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Joe Rogan Experience #2228 - Josh Dubin

Josh Dubin is the Executive Director of the Perlmutter Center for Legal Justice, a criminal justice reform advocate, and civil rights attorney. https://cardozo.yu.edu/directory/josh-dubin

Josh DubinguestJoe Roganhost
Nov 13, 20242h 15mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 3:34

    Sheldon Johnson aftermath: the beheading allegation and public backlash

    1. JD

      (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

    2. JR

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music plays) What's up?

    3. JD

      What's up, man?

    4. JR

      Good to see ya.

    5. JD

      Good to see you.

    6. JR

      Uh, so I guess we just get right into it. The last case that we talked about, we had, uh, a, a very unfortunate incident happen after the podcast, uh, about a month later.

    7. JD

      Yeah.

    8. JR

      Uh, the gentleman beheaded somebody.

    9. JD

      Allegedly, yes. Uh...

    10. JR

      (laughs) Allegedly.

    11. JD

      Yeah.

    12. JR

      There's a lot of allegedlys, but-

    13. JD

      Yeah.

    14. JR

      ... there were so many crazy things to that case. The craziest thing was him, uh, trying to fool the security cameras with a wig. Like, I guess he didn't know how high resolution cameras had gotten over the 25 years that he was in jail.

    15. JD

      Uh, I mean, apparently there's a lot he didn't know.

    16. JR

      Yeah.

    17. JD

      Uh, uh, the only reason I say allegedly is because, um, I'd be a bit of a hypocrite if I started calling him guilty, um-

    18. JR

      Yes.

    19. JD

      ... before he has a trial. But-

    20. JR

      Of course.

    21. JD

      ... based on the surveillance, um-

    22. JR

      It doesn't look good.

    23. JD

      ... what do they say in Texas? It ain't too shiny.

    24. JR

      (laughs) It's so crazy, because, uh, you know, we went out with him that evening. We brought him to the comedy club. He was hanging out with us in the green room, and then the news broke, and then, uh, the comics were all like, "Hey, man, what the fuck?" (laughs)

    25. JD

      (laughs)

    26. JR

      "What the fuck are you doing bringing that guy around?" I'm like, "Well, we didn't know."

    27. JD

      I, I, I mean, he-

    28. JR

      Who could've known he was gonna do that other than him?

    29. JD

      Uh, I, man, uh, I'm as, I'm as, uh, I'm as shocked over it now as, as I was in the moment. I mean, yeah, I don't, uh, you know, there are no words. I, I went through, um, it's really not funny. I mean, I'm only laughing out of sort of nervousness, I guess.

    30. JR

      Of course.

  2. 3:34 – 9:22

    What the case taught Josh: recidivism, second chances, and reentry reality

    1. JD

      Allegedly, allegedly. Um, and my first thought was for him and his family, and then my, I think my second and third thought maybe in tandem was, "This tore down 50 years of work that a lot of people, um, have fought really hard for and really need, and I felt like I let you down." Um, you know, you've given us an, an amazing platform to get stories out for people that really need help. I think we've made a ton of progress. We've got some exonerations as a direct result of this, so-

    2. JR

      Yeah, uh, you didn't let me down at all.

    3. JD

      No, I, I-

    4. JR

      You, you didn't, and I, I, I appreciate that you felt like that. It didn't feel like that to me at all.

    5. JD

      Well-

    6. JR

      It was just, listen, there's a reality of prison life. There's a reality of being incarcerated. There's a reality of taking a person who's convicted of a violent crime and putting 'em in jail with violent people for 30 years. There's just a reality, and, you know, I don't know what history he had with this man that he allegedly killed, um, but, y- you know, it's just, like, you can only take so much.

    7. JD

      Yeah, I mean, listen, I don't know. My first emotion is, this is from me and my therapist, my first emotion is usually, like, guilt. So I, once I, I took a little bit of time and thought it through, um, I mean, of course, I come on your show and then you're sp- you know, splattered all over the news for something not positive.

    8. JR

      Good news is I don't watch the news.

    9. JD

      (laughs)

    10. JR

      And I don't pay attention, and I don't listen to anything anybody writes about me.

    11. JD

      Yeah.

    12. JR

      So it didn't bother me at all.

    13. JD

      Yeah, you're rare. You're rare. So, look, for me, um, I have to take a hard look at what I'm doing and, um, take the mirror out and look straight in it and say, like, "What did I do wrong?"

    14. JR

      You did nothing wrong.

    15. JD

      Well, well-

    16. JR

      I don't think you did anything wrong.

    17. JD

      I-

    18. JR

      You just, you just ... Listen, the man had great qualities. He, like, when you talk to him, he's very intelligent, very nice guy. He just thought he could get away with getting payback on somebody.

    19. JD

      Yeah, look, that's super gracious of you. I'm not, uh, whether I did something wrong or not, I, I typically go to blame, um, and that's something that I have to, that's a kink I have to work out in my personality. But let m- let me just articulate it-

    20. JR

      Okay.

    21. JD

      ... because I think what I, w-... the platform is so important to me and getting these stories out is so important to me. And I think that where I've landed is that he didn't let me down, he didn't let... Look, I was the public face of his re-sentencing. There was a lot of great people involved, and it wasn't just from the defense side. The Center for Appellate Litigation had some amazing people working on his case. The District Attorney of Manhattan agreed to this. So on paper, um, even in their personal interactions with him, there was nothing that raised a red flag for anyone. He didn't let anyone down. If he did this, which it... people will draw their own conclusion, he'll have a trial. He didn't let anyone down if he did this but himself and the people that still need help. And I have to swallow the jagged pill that, um, this work comes with some letdowns. Um, the recidivism rate for people that have served long sentences like that is less than 1%. It just happened to happen on a case where I was involved. I have no-

    22. JR

      Is it really that low?

    23. JD

      Yeah.

    24. JR

      Wow.

    25. JD

      Yeah. If you look at exonerations, re-sentencings of people that have been incarcerated for more than 20 years, it's that low. And, and you know, the, the harsh reality is that if you put someone on a public platform and they then do what he supposedly did, it's gonna make headlines. I realized something though that, um... Look, no one could have imagined what's in the dark recesses of that man's soul, whether it's, you know, his group home upbringing and abuse, the prison experience. It's not to make an excuse. He did it, if he did it. If he's convicted and he did it, that's on him. What I'm guilty of is giving a guy a second chance. And I, I am, I'm... Why am I reluctant to say this? I can't apologize for giving someone a second chance and then, you know, they squander it. All I can do is say, "Well, what could I have done better?" I mean, I have a deep understanding, I think, of what incarceration means. I mean, I read this book, um... I always get his name confused. Is it Henry Jack Abbott or Jack Henry Abbott? It's called In the Belly of the Beast, when I was in college. And it's a series of letters that this inmate wrote to Norman Mailer, a fascinating book, and about what incarceration does to somebody from the standpoint of, um, the practical day-to-day from the deep psychosis-inducing confinement and everything else. And two days before the book was released, um, and it was reviewed by the New York Times, the guy snapped and killed someone in the East Village. And, um, no one will know what it is like to be in there. And again,

  3. 9:22 – 16:14

    Mental health as the missing piece: stigma, therapy access, and assimilation planning

    1. JD

      I don't want to offer this as an excuse, but what it has caused me to do is reevaluate and say, "Look, maybe I need to take a much closer look at what sort of mental health counseling these folks are getting." Like Sheldon, I arranged for him to be speaking to a trauma therapist. Should I have been on him more to be going to those appointments? Maybe. Um-

    2. JR

      What was the s- circumstances with the, the guy that he allegedly killed?

    3. JD

      I don't know if I'm doing it just because I'm distancing myself from it subconsciously, but I don't know all the circumstances, but apparently this was someone he knew from childhood and from in prison. I've heard rumors and, you know, stories about the guy, um, threatened his son to, um... He slashed Sheldon when they were in prison. I don't know if you remember, Sheldon had this big gash-

    4. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    5. JD

      ... across his face, um, but I don't know. And I, I frankly don't wanna know at this point because someone lost their life and that, you know, I think unfortunately for my mental health, I just wear that stuff. You know, if I felt even remotely responsible for that, which I do, and, uh, you know, I have to... I can, I can be at peace with it, but I didn't cause that death and I don't f- you know, I can take some responsibility for it in the sense that, what could I do going forward, um, where whether it's people that are being exonerated for crimes they didn't commit or if it's people that are getting re-sentenced, you cannot undo decades of confinement. You just can't. And they all need mental health counseling, all of them. And I have to put that on my shoulders. I just do, because, you know, they all have issues and they come out and need mental health counseling, and there's a stigma attached to it, especially in the African American community, and there shouldn't be. It's no different than if you have a problem with your liver, you know, and you have to take medication. I mean, I've always been upfront about the fact that I'm on medication. I- it's, it's nothing to be ashamed of, and it's especially warranted when you're in those circumstances. Again, none of this is to make an excuse, but I just think that there's a lot more emphasis that I can focus on, um, assimilation more. And I think that making sure that they have job training and that they feel safe when they get out... I mean, there hasn't been one person who I've been involved in their case where... Even, even when they're innocent, they get out and it's a fucking shock. And-... I need to be, um, a lot more sensitive to that, I think, and pay a lot more attention to what they're doing, how they're doing. Again, I had, I had the foresight to put Sheldon in touch with and ensure that we were getting him mental health counseling with a trauma therapist, but I, you know, I didn't want to meddle too much in that because it's on him to go. So, I mean, that's where I land, um, for better or for worse.

    6. JR

      Well, if the guy really did slash his face, if you've been in literal mortal combat with a person and this person is allegedly threatening your son or whatever, you know, there's only so much you can do to stop a person from seeking revenge.

    7. JD

      I guess.

    8. JR

      Especially if they don't have any hope outside of the system and they, they've been completely institutionalized, which, given the length of his sentence, is reasonable to assume.

    9. JD

      Yeah. You're, you're a lot more forgiving and understanding than, um, than a lot of people were and have been about this. You know, I've had ... There's been two schools of thought in the reaction. I mean, I got pretty nasty hate mail, um, and I got a lot of words of encouragement. I think the hate mail outweighed the words of encouragement.

    10. JR

      Always.

    11. JD

      But-

    12. JR

      Psychologically, always.

    13. JD

      I mean, by, in-

    14. JR

      (clears throat)

    15. JD

      ... in substance, number, and probably psychologically.

    16. JR

      Yeah.

    17. JD

      Um, but, um, that shit just gives me fuel, you know. If you're sending me, "Fuck you, you race baiter, you this, you that." You know-

    18. JR

      Race baiter?

    19. JD

      Oh, yeah. I got a lot of that.

    20. JR

      How are you a race baiter?

    21. JD

      Um, by telling the truth about the state of race in the criminal justice system in this country. I don- I ... You see, the thing is, the one, the one force field I have around myself is when that's incoming. I, I'm able to say, "Okay, thanks for the fuel. Thanks for the fuel." I'll never respond to it. Um, you know, unless you're doing mental health counseling in a prison, unless you're a corrections officer or police officer, um, know what it's like to be incarcerated, you have no fucking business giving me your shitty opinion about what you think I am or others that do this work. Get in the fucking arena and do it yourself. And I, you know, so th- I, I take that with a big grain of salt. Um, I had, um, you know, I have enough common sense and practical sense to sort of let, to disregard that. But I have to be a big enough person to look at myself and say, "Well, what can I learn from this and what could I do better?" Because, you know, I was talking to Derek Hamilton, who's been on the show and the, the deputy director of the, the Freedom Clinic at the Perlmutter Center, and, you know, Derek said, "Look, um, mental health counseling, when I was incarcerated was something that was like ... It, it flew in the face of the us-versus-them mentality." I didn't think they could help me.

    22. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    23. JD

      And I didn't want ha- want the help. I was mad and there was a stigma attached to it, that I was soft if I did it.

    24. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    25. JD

      I didn't want people in- inside knowing. Um, so I don't, um ... We're trying to formulate a plan to normalize mental health counseling in prison, so Derek and I are doing a town hall at Shawangunk, which is a pretty rough prison in New York, on December 6th, to try to get some of the inmates to understand that it's okay to ask for this help. I think when they see Derek and hear his story, it's, um, it's helpful for them. So ...

  4. 16:14 – 25:05

    Psychedelic therapy and prisons: rehabilitation vs punishment mindset

    1. JR

      I'm gonna say something that's g- gonna sound pretty controversial, but I think, you know, one of the, uh, one of the conversations that I've had, uh, repeatedly, I had it with J.D. Vance, I've had it with quite a few people, is psychedelic therapy for veterans. Um, people with severe PTSD because of war, I think are the most deserving of psychedelic therapy and the benefits of it, and the fact that that stuff is Schedule 1 and is illegal in the United States, I think is absurd. It's ridiculous, it's horrible, it's a, a massive disservice to those people that put their lives on the line and went over and experienced horrific things that the average person like myself can only imagine. And you're not gonna do a good job of imagining it. I think prisoners could benefit from psychedelic therapy as well. I think there's a lot of people that could be rehabilitated by changing the way they m- they view things, literally changing their mind, changing their perspective. And I think there's a lot of psychedelic therapies that could aid in that, particularly for people who, you know, they're not violent people, um, they're, they're just had, they're a victim of circumstance or they made bad decisions in their life, or what have you. And they're stuck and they're stuck both mentally and physically, and if we want to use prisons as just a deterrent to crime, okay, I think we should probably put some effort towards rehabilitation. You know, s- sincere, significant efforts towards rehabilitation. And one of the best ways to do that is to tr- kind of try to change the way people view themselves and view the world and view themselves as a part of the world.

    2. JD

      The fact that you would even think that that would be controversial I think is just a, a byproduct of the fact that anything that somebody articulates that's outside of, like, what's considered mainstream-

    3. JR

      Yeah.

    4. JD

      ... is rejected.... unquestionably, the research is overwhelming-

    5. JR

      Overwhelming.

    6. JD

      ... it's ... that psychedelics are one of the best, um, one of the best, most effective, um, therapies for PTSD. My therapist has, um, you know, counseled people with PTSD coming back from war. And, you know, has, has espoused the, the, not only the efficacy of it, but how remarkably, um, different it is from conventional therapies in the most positive of ways. And I could not agree with you more. I think that if you look at some of the European countries, that look at their prison systems as a real rehabilitative model. I mean, we have to decide it. We, we incar- we talked about the stats, and I'm not, um, gonna, you know, re-litigate that here, but look, we incarcerate people at a higher rate than any other civilization on Earth. So we have to decide as a society, are we just gonna throw people away and put them in cages and make them worse? Even if they committed the crime. Or, as you said, are we really going to try to rehabilitate people? Because some people are getting out no matter what. Whether they have people like me involved and other great people that do this work, um, but they're gonna get out. Do you want them out bec- like they were just an animal let out of a cage? Or do you want them out where rehabilitation is a cornerstone of their incarceration?

    7. JR

      Right.

    8. JD

      And it just doesn't happen in our criminal justice system.

    9. JR

      Well, there's a bizarre attitude in this country that we shouldn't do anything to make their life better while they're in there, you know? And that something like psychedelic therapy, uh, i- is like, um, that it's a luxury, you know? That it's, uh, something they don't deserve. That it's, um, something that should be reserved for good people.

    10. JD

      Or, or some- or that there's some like, um, it's for people that are like fucking off-

    11. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    12. JD

      ... and, you know, the others that do drugs.

    13. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    14. JD

      That whole mentality.

    15. JR

      Sure. Yeah, there's that, too.

    16. JD

      So, yeah. I, listen, I mean, we talk about like looking up at the mountain and saying, "Can I scale it?" I think what you have to do, and, and I'm talking about this ... All it takes is one state, one municipality, one person who says, "That's interesting. Show us the literature." We have this amazing policy director at the Perlmutter Center named Sarah Chew, and she's in the trenches having these arguments, having these fights, trying to get forensic labs, um, you know, ensuring that they have the proper training accreditation so that they're not introducing, you know, various forms of junk science. All it takes is just the effort going forward to try to start pushing that boulder uphill or else, you know, again, this goes to, um, you know, the incoming hatred in a situation like we had here is like, "What the fuck are you doing to help try to make the situation better?" Because just calling names and pointing fingers and saying, "You fucked up," or, "This person that we threw away is not worth saving." Listen. Everybody has made some mistake that they wish other people didn't know about, you know? And it's not always homicide, obviously, but a lot of people have done something that but for the grace of God go I, right?

    17. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    18. JD

      Um, where if somebody was looking, if law enforcement was looking, it could be you that was there. And would you want a second chance? Would you want redemption? Would you want the help to overcome whatever demons?

    19. JR

      Yeah. Yeah.

    20. JD

      And I, I just think why psychedelics aren't, you know, looked at, um, ketamine, the, the little bit that I did, going through a dark time, it, uh, it almost snapped me in a different direction.

    21. JR

      Yeah.

    22. JD

      And I mean, I, you know, you urged me onto it. I mean, you were the one that said, "You should really think about this." And my therapist urged me onto it, and I think, you know, so I know that the literature is there, it's just we have to get past this whole, um ... It's so f- weird that you mention that. I was talking to a guy on the plane on the way down who was tell- uh, asked me, um, if marijuana legalization passed in Florida. Um, because I was talk- we were talking about, you know, where you're from, this and that. And he was telling me that, um, and he was from Colorado, and he told me that, uh, you know, in Colorado, when marijuana was legalized, that there was this whole, um, movement of people that were, uh, saying that it would be a gateway drug, and that it was gonna, uh, lead people down this slippery slope to doing other hardcore drugs. And he said, you know, the gulf between smoking weed and turning into a meth addict doesn't exist. He said that the bridge between the two doesn't exist, and if you start walking marijuana use and trying to link it to, um, drugs that the US government considers a problem, the link just isn't there.

    23. JR

      Right.

    24. JD

      So, I mean, I, you know, he was sort of ar- trying to explain to me how he didn't understand how marijuana is any different than alcohol. And I said, "Well, go tell that to the state legislature (laughs) in Florida." I don't know what to tell you. I just-

    25. JR

      Did it not pass in Florida?

    26. JD

      It got 58%, um, and it needed 60%.

    27. JR

      Really?

    28. JD

      Yeah.... I don't get that. I just don't get... I, and, and, and-

    29. JR

      Why would (laughs) ... it's fucking more than half the people.

    30. JD

      Yeah.

  5. 25:05 – 1:31:43

    Why psychedelics were criminalized: Nixon-era policy, propaganda, and COINTELPRO

    1. JR

      Well, it all goes back to 1970. It all go back... It s- it all goes back to the Nixon administration and the sweeping Psychedelics Act of nine- 1970 that turned everything Schedule I that was designed to, it was designed to cripple the civil rights movement and the antiwar movement. That, that's what it was about. It was about having new tools to, uh, imprison people that were, uh, antiwar, that were protesting the war. The Black Panthers, uh, civil rights organizations, all these people that were doing drugs, you know, that were using psychedelics-

    2. JD

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JR

      ... to try to achieve a different state of consciousness, and that brought them to these ideas that we're all one and that war is evil and that the United States government is being controlled by the military-industrial complex, and that this is, uh, a, a giant problem in our culture, you know. But people were so weirded out by the Timothy Learys and, you know, the, the whole tune in, uh, t- you know, s- turn out, whatever the fuck his motto was, drop out. This whole thing of l- leaving polite society and being a loser and just, like, traveling around and doing drugs in a van, like, this is, this was, like, the, the-

    4. JD

      Mm-hmm.

    5. JR

      ... the perspective that people had that was gonna take their kids and turn them into ne'er-do-wells and turn them into losers-

    6. JD

      (laughs)

    7. JR

      ... and that we were gonna have a society filled with, uh, people that didn't understand the ethics of hard work and what made America great and all, all this bullshit.

    8. JD

      Well, look, what's born out of that is this, um, you know, m- misunderstanding, I guess, is the best way to put it, um, ignorance.

    9. JR

      Well, it's propaganda.

    10. JD

      Um, it was.

    11. JR

      They, they're a victim of propaganda.

    12. JD

      Well, look, also, if you think about, like, COINTELPRO-

    13. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    14. JD

      ... um, you know, all of a sudden you're spying on people that you think are others.

    15. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    16. JD

      You're, um, legalizing that, um, intelligence-gathering that allows you to start violating people's civil liberties so that you can gain intelligence on them because the way they think is unlike you.

    17. JR

      Right.

    18. JD

      So, you know, it's th- again, sort of, to me, um, all ties back to this very, I guess, tribal mentality that you're either like us or you're like them.

    19. JR

      Right.

    20. JD

      And everything that you mentioned, the Psychedelics Act, um, the resistance to the civil rights movement, it was all based on the fact that, look, we're, we have a, a potential uprising here of people that are gonna challenge the way we think-

    21. JR

      Right.

    22. JD

      ... and the way we do things.

    23. JR

      Right.

    24. JD

      So for people that call me a race baiter, right, I, you know, I feel like I'm more of a truth-teller and just taking the thread through history and, you know, I, I have... At least I'll read and try to educate myself and get perspective. Um, uh, if, if it wasn't a fact that brown and Black men and women get incarcerated at a higher rate, uh, I wouldn't be talking about it, and I'm just talking about facts. So, I think that it's just this, um, tribal misconception about these are drugs and they're bad-

    25. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    26. JD

      ... versus you sit and speak to someone and take some, you know, pharmalogic form of therapy that has probably way worse side effects, can be addictive, and can lead to a whole host of other issues that you then have to take something else to address versus just being, having the openness to take a look at a different way to potentially help someone. So, I don't understand it, and the only thing that, that I can do is just to keep on being open-minded and, you know, try to figure out if there's other ways that we can convince the people that are in these, um, penitentiaries and that run them to allow programs that at least give you a crack in the door to get in.

    27. JR

      Well, I think the way, the doorway to that is to first show the effectiveness, uh, with veterans and, uh, with other people that aren't incarcerated, and that once that gets established and once that becomes something... I think it's much, much more established now than it was when I first started talking about this stuff 20 years ago. You know, um, like, probably when I've had my first experiences was a little more than 20 years ago. I think people had this very ignorant idea that was born out of propaganda, 'cause you have to think, 20 years ago was only 30 years removed from the sweeping Psychedelics Act. So, you're dealing with, uh, a whole society that's been just programmed by propaganda and lies, and that propa- those propaganda and lies were established in order to villainize this one group of the population that was completely changing the culture. The difference in the United States culture from 1965...... to 1955 to 1965 was so dramatic. It was such an enormous shift, you know? Then you have the Vietnam War, the protests, all these things that were happening in the '60s, the music. Everything was changing so radically and so drastically that the people in power had a very, uh, like, a, an accurate sense that they were losing control and that change was inevitable. And they threw water on it, and they did a great job if you look at it from that perspective. The difference between... I mean, it's terrible what they did, but it was effective in that from 1970-

    28. JD

      A great job of throwing water on it, I would say.

    29. JR

      Yeah. A great job of changing culture, uh, which was changing in a, in a potentially beneficial way for everyone. To get us to recognize that we, we, we truly are all one and that the way to make things better for everyone is to make things better for the most disadvantaged. And this was the Civil Rights Movement, right? And this was the Antiwar Movement. This was, uh, this was recognizing that people were being taken advantage by the military-industrial complex and just sent overseas so that they could profit.

    30. JD

      Amen. I, I, uh... The first guy that I met that really, like, um, changed my perspective on, on the world, especially in terms of what, uh, what I could potentially do as a lawyer was Jerry Lefcourt. Jerry Lefcourt was Abbie Hoffman's lawyer.

  6. 40:24 – 51:41

    Lawfare and political prosecutions: Trump cases as a public lesson in system power

    1. JR

      You know? And I think highlighting that and highlighting the need for that and the understanding of how the system can railroad you and the system can really fuck you over. I think one of the things that we saw during the, the Trump, uh, campaign was the legal system being used against one of the most powerful people in the world and how they can get away with turning 34 misdemeanors, so essentially one misdemeanor but 34 versions of it, 34 wr- writing in a ledger incorrectly, that's a misdemeanor and has passed the statute of limitations, can be converted into a felony and turned against a guy who's running for president as lawfare. It's just completely using the legal system to try to attack a guy and try to take him out of the race and also try to label him a convicted felon. So once you have this label, a convicted felon, you, you heard it on all the talk shows, convicted felon, convicted felon. But enough people had a chance to look at the circumstances of the case and, and understand what was actually, what he was actually being tried for. Paying someone off to not talk about how he fucked them? Is that what we're worried about or are we worried about World War III? Is that what we're worried about? Are we worried about terrorist cells, like, being established in the United States because our border's wide open? Is that what we're ... Are we worried about the price of groceries and people being able to feed themselves? That's what we should be fucking worried about, not whether or not some guy fucks someone. Like who cares?

    2. JD

      Well, it's so, it's so, um, interesting to me because the conversations that people in the legal community in New York were having at the time, I cannot tell you how many times, didn't matter what side of the spectrum you were on politically, but in New York there's a lot of fucking Democrats. And I can't tell you how often I got this call, "What is the crime here?" What ... I mean, with regard to that particular case, first of all, the DA in Manhattan seemed to-

    3. JR

      (sniffs)

    4. JD

      ... um, realize that it was a futile endeavor to go after this guy and retreated and then something happened and the im- m- you remember, the, the-

    5. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    6. JD

      ... special prosecutors quit-

    7. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    8. JD

      ... because they were furious o- apparently that the DA wouldn't go forward with the case. Then, um, something happens in between.... and Alvin Bragg, the District Attorney of Manhattan proceeds with the case. So many legal scholars said, "What is the crime here?" Y- I understand there's a series of misdemeanors that somehow gets flipped into a felony, legal scholars that had issues with it and if they spoke about it publicly, they were attacked. Right. Alan Dershowitz was one of them. He was attacked. Anyone that would speak out, and there's this fear for good legal minds to get behind defending a case like that because it's viewed in, um, Democratic strongholds like kryptonite, right? Right. Um, so y- you mean, remarking on that case, yeah, it was weaponized against him and that's why, I think it was this morning, the judge in that case agreed to a joint motion by the prosecution and the defense to put everything on hold, because they're deciding whether or not they're gonna dismiss that case. And if you remember, the, the drum that was constantly beat before this election was he'll never get out of these state cases. The federal ones we understand because he can pardon himself, but the state cases? Oh, those are gonna be a problem. Well, not so fast, right? Because now, if it was that much of a, a, a crime and that people were so up in arms about it, why are they now considering dismissing it? And I think that the, the, it puts the, the lie to the notion that this was really something that we wanted to make an example out of and you can't engage in this type of conduct. What conduct? You know, it was obviously politically motivated and you know, and it happens all over the country. It happens all over the country on both sides of the aisle though. Um, we have, I have a case right now that, and for me to be able to say this, is probably, um, you know, I had to think, "Is this, is this the craziest fucking case I've had?" And, and it has to be. It has to be, um, because the DA that is sitting in judgment of whether or not these four men that I'm gonna tell you about in a moment, right before the election, for him to become DA, gets indicted. He gets indicted for allegedly, like, harassing a former employee and then trying to bribe her not to file a complaint against him, something like that. Right before the election. And all of a sudden, he is now embroiled in this, he loses the election a couple of weeks ago, and he is now, finds himself wrongful- according to him, wrongfully accused of a crime he didn't commit. Well, my client, um, is a na- guy by the name of John Edwards and there were four guys. This is in Lorain, Ohio. Lorain County, Ohio. It's John Edwards, Lenworth Edwards, Benson Davis and a guy named Al Cleveland. New York guys, um, in the early 90s who were selling drugs in Ohio. They were going back and forth from Ohio to New York. And one morning, um, a man by the name of Epps is found dead in the street. His roommate is found about seven hours later, a woman named Marcia Blakely, um, dumped in an alley, um, behind a shopping center. The case is cold for a month. The police have hit dead ends. They have nowhere to go with the case. The prosecutor's office offers a $2,000 reward for anyone with information about the case. Well, didn't you know that the next day, a man by the name of William Avery Sr. walks into the Lan- the Lorain County prosecutor's office, they sit him down with the police and he says, "I have information about the case." Now, this guy William Avery Sr. was a known informant. The police knew him. He had come and tried to give information about other cases, didn't pan out. He was also a drug addict and they sit with him for over an hour and they say to him, "E- everything you're telling us has been in the papers. So you're not giving us anything new here." He shows up the next day with his son, William Avery Jr., and he says he witnessed the murder. So William Avery Jr. talks to the police. At the end of that interview, he goes, "What about the reward money?" And the officer says, "Let's turn the tape recorder off and let's talk about that." They tell him, "We're not giving you the reward money because now you're telling us that information that's been in the papers and all you're telling us is that you saw Marcia Blakely assaulted in an apartment and you're not telling us anything about the murder." The very next day, he shows up and says that Al Cleveland told him that he murdered Marcia Blakely. So let's put a bookmark in it, 'cause I decided I wanted to do something a little bit different today. Um, at the end of the episode, I'm gonna give you a Twitter account-I've submitted, today, a 40-page submission, all of the exhibits that are mentioned in that submission to the Lorain County prosecutor, his name is JD Tomlinson. So now, I'm going to invite the public, before you go writing a letter to him or calling him, you read the submission and look at the exhibits yourself, because what often happens is that in these reinvestigations, prosecutors' offices have something called a Conviction Integrity Unit where they say they'll reinvestigate the case, and the very first thing they make you do is sign a no media agreement that you won't go to the media, 'cause the last thing they want you to do is what I just did, is to talk about the case publicly. So we're not in a Conviction Integrity Unit, we're trying to appeal to a prosecutor, JD Tomlinson, who from what I understand has told Al Cleveland's wife, 'cause I've spoken to her, her name is Roberta, great woman, came up to her in the summer at a barbecue and said, "When I was a law student, I sat in on your husband's trial and it always bothered me and I want you to come in and have your lawyers come in, I'm gonna do the right thing." And now that he's been indicted, he has gone silent. I haven't heard from him. I've texted him, I see he reads my messages because he has read receipts on-

    9. JR

      (laughs)

    10. JD

      ... and I guess he doesn't know that. Um, and I've asked him for his time. I think in his wildest dreams he probably never could have imagined that the case was gonna now become national news. Um, he has between now and December 31st to do the right thing and exonerate them. The incoming DA would never do it, I don't think, from what I've heard. So I'm gonna invite the public and I'll give you the link at the end and I wanna tell you the rest of the story, um, because some of the things I tell you, you're gonna say, "Come on. That can't be true." So I have the exhibits sitting in a folder for everybody to read, but, um, you know, the... I think that the justice system has been weaponized against JD Tomlinson because he was coming up for re-election, there's all sorts of, like, personal animosity between him and the guy that just got elected. There's allegations, at least, that the guy that just got elected helped, you know, was somehow involved in, um, you know, getting him indicted by a special prosecutor. I don't know if it's true or not, but it doesn't just happen on the big national stage.

    11. JR

      Right.

    12. JD

      It happens all over the place and you just don't always hear about it.

  7. 51:41 – 1:31:43

    Mar-a-Lago valuation dispute and the ‘no victim’ argument in white-collar enforcement

    1. JR

      Well, I think the fact that it happened on the big national stage the way it did, and not just the case of the hush money, but also the case of, uh, Mar-a-Lago being overvalued, which is preposterous. That was one of the most ridiculous ones. They, they listed it what, $17, $18 million? I would buy five of those if they were available for $18 million. Do you know how much money you would make for that kind of property?

    2. JD

      Have you e- have you ever been to this place?

    3. JR

      No.

    4. JD

      It's... I've been there a bunch.

    5. JR

      I've seen it.

    6. JD

      It's fucking... it's magnificent.

    7. JR

      Yeah.

    8. JD

      You walk in there and you feel like, you know, Marjorie Post bought it and had it design- it's magnificent.

    9. JR

      Forbes, I think, had valued it between $700 million and $900 million. Is that true? Find out what- what the valuation was. But, like, independently, before all this shit, it had been valued v- and I think Trump valued it over a billion, which of course he's gonna do.

    10. JD

      And he's doing it to the bank.

    11. JR

      Right.

    12. JD

      Right? Trying to get a loan.

    13. JR

      But not only that, paid the loan off with interest, everything was fine, n- nobody... there's zero victims involved in this, and the fact that they want to say that it was actually... So what does it say here? Okay, 350, okay. So the club had revenues of $25.1 million for the calendar year of 2017, 22 in 2018, and 21 in 2019. 2020 to 2022, Forbes estimated the value of the estate around $350 million. I think Trump jacked it way higher than that and I think... I, I read somewhere that someone had said between seven and nine if you could... like, what a real estate evaluation would be. Like, what it's actually worth in the state that it's at. I think there was an issue though that it, it was, uh, wasn't it, like, listed as a national historic landmark or something like that, Jamie?

    14. JD

      Mm-hmm.

    15. JR

      Right, so then you really can't do anything to it which devalues it somewhat, but still.

    16. JD

      I would think... listen.

    17. JR

      18 million is fucking crazy.

    18. JD

      There's no property like that anywhere. Um, you feel like you're in Europe when you're there. Um, it is, it is a magnificent place and has some of the best food in Florida (laughs) . Um, so I don't... and I don't know that... part of the valuation of something like that seems to me to be a bit subjective. It's now the home, um, of the sitting two-time President of the United States, um, so yeah, but putting all that aside-

    19. JR

      Just the real estate alone.

    20. JD

      Yeah.

    21. JR

      There was a, there was a lot that was sold next to it, or a home that was sold next to it, that was $50 million. So it's-

    22. JD

      And they... it's not just Mar-a-Lago. Across the street they have the beach club that sits right on the beach, but the point is is that they're meddling into... look, the bank could have said, "Well, we're gonna send an appraiser out there."

    23. JR

      Right.

    24. JD

      "And we're gonna determine whether or not we agree with you that it's worth that."

    25. JR

      Right.

    26. JD

      That happens for anyone that's ever sold a home. So yeah-

    27. JR

      Again, the point is there's no victim. The point is, like, there... it's not like he got this loan and then defrauded the bank and then defaulted on his loan and then pocketed the money. No, no, he paid everything back with interest, it was profitable for the bank, everything worked out. It's like, this is a bullshit case. Everyone knows it's a bullshit case. So that's another one that was in the news that everybody got a chance to see.

    28. JD

      Well hopefully, hopefully it opens people's eyes. Look, there's a lot of white collar crimes that I've been, um, a defense lawyer on, um, where you see the human cost.... of a prosecution, what it does to the person accused, but also their family. And to somehow crawl out from under the weight of the- the federal government, these- these take years and a fortune to defend. And oftentimes, you're thinking, "Why did they bring this case? Um, what, who are the victims here?" And they come up with some loss calculation that's very theoretical. I'm talking about cases where you can't point to a victim that lost money. And, um, you know, you wonder why some prosecutions are brought and others aren't. And you see, again, what it does to not only devastate families and the accused, but is it really deterring anyone? I would never ever enter an industry where I was working with stocks, bonds, commodities, anything that was regulated in any way by FINRA, the SEC, because they'll... Oh, it seems like they can make a case sometimes when there isn't a case to be made. And hopefully, you know, regardless of what side of the political spectrum you're on, what happened to Trump should be eye-opening to people, because you don't have to agree with him or his politics or his policies to see what's happening today as we sit here when everything is being reconsidered. And- and you think about the massive expense that, um, y- it takes to prosecute these cases. That guy has... I don't care what anybody says about him, he's got to be one of the toughest motherfuckers you've ever met to stare down all of this and... Most people would be in a puddle. Um, to stare down these prosecutions and the threat of going to jail and everything else, that breaks a lot of people.

    29. JR

      Yeah.

    30. JD

      Um...

  8. 1:14:19 – 1:18:40

    The informant story: reward money, changing testimony, extortion attempt, and mistrial

    1. JD

      Th- So, I told you, William Avery, Sr. goes in, tries to get the reward money. They tell him, "Fuck off." Brings his son in the next day. They say to him, "No dice." Then he comes back and says, "Okay, Al Cleveland told me he committed the murder." Comes time for, um, their trials to begin, and they're gonna all be tried separately, and William Avery, Jr. gives this account of how this murder happened. And he says that he watches this woman, Marsha Blakeley, get beat for 15 to 20 minutes inside of her apartment, and that, you know, the reason, um, he- this woman gets beat is because Al Cleveland wanted him to work off a debt and beat her up, and he said no. So then, these four men bust in the door and th- this is how the crime occurs. It comes time for the first trial of these four men, and William Avery, Jr. shows up as the prosecution's star witness and he says, "I want $10,000 to testify. You gave me two? I want 10,000." And the prosecutors say, "We're not giving it to you." And he says, "Then I'm not testifying." The judge throws him in jail. He's in jail. He is cool on his heels, as they say, and he says, "You know, um, I made this whole thing up and I did it for the money," and no one believes him.

    2. JR

      (laughs)

    3. JD

      And the judge says, (laughs) "What are you talking about? You're gonna get on the stand and testify." He says, "No, I'm not." And now he's facing potential perjury charges. The judge declares a mistrial. He then comes back with a new story to the prosecutors and says he witnessed the beating, he witnessed other details of the crime. He then goes on to testify at all four of their trials. After the first mistrial, they all get convicted. He then fully recants of his own volition. Says he got off drugs, says he wants to straighten out his life. He's in the process of cooperating with the FBI and the Secret Service. Now, these exhibits are sitting in this folder. You go to Twitter, it's Free the Ohio Four. Free the Ohio Four. There it is. And if you just click on that URL-

    4. JR

      Only one person's following it?

    5. JD

      Well, we-

    6. JR

      Zero followers?

    7. JD

      There was a, there was a, a reason because I didn't put it up until right before the episode today.

    8. JR

      I, I wanna be the first person to follow it.

    9. JD

      (laughs) So-

    10. JR

      I'm gonna get on, I'm gonna get on right now and be the first person to follow it.

    11. JD

      If you click on that, it will bring you to a folder with this 40-page submission that I put in today, and references to all of the exhibits. So here it, um ... This is my first page. "At the trials of Al Munday," that was his pseudonym, Al Cleveland's pseudonym. "At the trials of Al Munday and those charged with him, I testified under oath that I was an eyewitness to Alfred Cleveland, who I knew as Munday, along with other people I knew as JR Will and Shakim," who was John Edwards, "beat Marsha Blakeley at Floyd Epps' apartment and then murder her behind Charlie's Bar in Lorain. All of this was a lie. I never witnessed the murder of Marsha Blakeley, was not with her or Al Cleveland the night she was murdered. I only done it for the money and everything was not true." The entire case was built on this man. There's no forensic evidence, no eyewitnesses, nothing. So this is not to be believed.

    12. JR

      What was the reason why they thought this woman and that other man were murdered?

    13. JD

      They didn't know. They had no theory. Police had no theory.

    14. JR

      There's no connection to them?

    15. JD

      No connection to them.

    16. JR

      There was no theory, like drug deal gone wrong, something?

  9. 1:18:40 – 1:24:49

    Recantation blocked: FBI/Secret Service warnings and the judge’s perjury trap

    1. JD

      Oh, oh, that was what they ended up coming up with, was that she was a drug user, Al Cleveland was a drug dealer. It must've been drugs gone wrong. So, something involving drugs gone wrong. So William Avery, Jr. is, after they get convicted, is working as an informant for the FBI and the Secret Service. Now, prior to this case, maybe this is how obtuse I am, I thought that the Secret Service's purview was the President, but apparently they have other investigative functions 'cause he was working on some food stamp scheme as an informant. The Secret Service tells the FBI, and the testimony is in that exhibit file. The Secret Service tells the FBI, "This guy, William Avery, Jr.? He's not to be trusted. He's lying to us and he's lying to us for money."... they contact the prosecutor, the FBI calls the prosecutor in Lorain County and says, "This guy, William Avery Jr., he used them as an informant in that case against these four men, he's a liar and he does this for money." So they end up getting Al Cleveland's lawyers, John Edwards' lawyers, Lenworth Edwards, Benson Davis, they end up getting an evidentiary hearing. And William Avery Jr. comes to testify. And he's coming to testify that I made the whole thing up and he s- in very exquisite detail, his father who obviously brought him there threatened his life, he was... sat him down and smoked crack with him to calm him down.

    2. JR

      (laughs)

    3. JD

      You can't make this shit up. Wait till you read the affidavit. He sat him down-

    4. JR

      Smoked crack with a nig- ugh.

    5. JD

      ... and smoked crack with him to calm him down.

    6. JR

      The fuck calms down from crack?

    7. JD

      And told them, "I need that reward money-"

    8. JR

      (smacks lips) Oh, my God.

    9. JD

      "... for my drug habit." He was a fucking junkie. So he needs the reward money and he gets his son to go in there. And it's obvious if you watch the, if you read the interrogation and his testimony that he's being led. They show him pictures of the apartment where this woman was allegedly beat. He's getting details wrong. They're, they're, um... You know, he changed his story. He was telling conflicting versions of the story. So at these post-conviction hearings where these men should have all been exonerated, he gets on the stand and before he testifies, the judge says to him, "Have you been advised, um, do you have an attorney?" He said, "I don't think I need an attorney." And he tells William Avery Jr., "Well, you need an attorney. We're going to appoint you an attorney because you're about to perjure yourself because you either did one of two things, you either lied and that put four men in prison or you're about to lie now to set them free. Either way, you've lied under oath." Think about the mind fuck of this. So this guy is coming to clear his conscience and the judge threatens him with prosecution. So he gets an appointed attorney and they go and ask the prosecutor, "Will you give him immunity so he can tell the truth?" They say no. His defense attorney asks the judge, "Will you give him immunity so he can tell the truth?" And the judge says no.

    10. JR

      Oh, God.

    11. JD

      And they tell him, "We're gonna charge you with perjury if you tell the truth."

    12. JR

      (laughs)

    13. JD

      He walks out of the courthouse, okay, after pleading the Fifth and is interviewed by the local paper walking out of the courthouse, that's in the exhibits, and he says, "They're all innocent. I made the whole thing up. I've been trying to tell the truth here, but I can't go to jail for whatever time they're going to give me." So here you have a guy that is the son of a known junkie. He has been... The prosecutors in this, in Lorain County have told, um, have been told by the FBI that he's not reliable, that he makes things up just to get money. He's been caught in lie after lie after lie. And now he comes and wants to tell the truth and set these men free. And the crazy... And, and this judge puts him in this situation where he's, he can't tell the truth or else he's going to get prosecuted. This is what happens in this country. This is the kind of thing that... And these four men, two of them are out, two of them are serving life sentences. Al Cleveland's wife, Roberta Cleveland, saw this DA and he said he was going to do the right thing. He knew that the case was problematic. And now because he's worried about his own indictment, you know, he's not responding. So what we're asking for is your listeners to go through and read this very detailed submission that I've made along with the Ohio Innocence Project, the Ohio Public Defenders, um, and a great attorney, um, by the name of Kim Correll, who you actually, uh, m-... you actually had a good laugh over one time, oddly enough, because she was at the White House when Kanye West was there.

    14. JR

      (laughs)

    15. JD

      And she was, she was like apparently like standing over him smiling and you were like, "Look at this fucking girl."

    16. JR

      (laughs)

    17. JD

      "She just thinks that like... How the fuck did I get here?" She told me about it this morning.

    18. JR

      Did she feel that way? Like-

    19. JD

      Yeah.

    20. JR

      ... "How the fuck did I get here?"

    21. JD

      She probably did. She's super cool. I spoke to her this morning.

    22. JR

      (sighs)

    23. JD

      She's a badass. And she was like, "I've never met him, but he seems awesome and he did have a good laugh at my expense when Kanye was in the White House."

    24. JR

      (laughs)

    25. JD

      So... (laughs) Yeah, there she is.

    26. JR

      (laughs)

    27. JD

      That's her. Do you remember this?

    28. JR

      Kind of. Kind of.

    29. JD

      Oh, it's so funny. But she's, she-

    30. JR

      Kanye in the White House, I forgot that.

  10. 1:24:49 – 1:30:28

    Evidence gaps and alternative facts: alibis (including Daymond John), missed forensics, and a second connected murder

    1. JD

      She's awesome. But... So we're asking your listeners to go and read the exhibits, read the submission. And then I have a contact page. Call JD Tomlinson, write him a letter. Look, these four men... Thank you, Jamie. These four men, um, certainly were drug dealers. Al Cleveland, we've established Al Cleveland's alibi, John Edwards' alibi. Check this shit out. His alibi witness was Daymond John from Shark Tank. He testified at his fucking trial-

    2. JR

      Whoa.

    3. JD

      ... at post-conviction hearings. Daymond John back then was a hardscrabble New Yorker.... he was doing whatever he could to grind it out. This is before FUBU. And he was friends with Al Cleveland and Al needed to move, to have a TV moved and Damon had, like, a gypsy cab service, a car service in New York. You lived in New York, right?

    4. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    5. JD

      You remember what it was like, you call a cab service-

    6. JR

      Yeah.

    7. JD

      ... a car service. And he was with Al Cleveland the day of these murders. Al Cleveland saw his probation officer the day after the murders. People saw him all over New York when the murders happened. John Edwards was with his girlfriend, his girlfriend's family throughout the night from, like, 10:00 at night till 3:00 in the morning. His girlfriend was pissed off at him because he was flirting with some girl in the bar. Um, so these guys have alibis. There is no question they had absolutely nothing to do with this crime. This woman, Marsha Blakeley, was murdered, right? Here's the, one of the strangest facts in this case. She is seen all over town, all over town at the time they claim that she ... that this, that this guy William Avery originally claimed she was murdered. She's seen by family members, friends. She's looking for crack, she's, um, walking down the street way after this guy claims it happened.

    8. JR

      How was she murdered?

    9. JD

      She, she was ... S- throat was cut and she was run over by a car.

    10. JR

      Ugh.

    11. JD

      All right. So we've talked about tunnel vision before and when the police think they have the guy-

    12. JR

      Yeah.

    13. JD

      ... they had a problem on their hands. They couldn't solve the crime and they have these guys that are drug dealers in the area, so they become easy marks for this. There is a blade sitting in a diagram found right next to Marsha Blakeley's body. They never tested it for DN- they never collected it. They never tested it. It was at a time when DNA is the early '90s. DNA was around. Her roommate, Epps, Raymond Epps, is found a mile or two down the road with his throat slit and run over.

    14. JR

      Same thing?

    15. JD

      Same thing. No one's been charged. No one's been charged. It's an unsolved case as of this day. Why? Because-

    16. JR

      Because they pinned it on these other guys.

    17. JD

      Because they pinned it on these guys and this guy, William Avery Jr., only came in with information about one of the murders. The, the cases were so clearly connected that the medical examiner pointed it out. These people were killed in the same way. Why there isn't an outrage, a fucking outrage about this case is, is beyond me. When I got this case, I said, "There is no way what you're telling me is true. That this guy has come and wants to clear his conscience and tells you exactly what happened and the FBI told the prosecutors that he's a liar?" And these guys are still, two of them are still serving life sentences. And when you have to live stamped as a murderer, um, even in the free world, you know ... Al Cleveland is out and he's suffering. I mean, I had to listen to his wife, um, heaving. She couldn't get a hold of herself because she went down to J.D. Tomlinson's office and said, "You told me you were gonna help." A- and he said, "I can't now. I'm sorry. I've been indicted. The last time I exonerated someone, look what they did to me." Because he exonerated someone else and his political opponents attacked him. Um, you know, human beings, we, we, we sometimes get in our own way because of outside forces, what we think other people are gonna say, think. J.D. Tomlinson's been voted out, he's been wrongfully accused of a crime. It's time for him to, to say, "You know what? I'm gonna do the right thing." All I ask is actually a meeting with him. "I wanna meet with you between now and December 31st. Let me lay everything out for you as I have in this submission." He's now gonna have it in his hands. Um, he wouldn't answer my text messages. I'll give him a break. He was obviously going through some, um, serious personal issues being under indictment, running for re-election. Um, this is an easy thing. This is just doing the right thing. Um, there is no way that you could look at this evidence ... And this is why I think it's a good idea for ... Rather than give, uh, a snapshot of a case and, um, have to rely on

  11. 1:30:28 – 1:54:05

    Call to action and bigger-picture reform: transparency, CIU limits, and defense access to evidence

    1. JD

      some process with these conviction integrity units behind closed doors where they run the reinvestigation, I like the public being able to get invested and look at the evidence themselves. Everyone loves a true crime story, um, so why not, as part of this, let the public help make the case? And when they write a letter, they'll do it more forcefully. Or they call him and say, "How could you ignore this?" So, um, I would just encourage everyone to go on Twitter and go to FreeTheOhio4 and look at the evidence. And if you ever ... I've gotten so many reach outs, "How can I make a difference? What can I do to make a difference?" This is it. You can write, you can call. Um, you know, his, his cell phone number is online because he was running for re-election. You know, let him know that the public is watching and expecting him to do the right thing. Um, you know, that's the, the, the best use I feel like I can make of publicly advocating for change, is to help bring in the public and, and give them a vested interest in trying to help.

Episode duration: 2:15:04

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