EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,160 words- 0:00 – 2:48
Fetterman’s signature look: hoodies, shorts, and Senate dress-code blowups
- JRJoe Rogan
(drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.
- JFJohn Fetterman
The Joe Rogan Experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music plays) All right, man, we're rolling. What's happenin'? Nice to meet ya.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Oh, hey man. It's so, it's awesome to be here, man, really. Yeah, like, I gotta say hi to my, my son is just so thrilled. He's like, you know, he's 15 and he literally freaked out. He's like, "Oh my God," and all, and all of his friends are gonna definitely be watching too.
- JRJoe Rogan
What's his name?
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
What's his name?
- JFJohn Fetterman
Karl with a K, and I-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JFJohn Fetterman
... I met a, I met a Carl in the lobby, but, uh, it's a C, but, uh (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
That's a, not a human. A non-human Carl, yeah. Well, what's up, human Carl?
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, so first of all, are you the only guy that figured out that you don't have to wear suits when you're a senator?
- JFJohn Fetterman
Uh, yeah, no, it's, it's, uh... I'm sorry, what was that, s-?
- JRJoe Rogan
I said, are you the only guy that figured out that you don't have to wear suits as a senator?
- JFJohn Fetterman
Oh, okay. (laughs) Yeah, no, I, well, I, I know it might, it seems, uh, strange, but it's like, uh, I mean, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a bigger guy, and, and I don't really can't afford c- uh, custom anyway. And I hate, uh, I'm claustrophobic and I hate them being in that kind of shit. And, uh, I've always dressed like, like shit, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JFJohn Fetterman
... you know, and, and I know, and, and then that whole thing kind of got away, uh, of us, um, people assumed that there was a, a dress code issue there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JFJohn Fetterman
And I'm like, "No, I wasn't behind that, behind that." But, of course, everybody pointed at the, at the dude that dresses like a slob.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JFJohn Fetterman
And, and, and then the whole, the whole nation just had like a meltdown, like, "Oh my God, the Senate's on fire because, uh, I dress like a slob." Uh, but, but, uh, my life is just much better in DC that unless that I'm gonna be on the floor, that I'm not gonna be, (laughs) you're never gonna see me in a suit. And, uh, I think that's a more authentic kind of way that I live. And, uh, I don't judge anybody on how they dress or those things. Uh, I, I just dress this way and there's also practical issues as well too. Like, I have, I have chopstick legs and I have no ass, and I can't keep pants up. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JFJohn Fetterman
And, and, and hoodies, and hoodies, it's like I don't have to iron that shit. You know, so, it, it's just like easy, it's comfort. And it's like, uh, I just feel like that's, I mean... And if somebody judged me, and people have said that, uh, but it's like I'd rather have somebody know. And I, I promise you, a lot of people and dudes, eh, especially in Western Pennsylvania, love to wear suits all year. I mean, uh, excuse me, shorts all year, uh, and dress like that. But, eh, to me it's about comfort and practical.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I mean, it makes sense. The, the whole dress code thing, wearing suits, and you're, you're more serious because you have certain clothing on, it seems pretty silly.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Uh, uh, I'm sorry, what's that? (laughs)
- 2:48 – 5:39
Living with stroke aftereffects: captioning as an accessibility tool
- JRJoe Rogan
Are you... So, let's, let's tell everybody what's going on with your iPad. So because you had a stroke, you have-
- JFJohn Fetterman
Oh yeah, h-
- JRJoe Rogan
... difficulty. Do you have difficulty hearing, or?
- JFJohn Fetterman
Well, no, I can hear just p- I can hear just perfectly r- right now. Uh, and, uh, but, uh, th- there's just, uh, the one kind of a lingering issue. There's a lingering issue, um, and, and sometimes I lose just a couple steps on time. And then now, after that, that's the only thing. And thankfully, the stroke never touched my intellect things. Uh, uh, but the, but the stroke nearly killed me. And again, I don't... Uh, but, uh, I use captioning in situations just like this, uh, in interviews. That's, so that's why I can, I can really make sure exactly what's being said. And then I can able, uh, just participate. If somebody wears the glasses, it doesn't mean that they're illiterate, it just means they just, that's a tool that allows them to partic-icipate, or drive or those things. And it's that same thing, and a lot of people across America use captioning to watch movies and TV, and that's really no different than that.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, it doesn't affect your intellect, but it do- does affect your hearing? Is that what's going on?
- JFJohn Fetterman
Uh, n- no. I, I can hear and I can listen to music. The difference with music, for example, is, is that as long as there's muscle memory, I, I can, I can remember all those kinds of music things. But it seems unlikely at this point that it's, uh, there are not gonna be any kind of new, new favorites, uh, emerging like that because-
- JRJoe Rogan
So you essentially-
- JFJohn Fetterman
... I, I can't, yeah-
- JRJoe Rogan
... only can listen to the same old music forever?
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah, no, it, it, it's, yeah, it's, uh, yeah, it... I, I mean, uh, all of the, all the classics like, you know, Metallica, Motorhead, Motorhead, uh, The Cult, uh, all those kinds of things. Like I haven't lost any of, you know, the... Def, Def Lepp and those things. Well, and I, I saw the, the, uh, the record of Whiters- uh, excuse me, Whitesnake, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JFJohn Fetterman
Uh, but all those things, yeah, no. I mean, I mean, I, I think we're both in the 50s, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JFJohn Fetterman
And, you know, we grew up with-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JFJohn Fetterman
... with the, with The Crew and, and all those kinds of things. So, um, uh, some, some people might judge me based on my, my tastes on music, but (laughs) I mean, uh, that's, that's kind of where it's at.
- JRJoe Rogan
Listen, people are gonna judge you no matter what. You're a big giant guy who wears hoodies and you're a senator. (laughs) Like, so like, no matter what, they're gonna judge you. Who cares? But I'm just trying to like understand like what, what is going on with the captioning because you, you can hear but so there's some sort of a disconnect between hearing and understanding? Like what is it?
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah, I wouldn't say it's necessarily a disconnect. It's just, it's, it's just about being precise-
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- JFJohn Fetterman
... on a, just to make sure that... So if, you know, if like for an interview just to make, make sure of those things. Uh, so it, it's really just about captioning. Uh, they're just, really, it's just a tool, no difference. I mean, for this, this is like my, my eyes, uh, in the sense for glasses that just-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, right. I understand.
- JFJohn Fetterman
...
- NANarrator
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So it just gives you a little bit more precision in what you're saying-
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah, yeah.
- 5:39 – 10:46
Stroke during the campaign: the near-death episode days before the primary
- JRJoe Rogan
... and understanding. What, what, what was it like running for senator right after recovering from a stroke? That had to be a nightmare.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Y- yeah, I, I don't recommend that. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JFJohn Fetterman
Uh, I, I, I, I don't recommend that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Because you seem to have recovered quite a bit-
- JFJohn Fetterman
Oh.
- JRJoe Rogan
... since then.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Oh yeah, no. Uh, uh, a hund-
- JRJoe Rogan
But during that time, you were really struggling, and-
- JFJohn Fetterman
Oh, s- sure. Abso- absolutely. Like, uh, it was, uh, uh, it was, uh, it was a rough, uh-... Conversation a- after that. Um, uh, they, they brought me into the hospital and then I, I went under, and then I, I woke up, uh, and they said, they l- uh, they said, "Hey, uh, we got it. We got it. We got the clot." The, the clot that, that essentially just about killed me. And I'm like, "Oh, that's good." Uh, and then just kinda went back under. And, uh, at, at that point, I had no idea where we were at on those things. Uh, and then I had, um... The next morning, I woke up, and then they, uh, a doctor came on. And he had kind of a, a grim kind of a look on his face and things, and my dad was there sitting next to me at the bed. And, and I was like, "Well, hey, Doc, I mean, what's, uh, what things... W- What do you think? What do you like?" Uh, and he's like, "Well, um, you know, your, your, your heart is functioning at an incredibly low kinds of percentage." Um, and, uh, and I'm like, "Well, um, uh, well, w- what do you th- well, what do you think?" And, and he was like, "Well, uh, you know, I mean, you know, there's some iss- issues." Uh, and I'm like, "Well, are we talking, you know, may- a year, a year kinda thing?" And, and he's like, "Mm, uh..." And I'm like, um...
- JRJoe Rogan
And this was all while you were running for Senate?
- JFJohn Fetterman
Uh, yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JFJohn Fetterman
This was, uh, this was after, this was after, this was after, this was, uh, three days before the primary.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh my God.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah. I was on my, I was on my way to an event. And, and my wife, Giselle, she, she's like, "You're, you're having a stroke." Because, uh, they had that classic kinds of, um, where, you know, half of my face, I didn't know that, but it kinda just s- uh, yeah, just s-
- JRJoe Rogan
Slumped?
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah. And, and, and then they hotlined me over to the hospital, and I wouldn't, I wouldn't have survived if we were in a different... I mean, there's parts of Pennsylvania, and that's a, that's part of the tragic, that, uh, if I wasn't close to the, uh, the kinds of hospital that I was, uh, it's 100% that, uh, I wouldn't have survived that. Uh...
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- JFJohn Fetterman
And they got me there in enough time, and they were able to... There was an expert there. And, and I, I actually had... I, I met that doctor that s- that literally saved my life. Uh, and, uh, I'm like, "Oh my God." Uh, and he usually wasn't based in that hospital. He was usually out of Delaware, but he happened to be there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- JFJohn Fetterman
And, and that, uh... And he was here to g- to give me an o- an award for, you know, b- you know, being that kind of a, an advocate for those things. I'm like, "No, the, you, you deserve, you deserve the award on that." And, and, uh, what, what-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's incredibly lucky.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah. And, mm-hmm. And then, um, and then I, I asked, uh, really looking for, like, a countdown of, like, "Well, what's the prognosis?" And, and I really, there wasn't much there on that, and I had to, like... Uh, w- was I going to sur- survive for long? Or, you know, what's that gonna look? And then, of course, um, the entire majority on the Senate really was on the middle of that. And that's a big responsibility after that. And then, uh, uh, so the, the primary, it happened, and then I actually had a, uh, a really strong win. And I won all of 67 counties. Uh, uh, uh, Pennsylvania has 67 counties, and we carried every county, uh, Ph- Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and all across Pennsylvania. Uh, but at that point, I had a responsibility. It's like, am I able to recover? Or where kind of, when I'm... Am I gonna be okay? And I wouldn't recommend being in that, in that situation, but I, I made a, a commitment. Uh, m- more than anything, I was more worried o- about being, being around, to be a dad. I mean, I have three, I have three young kids, and my, my wife, you know, she lived through all of this. So at, at that, at that point, um, uh, uh, it, it started... I was in the hospital for about 10 days.
- JRJoe Rogan
Geez.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Uh, yeah. And I start to get better and better. The, the strength started to come back a little bit, but I, it was still rough. And it was very, very clear though that I had a capacity to... It's been impaired on, on hearing and those kinds of interaction and those things. Uh, so, uh, but, but, but that's the thing. But, but I had to decide by August 15th, and that's actually, that's my birthday, ironically, that, uh, if I, I step down, uh, by then or before, then they're gonna have to find somebody to replace me on the primary, and that was gonna be my drop, uh, my dropout day on that.
- 10:46 – 17:32
Medical details: clot removal, heart complications, and getting a pacemaker
- JRJoe Rogan
So, what was the operation? How did they do it? How did they remove the clot?
- JFJohn Fetterman
Uh, uh, well, it, it, it's, uh, I, it's un... I mean, I had to originally... Uh, I had to go back to... I have to learn how to, how to talk and speak. Uh, uh, you know, I went to a, a speech therapist and have interaction and those kinds of things. Uh, and my hearing and those kinds of things were still impacted by that. And they had to monitor my heart, because it was, uh, it, it effectively st- uh, stopped. I found out after the fact that it had actually stopped. And then, uh, that... My heart had to recover. So there was two kinds of things working there, you know, my, my heart. And then, right before the primary, they walked in and they said, "Well, here, here's what I suggest. Here's what I suggest. Now, we are going to put, uh, a pacemaker. We're gonna put in a pacemaker." And, uh, and we're like, "Hey, that's, that's the best thing." So they, they put that device right here, and for anyone, if you're not really what that is, a pacemaker, but that, that, uh, that manages your heart. You know, 'cause I had a significant issue with AFib, and, and that's really what, what did that to my heart. And, uh, they put that in, and then, uh, that was, that was, um, that was right before the primary, and they put me under and I, uh...
- JRJoe Rogan
So, what year was this?
- JFJohn Fetterman
Uh, uh, uh, uh, this was, uh, '22. 2022.
- JRJoe Rogan
And-
- JFJohn Fetterman
And before you had this stroke, had you ever had any issues before with clotting or anything like... was this like a- No. Not with clotting, not with clotting. You know, my... I have, for good re- for good things and for, for bad things, my heart was just like my father's, you know? And he had an issue with AFib, and he was in the hospital for-
- JRJoe Rogan
So it's a genetic.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah, a genetic. And, uh, uh, but I didn't... I... It was never an idea, it was never an idea that, uh, I was going to even having a stroke. That, that wasn't part of the, at least my thinking. I, I knew that I was in distress, you know, I could tell that my heart was, was, was, was in problem, and I was just going to get through this primary. I mean, there's a lot riding on that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Uh, and then that's... uh, that... it didn't work out, because the stroke hit three days before, and, and then that forced me, uh... and that put me on an incredibly different kind of a, of a path after that.
- JRJoe Rogan
And so where do they go in when they're removing the clot? Do they have to cut your skull open? Like, how do they get it out of there?
- JFJohn Fetterman
Uh, They went up, they went up, uh, uh, in your vein, in your leg, and they went up in-
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- JFJohn Fetterman
And, and it's just... it's a remarkable technology that, that-
- JRJoe Rogan
Through your leg?
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah, uh, uh, leg.
- JRJoe Rogan
All the way up to your brain?
- JFJohn Fetterman
And, and they just sucked it out, and they-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- JFJohn Fetterman
They, they actually had, uh, uh, an X-, an X-ray or whatever, and you could see that, "Hey, we got it out." And I actually got to see, uh, although I really was still kind of out of it, but that was the clot that, that all but took, uh, took my life. And, uh, so I, I mean, there, there were a lot of things there. You know, suddenly, your, your mortality was kind of, like, put right there in front of it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Uh, uh, and through that, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Did they have any idea what caused the clot? Is there... do they understand, like, what happened to you? I'm always... My, my, my grandmother, uh, had an aneurysm, and, uh, it was a horrible situation. They didn't find her, um, for several hours. Uh, afterwards, my grandfather came home, and she wasn't in the house, and then he found her in the backyard. She had collapsed, and they gave her 72 hours to live, and she lived for 12 years like that, and it was horrible. My grandfather had to take care of her. It was, it was really, really rough. So I'm always, like, really concerned with that kind of stuff. Like I don't... like what causes it? Do they know?
- JFJohn Fetterman
Uh, yeah, well, i- i- it's... I, I, I mean, I, I had, uh, for the first time in my life, and I hope it's the last time, that I'm, uh, confronted by this idea that the, the doctors weren't, uh, uh, able to provide any kinds of certainty or it's like, "Oh yeah, man, you're gonna be okay," or "Things are gonna be okay." That, that wasn't, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
So they don't know what caused it? It just happened.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Well, I mean, it, it was AFib, and, and, and my heart weakened, and the stress of the, of the primary, and on the ongoing kinds of issues, uh, it was already weakened about that issue earlier, and everything kind of came together, and my... I guess my heart deteriorated to the point where that, uh, that caused, uh, the clot.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- JFJohn Fetterman
And then, uh, the clot, that's what nearly took my, took my life.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whew. So then you have to go to work. So now you are an elected senator, and you have to go to work in the middle of recovery.
- JFJohn Fetterman
I- yeah, uh, it, it's, uh... I, I, I think, uh... I, I mean, it, it, it's, it's so diff- it's... Uh, I had a significant responsibility, uh, uh, to, to stay in that and, and winning through all of those things, uh, and that's... that was, uh, that was difficult enough. Um, it was an important conversation, and we had to run a campaign. We had to run a campaign, uh, when I was... it was difficult, uh, and I wasn't working at the kind of capacity that was necessary, uh, and that's, uh... We had to run up to the, um, the 15th of August to decide if we're going to stay in that, because there's a lot riding on that.
- 17:32 – 20:58
Campaigning against Dr. Oz: “New Jersey,” viral hits, and debate strategy
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah, I think we're... I think we are good. Seems good to me. I think we're good to go. We- We'll take the headphones off. Yeah, we put this on the Wi-Fi, so-
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- JFJohn Fetterman
And it's, it's working great here.
- JRJoe Rogan
All right, we're back. So what I was just saying, that it was odd that you were running against Dr. Oz, and he was this kind of-
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah, Dr. Oz, yeah. (laughs) I mean, uh, Dr. Oz.
- JRJoe Rogan
Weird guy.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah, and, and he's... Uh, he used to be... you know, people used to thought he was like, really brilliant. I mean, he was like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JFJohn Fetterman
He was like an amazing kind of surgeon, uh, ce- celebrity, and then he turned his career into, like, on TV, and then he started to pitch more kinds of-
- JRJoe Rogan
Bullshit.
- JFJohn Fetterman
... pushable kinds of things and kind of bullshit kind of stuff.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Uh, and I, I don't understand why somebody would, would change, uh, his reputation. I mean, he was really revered in, in that, uh, and I was... I wouldn't even be c- I would have been comfortable to him, uh, (laughs) operate on me. Uh, but, uh, but he kind of lost that. And what was also pretty funny is that he clearly... he lived in New Jersey.And (laughs) so we were just like, "Hey, we, we need to use that and point out that." So, uh, uh, we just... we decided early on that we are gonna just like, hey, you know, it matters. It's like, I mean, there's nothing wrong with living on New Jersey, but it... there probably is an, an issue if you're running for, for the Senate.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JFJohn Fetterman
So we... And, And I really have like an, an ethos is that I'm, um, I'm not ever gonna be mean, and I'm not gonna be personal about that. So we tried to have a lot of fun with the fact that he lives in New Jersey, and we just really, uh, just kept hitting him, hitting him. And I... We had... Snooki did, like, a cameo saying, "Gee, Mehmet, good luck. Uh, you know, I know it's... things are going rough now, but you're gonna be able to come back to New Jersey." And, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JFJohn Fetterman
... that got viral. And we did a lot of those viral kinds of, of moments. Um, and you know, they have this thing where they have what's really penetrated and, you know, they have circles on things like what, what's really part of... like people are asking about Dr. Oz, and one of the zeros... uh, the O's was he's weird, but the biggest one, New Jersey.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JFJohn Fetterman
I mean, literally New Jersey was.
- JRJoe Rogan
That was the biggest one?
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah, like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, Pennsylvania and New Jersey, even though they're neighbors, they do have a bit of a rivalry.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Uh, yeah. Well, of course. And, you know, people have to understand that it's like, it's like that funny thing, and I mean, it, it borders with, with Pennsylvania and, and that... it really matters. It matters that-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JFJohn Fetterman
And of course, uh, Dr. Oz was... uh, he was strange, uh, in some sense, and we always tried to have fun with making fun of him. Are you a fan... Are you a fan of The Simpsons?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah. But we, we matched up perfectly with Dr. Nick, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JFJohn Fetterman
... Dr. Nick, Dr. Oz. And we found all the, the weird shit that Dr. Nick would say, and then they have a clip of Dr. Oz saying those kinds of things, and, and then... and then that's... (laughs) that's where it was. And we had a lot of fun with that, and things... We, we all figured out, well, um, we have... we've... essentially, we chose to kind of empty the clip, uh, metaphorically, and really start hitting him, you know. We went up on TV throughout the summer, and he was really put on his back, uh, and he was essentially thinking he could kind of take, take the, the summer off. And then our polling, we got up about 10, 11 points and, and things, you know... If anyone's listening, ever heard of the 538, you know, they, they track on those, those races, and the highest percentage we had to win was I think about 84%. And things kept running great, really, really, uh, great. And then I had to decide on my birthday, on August 15th, and things were going so well, and I thought things... I'm like, okay. Uh, then we decided
- 20:58 – 29:30
The money war: PAC spending, Citizens United, and politics as paid destruction
- JFJohn Fetterman
to stay on that race, uh, and that's... and that's what we did. Uh, and then (laughs) , you know, post-Labor Day when... and, oh, my gosh, uh, we just got... uh, we got nuked in, in a way that, uh, it's never been, uh, experienced that before. And then-
- JRJoe Rogan
How so? What do you mean?
- JFJohn Fetterman
Oh, uh, $100 million of paid media to destroy you. I mean, just tear you apart, every aspect of your life.
- JRJoe Rogan
$100 million they spent?
- JFJohn Fetterman
$100 million.
- JRJoe Rogan
To... For a job that pays how much?
- JFJohn Fetterman
Uh, yeah. Oh, ju-... Oh, it came from, from PACs, from-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JFJohn Fetterman
... Dr. Oz. Dr. Oz put in 20... I think $28 million.
- JRJoe Rogan
How crazy is that? Because, like, what is Senate... wha- what does it pay being a senator?
- JFJohn Fetterman
Uh, your pay being a senator?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Uh, it's, it's $174,000.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) If it's anything-
- JFJohn Fetterman
Can you-
- JRJoe Rogan
Like-
- JFJohn Fetterman
Can, can I talk about this?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes, please.
- JFJohn Fetterman
I, I don't understand why... You know, some incredibly wealthy dudes will spend tens and tens of millions of dollars just to, to, to take that, and I, I try to, uh, tell people, okay, there's no glamour here. Uh, I just talked about that in a... an interview.
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you think he wanted to become president, and this was like a step-
- JFJohn Fetterman
Uh... I... I mean, I mean-
- JRJoe Rogan
... to being president?
- JFJohn Fetterman
... I guess everybody wants the Iron Throne. I, I get it, but it's, it's-
- JRJoe Rogan
The Iron Throne. (laughs)
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah. It's, it's really not... Uh, and... but it also... it's a different... it's a different kinds of, uh, skills, uh, and it, it really doesn't transfer over very well, uh, on that. But right now in, in Pennsylvania, right now, uh, David McCormick, a Connecticut man, Connecticut man, he's running in Pennsylvania, and he lives in Connecticut, and he's incredibly wealthy. I think he's worth three or $400 million, and he's spending... the same race in Wisconsin, they're dropping crazy... And, and really, like, that's an important conversation that the real problem in American politics for me is, is, uh, Citizens, uh, United and unlimited money. Uh, when, when they decided that money is speech, and now that turns the whole thing in a, uh, an incredibly damaging... Uh, right now, there's been at least more than half a billion dollars, half a billion dollars on the table in Pennsylvania just for president, not, uh, not, not just... not just, uh, the Senate races and other House states. And, and I was the most... at least at that point, was the most expensive Senate race in history, and they... it was over 300, uh, $330 million, uh, for, for that one seat. And all of those dollars, uh, they're spent to destroy and tear you apart. And then, uh, Fox News, I was their top, top target for four months, and social media, and I, I stayed out of that. I, I, I didn't enjoy it, but, uh, social media, all the conservative influencers, everything, uh, and it just tore me apart. And at that point, at the end of September, um, it, it was, uh... I mean, I, I couldn't get away from it, and, uh, it really... it's like until you've had $100 million to, to destroy you, it's, it's a... it's a next level kind of thing. And then everyone was... they were saying, "Well, he's a vegetable," you know, "He's a retard," or "He's lost his, his brain," and all kinds of things, and then that wasn't true. Uh, but, but the kinds of terrible things and those kinds of very personal things, and it just got incredibly ugly, uh, in a way.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wha- Yeah, that has got to be a terrible experience.... to, to realize that there's so much money being spent just to attack you, and that you're, you're a part of this very, very large and corrupt machine that's going after you just because they want to control the state. And it's a giant swing state, of course.
- JFJohn Fetterman
It, it was-
- JRJoe Rogan
And, uh-
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah. The senate, the whole senate.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 29:30 – 35:12
Before Washington: social work, Braddock, and a politics for forgotten towns
- JRJoe Rogan
What was your background before you got into politics?
- JFJohn Fetterman
I was a social, I was a social worker. Uh, and I, I, I came to a very, uh, a very deeply broken and fractioned, uh, fractor, uh, c- community. And I actually started helping young men and women get their, uh, GEDs and just kind of getting their lives back on track in that sense. Uh, and then that's why I, uh, I did that for several, several years. And then I decided I wanted to run for mayor, and mayor of a, of a small, of a, of a small town. And, uh, we had problems with, uh, inequality, uh, in a community that 90%, uh, of the population, uh, abandoned the community and left.
- JRJoe Rogan
(clears throat)
- JFJohn Fetterman
And if anyone's aware of the US Steel, I mean, I live right now across the street from that iconic steel mill. I mean, that's really what, that, that used to be America's Silicon Valley, like, uh, ha- about half of the world's steel used to be manufactured there. Uh, but now so much has changed. Uh, and then I ran for mayor in a small town mayor, and, and then that turned into, well, I decided like the kinds of issues that were meaningful to me and the personal kinds of experiences, I, I just thought, uh, hey, I want to project my kinds of experiences and my values. And I started, uh, to... I ran for, I ran for the first time in 2016. I ran for the senate. I mean, it's pretty kind of strange that you have a small town mayor running for the United States Senate.And, uh, but I mean, we had no money. I mean, zero, zero money on that. But we just, we'd had a really, like, grassroots kind of a thing, and we got out across Pennsylvania, and we, uh, we came up a little short, but we, we pulled in 20% of the, of the votes, which that was pretty, pretty ... People thought that was pretty remarkable, and I carried my home, uh, county, which is Allegheny. That's the second-largest. And that really kinda set the stage, uh, to run for lieutenant governor a couple years later after 2016. But 2016, though, that was where America met Donald Trump, and, and I was, I was early, you know, uh, turning the alarm off, saying, "Hey, we have to be concerned here." Like, you know, Trump has connected with people, uh, in ways, uh, that it's like, we have to be concerned. And I'll never forget, it was June in 2016, and I was a, I was a, I was a surrogate for, uh, for Clinton, and, and Trump announced, "Hey, I'm showing up in a town called Monessen, Monessen," which is a small, uh, steel town in the valley do- down from, from ours. And I'm like, "Why the ... Why is he showing up in ... Uh, I mean, that's not ... Uh, like, so either he's crazy or they've, they've plugged into something, and, like, I have to see that." So I, I tried to get into that just to kinda see what was going on, but, uh, they, they recognized me and they said, "Yeah, get the fuck out."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JFJohn Fetterman
Uh ... (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
But you're hard to hide. (laughs)
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah, yeah, and, and so but, but there, like, they figured out that they have to connect and to make that kind of an argument to go to these kind of, uh, uh, places, and it, it, it, it did. It resonated, and you started to see a lot of the signs and a lot of the energy, and it's like, "Hey," you know, "there's, there's a, there's a problem." Uh, and the, the Clinton campaign, uh, everybody assumed that she was gonna, you know, run away with it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JFJohn Fetterman
And, and they made, they made the, the mistake of just showing up in Philadelphia, Philadelphia, and Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh, and assumed that they were gonna be okay, but, but a lot had slipped. And now, the margins ... Trump created, uh, r- margins that were unheard. Uh, like, you know, we referred to them as Romney margins, so in other words, you have red counties and Romney would c- uh, they would cover those by about 60 to 65%, and Trump did. He created 80s, 80s. We were losing 80/20, 80/20, and, like, well, yeah, that's a small county, but yeah, you multiple that by 57, 57 other counties, and that's how they scale up, and that's how he won, and he won by 45,000 votes. And that's why he captured the blue wall and that made him president, and here we are right now. The, the, the blue wall is ... They're both fighting on the, the blue wall, and the blue wall is Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hm. When, when you were running, wh- uh, d- during 2016, what were you trying to accomplish? Like, what did, what did you want to do that you felt-
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... like you could uniquely provide a service for?
- JFJohn Fetterman
Uh, well, it wasn't ... I just think it was just different. I'm like, "Hey, I was running, I was running for about forg- uh, forgotten places, people where America's turned their backs on them, and talking about those, those kinds of important issues, like a living wage, um, abandoning, uh, the industrial parts of, of America." You know, uh, some people watching, uh, what, what things have been left behind in places like Braddock, it's like, uh ... It's astonishing. Uh, 90% of people left, and 90% of the buildings are gone, and that whole region has just been, uh, just, uh, thrown, thrown away. Uh, so I just wanted ... Uh, I didn't th- ... Uh, you know, there was a path. I mean, there were two other people, uh, in the primary, uh, and I thought I could maybe split, I could split the other two and just sneak by and get 33% plus one extra vote, but I, I came up a little short because I had no money because it's always going to be about money. Uh, and then, uh, Katie McGinty, she won, but she lost, and, and then that ... That was that same cycle, and then, um, in that, the same year that, that Trump won.
- 35:12 – 49:03
Freshman senator reality + mental health: depression, Walter Reed, and self-harm honesty
- JRJoe Rogan
And so since you've been in, since you've gotten into the Senate, what meaningful change have you been able to accomplish there?
- JFJohn Fetterman
Well, uh, again, you're, you're a freshman, and, you know, my colleague and one that was, was just here, uh, uh, Senator Vance. I mean, we were both in the same cycle. We both ran in '22, so we've both there for less than two years, and y- it's really based on seniority, and it's just kinda like, "Hey, get on the end of that line," (laughs) you know? Uh, so you are a freshman, and it's, you know, your influence is, you know, at least, uh, in the institution are, are limited in some sense. But if you have a bigger platform, and I did, and I'd try to have those kinds of impacts and having those conversations, but my, my first couple, uh, first half of that first year, uh, that was a, a little, took a different, uh, detour, uh, because, you know, I, I was dealing with, uh, with depression. I was, uh, de- depression, and I realized that I was in a, in a bad place. Uh, so, so having that, uh, having to make those kinda choices, and I signed myself into Walter Reed to get help because the depression and, and, um ... So I, I think, uh, it's an important conversation.And I knew... I, I thought at that time, it could be... politically, it could be difficult. Uh, but I thought it was important and, and now if that costs me something politically, I'm okay. Uh, so that's why I'm continuing. So how I've... the impact I've had, I never fully expected that that voice would, would break through. And I'm, I'm in contact with people constantly saying, "Thank you for, for talking about this." Um, "I chose to get help." Um, or, "I, I chose not to, to, uh, follow that path on self-harm." And, uh, so I've had active conversations with member of Congress or fathers with, with younger kids and they're like, "Hey, can you please talk?" And I, and I do that. I'm happy to talk to anybody. And, and so that's a way I've had an impact through, through all of that. And also my voice through, uh, after what happened on 10/07th, uh, uh, you know, October 7th. Uh, and I've decided I was gonna be a very consistent voice, uh, for, for Israel through that. So, that's why kind of like the platform, but in terms of if anyone's being honest, whether it was, uh, Senator Vance or any kinds of freshmen, uh, senators, it's very limited because otherwise, there's people that have been there for 25, 30 years. They are the ones that are gonna be the chairman. And if you're a minority party, you have incredibly limited kinds of ability to, to, to move a... an agenda.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, the, the depression thing, I think, it's very important, eh, that you talked about that. I think, uh, transparency is something that people really appreciate. Uh, so many people suffer from depression. It's such a normal part of being a human being. And for a guy like you who's a senator, who's already gone through being attacked, already gone through all these, uh, uh, horrible things that they said about you while you were recovering from a stroke, it takes a lot of courage to, to come out and discuss that.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Well, I-
- JRJoe Rogan
I think it's really important. I'm, I'm really glad you did it.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Well, I don't... uh, uh, well, thank you, but, uh, I don't think it was really c- courage. It's like I only had a choice. I, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
But it is courage because you, you know you're gonna be publicly attacked and it's a vulnerable point. But I think it's not, because I think so many people suffer from it. I think y- there, there's courage in coming out and, and talking about it openly and realizing that people are gonna use it as an attack vector and saying, "You know what? This is important to talk about. This is important to acknowledge and to, to show people-"
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
"... that you can recover from something like that."
- JFJohn Fetterman
Well, uh, originally, I was just gonna talk about depression. And, uh, it... there's a paradox. You know, you might be a place in your life that, that you've actually kinda won, but, uh, d- depression lies to you and it convinces you that you've lost. And my depression got far more worse after I "won". Uh, and, and then it, it was, uh... it was a downward spiral. And then y- if you don't, if you don't check your depression, then you go down a, a dangerous slope, uh, about self-harm. And I started to have... I got to, to, to occupy that kind of a dark place. And, um, and that's when I realized that I have a choice. It's like, if I don't, uh, uh, address this, uh, then, um, I, I had, I had an emergency break, you know? I, uh... it's like I, I have to stop, I have to stop. I have to, uh... and that was my kids. I'm like, "I c- I, I'm like, I cannot be... I can't be the example." And when you're gonna b- get older in life and you're gonna have those kinds of challenge, "Well, hey, Dad decided to, to leave. Oh, that must be the right thing." And I'm like, "I will... I cannot allow myself to be, uh, the example for that." So I, I stayed in the game and, and I was able to get help an- and I got much better. So like, for me, it's like, I originally didn't wanna talk about self-harm 'cause that's definitely, that's definitely not a great political winner.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JFJohn Fetterman
But I, I was like, "I have to be answered..." uh, excuse me, "I have to be honored about that and, and honest." And, uh, and people... that really resonated with people. I was-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JFJohn Fetterman
... I think the first person, I was the first politician, especially at, at that level, talking about self-harm. And, you know, if people are s- uh, that are suffering, people that... I mean, you have a huge, a huge, uh, audience. I'm willing to bet plenty of them are suffering from that or looking through those kinds of issues.
- JRJoe Rogan
No doubt. No doubt.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah. Yeah. And, and, uh, I s- uh, you know, I promise people, whatever your path, whatever your path is for recovery, uh, and I'm not an expert, but if you promise yourself to stay in that game, stay in that game, that you are ready, you know, you're almost guaranteed to get better because I promise you, it will get better. And I was at the point where I was really, you know, in a very dark place and, uh, I stayed in that game and I am staying in front of, as- in front of you right now and having this conversation. And, uh, so that's what I try to tell everybody, whether they're listening today or in other times when I've had that. Uh, it's i- it's an honest conversation, but it is a red and blue conversation, and it's a rural and urban or suburban conversation. It's men or women or even younger kids. I've had conversations with teenagers, you know, with their parents, and they've even tried to take their lives. And I can't think of anything much more tragic than, especially a young person, taking their lives over some of the things that, that, um... and, and, uh, I never thought that, that voice would, would penetrate, but it did, and that's why I'm willing to have that conversation.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's... apparently, it's very common for people that undergo major surgery to, uh, have depression afterwards. And there's a, th- the bunch of physiological reasons for that, they believe. My friend, Dr. Mark Gordon, who's done a lot of work on traumatic brain injuries and, uh, depression amongst athletes and soldiers, he did a lot of research on that. And one of, one of the things that they found was that people that undergo, uh, like a long period of anesthesia and either heart surgery or any kinda major surgery, there's a disruption of your endocrine system afterwards that leads people to be, uh, just w- weary and broken down. And I could imagine that along with the Senate race and all the other chaos-
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and all the stresses involved with that, it plays a significant factor.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Well, I, of, I'm sure it must've been a f- uh, a factor. Um, I, I discovered that I had t- I had two friends, um, they're roughly my age, and they had young kids, and, uh, they to- they took their lives. And they were both in the m- in the media, and both...
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- JFJohn Fetterman
One was, worked for an incredibly elite organization, and the other one had a really strong position. One had a, a heart attack and the other one had a stroke years earlier, and I found out. And, uh, and I wish I could've talked to them, and I did talk to, to, to them. But, uh, it doesn't mean they were weak or that they gave up. It, it's just, uh, I got lucky, and I, I found my emergency break, and, and, and if you have any kinds of study on people and s- and self-harm, there was an individual, he jumped off the Golden Gate and he survived. And immediately after, he says, uh, as he crossed over the rail, he, "I wanna live, I wanna live. What have I done? It's like I made a terrible mistake." And you hit, you hit the water going 75 miles an hour, and it's, it's very against chance of surviving, but he did. And now he became obsessed with this idea, and he, he looked out for everyone that survived. And about 45 people out of 1,800 people that have jumped o- over, they survived, and it was unanimously, people immediately, like, "Oh my god, I wanna live, I wanna live, I wanna live." And not one single person thought, "Well, I wish I was more successful." Uh, so, uh, like, that's ... uh, I try to put that forward. And I can't imagine how difficult, because, uh, they had children the same age mine, and trying to, uh, explain to a 10-year-old, uh, son, like, w- why did daddy leave? And, uh, those are dark conversations. And, uh, uh, y- uh, s- so, uh, it, it's not about weakness. It, it's about trying to get away from that. People that are suffering from depression, if f- to ex- if anyone's been there, it's like your, your mind is on fire, and you just wanna get away from that. You know, just please, I need relief from that kind of a thing. And every now and then, you have like kind of like the eye of the hurricane, where you finally thought maybe things could get better, but it, it, it roars back in, and it's like you get to, back to that very dark place. And, and I just, you know, I just tell everybody, "I'm beg- I'm begging you, stay in that game. I promise you, it can get better. And the, the, the depression is lying to you. It is absolutely lying to you." And, uh, is, but don't make the kinda choice that you can't come back from.
- JRJoe Rogan
I have a friend who, uh, jumped off the bridge, died that way. Y- you know. It's, uh, it's a terrible, just a, a, a terrible thing to find out, and you, you always feel like you could've talked to them, you could've helped. You always feel like, uh, yeah, I didn't know. I didn't know he was suffering. And then I found out that he died, uh, few days later, and it was just like...
- JFJohn Fetterman
K- I know, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
It just leaves you feeling so lost. It's such a terrible way to go, too. That bridge, god. How many people, like, what'd you say? How many people have jumped off that bridge, the Golden Gate?
- JFJohn Fetterman
I, I think that they, they reference a, about over 1,800 people. Uh, and a, a small, small tiny survived. Uh, and, and really, being faced that idea that you're not gonna come back, uh, it's, it's like spontaneously curative. Like, "Oh my god, I wanna live, I wanna live, I wanna live." Like, it's, it's u- it was unanimous about. Uh, and, and that's such an important kinds of re- uh, research that, that, that he did. Um, and it, it's like i- and, and again, like, that's my message. It has to be very simple. Stay in that game. It- it's like you, you can't do this. You can't do this.
- JRJoe Rogan
And you need support.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Uh, yeah, yeah. You need support, whatever that is. And some people have different kinds of resources. I mean, I would want that for everybody, the resources that I had, and that's not fair. It- it's not fair. Um, and it, it ... I got lucky. It's not because I'm like, I'm a so much stronger or, or better. It's like, no, no. I just got lucky on that. And I promise you, you're not going to regret staying in the game. And you can get better, and that is probably, I think, in my, uh, in my opinion, that's about 75% of, of getting back better.
- JRJoe Rogan
What have you done to, to help? What has helped you?
- JFJohn Fetterman
Uh, my, my family. Th- that, that's, that's really what ... uh, like, every, every person needs to have like, uh, that emerg- I call that, like, an emergency break. They, it's like, you know, you are o- you're out of control. You know, you're having that, the darkest conversation you'll have with yourself, and you have to have some- something to stop that. Otherwise, it's, you're gonna go over the edge. And, and everyone needs to have that, uh, of whatever that is. Whether it's your family, whether it's your wife or your husband, or whether it is, uh, uh, or this, that there has to be some ... uh, it has to get better. It's gonna get better. You know, it's, that's why I say stay on the game. And I'm not an expert. I'm not trained in that. But when people reach out to me and say, "Well, I feel like this," and w- and I'm like, "Hey." It's like, you know, help works. I promise you, it will get better. And I can't guarantee what your path will be, but what I can say is, is that stay in that game, and you are gonna find your way on that path. And you're never going (laughs) to regret. It's like, oh, you know, be, uh, uh, it, it's, it just, it, it, the, the finality, the finality of that. Uh, and your n- uh, uh, something s- you, you can make a bad choice, and, you know, well, that might set you back in life, but, but that's the, that's the one ch- uh, the one choice you can't come back from. And you will leave people in your life that they'll never understand or you wish you could reach back and you could let them know, uh, and it-... stay away from that kind of blackness because, uh, you're ... I promise you, you would regret, uh ... and, and if you can't come back.
- 49:03 – 58:08
Relentless online cruelty and targeted narratives in high-stakes races
- JFJohn Fetterman
I, um ... The election, uh, and everything, I was convinced that I've lost everything. Uh, I had, uh, it was difficult to, to fully speak. And my, my kids, they got pulled into the social media kinds of, uh, invective. And, um, uh, it's like I've, I've destroyed my, my health. I've, I've, uh ... and now I've, uh, uh, uh, a- against, you know, odds, I, I won. Uh, and now am I gonna be able to do this job? And, and, you know, uh, uh, uh, would I have been better off, uh, if, if I didn't survive? Uh, and, uh, I got to that, that kind of a, uh, uh, dark place. But, um ... and then I just had this, like, that spontaneous, where, where it's like, uh, uh, my kids, it's like, uh, uh, "No, I love you." Like, oh my gosh, it's like ... Like when they were visiting, uh, I didn't want them to visit me at Walter Reed. Like, I was like, "Why would they want to be around this?" You know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Uh, but they, they did, and it w- it was like this kind of spontaneous kinds of love. And, and it, it, it just was like a shot, and it's just like, "I can come back. I can come back." I, I thought, it's like, "Well, why would they want this m- mess back?" Uh, and, and, and then, you know, just w- working through a lot of those things, and, and other kinds of techniques and, and things. It was like ... But that was probably the single most transformative event, where it's like I realized that I can come back to my life. Otherwise, it's like I thought I've lost everything. Would I be able to even do my job? And it's like, "Do I even have a career?" I mean, I'm talking about, uh, like, uh, that was a significant national, uh, story when after I signed myself in. And that pulled my kids in through that, I mean, this idea. And a- after we announced that we're signing in and there were news trucks outside their house. And, and they had the, they had the trauma of thinking that Dad could have lost after the stroke, and now he is ... it's just ... it's ... they, uh, it's put them through so much. And that's why I was convinced that they probably don't want me around. And then I made the, I made the (laughs) stupid mistake of I w- I, I went on social media and things. I'm like ... and just I read some of that shit. I mean, it's just, it's to- it just ... oh, my God. Millions and millions of views and videos, and it's just like, you know, going after my family and then saying that, you know, uh, you know, "Hey, he's a vegetable." He's, you know, he's a retard. And, uh, you know, sling, uh, sling blade (laughs) all kinds of things. And it wasn't ... it, it wasn't the individual kinds of insults. It was the volume, and just how widespread it, it was. And I'm like, "Who jumps online (laughs) to go after a, a, a stranger that's never really done anything to you personally?"
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I think it's not just individuals. I think it's targeted. I think there's, uh, a lot of that stuff, especially when there's something that is significant as a Senate seat. And I think there's-
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah, well, I mean, it, it's like if I have 100 ... if I have $100 million to convince you that you're a terrible person and you're the worst thing ever, and that, that, that inspires a lot of people, and they, "Hey, that's the mission." It's like he clearly ... he must be those things. And, you know, we're now ... there, there is no, there's no tap out. There, there is no tap out. It's like even after we won, after I won, in some sense, it actually accelerated.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, it's not ... the, the war's not over. It's just begun.
- JFJohn Fetterman
No. Oh, no, no. And the, the second, the second you step into that kind of arena on, on the federal level for, for like a, a Senate, uh, seat, if, if it's like a purple state like Pennsylvania, you know, I promise you there will be tens and tens of millions of dollars, and their mission is to turn you into the worst thing in the world. And whoever survives, that's the one that's gonna be in that seat. And I still will never understand why someone, uh, you know, independently wealthy kinds of people will spend, uh, you know, incredible amounts of money. And, and I try people. I'm like, "There's no glamour here." (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Like, I like ... I'm in a 500 square foot apartment, and I'm like here with my phone. I'm like, "Hey, Grubhub, what's it tonight? Mm-hmm." And then it's like I'm like ... I watch, you know, TV on Netflix and things, and I, I ask, I ask, um, my colleagues, I'm like, "Hey, is there a kind of secret society, like, you know," (laughs) like, you know, "crazy parties or, you know, sitting around with ce- cigars and, you know." You know, (laughs) all this. And they're like, "Well, well, no," uh, I kind of have the same version of, of, of that.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's the perception though, right? The perception is you get-
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah, the per- yeah, the per- yeah, the perception is we live-
- JRJoe Rogan
... invited into a club.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah, the, the, the-
- JRJoe Rogan
Now you control the world.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah, that we all have witty-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JFJohn Fetterman
... kinds of dialogue on West Wing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JFJohn Fetterman
You know, like talking like, oh, this-
- JRJoe Rogan
Or-
- JFJohn Fetterman
You know, kinds of turn, you know, uh ... and really, it's, it's just like ... and, and I describe that as a lot of it's just bad, it's just bad performance art. Uh, yeah, yeah, thanks. That's usually what it, it is. It's just bad performant art. And some people, like if you're, if you're in a safe, in a safe state or a safe seat, you ... and especially if you have the resources, and they're incredibly wealthy people. Uh, they buy a, a house, and they move their life there. So you're able to kind of things. But, uh, like I don't have those r- resources, and I'm in a very, very p- the ultimate purple. And so I spend more than 50% of my time away, and I miss my kids. It's, it's, it's rough, uh, for, for that. I mean, I signed up for that. Uh, but I, I promise you, there's no glamour (laughs) uh, in that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, there's certainly n- no glamour if you're honest.But w- I think there's a lot of people that look to, uh, certain members of the government that have jobs that pay 150, $170,000 a year, but somehow or another acquire hundreds of millions of dollars over the course of their career, usually through some kind of insider trading.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Uh, well, yeah, of course. I mean, uh, I, I don't own any of those, uh, stocks or anything indefinitely. Like if, if you have any kinds of impact or you know that there's something siv- uh, is, uh, coming-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Uh, I mean, yeah, there's just like ... It's like you, you need to like-
- JRJoe Rogan
How is that legal?
- JFJohn Fetterman
Uh, it, it's ... Well, no. W- we should have the kind of legislation to make sure that you're not ... Like if you are on Congress, you shouldn't have any kinds of stocks because you are going to be passing kinds of laws, et cetera, et cetera, that y- y- you know, you have to separate that. They, they really shouldn't be a part of that kinds of a thing. And, um, I, I mean, m- my ... You know, I'm all out. I, I'm open. Um, a- all of us, we have to have our, our, our wealth and our s- you know, all that there, and, uh, and if I'm not the, the, the, the, the, the poorest, uh, I have ... I'm probably the, the bottom five. And, you know, other people there are worth hundreds of millions of dollars, uh, so, you know, we can't have that situation where, uh, you know, if you're gonna be involved on those kinds of legislation that you can't be enriched by those kinds of ...And, and there has to be some kind of influence.
- JRJoe Rogan
That seems simple. That seems like, well, logical. Like most people would agree to that.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah, there's a lot of in- there's a lot of inertia. It's the same thing. I, I think if any one of us were being honest, um, uh, money is destroying our, our democracy. And, and th- that's th- ... Some people, that might sound trite-
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- 58:08 – 1:06:50
Echo chambers, propaganda, and why 2016 wasn’t “about Russia”
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I, I strongly feel that the internet should remain the way it is in terms of people being able to post on social media anonymously if they so choose.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
But the problem with that is it can be captured by money and it can be captured by these enormous groups that have bought farms, whether it's, uh, state actors, whether it's other countries, other nations that are doing that to try to a- attack our, our system and to try to promote certain narratives, or whether it's our own country itself doing it, 'cause I think we do it too. And I think that packs do it.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Well, p-
- JRJoe Rogan
And i- it's just ...
- JFJohn Fetterman
People hook themselves up. It's like you, you self-select your cocoon.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- JFJohn Fetterman
You know? And, and like, uh, I'm a big fan of Apple News, and it's like 13 bucks a month, and, and ... But I read everything across the spectrum, the ... You know, very, very left and very, very right, in between. And, and I think it's really ... Uh, I think that's your responsibility, especially if you're an elected leader, uh, to, to be challenged, to challenge yourself on the ideas. And it's like clearly one side doesn't have all the answers and the other side can't be 100% wrong. And, and it's just like being challenging and living or taking in other kinds of perspectives. Uh, I think that's a responsibility, 'cause otherwise if you only just cocoon yourself into ... And it's just it turns into one gigantic circle jerk, and, and, and that's why it just m- turns people to just kinda dig in. And it's like, "Hey, you know, the, the problem is them and we have to-"
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's a problem with human beings in general, is that we tend to be very tribal and we tend to commit to an ideology, whether it's a-
- JFJohn Fetterman
And comfortable.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- JFJohn Fetterman
It's comfortable.
- JRJoe Rogan
Sure, especially when you're in an echo chamber. Everyone's agreeing with you. You get social credit from saying the things that these people all agree with, and you, you feed off that. But it's ... When it's being captured by d- it's not just these people exchanging ideas, it's also a bunch of people that are manipulating people's ideas. You know, I, I don't know if you've ever paid attention to like, uh, Rene Diresta's work with the, uh, Internet Research Agency. What, what, what they, uh, what they uncovered, what, what they were doing was using ... This was like during the 2016 election, using social media, and it was a lot of Russian troll farms and troll farms in other countries.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's po- possible, but, but, uh, but, but to be honest, I, I, uh ... Th- that election wasn't turned on, I think, Russian in- interference. I'm n-
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah, I'm n- I, I ... What, what happened in 2016 was Trump, you know, he plugged into like kinds of a, uh, of an energy or, you know, like it was just like kinda looking, uh, to, to make that kind of a, of a connection there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, he's a legitimate outsider. This is the appeal. The appeal is that people think that this system is completely rigged and i- it's captured by money and special interests and enormous corporations, and that here's a guy who's outside of this system-... completely. And the evidence of that-
- JFJohn Fetterman
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... is how the system turned against him and how you got to see people on television every night talking about Russiagate, talking about how he's, uh, a puppet of Putin, talking about the Steele dossier, talking about all these different things that turned out to not be true. And it, it further cemented-
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah, I never bought in- I never bought into some of that kind of a stuff. Because if anyone that's spent any time on the ground in one of those states, it's like it's very clear that wasn't because of some, some small kinds of, uh, uh, um, uh, tweets and things, like, uh, whatever. Uh, it, it's, it's, it's undeniable. And, and also, uh, r- remember, like, he was, uh, uh, y- you know, the Republican Party was like, "Hey, this is a joke." And I remember Jeb, Jeb Bush, you know? And he w- he had like $100 or $2-, $200 million and, and he just went by, h- he ticked them off, uh, and, and even then people thought he was gonna win, but, uh, he did. But, but remember though, overall though, that was 75,000 votes. That's a mathematical, like, uh, you know, f- I mean, think of that, 100, 160 million votes, 75,000 spread across three large states, including my own. That transformed, uh, American politics and then the world as well. And it just came down to 75,000 voters in those three states. And that's, that's kind of where, that's where we're at.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. It's, um, it's an extraordinary time in that regard, right? I mean, it's very-
- JFJohn Fetterman
Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, if I-
- JRJoe Rogan
... uncharted territory.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Well, I, I, I reference a, a movie m- if you, like, uh, Bulworth?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm. I remember that movie.
- JFJohn Fetterman
B- B- Bulworth.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JFJohn Fetterman
And, uh, you know, it was, uh, Warren B- Beaty and he was a, a senator. And he kind of had, like, a breakdown and he started saying provocative things. He used to get up in front of his audience and (laughs) and kind of like, uh, like the gaffe of, of accidentally speak- you know, telling the truth.
- 1:06:50 – 1:15:40
Voter ID and election integrity: rare fraud vs. perceived vulnerabilities
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, so I was having a conversation this morning with a friend of mine and we were talking about voter ID, and he was shocked that you don't need voter ID in, I believe it's 15 states. 15 states require no ID. Uh, 20... I think it's 24 or 25 states require ID, but only, I think, 11 of them require you to have photo ID.This is a weird one in this election that I've tried to look at-
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah, we'll-
- JRJoe Rogan
... as objectively as possible, and I can't see any reason why you would not need ID to vote, unless you wanted people to vote that aren't qualified to vote.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah. Well, I mean, uh, like, hon- hon- honest- honestly, I would, I would like to remind everybody, and it, it's not like a talking point, it's actually a... It's an effect that voter fraud is incredibly, incredibly rare. It's really hard to, to, to, um, to, to get away with that successfully. And in 2020-
- JRJoe Rogan
At scale, you mean?
- JFJohn Fetterman
Uh, yeah. It's not scalable, yeah. It's like, I mean, um, it, it, it's like... And usually, it's, it's kind of local kinds of communities and people, they either know that person or it's, it's not... It, it, it's never gonna be organized in a point where you can pack, you can pack, uh, a, a box or you can't determine that, that kind of a thing. It's, it's just that, that, you know, after election, election, election, it, it's just never been... You know, in 2020, out of, uh, over millions of votes, in 2020 in Pennsylvania, there were five or six, you know, ones. And what happened is that, that they, they turned out to be, uh, the Republicans, and they used their deceased, their, their dead moms, you know, to, to vote for Trump through that. And, and that, that was, that was documented, and they were all, they were all, they, they were, uh, uh, caught, they were charged, they were convicted, and all those votes. That would have been six votes out of all of it. So, it-
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you think that that's the only voter fraud that exists?
- JFJohn Fetterman
Well, uh, people also... We need to re- remind that, you know, the, the, the, the voter database, they're crosschecked against deaths, and, you know, who's moved or what's their status are like all, like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh-huh.
- JFJohn Fetterman
... you know, all that's crosschecked back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. So it's, it's, it's a living kinds of thing, where it's con- continually updated and all of those, uh, kinds of things. And it, it self-checks. And remember, also, in 2020, you know, Trump, uh, there was like, oh, there's, there's cheating, there's all these things are happening. And remember, there's probably, uh, 57, 58 red counties, and all of those commissioners that are in charge of that, they were like, "Hey, no, there was none. There was none." And even in Georgia, even in Georgia, uh, K- uh, Governor Kemp, Governor Kemp, uh, was like, "Hey, you know, Georgia, you know, it was very close, but it was, it was honest. There was no, there was no-"
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JFJohn Fetterman
"... kinds of fraud in, in that."
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, what-
- JFJohn Fetterman
And that's a Rep- that's a Republican.
- JRJoe Rogan
But other than making things a little bit easier to cheat, what would be the logic behind not having voter ID? Like, what... I- I've tried to look at this as objectively as possible.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Yeah. Uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
I can't find any reason why you would not require someone to be able to prove that they're the person they say they are when they're putting in their ballot.
- JFJohn Fetterman
It, it's, it's not a hill that I'm saying I, we have to die on that too, a- a- again. Uh, but, but-
- JRJoe Rogan
But it's a vulnerability, clearly, right?
- JFJohn Fetterman
Uh, well, uh, well, it, it, it's also there'll be... Some people may not believe that, uh, in, in a lot of these kinds of communities, you know, ones that I, that I live in, um, i- for some people, they, they're not gonna, they don't have, they don't have an ID necessarily, or they've lost it or whatever. And, you know, like one-
- JRJoe Rogan
But you need one to get a driver's license. You need one to get a Costco card. You need one-
- JFJohn Fetterman
Oh, oh, they don't have it, they don't have... Yeah, they would, they would have to get an ID or it, it costs X amount of dollars, um, or those kinds of, of, of a thing. It's, it's a barrier and it usually tends to skew more towards people that are, you know, coming from those kinds of communities. And, and the Republicans understand that they're usually gonna, they're gonna skew towards Democratic voters through that. Uh, and, uh, so there, that's kind of the argument, uh, on that. And there's never been any evidence that there is widespread kinds of, of, uh, voter fraud. Uh, and that's-
- JRJoe Rogan
But we really didn't have widespread mail-in ballots to the extent that it was done in 2020. We really didn't have that before.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Well, all of those were. All of those were. And, you know, there was five or six, you know, dead moms that were voting. Uh, those were all, those were all, um... Well, actually one. One guy (laughs) , one guy went in, he voted, you know, and then he went up, uh, to his car and he put on sunglasses and a bob cap, and he walked in, he's like, "Hi, hello, I'm here to vote." And the guy's like, "You were just here. What are you doing?" (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JFJohn Fetterman
(laughs) And then they called the police. Uh, and, and then it's like, yeah, he was trying to double vote and he was-
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you, uh, see the story about the Chinese, uh, national who was arrested because, uh, he voted, and then, uh, he tried to get his ballot back, and that's how they, they caught him?
- JFJohn Fetterman
It, it's possible, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, this is a thing that just happened. And unfortunately, once he's voted, even though he was not eligible to vote, his vote is going to count. Um, Texas removed some... I mean, there's lawsuits about it, but Texas removed somewhere in the neighborhood of a million people that, uh, were ineligible to vote that could have been voting.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Well, but everybody knows who's voting and who's not voting on that. And then that's why it's, it's, it's incredibly precise.
- 1:15:40 – 1:41:04
Immigration and the border: shared ideals, gang concerns, and ‘weaponized’ policy
- JRJoe Rogan
But there is an organization that's moving these people to swing states. There's a significant number of these people that are illegal immigrants that have made their way to swing states, and then there's been calls for amnesty. There's been calls for allowing these people to have a pathway to citizenship and allow them to vote. The fear that a lot of people have is that this is a coordinated effort to take these people that you're allowing to come into the country, then you're providing them with all sorts of services like food stamps and housing and setting them up-
- JFJohn Fetterman
Well, y-
- JRJoe Rogan
... and then providing a pathway to amnesty, and then you would have voters that would be significantly voting towards the Democrats because they're the people that enabled them to come into the country in the first pace- first place and provided them with those services. This is a big fear that people have, and that you're rigging this system, and that this will turn all these states into essentially locked blue like California is.
- JFJohn Fetterman
Well, I, I, I, you know, it's well, i- i- immigration is always gonna be a, a, a tough issue f- in our nation. You know, I, I had, uh, as a professor, uh, in grad school, uh, Alan Simpson, Alan Simpson, and he, uh, was, uh, he was a United States Senator. He was Wyoming, uh, and he was, he was, uh, he was actually a pro-ch- uh, choice Republican. I mean, how rare that would be. Well, it doesn't exist now. And he said, "You are never going to have any meaningful immigration kinds of legislation." He's like, "Because both side, th- that's useful for them, and it's gonna be back and forth, back and forth." And he said that 25 years ago.
Episode duration: 2:07:30
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