre, doesn't it? Well, how can you not know what time is? I think Einstein once said that it is the thing that you measure on a watch. But he said that as kind of, uh, almost a joke, because he, you assume in Einstein's theory, there's a thing that the watch measures. But what actually it is at the deepest level is a good question. So, but it's funny. It's interesting that study of black holes is forcing us towards these theories. It's not that we had the theory of space and time emerging from something and found ... And decided we could check it by thinking about black holes. It's come the other way round, really. Um, so, so it's, it's interesting. But that, that almost makes the universe look, in some ways, like a, a giant quantum computer, which is not to say that we live in a simulation (laughs) , right? Before you ask.
(laughs)
Uh, but, but it just looks like ... There's a description of the universe that looks like a quantum computer type description. Now, that doesn't have the concept of space or time in it.
Is it possible that that is what it is, and that the universe was created? And that-
Episode duration: 2:55:32
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