Joe Rogan Experience #2255 - Mark Zuckerberg

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast.…

   1. MZMark Zuckerberg0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music) All right, we're up. What's happening? Good to see you.

   3. MZMark Zuckerberg0:14

      You too.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      What's going on?

   5. MZMark Zuckerberg0:17

      You know, chill week.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:18

      Yeah. (laughs)

   7. MZMark Zuckerberg0:19

      (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:19

      Sorta. Um, this, uh, recent announcement that you did about, uh, content moderation, how has that been received?

   9. MZMark Zuckerberg0:28

      Um, probably depends on who you ask.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:31

       Right. (laughs)

   11. MZMark Zuckerberg0:31

       But, but, you know ... But look, I mean, I've been working on this for a long time, so, I mean, you gotta do what you think is, is right. You know, we- we've been on a long, a long journey here.

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:41

       Mm-hmm.

   13. MZMark Zuckerberg0:41

       Right? I mean, it's, um ... And I think at some level, you, you start, you only start one of these companies if you believe in giving people a voice. Right? I mean, I mean, the whole point of social media is basically, you know, giving people the ability to share, uh, what they want.

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:57

       Right.

   15. MZMark Zuckerberg0:58

       And, um, and, you know, it goes back to, you know, our original mission, is just give people the power to share and make the world more open and connected.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:10

       What do you think started the pathway towards increasing censorship? Because clearly we were going in that direction for the last few years. It seemed like, uh, we really found out about it when Elon bought Twitter and we got the Twitter files, and when-

   17. MZMark Zuckerberg1:28

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:28

       ... you came on here, and when you were explaining the relationship with FBI, where they were trying to get you to take down certain things that were true and real, and certain things they tried to get you to limit the exposure to them. So, it's these kind of conversations. Like, when did all that start?

   19. MZMark Zuckerberg1:45

       Yeah, well, well, look, I, I think going back to the beginning, or like I was saying, I think you, you start one of these if you care about, about giving people a voice. You know, I di- ... I wasn't too deep on our content policies for, like, the first 10 years of the company. It was just kinda well-known across the company that, um, we were trying to give people the ability to share as much as possible, and issues would come up, practical issues, right? So, if someone's getting bullied, for example, we'd deal with that, or we'd put in place systems to, to fight bullying. Um ...

   20. JRJoe Rogan2:13

       Right.

   21. MZMark Zuckerberg2:13

       You know, if someone is saying, "Hey," um, you know, someone's pirating copyrighted content on, on the service, it's like, "Okay, we'll build controls to make it so we'll find IP-protected content." But it was really in the last 10 years that people started pushing for, like, ideological-based censorship, and I think it was two main events that really triggered this. In 2016, there was the election of President Trump, um, also coincided with, uh, basically Brexit in the EU and, and sort of the fragmentation of the EU. And then, you know, in 2020, uh, there was COVID, and I, I think that those were basically these two events where, for the first time, um, we just placed ... we just faced this massive, massive institutional pressure to, uh, to basically start censoring content on ideological grounds. And-

   22. JRJoe Rogan3:12

       And when- Uh, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but when-

   23. MZMark Zuckerberg3:14

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan3:14

       ... it first came up in 2016, did it come under the guise of the Russian collusion hoax?

   25. MZMark Zuckerberg3:20

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan3:20

       Was that-

   27. MZMark Zuckerberg3:20

       And this is the thing, I ... At the time, I was really sort of ill-prepared to, to kind of parse what was going on. Right? It's, um, you know, I, I, I think part of my reflection looking back on this is I, I kind of think in 2016, in the aftermath, I gave too much deference to, um, a lot of folks in the media who were basically saying, "Okay, there's no way that this guy could've gotten elected except for misinformation. People can't actually believe this stuff." Right? "It has to be that there's this kind of, like, massive misinformation out there." Um, some of it started with the, the Russia collusion stuff, um, but it kinda morphed into different things over time. And-

   28. JRJoe Rogan4:03

       Well, was, like- It was- He was so ideologically polarizing, right? Like, people-

   29. MZMark Zuckerberg4:07

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan4:07

       ... didn't want to believe that anybody looked at him and said, "This should be our president."
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Yeah. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:00

      regardless of whether or not you believe in the vaccine. Regardless, put that aside. Metabolic health-

   2. MZMark Zuckerberg15:06

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:06

      ... is of the utmost importance in your everyday life, whether there's a pandemic or there's not, and there's a lot of things that you can do that can help you recover from illness. It prevents illnesses. It makes your body more robust and healthy. It strengthens your immune system. And they were suppressing all that information. And that's just crazy. Uh, you can't say you're one of the good guys if you're suppressing information that would help people recover from all kinds of diseases, not just COVID: the flu, common cold, all sorts of different things, high doses of vitamin C, D3 with K2 and magnesium. They were suppressing this stuff because they didn't want people to think that you could get away with not taking a vaccine, which is really crazy when you're talking about something that 99.07% of people survive. This is a crazy overstep, but scared the shit out of a lot of people.

   4. MZMark Zuckerberg16:01

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan16:01

      To red-pilled, as it were, a lot of people, 'cause they realize, like, "Oh, 1984 is like an instruction manual." Like, it's like-

   6. MZMark Zuckerberg16:09

      Yeah, yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan16:09

      ... this is ... It shows you how things can go that way with wrong-speak and with bizarre distortion of facts, and when it comes down to it, in today's day and age, the way people get information is through your platform, through X. This is how people are getting information. They're getting information from YouTube. They're getting information from a, a bunch of different sources now, and you can't censor that if it's real, legitimate information because it's not ideologically convenient for you.

   8. MZMark Zuckerberg16:38

      Yeah. So, I mean, that's basically the journey that I've been on, right? Started off very pro-free s- free speech, free expression. Um, you know, and then over the last 10 years, there have th- been these two big episodes. It was the Trump election and the aftermath, where I feel like in retrospect I deferred too much to the kind of critique of the media on what we should do.

   9. JRJoe Rogan16:58

      Mm-hmm.

   10. MZMark Zuckerberg16:58

       Um, and since then, I think, generally, trust in media has fallen off a cliff, right? So I, I don't think I'm alone in that journey. I think-

   11. JRJoe Rogan17:05

       Yeah, yeah.

   12. MZMark Zuckerberg17:05

       ... you know, that's basically the, the, the experience that, that a lot of people have had is, "Okay, it's ... Th- the stuff that's being written about is not kind of all accurate." Um, and, and even if the facts are right, it's kind of written from a slant a lot of the time.

   13. JRJoe Rogan17:18

       Of course.

   14. MZMark Zuckerberg17:19

       And then, um ... And then there was the government version of it, which was during COVID, which is, okay, like, it's like our government is, is telling us that we need to censor true things. It's like, this is a disaster. And it's, you know, it's not just the US, right? I think, um, you know, a lot of people in the US focus on this as an American phenomenon, but I kind of think that the reaction to COVID probably caused a breakdown in trust in a lot of, um, governments around the world, because I mean, you know, 2024 was, uh, big election year around the world. And, um, you know, there are all these countries, India ... Like s- uh, you know, just, like, a, a ton of countries that had, that had elections, and the incumbents basically lost every single one. Um, so there is some sort of a global phenomenon where the, the, um ... Whether it was because of inflation, because of the, the economic policies to deal with, um ...... with COVID or, or just how, how the governments dealt with COVID. Um, seems to have had this effect that's global, not just the US but, like, a very broad decrease in trust, at least in, in that set of incumbents and maybe in, in sort of these democratic institutions overall. So, I think that what you're saying of, yeah, how do people get their information now? It's by sharing it online on social media, um, I think that that's just increasingly true. And my view at this point is like, all right, like, we started off focused on free expression. We kind of had this pressure tested over the last period. I, I feel like I just have a much greater command now of what I think the policies should be and, like, this is how it's gonna be going forward. And, um, and so I- I'm, I'm at this point, I think, you know, I think a lot of people look at this as like a purely political thing, you know, 'cause they, they kind of look at the timing and they're like, "Hey, well, you're, you're doing this right after the election." It's like, okay, I try not to, like, change our content rules, like, right in the middle of an election either, right?

   15. JRJoe Rogan19:14

       (laughs)

   16. MZMark Zuckerberg19:14

       It's like there's not, like, a great time to do this. It's-

   17. JRJoe Rogan19:16

       Right.

   18. MZMark Zuckerberg19:16

       ... you know. Um-

   19. JRJoe Rogan19:17

       And you want to do it a year later.

   20. MZMark Zuckerberg19:18

       Yeah, it's like there's no good time to do it.

   21. JRJoe Rogan19:20

       Right. (laughs)

   22. MZMark Zuckerberg19:20

       There's... You know, and, and whatever time is, is going on, there's gonna be... You know, so, um, the good thing about doing it after the election is you get to take this kind of cultural pulse as like, okay, where are people right now and, and how are people thinking about it? We try to have policies that reflect, um, you know, mainstream discourse. Uh, but yeah, I mean, I, I don't know. This is something I've been thinking about for a while. I think that this is gonna be pretty durable because at this point, we've just been pressure tested on this stuff for, like, the last eight to 10 years with, like, these huge institutions just pressuring us. And, um, and I, I, I feel like this is kind of the right place to be going forward.

   23. JRJoe Rogan19:58

       What was it like when they were attacking you? Like, what... First of all, what was the premise? Like, what, what would, what were they saying was your offense? Was it that you were allowing information that was not true that was getting out there? I know there was also... They're saying that you guys were allowing hate groups to speak. There was a lot of this.

   24. MZMark Zuckerberg20:17

       Yeah. I mean-

   25. JRJoe Rogan20:18

       Well, w-

   26. MZMark Zuckerberg20:19

       ... the tru- the tough thing with politics is that there's like... Well, w- when you say wh- who, someone's coming after you, are you referring to kind of the government and investigations and all that?

   27. JRJoe Rogan20:28

       Yeah, yeah.

   28. MZMark Zuckerberg20:28

       I mean, so the, the issue is that there's the... There's what specific thing an agency might be looking into you for, and then there's, like, the underlying political motivation, which is like, why do the people who are running this thing hate you? And I think that those can often be two very different things. So, I mean, we had organizations that were looking into us that were, like, not really involved with social media, like, I'm thinking of like the CFPB, like this, um, financial-

   29. JRJoe Rogan20:58

       Oh, yeah.

   30. MZMark Zuckerberg20:58

       I don't even know what it stands for. It's the, it's the financial organization, um, that Elizabeth Warren had set up.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Has that happened before?…

   1. MZMark Zuckerberg30:00

      things that we announced this week, in terms of how we're gonna update the content policies, changing the content filters to have to require higher confidence and precision is actually going to be the thing that reduces the vast majority of the censorship mistakes that we make. Right? The, um, you know, the, the re- removing the fact checkers and replacing them with community notes, I think it's a good step forward.... like, a very small percent of content is fact-checked in, in the first place, so it's, is that gonna make the hugest difference? I'm not sure. Um, I think it'll be a positive step, though. Um, and we, we, like, opened up some content policies, so some stuff that was restricted before, we opened up. Okay, that's good. It'll mean that some set of things that might have been censored before are not. But by far the biggest set of issues we have ... And, and you and I have talked about a bunch of issues like this over the years, is like, it's just, okay, you have some classifier that's, it's trying to find, say, like, drug content. Right? People decide, okay, it's like, the opioid epidemic is a big deal. We need to do a better job of cracking down on drugs and drug sales. Right? I don't, I don't want people dealing drugs on our networks. So we build a bunch of systems that basically go out and try to automate finding people who are, who are dealing with, dealing drugs. And then you basically have this question, which is how precise do you want to set the classifier? So, do you want to make it so that the system needs to be 99% sure that someone is, is dealing drugs before taking them down? Uh, do you want it to be 90% confident? 80% confident? And then those correspond to amounts of, um, you know, I guess the, the statistics term would be recall. What percent of the bad stuff are you finding? So if you require 99% confidence, then maybe you only actually end up taking down 20% of the bad content. Um, whereas if you reduce it and you say, "Okay, we're only gonna require 90% confidence," now maybe you can take down 60% of the bad content. But let's say you say, "No, we really need to find everyone who's doing this bad thing." And it doesn't need to be as, as severe as, as dealing drugs. It could just be, um ... I mean, it could be any, any kind of content of, uh, any kind of category of harmful content. Um, you, you start getting to some of these classifiers might have, you know, 80, 85% precision in order to get 90% of the bad stuff down. But the problem is if you're at, you know, 90% precision, that means one out of ten things that the classifier takes down is not actually problematic. And if you filter, if you, if you kind of multiply that across the billions of people who use our services every day, that is millions and millions of posts that are basically being taken down that are innocent. And, and upon review, we're gonna look at it and be like, "This is ridiculous that this thing got taken down," which, I mean, I think you've had that experience, and we've talked about this for, for a bunch of stuff over time. And, um ... But it really just comes down to this question of where do you want to set the classifiers? So, one of the things that we're gonna do is basically set them to be, um, to be ... require more confidence, which is this trade-off. It's going to mean that we will maybe take down a smaller amount of the harmful content, but it will also mean that we'll dramatically reduce the amount of people who, whose accounts we're taking off, um, for a mistake, which is just a terrible experience, right? It's like, okay, you're, you're going about your day, and then one day, you wake up and you're like, "Oh, my WhatsApp account just got disac- or, like, deactivated," because it's connected to a Facebook account and the Facebook account, um, is, uh, is, is, is ... Or, like, I'm, I'm using it on the same phone as a Facebook account where, uh, like, we made some enforcement mistake and thought you were doing something bad that you weren't, because our classifiers were set to, too low of precision.

   2. JRJoe Rogan33:44

      Has that happened before?

   3. MZMark Zuckerberg33:46

      Oh, yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan33:46

      Where their WhatsApp app got canceled as well?

   5. MZMark Zuckerberg33:48

      Yeah, 'cause I mean, there were, there were a bunch of-

   6. JRJoe Rogan33:51

      So if your Facebook app gets taken down. Like, say, if you have a Facebook and you have, like, a sock puppet account.

   7. MZMark Zuckerberg33:56

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan33:56

      And the sock puppet account, you post offensive memes and you're generally gross.

   9. MZMark Zuckerberg34:00

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan34:01

       If that ... If you get caught for that, does your WhatsApp get killed?

   11. MZMark Zuckerberg34:04

       Not for memes. But, but go back to, like, a very severe thing.

   12. JRJoe Rogan34:08

       Okay.

   13. MZMark Zuckerberg34:08

       Like let's say someone is-

   14. JRJoe Rogan34:10

       Terrorist.

   15. MZMark Zuckerberg34:10

       Um ... Yeah, yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan34:11

       Let's say the most severe.

   17. MZMark Zuckerberg34:12

       Sure, yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan34:12

       Okay.

   19. MZMark Zuckerberg34:12

       Let's say someone is, is like, terrorist content and they're planning some attack.

   20. JRJoe Rogan34:15

       Right.

   21. MZMark Zuckerberg34:16

       Okay, so we take down their account, right? But then let's say that person can just go then sign up with another account. Right, I think, like, you know, regu-

   22. JRJoe Rogan34:24

       How does WhatsApp get connected to that, though?

   23. MZMark Zuckerberg34:26

       Oh, well, if it's ... I mean, we run these different services.

   24. JRJoe Rogan34:29

       Mm-hmm.

   25. MZMark Zuckerberg34:29

       And if they're on the same phone, it's basically ... You know, it's one thing that, you know, it's basically regulators or governments will come to us and say, "Okay, it's ... You're, you're clearly not doing enough if you kick someone off for terrorism and then they can just, like, sign up for another account on the phone."

   26. JRJoe Rogan34:43

       Right.

   27. MZMark Zuckerberg34:43

       Okay, you're also, they also think, "Okay, well, we're not doing enough if we deactivate their Facebook account because they're, like, planning a terrorist attack, but we let them use all our other services."

   28. JRJoe Rogan34:52

       Right.

   29. MZMark Zuckerberg34:53

       Right? So-

   30. JRJoe Rogan34:53

       If you're aware, yeah.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan45:00

      Here's why they're lying about this." And now, that's what you get all day long on X. It's all day long, is like, dissolving illusions.

   2. MZMark Zuckerberg45:08

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan45:08

      And that's a completely new thing that probably led to Trump getting elected.

   4. MZMark Zuckerberg45:15

      Yeah, I mean, the causality there is tricky. But, um, 'cause there's a lot of things. I mean, it's like-

   5. JRJoe Rogan45:18

      Yeah, there's a lot of things.

   6. MZMark Zuckerberg45:19

      I mean, it's, um, I-

   7. JRJoe Rogan45:20

      But without it, he probably doesn't get elected.

   8. MZMark Zuckerberg45:23

      Um... It's, yeah, it's tough to know. I mean, it, I- I do come back to this point that there were- every major incumbent lost their elections around the world this year.

   9. JRJoe Rogan45:33

      But I think that's also because of social media.

   10. MZMark Zuckerberg45:34

       But it might, it might, it might, it might be- it might be because of that revealing-

   11. JRJoe Rogan45:38

       Yeah.

   12. MZMark Zuckerberg45:38

       ... how, how it kind of... Incorrect and, and dishonest, I think, some of these governments were.

   13. JRJoe Rogan45:44

       Yes. Yeah.

   14. MZMark Zuckerberg45:45

       Yeah. So, I think that that's, that's quite possible. And I mean, I, I do think that there is this cycle that goes on where, you know, within a society, it's not just the government that has power. There's, like, certain people who are in these, like, culturally elite positions. And, you know, journalists, um, TV news anchors. Like, who are the people who people broadly trust, right? They're, they're not all in government. They're, like, um, a lot o- a lot of people, um, in other positions. It's like, who are the people that, that, uh, basically people look to? And, um, I think that's basically... It needs to shift for the internet age. And I think a lot of the people who, um, you know, people looked to before, they're kind of realizing, hey, they weren't super honest about a lot of these issues that we, that we face. And I think that that's partially why, you know, social media isn't a monolithic thing. It's not that people trust Facebook or X. They trust the creators and the voices that, that they feel like are being authentic and giving them valuable information on there. So there's, I think, gonna be just this whole new class of creators who basically become the new kind of cultural elites that people look at and are like, "Okay, these are the people who give it to me straight." And I think that that's, that's a thing that is, maybe it's, it's possible because of social media. Um, I, I think it's also just the internet more broadly. I mean, I think podcasting is obviously a huge and important part of that, too. Um, I mean, I, I don't know to what extent you feel like you kind of got to be large, uh, uh, like, because of social media or just it's- or just the podcasting platforms that you used. But, um, but I think that this is, like, a very big sea change in terms of, like, who are the voices that matter? And, you know, what we do is we, we try to build a platform that gives people a voice. But I think that there's this wholesale generational shift in who are the people who are being listened to. And I think that that's, like, a very fascinating thing that is going on, because I, I, I think that that's, like, what is- what's going on here. It's not- it's- it's not just the government, um, and people saying, "Hey, we want, like, a very big change here." I think it's just, like, a wholesale shift in saying, "We just want different people who we actually trust."

   15. JRJoe Rogan47:57

       Right.

   16. MZMark Zuckerberg47:57

       Um, who, who are actually gonna, like, tell us the truth, and like, and not give us, like, the bullshit opinions that you're supposed to say, but like, the type of stuff that I would actually- Like, when I'm sitting with my- in my living room with my friends, like, the stuff that we know is true.

   17. JRJoe Rogan48:11

       Right.

   18. MZMark Zuckerberg48:11

       Like, who are the people who kind of have the courage to actually just say that stuff? Um, I don't know. I think that that whole, like, cultural elite class needs to get repopulated with people who people actually trust.

   19. JRJoe Rogan48:21

       Yeah. Um, the problem is, these people that are starting these jobs, they're coming out of universities, and- and the universities are indoctrinated into these ideas as well. It's- it's very difficult to be a person who stands outside of that and takes unpopular positions. You get socially ostracized, and people are very- they're very hesitant to do that. And they would rather just keep their mouth shut and talk about it in quiet conversation. And that's what we experienced, which is another...... another argument for anonymous accounts. I think you should have anonymous accounts. That's, I think you should be able, like if there's something like COVID mandates or some things that you're dealing with, and you don't want to get fired because of it, you should be able to talk about it.

   20. MZMark Zuckerberg49:03

       Mm-hmm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan49:03

       And you should be able to post facts and information and what you've learned. And, uh, you know, a p- anecdotal experiences of people in your family that had ba- vaccine side effects, and not worry about losing your job, which people were worried about, which is so crazy. And, you know, and you're seeing, uh, a lot of the people that used to be in mainstream media got fired, and now they're trying to do the sort of podcast thing.

   22. MZMark Zuckerberg49:28

       Hmm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan49:28

       But they're trying to do it like a mainstream media person-

   24. MZMark Zuckerberg49:31

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan49:31

       ... so they're like-

   26. MZMark Zuckerberg49:32

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan49:32

       ... gaslighting-

   28. MZMark Zuckerberg49:33

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan49:33

       ... during podcasts and people are like, "Hey, fuck face." Like, (laughs) "This, you can't do that here, it doesn't work." You know?

   30. MZMark Zuckerberg49:39

       Yeah, it's a, well, it's a new medium.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:13:09

   Oh, yeah. …

   1. MZMark Zuckerberg1:00:00

      to like, you know, they're just trying to convince the board to like let them have their job and pay them more. It's like, all right, the board, uh, doesn't pay me except for security. And, um, and I- I'm not worried about losing my job 'cause I control the majority of the voting in- in the company. So, I actually get to use our board to like have the smartest people who I can get to have around me help work on these problems. So, it's like, all right, who are the people I want? Like, I- I just want like the best entrepreneurs and people who have created different things. And like, I mean, Dana is like this guy who, I mean, he basically took the sport from being this like... I think it was viewed as like this pretty marginal thing when he got started, right?

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:36

      Oh, yeah.

   3. MZMark Zuckerberg1:00:36

      I mean, John McCain was trying to outlaw it, and-

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:39

      Yeah.

   5. MZMark Zuckerberg1:00:39

      ... um, and, you know, now it's like, and I think it and F1 are the two fastest growing sports in the world. It's got hundreds of millions of people viewing it. It's like, I mean, what Dana's done with the UFC is like one of the most legendary business stories. And, um-... and the brand is beloved. And, and I think he's just, um ... So he's like a world-class entrepreneur, and he's just like a, he's got a strong backbone. And I think part of what the conversation that I had with him around joining our board was, "Okay, like, we have a lot of governments and folks around the world putting a lot of pressure on our company. And, like, we need some, like, strong people who are gonna basically, you know, help, help advise us on how to handle some of these situations." And, um, and so, yeah. That's, uh ... But, but yeah. I mean, this is ... Running this company is not for the faint of heart. I mean, you definitely, there's definitely a lot of pressure from, from, like, all these different governments. And, and then, then it's like, "Okay, I could spend all my time doing that, but I'm not even a politician."

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:01:38

      Right. (laughs)

   7. MZMark Zuckerberg1:01:38

      Like, I wanna, I just wanna spend my time building things, right?

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:01:40

      Right.

   9. MZMark Zuckerberg1:01:40

      So, so it's, um ... So yeah. I, I think Dana's gonna be great. He's-

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:01:44

       He's the best.

   11. MZMark Zuckerberg1:01:44

       ... a great entrepreneur.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:01:46

       I agree with everything you said about him. Without him, none of the UFC would've ever taken place the way it did. I mean, you needed the Fertitta brothers, they had to come in with all the money and the vision. And it's really funny because Eddie Bravo and I, you know, we've been fans for so long. Eddie Bravo and I went to a live event in the '90s. I was working for the UFC as a backstage interviewer, and he went there with Rikki Rockett. You know Rikki Rockett-

   13. MZMark Zuckerberg1:02:08

       No.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:02:08

       ... from Poison?

   15. MZMark Zuckerberg1:02:09

       No.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:02:09

       He's a fucking black belt-

   17. MZMark Zuckerberg1:02:10

       Huh.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:02:10

       ... under the Machados.

   19. MZMark Zuckerberg1:02:11

       Huh.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:02:12

       He's legit. Super legit. Really nice guy, too. Anyway, so Rikki Rockett and him were at the, uh, UFC, and we were talking about it in the '90s. We're like, "You know what this sport needs?" Because we were in love with it. We were like, "This s-" But we were martial artists. We were like, "The sport needs some billionaires who just throw a ton of money at it, and just get it huge." And then the Fertitta brothers come along-

   21. MZMark Zuckerberg1:02:34

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:02:35

       ... billionaires with a ton of money, who are f- huge fans of the sport.

   23. MZMark Zuckerberg1:02:39

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:02:39

       Just love the sport. You know, were hiring people like Frank Shamrock to come in and train them and work out. They were taking jujitsu with John Lewis, and they were really getting into it. And so then they buy the UFC for, like, $2 million, which is probably the greatest purchase ever. Except they were 40-plus million dollars in the hole-

   25. MZMark Zuckerberg1:02:58

       Mm-hmm.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:02:58

       ... when they fi- financed The Ultimate Fighter. And then, that was 2005, and then this one fight takes place with Stephan Welter and Forrest Griffin on television. It's so wild and so crazy that millions of people start tuning in. (snaps fingers) The sport's born. Then you have Chuck Liddell, who was the champion at the time, who was the most fan-friendly champion you could ever have, just a fucking berserker, with ... Just psychopath with a fucking head tattoo and a Mohawk, crushing people. In his prime. He was the perfect poster guy for the UFC, because he was just smashing people and then throwing his arms back like, "Raah!" in a cage. It was nuts. I'm sure you've seen a lot of Chuck Liddell fights, right?

   27. MZMark Zuckerberg1:03:39

       Yeah, yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:03:40

       It was, it was just, the, the whole thing took off. But without Dana, it would've never taken place. The guy's tireless. That man, he, I could call him up, I'll call him up at, like, 2:00 in the morning sometime. Like, there's some fight going on, and I'll say, "Hey, this is going on next weekend. I'm so fucking pumped." And he, we'll, we'll talk for hours, for hours. He just wants to talk about fights. He's, like, so locked in.

   29. MZMark Zuckerberg1:04:01

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:04:01

       Like, all the time. You know? And he's s- he's just, like, so driven, you know? So ... And now that he's healthy, like, oh my God. He's got ... Like, what Gary Breck has done for him is incredible. He lost all this weight, got super thin, real fit, super healthy.

Episode duration: 2:50:35