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Joe Rogan Experience #2241 - Rick Strassman

This episode is brought to you by The Farmer's Dog. Get 50% off your first box by heading to http://thefarmersdog.com/rogan today! Take ownership of your health with AG1 and get a FREE 1-year supply of Vitamin D3+K2 AND 5 free Travel Packs with your first subscription. Go to http://drinkag1.com/joerogan Rick Strassman is a Clinical Associate Professor of Psychiatry at the University of New Mexico School of Medicine. His new book, "My Altered States: A Doctor's Extraordinary Account of Trauma, Psychedelics, and Spiritual Growth," is available now. http://www.rickstrassman.com

Rick StrassmanguestJoe Roganhost
Dec 11, 20243h 11mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:32

    Alaska’s “Boneyard” fossil site and a mammoth-tooth gift

    1. NA

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

    2. RS

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

    3. JR

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music plays) So he's got... Hi, Rick.

    4. RS

      Hi.

    5. JR

      Good to see you, brother.

    6. RS

      Good seeing you, too.

    7. JR

      Um, so he's got this place called The Boneyard, my friend John Reeves in Alaska, and he, he made this for me too. This is, uh-

    8. RS

      Yeah.

    9. JR

      ... like a little skull. That's, uh, a wooly mammoth tooth.

    10. RS

      Man.

    11. JR

      Like a molar.

    12. RS

      Whoa.

    13. JR

      Yeah. So he has this incredible place, and, uh, he was a gold miner and still is, and they started finding, like, an extraordinary amount of tusks and bones and skulls from animals that aren't even supposed to have been there.

    14. RS

      Yeah, yeah.

    15. JR

      And it's kind of rewriting history, but it's all in his land.

    16. RS

      Yeah.

    17. JR

      So he has complete control over it and he has, like... See, there's John. He's this enormous dude. He's like six foot nine, like a big giant man, and he has, um... This is just some of it. Like show those warehouses that he has. So he had a research facility built on his property so they could study this stuff. And if you see outside in the lobby, there's actually a bison skull.

    18. RS

      Oh wow.

    19. JR

      It's like a 10,000-plus-year-old bison skull.

    20. RS

      Wow. A lot of bones.

    21. JR

      So this area is only a few acres. This is what's really crazy. He has one area that's like... I th- I believe it's like four acres, and another area that's about six acres.

    22. RS

      Mm-hmm.

  2. 1:32 – 5:04

    Younger Dryas impact theory, permafrost excavation, and museum controversy

    1. JR

      And there's also like a very heavy layer of carbon, um, that... So it appears there was some sort of a mass fire, and he thinks that this mass extinction event that all the, uh, people like, um, Graham Hancock and Randall Carlson talk about with the end of the Younger Dryas-

    2. RS

      Right.

    3. JR

      ... the Younger Dryas Impact Theory-

    4. RS

      Sure. Yeah, yeah.

    5. JR

      ... he thinks it's connected to this and he thinks that site might have been hit and all these animals probably in the great flood, their carcasses were washed into this sort of valley-

    6. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JR

      ... this one area where they were kind of trapped up against the side of this mountain. And so he hoses the, the mountain down with per- the... It's all permafrost, so it's all been frozen forever, and they have these high-pressure hoses and they hose it until they expose like a tusk.

    8. RS

      Okay.

    9. JR

      And they have... This, this is what they do all day.

    10. RS

      Yeah, those hoses are what they used to use f- uh, for mining gold too.

    11. JR

      Yes.

    12. RS

      Yeah.

    13. JR

      That's why he has them.

    14. RS

      Yeah, yeah.

    15. JR

      Yeah, that's exactly why he has them. He's a gold miner.

    16. RS

      Y- yeah, so this is around the southeast coast?

    17. JR

      I don't know exactly what part of Alaska he's in, but it's really, really amazing stuff.

    18. RS

      Yeah.

    19. JR

      And another thing that he's exposed is that... It's the Smithsonian, right, in New York?

    20. NA

      No.

    21. JR

      No.

    22. NA

      I think it's, uh, American History, AMNH.

    23. JR

      Well, find out what, what-

    24. NA

      American Museum of Natural History.

    25. JR

      Museum of Natural History. So they had, uh, from the same property before he owned it, way back in like I think it was the 30s, they had so many bones from this part of Alaska where the previous people had found them that they didn't have any room to store them so they dumped them in the East River.

    26. RS

      Yeah.

    27. JR

      And see, th- they denied that the previous pe- c- obviously it's people that are long dead. They denied that this happened and so he sent a bunch of divers out there and so they're recovering like these mammoth bones and all these like c- cra- like bison bones, steppe bison bones in the East River-

    28. RS

      Yeah, yeah.

    29. JR

      ... that are all from his property in Alaska.

    30. RS

      Yeah, it'd be, be hard to explain how they got there otherwise.

  3. 5:04 – 6:32

    Fairbanks connections and what Alaska does to people

    1. RS

      Let me... Yeah. Um, let me take a look at that map. You know, I spent my first year after finishing my psychiatry training in Fairbanks.

    2. JR

      Oh, did you really?

    3. RS

      Yeah, yeah.

    4. JR

      That's an interesting psychia- psychiatry place because the psychology of people that live in Alaska is very different.

    5. RS

      Ah.

    6. JR

      They're different. They're resilient humans.

    7. RS

      Well, and they're there for a reason.

    8. JR

      Right.

    9. RS

      And that reason is to be at the end of the road.

    10. JR

      Right.

    11. RS

      Yeah. (laughs)

    12. JR

      Or their family's there and they've grown up there.

    13. RS

      Yeah.

    14. JR

      The, but you, you meet like... I felt like I was meeting people from another country, like I only worked in Alaska once. I did a show in, uh, Anchorage. It was a lot of fun. Me and my friend Ari Shaffir, we said, "Let's just fly up there, just like a- an adventure trip. We'll do some salmon fishing and then we'll go do a show."

    15. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    16. JR

      And that's what we did.

    17. RS

      Yeah.

    18. JR

      And, um, it's like the people feel different, they feel different, like they're more... They're, they're made out of harder things. (laughs)

    19. RS

      (laughs)

    20. JR

      They're like more durable.

    21. RS

      Right. Wh- when you were up there, did you get outside of Anchorage, like into the interior at all?

    22. JR

      We didn't do much traveling.

    23. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    24. JR

      We only kind of w... I've been to Alaska a few times, um, uh, a couple of times for, uh, hunting trips and, um-... I always feel the same way. I always feel like it's another country. It's just, like, very interesting.

    25. RS

      Um, it's, it's a very strange atmosphere too. You know, the climate and-

    26. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    27. RS

      ... the geology and the, you know, feeling, uh, y- you know, because you're up so high-

    28. JR

      Yeah.

    29. RS

      ... o- on the planet.

    30. JR

      Right.

  4. 6:32 – 11:20

    Midnight sun, winter darkness, and pop-culture detours into vampires and the paranormal

    1. JR

      Yeah. When we were doing shows, I believe it was July or August where we were doing shows, and at night, after the show, it was bright out. You go outside, it was like you could see everything. It was, it was weird. It was like, it felt like it was 5:00 PM.

    2. RS

      Uh, it's a very strange feeling. Well, in the winter too. Uh, you have maybe a couple hours of twilight.

    3. JR

      Yeah.

    4. RS

      And that's it. Um-

    5. JR

      And then sometimes all dark for a long time too.

    6. RS

      Well, um, well, that occurs above the Arctic Circle.

    7. JR

      Have you ever seen that movie 30 Days of Night? It's a vampire movie.

    8. RS

      Oh, yeah, with Kiefer Sutherland?

    9. JR

      No.

    10. RS

      Is it-

    11. JR

      No, no, no. That is The Lost Boys.

    12. RS

      Oh, Lost Boys. Right.

    13. JR

      30 Days of Night was cooler.

    14. RS

      Yeah.

    15. JR

      Not that there was anything wrong with The Lost Boys, it just it's a little dated.

    16. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    17. JR

      30 Days of Night is more modern, and these, uh, vampires decide to descend upon this small town where it never turns light so they can just hunt all the time.

    18. RS

      Yeah, that's clever. Yeah, you know, vampires are smarter than they look. (laughs)

    19. JR

      (laughs) These are creepy vampires too. They've got horr- horrifying teeth. It's interesting how, you know, uh, vampires sort of d- we decide that they look like, uh, Bela Lugosi.

    20. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    21. JR

      You know? There's Dracula, that must be a vampire. And then some people, they ... Have you ever wondered like the root of some things like that? Like g- I used to think, I used to like wholly dismiss ghosts as a young man.

    22. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    23. JR

      You know, when I was a boy I believed in them 'cause I was young and dumb, and then as I got older, I was like, "Maybe there's a reason why someone ..." Like, if I've never experienced something and then I do experience it, how am I ever going to explain this to people where it's gonna make any sense to someone else that hasn't experienced it before? This episode is brought to you by The Farmer's Dog. Dogs are amazing. They're loyal, they're lovable. Like, just having Marshall around can make my day 10 times better, and I'm sure you love your dog just as much and you want to do your best to help them live longer, healthier, happier lives. And a healthy life for your dog starts with healthy food, just like it does for us. There's a reason having a balanced diet is so important. So, how do you know if your dog's food is as healthy and as safe as it can be? Well, Farmer's Dog gives you that peace of mind by making fresh, real food developed by board certified nutritionists to provide all the nutrients your dog needs. And their food is human grade, which means it's made to the same quality and safety standards as human food. Very few pet foods are made to this strict standard. And let's be clear, human grade food doesn't mean the food is fancy. It just means it's safe and healthy. It's simple, real food from people who care about what goes into your dog's body. The Farmer's Dog makes it easy to help your dog live a long, healthy life by sending you fresh food that's pre-portioned just for your dog's needs because every dog is different. And I'm not just talking about breeds. From their size to their personality to their health, every dog is unique. Plus, precise portions can help keep your dog at an ideal weight, which is one of the proven predictors of a long life. Look, no one, dog or human, should be eating highly processed foods for every meal. It doesn't matter how old your dog is, it's always a great time to start investing in their health and happiness. So, try The Farmer's Dog today. You can get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food at thefarmersdog.com/rogan. Plus, you get free shipping. Just go to thefarmersdog.com/rogan. Tap the banner or visit this episode's page to learn more. Offer applicable for new customers only. Listen, the holidays are here, which means everyone is traveling. Whatever your plans are, traveling can throw off your routines, and that's where AG1 comes in. AG1 is your quick and easy way to fill nutritional gaps and keep you on track no matter how packed your schedule gets. Keeping AG1's travel packs on you through the thick and thin of holiday travel helps you stick to your routine so you can power through the season and enjoy everything it throws your way. AG1's commitment to foundational nutrition is a science-driven approach that delivers the nutritional support our bodies need to thrive. It helps you elevate your performance and builds a strong foundation for your health. And you can trust them, AG1 is tested for hundreds of contaminants and impurities so you can have no doubts about what you're drinking. This is all part of why I've partnered with AG1 for years. So, get started with AG1 this holiday season and get a free bottle of vitamin D3K2 and five free AG1 travel packs with your first purchase at drinkag1.com/j rogan. That's a $76 value gift for free when you go to drinkag1.com/jrogen. Seriously folks, get on this.

  5. 11:20 – 15:32

    Subjective experience, dreaming analogies, and cultural biology of spiritual states

    1. RS

      Um, well, you're reporting on your subjective experience, right?

    2. JR

      Right.

    3. RS

      And it's one that a lot of people share, and so you can compare notes. It's like dreaming, you can't really prove that you dreamed or that you were in a dream state.

    4. JR

      Right.

    5. RS

      Yeah, it's a personal experience. Yeah, you know, but that's a common one, so you can compare notes. I think that's how it works.

    6. JR

      Haven't there been studies done, there's been something done where they've taken people in altered states and, um, had them go into, uh, a room, or they, well, the experience, they weren't connected and they weren't communicating, but they experienced incredibly similar environments. I think that's in My Big Toe, you know, that, that, um, The Theory of Everything book.

    7. RS

      Mm-hmm. Now, I'm trying to think of it.

    8. JR

      I think it's Thomas Campbell, is that ... No. Is that who wrote that? Yeah, it's really good.

    9. RS

      Yeah.

    10. JR

      I'm in the middle of that right now.

    11. RS

      Uh, The Big Toe.

    12. JR

      Yeah.

    13. RS

      Um-

    14. JR

      It's a very strange book.

    15. RS

      Yeah. That's the name of the book or the name of the experiment?

    16. JR

      That's the name of the book. It's My Big Theory of Everything, you know, toe as for Theory of Everything.

    17. RS

      Oh. Oh, I see. Okay. But it has a picture of a toe on the cover?

    18. JR

      Yeah.

    19. RS

      Yeah.

    20. JR

      When you were doing, um-... the DMT studies, it's kind of a similar thing, right? Like, if you had never experienced that and someone was trying to describe it to you, it would sound completely like nonsense, just like a ghost would.

    21. RS

      Right. O- or even a dream to somebody who had never dreamed.

    22. JR

      Right, right. 'Cause there are people who don't dream, right?

    23. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    24. JR

      Which is very strange.

    25. RS

      Yeah, yeah. Like, there are people with no imagination. They can't visualize things.

    26. JR

      That's so bizarre.

    27. RS

      Yeah. Yeah, and you give them psychedelics, and they report that they can, but, I mean, how do they know that they are? Uh-

    28. JR

      Right. That's an uncomfortable reality, that some people's brains don't work the same way.

    29. RS

      Mm-hmm, right. Yeah.

    30. JR

      You know?

  6. 15:32 – 19:40

    Epigenetics, inherited trauma, fasting, and vision-quest style deprivation

    1. RS

      Yeah. Yes. Y- so you wonder if the atheist's biology is different than the believer's.

    2. JR

      I wonder if it becomes different, right? 'Cause don't genes turn on and off, or expressions of genes, based upon stress, based upon environments-

    3. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    4. JR

      ... based... A lot of things, right?

    5. RS

      Right, right. And those changes can be inherited, you know, like, you know, passed on to the next generation and the next generation.

    6. JR

      That's crazy.

    7. RS

      Yeah. Y- you know, that's a, a theory about the syndrome of survivors of the Holocaust and their children and their children-

    8. JR

      Hmm.

    9. RS

      ... is that the stress of being, for example, in the camps activated certain genes, which were then in an activated state, uh, you know, passed on to the, y- you know, following generations.

    10. JR

      Mmm.

    11. RS

      Yeah, I was, um... We, we, um, we were just, you know, talking about that. Uh, like, at what point does trauma end? What point did the effects of trauma end?

    12. JR

      Right.

    13. RS

      Is it in the first generation or the second? And...

    14. JR

      And it's not just trauma, right? It's also just stress. Like, the hormetic stress of starvation, it actually makes the children of those people live longer.

    15. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    16. JR

      Very... Dr. Rhonda Patrick has talked about this. It's really interesting.

    17. RS

      Yeah. Yeah, that's one of the, um, spinoffs of fasting and starvation. Y- y- uh, you know, there were a, a lot... Well, you know, speaking of starvation, um, you know, there are a lot of studies of enforced starvation, like the camps and in Africa at various times. Yeah. You know, so there are some advantages, uh, but, I mean, obviously to a point.

    18. JR

      Yeah. Obviously we'd never wanna ask someone to do that. But when people do it voluntarily, like when they go on these three- and five-day fasts, I've never met one person who said, "I'll never do that again. That was fucking terrible and stupid."

    19. RS

      Yeah.

    20. JR

      "And I felt really dumb, and I didn't feel alive at all." No, they come back with, like, this very bizarre euphoric just, like, ex-... Their, their version of it, when they're expressing themselves, is f- seems like they were, like, on mushrooms.

    21. RS

      Yeah.

    22. JR

      It's weird.

    23. RS

      Is, is that something you've tried?

    24. JR

      No. I've done a day.

    25. RS

      I, I've done a day, and I sneak in some espresso if I'm feeling-

    26. JR

      (laughs)

    27. RS

      ... y- you know, deprived.

    28. JR

      I don't think y- I think that's fine because just espresso doesn't, uh... I mean...

    29. RS

      No calories.

    30. JR

      Right, there's no calories. Yeah, um, I should do it. I should probably do, like, a three-day, see what's up.

  7. 19:40 – 22:07

    Dogs, companionship, grief, and why pets matter

    1. RS

      Oh, right. Well, this new neighborhood I moved into in May, there's a park, Altura Park. You wouldn't believe the number of dogs that are being walked around there. There's th-

    2. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RS

      ... these little tiny ones. Y- you know, like, I haven't lived in the city in a long time. I haven't seen tiny dogs, but, man, there are some tiny dogs out there.

    4. JR

      Yeah.

    5. RS

      And, and th-

    6. JR

      Jamie's got a tiny one. He didn't bring him in today, but Carl's a little maniac.

    7. RS

      Yeah.

    8. JR

      He has a little French poodle or French bulldog. He's like that big.

    9. RS

      Yeah, they're cute.

    10. JR

      He's adorable.

    11. RS

      What does he weigh?

    12. NA

      Uh, was 16 pounds now.

    13. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    14. JR

      He's jacked.

    15. RS

      Yeah, he sounds-

    16. JR

      He really is jacked. He's got a lot of muscles.

    17. RS

      (laughs)

    18. JR

      He's super aggressive.

    19. RS

      Yeah.

    20. JR

      Not with people, like, not like real aggressive. Like playful.

    21. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    22. JR

      He just wants to play constantly.

    23. RS

      Yeah.

    24. JR

      So I bring my dog, who's a golden retriever, who's the opposite. He's just everybody's best friend. If he meets you, he's like, "You're my best friend."

    25. RS

      Yeah, right.

    26. JR

      He loves everybody.

    27. RS

      Yeah.

    28. JR

      And Carl just launches himself at him.

    29. RS

      Yeah, the one dog I had, uh, was a miniature dachshund. And that-

    30. JR

      Oh, that was a cute little dog.

  8. 22:07 – 32:23

    Rick’s Alaska survival stories: hypothermia, bears, and northern lights

    1. RS

      Yeah. Yeah, we were talking about Alaska and up in Fairbanks. Uh, yeah, I was the psychiatrist for the county for about a year.

    2. JR

      Boy.

    3. RS

      Yeah. Yeah, it was amazing. Well, it was interesting because I had kind of given up the idea of doing research. And I thought, "I'll just, you know, practice psychiatry." My girlfriend back then wanted to be a wildlife biologist. And we-

    4. JR

      Perfect place for that.

    5. RS

      Yeah, yeah, they've got a great department at the University of Alaska in Fairbanks. Um, yeah, you know, so we spent two months driving up there from Sacramento and just had a great time.

    6. JR

      Wow.

    7. RS

      And, uh, then I started w- working up there for a, a f- it was for about a year. Cold, the cold th- uh, the lowest it got down to was minus 49 one f- one day in, in February.

    8. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    9. RS

      And you're from New Mexico? Well, Los Angeles actually, so-

    10. JR

      Oh, at that time?

    11. RS

      Yeah, yeah.

    12. JR

      Wow.

    13. RS

      Well, it was snowing around Halloween, so I wasn't, you know, dressed for snow. I'd never really lived in snow, so ...

    14. JR

      What was that like, d- going from Los Angeles to minus 39?

    15. RS

      Well, I started to work on enjoying the dark. Uh, like, you know, as a rule, you know, people don't like the dark. But there's forest all around town, and it's, it's dark.

    16. JR

      Uh-huh.

    17. RS

      And especially in the winter, there's 18, 20 hours of pitch black.

    18. JR

      That's so crazy.

    19. RS

      Yeah, so I tried to imagine myself liking the dark.

    20. JR

      (laughs)

    21. RS

      A- and it wasn't all that successful. I, I, I, I lasted about a year.

    22. JR

      I- is there a thing that happens, like, I, I lived in Boston when I was a kid. And, uh, one thing that it really does, um, benefit you with bad weather is that when you have bad winters, you really love those summers.

    23. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    24. JR

      Those summers are so special. When me and my friends would, like, go out on a summer night, it was like we were like, it's like we were so happy. It was warm out. We're outside. We're listening to music, hanging out together.

    25. RS

      Boston, huh?

    26. JR

      Yeah.

    27. RS

      Um, is that because you have family there, friends there?

    28. JR

      Yeah, well, no. My, my family moved there when I was 13.

    29. RS

      Yeah.

    30. JR

      So we moved, uh, we lived in Jamaica Plain for a year, and then we lived in Newton-

  9. 32:23 – 36:25

    Death Valley as a psychedelic landscape and formative early-adult insights

    1. RS

      I used to spend a lot of time in, uh, Death Valley.

    2. JR

      Oh, wow.

    3. RS

      Yeah.

    4. JR

      Driving around in the sand?

    5. RS

      Yeah. A- a- and, and in, you know, the canyons, you know, to the east end, to the west of the valley.

    6. JR

      So I guess that's the benefit of air, is that you can air them down and do stuff with them. But it seems like the negative side of it, of getting a flat and getting stuck in the middle of nowhere because you don't have any air in your tire, that seems crazy.

    7. RS

      Yeah. Well, speaking of-

    8. JR

      So vulnerable.

    9. RS

      Yeah.

    10. JR

      Like, the one thing of your car someone could cho- come by and go tsh, tsh, tsh, stab your tire, and now your car's useless.

    11. RS

      Right. Uh-

    12. JR

      So vulnerable.

    13. RS

      Yeah. Y- yeah. Flat tires. Um, what...

    14. JR

      Yeah.

    15. RS

      Um, so have you spent, you know, time in Death Valley?

    16. JR

      No. No.

    17. RS

      It's a great... Well, if you still en- like, you still like to take psychedelics, huh?

    18. JR

      Uh, who doesn't like to take psychedelics?

    19. RS

      Yeah. Y- the best place or one of the best-

    20. JR

      Death Valley?

    21. RS

      ... places is, is Death Valley.

    22. JR

      That's what I've heard.

    23. RS

      Yeah. Yeah.

    24. JR

      I, I've had friends that have had mushroom experiences out there.

    25. RS

      Yeah. Yeahs, I've had some amazing ex- it's, it's huge, first of all, and it's really old. There's rocks out there that are two billion years old.

    26. JR

      Really?

    27. RS

      A- and you are, you know, tripping for example, and you're, you know, touching these two billion years old r- uh, two billion years old rocks, and you really feel something that you don't feel anywhere else.

    28. JR

      Wow.

    29. RS

      Very slow moving. It's the wind too. There's great wind. I, I learned to watch the wind there. Y- you can see, like, a shrub, like, 100 yards away, and it's, um, and it's moving. And you can follow the wind as it goes up and down the canyon until it reaches you. And so-

    30. JR

      Right. You can see the particles it's carrying and stuff.

  10. 36:25 – 46:12

    Humility, ritualized respect, and performance vs authenticity (dating, Zoom, arranged marriage)

    1. JR

      Because, uh, the way we tr- uh, the way we treated the gym, like, I remember I had this girlfriend in high school, and she wanted to fool around, uh, at the gym. And it was the dojang is what it's called, uh, but I, I used to teach there and-... um, I had keys, so I was there. And she wanted to fool around there, I'm like, "There's no way."

    2. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JR

      You can't, we can't do anything here.

    4. RS

      It's like a church or a temple.

    5. JR

      Yeah.

    6. RS

      Yeah.

    7. JR

      Like, I was 17, 18 years old, however I was. Like, kids are so horny. Like, any time you're alone, you get a chance, and she wants to do it.

    8. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    9. JR

      And I was like, "We can't do it here."

    10. RS

      Right.

    11. JR

      Like, this is not possible.

    12. RS

      It's-

    13. JR

      We can't do it in the locker room.

    14. RS

      Right.

    15. JR

      We can't do it in the premises. Like, this is a church.

    16. RS

      The ground you stand on is holy ground.

    17. JR

      It was to me.

    18. RS

      Yeah.

    19. JR

      'Cause to me, it was like, this, this place is, this is where I w- this is where I'm serious. This is, like, a different place.

    20. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    21. JR

      The rest of the world is the rest of the world. But in this place, I control myself. I control the environment. I, I, I exist by the rules.

    22. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    23. JR

      And there's very strict rules. You bow every ... even if no one was around, I bowed to the flag every time I entered into the dojang.

    24. RS

      Uh, to the flag?

    25. JR

      Always.

    26. RS

      Yeah, what did that repre-

    27. JR

      It was the Korean flag.

    28. RS

      Yeah, yeah.

    29. JR

      Yeah.

    30. RS

      So what did that represent?

  11. 46:12 – 51:05

    Jerusalem’s religious gravity, ancient history, and the ‘Jerusalem complex’

    1. RS

      W- w- why do you think, uh, at least in p- particular, you know, that Jerusalem is just, you know, such a hotbed? It's, it's a point of contact and conflict for all three major religions.

    2. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RS

      Islam, Christianity and-

    4. JR

      Right.

    5. RS

      ... and, uh, uh, I mean, Judaism, all claim y- that small bit of land. I wonder what it is about that, that, that part of the world?

    6. JR

      Well, it's gotta be th- from the Bible, right? I mean, that's the, uh ... The significance of it as holy land, you know? The, the, the concept of holy land is always so, so ... It ... If there's a place where it, it is literally in the Bible that this is the place where Jesus is going to return to-

    7. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    8. JR

      ... well, this is gonna be a place where people do battle over. Like, you, you can't let the enemy control the place where Jesus comes back to. 'Cause what if Jesus comes back and they immediately snuff him out because they're Islamists?

    9. RS

      Right. Oh, um, well, it goes even further back than that. You know, uh, it was the location of the temple, the, the temple of the god of the Hebrews was built in Jerusalem.

    10. JR

      Wow. How-

    11. RS

      The first and the second.

    12. JR

      How much history is there? Like, how far does it go back?

    13. RS

      Well, you know, Judaism began, what, maybe 4,000 years ago, and the first temple was built ... Oh my gosh, I should know this. Um, it stood for 400 years, uh, then it was destroyed. And the second temple lasted around 400 years. It was destroyed in, uh, you know, 70 CE, the second temple. When was the first, you know, temple in existence, Jamie?

    14. JR

      So even if that's, if that's the timeline, so that we're, we're looking at about 4,000 years, right?

    15. RS

      Mm-hmm. Y- you know, like Abraham, th-

    16. JR

      (laughs)

    17. RS

      ... you know, the first of the Hebrews w- w- l- lived around 18 ... 1800 BCE.

    18. JR

      So 2000 BCE, the first known mention of the city. So that's 2000, 2000 before current era in Middle Kingdom Egyptian ex- how do you say that? Excretion? Excretion texts? What does that mean?

    19. RS

      Uh, execration texts?

    20. JR

      Execration.

    21. RS

      Oh, oh. Uh, curses.

    22. JR

      Curses?

    23. RS

      Yeah, yeah.

    24. JR

      Really?

    25. RS

      Yeah. Execrations are curses. Extreme curses.

    26. JR

      Really?

    27. RS

      Yeah. I- if you execrate someone, you are really cursing them.

    28. JR

      Ancient Egyptian hieratic texts listing the enemies of the pharaoh, most often the enemies of Egyptian state or troublesome foreign neighbors. The texts were most often written upon statuettes of bound foreigners. (laughs)

    29. RS

      Yeah, yeah.

    30. JR

      Bulls or what was the other word it said there? It said bulls or ... It's, it's blocked now.

  12. 51:05 – 1:00:53

    Psychedelic messianism, spiritual narcissism, and what DMT entities might be

    1. RS

      Well, I think, you know, one of the problems with the current, you know, psychedelic scene is this messianism.

    2. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RS

      You know, that it's going to heal everything, there'll be world peace, it'll be a utopia.

    4. JR

      There's also, um, I think a prevalence of this, uh, kind of spiritual narcissism that's-

    5. RS

      Oh, good, I'm glad you see that.

    6. JR

      Yeah.

    7. RS

      Yeah, it's important.

    8. JR

      It's a prevalence of it. It seems like there's a lot of people that, um, attach themself to this thing, and then use this to behave in a completely different way. They behave like they're the per- ... instead of a, a person who's experiencing it like everybody else, they're like a leader, right? And I think there's a real danger in that, expressing these thoughts to other people as pure facts.

    9. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    10. JR

      You know, "The way to live your life." Like, listen, you don't know how ... stop, okay? There's ways, there's ways you've learned to live your life better because of that, and you should be just talking about those experiences. But when you start giving people instruction in how to do things, and then, you know, organizing people together, I think that's a symptom of this spiritual narcissism.

    11. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    12. JR

      That people ... if you're attached to this, you're attached to something divine, which we ... I think we would both agree it is, you can imagine that you are divine, or you can project that you are divine.

    13. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    14. JR

      You know? And I think there's a temptation to do that.

    15. RS

      Well, I, I think it strengthens preexisting, y- y- ... you know, for example, personality traits, like you're saying. Like, if you're a n- narcissistic person and you trip, you'll just get more enamored with yourself.

    16. JR

      (laughs)

    17. RS

      And little bit more convinced that what you think is true. And-

    18. JR

      That seems terrible.

    19. RS

      Yeah. Well, it's one of the dark sides of psychedelics.

    20. JR

      Well, that's weird, right? Because w- ... a- as you were saying before, like, there's people that wanna think it's like a cure all. And it's not, necessarily. It's a tool.

    21. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    22. JR

      And if it was a cure all, it would've already cured us. We, we would've been cured like thousands of years ago. We would've ... people would've worked out all this nonsense.

    23. RS

      Mm-hmm. Right, right. I think it just works on what's already in your head. Y- you may not acknowledge it or think about it or re- even remember it, and, you know, psychedelics will shed light on what's already there. But-

    24. JR

      Well, how about the Vikings, right?

    25. RS

      What about the Vikings?

    26. JR

      I mean, they would, they would take mushrooms before they killed people.

    27. RS

      The berserkers?

    28. JR

      Yeah.

    29. RS

      Yeah, the berserkers. They would-

    30. JR

      Well-

  13. 1:00:53 – 1:07:41

    AI deepfakes, Sora video generation, and the collapse of trust in media

    1. RS

      Yeah. So, in what kind of ways has AI impacted you? It- it hasn't impacted-

    2. JR

      It hasn't yet.

    3. RS

      Yeah, it hasn't impacted you.

    4. JR

      Well, it has in... Visually, I've seen a lot of, like, really wild things online.... um, there's a bunch of, um, like there's one that I posted that some guy made. It's, uh, Donald Trump playing Creedence Clearwater R- Revival on guitar.

    5. RS

      Yeah. Yeah.

    6. JR

      Pull it up on my Instagram.

    7. RS

      (laughs)

    8. JR

      You should see this. And, and Kamala Harris is in it, and, and, um, uh, Macron from... Or Justin Trudeau's in it. It, but it's, it's so realistic. I mean, it's obviously not. Like, you look at it, you're like, "I know it's not really them."

    9. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    10. JR

      But it's so close. It's weird.

    11. RS

      Do you like Creedence?

    12. JR

      Love Creedence.

    13. RS

      Yeah. Yeah.

    14. JR

      I love Creedence. And, uh, it's, uh, Fortunate Son, so it's a banger song.

    15. RS

      Yeah, yeah. That's their great song.

    16. NA

      Which one is it?

    17. JR

      It's Donald Trump. You see Donald Trump playing guitar.

    18. NA

      I don't see it.

    19. RS

      I ain't no senator's son.

    20. JR

      Um, it's pretty recent. Scroll down. Um, keep going. There it is.

    21. NA

      Oh, okay.

    22. RS

      (laughs)

    23. JR

      Give me some volume.

    24. RS

      (laughs)

    25. JR

      Lookit, Putin's on the drums. (music plays) Kamala Harris is wearing a witch hat. Look at that guy. (laughs)

    26. RS

      (laughs)

    27. JR

      Come on, man. Give me volume.

    28. RS

      That's good. Yeah. Boris Johnson.

    29. JR

      Oh, we can't? Oh. We get in trouble with, uh, the YouTube police.

    30. RS

      Oh, right. Yeah.

  14. 1:07:41 – 1:12:33

    Neuralink, recording dreams/trips, telepathic society, and a post-capitalist thought experiment

    1. RS

      Yeah. W- well, uh, y- um, uh, can you see like an intersection between AI and psychedelics? Like, you know, could you give-

    2. JR

      Yes.

    3. RS

      ... uh, you know, what ... You know, could you give a robot LSD or, you know, something like it?

    4. JR

      Well, no. What I was gonna say is I think AI can give you some ... And McKenna actually talked about this as well, that he believed that with virtual reality and, uh, computer simulations of trips, it will get to a point of sophistication where you can visually simulate exactly what a psychedelic trip is. You know? And then there becomes this real possibility within our lifetime of recording dreams. Now, if you can record a dream, can you record a psychedelic state?

    5. RS

      Sure.

    6. JR

      Mm-hmm. Right?

    7. RS

      I- well, I mean, why not? Yeah.

    8. JR

      Right, right. If they can ... I mean, I don't know how far away they are. Let's say they're 50 years away from being able to do s- do something like this. But if they can map out all of the synapse in your brain and all of the- the different neural chemistry that's going on, if they can map that out and then attach it to some sort of a ... some ability to visually record what you're experiencing and they can then have something like through a neural implant, like Neuralink or something like that, and then completely put you in the exact state that this person is having when they're on nine grams of mushrooms, that- that totally seems like a ... If we can send video through the sky and it lands on your phone, it looks perfect, I think that's doable.

    9. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    10. JR

      I think that's doable within X amount of years. I mean, I- I- I ... It's not a thing like cloning people through a- a- a printer. Like, that's too far away. But I think the- the idea of recording your thoughts and then figuring out what causes different reactions inside people's mind, how your visual cortex, uh, interplays with all these different chemicals that are going on inside of your brain.

    11. RS

      Yeah, I think it could be a mass telepathic experience, like if everybody was-

    12. JR

      Oh, yeah.

    13. RS

      ... y- sharing the same experience at the same time.

    14. JR

      Yeah.

    15. RS

      Yeah.

    16. JR

      Uh, well, I think that definitely. I think that definitely and definitely the possibility of a completely universal language, especially if we can enhance our brains. So if ... What- what they're talking about with Neuralink is, you know, multiple steps of, uh, implic- of use, right? Multiple steps of, um, the way they're going to have this. At first, they're going to use it for people that are disabled. Like we have the guy in here who was the very first Neuralink patient.

    17. RS

      Oh, very cool.

    18. JR

      It was very cool. He, um, plays video games and he's like ... His- his eyes are like an aim bot. So, wherever he looks at, it shoots, 'cause like he can- he can move his eye i- instead of hand-eye coordination-

    19. RS

      Right.

    20. JR

      ... it's just eye coordination.

    21. RS

      Yeah.

    22. JR

      So, he knows exactly. So, it's like instantaneous visuals on things. So, he's like really good at video games with this. And that's better than not having that. So, he plays better with the Neuralink than a person like myself would with just hand-to-eye coordination.

    23. RS

      With your hand. Yeah, yeah.

    24. JR

      So, you would imagine that if it can do that better, the next thing it's gonna be able to do is restore vision. And if they could restore vision and then they can create artificial eyes, you can have things like night vision. You can have thermal imagery. You're gonna be able to do things with your eyes that a biological eye can't do. And we might get to the point within, you know, our lifetime or our grandchildren's lifetime where people get rid of their eyes really quick 'cause your eyes are bullshit. Like your eyes don't even see through walls. Like what are these stupid fucking biological eyes?

    25. RS

      Yeah, yeah.

    26. JR

      And then the next thing you know, you've got something that enhances your brain and gives you, uh, complete access to the internet instantaneously, just through the mind.

    27. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    28. JR

      Just through this implant and through the mind. And then everybody gets together and says, "Listen, um, I would like to learn Swahili. I'd like to learn Portuguese and Chinese. I don't have the time. No one has the time to learn 190 languages," or whatever there are out there. Why don't we all just create one universal language?

    29. RS

      Uh, would you think people would want that?

    30. JR

      I don't think leaders would want that.

  15. 1:12:33 – 1:43:27

    Biblical literalism-as-method, learning Biblical Hebrew, and Ezekiel as DMT-like vision

    1. JR

      Do you ... Uh, what do you think ... Like when you think of Biblical stories, what do ... I mean, I've- I've- I've spent far too much time speculating about the origins.

    2. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JR

      But I'd like to know, like what do you think that was?

    4. RS

      Well, I think the stories could be seen as if they were real. You know, kind of like the DMT world. At- at a certain point, I had to look at the DMT world as if it were real. Oth- otherwise, I would suggest it was, you know, something else. It was psychoanalytic, psychodynamic stuff. It was Jungian archetypes. It was your brain on drugs. But if I, y- took as an act of faith that it was a real world, uh, I treated it as if it were real. And, y- you know, that's the way I approach the Bible, uh, the Bible stories, uh, as if they were real. Like it ... I- if- if you read it carefully, it's a very coherent, you know, picture of, um, creation, of history, of the relationship between the spiritual and human worlds. Um, and, uh, if you just enter it rather than interpret it as, you know, something else, uh, then, uh, it starts opening up, uh, in- in a way that is quite interesting. L- like, you know, for example, the flood. Or- well, you know, for example, you- you know, the Tower, um, of Babel.

    5. JR

      Yeah.

    6. RS

      Um-You know, like, if you look at, uh, you know, preceding chapters, after the flood, you know, God told man to spread out, you know, to populate the world. Because it was just Noah and his family after the flood, and then they had children and, you know, the, you know, the, you know, you know, the directive was to, you know, was, was to repopulate the Earth.

    7. JR

      Right.

    8. RS

      And instead, you know, they built this tower. Um, you know, so, you know, people kind of wonder, you know, why was the generation of the tower, you know, punished, as it were, by being dispersed and their languages were confused. Um, but, um, y- yeah, you know, so it's a, it, it's a cohe- i- it's a, you know, cohesive whole. You know, the stories, you know, build upon each other, uh, you know, there's history, uh, certain things occurred because of the behavior of certain people, certain ideas, certain practices. Yeah, y- you know, so it isn't as if it were, you know, something else other than what you're reading. Y- uh, and that makes it important to understand the language it's written in, wh- w- which is Hebrew, you know, so if, if you really want to understand at least the Hebrew Bible, what some call the Old Testament, you really need, y- y- um, y- um, to know the Hebrew language, because you can make the translation for yourself.

    9. JR

      Hmm.

    10. RS

      Um, y- you know, they say all translation is interpretation.

    11. JR

      Right.

    12. RS

      Y- y- you know, so if you know the language directly, you can then make your own interpretation.

    13. JR

      Yeah, Ancient Hebrew would be the most fascinating one to read it in.

    14. RS

      It's incredible.

    15. JR

      If you could understand it.

    16. RS

      Yeah. I, I re-

    17. JR

      Do you read it?

    18. RS

      Yeah, I retaught myself Biblical Hebrew in my-

    19. JR

      Wow.

    20. RS

      ... in gr-

    21. JR

      How long did that take?

    22. RS

      Oh, I don't know, 16 years maybe. (laughs)

    23. JR

      (laughs) Oh, oh, it's incredible.

    24. RS

      W- well, you have these big old dictionaries, right?

    25. JR

      Right.

    26. RS

      You have this, these concordances, um-

    27. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    28. RS

      ... yeah, and e- each of the words has a three-letter root.

    29. JR

      Right.

    30. RS

      Yeah, and, uh, you know, just depending on context, they can mean a lot of different things.

Episode duration: 3:11:35

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