Joe Rogan Experience #2245 - Rod Blagojevich

Rod Blagojevich 0:00 (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) How are you, sir?

Rod Blagojevich 0:13 I'm good. How are you?

Joe Rogan 0:13 Very good to meet you, man.

Rod Blagojevich 0:14 Nice to meet you.

Joe Rogan 0:15 I really enjoyed you on Tucker Carlson Show. Shout out to Tucker. Uh, it was a very eye-opening podcast. And, you know, uh, whenever someone is, uh, convicted of ... (deep breath) You know, any, any political figure, any person of power that's, uh, convicted of corruption, you automatically assume that they're guilty. And after listening to you on Tucker's show, I was like, "Oh, Jesus." Like, it was such an eye-opening podcast and such a disappointing one too. It was so disturbing to hear your version of the story, which was so different than the version that was, you know, put out on the media and it was just, "Oh, corrupt politician goes to jail. Oh, he went to jail? He must be guilty."

Rod Blagojevich 0:58 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 0:58 And then you hear your take on it and you're like, "Oh, God." It's very disturbing and, uh, I just wanted to show you this just before we get rolling.

Rod Blagojevich 1:07 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:07 Biden just released a bunch of people, multiple Chinese spies and an individual convicted of possessing child pornography. (laughs)

Rod Blagojevich 1:20 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:22 I think he's, he's released ... H- how many people has he, uh, pardoned to date?

Rod Blagojevich 1:28 I saw a number of 1,500.

Joe Rogan 1:29 He's going ham.

Rod Blagojevich 1:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:31 Everybody can get their ... Sign your checks, send them in, let's go. (laughs)

Rod Blagojevich 1:41 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:41 (sighs)

Rod Blagojevich 1:44 Wow.

Joe Rogan 1:44 Wow. Possession of child pornography-

Rod Blagojevich 1:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:46 ... should be like, you shouldn't be able to pardon for stuff like that. It's like there's certain things, it's like, come on.

Rod Blagojevich 1:53 You know, I spent, uh, almost eight years in prison, for politics not for crimes, and I'm happy to answer any questions you have about any of it 'cause I didn't do it. It was all politics. But the first three years, almost three years, they put me in a higher security prison and I'm in there with, uh, Crips and Bloods and Gangster Disciples and Sinaloa Cartel drug dealers.

Joe Rogan 2:10 Why would they do that? Wh-

Rod Blagojevich 2:11 They were squeezing me and pressuring me 'cause they wanted me to basically say I did something that I didn't do. They wanted me to plead guilty to non-crimes.

Joe Rogan 2:18 So, they wanted to scare you by putting in, you in with dangerous people?

Rod Blagojevich 2:21 Yeah. And, uh, and to really punish me 'cause I fought back in a way that no one really does except for Trump. I mean, I was fighting back when they brought those charges against me everywhere and I was calling them criminals. And they are.

Joe Rogan 2:31 What did they expect you to do? Did they expect you to just take a sentence, a lower sentence?

Rod Blagojevich 2:36 Right.

Joe Rogan 2:36 Confess?

Rod Blagojevich 2:37 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 2:38 What did, what did they offer you?

Rod Blagojevich 2:39 They tried me twice after the first trial, where they failed to convict me on their fake corruption charges. They were floating 18 months. And, uh, you know, s- s- there were a lot of people in my team, like my lawyers who thought that might be the prudent thing to do 'cause you really can't beat these people. The system is rigged. And when they really wanna get you, they'll just keep trying you and they'll get their judge who, to work with them and they'll, they'll ultimately convict you as they did me: by using unlawful standards to criminalize things that are legal in politics and government. So, the prudent thing, the safe thing was to, you know, cut your losses and, you know, take the short period, uh, prison time. But I felt ... You know, I wasn't a businessman. I suppose if I was a businessman facing something like that, you'd make a business decision, you'd cut your losses, you realize they're bleeding you financially, you can't afford lawyers, this is gonna be an endless thing. It was already three years at that point that we had been fighting it. Uh, but I was the governor, twice elected by the people, and you know how I did these votes don't mean a lot to some people, it sounds like a bunch of bullshit to say I swore on the Holy Bible as the governor to preserve and protect the rule of law, the Constitution. I just couldn't do it. And I knew it was all bullshit and it was all corrupt. They knew it was all corrupt. And it was all an effort to try to get me to admit it, and if I admitted it then the truth would never come out. They can never be exposed for what they did. And because I wouldn't do it, and I fought back, because if I'm right, and I know I am, and they were doing to me what they ultimately ended up doing to Trump, weaponizing their un- controlled power and unlimited resources to criminalize political things. Um, if the truth comes out, they're gonna be facing some sort of accountability hopefully one day, and hopefully now with the new administration they'll reform the laws. And, um-

Joe Rogan 4:21 Well, you saw that the head of the FBI just stepped down.

Rod Blagojevich 4:24 Yep. Yep.

Joe Rogan 4:25 And Ash Patel-

Rod Blagojevich 4:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 4:26 ... is gonna come in and he wants to clean house. Let's take it back to the beginning. So, I know they were bugging your phones, but you kind of knew they were bugging your phones, right?

Rod Blagojevich 4:38 You know, when you come out of Chicago politics, which is a politics that probably has a larger proportion of corruption than other-

Joe Rogan 4:44 It's how they got JFK elected.

Rod Blagojevich 4:46 Other places, yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:47 Right?

Rod Blagojevich 4:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:48 The mob was involved in that.

Rod Blagojevich 4:49 Yeah. That, that's well done. The-

Joe Rogan 4:51 Yeah.

Rod Blagojevich 4:51 River Awards made the difference. Mayor Daley, the first Mayor Daley was holding back those, the counting of those votes until he saw what Southern Illinois Republican area came up with, and once those votes were counted then he, um, he let those River Awards come out and Giancana, people like that were really instrumental in electing Kennedy and then when Bobby Kennedy started going after Giancana, they, as the Attorney General, they felt betrayed.

Joe Rogan 5:11 Brett Lazo.

Rod Blagojevich 5:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:13 Yeah.

Rod Blagojevich 5:13 Of course. But, uh-

Joe Rogan 5:15 A deal's a deal, right?

Rod Blagojevich 5:17 I mean apparently-

Joe Rogan 5:18 (laughs)

Rod Blagojevich 5:18 ... the father made the deal, right?

Joe Rogan 5:20 Yeah.

Rod Blagojevich 5:20 Um, but w- with me it was, uh ... I always felt that there was a possibility that not only would they be listening but that somebody would set you up, and through the years in politics, people would. They'd come to you and offer you things that you knew were illegal and, uh, you didn't do it 'cause it was illegal, but also you felt this could be a setup. This could be the FBI trying to entrap you into doing something.

Joe Rogan 5:40 And that's a common thing?

Rod Blagojevich 5:42 Not an uncommon thing.

Joe Rogan 5:43 So, when you f- fir- ... What was the first charge that was brought against you or if you could just bring us back to the moment-

Rod Blagojevich 5:50 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 5:50 ... when you knew they were coming after you?

Rod Blagojevich 5:53 I was elected the first Democratic Governor of Illinois in November 2002 after 26 years of Republican governors.I first learned that they began to look into my administration and people around me in December of 2003. And I had been governor for 10 months and they were already looking. And I knew it, which meant we gotta be super, extra careful, 'cause these people are, uh, scrutinizing us. On the one hand, I felt, "Good, that put- puts pressure on people around me and people who are doing work for me to do the legal things and not cross lines." I never imagined that the FBI and the Department of Justice and these U.S. attorneys who come out of the best schools would be so corrupt and dishonest. I felt like, "Okay, they'll look and see how we do things, and if we make some mistakes along the way, we'll make adjustments." So they chased me for five years, and by the time they taped my phones, it was no surprise. There- there was all kinds of pressure at that time 'cause they'd gotten a guy who was close to me and Obama, a guy by the name of Tony Resco, who they probably convicted him of things that weren't crimes either. They were squeezing him to say things about me and Obama. He wouldn't do it. They put him into solitary confinement for three years-

Joe Rogan 7:03 Oof.

Rod Blagojevich 7:03 ... to get him to- to in- invent crimes against us. He wouldn't do it. This guy's a standup guy. Obama sold him out, and he did more for Obama than he ever did for me. Um, but I knew all of that, and so at the time when they began wiretapping my phones, which was late October 2008, everything I talked about doing with regard to the- the appointment of Obama's successor to the United States Senate, I felt it was very possible they were listening. How could they not? Because they were chasing me, they so much wanted to get me. And, uh, Obama and I both were, um, in their crosshairs in the very beginning, but I think the politics of it changed as his political fortunes improved and he looked like he was gonna be the next president. And these people, these U.S. attorneys get appointed by the president, and these were Bush-appointed, Cheney-appointed prosecutors, and it's very unusual that the previous administration's prosecutors stay in office. When the new president comes in, they leave, as y- you see with Trump and the other party's people come in. But these people stayed in, and when they arrested me, what they wanted me to do was to basically say that I was guilty of trying to sell a Senate seat and I was trying to sell it to another guilty party, who was the guy who started the whole thing by the name of Barack Obama, who wanted to buy that Senate seat. 'Cause that's where the whole thing began, it was Obama on election night. He sent an emissary to me to suggest a political deal 'cause he wanted this woman named Valerie Jarrett to be appointed to his Senate seat. The governor appoints the senator-

Joe Rogan 8:25 Pa- pause for a second and hold that thought.

Rod Blagojevich 8:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 8:27 Jamie, there's feedback. You hear that? No. You hear that vi- that... (imitates feedback whine) It was on the last podcast too. Really? Yeah, it's gone. Oh, okay. Just ended. All right. What was that? My mic cord is touching something. Yep, that's it. Okay, all right, we're back. This episode is brought to you by The Farmer's Dog. Dogs are amazing. They're loyal, they're lovable. Like, just having Marshall around can make my day 10 times better, and I'm sure you love your dog just as much and you want to do your best to help them live longer, healthier, happier lives. And a healthy life for your dog starts with healthy food, just like it does for us. There's a reason having a balanced diet is so important. So how do you know if your dog's food is as healthy and as safe as it can be? Well, Farmer's Dog gives you that peace of mind by making fresh, real food developed by board certified nutritionists to provide all the nutrients your dog needs, and their food is human-grade, which means it's made to the same quality and safety standards as human food. Very few pet foods are made to this strict standard. And let's be clear, human-grade food doesn't mean the food is fancy, it just means it's safe and healthy. It's simple, real food from people who care about what goes into your dog's body. The Farmer's Dog makes it easy to help your dog live a long, healthy life by sending you fresh food that's pre-portioned just for your dog's needs, because every dog is different. And I'm not just talking about breeds. From their size to their personality to their health, every dog is unique. Plus, precise portions can help keep your dog at an ideal weight, which is one of the proven predictors of a long life. Look, no one, dog or human, should be eating highly processed foods for every meal. It doesn't matter how old your dog is, it's always a great time to start investing in their health and happiness. So, try The Farmer's Dog today. You can get 50% off your first

Joe Rogan 10:28 box of fresh, healthy food at thefarmersdog.com/rogan, plus you get free shipping. Just go to thefarmersdog.com/rogan. Tap the banner or visit this episode's page to learn more. Offer applicable for new customers only. ... So Obama was... wh- so how did he try to negotiate? Like, what, when he wanted this person to take his Senate seat, like, what- what- what- what was said? How did it go down? How- how do things like that work?

Rod Blagojevich 10:58 Uh, he used third parties, emissaries between two people.

Joe Rogan 11:02 So that you're not... so he doesn't have to meet with you, so you can say, "Obama asked me." You have other people, so there's plausible deniability.

Rod Blagojevich 11:10 To some extent. That's part of it, of course, but there's other dynamics that also, it's just a little bit easier to kind of test the mood of the other person if you have-

Joe Rogan 11:16 Uh-huh.

Rod Blagojevich 11:16 ... a third party who- who both the people like or respect. In this particular case, it was a labor boss by the name of Tom Balonoff. He came up to me election night in November of 2008. That was the election you voted for Obama, but you and I are both guilty of that.

Joe Rogan 11:31 (laughs)

Rod Blagojevich 11:32 Um, and I was there that night. Chicago, it was magical, you know, f- historic, and it was great i- in the sense that finally America, you know, crossed a significant, uh, barrier, a Black person could be elected president of the United States. Every Black child growing up can now look and say, "One day maybe I can be that." You know, there's the American dream and opportunity. So in that sense, it was a beautiful thing. Um, so this Balonoff guy comes up to me and he says, "Barack called me last night." He said, "I was pumping gas in this gas station at this South Loop area downtown Chicago. Barack called me last night." He said, "It was around..." He even told me the time, like around 6:30 or 7:00 at night. "And he asked me to come to you."... he would like you to appoint Valerie Jarrett as his successor to the Senate. He wanted me to know what you want. I wonder if I can come and see you so we can discuss this." I said, "Sure, call me tomorrow." Now, that's totally legal and appropriate. He's not suggesting anything illegal. Obama just wants to make a political deal. But what happened was they criminalized it against me and, uh, and, yeah-

Joe Rogan 12:27 So they criminalized Barack Obama trying to force his pick for a Senate seat and you accepting it?

Rod Blagojevich 12:35 Obama wasn't trying to force it. He was trying to make a deal to persuade me to do it.

Joe Rogan 12:40 Well, what would you get out of that?

Rod Blagojevich 12:41 Th- That's what we discussed for six weeks and the FBI was talking about that, and we discussed all kinds of crazy ideas, a lot of good ideas. Spent two days talking about the possibility of pro- uh, appointing Oprah Winfrey. Um-

Joe Rogan 12:52 What? (laughs)

Rod Blagojevich 12:53 You might appreciate this. Yeah, I know. She's from Chicago and-

Joe Rogan 12:56 Do you remember when Trump won? They were, they were, s- uh, like, uh, was it NBC or one of these fucking people tweeted out, "This is our n- our president," and it was Oprah?

Rod Blagojevich 13:05 No, I didn't know that. No.

Joe Rogan 13:06 Yeah. See if you can find that.

Rod Blagojevich 13:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:08 One, like, a major network tweeted out, "This is our president."

Rod Blagojevich 13:14 Hmm. Wow.

Joe Rogan 13:16 I was like, uh ... Okay.

Rod Blagojevich 13:20 So we spent six weeks talking about all kinds of ideas.

Joe Rogan 13:22 Okay.

Rod Blagojevich 13:22 'Cause this was, to quote me, "fucking golden." I'm not giving it up for nothing. We got a chance to do something with this. And all of these ideas and thoughts were discussed with my governor's lawyer on all those calls.

Joe Rogan 13:33 Mm-hmm.

Rod Blagojevich 13:33 Largely because I knew these people were chasing me.

Joe Rogan 13:36 Right.

Rod Blagojevich 13:36 And I wanted to be sure whatever decision I made, it was legal. We didn't cross lines or make a mistake, maybe I missed something. And, you know, you, this was unique, and so I explored all kinds of ideas. I even spent one conversation, I think you might appreciate this, they played this at court in my first trial. My wife's sitting there, loving, dutiful, devoted, faithful wife, sitting in the courtroom every single day at both trials, and the media's in there every day. And y- uh, they could do whatever they want, these prosecutors. The judge was their guy. And so they're, uh, you know, they're playing all these tapes out of context. They're not allowing me to play-

Joe Rogan 14:08 (laughs)

Rod Blagojevich 14:09 ... tapes we want to fill up the context. They only played 2% of the tapes. They denied 98% of them. To this day, those tapes are covered up 'cause all kinds of people are on those calls. There wasn't anything illegal about it, but, uh, you know, Rahm Emanuel, uh, Harry Reid at the time was the Democratic leader, um, every possible big time Democrats on those calls with me. But to go back to, um, some of these crazy ideas, you know, I was trying to appoint someone who was Black but not in politics. I was looking for a military hero of some sort. Um, everybody wanted me to make them senator, as you can imagine, in politics. I wanted to think outside the box and we were testing all these ideas, including Oprah. And I'm talking to my lawyer, Quinlan, and I say, "Hey, Quinlan-"

Joe Rogan 14:53 Here it is, NBC, "Nothing but respect for our future president."

Rod Blagojevich 14:58 If that's the case, I'm gonna do what, uh, Ellen DeGeneres did, I'm gonna move to England. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:03 (laughs) I'm not gonna move to England.

Rod Blagojevich 15:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:05 I'm just gonna mock NBC.

Rod Blagojevich 15:07 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:07 So what does it say? "Yesterday, a tweet about the Golden Globes and Oprah Winfrey was sent by a third-party agency for NBC Entertainment in real time during the broadcast. It is in reference to a joke made during the monologue and not meant to be a political statement. We have since removed the tweet." Right. Okay.

Rod Blagojevich 15:23 So anyway, so-

Joe Rogan 15:25 (laughs)

Rod Blagojevich 15:25 ... I'm, I'm at the first trial. They're playing these tapes and they had, they gave you these transpic- transcript books so you can see in writing what you can actually hear when they play the tape.

Joe Rogan 15:33 Mm-hmm.

Rod Blagojevich 15:33 And by then, I'd gotten used to trying to know what was coming so I could brace myself, you know? And, uh, you know, they pick all the unflattering stuff, but none of it's criminal, and if you add it, you put the rest of the cop- calls in there, it fills, it fills out the context.

Joe Rogan 15:46 Of course.

Rod Blagojevich 15:47 So in this one particular call, I asked my lawyer, Quinlan's his name, "Hey, Quinlan, what's the rule again on residency requirements? How old do you, how long do you have to live in Illinois to be a senator?" And he said, uh, "Just one day. And, and y- you gotta be 30 years old and you could be a s- you can be a naturalized citizen or American-born citizen." So I say, 'cause we were f- not finding the, the Black military hero, "Why doesn't somebody go to California, ask Halle Berry if she'd like to be a United States Senator? She comes to Illinois for one day, I'll make her a senator, and maybe I could fuck her." I'm joking around.

Joe Rogan 16:19 Right.

Rod Blagojevich 16:19 Well, they play this, you know, in court.

Joe Rogan 16:21 Oh, boy.

Rod Blagojevich 16:21 And there's my wife sitting right there, you know?

Joe Rogan 16:23 Oh, boy.

Rod Blagojevich 16:24 And I look ahead and I'm looking at the clock and there's, like, 10 minutes to go before noon when the judge is gonna recess for lunch, and I'm thinking, "If I could just get there before they play this tape, I could at least pre- you know, kind of prepare her for what's coming."

Joe Rogan 16:36 Right.

Rod Blagojevich 16:36 And, uh, I made it, and so I tap her on the knee and I kind of showed her the book and I said, "Look, I was just kidding." And her reaction was, "What are you, 16?" (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:46 (laughs) Well, that's the same thing as, like, the "grab them by the pussy" comment. It's like-

Rod Blagojevich 16:51 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 16:51 ... guys talk like that.

Rod Blagojevich 16:53 That's right.

Joe Rogan 16:53 It doesn't mean they mean it. Guys talk like that all the time for fun. It's not, you know, you could say it's misogynist, it's this, it's that. It's f- just shit talking. It's g- what guys do, and they know that the other person doesn't mean it, that's why it's funny to say.

Rod Blagojevich 17:09 Yeah, and let's face it, most of us like that stuff.

Joe Rogan 17:13 Yeah.

Rod Blagojevich 17:13 Right?

Joe Rogan 17:13 We like joking around about stuff like that.

Rod Blagojevich 17:15 No doubt.

Joe Rogan 17:15 It's fun.

Rod Blagojevich 17:16 And the object.

Joe Rogan 17:16 You really fuck her, and everybody would laugh, "Ha." Even if you never, never did anything-

Rod Blagojevich 17:20 Sure.

Joe Rogan 17:20 ... or never even intended to do anything, you'd say something like that-

Rod Blagojevich 17:23 Right.

Joe Rogan 17:23 ... to get a, a rise out of your friends.

Rod Blagojevich 17:25 So years would go by and I'm sitting in prison. I'm making one of my nightly calls home and my wife's on the phone, and, uh, that Billy Bush tape came out. What a slimy thing to do to Trump, right? It comes out and everybody's d- writing him off as a president.

Joe Rogan 17:37 Mm-hmm.

Rod Blagojevich 17:37 He can't win. Pressure by his party to get out of the race. And my wife was, you know, offended by it, and she's telling me, "You have two young daughters. How could you possibly defend this?" And I said, "Let me take you back to a day in court, okay?"

Joe Rogan 17:50 Yeah.

Rod Blagojevich 17:51 "Before you judge somebody else, look at your own husband." And I told her about the Halle Berry thing-

Joe Rogan 17:55 Right.

Rod Blagojevich 17:55 ... and what I said, and I said, "This is, you know," um, "as you explained it." Um, and I think people have to realize that so many of these things that are taken out of context are taken out of context for a reason. It is to mislead the public and prejudice them against things.

Joe Rogan 18:09 And that context aspect of it is very important, because there is such a difference between a statement-... and someone tapping a phone while people are having a private conversation and talking shit.

Rod Blagojevich 18:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 18:22 There's just ... And did they read it or play it when you said that?

Rod Blagojevich 18:25 W- both.

Joe Rogan 18:26 Yeah.

Rod Blagojevich 18:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:28 People talk shit. Like, you can't pretend that that's what they actually mean, you know? It's one thing if you get someone planning a crime, but everyone knows that people talk that way. You just pretend they don't, because they don't in a professional setting.

Rod Blagojevich 18:44 Yes. Look, I spent 2,896 days because of what they did and how they did it.

Joe Rogan 18:50 So if you-

Rod Blagojevich 18:51 In prison.

Joe Rogan 18:51 ... just went along with whatever they asked-

Rod Blagojevich 18:54 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 18:54 ... and didn't ask for any political bartering, you think nothing would have came of this?

Rod Blagojevich 18:58 Oh, no, no, I would have ... Oh, you mean just political barter?

Joe Rogan 19:01 If you did, if, if they came to you and said Obama would like you to put this person in as senator, if you just agreed to it, you think (snaps fingers) none of this would have happened?

Rod Blagojevich 19:10 No, I think they were gonna do whatever they did to get me, no matter what.

Joe Rogan 19:12 Why?

Rod Blagojevich 19:13 B- because they had spent so much time and money, five years.

Joe Rogan 19:16 But why did they do that? Why did they, why did they come after you?

Rod Blagojevich 19:19 I think that, uh, I think part of it has to do with the ... well, a lot of it has to do with the actual US attorney, his name is Patrick Fitzgerald. He and James Comey are real close. It's this sort of FBI, DOJ-type people who've become part of the, today's Department of Justice, and they feel like they're a power center in, of their own right, that they're this new political place in American government. They are so dangerous to our freedoms in this country. I think it was largely that. He had gotten ... He had convicted, uh, the previous governor, Republican Governor Ryan, of crimes that he had committed when he was the secretary of state of Illinois, and so now he could be the first guy in history to get two straight governors.

Joe Rogan 19:59 Oh.

Rod Blagojevich 19:59 And I think it was that, I think he wanted to leverage Obama to keep him in office so he could finish the job and get me after investing five years, and he came up with nothing. That's why they invented the crimes from those conversations. And I, if anybody doubts this, and I fully understand why people would, the question I'd ask people is, "Will you tell me what side is lying, the side that refuses to play 98% of the tapes that they made, or the guy that's saying, 'Play them all, warts and all'?" There's unflattering calls where I say stupid

Rod Blagojevich 20:29 things or, you know, I'm angry or whatever the case may be, or I'm using profanity. They replayed those. But play those tapes. What are you hiding? The side that's hiding is the side that's lying. A- and they're hiding it to this day. They covered up all those tapes. They wouldn't even let me play them in court in the second trial, even though they promised that I would, could play them if I testified at the second trial.

Joe Rogan 20:49 (sighs)

Rod Blagojevich 20:49 And so I got up on the stand, Joe, and the judge had promised ... On the 20th of May, 2011, I thought this was the day I'd be vindicated. He said, "Look, if he agrees to testify, he can play the tapes to corroborate his testimony." 'Cause I was a lawyer and I was also a prosecutor at the state level, Cook County prosecutor, and I know how the system works and I know that if you get up there and you're saying certain things and one side has tapes of you saying something and you're saying stuff but you don't have tapes to corroborate what you're saying, the prosecutor's gonna simply tell the jury in closing argument, "Go back in the jury room and see how many times you hear what he testified to corroborated by those tapes. And if you don't find any tapes, then you know who's lying." I knew this. But when the judge said I can do it on the record, I felt beautiful. "I'll testify and then we'll play the tapes to back up my testimony." (smacks lips) So I get up there and I testify. Then when it's time to play the tapes, the judge won't allow them. It was a setup. And then the prosecutor does, does exactly what I knew they would do if those tapes weren't heard. He says, "Go back into the jury room and see how many times he talked about the, the Madigan deal," 'cause that was the big deal I was about to make before they arrested me. You won't hear a single tape, even though there were 102 conversations on that subject. They were all covered up and the jury didn't know those tapes existed. It's, it was a total fucking frame-up in a rigged criminal justice system, in a court that was rigged. And that's today's America. And why what happened to Trump is so important, they did it to him in those different courts where he, they got the convictions for things that weren't crimes.

Joe Rogan 22:17 Yeah, there's multiple things that have changed our timeline, and one of the big ones is him being elected, because that means they dropped those cases and all that weaponizing of the justice system didn't work. If it did work, that is such an insanely dangerous precedent to set. When you see things like the documents case or the real estate case, which is the most disgusting one-

Rod Blagojevich 22:44 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 22:44 ... pretending that Mar-a-Lago, that somehow or another someone was a victim because he o- overvalued Mar-a-Lago even though he paid all those loans back and the banks profited from it. There was no victim at all, and yet they fine him this fucking insane amount of money and try to say that Mar-a-Lago was worth $18 million.

Rod Blagojevich 23:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 23:04 That is just such a slap in the face of anybody that understands ... first of all, anybody who understands property values in that area. It's preposterous to say that place is only $18 million. It's a fucking enormous property and the most expensive real estate in the United States, or one of the most expensive-

Rod Blagojevich 23:19 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 23:19 ... places for real estate. And there was just so many of these cases over and over and over again that just right in everyone's face and v- very little pushback, no pushback from the media at all. They went along with it-

Rod Blagojevich 23:31 Right.

Joe Rogan 23:31 ... as if these 34 felonies for a bookkeeping error that is essentially a misdemeanor that's passed the statute of limitations and now you're marking it up-

Rod Blagojevich 23:42 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 23:42 ... as a felony, but you can't even identify the felony? The whole thing is madness. And all these news organizations, because they don't like Trump, are going along with this insanely dangerous precedent, because if that goes through, well, what happens if Republicans get into office and you have some new Democrat that you really love, and this Democrat is a real challenge and a threat to the Republican, and they start doing the same fucking shit that you did? Or, is that what you want? You want us to be a banana republic just 'cause you don't like Trump? I mean, it just shows you how many people were willing to sacrifice all of their ethics, all the things that they believe in, what the Bill of Rights stands for, what the Constitution stands for, fuck all that, we don't want this guy to win. Throw it all away. And then you throw everything away. Then we have no freedom of speech, we have no nothing. It's all gone.The whole thing is so ... It's so m- mind-boggling how short-sighted people are in the name of wanting their side to win.

Rod Blagojevich 24:37 We- well said. I don't wanna sound like an egomaniac, but I gotta tell you, they got away with it with me, and they got emboldened then to say, "We can do it to a Democratic governor, the fifth-largest state in America. We can get away with it." Non fucking crimes that we make up shit and call them certain things that are sexy sounding, sale of the senate seat. That eventually was, uh, reversed by the appellate court. They could never uphold that unlawful standard. Three fundraising requests where there was no quid pro quo. I got convicted of that? None of it was personal corruption. Nobody said I even took a penny and they gave me 14 years 'cause I was fighting against them and exposing them. So it started, I really believe with me, and they got away with it with me and some of the same people, Comey, Fitzgerald, those people were doing it to Trump with Russia collusion stuff.

Joe Rogan 25:19 Yeah.

Rod Blagojevich 25:20 And some of the same people then went on and have been doing it as part of a, get this, organized political campaign that came right out of the Oval Office, out of the, the Democratic National Committee, the DNC, into the DOJ. They've corrupted the Department of Justice and the FBI, and they've corrupted the rule of law and the Constitution, and this is no small thing. And just because Trump won, because the American people are beginning to get it, doesn't mean we're safe. The Trump administration, God willing, is gonna do something very serious about this. If there's anything that he- this administration can do to make America great again is to protect our rights and our freedoms and to hold the people that do this accountable and make an example of them. Not to be vengeful, but because it's just, and because it send- sends a message to these unaccountable prosecutors have- who have no check and balance, that if they do this and frame innocent people, they're gonna be treated the same way as a dirty cop who plants a murder weapon to frame an innocent man.

Joe Rogan 26:16 As they should be.

Rod Blagojevich 26:17 Look at this guy, Andrew Weissmann on CNN. He's got a big spot at CNN, the legal expert. You ever see this guy?

Joe Rogan 26:22 No.

Rod Blagojevich 26:22 Anyway, he was a former US attorney and he made his name by destroying Arthur Andersen, a company that had all these people working for him in accounting company, nationwide, one of the biggest ac- accounting firms in America. He used a standard that wasn't lawful to get convictions on them. Eventually, United States Supreme Court took the case and they ruled nine to nothing, unanimous, that the standard that Weissmann used to prosecute An- Arthur Andersen was an unlawful standard. But the damage was done. That company went bankrupt. All those people lost their jobs. And this Andrew Weissmann gets promoted and becomes this legal expert and scholar on CNN. That guy, Fitzgerald, Comey, and people who do this, Jack Smith, Alvin Bragg, Letitia James, they ought to go right to fucking jail.

Joe Rogan 27:09 W- what was, what were they accusing this company of?

Rod Blagojevich 27:12 Obstruction of justice, that they were destroying, uh, records and stuff. Um, but ... And that would've been a crime had they b- had they done it after they'd been subpoenaed, but they weren't subpoenaed. They had a right to do whatever they wanted with their records before anybody compelled them to, to produce them. It was obstruction of justice.

Joe Rogan 27:29 And what was the accusation? Like what were they, uh, trying to get them on?

Rod Blagojevich 27:33 Saying that they were destroying documents and evidence.

Joe Rogan 27:36 About what though?

Rod Blagojevich 27:37 About, uh, that their accounting worked for Enron, which was a real scandal.

Joe Rogan 27:41 Oh. Yeah.

Rod Blagojevich 27:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:43 I saw The Smartest Man in the Room.

Rod Blagojevich 27:45 Yep.

Joe Rogan 27:45 That documentary, like jeez.

Rod Blagojevich 27:47 Now-

Joe Rogan 27:47 Anybody who doesn't believe in conspiracies, watch that.

Rod Blagojevich 27:51 Jeff Skilling was in the prison with me.

Joe Rogan 27:53 Oh, really?

Rod Blagojevich 27:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:54 Wow.

Rod Blagojevich 27:55 Yeah, he was a ... H- he got a big sentence and then eventually they found prosecutorial wrongdoing and he was able to reduce it down from something like 26 years to 14. But he was there with me.

Joe Rogan 28:05 (sighs)

Rod Blagojevich 28:06 A- along with Smelly and Socks and-

Joe Rogan 28:09 (laughs)

Rod Blagojevich 28:09 ... Mr. B and V and G and all kinds of guys.

Joe Rogan 28:12 I bet you met a lot of characters.

Rod Blagojevich 28:13 All kinds. I'm writing a book about it.

Joe Rogan 28:14 Yeah?

Rod Blagojevich 28:14 You know, it, it's a story that starts with one president, ends with another, and there's a governor in prison with Gangster Disciples, Sinaloa cartel drug dealers, pedophiles. That's what I meant to tell you. I was in there with something like 400 pedophiles.

Joe Rogan 28:25 Jesus.

Rod Blagojevich 28:26 Murderers, bank robbers.

Joe Rogan 28:27 What do they do with the pedophiles in jail?

Rod Blagojevich 28:29 They're a protected class in prison because everybody would fuck them up because of the nature of a lot of their crimes. Some of them are worse than others. Some are like this guy that got pardoned by Biden, which is unbelievable. Um, where they're into child pornography, but some a- were far worse than that. They harmed children directly.

Joe Rogan 28:49 So how do they protect these people?

Rod Blagojevich 28:50 You, uh ... It ... You get m- more than canceled if you even say something bad to them. You can't offend them. You can't call them a name.

Joe Rogan 28:59 What?

Rod Blagojevich 29:00 They ... That's their way of policing the other inmates who hate them and resent them.

Joe Rogan 29:05 Really?

Rod Blagojevich 29:05 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 29:06 So they're protected.

Rod Blagojevich 29:07 Yes.

Joe Rogan 29:08 Because the, the peop- the thing that people always loved about pedophiles going to jail-

Rod Blagojevich 29:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:12 ... is like, "Oh, there's gonna be some jail justice."

Rod Blagojevich 29:16 Well, there is, notwithstanding their policy, the BOP's policy. The guy that was, um, Jared, the guy w- subway guy.

Joe Rogan 29:23 Mm-hmm.

Rod Blagojevich 29:25 Um, he ended up going to the same prison I was in after I worked my way out of the, that higher security prison, the one behind the barbed wire fence and got to a camp. Jared k- got to my prison 'cause it's a pedophile ... It's a prison that has a lot of pedophiles. Out o- out of the 950 guys, roughly, that I was in prison with there, there were about 300 to 400 pedophiles. And then there were drug dealers, bank robbers, some guys have committed murder. There were 2% white collar, Skilling one of them, one governor, me, right? Um, but those pedophiles, the sex offenders, you c- you can't call them pedophiles, and the derogatory term-

Joe Rogan 30:00 You're not allowed to call them pedophiles?

Rod Blagojevich 30:02 Can't call them pedophiles and you can't call them chomos. That's the inside prison name for these guys. It's a t-

Joe Rogan 30:08 Chomo?

Rod Blagojevich 30:08 Chomo. So I'm there day two in prison. I got 14 years ahead of me. They gave me a 14-year sentence. I mean, Trump pulled me out of there after eight. And, uh, I'm in there second day. It's ... As you can imagine, I write about this in the book, I mean, it's a hard experience, a long hard journey. It's heartbreaking in so many ways for me and my family and hard. But, uh, y- you know, I'm learning the ropes.... and, you know, I got all my fellow inmates there. And, uh, I'm hearing this phrase, this term, it's called, you know, chumos, fucking chumo. You know, that guy, you know, he's a chumo. They'd say that. And I'd say, "What's that?" And they would ... They told me. And so I was with one of my, uh, the, uh, case manager or somebody. They were giving me more of the information I needed for the stuff I had to learn as a new inmate. And I mentioned, "So who are these choomos?" And she goes ... And she goes, "Huh! You can't say that. It's not chumo it's ..." and she whispered it, "It's chumo. But you can't say that. That's strictly forbidden here. If you say that, you'll go to the SHU." Now, as ... So, "What's that?" I have to ask her. Well, the SHU was a special housing unit, S-H-U. The c- the vernacular was SHU, solitary confinement, and the way they police the inmates and punish them to varying degrees is you get thrown in solitary confinement. So if you just say chumo, that'll land you in solitary confinement. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:30 For how long?

Rod Blagojevich 31:31 Uh, maybe a week. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:34 Geez.

Rod Blagojevich 31:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:35 That is so ... How?

Rod Blagojevich 31:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:37 That's so crazy that they protect pedophiles.

Rod Blagojevich 31:41 Yeah. Now, I, I, I'm, I don't want to sound like I'm a ... too liberal or something, but they have to 'cause if left to their own devices, these guys would get so fucked up by the general population-

Joe Rogan 31:55 Right.

Rod Blagojevich 31:55 ... who are outraged by their crimes and are also outraged by the fact that a lot of 'em, a lot of 'em got special treatment in their sentencing. So you see this guy that Biden just pardoned or gave clemency to, let's hope it was just clemency and not a pardon. My God. But these sex offenders are getting lighter sentences than the drug dealers-

Joe Rogan 32:14 (sniffs)

Rod Blagojevich 32:14 ... or the bank robbers. And if you look at a system of punishment that's supposed to be just and fair and hopefully always tempered with mercy, y- you'd like to think that there's equal, uh, application of the law and that there's some sort of fairness and that when you measure the victims of the certain crimes, that that should be a part of the sentencing. And so drug dealers would argue, a lot of it nonviolent and they're right.

Joe Rogan 32:38 Yeah.

Rod Blagojevich 32:38 Their stuff was nonviolent. These guys really harmed children. The ones that touched children, not the ones who just looked at, at the pornography.

Joe Rogan 32:47 How did they justify you being in this high security prison? Like, why would they put you in with pedophiles and murderers and gangbangers? Why would they do that? Obviously to squeeze you, but how do they ... How do they ... How do they pass that through?

Rod Blagojevich 33:04 You get ... Anybody who gets a sentence of over 10 years has to do time in ... You can't be in a camp. So ... And if any ... And there ... Certain people can't be in camps.

Joe Rogan 33:13 (sniffs)

Rod Blagojevich 33:13 For example, any kind of violent offender cannot be in a camp. Um, pedophiles cannot be in a camp. That's good. Uh, and camps don't have, you know, fences. There's not iron gates that lock you in. I mean, I went from a 50,000 square foot governor's mansion to a six-foot-by-eight-foot prison cell. I mean, it's real prison like in the movies. Those iron gates shut you in, you know, and you're restricted in your movements and you're with some badass guys, you know. I mean, they're interesting guys, and I met a lot of guys I really liked. But, uh, they did it because th- They purposely ga- gave me a sentence above 10 years to force me to go into a shithole prison and to try to not just squeeze me but to punish me, and the punishment was because I had the temerity to fight back. You know, who is this guy? He was only twice elected governor of the fifth-largest state to challenge us, and I fought back, and, uh, you know, frankly, the beauty of it is that had I not fought back the way I did, Trump would've never known me. Uh, he saw me on television fighting back. I mean, I fought back in ways that predated him, the way he does, and it wasn't by design. It was just I felt like, "Jesus, I didn't do anything wrong and they know it. This is politics and, you know, this is wrong, bad for our country. I can't give into this. And by the way, if I'm right, they are criminals. I have to fight back." And so I was on all these TV shows, everything, and Trump saw me in the David Letterman show I think, and, uh ... And by the way, when they do this to you and they arrest you like they did ... They arrested me at six o'clock in the morning in my house, and, uh, it m- ... It was a super sensational press conference. It was international news. Back then in December of 2008, there were two assholes in the w- ... The two biggest assholes in the world were me and Bernie Madoff 'cause they arrested him, like, a day or two after me. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 34:56 (laughs)

Rod Blagojevich 34:56 I remember this.

Joe Rogan 34:58 Wow.

Rod Blagojevich 34:58 And, uh, and it was ... You know, I, I just ... I had to fight back, and so I was. And ... But you can't make a living. You c- ... You have ... They, they threw me out of office, and you learn who your friends are in politics and not a single one of 'em. You know, they all ran for the hills to protect themselves. They all voted to throw you out, and, um ... Because the politics of it was, was bad at that time.

Joe Rogan 35:18 Boy, that's a time where podcasts would've come in handy.

Rod Blagojevich 35:22 Yes.

Joe Rogan 35:23 Imagine you can go on a podcast and just lay out the whole case and exactly what's going on and even play tapes. It would-

Rod Blagojevich 35:29 You can't play tapes. I'll tell you why.

Joe Rogan 35:30 You could never because they're recorded?

Rod Blagojevich 35:32 Because they put a court seal on it. They arrested me.

Joe Rogan 35:35 Oh.

Rod Blagojevich 35:35 They played me saying, "This is fucking golden and I give it up for nothing," but they don't play what comes after it.

Joe Rogan 35:40 Right.

Rod Blagojevich 35:40 Right? If it says, "I want $100 million in a Swiss bank account," which by the way the current governor Pritzker had called me to ask me to make him senator 'cause he inherited a billion dollars, that's the one you'd sell it to.

Joe Rogan 35:51 Right.

Rod Blagojevich 35:51 But if I said that, that would be a crime, but there was none of that. They covered that up. So they get to ... They go to court a couple of days after I'm arrested and they go before their judge and they get a seal order. They put a gag on it so the tapes cannot be played publicly in court and you ... I can't talk about what's on those tapes-

Joe Rogan 36:08 Wow.

Rod Blagojevich 36:08 ... unless it comes from my independent recollection. I can't release 'em. It's a crime.

Joe Rogan 36:13 So you're ... You can't talk about what's on those tapes unless it comes from your own personal recollection?

Rod Blagojevich 36:18 Right.

Joe Rogan 36:18 So you can-

Rod Blagojevich 36:19 Yes.

Joe Rogan 36:19 ... talk about the tapes, you just can't play 'em.

Rod Blagojevich 36:22 Correct.

Joe Rogan 36:22 And you can't quote 'em.

Rod Blagojevich 36:24 I can quote what I remember personally.

Joe Rogan 36:26 Right.

Rod Blagojevich 36:26 And I remember some of it, of course. But-

Joe Rogan 36:28 But at least you could've laid out your version of it so people could hear it.

Rod Blagojevich 36:31 Correct.

Joe Rogan 36:32 ... and it would put pressure on them.

Rod Blagojevich 36:34 And I was doing it, not on podcasts, but I was doing it on the Today Show, Good Morning America-

Joe Rogan 36:38 Mm-hmm.

Rod Blagojevich 36:38 ... CBS Morning, Nightline-

Joe Rogan 36:40 The problem with those shows-

Rod Blagojevich 36:41 Dateline, all the shows.

Joe Rogan 36:42 ... is they're so- it's such a short segment.

Rod Blagojevich 36:44 That's right, exactly.

Joe Rogan 36:45 You don't have enough time to-

Rod Blagojevich 36:46 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 36:46 ... lay out the environment, how it works, what, what really goes on in politics, how, you know, what is, what's normal for how these deals are made.

Rod Blagojevich 36:55 Well said. Yes, exactly right.

Joe Rogan 36:57 So this person that Obama wanted, whatever happened to that person?

Rod Blagojevich 37:01 She became like a top advisor for Obama in the White House. Now there's a school of thought, there's a theory that may- that's plausible. Obama publicly said he did not send this labor guy to me. But Balanoff, the, the emissary, in two trials testified twice under oath that he, that Obama called him. Obama then was interviewed by the FBI the day or two after I was arrested. And if you lie to the FBI, they call them 302s, these interviews, it's a crime. But I've learned that the FBI is really the FBlie. And you sit down, like I did, stupidly, you talk to these people, they say you lied and you say they lied. Who are you gonna believe if you're a jury, right? It's a big mistake to ever trust them, to be honest. So my advice to anybody out there who's getting chased by the FBI, don't talk to 'em. And that ... I, I thought they were the good guys, so I sat down and talked to them. Well, Obama talked to them. And every defendant is entitled to relevant evidence that could help him or her defend themselves against criminal prosecution. But to this day, they would never give us Obama's 302s. So did Obama really send this guy, like that guy testified to? Or did Obama not do it like he publicly said he did? He said he didn't do it. So somebody's lying. Somebody broke the law. Either Balanoff's lying and he perjured himself at two trials, or Obama is lying on those FBI 302s. Or he lied, which is a crime, or he lied to the public, which all too often politicians do all the time, and Obama's one of 'em who does it a lot.

Joe Rogan 38:28 He does it a lot. Um, Balanoff, this guy, what would be his motivation for saying that Obama wanted you to do that?

Rod Blagojevich 38:36 The theory is am- among a lot of political insiders who know how it works that he was an emissary for Rahm Emanuel, who became Obama's Chief of Staff, was a member of Congress. I had a pretty good relationship with him. He's all over the FBI tapes with me.

Joe Rogan 38:50 And so the- Obama never said anything about it-

Rod Blagojevich 38:53 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 38:53 ... but Rahm Emanuel said something to him.

Rod Blagojevich 38:56 Rahm Emanuel asked him to do it and instructed him to tell him that Barack himself had asked him to come.

Joe Rogan 39:02 This is just a theory.

Rod Blagojevich 39:03 A theory. And the theory is plausible in that what would be the motivation for Rahm to do that was that as the new chief of staff with Obama, and in the power game of politics, which is something he knows real well and I know, is people want to be close to the king. And Jarrett- Valerie Jarrett was Michelle Obama's best friend, and she was a threat to the influence of, of Rahm and others. And if you get her kicked upstairs to the US Senate, she won't be in Rahm's way to have more of a voice and more say in Obama ... in the direction of Obama's administration. Now this is a theory.

Joe Rogan 39:40 Mm-hmm.

Rod Blagojevich 39:41 It's a theory.

Joe Rogan 39:42 Interesting theory.

Rod Blagojevich 39:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 39:44 So what's day one like in prison?

Rod Blagojevich 39:46 Mm-hmm. I write about that in detail in my book. It's like chapter three or chapter four. It's like-

Joe Rogan 39:51 Have you published this book yet or are you just writing-

Rod Blagojevich 39:53 No, it's coming out. It's gonna come out, uh, I hope by spring. I hope I get it done. I'm almost done. Um-

Joe Rogan 39:59 You have a publisher and everything?

Rod Blagojevich 40:01 So I d- it's interesting, the politics of the publishing companies. I've pre-sold about over 8,000 already. I haven't even put it out for pre-sale yet. I'm about to do it. Blago something Books. Rod Blago Books or something. We haven't done it yet, but, um, but I've pre-sold some to people, you know, friends and others, about 8,000 of 'em already. So it's helped me be able to like self-publish and create my own little publishing company. And the reason I'm compelled to do it is because I've gone to some of the New York publishing houses and they are so anti-Trump that you- if you say something nice about Trump, and he comes across really well in my book. I was on his show. He was great to me. He's a kind guy. I'll tell you stories about him if you want. He pulled me out of there, huh ... You know, uh, I love Donald Trump for a lot of reasons. Of course because he gave my daughters their father back. So he- I write well about him. He comes across very well. Obama doesn't come across so good. He doesn't come across as evil, but he comes across very selfish, very, you know, calculating politician who missed an opportunity to be a great president and instead divided our country and who's a snake and an ingrate and who sold out his friend Tony Resco who bought him a lot. This guy bought him a lot next to a mansion that he bought after he was elected to the United States Senate. Obama's at that time only had $750,000 they could afford for a mansion. They wanted to buy the adjoining lot in this real upper class neighborhood called Kenwood, High Park neighborhood in Chicago by Obama's library. And they didn't- they couldn't afford the other lot so they- so he went to his friend Resco, Obama did. And Resco's a kindhearted person and he wants to help his friend Obama. So he pays like seven- he pays the list price, like $750,000 for the lot. The Obamas paid less for the lot with the improvement on it, the big mansion. Obama now is running for president. That comes out. He's gotta fix his political problem. He goes to Resco and he says, "I gotta put a fence between the lot and the mansion so I can explain to the media that, uh, it's your lot, not mine." Right? And he prefers ... He asks for a wrought iron fence, not just any old fence. Not a chain link fence. He wants a wrought iron fence 'cause it matches the mansion. And then he hands Resco a bill for $13,000 (laughs) for the wrought, wrought iron fence. And then when Resco suffers for three years in solitary confinement 'cause he won't lie about Obama or me, he sends a letter to the federal sentencing judge saying they're squeezing him to say stuff about both of us. Makes the front page of the Chicago Tribune in August 2008 that he won't do it. They put him in solitary confinement for three years. For three years he saw the sun one hour a day. And then when he got outta there, he does- he tries to do a burpee.And he faints, 'cause he's so skinny and so weak after three years of that. And this fucking Obama did nothing to help him.

Joe Rogan 42:44 Jesus.

Rod Blagojevich 42:45 It's unbelievable. So opposite of the kind of guy Trump is. I mean, I didn't do anything for Trump, but he helped me. He just thought something wrong. And I think he k- I think he kinda liked me on Celebrity Apprentice. He liked the way I was fighting back. I know that. But he fired me on that show and freed me from prison. He's historic. He fired and freed the same guy. Even Lincoln didn't do that.

Joe Rogan 43:03 Day one-

Rod Blagojevich 43:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 43:05 D- do you have hope it's gonna be overturned-

Rod Blagojevich 43:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 43:08 ... in an appeal? Like, what are you thinking when you get in there?

Rod Blagojevich 43:11 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Boy, that's a great question. Look, the hardest period during this whole thing was the months after the conviction to the day that you surrender, 'cause now you know you're going away and you're fearful it's gonna be long. In fact, days m- uh, a couple of months before the sentence came down, I'm jogging, I'm running through the neighborhoods and I see ... That was newspapers back then. It's a newspaper box, front page, a big color picture of me. And I see it and I'm running past it. I saw the headline briefly. I came back running in place and I see it, "30 years to life." The prosecutors are asking for 30 years to life on me.

Joe Rogan 43:44 Life?

Rod Blagojevich 43:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:45 Jesus Christ.

Rod Blagojevich 43:46 I never took a penny. They don't even say I took a penny. It was all talk about politics. So I, you know, that ... I got home faster then. That sort of stuff quickens your pace a little bit, you know?

Joe Rogan 43:56 Yeah.

Rod Blagojevich 43:57 But tho- that period was the hardest. The moment I stepped into prison is ... I write in the, in my book that one advantage of crossing the threshold into prison was that with every ... Now, with every tick of the clock, you're one second closer to this nightmare, this Kafkaesque nightmare finally being over, one second closer to coming home to your daughters and to your wife, even though it might be 14 years and one less second. You know what I mean? But you're, you're ... At least it's starting now.

Joe Rogan 44:24 Yeah.

Rod Blagojevich 44:25 You've hit the bottom and now you're trying to ... You climb it back up, just from a time point of view. But that first day, I'll work backwards. I'll never forget the first night. After that long, long day that I, that I went through, you know, the media was covering me like I was O.J. Simpson. They were at my house at six- 5:30 in the morning when I s- kissed my little girls goodbye, my li- little Annie Bananny was eight years old at the time. She's in her pajamas, so she hugs and squeezes me. And my daughter, Amy, she was a sophomore in high school, she was 15. And we're all in the foyer. It's all dark because you got all these media trucks around your house. We live in a neighborhood, a normal neighborhood, just not gated, and they're all over the place. And so they look into your house, so we had to keep the lights off. Kissed my wife goodbye and my two daughters. The hardest thing I've ever do- did was saying goodbye to them, but you gotta be strong for them and you can't, you can't show those assholes in the media that you're f- dying inside, so you gotta be strong when you step out. Still kinds of film footage of that, when I left. And there's a helicopter that follows me, news helicopter, from my house all the way to O'Hare Airport in Chicago, like I was O.J. Simpson in that white Bronco. I call it the chapter My White Bronco Moment.

Joe Rogan 45:33 (laughs)

Rod Blagojevich 45:33 And, uh, and then when I got on the ... at the airport, there was this big gaggle of media there. And then when I get on the plane, these motherfuckers were (laughs) on the plane. They bought tickets, so I can't even like, you know, get ... give it a second to think about what just happened, me saying goodbye to my family and I'll be gone for, worst case scenario, 14 years. But if I behave myself, it'll be 12 and a half years, right? Good behavior. And then I land in Denver, and they're there. And so I'm trying to leave the plane, they're all waiting there at the gate. And then they ... The people in Denver were really nice, uh, th- er- at, uh, the airline. I think it was United Airlines. And they got me out a side door and they, they had a car waiting, so I was able to leave, and for a moment I thought I was away from the media as I'm about to drive to prison. But no, they caught us. They got o- they caught up with us. And I got there a little bit early, the prison, so I told my lo- one of my lawyers who was driving me, "You know what? We're like a half an hour early. I'm already giving up 14 years, I don't wanna give them 30 minutes more. Let's stop for a cup of coffee or something." So we went to this little restaurant, a little fast food place called Freddy's, in Denver, the Denver area, Littleton, Colorado. And, uh, it was really surreal because, uh, you know, people knew who I was and they were really warm and loving. I'm signing autographs. You'd never know I'm about to go to prison for 14 years. And, and then the time came to, to walk in. And I learned later that Trump was watching this, 'cause it was all live on television. And, and he had tweeted about it that day. I mean, I, I got a million reasons why I love Donald Trump. I was so alone. Everybody of prominence in politics and government and in the media, w- you know, were, you know, w- were calling me all these nasty things. And here's Trump, the only guy with, who had like a f- some authority and had a following, was the only guy saying, like, positive things about me. They were compassionate. They didn't ... He wasn't necessarily saying ... He was saying that I denied it and I wasn't ... you know, I'm entitled to a, you know, presumption of innocence. But there was compassion with Trump, and he tweets that day. You know, I learned later ... I didn't know it then, but I learned when I came home that he tweeted that "I see him walking into prison. He gets 14 years. Murders and rapists get four years. Do you think this is justice? I don't." Just a loyal guy to a guy that was on his show, 'cause I don't really know him that well. But it's just a ... It just, to me, says a lot about who he is as a person. But then I walked in and I get greeted by all these inmates and I was a ... People asked, "Were you afraid?" I wasn't afraid of anything. Uh, you know, my life was so, you know, uh, beaten down by what they did, I was so disillusioned, I was angry, there was bitterness, but I was mostly heartbroken and sad and missing my children f- fearful of my children, my wife. They were left alone. I couldn't protect them. People knew where we lived. The media made sure that everybody saw where we lived, 'cause they were always in front of our house. I was worried about their safety. I knew I had all those years to do. And, um, now I'm in prison and all these guys are watching me coming into their world on live television. So I had two things going for me in terms of h- my, my stock with the fellow inmates. Number one, I was a quasi, you know, sort of a se- I was a celebrity inmate. They just saw me come into their prison. Nobody gets ... walks into a prison on live TV. And the bigger, more part, the more important part, was-I got a f- what they call a 14 piece, that's the vernacular of how inmates talk. "He got a 14 piece," means he didn't snitch on anybody. See, anybody who gets a long sentence means they're getting punished 'cause they wouldn't talk about anybody. The guys who walk in with light sentences become immediately suspect by the inmates, it's the culture there, as snitches and they hate the snitches. Snitches are bitches who get stitches.

Joe Rogan 49:09 (laughs)

Rod Blagojevich 49:09 Right? (laughs) That's what they said.

Joe Rogan 49:10 Sure.

Rod Blagojevich 49:11 So I walked in there and I had immediate street cred with those guys, and they were, they were nice to me. They actually gathered together what little means they had and, and went to the commissary to get me necessities for my first week, toothbrush, toothpaste, uh, shower shoes. Um, just a gen- very nice, kind thing to, you know, me. These were drug dealers and bank robbers and, you know, tough guys, all tatted up, tough guys. G- you know, their gangs would be tatted on their heads and stuff, or on their, you know, biceps or something.

Joe Rogan 49:41 Did you have to join a gang?

Rod Blagojevich 49:42 I write about, I write about how the correctional officers wanted me to actually join the, the white group, the Aryan Brotherhood guys.

Joe Rogan 49:51 The correctional officers wanted-

Rod Blagojevich 49:52 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 49:53 Why did they want you to do it?

Rod Blagojevich 49:54 So I, in this, one of the chapters, the early chapters, it's, uh, I wasn't in prison for 27 hours before I broke my first prison rule, and they called me, "Inmate Blagojevich," you know, the c- "report to the lieutenant's office." And I had to be, they explained to me, this was the f- my first full day there was a ... my second day there, it was after my first full day when I walked in, and I got a chance to see the prison yard. And I walked around the yard with a couple of Black guys, one of, both from Illinois, one from the South Side of Chicago, gangbanger, drug dealer, um, name was Slim, and another guy named Walter Hill from East St. Louis, Illinois, and, uh, I was their governor, and they were really nice to me. And we walked around the track and we were talking about ... and I was interested in the facilities, you know. One of the things I was determined to do in prison was to work out a lot and to read a lot, and eventually, I read the Bible a lot. Like, if you want to talk about that at some point, 'cause that was so meaningful to me. But, uh, they called me in the next day because the word got out that I was walking the track with Black guys, and it was explained to me by the, the authorities there that prison's a very segregated place, that the, that the unwritten policy in order to keep order is that people need to be part of c- their, their own cars. They called it, the euphemism for gangs in prison is cars. What car do you ride with, ride in? And that they thought that for my own safety that, number one, I shouldn't be, you know, walking around with Black guys. I need to be part of a car, and I need to join the white car and go see these two guys, Cole and Sadness. Sand-

Joe Rogan 51:29 Sadness?

Rod Blagojevich 51:30 Sand-ness. His name was-

Joe Rogan 51:32 Okay. (laughs)

Rod Blagojevich 51:32 I thought it was Sadness too. Exactly. 'Cause I'm looking around, "Who's Saddest? Who's Sadness?" I'm looking for Sadness, right? His name was Sand-ness, and Cole was the leader. I think he was from Texas. And, uh, they s- they told me that I should go see them, and so out of respect for the c- the police officers, the correctional officers, I, I said, "Okay, I'll go see them." But I made it clear to them, "Listen, I don't give a fuck." Because they told me, "Look, when you get into a conflict with somebody, and it's inevitable, 'cause you're in prison with a bunch of guys for a long time, there's gonna be all kinds of disputes. You want the window open, the other guy wants it closed. You didn't put the weight back in the weight room like he would have wanted. There's all kinds of shit that's gonna hap- the conflicts that develop between guys living close like that. The way we keep order is we keep the races and the e- and the different ethnic groups separated. They all p- become part of their individual cars. You sit with them in a commissary, I mean, at the cafeteria, they call it the chow hall. You, uh, you work out with them, you walk the track with them, you're polite to the other groups but you don't really get friendly with them, because if you have a conflict with somebody, your car will protect you, especially if it becomes a conflict with somebody from another race or another group of people." In the prison I was in, there were a lot of Black guys, a lot of Latinos, a lot of guys from Mexico, seen a lot with drug cartel people, uh, a lot of G- Native Americans, there were Pacific Islanders, uh, and of course white guys and sex offenders. They were their own group. And so they all pretty much m- m- you know, rode in their own cars, their separate cars. But I told them, "I'm not, uh ... Look, I don't fear anybody. If somebody wants to fucking kill me here in some ways or put, put me out of my r- misery, I'm not gonna be doing some d- you know, kind of thing that, like that. It just, it, you know, it's racist. I'm not doing that. I'm gonna ... Whoever's nice to me, I'm gonna be nice to them, and I'll respect your rules. I won't sit with the Black guys or with any Latino guys, I'll sit with the white guys. Um, but I'm not gonna ... I, uh, unless you're ordering me, t- tell- and telling me I can't walk with those guys or talk to these guys, I'm gonna keep doing it." And they said, "Well, we can't do that 'cause th- it, this is an unwritten way that we operate and keep order in prison." And then they told me something which I respected. They said, "Lookit, y- y- you're not in the real world here anymore. Y- this is not a place where you could be a civil rights advocate, uh, or an activist, a civil right activist. This is prison. Y- you don't have the same rights here that you have out there. We can't order you not to have relationships or con- conversations with people from another race, but we can order you to, you know, to stop doing stuff that could be counterproductive to us keeping safety. So if you're gonna sit with somebody outside your race in the chow hall, that's a direct affront to us, and there are measures that we can take to make sure that you don't do those sorts of things." And I respected the fact that they said it was f- to keep order, and it was the culture, and pretty much everybody in the prison system accepts it anyway. Eventually, I sat with some of the Black guys as time went by, and we actually made a little, an elder Black guy by the name of Mr. B, he was originally from Chicago and from Detroit, he was like the most respected inmate. He got a 25 year sentence. He looked like Morgan Freeman, the actor. He was a lot like him actually, very res- mature, responsible. He was the guy a lot of the guys went to for their legal questions 'cause he knew everything, and a real nice man and a gentle man.And by the time I got there, he had already done like 20 something years. So he was close to going home, and I'd stay up late at night with him talking in that - in the, uh - in the, uh, dormitory portion of the prison where you're - you - where I was first before I got my cell. Um, but it was important to him that before he left, after 20 something years, that he could actually sit at, at the chow hall with a white guy. And he liked me 'cause I was, you know, the - from Chicago and, uh ... So we did that one day and I thought it was get- we- w- you know, it was probably - I was there probably a year and a half by the time we did that. And I sat there and everybody looked at us, you know, we're sitting there, I'm sitting with the Black table. And then this great movement for civil disobedience and civil rights petered out and no one gave a fuck. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:31 Really?

Rod Blagojevich 55:32 Yeah. Yeah, it didn't matter at all.

Joe Rogan 55:34 Wow.

Rod Blagojevich 55:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:35 What - was it because that guy was so respected?

Rod Blagojevich 55:37 Yeah. I think that was a lot of it.

Joe Rogan 55:39 Mm-hmm.

Rod Blagojevich 55:39 And, you know, I - you know, that s- you - not everybody likes you and some people really dislike, and there were guys in prison who really didn't like me. But for the most part, I had a lot of ... You know, I ha- you know, I had low approval ratings after I got arrested and before- and bef- as they were investigating me when I was governor, but I had pretty high approval ratings in prison (laughs) with my fellow inmates. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:58 So, um, how did you get into the Bible? 'Cause that - that was a big part of your conversation with Tucker.

Rod Blagojevich 56:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:04 You know?

Rod Blagojevich 56:06 Well, you know, (sighs) so that- that first night, you know, when they - it's the stark reality really hit me, that first night, when around 10:00 at night I hear this big boom and then you hear the gates sh- shutting, 'cause they were now locking you in. It's all iron and it's loud. Lock. And then the lights go down, then the lights are out. Now suddenly, you're, you're swallowed up in blackness and darkness. And we're locked in, iron bars, you can't get out. And here I am with all these prisoners and inmates, you know, and, uh, I just left my family at 5:30 in the morning, I'm not going home tonight.

Joe Rogan 56:47 (sighs)

Rod Blagojevich 56:47 Or tomorrow night or next week or next month or next year, right? God willing, I win my appeal, but that might be three years. But even that, I was fearful after seeing their criminal justice system and how rigged it was. Deep down, I knew I was a dead man. I knew that from the beginning when they g- when they did what they did. I just felt like I had to fight to be free.

Joe Rogan 57:07 Do you think there's anything you could've done that would've gotten you out of all of this?

Rod Blagojevich 57:11 (smacks lips) I could've pled guilty and got less of a sentence, there's no doubt about that.

Joe Rogan 57:14 But what about if you just - when they came to you, what that senator, if you said, "Sure, we'll hook that up."

Rod Blagojevich 57:20 It ... No, no, no, I d- I don't think that was-

Joe Rogan 57:23 They were still coming for you?

Rod Blagojevich 57:24 No. And they wanted me to - they wanted me to snitch on Obama. And they arrested me at 6:00 in the morning and they - they had to sh- I read about that too. In my house, SWAT teams, 24-member SWAT team around my house. I'm the sitting governor of the fifth-largest state in America. I've got a security- security detail of my own. But if four hours later, I'm in their- while I'm in their custody, it's good cop time and they're not being nice to me. You know, "You're not a bad guy. We heard all these tapes. You're just a product of Chicago politics. We think you can help us. We'd like you to talk about, you know, Obama. We know he wanted to make a deal with you." Stuff like that, they're telling me. It was clear what they wanted to do and I- I said, "Look it, I didn't do anything wrong, and as far as I know, he didn't either. There's really nothing to talk about." And you ... And then they cha- their mood changed and they sent me to another facility and they put me in this little cell and, uh, they had me next to this angry f- guy that was all fucked up on PCP or something, he was like a raging a- or wild-

Joe Rogan 58:20 Performed?

Rod Blagojevich 58:20 ... animal to send me a message, you know? And, um, d- they- he- I think what they- they were never gonna go after Obama, but what they wanted to do was they wanted to go to him and say I was willing to cooperate against Obama and then leverage that and have Obama then that- tell them, "Look, just leave us alone. Let us get this guy. Keep us in office when you s- get sworn in on January 20th. Don't bring in new US attorneys. Don't bring Democratic US attorneys in."

Joe Rogan 58:44 Mm-hmm.

Rod Blagojevich 58:44 "Keep us Bush US attorneys here and, uh, you leave- you stay out of this and we'll leave you alone." That's what I think they did.

Joe Rogan 58:51 So it's a lot of chess.

Rod Blagojevich 58:52 Yes. Yes.

Joe Rogan 58:53 There's a lot of moves-

Rod Blagojevich 58:54 Yes.

Joe Rogan 58:54 ... and countermoves and-

Rod Blagojevich 58:56 Yes.

Joe Rogan 58:56 ... people are used as pawns.

Rod Blagojevich 58:58 Correct. Their political power centers ... Here's the danger to the American people and to our democracy. They're not supposed to be that. They're supposed to do justice. They're supposed to go after real crimes.

Joe Rogan 59:09 They're supposed to represent the people.

Rod Blagojevich 59:10 They're not supposed to be a political power center.

Joe Rogan 59:12 Right.

Rod Blagojevich 59:12 You know, Democrats, Republicans, Independents, Libertarians, yes. House members, Senate members, the executive branch presidents, yes. The Supreme Court and the courts, yes. Checks and balances. The Founding Fathers had the wisdom to create a system like that 'cause they know the corruptibility of man. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, so they divided power. That's the beauty and genius of what they did in this country. They did not foresee coming out of the executive branch would be this tumor, this cancer, that really started picking up steam in the 1920s. Federal law enforcement, and that it would grow, and that the tactics and the methods they used to go after Al Capone or later on, uh, you know, Carlos Ki- Escobar and El Chapo and people like that that they would actually use against governors and presidents. They didn't foresee that. The problem is as a practical matter, because they have such power, the politicians are scared shitless of 'em. They don't wanna stand up to them 'cause they're afraid these people will trump up shit against them and just make shit up or get something they might have- may have done and made it bigger. So it's very hard-

Joe Rogan 1:00:15 So everybody knows how the game is played, so everybody has to play the game.

Rod Blagojevich 1:00:18 Correct. And then when you get ... You're the one on the wrong end of it, all your friends in politics, they run for the hills, they abandon you.

Joe Rogan 1:00:24 Oh.

Rod Blagojevich 1:00:25 And then all of a sudden, they're kissing your ass the day before you're arrested (laughs) and then the next day, they're maligning the shit outta you.

Joe Rogan 1:00:30 Sounds like Hollywood.

Rod Blagojevich 1:00:31 Is that right? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:33 (laughs)

Rod Blagojevich 1:00:33 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:34 Isn't it kind of the same thing? I mean, that's what they do whenever anybody gets in trouble in Hollywood.

Rod Blagojevich 1:00:40 Yeah, you're right.

Joe Rogan 1:00:40 Yeah.

Rod Blagojevich 1:00:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:41 Well, that's just cowards.

Rod Blagojevich 1:00:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:42 There's a lot of- a lot of cowards and a lot of people who have a reason to be cowards, because they're fearful, they're scared.

Rod Blagojevich 1:00:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:47 It's a dangerous system.Especially the justice system. It's-

Rod Blagojevich 1:00:51 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:00:51 ... it seems very dangerous. And- and this is not to malign good people, 'cause there's- there's ... I know people ... I've met people in the FBI. I met great people in the CIA. I know them. They're great people. That's- it's- it's just what you were saying, absolute power corrupts absolutely. And when people get into positions of power and influence, and there's ... this chess game starts getting played, they can make all sorts of rationalizations if there's no checks and balances. This is why there has to be checks and balances-

Rod Blagojevich 1:01:18 That's right.

Joe Rogan 1:01:18 ... and there has to be oversight, to keep people from their own devices, to keep people from their own horrible instincts-

Rod Blagojevich 1:01:24 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:01:24 ... that we have as human beings, especially if you've done some shady shit because other people have done some shady shit. And that's how everybody's sort of worked their way up the ladder. And then all of a sudden you get to a position where like, hey, you're- you're gonna have to do something that you really don't agree with, but this is how the game is played. And then next thing you know ... Rob's in jail.

Rod Blagojevich 1:01:44 Right. It's- Yeah, it's like your chief of staff and your governor's lawyer and all your friends who ... people that worked in- with you and- and got rich on you.

Joe Rogan 1:01:51 Yeah.

Rod Blagojevich 1:01:51 Their choice is, I have to look at my little boy who's three years old and his future, or do I protect ... try to defend my boss?

Joe Rogan 1:01:58 Right, of course.

Rod Blagojevich 1:01:59 And they make the decision, understandably, for their families.

Joe Rogan 1:02:01 Yeah. Well, and I think a lot of people go into ... whether it's politics or law enforcement or into the federal government, there's a lot of people that go into it with very good intentions.

Rod Blagojevich 1:02:11 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:02:11 But then you see over time they get corrupted by the environment that they're in.

Rod Blagojevich 1:02:16 That's right. They become part of a buddy system. It happens with politicians all the time. You get elected back home in Austin, Texas, and then you go to Washington.

Joe Rogan 1:02:22 Mm-hmm.

Rod Blagojevich 1:02:22 You get co-opted by the system 'cause you're young and you don't really know ... or you're new and you don't know. They show you the ropes, and the ropes are controlled by that deep state, that establishment, you know, of- of the long-term members of Congress, uh, the people in the different agencies, the staffers.

Joe Rogan 1:02:38 Mm-hmm.

Rod Blagojevich 1:02:38 And i- it's a whole different world there, and it's basically them against us. There- there is a deep state. In state government, federal government. It's really almost-

Joe Rogan 1:02:47 Even in law enforcement.

Rod Blagojevich 1:02:49 I'm sure.

Joe Rogan 1:02:49 I mean, es- especially corrupt law enforcement. Did you ever see that documentary ... What is it? District 75? Is it pre- Precinct 75?

Rod Blagojevich 1:02:57 I think it's the 5-7.

Joe Rogan 1:02:58 The 5-7. Is that what it is? The 7-5 or the 5-7? Uh, there's a gentleman named Mike Dowd. We had him on the podcast as well. And, you know-

Rod Blagojevich 1:03:07 7-5.

Joe Rogan 1:03:08 7-5. 7-5. On ... first day, he's a cop. He watches the cops kill a guy. And, you know, they- they essentially say to him ... He jumped, right? And like ... and he's like, "Okay, he jumped." It's like one of those situations where like, okay, I guess this is this business that I'm a part of now. I wanted to be a cop, now I'm a cop.

Rod Blagojevich 1:03:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:29 And then he runs with it. Next thing you know, he's selling drugs and kidnapping people (laughs) .

Rod Blagojevich 1:03:34 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:03:34 It's a fucking crazy documentary. He's a fun guy. I mean, it's ... O- obviously did terrible things, went to jail, but the documentary is so fucking crazy.

Rod Blagojevich 1:03:43 What's it called?

Joe Rogan 1:03:44 The 7-5, right? The 5-7?

Rod Blagojevich 1:03:46 7-5.

Joe Rogan 1:03:47 7-5. Jesus Christ.

Rod Blagojevich 1:03:48 7-5, okay.

Joe Rogan 1:03:48 Why can't ... What am I ... You just told me. That's it.

Rod Blagojevich 1:03:50 Oh, there it is.

Joe Rogan 1:03:50 That's the documentary, Michael Dowd.

Rod Blagojevich 1:03:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:53 Uh, it's fantastic. It's a really good documentary. And, you know, you just realize like, Jesus. Um, obviously the, uh, cocaine crisis in Miami is another great example of that, and one of the best documentaries about that is, um, Cocaine Cowboys.

Rod Blagojevich 1:04:11 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:11 Fantastic documentary.

Rod Blagojevich 1:04:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:13 I can't recommend it enough. One graduating class of the police academy in Miami, e- eh, they all either went to jail or were murdered.

Rod Blagojevich 1:04:24 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:24 The entire graduating class.

Rod Blagojevich 1:04:26 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:27 That's how corrupt it was.

Rod Blagojevich 1:04:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:28 It was just off the charts, cocaine and money everywhere, chaos and murder everywhere.

Rod Blagojevich 1:04:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:36 Yeah.

Rod Blagojevich 1:04:36 You see it- here again, the stuff we're talking about. It's so important that this justice system gets reformed. I'm so excited about the fact that Trump ... the people he's picking, Pam Bondi, great person who's got a good record, Pat- Patel. Because if we don't trust the criminal justice system, when you tell me a story about those dirty cops, and I'm sure that's absolutely what they were and that those who prosecuted them were right to do it-

Joe Rogan 1:05:02 Oh, they definitely were. (laughs)

Rod Blagojevich 1:05:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:03 They- they were dirty cops.

Rod Blagojevich 1:05:04 But what if you don't trust-

Joe Rogan 1:05:05 Yeah.

Rod Blagojevich 1:05:05 ... those prosecutors?

Joe Rogan 1:05:06 Right.

Rod Blagojevich 1:05:07 Right?

Joe Rogan 1:05:07 Right.

Rod Blagojevich 1:05:07 Suddenly the whole system breaks down.

Joe Rogan 1:05:08 Right.

Rod Blagojevich 1:05:08 You can't trust anything. There's so much at stake in this. I failed to tell you what that first night was like and that first day.

Joe Rogan 1:05:14 Okay.

Rod Blagojevich 1:05:14 And I just should wrap it up very quickly, but, you know, there I was in this darkness and so all alone and so heartbroken, so fearful and worried about my kids and my wife and what it was like for them, imagining in my mind my wife comforting my daughters as if I had died, 'cause I kinda did. I was gone. They were gonna grow up without their father.

Joe Rogan 1:05:30 Right.

Rod Blagojevich 1:05:30 So all of that's going through my mind. And then I- I reached for the Bible, you know, that my wife gave me to leave f- for prison, take with me to prison. They don't let you bring anything else in, but they'll let you bring the Bible in. I've always had b- a belief in God. I always believed in prayer. I was raised in the Serbian Orthodox Christian Church, but I never read the Bible. I was just so busy trying to get ahead in life. You know, I had to go out and make campaign promises, give speeches, kiss babies, shake hands, raise money. I tried Genesis, I get stuck at Genesis, so-and-so's been getting so-and-so. I'll put this on the side. I can't ... Right. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:06:06 (laughs)

Rod Blagojevich 1:06:06 Now suddenly here I am in this deep fucking dark valley and I'm facing 14 years of this. I'm so alone. And I'm not gonna fuck around with Genesis or Deuteronomy or Leviticus or any of that stuff. I'm going to something right away that might give me some hope. And I went to the 23rd Psalm, "The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. He makes me lie down in green pastures." And then I kept reading the Psalms. And I know the story of David and I associate myself with him. I know I'll get criticized and maligned by people in the media for saying I'm like David. I'm not saying I'm not. I'm not saying I am. I'm simply saying I looked at his example and I got strength from that, 'cause he was being chased by Saul, and he's in the caves for like 11 years they're chasing him. I'm thinking he endured that, maybe there's hope. And I'd read his Psalms, 'cause they're just prayers to God is what they are from him.... and they were helpful to me, so I kept reading and I went to Isaiah and the fiery furnace of affliction and how adversity and hard times is God's way of testing us and can make us stronger and better. We learned through those hard lessons the fiery of ... you know, through the fire of hard times. And, of course, then eventually the Gospels, and the best story of all in my mind as a Christian is the story of Jesus and ... And here he is in the Garden of Gethsemane and he's saying to God, 'cause he's so afraid, 'cause he knows what's coming, what they're gonna do to him, and he says, "Oh, Father, please lift this cup from me." I mean, I- I get choked up just thinking about this. And he says, "But no, God. No, Father. Not my will, your will." And then he steels himself for what he's got to face, takes on all those suffering that he goes through and the humiliation, everything else. So I read it every day for 2,896 days, and I know it in a way I never knew it before. And I love it, and it- it brought me so much closer to God. And there were moments, as crazy as this sounds, and I'm not running for anything so I'm not here to try to, like, win Christian Eva- Christian Evangelical votes or anything, but there were moments years into the process, not those first early years 'cause they were so hard, but after I was there for s- you know, six... year six, year seven, and I'd read the Bible like that every day, and I was really working out and I was reading a lot of other books, and I'd get visits maybe couple times. You know, in the beginning it was, like, two or three times a year, in the beginning, and then as time went by it was hard for our daughters and I would encourage them not to come 'cause they were in school and we were hopeful that we'd get justice in the courts, and only another few more months, the appellate court will come through. "Don't come." So now, suddenly I'm seeing less and less of them. But I'd have moments, and I was lucky 'cause I was in Colorado, which is a beautiful place with great weather and blue skies and snow-capped foothills of the Rockies. That's where the prison was. And I ... And then when it would rain, there'd be rainbows. I believe these are godly things, and I'd sometimes get done with a run or something and I'd walk through, I'd walk that track stretching a little bit and I'd see that beautiful rainbow, and I can almost feel the presence of God. I know it sounds like bullshit for people who don't know that, but when you've been beaten down so much and you're so fucking alone, I f- looked for God and I really believe I found him. And I feel like I'm at a place now where I'm grateful, in a weird way, for that experience. I wish it never happened, and I have bitterness still, and I hate the motherfuckers that did it to me and I know I'm s- not supposed to hate them, supposed to forgive them. I'm not that good a Christian. I hate the motherfuckers. They belong in jail. But I have to say that that experience, reading the Bible that way, maybe it serves a higher purpose. Maybe in some ways, you know, it was w- it- it was good for me.

Joe Rogan 1:09:30 Well, I think you got the most out of that horrific situation in that regard. Right? And sometimes you have to experience horrific tragedy to experience incredible love. That's a weird thing to-

Rod Blagojevich 1:09:44 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:09:44 ... think of, but I think this battle that we have constantly with good and evil, and ... It's- it's a real thing and th- it's ... Sometimes in your darkest, deepest moments is when you ... you recognize a truth. There's something there that we all, uh, every culture believes in a higher power.

Rod Blagojevich 1:10:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:10:06 It's very strange, isn't it?

Rod Blagojevich 1:10:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:10:08 Like almost every culture. Like al- almost every culture has some sort of belief system about a higher power. There's ... It's something ... You could say ... (sighs) You-