Joe Rogan Experience #2259 - Thomas Campbell

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast,…

   1. TCThomas Campbell0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music plays) Mr. Campbell, how are you, sir?

   3. TCThomas Campbell0:14

      I'm just fine, Joe.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      (laughs)

   5. TCThomas Campbell0:16

      How are you today?

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      I'm great. It's very nice to meet you.

   7. TCThomas Campbell0:19

      Yeah. Well, it's great meeting you. You know, I, I've been getting email over the last five years that says, "Hey, Tom, you need to be on the Joe Rogan show. Tom, why haven't you been on the Joe Rogan show?" And I get that. And I say, "Hey, guys, you just don't walk into the Joe Rogan show and say, 'Hey, here I am, I wanna talk to Joe.' You guys are gonna have to write Joe and see if you can't, uh, get him to invite me." Well, something happened. Uh, either one of those got to you or you just found out about it, uh, on your own. But I'm glad to be here.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:53

      I'm glad you're here too. Uh, I pretty much found it organically. I think someone suggested it. I think people have suggested it over the years, your books. And then, uh, I started reading one, and I got very interested in it. I was like, "Wow, this is pretty crazy." Like, well, let's, let's just get people to the beginning of, uh, My Big TOE.

   9. TCThomas Campbell1:11

      Okay.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:11

       How did, uh, how did, how did you first begin with the research?

   11. TCThomas Campbell1:17

       Well, actually, it all started while I was, uh, in graduate school working on my PhD. And I was, uh, you know, I'd passed all my, uh, tests and everything, so I was doing research. And the research I did was experimental, experimental nuclear, but it was low energy nuclear. And we had this big, like four or five story tall Van de Graaff generator that, uh, produced the high speed particles. You know, now that's different from the high energy particle, you know, which is hugely expensive, and you wait in line for long times to get on one of those accelerators. But this was owned by the university. And, uh, when that machine was working, you took data, and if you were awake for three days in a row taking data, well, that was just one of the prices you paid. Because if you stopped, "Oh, I gotta go to bed," uh, there's a good chance that the machine would break and it wouldn't be working, uh, when you got back. So if it was working, you stayed with it. And I saw this ad on a door that said, "Learn how to meditate." And it had a bullet point, bullet point, and then one of them jumped out at me and said, "You can get by with less sleep."

   12. JRJoe Rogan2:26

       (laughs)

   13. TCThomas Campbell2:27

       I said, I, I said, "I need that." You know? So I went and, uh, took my banana and paid $25, special student price, and learned how to meditate. And it turned out it was a natural for me. Very first time I tried, I thought I had been sitting there for maybe 10, 15 minutes, got up when somebody tapped me and said, "It's time to go." And I thought, "I only just started." And it turned out I'd been there like an hour and a half. And it's like, "Oh, I just lost part of my life." You know?

   14. JRJoe Rogan3:01

       (laughs)

   15. TCThomas Campbell3:02

       That's, this is amazing. And from then on, every time I meditated, it was sort of like that. You know, I w- I would get deep in it instantly and have a lot of interesting things going on. And one day, I was sitting there in a meditation, and I started thinking about the software I was writing. And back in those days, now, you know, those days were in like the middle to late '60s.

   16. JRJoe Rogan3:27

       Mm-hmm.

   17. TCThomas Campbell3:27

       You know, in those days, the computer was one computer for a whole university, and it took up probably (laughs) you know, 10,000 square feet, and it was probably about 100th as powerful as the one that's in your cell phone. And there were no debug programs. There was nothing. You put in your run, and they'd send it back with a message that says, "It bombed." That's all the output you got, you know. Maybe you get part of a printout if it got to some of your print statements. So, that was back in the old days when working with a computer was a lot more problematic than it is then. So I was just thinking about it. I had had some things bomb and didn't know why, and I was searching through my card deck, you know, if you can think back that far when computers were fed by punch cards.

   18. JRJoe Rogan4:16

       Mm-hmm.

   19. TCThomas Campbell4:17

       And it was really hard to debug, because, you know, some of the problems weren't even real problems with your code, but the hole was a little off center.

   20. JRJoe Rogan4:26

       Mm-hmm.

   21. TCThomas Campbell4:26

       The c- you know, the card punches were all mechanical things, and they wore out and, you know, they had cams and gears and stuff, and they could punch off, a little off center and the machine would throw it out. And all you'd get is a message that says, "Your job didn't run." You know, it bombed. So I started thinking about it, and when I did, I saw, in my mind, I saw this roll, just like a, like it was coming off a, a roll, and there was my programs coming down there. And then I saw one that was red. Most of them were black and white, like you'd expect. It's like reading it, looking at a printout. And it would go through my card deck and I'd see one with red, and I'd stop it, and I'd look at it and noted it, and then I'd find the next one. I found like three or four of them. And then w- next time I got back in the lab, I looked at those cards and I found errors on them. And I said, "Holy shit. What's going on?" Now, I'm a young, 26-year-old physicist, and in my mind, reality is, is cre... you know, reality can be defined by, as an, in an operational state. If you can operate on it, if you can do something with it, if you can interact with it, then it's real. If you can't, it's not. And that's, of course, a materialist viewpoint, that material stuff is real. Stuff that's not material is either not real or irrelevant because you can't interact with it. So, what's the point? So when I got that, that startled me and I started to play with it more, and I found some errors that indeed were card punch errors.And I thought, "That's not even errors in code. How do I know that that card has a punch error?" Because it's very hard to tell. When you look at it, they all look fine. You can't tell something that's a 10th of a millimeter, you know, out of line. But I realized, "Geez, there's a whole nother part of reality that has to do with consciousness that I don't know anything about." I'm a physicist. Physicists model reality, that's what they do. And here I was, right in my face, there's another part to reality that's consciousness-centered. So, that's really where it all started. And then some years later, I left graduate school, I take a job. My boss tosses me a book called Journeys Out of the Body by Bob Monroe. He said, "Hey, we found the..." You know, "read," First he said, "Read the book. Tell me what you think." So I read the book and I said, "Eh, is the guy making it up in order to sell books?"

   22. JRJoe Rogan7:05

       (laughs)

   23. TCThomas Campbell7:05

       "Or is it real? If it's real, wow." Because I'd had this other experience and I knew things of the mind could be, you know, were real.

   24. JRJoe Rogan7:13

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   25. TCThomas Campbell8:08

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan8:09

       So, you're meditating, and in meditation, you saw errors in the code-

   27. TCThomas Campbell8:16

       Yes.

   28. JRJoe Rogan8:16

       ... that you couldn't see physically with your eyes.

   29. TCThomas Campbell8:19

       Right.

   30. JRJoe Rogan8:20

       And th- you had been working on this for how long at this point?
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   So did Bob... So…

   1. TCThomas Campbell15:00

      was, in his mind, some scientists would come and study consciousness because Bob wanted some science to explain to him, you know, what this was and how it was working. He knew there was some mechanism involved. It wasn't just random stuff going on, some mechanism for some purpose, and he wanted to find out why. He didn't like being the, uh, the weird guy, the crazy guy who had these weird things. He wanted it to be science. He wanted to understand it. So I was out there, and, uh, he looked at the whole group. I was there with about, I don't know, 12 people or so, and he looked around and says, "You guys are all technical. You're all scientists and engineers. I've got this lab, anyone want to work with me?" My hand shot up in the air right away and, uh, somebody else that was there too, Dennis Mennerick, his hand shot up too. Both of us had just gotten out of school, and you know, that's what you do when somebody asks you a question (laughs) your hand goes up, you know. So there I was, you know, a student still sticking my hand up in the air and, and, uh, he said, "Okay," you know, "a couple weeks from now, you know, come out to the lab," and so on. So that's when it got started.

   2. JRJoe Rogan16:10

      So did Bob... So Bob's initial experience was completely organic, right? He was just taking a nap.

   3. TCThomas Campbell16:16

      He di-

   4. JRJoe Rogan16:16

      It wasn't something he was searching for.

   5. TCThomas Campbell16:18

      No. Just happened to him.

   6. JRJoe Rogan16:19

      And then di- did he develop a protocol to get back to that state? Did he try different methods?

   7. TCThomas Campbell16:25

      He did. He played with it, and I don't know that he tried many different methods. He very quickly came to the, the metaphor of, "I just roll out."

   8. JRJoe Rogan16:36

      Roll out.

   9. TCThomas Campbell16:36

      Roll out. He would be lying there in his body and he would feel a pulsation state, and he measured it as best he could, you know, and he said it was around four hertz, four, four beats a second, and he'd feel this as he'd feel his body pulsating, he'd feel his mind, you know, kind of pulsating. And when he got that pulsation state, he would just roll out and he'd find himself out of body. And he wrote that in his books, and now there's like, you know, half a million people lying in their beds, you know, going like this, trying to roll out. But that was Bob's metaphor-

   10. JRJoe Rogan17:16

       Mm-hmm.

   11. TCThomas Campbell17:16

       ... for his process.

   12. JRJoe Rogan17:17

       Right.

   13. TCThomas Campbell17:17

       And there's all sorts of processes, but all these pros- processes are just nothing but tools. There isn't any process. Everything that's going on is going on in here. It doesn't have anything to do with whether you roll out or climb up a rope or do anything else. It's, it- that's- that's a tool that you use to try to get your mind in the place it needs to be. It's not really a tool that is fundamental or that works.

   14. JRJoe Rogan17:46

       What would you describe it as? Like, what are you trying to access? Like when, when you're doing this and when you're trying to achieve this state, how- con- consciously, what are you thinking?

   15. TCThomas Campbell17:57

       What you're trying to, to, um, access is what Bob called, you are asleep, but wide awake. You know, asleep and awake at the same time. So your body goes to sleep, but your mind remains awake, and you are no longer...... co-located with your body. You're somewhere else. So that's the state.

   16. JRJoe Rogan18:22

       Whatever you is.

   17. TCThomas Campbell18:23

       Whatever you is, right. Now-

   18. JRJoe Rogan18:26

       Yeah.

   19. TCThomas Campbell18:26

       Now he coined the word out of body. Before that it was called astral projection and a couple of other terms, but he coined the word out of body, and that's unfortunate because it makes people think that you are somehow inside your body, you know, the soul or the, the... there's lots of different names for it, but... And that somehow comes out of your body and then goes experience. But that's not the process at all. That's not what's going on. But he-

   20. JRJoe Rogan18:52

       What is the process?

   21. TCThomas Campbell18:54

       The process is entirely consciousness, and what happens is you just shift your mind to a different data stream. In other words, our reality... Well, maybe I gotta start in the beginning. Um, go right to the bottom line and nobody will understand it and they'll think it's a little weird, but we can backfill later.

   22. JRJoe Rogan19:21

       Sure.

   23. TCThomas Campbell19:21

       And that is that we live in a virtual reality. This physical reality is computed. Now, it's been computed by consciousness. Consciousness is individual in us, but it's also... there's a system of consciousness, and we're just a piece of that system. Okay? So think of what that means. If virtual reality has some very fundamental attributes. One, there's a computer. Two, there's a player. Three, the computer computes some virtual space that allows the players to see what's going on and who's interacting with who. So it... The, the virtual reality actually doesn't exist. It's just computer generated eye candy for the players so that the players know where everybody is on the field and, and what they're doing. So here you are, and you are not a human. That's an avatar. You are a piece of consciousness. You're a piece of consciousness that's a chip off the old block. You're a subset. Um, computer talk, you're a, uh, what's it called? A virtual machine inside a larger machine. You know, that's kind of standard stuff. Uh, that's how a big mainframe can have a thousand users. You get a thousand virtual machines so everybody has their memory, everybody has their processing and so on. So anyway, that's what you are. You're a subset of this larger system. And I can make all of this, as weird as it sounds now, I can make all of this logic and science. This is not hand waving. This is not conjecture. This is the way it works. And I have done the science very meticulously, and we can discuss that too. But this is the way it works, and this is the big paradigm shift that the sciences have been looking for for the last 100 years since quantum mechanics was started and everybody realized that, uh, you know, they didn't really understand the world after all. So anyway, um-

   24. JRJoe Rogan21:34

       So you are a piece of consciousness?

   25. TCThomas Campbell21:37

       Yes. You're a subset of this larger consciousness system.

   26. JRJoe Rogan21:40

       So-

   27. TCThomas Campbell21:40

       You're getting a data stream. That data stream... You're the player. The data stream defines your reality, just like if you're playing World of Warcraft, you get a data stream. That data stream's displayed as a million pixels on your screen, and you look at those pixels and you see rivers and streams and people and houses and... You know, you turn that data into physical reality, and that's the way it is with us. We're getting a data stream. Out of body, you just shift to a different data stream. There's other things going on. There's The Sims playing someplace else. You shift to a data stream and now suddenly you're not in a World of Warcraft reality anymore. You're in a Sims reality. So that's how you really go out of body. It's entirely mental. Has nothing to do... It's just consciousness. It turns out all things paranormal, like out of body is a paranormal thing, all things paranormal happen with the intuitive side of your mind, not the intellectual side. And as much as people try to get there from the intellectual side, uh, they fail. They can't do that. You have... Consciousness has two different ways of processing information. One is logically, that's the intellectual side, and the other is intuitively. Okay? That's the intuitive side. So you have these two pathways. Now in our culture, we work on that intellectual side, that logic side, and we hone that. You know, we start learning things in kindergarten and up and we learn that and we hone it. We get good at it. We go to school. We go to graduate school. The intuitive side, eh, you know? Science tells you it doesn't even exist. It's... We don't work at it, but if you do work at it, if you put serious energy over a serious amount of time into that intuitive side, you find out that it's just as reliable, just as accurate as the intellectual side, except there's a big difference between them. On the intellectual side, you've got logic, but logic needs data. If you're gonna use d- you know, deductive logic, you've got to have data to plug in in order to see what's logical. And most of the time, we don't have the data. The questions and the things we want to know that are really important, like should I marry Sally or should I marry Sue? There's no data that you can put in to come to a logical...... conclusion. And only the most trivial things do you have enough data, you know, where are my car keys? Well, where was I last? You know, when did I get out of the car? What jacket was I wearing? What pants was I wearing, you know, and go check the pockets. Then where did I go? And logic can help you out because it's a simple problem. But if it's a m- not so simple a problem, logic has its limitations because you don't have the data. On the intuitive side, it's totally beyond logic. There is no logic. You just know. It just happens. The information comes to you, it's intuitive. And on that side, it takes, just like the intellectual side, a lot of practice and a lot of work in order to hone that and educate it and understand it. But when you do, you get information. There is information available to you. There's a database out there, and that database is, is required. The reason it's there is because it's required for the rendering. You know, you have a, th- the larger conscious system configures a piece of itself to be the computer, and that computer, in order to compute this reality, needs information, needs data. So it creates a database from which it takes information and helps it create. So the rendering engine needs that, but y- you are really a piece of consciousness. That information is in the consciousness system, you're a piece of that, so you have access to it. The Hindus called that the Akashic Records. Yes. Yeah, that's what they called it. But everybody has, who has learned how to control and work with their intuitive side knows is that you can get, information comes to you. You know, sometimes it's precognitive, if that comes from the future probable database. Sometimes it's historical, sometimes it's all kinds of data. So out of body is you just switch to a different data stream. Now you're in a different, what I call, reality frame. So that's what that is. The paranormal, all of those things are just the way consciousness works. There's a few things about consciousness, a few facts of conscious- or one, all consciousness are netted. So you can interact with any other consciousness, and that includes your dog or your cat or other people, and you can trade information. And humans do that all the time but they're not aware of it. They're, you know, you ever meet somebody and you, you just like them- Yeah. ... or you just don't like them? Yeah. Yeah, that's, you've traded some information there. There's a lot of things that come to people intuitively. Mm. Most of the best art and the best writing all comes out of that intuitive channel, where the artist just learned to work in that intuitive channel. It's downloads, they call it. You know, again, a computer metaphor. So that exists and very few people really learn to develop that intuitive side to the point that it is really reliable. Artists do, but only in them as much as they can do their art. Or writers, only in so much as they get downloads about the plot and the story and the characters. The muse. Yeah. So there's a lot of things, though. The, you know, the, the remote viewing, the healing with your mind. No, that's, that's not data out of a database. There's a, there's another, uh, attribute of this system. It's kind of our feedback for us to see how we're doing. And that is that in this, in this database, things are, things are in terms of probability. Probability is a thing will happen. What's the probab- what are, what are the possibilities and all the probabilities of those possibilities? Okay, that's how the database is constructed, and it's constructed about the future, okay? In the next 10 to the minus 44 seconds, what are the possibilities and what are the probabilities of each possibility? And the way the system works is that it takes a random draw from that probability distribution of the possibilities, and that's what happens next. Okay? That, understanding that lets you understand quantum physics and how it works, and lets you understand that the silly thing about, oh, the probability distribution collapses to a physical particle, because that doesn't make any sense. Probability distribution is mathematics. It's running in a computer someplace. How does mathematics running in a computer collapse to a physical particle? It makes no sense. That's not what's happening at all. What's happening is that reality is created by these ran- now, when I say a random draw, it's not a random draw from the possibilities, but from the probability distribution of the possibilities. That means the things that are more likely have a higher probability of coming out. The things that are one in a million have a very low probability of being drawn, but sometimes they are drawn. Things happen one in a million now and again, because sometimes they get drawn. Here, here's an example. A, um, a scientist, uh, gets a better telescope and he's gonna look into a piece of space farther out. Nobody's ever looked into that space before, so nobody knows what's there. So it's an unknown. Okay? So now humans do what we call in science take a measurement. So he's got this new device, he looks up at this piece of

3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. TCThomas Campbell30:00

      sky with his telescope, and that's taking the measurement. When he takes the measurement, a random draw is taken from the probability distribution of all the possibilities. Okay, now there's lots of possibilities what might be in outer space. It could be one of, say, you know, thousand things. But one, there's a constraint, it can't be something that doesn't fit. It can't be something that's, that's cockeyed with what we already know. You know, it has to kind of fit in to historical...... background. So that's one constraint. But all the things that would fit in are still a large number. So then the random draw is taken. That's what he sees. That's the picture he gets. That's what's in his data stream that's defining his reality. Okay? Now, he stops. He says, "Great. Took that picture. It's wonderful. I'm going to publish that." Okay? Now when he does, that's known now and anybody else who can look there will see the same thing. That's become part of our virtual reality. It's come into the virtual reality because, you know, that's how, that's how things come here. And a, a simpler metaphor- or a simpler explanation would be, you dig a hole. You go to your backyard with a shovel and you dig a hole. What's going to be in there? Well, you live near the Gulf Coast, could be a gold doubloon. You, uh, might get a dinosaur bone. You might get a rock. You (laughs) might get dirt or roots and you dig that dirt. Nobody knows what's in it. Random draw, probability distribution, that's what's in the dirt. Well, the highest probability is just going to be dirt and rocks and roots. But there's some probability, maybe one in 100,000 or one in a million or one in 10 million that it's that gold doubloon if you're down near the Gulf Coast, uh, where the Spaniards, uh, spent a lot of time exploring. So if that happens to come out of that random draw, then (smacks lips) there's the gold doubloon there. So you see, our reality is not what people think. And I got there through a very circuitous path. I got there through understanding and learning and doing research in consciousness, basically paranormal things, and did research in the non-physical. I get out of body and I do things, paranormal things that had evidence, like remote viewing has evidence. Either you got it right or you get it wrong. And I would then change a variable and do it again, change a variable and do it again. And I could get back in the same state very precisely because I'd done it hundreds of times. And eventually, by varying one variable at a time, I figured out how it worked and why it worked. And there are a few things that, uh, are key to it. Like one is that consciousness is what's fundamental. That's the fundamental thing, is consciousness. Everything else is a subset of that. Everything else is derived from that. Now, that goes back... That idea goes all the way back to Plato with his, uh, you know, analogy of, uh, you know, people in a cave. And all they were aware of was the shadows on the wall. You're probably familiar with that.

   2. JRJoe Rogan33:18

      Mm-hmm.

   3. TCThomas Campbell33:18

      Every- everybody is. And those people were called idealists. Idealists believe that there's... The physical world isn't really the, the fundamental thing. There's something behind that, something, um, invisible, something we can't see, that we're not aware of. And the physical world is just the, kind of the, uh, thing we interact with, but it's not the real, it's not the real thing. The real thing's behind it. Idealists. So they turned out to be correct. That is right. But the idealists got stuck. And if you talk to an idealist now, you'll see what they're stuck on is that, well, if... And then most of them at this point think that consciousness is that thing that's out there. And they say, "Well, if consciousness is fundamental, then you need to be able to derive physics from it." So can you do that? And they say, "Well, no," they can't. But I can, and I did. I can derive physics... I can derive quantum physics. So I know how quantum physics works and it's not weird science, it's all. It's a, it's a logical science, just like all the rest of the branches of science. Once you understand it, all those mysteries just fall out.

   4. JRJoe Rogan34:42

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   5. TCThomas Campbell35:55

      Okay.

   6. JRJoe Rogan35:56

      Intuition is something that some people struggle with.

   7. TCThomas Campbell35:59

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JRJoe Rogan35:59

      Have you determined any psychological barriers that exist that might be a part of some people's personality or some people's way of viewing the world that inhibits them from correctly interpreting intuition?

   9. TCThomas Campbell36:15

      Absolutely. There's a lot of things that inhibit, um, using the intuitive data stream. The data stream is available to everybody. You know, everybody can-... develop it.

   10. JRJoe Rogan36:29

       But why, why are some people like yourself-

   11. TCThomas Campbell36:31

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan36:31

       ... like, instantaneously almost successful with it, whereas other people, their whole life, they struggle?

   13. TCThomas Campbell36:38

       I was, I was, uh... Well, I hate to say this because it sounds kinda, you know, tooting my own horn, but-

   14. JRJoe Rogan36:47

       Go ahead. Tooting.

   15. TCThomas Campbell36:48

       I was (laughs) ... Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan36:49

       (laughs)

   17. TCThomas Campbell36:50

       I came here for a purpose, okay? And learning and saying these thing, saying the things I'm saying, offering up this information is one of those purposes. So-

   18. JRJoe Rogan36:59

       You mean, you came here-

   19. TCThomas Campbell37:00

       ... I was-

   20. JRJoe Rogan37:00

       ... into this existence for a purpose.

   21. TCThomas Campbell37:01

       I came here into this existence for that purpose. So it's, I'd been around a few times, uh, over the last couple of my lifetimes. I was preparing for this assignment, and then when it came, that's why when I sat down and meditated for the first time, I was gone. And-

   22. JRJoe Rogan37:19

       So you think you've had many lives where you've been on this path?

   23. TCThomas Campbell37:22

       Yeah. Now, yes. And, uh, I'll get back to the question of what those problems are, but yes. And I don't come to that sense, I call it, uh, experience packets, because I don't like to use words that are attached to religion. I don't call it incarnation. It's an experience packet. Um, anyway, I don't come to that conclusion because it sounded good or I liked it or the Buddha agreed with it. I come to that conclusion because I have this logical, scientific model of reality, and that you live multiple lives is a logical piece of that.

   24. JRJoe Rogan38:03

       How so?

   25. TCThomas Campbell38:04

       Well, it goes back to the, to the purpose of why we're here. So we're kind of jumping around a lot, but, uh, maybe we'll get it all pulled together. There is a purpose why we're here, why there's individua- individuated units of conscious has a, has a purpose. All of this has to have happened that way. This, uh, model of reality that I have is a logical model, and it's not a logical model in the sense that these things could happen, but these things must happen. You can reduce the logic down. There's only one path that really works, and that path leads us to be here for a purpose and a reason, and that, that requires us to, um... Where was I going with that? That, that requires us to make choices, and those choices depend whether or not we end the system evolves or de-evolves. It's a part of this larger process of how, how things work. Okay. What was your, what was that past question?

   26. JRJoe Rogan39:09

       Well, we started off with intuition. What are the psychological barriers-

   27. TCThomas Campbell39:13

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan39:13

       ... that keep people from recognizing-

   29. TCThomas Campbell39:15

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan39:15

       ... intuition correctly?
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   What is happening, what…

   1. TCThomas Campbell45:00

      have... you know, it's just open, and then it happens much more easily. Now, when it does happen, if the person is in denial, that's another thing. If you've got this belief, strong belief, that it's impossible, or even a strong belief that maybe it's possible but you can't do it, then as soon as things happen, your intellect will jump in with that belief and it's gone. So yeah, there's lots of things. Now, here's another thing that, that is a problem, and that is that people who haven't trained themselves constantly have stuff going through their mind. I mean, if you look at a EEG, you'll see it's all over the place. If you look at those color pictures you get out of the, you know, the computer, you see the colors are doing this and they're changing. These are thoughts and things constantly going through your mind. Well, if you're just open to information coming and your mind has got all this background noise in it, it's hard to pick the signal out of the noise. So that's why people say, "Well, first step is learn to meditate," because that's an exercise where you learn to quiet your mind, get rid of the noise. So a typical person has a pretty noisy mind, and that's a problem, but that's... just takes some discipline to get rid of the noisy mind. Um, so these are some of the things that inhibit it from happening in kind of the average, uh, Westerner. They got, uh, out of balance, too much intellect. They either want to do it or they're convinced it's impossible. Both of those will shut it off. They, uh, have, have noisy minds.

   2. JRJoe Rogan46:43

      What is happening, what is happening when you want to do it that's interfering? What is happening with the intellect when the intellect interferes? Like, what is disturbing or disrupting the signal?

   3. TCThomas Campbell46:53

      It's like the intellect is up on the edge of its chair, looking, watching, ready. You know, "I wanna talk to my dead uncle Fred. Okay, where is he?" It's... the intellect's in charge now. It's your intellect that's looking to try to find. You're not just relaxed, letting that intuitive channel open up and receive.

   4. JRJoe Rogan47:14

      So when you define consciousness, what, what is the intellect?

   5. TCThomas Campbell47:18

      Well, it's a way of processing information, and basically, it's using logic as the process. That's the intellect. I've had these experiences and here's what they've done, and that means that if I have another one like that, it'll probably be a similar outcome. All of that is using inductive mostly, but also deductive logic where there's enough information. That's the intellectual side.

   6. JRJoe Rogan47:41

      And, and how is that interfering with the intuitive?

   7. TCThomas Campbell47:44

      It's blocking the intuitive. It, it is... you know, basically you can say it's bullying the intuitive side. You got these two sides, one's strong, one's weak. You say, "I want to talk to my dead uncle Fred." Intellect jumps over and says, "All right, I'm on it. Where is he?" Intuitive side's sitting down and are not engaged. The intellect is in charge running the program. It's the one looking, but it can't ever find anything.

   8. JRJoe Rogan48:09

      Right. And if you are a piece of consciousness, you're a piece of a collective consciousness-

   9. TCThomas Campbell48:14

      Mm-hmm.

   10. JRJoe Rogan48:14

       ... like, what is the in- what is the logical... like, what is, what is the intellect? Like, what... how... w- what is the purpose that's serving?

   11. TCThomas Campbell48:23

       Oh. Well, the purpose that it's... the intellect is serving is that it's part of our choice-making process. We make choices. And I have to go back to the very beginning 'cause we're walking in... through this kind of backwards. So, um...We're here to evolve the quality of our consciousness, okay? The consciousness system is a real system, and it's evolving. It doesn't want to de-evolve. Maybe I should start there and kind of work up-

   12. JRJoe Rogan48:55

       Okay.

   13. TCThomas Campbell48:55

       ... work up to where we are now, and then a lot of questions will fall, you know, will be answered.

   14. JRJoe Rogan48:59

       Okay.

   15. TCThomas Campbell49:00

       They'll, they'll fall out. All right, so let's start at the beginning, and, uh, there, there's two strands here that I wanna, uh, do together. Uh, one of them is, think of a, a system, and that, uh, (sighs) is an information system, okay? Just general, general words, just an information system. And let's say in this information system, all the bits are random, okay? No information. Random bits defines no information. So what this... if this information system is actually going to evolve, it has to order some of those bits. So it orders those bits in a particular way, and the ordering isn't so important as it is that once it has an order that is of certain form, it can then make that stand for a number or a letter or something else, you know, a buffalo, you know? It, it can make... here's, here's this ordering, and I will give it a meaning, okay? So it can do that. Now, as soon as it does that, it orders those bits, it now has information, okay? So what an inf- what an, an information system does is it evolves, becomes greater, evolves by lowering its entropy. Ordering things lowers entropy, okay? Entropy is a measure of disorder. So all the bits random is the highest entropy that system can have. Order things, that entropy goes down a little bit, 'cause... okay, that's how, that's how that works. So if you have an aware information system, now this, uh, this information system is conscious. It's where... and it knows it has to order bits. That is its path of evolution. If it takes the bits and pulls them apart, now it's back to all random and it's dead. It's not an information system anymore. So it wants to evolve by, by creating more information. Uh, those, those bits that are defined to be a particular way, that's information. So it wants to create information. That's its... so the purpose of this aware information system is to lower its entropy. So that's one thing that we have to understand. Now, let's look at consciousness. A lot of people say, "Nobody knows what consciousness is." Consciousness is easy to define. It's an awareness with a choice. It's just that simple. It's awareness with a choice. Awareness of what's out there, what's in here, both self and of, of outside, of other. That's awareness. Okay? Now, (sighs) what does awareness have? How does it do that? How does it know what's in here and out there? It has to get data. So it has... it goes out and gets data. Now for us, that data comes through five senses. We hear it, we see it, we feel it, we smell it, we taste it. That's it. We got five senses. So our awareness has information. It gets, oh, this is an apple, this is a chair, and it learns to deal with that information. The second thing it has to have is it has to have memory, okay? If you have... if you don't have memory, everything you notice is the first thing you've ever noticed. So (laughs) to build something, to evolve, you have to have memory, okay? You also have to have some processing. You have to be able to look at those things in that memory and say, "Well, what do they mean? You know, what's, what's the connection? What does this tell me?" You have to make some kind of sense out of it to help you find your purpose, which is more order, lower entropy. Okay, so now, we take the simplest form of consciousness. Simplest form of consciousness is... remember, conscious is awareness, you know? Awareness has memory, it has processing, it has a purpose, lower its entropy. So that would be just a piece of aware consciousness that could be in state A or state B. That's it. It's binary. That's simple. It's the simplest state we can think of. So we can say, "Oh, I'm aware, and I'm aware that I'm in state A." All right? That's an awareness. And I can change that to state B. I've got two different states I can be in, a simple binary, and I can remember that. And now I can change it. Now I can change it again. And now I'm on a... I went from a zero to a one to a, to a zero to a one to a one, and I can remember that. Okay? So it can... it can evolve by creating patterns. That one... you know, that zero, one, one, zero... that's a pattern. So it can make patterns, and it can work with those patterns and evolve by making patterns of patterns and so on. And now it can take one... it can take just, just one, uh... well, let me put it this way. So there's two ways to proceed here, and they... it doesn't matter which way. They all end up at the exact same place, and that is... it all then... all the patterns of patterns of patterns created are in the memory of this cell. So it just... it's just its memory. Or you can say, if you follow the biological model, that it is... that it duplicates itself.... you know, like a, another virtual machine. It duplicates itself. So now you have two of these and this one's in a one and this one's in a zero and another and another. So you can do that. So one of them follows like, y- like our evolution here, biology. You know, we started with single cell amoebas and then they split and you had multiple cell things and then you had things that specialized, like in organs and then you had things like us, that... lots of different organs and specialized stuff. And we have a, a, you know... I've heard us described as a, as a, uh, a cooperative organization of about four trillion, you know, bacteria, or four trillion single cell things that are all cooperating and working together. So complexity builds. Okay, so we can do that. Complexity can build with high... with numbers of things or it can build just in memory of things, but either one will take you to the same place. All right, so let's say this thing is growing.

   16. NANarrator55:43

       Okay.

   17. TCThomas Campbell55:43

       It's lowering its entropy. And it'll get to a point where it's done all the patterns of patterns of patterns that it can think to do and it kind of stalls out, kind of hits a plateau. All right? Then it can take one of its little cells and just oscillate it from zero to one to zero to one to zero to one. Ah, just invented a metronome. Now it can use that one just sitting there going zero to one to create regular time. And now it can have sequences of patterns, of patterns of sequences. It can... more complexity. What that does... and that's when regular time was invented. It's a technology that consciousness creates. So then we have it growing. It's more and more order. And of course, it's learning as it goes because arithmetic is a natural for this thing, right? "I've got one thing, I've got two things." (laughs) "I've got another two things. Oh, I've got four things." You know, I mean, that's just natural. So it's going to explore that, it's gonna get good at math and, and, uh, so on, just kind of naturally. So it's growing. It gets to a point where it's stalled out again, it hits another plateau. It's this one big monolithic consciousness now that is... has thought of just about everything that it can think of. It's... because it's just one thing and it realizes that in order to grow further, I need to break off pieces of myself and give them independent free will. And now we hadn't discussed free will up to this time, but the, our little unit that I started with, that simple thing, it was binary, had to have free will, it had to be able to choose between A or a B or a one or a zero. So free will is that it could freely choose which one to, you know, which one to, to bring up. So anyway, so it's a... so it realizes that it has to do this. Well, our cells, you know, basically did the same kind of thing. They had to split and each one was an independent cell that now had to cooperate. So it said, "I need to split." So it did. It created a bunch of virtual machines. That's what we are. We're one of those virtual machines. That got it off of its plateau because now these virtual machines have their own free will. And the source can say, "All right, everybody line up. Here's what we're gonna do next." And they can go, "Eh, don't feel like it, boss. (laughs) I'm going fishing." They can do their own thing. Now you have a bunch of different perspectives on things, a bunch of different attitudes and the various pieces didn't all go through the same... you know, didn't all go through the same process. They all have their own processes, making their own choices in their own way. So now you're getting a much richer set of possibilities that you had when it was one monolithic thing. All right, now this, this whole set now, this whole thing that's growing up with its subset pieces is what I'm calling the larger consciousness system. And the first virtual reality, and a virtual reality is simply a rule set. Says here's the rules, everybody that obeys these rules, then they're part of this reality because they can share things. The first virtual reality was protocols for language, for, you know, for talking. So the system creates that, all these sub-pieces can communicate with each other. They have syntax, they have definition, you know, so they can talk. So now you've got this big chat room, it's a good metaphor, and all these subsets and the m- the main parent, you know, is still there, and they have this, this communication. Well, that creates a lot more opportunities for growth, but that also stalls out because the way the system works is try... its whole point is to lower its entropy and

5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   And that's where we've…

   1. TCThomas Campbell1:00:00

      the possibilities that all of these things interacting with each other creates a lot of possibilities, but the possibilities aren't a whole lot interesting. You know, after a while, you know, what do you do with 100,000 things in a big chat room? It kind of, you know, loses its novelty in a sense. So the system thinks, "I needed a different virtual reality. I need one in which the choices are more..." or think, "you can learn from them better by lowering your entropy. You can learn from them better because the choices are meaningful, the choices are important." And so it decided it would create the second virtual reality. And to do that, it starts with, I said initial conditions and a rule set.That set of initial conditions is this really tight, tiny little ball of plasma under extremely high pressure, extremely high temperature, and the rule set is basically what we call science, physics, chemistry, biology, that's the rule set. So it comes up with this rule set, it hits the run button, and that ball of plasma expands, and there's gravity that's slowing it down, but it's expanding under the force and things cool and you create suns and you've been through that big bang thing. But this is the same thing, except it's a big digital bang. It's just happening in a computer because the system needs a virtual reality. It doesn't want to program one because that comes out being stilted and, and dis- dysfunctional. There's always gonna be quirks that just got programmed in. It's not gonna be really always self-consistent. So the only way to make it self-consistent is to let it evolve. So now you have the big digital bang, and it starts out, gets just a short way, then craps out, explodes, goes to hell, and then, oh, let's change the rule set a little bit. Let's change the initial conditions a little bit. Big digital bang take two. Yeah, it gets a little further and so on until, you know, big digital bang 100,000. Oh, it's working pretty good. I'll just need to make one more little tweak and a little tweak. Now what this says is that the system is gonna tweak the system rule set and initial conditions until it gets something that serves its purpose. Well, it's got to... Let's say, let's say it all fell apart. Well, as... We gotta increase gravity a little bit to keep it together. Well, now it all sucked back in (laughs) to a spot. Well, we gotta talk... A- Anyway, it does this, and eventually it's got all the constants and the rule set working together to do something that works long enough that it can evolve something, an avatar, that makes the kind of choices that have a lot of substance to them. They're meaningful choices, okay? Now-

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:02:56

      And that's where we've come to.

   3. TCThomas Campbell1:02:57

      That's where, that's where we are, see? So we're these, these, um, pieces of consciousness, virtual machines within a larger consciousness system, and this evolution has evolved to the point that there are humans. Before us, there were dogs and cats and monkeys and other things, but they didn't... Their choices, what I call decision space, that's the, that's all the choices that they know. You know, like any given time, you may know, oh, I have five choices here. You might really have 25, but you know, the other 15, you don't, you don't know about, or the other 20 you don't know about. You just don't understand that those are choices of yours. So those choices that you know about, that defines your decision space. You can do one of five things. Okay, well, the other creatures had small decision spaces. So they kept with the evolution and even sometimes tinkered with it. You know, we have things like this in, in computer science labs all over the planet in universities where they've taken initial conditions and rule sets and let them evolve because they're trying to come to some kind of understanding, and they always tinker with the results. They get so far along and something isn't what they want, so they go in and tweak it a little bit out there. Well, that explains a lot of things. Now, one thing it explains is, uh, the thing called the, um, uh... Let's see, what was that? The, um, anthropic cosmology principle, cosmological principle, and what that says... And I have a little slide that I can show you that kind of-

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:04:40

      Sure.

   5. TCThomas Campbell1:04:40

      ... where that comes from, if you're not, if you're not sure of that. There's a... I just had to tell the guy what number it is. That Anthropic-

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:04:49

      Jamie have it here? Is this up on the screen?

   7. TCThomas Campbell1:04:51

      Yeah. This is, uh, number seven.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:04:52

      Look at the screen?

   9. TCThomas Campbell1:04:53

      Yeah, that's it. He's got it. Okay. It was a book written by two physicists and, um, both of them mathematical physicists, theoretical physicists. And they wrote this book, and what it says is that there's five or six things that have to be just perfectly tuned to each other in this universe of ours for our universe to exist at all. If any one of them wasn't exactly as it is, the whole thing would be unstable. It never would have existed long enough to produce humans. It'd be unsuitable for humans. It may be a bunch of rocks, but there really wouldn't be any possibility of life. Okay, so in order to support life, all of these various things are tuned to one another. It's not only that each thing had to be very special, but it had to be tuned to all the other ones. They all had to work together in order to produce this. So when these scientists realized that, they wrote this book, the... And they called it the Anthropic Principle because they said it looks like this universe was designed just for us, to make life be able to happen, because there's zillions of things that, of course, science says are all random, you know, everything happens, you know, randomly, that it's, it's virtually impossible that randomly all of these pieces could fit together so perfectly to make this a viable unifor- uh, uni- universe for life. So that's why they call it the Anthropic. It looks like it was made, you know, for people. And in fact, it was. And the question is, how, how would we get all of these things to happen and all be tuned to each other? Well, take one, take two... you know, take 10,000. They were ev- all of these were tuned in order to create the result, which was avatars that consciousness could, uh, attach themselves to. Now-

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:06:56

       And that's what we are.

   11. TCThomas Campbell1:06:57

       That's exactly what we are. Now-... think of what that means, what a virtual reality is. Okay? We said a virtual reality has a computer, has a player, has, has a virtual computation. Now, from the perspective of inside that virtual reality, from the perspective of the barbarian in World of Warcraft, the computer is non-physical. The computer can't be part of that virtual reality. It has to be, you know... Virtual reality doesn't compute itself. That computer has to be as Fredkin said, Dr. Edward Fredkin, it has to be in other, some place other than here. Some place other than this reality. The player and the computer communicating to each other, so they have to be in the same reality frame, and indeed, the player has to also be non-physical from the viewpoint of the avatar. So, if you're the barbarian and you're ha- and you're saying, "Gee, where did I come from?" Well, the computer is non-physical and the player is non-physical. Now, what's the player? The player is the thing that tells the avatar what to do. If you don't have a player, the avatar just sits there and wobbles to make you think it's alive, but it actually doesn't do anything, so you want that barbarian to run away, or fight, or cast a spell or something? You have to tell it. You're the consciousness. So the player is the avatar's consciousness. All right. Now, that tells us all sorts of things. So here we are in a virtual reality. We think that virtual reality is real and solid, just like the barbarian does. You know, in his reality, if he stays under water, he drowns. He falls off a cliff, he gets hurt, you know? He has to turn a doorknob in order to go in the building. He has all these physical things, and he thinks it's physical, and the player and the computer are non-physical. All right. So here we are. Consciousness is non-physical to us. It's not part of the body. It doesn't live inside your body and seep out through your head to go out of body. You are a piece of consciousness and you have a mission, and that is to lower your entropy. Now, one last piece, and that is when you have all these subsets of consciousness, they form a social system. They interact with each other. Well, in a social system, it's pretty obvious to see that it's interactive, that low entropy, which is the goal, is through cooperation, caring, helping, working together. And on the opposite side, I call that the love side. The opposite side of that's the fear side. On the fear side, there's not much cooperation, 'cause nobody can really trust anybody else. They're fearful. Um, there's not much caring about anybody except yourself. It's all about you. Uh, you very quickly join up with others, because if you don't, those others will take your stuff, things that you've gotten. They'll take it away from you because they're bigger than you are, so 10 of you get together and now you can take stuff from ones that are still single or the ones that have less than 10, 'cause you're bigger than them. So, if you let that fear side grow up to its natural logical conclusions, you'll have, you know, 3% of the individuals will control 95% of all of the worth, and everybody else is a peasant, and these will all be hierarchical. You know, you're gonna have a bunch of hierarchical things with the guy on top and then th- the next level down, the next level down, until you get down to the peasants at the, at the bottom of this pyramid. So, that's pretty much the way our culture is here on this planet. You know, we're, we're on that fear side, and our job is to evolve toward becoming love, kindness, caring, helpfulness. Instead of, "What's in it for me?" It's, "How can I help?" It's just that kind of an attitude. So if you look at this, you'll see we've dif- we've kind of derived a whole lot of things about us. Not only have we derived the answer to this, this, uh, paradox about the anthropic principle of how that could come about... How could it be tuned when this, when everything has to be random? You know, physics says it's always just random processes. Random processes, and you got these six things that are all perfectly tuned to each other? Impossible. You know? So, particularly in a, in a evolving universe where there are, uh, billions and billions of possibilities, you know? The possibilities were, were huge. And out of all those possibilities, just these things had to come together to make it work. Very improbable. Um, so that gets us to the general idea. Now, with that... There's a few other things, but with that, if you take this as a model of reality and, like I say, I didn't just make this model up. I'm not a physicist that does blue sky. I'm not a physicist that's into conjecture. I got there through just old-fashioned, you know, physics. Old-fashioned see what works. While I was up in Rose Lab and for the next 35 years afterwards, I'm trying to figure this thing out. What I'm doing is I'm, I'm looking for facts. Facts about consciousness. One of those facts I find is that consciousness is fundamental, and I know that because I can do things in consciousness that affect the physical. But there's nothing I can do in the physical that actually changes consciousness, so the arrow of causality is from consciousness to the physical.... and I repeated those kinds of experiments a lot, until that became a, a fact for me. Now, I understand that things that are a fact for me are not necessarily a fact for anybody else. Everybody else who hears this, hears an opinion, not a fact, you know? And that's as it should be. I tell people, "If it's not your experience, then it can't be your truth." But there's no reason that you can't have the experience that gives you that truth. That's why I started teaching people how to do paranormal things, because they wanted to find those facts out for themselves. So, in any case-

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:13:40

       Have you ever had debates with people about this? People that are, like, rational, sort of, uh, believe in, like, the fundamental reality that most people accept?

   13. TCThomas Campbell1:13:51

       Sure. Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:13:53

       What, w- what are those conversations like? Have you ever been persuasive to any of these people to have them-

   15. TCThomas Campbell1:13:57

       Well-

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:13:57

       ... open up their perspective and-

   17. TCThomas Campbell1:13:58

       Yes, so-

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:13:59

       ... perhaps take these things into consideration?

   19. TCThomas Campbell1:14:01

       Yeah. The, you know, the, the people ... I have, I published a paper in a peer review physics, c- quantum physics journal about experiments that would help, actual, just straightforward quantum experiments that would help provide evidence for this. And there's several experiments, I got one finished, and I've got several more yet to do. And on that paper, I've got a guy from Caltech Mathematics, I've got a guy from JPL, a physicist. So yes, I run into people, and I talk to people who have, you know, good scientific credentials, and so on. And it splits two ways. If they're open and unminded enough to consider it, they always come over to my side and say, "That's fantastic. I understand. That solves a whole lot of problems for me." If they are not open-minded enough to consider it, and they have the attitude, "Impossible, totally impossible.

6. 1:15:00 – 1:30:00

   (laughs) …

   1. TCThomas Campbell1:15:00

      Reality is m- is, is physical. Materialism is the only correct way." And then they just can't accept it. Now, when I ask 'em for, "Well, what do you find wrong with it?" They'll say, "Oh, well, about this," and I'll explain it, why that's not a problem, and so on. I can answer all the problems.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:15:22

      (laughs)

   3. TCThomas Campbell1:15:22

      And eventually, they just say, "Well, I don't wanna talk about it anymore, it's just impossible," and they walk away.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:15:29

      (laughs)

   5. TCThomas Campbell1:15:30

      So, that's the way that goes.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:15:32

      Talk back.

   7. TCThomas Campbell1:15:32

      And I would encourage you, if I say anything to you that you feel is not, uh, you know, rational, or doesn't make sense, or somehow doesn't follow logically, please, you know, this is the Joe Rogan show. Shout, "Bullshit! I didn't get that. I don't see how you got from there to there." Because I can tell you, and I can tell you in a rational, logical way.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:15:56

      Well, I believe you.

   9. TCThomas Campbell1:15:57

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:15:57

       I'm following your rational-

   11. TCThomas Campbell1:15:59

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:15:59

       ... logical way.

   13. TCThomas Campbell1:15:59

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:15:59

       I-

   15. TCThomas Campbell1:15:59

       No, I'm, I'm just skipping over the highlight-

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:16:02

       Yeah.

   17. TCThomas Campbell1:16:02

       ... you know?

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:16:02

       Mm-hmm.

   19. TCThomas Campbell1:16:02

       There's lots and lots of detail, but I'm just skimming from this point, to this, to the next-

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:16:06

       Mm-hmm.

   21. TCThomas Campbell1:16:06

       ... and so on. But what happens is, I can derive, I can derive, uh, physics with this. I can understand quantum physics. I can tell you why the speed of light has to be a constant. Uh, I can tell you why, why-

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:16:20

       Why does the speed of light have to be a constant?

   23. TCThomas Campbell1:16:21

       Because this is a virtual reality. In a virtual reality, there's this grid, and the, the, what can we say? The resolution of the virtual reality is basically determined by the smallest pixel. So, the smallest pixel of distance is a delta X, and we'll call that Planck's length. And the smallest pixel of time is delta T. We'll call that Planck's time. Now, that's the grid work. That specifies, you know, the number of pixels that you got in here, you know, the density of the pixels. Now, you take delta X, divide it by delta T, you get the speed of light. What that says is, as fast as you can move through space is one pixel of distance for every cycle of time. You can't go there. The only other way you could go would be to teleport, you know? You're here, and now you're gonna jump 10 pixels of distance in one unit of time. Well, that's just disappearing here and appearing over there. That's not a good virtual reality. It's a squirrelly reality where things, it's hard to say what's, you know-

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:17:28

       But isn't that the reality-

   25. TCThomas Campbell1:17:29

       ... what's happening.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:17:29

       ... of quantum physics? Like, when you're dealing with, uh, particles that exist and don't exist at the same time. They m- they're m- like, particles in superposition-

   27. TCThomas Campbell1:17:40

       Mm-hmm.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:17:40

       ... you know, quantum particles that are attached?

   29. TCThomas Campbell1:17:43

       No, all of that's done in probability. They have a probability to be different places. So, it's all part of the probability. Yes, they have a certain probability to be here, certain probability to be there, certain probability to be some other place.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:17:56

       An entanglement.
7. 1:30:00 – 1:33:12

   Section 7

   1. TCThomas Campbell1:30:00

      and there's really not even that many, uh, uh, what do you call 'em? Lemmas or propositions. It's just a few, you know, like two times three is the same as three times two. There's a couple of those things in arithmetic. All the rest of it is just logic. So, you have the logic of quantity because in a computed reality, a lot of quantities are computed. That's why, that's why physics has the ability to mo- to model reality with equations, is because it's modeled with equations to begin with, okay? So anyhow, you can also have logical models, models, let's say, that have the logic of relationship rather than the logic of quantity. And one of the most famous of those is Darwin's Theory of Evolution. Notice, and when I say Darwin's theory, I mean Darwin's theory plus everything we've added to it in the last, you know, century and a half since Darwin. So, you know, evolutionary biology, it's not real mathematical. It's got the logic of, of relationship. It sees how this relates to that, relates to the next thing, relates to this, and you find patterns. You say, "Oh, look at that pattern."... I predict that we'll find one of these. And someday somebody will dig it up and there it is. You know, you get one of these. So it makes predictions based on relationships to things. That is also science. I don't think there's any scientist that claims that evolutionary biology isn't a s- isn't a science because it's not mathematical. It's logical. Now, mine is the same way as Darwin's. I looked at a lot of things. I spent 35 years trying to piece this together and find out a set of understandings that would answer all the things that I knew as a physicist, you know, the- the existing facts, and it would solve all the things I knew from spending many, many thousands of hours exploring consciousness from the inside, in a, what you might call an out-of-body state. Exploring cons- how does it work? Exploring the paranormal. Why does it work that way? Why is it that sometimes you can do it and sometimes you can't, you know? Why does that- why does that happen? Why is it in these conditions it works well and those it doesn't? What does it have to do with diet? You eat things and you're not as good at it as you were before. What does that have to do with it? So it just takes a long time. That's about 35 years of constantly working on this before I got enough pieces that I put it all together. And the last big piece that I got was that, oh, it's about information. It's all about information. That's the key. And of course, that's the que- that's the key in quantum physics too. It's all about information. What does the experimenter know? Does he know the which way data or he doesn't know the which way data? It's all about information. And then once I got that, all the puzzle pieces came together and I saw a whole thing. And that was about three years after I had published the My Big TOE books.

Episode duration: 2:47:40