Joe Rogan Experience #2240 - Roger Avary & Quentin Tarantino

Narrator 0:00 (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music)

Joe Rogan 0:12 All right, here we go. We're rolling. So you were- you were saying that someone was telling you how to kill someone with coffee?

Roger Avary 0:16 Okay, so I got to know all these, uh, you were talking about, uh, some-

Joe Rogan 0:20 His name's John McFee.

Roger Avary 0:20 ... yeah, some operators.

Joe Rogan 0:22 Yeah.

Roger Avary 0:22 And, uh, I got to know through a friend, through a billionaire friend who, uh, loaned his plane to the, to Clinton to fly those people out of, uh, I think North Korea. And so from that point on, he was surrounded by these guys. And, uh, one of 'em, uh, this guy Mikey, uh, which isn't his real name. Um, I think he's actually named, they name 'em all after the archangels. So he was, like, Michael, another guy Gabriel.

Joe Rogan 0:51 Oh, Jesus.

Roger Avary 0:51 And like-

Joe Rogan 0:52 (laughs)

Roger Avary 0:52 ... they take on these-

Narrator 0:54 (laughs)

Roger Avary 0:56 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:56 There's nothing creeper than an assassin with Biblical names.

Narrator 0:59 Named after an archangel.

Roger Avary 1:00 Yeah. And well, you know. And so, um, he, uh, um, you know, we got to know each other because of our mutual friend, and, uh, I think what happened was, uh, um, he and a couple of the other guys, you know, they were placed on me as, like, for surveillance purposes, like, you know, find out what this Avery guy is about maybe.

Joe Rogan 1:21 Right.

Roger Avary 1:21 Or just keep an eye on him or whatever. And they told me right up front, like, "Be nice to your surveillance." You know, like, "Don't try to lose us or anything like that."

Joe Rogan 1:28 Right.

Roger Avary 1:28 'Cause, uh, you know, I heard stories about how, you know, they're surveilling somebody in wherever, Bolivia, and suddenly some gang attacks their surveillance and they step in, kick the shit out of the gang. And so, um, so I got to know these guys, and naturally, you know, I'm a writer and a filmmaker, and so I of course want to talk to them about stuff, and they immediately started volunteering, "Oh yeah, we've learned all these different ways when I became an operator," blah, blah, blah. "I learned how to kill people without... And I was just making a list now of the 10 ways to kill someone without leaving a trace." And I was like, "Well," just like when I told Quentin about this, he's like, "Well, what are those?"

Joe Rogan 2:08 (laughs)

Narrator 2:08 (laughs)

Roger Avary 2:08 "I'd like to hear those." Everybody wants to hear those. And so one of the ones that I think is the best one is, uh, you inject someone with coffee, caffeine, like, uh, just inject coffee into their bloodstream, gives them a heart attack, and it's untraceable. Later on, they do an autopsy and they just discover caffeine in your system.

Joe Rogan 2:26 That's it?

Roger Avary 2:27 That's it. It's-

Joe Rogan 2:28 Just right into the blood, coffee can kill you?

Roger Avary 2:30 Sometimes the simple ways are the best.

Joe Rogan 2:31 Like, uh, like, uh, yeah, so just right into the jugular in a, with a syringe?

Roger Avary 2:34 Yes.

Joe Rogan 2:35 Jesus.

Roger Avary 2:35 After extracting whatever information you need to get out of them. But he was-

Joe Rogan 2:38 How much coffee will kill you like that?

Roger Avary 2:40 Uh-

Narrator 2:40 A syringe worth?

Roger Avary 2:41 I don't know. You know, is it the Turkish kind or is it-

Joe Rogan 2:44 Right, right.

Roger Avary 2:44 ... uh, Folgers? (laughs)

Narrator 2:45 Cuban espresso.

Roger Avary 2:46 Yeah, but he was, uh, he was a medic, um, you know, during, uh, during the war, "the war", and, uh, he was a medic, and, um, so he, you know, was kind of identified as somebody who knew how to kill somebody very easily 'cause you know what will work.

Joe Rogan 3:04 Yeah.

Roger Avary 3:04 'Cause you're a medic. And so, um, you know, I would hear every now and then, oh, let's see, "I'd kill some guy and some diplomat or something in the Philippines, and I'd hit him with my car and I'd look in my rearview mirror and make a determination, a medical determination of, you know, is the guy, uh, still alive or is the, uh, I better finish him off and put him in reverse and drive him over again a couple of times-"

Joe Rogan 3:25 (laughs)

Roger Avary 3:25 "... and then take off." And he's doing that all the time.

Joe Rogan 3:28 (laughs)

Roger Avary 3:29 All the time they're doing it.

Joe Rogan 3:30 Well, Jamie and I were just talking. They think they have a photo of the guy who whacked that insurance CEO.

Narrator 3:35 Oh, yeah, yeah, uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 3:36 Yeah, they think they have a photo of his face now.

Narrator 3:38 Oh, they do, huh?

Roger Avary 3:39 Well, I would think with the amount of cameras-

Narrator 3:41 From around the time or they, or they picked it up later?

Joe Rogan 3:42 I think, you know, there's cameras everywhere now.

Narrator 3:44 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:45 And that's part of the problem with someone... And I don't think this guy was a professional. I think this guy, if I had to guess, some guy who got fucked over. Apparently that company is really bad on denying claims.

Roger Avary 3:57 30, 34% denial rate, something like that.

Joe Rogan 4:00 And normal is like 16.

Roger Avary 4:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:01 Yeah. So those guys-

Roger Avary 4:04 I don't think anybody's gonna, like, be crying too hard over that guy. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:08 Yeah, maybe his family, but that's about it.

Roger Avary 4:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:10 It's a dirty, dirty business. The business of insurance is fucking gross. It's gross. And especially healthcare insurance, just-

Roger Avary 4:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:17 ... fucking gross.

Roger Avary 4:18 Well, actually all insurance. I live in California and, uh, all of a sudden, because I live adjacent to any kind of open space, like, nobody will insure my house because of fire.

Joe Rogan 4:29 Right.

Roger Avary 4:29 And so suddenly it's like I have a house that's uninsurable and it, it's not just me, it's everybody.

Joe Rogan 4:33 Mm-hmm.

Roger Avary 4:34 And so it's chaos.

Joe Rogan 4:36 Yeah, yeah.

Roger Avary 4:36 It's chaos.

Joe Rogan 4:36 I have a friend that's trying to sell a house in California and they, it turned out it was $125,000 a year just to get fire insurance.

Roger Avary 4:44 Yeah.

Narrator 4:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:45 Like what?

Roger Avary 4:46 Yeah, it's insane.

Joe Rogan 4:47 It's fucking nuts.

Roger Avary 4:48 It's insane.

Joe Rogan 4:49 Yeah, but you know, I was evacuated three times when I lived there. I used to live in Bell Canyon and-

Roger Avary 4:53 Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah, uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 4:54 ... you know, it was fucking, it was rough.

Narrator 4:56 I've, like, I've been, like, I've been really lucky. I live in, I'm almost afraid to say it, all right, 'cause I've been living in the, the Hollywood Hills and I've never, any of the fire stuff happens, never happened around my house.

Joe Rogan 5:06 Yeah, it is just luck, yeah.

Roger Avary 5:08 I mean, the benefit of your place is you're at least in a helicopter accessible-

Narrator 5:13 Well, that is-

Roger Avary 5:13 ... they're just gonna dump all that fire retardant right on top of you.

Narrator 5:17 I literally am kind of, uh, at the top of the hill on a bunch of rock, all right.

Joe Rogan 5:21 Yeah.

Narrator 5:21 So if the whole-

Joe Rogan 5:21 Oh, that's nice.

Narrator 5:21 ... fucking place just turns into an inferno, I'm still fucked, all right, you know.

Roger Avary 5:24 And I think that place has probably been there a while.

Narrator 5:26 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Roger Avary 5:26 It's probably withstood all sorts of calamity.

Joe Rogan 5:28 Yeah, when I was filming Fear Factor, I talked to this guy who was a fire guy, uh, for the fire department. He said, "It's just gonna be a matter of time. There's gonna be one day where a fire hits LA and the wind is the right way and we're not gonna be able to stop it and it's just gonna burn right through to the ocean."

Narrator 5:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 5:43 He goes, "It's just a matter of time. We all know it." I was like, "What the fuck, dude?" I go, "The whole city?" He goes, "The whole city."

Roger Avary 5:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:50 He goes, "When those big fires get going-"

Narrator 5:52 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:52 "... there's not a damn thing." Like what, what happened in Malibu a few years back.

Narrator 5:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 5:56 Like those are... I, I always thought Malibu, those rich people live in 10,000-

Narrator 5:59 Well, that was the closest-

Roger Avary 6:00 Maui.

Narrator 6:01 That was, that was like around '93. That actually happened while we were shooting Pulp Fiction.

Joe Rogan 6:07 Really?

Narrator 6:07 Yeah, uh, well there was a- there was the big Malibu fire.

Joe Rogan 6:09 The Malibu fire, yeah.

Narrator 6:09 The big Malibu fire happened while we were shooting Pulp Fiction, so we actually set up a TV on the set because Bruce Willis-

Joe Rogan 6:17 (laughs)

Narrator 6:17 ... was gonna w- wor- maybe lose his house. An- and so he was like actually, uh, uh, so we have a little TV area so we could like, so in between takes we can watch what's going on with the fire. And they're like, uh, and the- and there was all these reports that, "No, Bruce Willis and his family are on top of the house with the, the-"

Joe Rogan 6:33 (laughs)

Narrator 6:34 "... with their water, with their water hose." Like, I go, "No he's not, he's right here." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 6:39 (laughs)

Narrator 6:39 (laughs)

Roger Avary 6:39 Well, the thing is, fires were normal. Like it used to be, when I was young, uh, you know, I grew up in California, and so when I was young, fires would burn through Malibu constantly. But now they put all those houses in there where there never were houses.

Joe Rogan 6:52 Mm-hmm.

Roger Avary 6:52 Because the fire is a natural process, it kind of clears-

Narrator 6:55 Right.

Roger Avary 6:55 ... the land, it cleans the land, and, uh, um, it's- it's normal actually. But, you know, when- when you put all that kindling in there, suddenly we end up with these like super storms of fire, just where everything's just-

Joe Rogan 7:07 Yeah.

Roger Avary 7:07 ... you know, going crazy and ...

Joe Rogan 7:08 Yeah.

Roger Avary 7:09 Uh, it's, I think it's over-development which is the cause of these insane, uh, kind of fires that we're getting.

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Narrator 9:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:17 You're not gonna stop people from developing in Malibu.

Narrator 9:19 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 9:19 You know, it's just too nice.

Roger Avary 9:21 No, you're not gonna stop.

Joe Rogan 9:21 You just take your chances, roll your dice.

Narrator 9:23 Yeah.

Roger Avary 9:23 Yeah. Yeah. Well, but you roll your dice, you take your chances and you roll your dice no matter where you live.

Joe Rogan 9:28 Yeah, it's just-

Narrator 9:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:29 ... it- it's just fucked up when it happens. Like, uh-

Narrator 9:31 Oh my God, yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:32 I drove home once, we were, uh, filming Fear Factor. We had to stop the set early because the fire was so bad. This was like 2003 or something, like '4. And driving home, it took me 55 minutes on the 5 to get home, and the entire time, the right side of the highway was on fire.

Narrator 9:45 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 9:46 For 55 minutes. Everything, like Lord of the Rings style. Like ...

Narrator 9:49 So- so three different times you got evacuated from your house?

Joe Rogan 9:51 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Narrator 9:52 So everyo-

Joe Rogan 9:52 Three different times.

Narrator 9:53 And wha- so what is like- okay, so you decide what- what you're gonna take with you kind of thing?

Joe Rogan 9:57 Yeah.

Narrator 9:57 Okay.

Roger Avary 9:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:57 The last time- well, the last time was the last time. It was like, uh, you know, the last big fire in LA. And, uh, I came home from The Comedy Store at like 1:00 in the morning, and my wife and I are looking out the window and the fire's like maybe 500 or 600 yards away.

Narrator 10:11 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 10:11 And it's coming over the hill. And we were looking at each other and I said, "Let's just get the fuck out of here before it gets bad."

Narrator 10:15 Yeah, right on.

Joe Rogan 10:16 Let's just get out of here now. Just ... So we grab the kids, got a laptop, took some clothes. I didn't even have underwear. I just- I said, "We could just buy stuff. Who gives a fuck?"

Roger Avary 10:24 Yeah.

Narrator 10:24 Mm-hmm.

Roger Avary 10:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:25 You know?

Narrator 10:25 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:25 Who cares?

Roger Avary 10:26 If you have your life.

Joe Rogan 10:27 Yeah.

Roger Avary 10:27 I- I'm always the, I don't want to say the stupid guy, but I'm the guy who, for some reason, always decides I'm gonna stay.

Joe Rogan 10:33 (laughs)

Roger Avary 10:33 And like I'm gonna ... And you know ...

Narrator 10:35 Oh, you're that old guy. All right. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 10:36 (laughs)

Roger Avary 10:36 I live near a fire department. There's a fire hydrant across from my driveway.

Narrator 10:40 You're the guy on the roof with the flood is happening.

Joe Rogan 10:43 Yeah.

Roger Avary 10:43 Yeah.

Narrator 10:43 "Get off my property."

Joe Rogan 10:44 (laughs)

Roger Avary 10:44 Yeah, that's me. Like my family went away and I was like, "Well, they're gonna close it out so we can't get back in. Ah, I'm just gonna hang out here until I know that it's ..." And you know, at a certain point there was fire like cresting the- the ridge, and I'm kind of watching it and I ran down to the fire department to see, you know, like, "Hey guys, it's- it's coming! It's r- I can see it from my house!" And they're all there like hanging out and eating sandwiches and like not even worried about it at all. They were like, they kind of looked over at it and said, "Nah, it's- it's okay."

Narrator 11:10 (laughs)

Roger Avary 11:10 "It'll be fine. It'll just burn a little."

Joe Rogan 11:12 Yeah, they get a little too blase blase about fire. (laughs)

Roger Avary 11:13 They're pretty blase.

Narrator 11:14 (laughs)

Roger Avary 11:14 They- my- by the way, my spec ops friend, uh, he's like, "Oh fuck those firemen, man. Fuck them! They get so much like credit for like nothing! They barely do anything. They're on these incredible pension plans. Like ah, ah, ah." He like hates firemen.

Joe Rogan 11:31 That's ridiculous.

Roger Avary 11:31 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 11:32 Well, that's a- well, it is a great job. But you can't get mad at someone for having a great job.

Roger Avary 11:36 For having a great job.

Narrator 11:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:37 There's a buddy of mine that I used to play pool with, Chris Col...

Roger Avary 11:39 Well, he has to actually hump it into another country and kill somebody, so ... (laughs) Like it's ... He's got a real tough job.

Narrator 11:44 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 11:44 That's- well, the- the thing is he's not- he's not getting enough credit.

Narrator 11:46 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 11:46 That's what it is.

Roger Avary 11:47 Yeah. Exactly. That's the-

Joe Rogan 11:47 That's really what it comes from.

Narrator 11:48 That's a well- that's better s- way to say it. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 11:50 Yeah, that's the- that's the reality of our world today. Those people don't get enough credit.

Roger Avary 11:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:55 But firemen, you know, it is a great fucking job.

Narrator 11:58 (laughs) Yeah, he's ... But I like the way he breaks it down, "Fuck those guys." (laughs)

Roger Avary 12:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:00 (laughs)

Narrator 12:00 (laughs) Fuck those pussies!

Roger Avary 12:01 It's like they all have these- these huge pensions.

Narrator 12:03 (laughs)

Roger Avary 12:03 And everybody thinks they're heroes. They're not heroes!

Narrator 12:07 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:07 Well, it's funny because-

Narrator 12:08 They're just doing their job!

Joe Rogan 12:09 ... the firemen are very comfortable with fire. These people are very comfortable with people dying.

Narrator 12:12 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:13 And dying because of them.

Roger Avary 12:14 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 12:14 You know? They just get real-They get blasé blasé about murder. (laughs)

Narrator 12:18 I had a-

Roger Avary 12:19 It's not murder if it's, uh, sanctioned by your own country, isn't it?

Narrator 12:22 Isn't that wonderful?

Roger Avary 12:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:23 What a cool loophole.

Roger Avary 12:24 Yeah, isn't it?

Narrator 12:25 I had a, a interesting thing, y- you know, it's like, you know, when you live in the Hollywood Hills, you know you're paying actually, you know, uh, you pretty decent property taxes. So you get, there's, you know, there's a, there's, you know, there's a little vig that comes with it, you know? You get a-

Roger Avary 12:37 Right.

Narrator 12:37 There's a reason why you're ... You know, you don't have to wait two hours during, uh, when you're, uh, uh, during election. You just go to the (laughs) you go to the local, uh, elementary school. You're in and out in five minutes, all right, when it comes, uh, election day. But also, um, there's one of those stupid things that you do that, like, like y- like w- what's a fucking idiot? Where you, you turn on the burner and then you, like, leave the room for a while. All right? And then you come back and all of a sudden your, your kitchen is, is flaming. All right. And so, uh, uh-

Roger Avary 13:08 Has that happened to you?

Narrator 13:09 That happened to me once. All right. And s- uh, uh, so the a- uh, the alarm goes off and I hit the button, let the fire department know, and then I, I, I, I put it out. I put it out, like, pretty much immediately. And then maybe five minutes later, it could have been three, five minutes later the firetruck is at my door.

Joe Rogan 13:35 (laughs)

Roger Avary 13:35 Whoa.

Narrator 13:36 So I didn't even have time to say, "Hey, it's, uh, y- you know, it's, it's okay now. It's okay." And so there's an entire firetruck at my door and I, I let them in. I go, "Look, guys, I'm really sorry. I was really stupid." You know? I, I left the room and with the pot on the stove and w- whatever and anyway. And, uh, so I'm really sorry I wasted your time. I'm really, really sorry I wasted your time. Having said that, it's nice to see that you guys are here this quick. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:04 (laughs)

Roger Avary 14:04 Yeah. Yeah, and I'm sure they were like, "Oh, we'll just get a selfie."

Narrator 14:06 And they were like-

Joe Rogan 14:08 (laughs)

Narrator 14:08 And th- and they were like, "Yeah, yeah, you're right. Yeah, right, yeah, exactly, your property taxes pay for something. Are you sure you don't want us to come in and just make sure?" I go, "Yeah, go ahead if you want." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:16 (laughs) The problem is sometimes they have to chop through the walls to make sure that the water-

Narrator 14:19 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:19 ... is not fire and embers inside. Yeah.

Roger Avary 14:22 Spray it all down, get in between.

Joe Rogan 14:23 It's a hard fucking job when it's a hard job, though.

Narrator 14:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 14:26 The thing is, most of the time they're just chilling.

Narrator 14:28 Yeah.

Roger Avary 14:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:28 You know? They get to cook, they eat, they work out.

Roger Avary 14:30 Oh, I take ice cream down to our guys at the-

Joe Rogan 14:33 Mm-hmm.

Roger Avary 14:33 Like, I'll go out and buy a bunch of ice cream or some pizzas and take it down just on random days just to, uh-

Narrator 14:39 Well actually, it was funny.

Roger Avary 14:40 ... make them ha-

Joe Rogan 14:40 That's cool.

Narrator 14:40 Well it was f-

Roger Avary 14:41 I'm okay with the fire guys.

Joe Rogan 14:43 (laughs)

Narrator 14:43 Well, it was actually funny because it was like, uh, uh, one of the things that was a crack up was, like, the local fire department, when we worked at Video Archives at our video store, the local fire department, uh-

Joe Rogan 14:53 That's right.

Narrator 14:53 ... was a customer. And so they'd rent different movies, but, like, it was almost out of, out of five movies that they would rent, four are pornos. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:04 (laughs)

Roger Avary 15:06 Yeah. No, they lived up to their-

Narrator 15:07 They just literally watched-

Roger Avary 15:07 ... their, their careers.

Joe Rogan 15:08 Did you guys work together?

Narrator 15:09 Yeah.

Roger Avary 15:10 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:10 No shit.

Roger Avary 15:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:11 That's how you guys met?

Narrator 15:12 Yeah, uh-huh.

Roger Avary 15:12 That's how we met.

Joe Rogan 15:13 Wow!

Roger Avary 15:14 Video Archives in Manhattan Beach, California.

Joe Rogan 15:16 How fucking cool is that story?

Narrator 15:17 Yeah, that's from like, uh, '84, yeah.

Roger Avary 15:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:19 Wow!

Narrator 15:19 '84 for about five years.

Roger Avary 15:20 Yeah. Maybe even a little bit before '84.

Narrator 15:23 Well, I started officially in '84 because I'm a member-

Roger Avary 15:25 But you were a customer before then.

Narrator 15:26 Well, I was a customer for-

Roger Avary 15:27 Yeah.

Narrator 15:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:28 Wow.

Narrator 15:28 I was a customer before, yeah.

Roger Avary 15:29 I, I predated Quinton as, uh, one of the employees, so I was there at-

Joe Rogan 15:33 Look at you guys.

Narrator 15:34 There we are.

Roger Avary 15:34 Yeah, yeah, actually, yeah, that's, that's us.

Joe Rogan 15:37 That's crazy.

Narrator 15:39 Uh, very unfortunate shirt on my part. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:43 (laughs)

Roger Avary 15:43 (laughs)

Narrator 15:43 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:43 There was a lot of unfortunate shirts in the '80s.

Narrator 15:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:45 Everybody was confused. They cut the drugs off in the '70s, no one knew what to do for 10 years.

Narrator 15:51 (laughs) That's exactly it.

Joe Rogan 15:51 Yeah. It's, it's crazy. Like, you would have never thought back then that that industry would completely vanish. You thought Blockbuster Video was gonna be around forever.

Narrator 16:00 Well, you know, one of the things that, that, uh, we, we-

Roger Avary 16:04 Well, I didn't think film was gonna vanish either.

Narrator 16:06 Yeah, yeah, exactly right.

Joe Rogan 16:07 Right.

Roger Avary 16:07 I didn't think the theater experience was gonna go away either.

Narrator 16:09 But one of the things though that was the death keel to video stores that no one ever, like ... When they were talking mom and pop, when w- when they're talking old people, uh, to like, "Hey, you know, you're, you've retired from your business. You've got a nice little nest egg. If you wanna, if you wanna invest in a nice little business where you get to work with your neighborhood and be in a nice little store with your family, you know, video stores. That's a, that's a good business." "Well, I don't know anything about movies." "Well, we, uh, you have, uh, people to help you, you know, help you choose the titles and everything." So there was a lot of people that, like, invested in this stuff. An- and it seemed like a good idea. The reason that it seemed like a profitable idea was the idea of like, well, you know, uh, I sell you this video cassette and you, you, you pay for the video cassette but the minute you rent it past the point that, uh, where you paid for, you pay for the video cassette yourself, then everything else is you. All that other money that you make from here on in is just all profit once you pay for the actual cassette. Now, of course you'll have some cassettes that don't rent as well, but you know, but that's the way it works out, but it should work out great. Well, again, that sounds like a pretty good business model. Well, if I spend this money and then, you know, five years from now, boom, everything is, is, uh, uh, profit. Where, where, where it all k- fell apart is the idea that you always have to get new shit. Because like life d- it's not a bookstore.

Joe Rogan 17:42 Right.

Narrator 17:42 Well, bookstores need to get new stuff too but it's not a library. Li- life doesn't stand still. Every month there's new titles coming out and you have to be competitive and you have to get the new titles. And so even if it, if that were the issue, that wouldn't be that big of a deal. But if you're a mom and pop store, you only have so much room.

Joe Rogan 18:05 Mm.

Roger Avary 18:06 Yeah, yeah.

Narrator 18:06 So-

Roger Avary 18:07 It's a spa- it's literally a space, shelf space issue.

Narrator 18:09 Within three to four years you're bursting out of the seams of videos.

Joe Rogan 18:16 Mm.

Roger Avary 18:16 Yeah.

Narrator 18:16 You're just bursting out. You've got no more room.

Joe Rogan 18:19 I never thought of that.

Narrator 18:19 You've got no more room and so now all of a sudden rather than having your fa- your, your tapes facing out, now everything is, you know, uh-... uh, sideways-

Roger Avary 18:27 Yeah. Spine facing.

Narrator 18:28 Spine facing. And, uh, and you've got to really, uh, uh, and, and it just never stops. It never stops. Next month, then you gotta get this, and next month you gotta get that, and next month you gotta get that.

Quentin Tarantino 18:38 You need a Costco-sized building.

Narrator 18:40 Yeah. Well, yeah, well, again, if you have four different video stores, or if you have a chain, you can move things around and it's easier. But when you're a mom and pop, that's just it.

Quentin Tarantino 18:50 Hmm.

Narrator 18:50 You know? If you're a mom and pop store and you have a bike store, you don't have to keep getting new bikes every month. (laughs) If you have a pottery store, you don't have to keep getting new-

Roger Avary 19:00 Regar- regardless of your inventory.

Narrator 19:02 ... pots, new pots every single month.

Quentin Tarantino 19:03 Yeah. Yeah.

Roger Avary 19:03 Constantly have to grow your inventory. Constantly. There's no-

Narrator 19:05 Every six months you get something cool. You don't need to get it-

Quentin Tarantino 19:07 Right.

Narrator 19:07 ... every month. And you're defined by you having the new shit.

Roger Avary 19:11 And then there was another problem when, um, when companies that were massively funded, like Blockbuster, came onto the scene. They would go in and they would kind of do this sort of gray market purchasing, where they would buy, you know, f- 50 Die Hards. And a mom and pop store can't afford to buy more than-

Narrator 19:30 Yeah, yeah.

Roger Avary 19:30 ... one or two Die Hards, or three, maybe-

Narrator 19:33 Well-

Roger Avary 19:33 ... to satisfy your clientele.

Narrator 19:34 ... when it comes to a big title, yeah, the thing is you'd spend, you know, you spend the money. Like, okay, like, you know, one of our big titles when we s- in the early days of video was Top Gun.

Roger Avary 19:42 Yeah, Top Gun. Perfect example.

Narrator 19:44 You know. So you get like, you know, you'll, you'll, you'll get, even the mom and pop stores, you'll get 12 or 15 Top Guns.

Roger Avary 19:50 'Cause everyone wants to see it, and s- at some point it's gonna be out and it's gonna be checked out. And so you've gotta-

Narrator 19:55 Yeah.

Roger Avary 19:55 ... satisfy your-

Narrator 19:56 Well, you're gonna, yeah, you'll rent all 15 of those for the next two weeks, you know? It's gonna be, you know, it's gonna be good. But then now you, now you have to sell them off.

Quentin Tarantino 20:04 Hmm.

Narrator 20:04 You know, for $10 a piece, you know? Uh, once the m- the, you know, uh, once the, the, the-

Roger Avary 20:10 It-

Narrator 20:10 ... the desire has died down.

Roger Avary 20:11 It largely fell on us because we were a smaller store and we had a Blockbuster just-

Narrator 20:14 Yeah.

Roger Avary 20:14 ... a block away basically. Um-

Narrator 20:16 Not even a block. What are you talking about? In the same fucking-

Roger Avary 20:18 Yeah, basically in the s-

Narrator 20:20 ... uh, blo- uh, not a block away. It was in the-

Roger Avary 20:21 On the block. (laughs)

Narrator 20:23 Yeah. In the shopping center that we were in.

Roger Avary 20:25 (laughs) And-

Narrator 20:26 Yeah.

Roger Avary 20:27 ... yeah, and s-

Narrator 20:27 But y- well, you're, you're missing the best, the most interesting thing. It's not about the, the bulk buy. The bulk buy is, it is what it is. It, the, the ... But that's every mom and pop store has to deal with that depen- in dealing with a, a, a-

Roger Avary 20:36 Sure.

Narrator 20:37 ... franchise.

Roger Avary 20:37 Well-

Narrator 20:38 What-

Roger Avary 20:38 It, it changes your strategy, though.

Narrator 20:39 Yeah. But what Blockbuster would do, and they were famous for doing this, they were famous f- for doing this. And, uh, but particularly they were strategic about it, is like, "Okay, uh, we're gonna go into this town. Okay, we're going into Manhattan Beach. What's the biggest video store? What's the most popular-

Roger Avary 21:00 Yeah.

Narrator 21:00 ... local video store in Manhattan Beach?" Well, that would be Video Archives. They're right on Sepulveda. You know, they're right across the street from the Warehouse, all right, which is like, was the big, which was one of the big, uh, rental places-

Roger Avary 21:10 Yeah, before Blockbuster, that was the place.

Narrator 21:11 ... before Blockbuster, it was ren- uh, it was, uh, Warehouse, Warehouse Recordings and Tapes.

Roger Avary 21:14 Mm-hmm.

Narrator 21:15 And, and they still managed to survive across the street from Warehouse. And then what does Blockbuster do? They buy the Shakey's Pizza-

Roger Avary 21:25 (laughs) Yeah.

Narrator 21:25 ... that is in our shopping center, our shopping center.

Quentin Tarantino 21:28 Hmm.

Narrator 21:29 And they moved into the Shakey's Pizza-

Roger Avary 21:32 Yeah.

Narrator 21:32 ... because it was like, "Well, okay, we have a Warehouse, and with the, these Video Archives guys. Well, this is obviously the place to be." So they just bought out the Shakey's Pizza and opened up, and they still couldn't shut us down.

Roger Avary 21:41 Yeah.

Quentin Tarantino 21:42 Wow.

Roger Avary 21:43 I'm sure they had the attitude of, "We'll just brush them aside."

Narrator 21:45 Oh, of course that's how-

Quentin Tarantino 21:46 (laughs)

Narrator 21:46 ... of course that's how they felt.

Roger Avary 21:47 And so consequently, because you don't, you can only get three or 12 Top Guns, whatever it is, it's not as many as Blockbuster is getting, you end up having to focus on like, "How am I gonna convince my clientele to watch something other than Top Gun this weekend?" And so it f-

Narrator 22:02 Well-

Roger Avary 22:02 ... landed on us to basically say, "Oh yeah, you can't get Top Gun? Well, how about this movie-"

Narrator 22:06 Well, but you know-

Roger Avary 22:07 "... that you haven't seen?"

Narrator 22:07 ... well, but it, you know, it's, you know, it's the difference between being a cool coffee place and being Starbucks, all right?

Quentin Tarantino 22:13 Right.

Narrator 22:13 You know? Or a co- or, you know, a-

Quentin Tarantino 22:16 Sure.

Narrator 22:16 ... a franchise bar and a cool little Joe's Bar, all right, and the bartender knows you.

Quentin Tarantino 22:20 Right.

Narrator 22:21 You know? So it's like, "Look, if you just absolutely, positively need Top Gun that weekend, then go to across the street to the Warehouse and get it, all right?" Uh, uh, "We have what we have." But we had customers that, like, came in every fucking day (laughs) , and part of their day or every other day, you know, when their tapes were ren- were, were, were due.

Roger Avary 22:40 Yeah.

Narrator 22:40 And they were people of the neighborhood a- and they came in and, uh, not only did they rent stuff, they dropped stuff off and then they rented new stuff out, but like, they came in to talk to us for 20 minutes or 45 minutes, like, every other day. (laughs)

Roger Avary 22:55 Yeah. And there's no algorithm to tell them what to do. We are the algorithm.

Narrator 22:59 Yeah.

Quentin Tarantino 22:59 Mm-hmm.

Roger Avary 22:59 You have to know, "Oh, this guy, oh, they're on a date night, so they're gonna want this kind of rom-com type movie. Or this guy, he really likes, you know, uh, Vietnamese hooker porn, uh, (laughs) tapes. I gotta make sure to find something like that for him. And those kids, they're gonna want, you know, some skate stuff, so I've gotta learn all about the Bones Brigade, uh, videos and stuff like that."

Quentin Tarantino 23:21 Mm-hmm.

Roger Avary 23:21 And so, you know, you just kind of figured out like, "How can I upsell the stuff that they haven't heard of?" 'Cause invariably, anybody who comes in, they have-

Narrator 23:29 But you're making it just sound a little bit more cynical than it was.

Roger Avary 23:32 No-

Narrator 23:32 You are making it sound more cynical than it was.

Roger Avary 23:34 No, I-

Quentin Tarantino 23:34 (laughs)

Narrator 23:34 (laughs)

Roger Avary 23:34 ... more like, more like the challenge of it.

Quentin Tarantino 23:35 You guys look like a married couple. (laughs)

Narrator 23:37 Well, yeah, but it's not that-

Roger Avary 23:38 Oh yeah, totally we're like a married couple.

Quentin Tarantino 23:40 (laughs)

Narrator 23:40 It wasn't that cynical.

Roger Avary 23:41 Without the benefits.

Quentin Tarantino 23:42 Tell them the whole story, honey.

Narrator 23:43 We're just hang-

Quentin Tarantino 23:43 Why don't you tell them the whole story?

Roger Avary 23:45 (laughs)

Narrator 23:45 We were just hanging out and they're coming and hanging out too.

Roger Avary 23:48 All- Yeah, and, and we would pop a movie on-

Quentin Tarantino 23:50 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Roger Avary 23:50 ... and like, uh-

Quentin Tarantino 23:52 (laughs)

Roger Avary 23:52 ... you know, pop the movie on and be watching scenes from it and be talking about the scenes. Then a customer would come in or m- many customers would come in and they'd just become part of the conversation.

Quentin Tarantino 23:59 Mm-hmm.

Roger Avary 23:59 And we would have like, you know, a-

Narrator 24:02 Oh, no, I mean there-

Roger Avary 24:03 ... like a chat room in the-

Narrator 24:04 No, no. There was like-

Quentin Tarantino 24:06 Hmm.

Narrator 24:06 ... no, there w- th- th- there, there was about like 15 customers that like, you know, I talked to five hours a week.

Roger Avary 24:18 Yeah.

Narrator 24:18 Every week for five years. (laughs)

Roger Avary 24:19 Yeah.

Quentin Tarantino 24:19 Mm-hmm.

Narrator 24:20 You know, because they came in and I'm like would spend at least 40 minutes every other day. (laughs) And I expected to see them. And, you know, the, I watched what I watched on TV, I saw what I saw at the movies, and then they saw what they saw in the movies, they watched what they watched on TV. We all talked about it, and they talked about the videos and then w- what else we were gonna get and da da da da da.

Roger Avary 24:37 And if you liked that, you're gonna like this.

Narrator 24:38 About our life, about our lives and everything.

Roger Avary 24:40 Yeah.

Quentin Tarantino 24:40 So at what point in time while this is all going on do you guys decide, "We need to make our own fucking movies"?

Roger Avary 24:47 Well, it was always the case.

Narrator 24:48 Well, we were always thinking-

Roger Avary 24:49 Really.

Narrator 24:49 ... well, well, well Roger and, and, uh, Roger had another friend that, it, it was a guy that connected me and Roger together. It was a guy named Scott who, who, uh, took his own life at a certain point really young.

Roger Avary 24:58 His father owned another video store that I worked at as well, and that Quentin used to come into.

Narrator 25:02 But the thing is though, that while I was just thinking about making movies, Roger and Scott were like, making movies on Super 8. (laughs)

Roger Avary 25:09 Yeah.

Narrator 25:10 And they were making little horror films and little zombie movies on, on, on, on Super 8. And then like-

Roger Avary 25:14 Supernatural thrillers. (laughs)

Narrator 25:15 And they're sh- and they're, well, Word Turns is a zombie movie.

Roger Avary 25:18 Yeah. Well, yeah.

Narrator 25:19 (laughs)

Roger Avary 25:19 What's it... Yeah, it's kind of an... Yeah, it's kind of a zombie movie. Eh, more of an afterlife film.

Narrator 25:24 Okay, maybe. Okay.

Roger Avary 25:25 (laughs)

Narrator 25:26 And, but, uh, uh, but you're making like legit horror films.

Roger Avary 25:29 Yeah.

Narrator 25:29 I'm just thinking about this stuff and these guys are like Sam Raimi-ing it, you know?

Roger Avary 25:32 Mm.

Narrator 25:32 Like Sam Raimi. They're making their, their shit in their backyard and they're working on it for like three months and stuff.

Roger Avary 25:38 Yeah, and um, you know, like I, I was friends with all the punk guys 'cause it was like LA punk. And, um, so they were always in my movies.

Narrator 25:46 Skater punks. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Roger Avary 25:46 All the, all the punks were in my movies 'cause they were media literate.

Narrator 25:49 Mm-hmm.

Roger Avary 25:49 They loved movies, and so they were easy to pull in and, uh, and to be in the films, so they were always playing like, you know, the gang of punks who beat somebody up or something. (laughs)

Narrator 25:57 Mm-hmm.

Quentin Tarantino 25:58 So it must've been cool working at a video store, though, because it's essentially like you have... It's like an education.

Roger Avary 26:03 Well, when the time came where we actually wanted to be making movies, where we were talking about making movies, 'cause I can remember when, I think it was, it was around the time of Sex, Lies, and Videotape, or maybe-

Narrator 26:14 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Roger Avary 26:14 ... She's Gotta Have It.

Narrator 26:15 No, no. Definitely Sex, Lies, and Videotape.

Roger Avary 26:16 But I remember, uh, you coming to me and saying, "The moment is happening."

Narrator 26:21 Yeah, yeah.

Roger Avary 26:21 "It's happening. Like small, a small movie is, is possible to get made. Like, like it's happening for us, for guys our age."

Narrator 26:30 Yeah, I mean-

Roger Avary 26:30 And-

Narrator 26:30 I, I mean the one, you know-

Roger Avary 26:33 It was like-

Narrator 26:33 ... the, the, the Sex, Lies, and Videotape was sort of like the, uh, uh, like the Seattle band that broke.

Roger Avary 26:40 Mm.

Narrator 26:40 All right? But I was already looking at, uh, Blood Simple-

Roger Avary 26:45 Oh, sure.

Narrator 26:46 ... was my-

Quentin Tarantino 26:46 Mm.

Narrator 26:46 ... was my in.

Roger Avary 26:46 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Quentin Tarantino 26:47 That's a great movie.

Narrator 26:47 Was my in, all right? Where it was that was, "Okay, it's an artistic movie. It's ar- it's arty, it's funny. Uh, it can play, it can play the art houses, it can play the art house or it could... But there's a genre base to it."

Roger Avary 27:01 Yeah.

Narrator 27:02 There's a genre base. It's like, you know, it's a thriller. It's a, it's a film noir-y kind of thriller done in a certain kind of way, but it's a genre base. Yeah, I go, "That's the way you do an art film. You do it, you make it a genre base art film."

Roger Avary 27:14 If you keep one foot in, in-

Narrator 27:16 'Cause it's entertaining. (laughs)

Roger Avary 27:17 Yeah, if you keep one foot in exploitation-

Narrator 27:19 Mm-hmm.

Roger Avary 27:19 ... in some way in genre.

Narrator 27:20 Mm-hmm.

Roger Avary 27:21 If you keep your foundation in genre, then you can do whatever you want. Like my favorite filmmaker is Stanley Kubrick. I love Kubrick movies. Okay, one can pretty much look at all of his films and say each and every one is a genre film. He's got a science fiction movie, he's got a horror movie. Even Barry Lyndon as a costume drama, at the time-

Narrator 27:40 As a costume genre, as a genre.

Roger Avary 27:41 That was a, that was a solid, bankable genre.

Narrator 27:44 And the book is, the book is definitely a, a, a, a, a pulpy genre of its time.

Roger Avary 27:47 Well yeah, the book was serialized, wasn't it?

Narrator 27:49 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Roger Avary 27:49 It was like Thackery wrote 'em in like, uh, like in episodes.

Narrator 27:52 Mm-hmm. But that was, but-

Roger Avary 27:52 It was like a soap opera.

Narrator 27:53 But that was a very popular, popular book at that time.

Roger Avary 27:56 Yeah, and so, um, yeah it was all, uh, if you can, if you can... And I knew this making my first film, and I know Quentin, you were talking about it. This was a conversation we were actively having of, "We have to make sure that we make a movie people want to see, like a genre film." Like, and I was calling 'em exploitation movies at the time, like, "I want to keep one foot in exploitation." And then, but at the same time I'm like, "Well, I kind of also want to make like, you know, I want to elevate it as much as possible." And so when the time came for me to make my first,

Roger Avary 28:27 first film, uh, Killing Zoe, um, you know, it was like I knew it was gonna be a bank robbery because I wrote it around a location. You know, we, we found this while they were scouting for, uh, Reservoir Dogs, Lawrence Bender.

Narrator 28:40 Uh-huh.

Roger Avary 28:40 Uh, I, or maybe you also had scouted that location.

Narrator 28:43 Yeah, yeah.

Roger Avary 28:43 Found this bank location. And Lawrence called me up and he's like, "Hey, I'm calling all the writers I know. I found this bank location and if you can, if you have a script that takes place in a bank-"

Narrator 28:52 Mm-hmm.

Roger Avary 28:53 "... we can kick together a couple hundred thousand dollars and make a movie there. It's like this complete, solid, amazing location." And I said, "Oh my god. Lawrence, this is your lucky day. I, I happen to have a script that takes place in a bank." And then I just quickly wrote one. (laughs)

Narrator 29:06 (laughs)

Roger Avary 29:07 Like, based on the location. And as I was writing it, I was thinking, "Okay, um, you know, I know that it's gonna be a bank robbery. It's a bank, and so I know it's gonna be a bank robbery and that's my solid, bankable genre that I'm going to, uh, to stick with." But I knew I wanted to do something more with it, and I had just traveled through Europe and, uh, and I'd been telling Quentin the stories, uh, of traveling through Europe. He's like, "Oh, you should do a movie called Roger Takes a Trip." And, uh-

Narrator 29:35 I still think it should've been called that. (laughs)

Roger Avary 29:37 Well, I think it's a different movie.

Narrator 29:38 Yeah. (laughs)

Roger Avary 29:38 I think it's a different... I don't think it's a-

Narrator 29:40 No, you kinda made Roger Takes a Trip.

Roger Avary 29:42 (laughs)

Narrator 29:42 Just added bank robbers in it.

Roger Avary 29:43 I had been-

Narrator 29:44 But it's still Roger Takes a Trip.

Quentin Tarantino 29:45 (laughs)

Roger Avary 29:45 I had been in Paris, I had bumped into a guy that I knew from Los Angeles who was a French guy, and he was like, "Oh, I show you the real Paris." And I went out with he and his friends, Enric, Jeanne, Claude, all the characters from the movie. I went out with him and his friends and we, uh, you know, he drove me through Paris and next thing I know, he's doing heroin and I'm like... And, and it started-

Quentin Tarantino 30:06 With you?

Roger Avary 30:06 No, not with me. I, I, uh-

Narrator 30:08 And now we do heroin.

Quentin Tarantino 30:09 (laughs)

Roger Avary 30:09 Yeah, he was like, "Now we do heroin. Hold my arm." I did hold his arm. And like I had never-

Quentin Tarantino 30:13 For real?

Roger Avary 30:14 Yeah, yeah.

Quentin Tarantino 30:14 Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Narrator 30:14 (laughs)

Roger Avary 30:14 I had never seen anything like that.

Quentin Tarantino 30:16 Like, he tied his arm off? He's like, "Hold my arm."

Narrator 30:18 No, no, no.

Roger Avary 30:18 "Hold my arm."

Quentin Tarantino 30:19 "He hold my-"

Narrator 30:19 He, he, he was the tying off.

Roger Avary 30:20 Yeah. "You-"

Narrator 30:21 Roger was the tying off.

Roger Avary 30:21 "Roger, hold my arm while I shoot up."

Quentin Tarantino 30:23 Geez.

Roger Avary 30:24 So-

Narrator 30:24 But like, he doesn't quite know that this is all gonna happen, that, that the, that everything else has been a preamble to this.

Quentin Tarantino 30:30 (laughs)

Roger Avary 30:30 Yeah, suddenly that happens and then it's-

Quentin Tarantino 30:32 He just needed a heroin partner.

Roger Avary 30:33 Yeah, his friends are like, "Oh, doing it in the nose doesn't even affect me anymore." You know, things like... And I'm, and I'm like writing these lines down like, "This is great shit." (laughs)

Quentin Tarantino 30:42 (laughs)

Roger Avary 30:43 And so I get back and I tell Quentin like about this whole story and about these guys and going, you know, driving around the Champs-Élysées and, "Ah, this is where the fags sell themselves." (laughs)

Quentin Tarantino 30:55 (laughs)

Narrator 30:55 (laughs)

Roger Avary 30:55 "Oh, now we go into the, into the nightclub down below and we do more heroin." And I'm like, "Well, what about the cops?"

Quentin Tarantino 31:01 Whoa.

Roger Avary 31:01 "Aren't the police gonna say anything?" "It's safer here than on the..." You know. And like, "You can do heroin anywhere."... there in Paris. And it was like, uh, uh-

Quentin Tarantino 31:09 (laughs)

Roger Avary 31:09 "No, I work at Le Mond. Like, all of it was, like, basically everything in that movie I, you know, was stuff that I'd actually seen. And so when the time came to make it as a bank robbery film, I just, you know, I'm thinking about it and I'm like, "Well, it's a bank robbery movie, but it's going to be about these guys." And it just became a movie about a guy going some place and the, and everything that he thought he knew is wrong. You know, like, you think, you know, you haven't seen your friend in a while, you go see him. Okay, uh, it, it's all about that, that kind of friendship and misconception that he's downstairs in the bank, Jean-Hugues Anglade, the bad guy, is upstairs. The chaos is going on upstairs; he has no idea what's going on upstairs. And so this kind of just became what the movie was about. And so I just quickly wrote the script, and then, uh, you know, we ended up not even using that location-

Quentin Tarantino 32:01 Mm-hmm.

Roger Avary 32:01 ... to shoot the movie in. It, uh, it came together later, and I ended up shooting in Downtown LA instead.

Quentin Tarantino 32:07 Mm-hmm.

Roger Avary 32:07 But, but it was, uh-

Quentin Tarantino 32:08 The seed was planted.

Roger Avary 32:09 The seed was planted. So the idea was, okay, I'm gonna make a French film out of it. Uh, 'cause I, I'm, like, in LA, I'm making a film and, like, "What can I do that would be different? Like, that would make this more than just a bank robbery movie?" And because of the experience I had just had, I was like, "Oh, I'm gonna make a French film." Okay, I had no business making a French movie.

Quentin Tarantino 32:27 (laughs)

Roger Avary 32:29 I didn't even really speak French.

Quentin Tarantino 32:31 (laughs)

Roger Avary 32:31 I just thought it would be kinda cool. I, like, you know, a f- cool French girl, and, like, greasy, dirty French guys, cr- French criminals, and I always loved, you know, Alain Delon and Le Samourai, you know, the way he wears a suit and the way he carries a gun-

Quentin Tarantino 32:46 Yeah.

Roger Avary 32:46 ... and the way he walks around. And I just, like, I, uh, you know, just adored all of that. And so it was like, "Well, let's put all of that kind of space that's in my brain into the movie." And then, the, uh, the movies tend to take on a life of their own. They tend to be like children. You know, it starts off as a concept, as a conception, it has a conception, and then it has an infancy, and then you're raising that child to become the movie. And along the way you're really just kinda protecting it and trying to allow it to grow into what it's gonna grow into without forcing it to become something that it's not. And, and it's a little bit of a balance. You have to be a good parent, which means you have to give it a little bit of freedom to grow into something that you don't know what it's gonna be, but at the same time, you have to be willing to, you know, be strong with it as well. And so-

Quentin Tarantino 33:31 That's a very underappreciated movie.

Roger Avary 33:34 Uh-

Quentin Tarantino 33:34 It's a fucking great movie. Yeah.

Roger Avary 33:35 I think I'm, I think I'm really good-

Quentin Tarantino 33:37 (laughs)

Roger Avary 33:37 ... at making underappreciated movies.

Quentin Tarantino 33:38 (laughs)

Roger Avary 33:38 I think I've had a, I've built a career-

Quentin Tarantino 33:40 Well, those are the-

Roger Avary 33:41 ... on underappreciated movies. (laughs)

Quentin Tarantino 33:42 Those are the classics that you would look for in a video store.

Narrator 33:44 Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Quentin Tarantino 33:45 You'd look for the movies that were really good that no one knew about.

Roger Avary 33:47 Dark Day Afternoon's not in, but (laughs) -

Quentin Tarantino 33:50 Right.

Roger Avary 33:50 ... we could get you Killing Zoe. (laughs)

Quentin Tarantino 33:52 Right.

Narrator 33:52 My favorite moment in the movie... Well, I like it when the guy gets burned alive. All right, you know, the, the, the hamburger scene. All right, yeah, yeah.

Roger Avary 33:59 So that was, yeah-

Narrator 33:59 But, uh, uh, I remember they were trying to talk you to cut out of that. You go, "No, no, you can't cut that out. I'm taking my name off if you cut that out."

Roger Avary 34:04 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Quentin Tarantino 34:05 (laughs)

Roger Avary 34:06 Uh, uh-

Narrator 34:06 Uh, uh...

Roger Avary 34:06 No, Quentin did that. Actually, Quentin was a great gorilla to have on my side-

Narrator 34:09 Yeah.

Roger Avary 34:09 ... at, at that time.

Narrator 34:10 But, uh, uh-

Quentin Tarantino 34:11 Why would they tell you to cut that out?

Narrator 34:13 Well, it was, they're like, "Well, I don't know. It's too-"

Roger Avary 34:14 Everyone is afraid.

Narrator 34:15 "... Is it too rough? Is it too rough? It's too..." But, yeah, okay.

Roger Avary 34:16 Everyone's afraid. Everyone operate out of fear.

Narrator 34:18 If you take that out, I'm taking my name off the film.

Roger Avary 34:19 The only people that don't operate out of fear, I think, is the director and the actors.

Narrator 34:23 (laughs)

Roger Avary 34:23 Those are the ones who, if everything's working right, you're fearless.

Quentin Tarantino 34:26 It's always executives that fuck everything up.

Roger Avary 34:28 Yeah.

Narrator 34:28 But it's the scene, that my se- my favorite scene is the scene where Jean-Cla- uh, Hugues Anglade, when he walks into the closeup.

Roger Avary 34:36 Oh, yeah.

Narrator 34:36 And he's just like, "Wait a minute." He's, like, remembering what he heard, and he's rem- and he realizes, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh-

Roger Avary 34:45 Okay, so that's a good example of... Because the movie was shot for-

Narrator 34:48 Explain, explain this, explain this scene better. All right?

Roger Avary 34:49 The s- the scene was shot f- um, the movie-

Narrator 34:51 Explain the scene, explain the scene better.

Roger Avary 34:52 I will.

Narrator 34:52 I didn't explain it well.

Roger Avary 34:52 The movie was shot for m- for very little money. We had no money to make it, and so I had to shoot the entire upstairs first and then the downstairs. Y- because it's like doing a company move. But I had kept, I, I knew that, you know, when writing, and this was sort of a, a kind of a rule that we had was, um, one, make a genre movie. Two-

Narrator 35:12 Explain the scene!

Roger Avary 35:13 I'm going to. I... (laughs)

Narrator 35:15 (laughs)

Quentin Tarantino 35:15 (laughs)

Narrator 35:16 I said explain the scene!

Roger Avary 35:17 Okay.

Narrator 35:17 Don't tell me that you-

Roger Avary 35:18 The scene-

Narrator 35:18 ... what you felt about it that moment.

Roger Avary 35:20 The scene, actually-

Quentin Tarantino 35:20 You missed the exit. (laughs)

Narrator 35:21 (laughs)

Roger Avary 35:21 The scene was a replacement for another scene that was in the movie that was too expensive to shoot. That's the shortage.

Narrator 35:26 What does that have to do with what I like?

Quentin Tarantino 35:28 (laughs)

Roger Avary 35:28 What I replaced it with was, and I had to fight for it, was a single shot.

Narrator 35:32 Yes, okay.

Roger Avary 35:32 Because originally he goes downstairs and he sees a bunch of, like, uh, guys coming in through the sewer. So he goes in, (imitates gun firing) starts machine-gunning people in the sewer.

Narrator 35:39 (laughs)

Roger Avary 35:39 'Cause there was, like, a little sewer manhole in the bottom of the bank. I was like, "Well, let's use that." And so I had this whole thing, and the bond company showed up, and they were like, "You're behind schedule, and you've gotta, like, uh, you know, we're gonna, you gotta cut pages." And I couldn't cut anything, and I'm shooting upstairs downstairs stuff, and so it's like I had to have something, 'cause he leaves the scene and then comes back angry. And so I knew, I, I knew I needed to have something, and I originally had this whole scene where the cops are coming in and he reacts to that. And so I said, "Well, okay, I just need one shot." And, 'cause it's all I could, had time to do-

Quentin Tarantino 36:11 Mm-hmm.

Roger Avary 36:11 ... 'cause of the fucking bond company. And so I set up the, which were actually really cool to me. Uh-

Quentin Tarantino 36:15 Mm-hmm.

Roger Avary 36:16 They were actually, film finances was great. (laughs)

Quentin Tarantino 36:19 (laughs)

Roger Avary 36:19 They, um, I, I just set up a single camera. I, I asked for a, kind of a Kubrickian lens, uh, a nice wide, like, maybe a 14 millimeter lens. And I just had Jean-Hugues walk up into a closeup-

Quentin Tarantino 36:29 Mm-hmm.

Roger Avary 36:30 ... and I just had him do, uh, I, I said, "Just walk into a closeup and just start looking around and just start seeing things coming out of the walls."

Narrator 36:38 Well-

Roger Avary 36:39 And-

Narrator 36:39 No, no, no, no.

Roger Avary 36:40 Is that the shot you're talking about? And he does, like, a little magic trick beforehand, like, "Brring."

Narrator 36:44 No.

Roger Avary 36:44 Is that the one you're... That's not the one you're talking about?

Narrator 36:46 No.

Roger Avary 36:46 That's the great shot. That's a great shot.

Narrator 36:49 No, the scene I'm talking about is... But that's why I wanted you to explain it, because I hadn't seen it in a long time. But it was, um-

Quentin Tarantino 36:56 Here it is.

Roger Avary 36:56 See, is that the shot?

Narrator 36:57 Well, that's the shot.

Roger Avary 36:58 That's the shot I'm talking about. Look, he's looking into the walls. He's wa- looking around.

Narrator 37:03 But I thought the whole idea about it is the idea that-

Roger Avary 37:08 ... I added those lines of dialogue in.

Narrator 37:10 No, but I thought the-

Roger Avary 37:11 I did some ADR.

Narrator 37:12 I, I thought the whole idea i- I thought the whole idea is, is he puts it all together. He realizes there's something going on, that the cops are doing this, or, uh, uh, Eric Stoltz is, is dirty with him, all th- ... And it all hits him. He's-

Roger Avary 37:24 It does.

Narrator 37:24 ... he's ready to do something else, and he walks into a close-up, and it all hits him. But now we, the audience, know what's going on. (laughs)

Roger Avary 37:31 Y- yeah.

Narrator 37:31 And then he's just like, "Wait a minute."

Roger Avary 37:34 Well, it just shows that sometimes if you can't do what you want to do-

Narrator 37:37 Mm-hmm.

Roger Avary 37:37 ... what you come up with is better.

Narrator 37:39 Mm.

Roger Avary 37:39 And this was an example of, "It rained that day, and I had to use-"

Narrator 37:43 Okay.

Roger Avary 37:43 "... the rain." That's sort of the example.

Narrator 37:45 I know.

Quentin Tarantino 37:45 Mm.

Narrator 37:45 But the frustrating part for me about what you're talk- is like, I don't care how the sausage was made.

Quentin Tarantino 37:49 (laughs)

Roger Avary 37:49 (laughs)

Narrator 37:49 I like the sausage. I wanted you to talk about the sausage.

Roger Avary 37:52 Well-

Narrator 37:52 Not the, not the factory.

Quentin Tarantino 37:57 (laughing)

Roger Avary 37:58 You don't wanna know what's in that sausage.

Narrator 37:59 Yeah, I wanted to just hear-

Roger Avary 38:00 You have no interest in that.

Narrator 38:01 I wanted to hear about the Italian sweetness.

Quentin Tarantino 38:03 (laughs)

Narrator 38:05 (laughs)

Roger Avary 38:05 Well, it was very sweet, but it started off sour.

Narrator 38:07 (laughs)

Quentin Tarantino 38:07 (laughs)

Roger Avary 38:07 It started off sour, because I couldn't do what I wanted to do.

Narrator 38:10 Mm.

Roger Avary 38:10 And so I just came up with something that was, well, he puts it together in his head. But, and I-

Narrator 38:14 No, I mean, I, uh, I still think that sequence is exhilarating, 'cause it's all abo- it all goes, boils down to an actor's face.

Roger Avary 38:20 Well, I had Tom Savini on the set, 'cause, uh, and I couldn't afford Tom Savini, but I found his number, and before I shot, and I called him up, and, in Pittsburgh, and I said... Tom Savini's a makeup effects artist who did Dawn of the Dead.

Narrator 38:33 He did all the effects for Dawn of the Dead.

Quentin Tarantino 38:34 Oh, wow.

Roger Avary 38:34 Like, and, uh, not to mention all the great sla- Friday the 13th, all the slasher movies.

Narrator 38:38 Yeah.

Roger Avary 38:38 Like-

Narrator 38:38 He's the superstar of, of, of practical makeup effects of horror films of that era.

Roger Avary 38:42 He was in Vietnam, and saw some shit. And every time I'm talking to him about stuff, like, he's like, "Oh, yeah, well, you know, no, if you're bleeding from back here, you know, there's only two small veins, and blah, blah, 'cause when your head gets knocked off..." Like, he's seen all this stuff, and so th- this is his way of processing it. But Tom came in, and I couldn't afford him. I called him up on the phone. I was like, "Hey, can you, do you think, uh, I'm a f- young filmmaker. I'm, uh, you know, I'm your biggest fan." Uh, bl- I, I, d- I, like, y- the makeup effects, blah, blah, blah. Okay, he flew himself out. We had no money to pay him. I think we paid him, like, s- some tiny amount. He flew himself to LA, put himself up, worked on the film, and he made that burn makeup on that burned-

Narrator 39:26 Oh, man, yeah.

Roger Avary 39:26 ... guard in the vault out of Vaseline, paint, and tissue paper. And I watched him make... It was the most unbelievable thing, how he made blisters and burn effects, and it was like watching one of the great artists work.

Narrator 39:40 Yeah.

Roger Avary 39:40 Uh, Tom is, uh, m- incredible guy. He's an incredible, incredible guy.

Narrator 39:46 Where you were asking earlier on about, uh, well, w- w- y- you're working at a video store. Did you ever think, you know, when did you start thinking about making your own stuff? Well, I was thinking about making my own stuff for like a long, long, long time, but these guys were actually doing it. Um, but there is a truth. While I thought about it f- like, for a long, long time, and, and always figured I would do that eventually, I did fall asleep for a few years. You know? It wa- uh, uh, because, uh, working at that store, I just got caught up in the little life there. And it was, you know, i- it's interesting, because, um, you know, you spent your 20s going to comedy clubs and, you know, building, building a career. So I'm spending my 20s there, and well, it's one of those things where it's like, "Well, this isn't my dream." (laughs)

Quentin Tarantino 40:39 (laughs)

Narrator 40:39 "This isn't what I wanted to do, working at a video store for years. Uh, I wanted to actually make movies. It's not my dream, what I'm doing, but it's dream-adjacent. It's, it's close to my dream. It's close to my dream. I get to watch movies all fucking day."

Quentin Tarantino 40:57 (laughs)

Narrator 40:57 "I get to talk about movies all fucking day. I don't have to work, uh, at a pizza parlor. I don't have to... I'm not delivering pizzas. I'm not, I'm not a, I'm not busting ass, uh, as a bartender. I'm not busting ass doing menial jobs." I mean, this is the kinda job I, uh, uh, uh, that, you know, I, I'd do if I... I'd, I'd go to this store if I wasn't paid to go to this store.

Quentin Tarantino 41:17 Mm.

Narrator 41:18 You know, so it's like, you know, but, but for a couple years, it did put me to sleep. It did kind of put me to sleep. It, it, it put my ambitions to sleep-

Quentin Tarantino 41:26 Mm.

Narrator 41:26 ... for a little bit, because I was happy enough.

Quentin Tarantino 41:29 Yeah.

Narrator 41:30 I was happy, uh, and just thought that one of these days, I'll...

Roger Avary 41:33 Right, but you didn't have the fire.

Narrator 41:35 I didn't have the fire. And when I got the fire, when I eventually got the fire back again, and it was a life-changing thing. It was a life-changing day. It was, um, we had a buddy of ours named Steve-O.

Roger Avary 41:51 Yeah.

Narrator 41:51 And I, he was one, uh, he, uh, uh, um, we had different living arrangements, and at one point in time, me and Steve-O were living in the same house together, renting a, a, a, in the back of the, towards the back of the store.

Roger Avary 42:02 The dude house.

Narrator 42:03 Yeah. (laughs) It was where everyone would hang out. And, um, but now, Steve-O was older than the rest of us, so if like, he was about like, almost five years older than us, but he, he didn't seem like it. He was a young guy, like-

Roger Avary 42:17 Yeah, like five years younger mentally. (laughs)

Narrator 42:19 (laughs)

Quentin Tarantino 42:20 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Roger Avary 42:20 Or emotionally.

Narrator 42:21 Yeah, yeah. And, um, but... So he hits 30, and he starts changing.

Roger Avary 42:30 Yeah.

Narrator 42:30 He starts changing, like drastically. He's at, I mean, he was like, the f- one of the funniest guys I ever knew.

Roger Avary 42:35 Yeah.

Narrator 42:35 And he was this really, really funny stoner dude, and really cool. And all of a sudden, he's like angry about things. And now he's not quite as funny, and now he's got this issue. And so we're, we're roommates, and there's this one night that he's kind of like all, he's kind of disgusted with his life, and he starts ranting. And he, and, and he's describing a situation that was very common if you were a kid growing up without a, you know, without a degree or anything in, in the '80s, especially in California, where it's like you can't get any really good jobs, but like, you can work at l- uh, Licorice Pizza.And if you're an okay employee, you could, like, work at Licorice Pizza for a couple of years and maybe you could even become assistant manager or a manager and maybe they send you to another store and- and maybe you work there for three years and that's really great. But then, you know, all of a sudden, uh, a district manager doesn't like you, you run afoul of somebody, uh, higher up in corporate and all of a sudden, next thing you know, you're fired and you're out on the street.

43:40 Again, it's management.

43:41 Yeah.

43:41 Yeah.

43:42 Okay. And so now you've just spent three years at Licorice Pizza. Now- now you could get a job at TRW or some other place that's like a real job job or, uh, well those are kind of hard to get, but you can work at Warehouse Records and Tapes tomorrow 'cause you just had three years at Licorice Pizza.

43:58 Mm.

43:58 Same thing with Wild West Clothier, same thing with Miller's Outpost, same thing with any of these kind of stores. Next thing you know, you're 28 and the only jobs you've ever had are minimum wage jobs behind a counter that it- that- that were designed for kids to pay for their gas. (laughs)

44:15 Right.

44:16 And then- and you've, like, spent your entire 20s doing that. (laughs)

44:19 And then you start getting bitter.

44:21 And then you start getting bitter. And- but- but he was not just bad- bitter about the job aspect of it, he- but he- I knew he- oh my God, he's telling me the truth. He- I'm learning something here 'cause he- you know, he goes, "You know, you know, Quentin, you think that we're this really great team, we're this really great crew. Well, we are." I mean, you know, it's that time in your 20s where, like, your- your group of friends are your family, you know? And I'm like, "Well, we are." "Quentin, at 20, I worked at South Bay Cinemas and I hung out with a bunch of guys just like you (laughs) and some girls there too, but it was a bunch of guys just like you. And then I stopped working at South Bay Cinema, then I worked at Miller's Outpost and hung out and- with a bunch of guys just like you and we did everything, just like we do. We went to movies together, we went out and we, uh, dated amongst the girls there, everything. Then I worked at Licorice Pizza for far- far- four years with a bunch of guys just like you."

45:22 (laughs)

45:24 "I've wasted my life hanging out with a bunch of guys just like you." (laughs) And they all go away at a certain point. And I realized, this guy is kind of telling the truth. I- this- he's showing me a- a truth about him- he- he's- he- I'm- I'm- uh... This is coming from somewhere. And then all of a sudden, he still hung around us, he still liked us, but then he started making it a point to, uh, touch base with some of his high school friends that were still around.

45:53 Hm.

45:53 So he's not just hanging out with guys four years younger or five years younger than him. Anyway, I'm turning 25 around this time, so I'm having my own little, "Okay, well what have I done with my life so far?" So far fucking nothing. So I'm having my own little anxiety hitting 25, but I'm seeing what it it's like five years from now (laughs) .

46:16 Yeah.

46:16 When you turn 30.

46:17 A window to the future.

46:19 Yeah.

46:19 When you're turning 30 and you're in this situation. And- and there was, like, one night that I had what I used to call, I would do it every once in a while, I haven't done it in a long time thank- thankfully. I would have a Quentin Detest Fest-

46:35 Mm.

46:36 ... where I'd stay up all night long and rather than give myself excuses, I would look at everything that I'm fucking up in my life or everything I'm not doing or whatever and just not give myself any fucking excuses out, just like nail it. And I would spend, like, all night laying out everything I'm doing that's wrong and then I would spend the last two hours figuring out how I can change it. (laughs)

47:02 Mm.

47:02 And as opposed to just doing it and then going to get some sleep an- and then you forget about it and fall back into your, you know, your routine, um, I decided to change my life. And I was like, "Look, the problem is- is that I'm living in the South Bay and even though I drive to Los Angeles, I n- one, I gotta not worry about this job anymore, I gotta just move to Hollywood, I gotta get involved there, I gotta meet other people that are in th- the business. And if I have to work manpower jobs, you know, where you just work, like, four days at this place and four days at that place, well then that's fine. And by the way, I shouldn't be making money until I'm making money doing what I wanna do." (laughs)

47:40 Mm.

47:42 And, not that a- that was ever a danger all right? But, uh, um, uh, but then, you know, the next thing I knew, you know, I was, uh, I had moved out of the South Bay and then I couldn't move into Hollywood, I couldn't afford Hollywood but I could afford Koreatown and that was close enough. And, uh, and literally the minute I kind of moved out there, I met a guy who wrote, uh, uh, low-budget horror movies and then through him I met other guys that wrote low-budget horror movies and this guy who directs a few low-budget horror movies and this guy who produces a couple. And well, but yeah, you meet one person and that introduces you to three other people. Now all of a sudden I actually knew people who were actually making movies and the other thing about it was it was like also, "Well if these guys can do it, I can do it." (laughs)

48:29 Mm.

48:29 Because they weren't too special.

48:31 Right.

48:31 Yeah.

48:31 You know? Um, um, but-

48:32 That's the weird realization that you end up having. (laughs)

48:35 Yeah. Uh, uh, and- and then literally it wasn't like everything changed, but, like, within a year and a half from moving out of the South Bay and moving into the Hollywood area, within a year and a half I was finally able to make a living as a- as a writer. You know, getting like a- a $7,000 for this rewrite on this script over here, $4,000 for this polish over here, another $10,000 for this rewrite over here. Well shit, I mean I would make $10,000 a year-

49:04 Yeah.

49:04 ... uh, uh, through all of my 20s be- before that point so, uh, if I can make, like- if I can make $15,000 from writing, oh my God, that- that was the greatest thing in the world.

49:14 Wow. But it- it just takes being around people that are actually doing it so you realize it's possible.

49:20 Well- well the- what- it's the realizing it's possible but it's also- but it's also a situation where it's, like-... um, as oppo-, you know, as opposed to talking to your buddies about comedy in Minnesota, (laughs) your buddies who like comedy. No, you're at The Comedy Store and you're dealing with comedians-

Joe Rogan 49:38 Right.

Narrator 49:38 ... every fucking night.

Joe Rogan 49:39 Yes.

Narrator 49:40 And you're with the, the, you know, you're in the place where the shit happens and you're, you're, you're hearing how the laughs work. But also, it's like you know what's going on. "Oh, Caroline's Comedy Hour is doing the tryouts for this." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:51 Yeah.

Narrator 49:51 And, you know, uh, Chu, uh, uh, uh, Chuckles or is, is doing this thing or that thing. "Oh, and there's this sitcom going and there's the, The Funny Neighbor Guy." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:00 Yeah.

Narrator 50:00 At any moment-

50:00 You're, you're in the, you're in the ... You're plugged in.

Joe Rogan 50:02 Yeah.

Narrator 50:02 Yeah. At any moment, there's a circle of people rising-

Joe Rogan 50:05 Mm-hmm.

Narrator 50:05 ... in any industry.

Joe Rogan 50:06 Yes.

Narrator 50:06 And, uh, y- it's just a matter of finding those people, and those people will all gravitate towards the same things.

Joe Rogan 50:12 Yeah.

Narrator 50:12 Yeah, and they have the thing where it's sort of like, you know, like, "Hey, Benny, we, we have a, a spot for you that could be really..." "You know, I can't do it, but my friend Joe could do it. Can you, can... How about, how about-

Joe Rogan 50:22 Yeah.

Narrator 50:22 ... giving Joe a chance?"

Joe Rogan 50:24 Yeah.

Narrator 50:24 "Okay, well, you, you back Joe up?" "Yeah, I'll back Joe up." "Okay, yeah, well let's, let's call your friend Joe. Can he be down here at 9:00?" "Yeah, he can be down here at 9:00." Well, that's how you get a fucking gig.

Joe Rogan 50:33 This is exactly what we-

Narrator 50:35 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:35 ... tried to do when we built the mothership here.

Narrator 50:37 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:37 What we've done. We decided when we left LA, like, we need a place where comics have a hub. And when we were all in Austin, we all-

Narrator 50:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:44 ... just moved to Austin because of the pandemic.

Narrator 50:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 50:46 And all of a sudden, we were allowed to perform indoors.

Narrator 50:48 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:48 It was crazy. In November of 2020, we were doing shows indoors. And you know, you couldn't go on Twitter because they would call you a b- super spreader or-

Narrator 50:56 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:56 ... a, a fucking monster. But everybody started moving here, and by the, you know, by the time 2020 rolls around, there's like 15, 16 world-class comedians-

Narrator 51:05 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:05 ... that didn't used to live in Austin that are here now. And we were like, "Let's, let's build a club."

Narrator 51:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:09 So we bought the Ritz Theatre, uh, where-

Narrator 51:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:12 ... uh, you know, some of your movies have played. (laughs)

Narrator 51:14 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:14 It's fucking crazy. And when we put it together, the, the whole idea was like have a place where people can come. We have two nights of open mic nights-

Narrator 51:22 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:22 ... Monday and T- or, uh, Sunday and Monday night. So there's always a chance to get on stage.

Narrator 51:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:28 There's always a guy. There's a real t- talen- Igen, is a r- Adam Igen is a real talent coordinator. He's really gonna watch you, he's really gonna give you advice. And you're around the best comics in the world all the time.

Narrator 51:38 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:38 And everybody knows it's possible. And everybody treats you the way you would want to be treated if you were starting. So you're just one of us, you just started, but you're not, we're not better than you. We're not, we're not, there's nothing special about us.

Narrator 51:49 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:49 We're just telling you. We, we started walking and now we're 15 miles in. You're 15 feet in. Just keep walking.

Narrator 51:56 Yeah.

51:56 Okay, but let me, okay, but let me ask you a que- let me ask you a question, 'cause it, you know, when I watch some of the things on The Comedy Store now, 'cause you know I'm, I really love going to The Comedy Store.

Joe Rogan 52:03 Yeah.

Narrator 52:03 You know. And, and they treat me really great there, it's really cool. All right, um, but you know, it ... The mythology of the place is you go down there on open mic night, and if you have something to offer-

Joe Rogan 52:17 Yeah.

Narrator 52:18 ... you know, then you, you know, you work your way up and then you're the doorman and then, you know-

Joe Rogan 52:21 Mm-hmm.

Narrator 52:21 ... you, you work your way up. But it seems like that was then, that was a long time ago. Now it seems like people are almost paying 10 years, uh, right, or eight years before they actually are getting up and getting paid.

Joe Rogan 52:39 Not necessarily. Um, like Tony Hinchcliffe started at The Comedy Store.

Narrator 52:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:43 He started as a doorman.

Narrator 52:44 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 52:44 You know, and he worked his way up to selling out Madison Square Garden two nights in a row.

Narrator 52:47 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:48 I mean, y- it, it is possible to still be a doorman. And I met Tony when he was just a start now.

Narrator 52:53 Oh, no. I'm, I'm figuring that that's a spot, but it seems like ... But if you have to wait five years ... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:58 Well, you don't get good for 10 years.

Narrator 53:00 Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, that makes sense.

Joe Rogan 53:01 It takes forever. Comedy is like making a mountain out of layers of paint.

Narrator 53:05 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:05 It takes forever.

Narrator 53:06 That makes sense. You have to fail.

Joe Rogan 53:07 Yeah.

Narrator 53:08 You, you have to have the opportunities to fail.

Joe Rogan 53:09 Well, there's also no one who can tell you-

Narrator 53:10 Along the way.

Joe Rogan 53:10 ... how to do it.

Narrator 53:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:11 Like, uh, writing a film, like, you, you know, you have a protagonist, you have the antagonist, you have a plot, you have a, you have a bunch of stuff that you can kind of create and formulate.

Narrator 53:20 Does it ... Would you really, but would you really say that it takes 10 years to be a solid comedian?

Joe Rogan 53:26 It takes 10 years to be a real headliner, like a guy who will do-

Narrator 53:28 Well, a head, well, a headliner that's a, that's a little different.

Joe Rogan 53:30 ... real ...

Narrator 53:30 That's a little different.

Joe Rogan 53:31 Well, that's when you're a real comic.

Narrator 53:32 Yeah, okay.

Joe Rogan 53:32 When you can do an hour.

Narrator 53:34 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:34 You can do an hour and then you could write another hour.

Narrator 53:36 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:36 Like, you, you kind of know who you are, sort of.

Narrator 53:39 'Cause it takes years to build that, that act right there.

53:41 But also, to be a headliner, you have to be enough of a, you have to be enough of a name of a draw to actually draw an audience.

Joe Rogan 53:46 Yes.

Narrator 53:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:47 Yes. And you, you have to ... Usually you go on the road with a headliner and then-

Narrator 53:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:51 ... the people get to see you. "Oh, I remember he was here when Tom Segura was in town."

Narrator 53:55 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:55 "That guy's really good. We saw him then."

Narrator 53:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 53:57 "And he did 15 minutes and now he's gonna do an hour. This should be great."

Narrator 53:59 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 53:59 And it's sort of that kind of a deal.

Narrator 54:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:01 But it, it's the same sort of situation where most g- people don't ... Like, if you're in Pittsburgh, you don't know what to do. You know, you go up, there's a couple of open mic nights, everybody sucks and, and there's no inspiration.

Narrator 54:12 It's that setup for a comedy and it's in a fucking pizza parlor.

Joe Rogan 54:14 Right.

Narrator 54:14 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:15 Exactly. And it's good on the weekends-

Narrator 54:17 And if it doesn't wor- and it doesn't work and you go, "Well, I guess this is not for me."

Joe Rogan 54:19 Right.

Narrator 54:19 (laughs)

54:19 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:19 It's good on the weekends 'cause they'll fly in, you know-

Narrator 54:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:21 ... Greg Fitzsimmons, some headliner.

Narrator 54:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:23 And you get to see a real comic for a weekend, so you get a little bit of an education from that. And maybe if you're lucky, the club owner will let you open for him or do 10 minutes on that show and you kind of like get a feel what it's like to perform in front of a real audience that's there to see a real comic. But you gotta be around ... Like, comedy doesn't exist in a vacuum. There's no great comedian that lives in some small town by himself.

Narrator 54:46 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:46 Like think, you could find some great blues artist that's-

Narrator 54:48 Or a great novelist. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:50 Yes, yes. Novelist is probably the best one-

Narrator 54:51 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:51 ... 'cause you kind of live in your own head.

Narrator 54:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:53 But you, you have to be around the other people that are doing it.

Narrator 54:56 Which is exactly why Quentin moved to Hollywood.

54:58 (laughs)

54:58 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:58 Yeah, exactly. But it's-

Narrator 54:59 Get away from these losers. (laughs)

55:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:01 You had to do it. But you, you really do have to do it.

Narrator 55:04 You got the dead weight.

55:04 I recall, I recall living in Hollywood as well.

55:07 Yeah, you did. I've, uh ...

55:08 Freaking Franklin.

55:09 Yes, you're right.

55:09 Across from Plummer Park.

Joe Rogan 55:11 Your bitter friend gave you a valuable little piece of information.

Narrator 55:14 Yeah, he did.

55:15 Yeah.

55:15 No, very much so.

Joe Rogan 55:15 You need those, you need those l- moments.

Narrator 55:17 Oh, I knew I was hearing the truth.

55:19 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:19 Mm-hmm.

Narrator 55:19 And I knew I was hearing a coming attraction.

Joe Rogan 55:21 Yes.

Narrator 55:22 Because I was already feeling it at 25.

Joe Rogan 55:24 Right, right, right.

Narrator 55:25 That I, have I, am I throwing my topsoil years away?

Joe Rogan 55:28 Right, right, the topsoil, exactly. And when, it doesn't come back.

Narrator 55:32 It doesn't come back.

Joe Rogan 55:33 Yeah, you never get to be 21 again. Let's hit reset.

Roger Avary 55:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:35 Yeah. You get one weird march through this life. And if you d- if you have a dream-

Narrator 55:40 Yeah, you can throw it away til 23, but at, from 24 on, you need to be thinking about what you're doing for the rest of your life.

Joe Rogan 55:45 Yeah.

Roger Avary 55:45 Yeah. Get it going. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:47 Yeah, get it going.

Roger Avary 55:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:48 That, well, this, I think these conversations are so important for young people to hear.

Roger Avary 55:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:52 'Cause there's a lot of people out there that do have ideas, and sometimes they have a little bit of a fire, and then maybe they have a job that's kinda cool, like yours was.

Narrator 55:59 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:59 And they, they get sedated.

Roger Avary 56:01 Uh, almost the worst thing that can happen is getting comfortable.

Joe Rogan 56:03 Mm-hmm.

Roger Avary 56:03 Which I think is what you were talking about.

Joe Rogan 56:04 Yes.

Narrator 56:05 This is not, yeah, yeah, but you know, I mean, that, you know, it all worked out, okay? It all worked out really, really good. And the thing about it was, you know, um, I did get comfortable, but I got comfortable in a cool place. And, and ultimately, I did have the energy and the, the wherewithal to ultimately get dissatisfied with it and, and, and want more. You know, the, the alternative would've been me working at, at, uh, uh, a department store (laughs) for those four years. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:30 Hmm, yes, right, right, right, where there's nothing.

Narrator 56:32 And I would've been like really been miserable.

Joe Rogan 56:34 Right, right, right.

Roger Avary 56:35 Yeah.

Narrator 56:35 Here, I'm able to, I mean, you know, in, in this instance, I'm still involved with film. I mean, the, the part, the sedative part was the idea that it was close enough to what I wanted to do.

Joe Rogan 56:45 Right, right, right, right.

Narrator 56:46 It was close enough. I could get com- I could get comfortable.

Joe Rogan 56:49 Well, there's, there's guys like that at the Comedy Store.

Narrator 56:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:51 There's a friend of mine at the Comedy Store that was a, he was a bartender in the back bar.

Narrator 56:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 56:55 And he wanted to be a comic.

Narrator 56:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:56 But he was there, it was like five years after I met him. I'm like, "Hey man, you gotta quit this fucking job."

Narrator 57:01 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:01 'Cause you're here with all the greatest comics in the world, but you're not going on stage. Because you're, and you're making good money.

Narrator 57:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:07 And that's the, that's the, the velvet curtain-

Narrator 57:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:09 ... you know, that's pulled over your eyes.

Narrator 57:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:11 Like...

Roger Avary 57:13 I, I, I worked on Lords of Dogtown, the, the movie about, uh, Zephyr surfboards and skateboarding and polyurethane wheels and surfing. And I'm not like, like a surfer or anything, but my entry point into that movie was Zephyr Surfboards was exactly like Video Archives. And I imagine that this is like this in a lot of places, where, um, you know, you, you have a shop. They make, uh, skate- they do skateboards, and they've got a shaper guy there, you know, Skip Englum, who was uh, a surfboard shaper, and he was sort of like Lance, the guy who owned Video Archives.

Joe Rogan 57:46 Mm-hmm.

Roger Avary 57:47 And he started a shop, and he's selling to all the kids locally. And all the kids who like love surfing, you know, like Stacy Peralta or Tony Alva or guys like that, they would just go hang out there, just like we would go hang out at the video store.

Narrator 58:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:00 Mm-hmm.

Roger Avary 58:00 And so I looked at that, and I was like, okay, I don't really know anything about these guys other than growing up in the beach community. But my real entry point was I understand gravitating towards what you love and wanting to be close to it, and that if a video store is the closest thing to Hollywood in your town, that's where you go.

Joe Rogan 58:19 Mm-hmm.

Narrator 58:19 Hmm.

Roger Avary 58:19 Or if it's, if it's an out-of-the-home theater, and so...

Narrator 58:21 Well, you know, it was, it was, it was funny 'cause, um, when I first started, when I started at the video store, I was like, it was great because, you know, like I said, I got to hang out in this place that I enjoyed, and I'm surrounded by movies and talking about movies all the time.

Roger Avary 58:37 Yeah, access to all those titles.

Narrator 58:39 But then also, there was also the situation of, you know, I became like a little film critic in that town. You know, it was like, I was like the, the, the, the store was my little Village Voice.

Roger Avary 58:50 (laughs)

Narrator 58:50 And I was the Andrew Sarris there. I was the, the critic.

Joe Rogan 58:53 (laughs)

Narrator 58:53 And people would come in, and at a certain point, and be like, "Okay, so Quentin, what should I get?" You know? And the thing is o- and I'm not just like holding court on my own personal taste. Pretty soon, they got a really good idea about my, my taste. But the thing is, I'm usually gearing it towards the people, you know? I'm, I'm not gonna, you know, uh, uh, get some housewife to watch some gonzo movie that I-

Roger Avary 59:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:15 Yeah.

Narrator 59:15 ... gonzo violent movie that I really like. I'm, I'm, I'm gaming, uh, I get to know her taste.

Roger Avary 59:19 You have to tailor, tailor it to her.

Narrator 59:20 And so I'm, you know, putting something in her hand that I think she's gonna, she's gonna appreciate it. I kinda know what kinda comedy she likes, I know who she likes and stuff like that. And so I'm like, you know, really kind of, uh, um, you know, uh, uh, gearing it in a certain, in a certain way. And then that's, that, that felt, that felt really good. You know, it, it felt, like I said, I felt like a film critic.

Joe Rogan 59:41 Hmm, yeah.

Narrator 59:43 You know. But one of the things that I forgot was gonna, I was gonna go somewhere with it, and I forgot. I lost my train of thought.

Joe Rogan 59:47 (laughs)

Narrator 59:48 All right, uh, uh, um, but, uh, um, but one of the things that ended up happening, and if I, I hope I didn't say it the last time I was here. Um, that ended up happening is we became really famous in the neighborhood. We were the video guys.

Roger Avary 1:00:03 Yeah.

Narrator 1:00:04 And you know, our store was a little different than most of the businesses that were in, uh, uh, Manhattan Beach. And so everyone kinda knew us. We were the video guys. So in a strange way, it, it was a, a, um, a precursor to what it would be like to be famous with the whole world kinda knows about you like that.

Joe Rogan 1:00:26 Mm-hmm.

Narrator 1:00:27 In Manhattan Beach, I'm like walking down the street, and people are like, "Hey, Quentin! Hey, hey, Quentin, hey, how you doing? How you doing?" You know, I'm like, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:00:34 Yeah.

Narrator 1:00:34 ... I'm at the, working at the store, and I'm walking to the Jack in the Box to get a Coke and come back. And then, you know, but, uh, uh, we'd walk into the, the Mann's, uh, uh, movie theater. All right, that was by the theater, you know, and, uh, me and two other guys would walk in to go see a movie. And we, we, we'd walk down the aisle, and we'd hear, "Hey, those are the Video Arc guys, guys. Those are the Video Arc guys, guys."

Joe Rogan 1:00:52 Oh, yeah.

Narrator 1:00:53 (laughs)

Roger Avary 1:00:53 I, I, I was in San Francisco once, and, uh, the guys from Red Cross, the punk band-

Narrator 1:00:58 Yeah, yeah.

Roger Avary 1:00:58 ... they were customers of ours. I was like, "Oh, they're, uh, doing a signing at this local record store. I'll just go show up. I'll just show up there on Haight-Ashbury." And I walk in, and immediately the McDonald brother guys were like, "Hey, it's the video store guy."

Narrator 1:01:11 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:12 (laughs)

Roger Avary 1:01:12 "Hey man, come back..." And they're, "Come back behind with us."

Joe Rogan 1:01:17 (laughs)

Roger Avary 1:01:17 I don't think they talked like that.

Joe Rogan 1:01:19 (laughs)

Narrator 1:01:20 They kinda talked like that.

Roger Avary 1:01:20 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:22 It's good to get that slow drip, get a little bit of a taste of it before you actually get famous.

Narrator 1:01:27 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:27 Just to get a feel of, of what it's like.

Roger Avary 1:01:29 Uh, uh, uh, uh, it still doesn't give you the full...

Narrator 1:01:32 Well, oddly enough-

Roger Avary 1:01:32 It's like, you know, "Oh, I'm just gonna smoke a little weed," compared to, "I'm gonna mainline, uh, you know, heroin."

Narrator 1:01:39 Well, oddly enough-

Joe Rogan 1:01:40 (laughs)

Narrator 1:01:40 Oddly enough, the thing that it did was...... it made me feel part of a community, which I had never felt with before. I actually felt part of the Manhattan Beach community-

Joe Rogan 1:01:49 Oh, yeah, Manhattan Beach. Yeah.

Roger Avary 1:01:50 Yeah.

Narrator 1:01:50 I felt part of the Manhattan Beach community. I was part of the Manhattan Beach community.

Joe Rogan 1:01:54 Yeah.

Narrator 1:01:54 You know, the people knew me there, you know?

Roger Avary 1:01:56 Right.

Narrator 1:01:56 And, and I was... I, I was an upstanding member inside of that community.

Roger Avary 1:02:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:00 Mm, yeah. Yeah, the, the fame thing is no one can teach you how to do that.

Roger Avary 1:02:05 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:02:05 There, there's someone... There needs to be, like, a group of people to get together with people that are about to get famous and say-

Narrator 1:02:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:10 ... "Hey, listen."

Roger Avary 1:02:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:11 "We're famous already. Let me tell you how fucking weird this is."

Narrator 1:02:14 (laughs)

Roger Avary 1:02:14 "And I don't know if you're prepared for this." When we were first trying to make True Romance, uh, you know, Quentin had this amazing screenplay, and it was like, uh, we were gonna try to do it Coen brothers style.

Joe Rogan 1:02:24 Yeah, yeah.

Roger Avary 1:02:24 We had just seen Blood Simple and we were like, "Okay, I'm gonna produce, Quentin's gonna direct, we're gonna go out and make this." Our first thought was, "Okay, we've got this database of doctors and lawyers-"

Joe Rogan 1:02:33 (laughs)

Narrator 1:02:34 (laughs)

Roger Avary 1:02:34 "... and housewives in Manhattan Beach. We're gonna go to the video store." You know, we ended up not doing that.

Narrator 1:02:39 Wow.

Joe Rogan 1:02:40 You gonna ask them for money?

Roger Avary 1:02:40 But that was... Well, we never-

Narrator 1:02:41 We were gonna go...

Roger Avary 1:02:42 We never had the balls to actually ask, ask anybody for money.

Joe Rogan 1:02:44 Yeah. (laughs)

Narrator 1:02:45 (laughs)

Roger Avary 1:02:45 Yeah, it was...

Narrator 1:02:47 We talked about them.

Roger Avary 1:02:47 Thinking about getting money and actually getting money are two different things.

Narrator 1:02:49 We str- We strategized about it a lot, but we never actually...

Roger Avary 1:02:52 I drew up full partnership papers before-

Narrator 1:02:54 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:55 (laughs)

Roger Avary 1:02:55 ... uh, before that whole dream failed-

Joe Rogan 1:02:57 (laughs)

Roger Avary 1:02:58 ... of, of doing it that way.

Joe Rogan 1:02:59 Yeah, nobody knows what it's like to actually be successful until you are.

Roger Avary 1:03:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:04 But in the beginning, did you guys feel like pretenders? Did you feel fake? Did you have imposter syndrome?

Narrator 1:03:09 I didn't have imposter syndrome because I did a movie and I was really happy with the film. But the thing is, what I felt like... I'll tell you exactly how I felt. I didn't feel imposter syndrome. Well, I guess a little bit. There is that... all of that, like, waiting for somebody to tap you on the shoulder.

Joe Rogan 1:03:21 Yeah.

Narrator 1:03:21 "What the fuck are you doing here?"

Joe Rogan 1:03:22 "Get out of here."

Roger Avary 1:03:23 Yeah.

Narrator 1:03:23 All right, um-

Roger Avary 1:03:24 Who would let that guy in?

Joe Rogan 1:03:25 Right, get the fuck out.

Narrator 1:03:27 But what I had was... I felt like I was a reporter deep undercover.

Roger Avary 1:03:35 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:35 (laughs)

Narrator 1:03:35 All right? On the opposite side of the line.

Joe Rogan 1:03:38 Right.

Narrator 1:03:38 This isn't really me. I'm like those people over there.

Joe Rogan 1:03:42 Right, right, right.

Narrator 1:03:43 But I'm deep undercover.

Joe Rogan 1:03:45 Right.

Narrator 1:03:45 And I can, I can give you reports from the, from the... from the front-

Joe Rogan 1:03:49 Right.

Narrator 1:03:49 ... of what it's like here on the... on the... on the battle line.

Joe Rogan 1:03:52 Right. Well, maybe that was a good thing, though.

Narrator 1:03:54 It was a really cool thing.

Joe Rogan 1:03:55 Because I think that's-

Narrator 1:03:57 It was neat.

Joe Rogan 1:03:57 ... o- one of the things you did with your films is you did shit that was very risky. Like, we're talking about executives and all these different management people that are gonna come in and fuck with your thing and, "Don't do that," and, "Cut that out." But you, you had a sensibility not of a person in management, but of a person that, "I know what I like. I know what I like and I... and I think... I can think differently than these people do."

Narrator 1:04:21 Oh, no, no. I would... No, I... One of the things we talked about, we had a little theory about it, wa- was, uh, that gave us a bit of a superpower when we were first brought into... Once we had established ourselves, the people knew... They read our scripts so you knew we were... we had something to offer.

Joe Rogan 1:04:37 Yeah.

Narrator 1:04:37 Um, we would walk into rooms and we realized that... And, and, and, and look, I'm not here to make fun of Hollywood executives. Some of those guys-

Joe Rogan 1:04:48 No.

Narrator 1:04:48 Look, look, you don't know how bad some of these movies, th- these scripts are. They actually... Oftentimes they actually make them better.

Joe Rogan 1:04:55 Yeah.

Narrator 1:04:56 They're really, really terrible, all right? They... Some of the, the... When they go through the sausage factory, oftentimes they get better.

Joe Rogan 1:05:02 (laughs)

Narrator 1:05:03 Uh, uh, believe it or not. Um, but the thing is, though, you'd walk in there and... you don't become this super successful executive by being... doubling down on your own opinions. You kind of want to get the temperature and-

Joe Rogan 1:05:25 Right.

Narrator 1:05:25 ... get a consensus going on. Y- y- you're not the maverick. That's not how people establish themselves as executives. Uh, um, the D girl (laughs) doesn't become the head of the development