Joe Rogan Experience #2278 - Chase Hughes

Joe Rogan 0:00 (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

Narrator 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music)

Chase Hughes 0:14 Hey, man.

Joe Rogan 0:14 Good to see you.

Chase Hughes 0:16 Man.

Joe Rogan 0:16 We're debuting these, uh, mugs. My friend, uh, Turkey Merc on Instagram sent me these Cheshire cat mugs. Isn't that badass?

Chase Hughes 0:22 Yeah. That's really good.

Joe Rogan 0:24 Thought it'd be good for you, 'cause we're, you know, we're talking about mind fucks. Cheshire cat's a little bit of a mind fuck. (laughs)

Chase Hughes 0:29 In the simulation.

Joe Rogan 0:31 Yeah, for sure. So, uh, you were just telling me that you had a brain disease.

Chase Hughes 0:38 Okay.

Joe Rogan 0:39 And you... What did you do to fix it?

Chase Hughes 0:42 So, I, uh-

Joe Rogan 0:44 What was it, first of all?

Chase Hughes 0:45 Uh, it's temporally epilepsy with mesial temporal sclerosis.

Joe Rogan 0:50 When did you develop this?

Chase Hughes 0:51 We don't know, but, uh, I started having seizures, like, a few years ago. And everybody in my family knows I'm a neuroscientist. I say with a lowercase N, not a PhD neuroscientist, but, uh ...

Joe Rogan 1:03 But you studied neuroscience?

Chase Hughes 1:04 Yeah. I, I post-grad at Harvard and, and Duke. But, uh, they assumed, you know, Chase has studied all this stuff. He's gonna know if he's having seizures. But these seizures come with amnesia. So, I didn't remember that I was having any of 'em. And this is, like, three years ago. I had retired from the military and then started having these seizures. So, then I, I found a neurologist, the, the drug that they gave me, the number one side effect was seizures.

Chase Hughes 1:35 Of the, from this pharmaceutical company. So, I, I kind of looked around and I found this guy's a functional medicine guy, and he got me on, uh, methylene blue to start off. And I know Mel Gibson was on here talking about it.

Joe Rogan 1:49 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 1:49 And that instantly stopped everything. And, uh, some other stuff.

Joe Rogan 1:55 That stuff so- it was a fabric dye, right?

Chase Hughes 1:57 Yeah, in 1890.

Joe Rogan 1:59 How weird.

Chase Hughes 2:00 And it-

Joe Rogan 2:01 Who the fuck drank it first? (laughs)

Chase Hughes 2:04 (laughs) Who's that guy?

Joe Rogan 2:05 So, going, "Oh, they make blue jeans out of that?" Huh.

Chase Hughes 2:08 Yeah, let me-

Joe Rogan 2:08 What would it taste like?

Chase Hughes 2:09 Yeah. Let me taste some of that.

Joe Rogan 2:10 Why would I drink it every day if- if it affects my health?

Chase Hughes 2:13 It, it tastes like chewing an aspirin.

Joe Rogan 2:15 I, I'd take it.

Chase Hughes 2:15 Okay.

Joe Rogan 2:16 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 2:16 I take it every day as well. And, uh-

Joe Rogan 2:18 Yeah, RFK Jr. told me about it.

Chase Hughes 2:20 Yeah, man, it's fantastic. And so, this guy's injecting, in 1890, injects these rats with it and then does an autopsy on these things. And their brain, the brain stem, every single nerve is blue. So, he discovered this methylene blue has an affinity for neuronal tissue. So, he says, "Well, it's sucking into neurons, what's it doing?" So, we could talk about it if you want to, but-

Joe Rogan 2:42 Sure.

Chase Hughes 2:43 ... uh, how it's working and, and working in the body. So, he started putting it in humans. And we found out it's an MAOI, which is just-

Joe Rogan 2:52 Monoamine oxide inhibitor.

Chase Hughes 2:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:54 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 2:55 Uh, which helps with depression and anxiety and all kinds of life stress and stuff.

Joe Rogan 3:00 Does it, um, cause side effects if you're taking any drug that you shouldn't take with an MAOI?

Chase Hughes 3:06 There are some studies that have been recalled, uh, that said you can't take it with SSRIs 'cause you could develop serotonin syndrome.

Joe Rogan 3:14 Right.

Chase Hughes 3:14 But they, they did recall the study as far as I'm aware. And it is so incredible that it acts as a electron donor to mitochondria, especially your neuronal mitochondria. So, it helps you produce more ATP, and it helps you get rid of this stuff called reactive oxygen species. So, you have a oxygen molecule should have two hydrogens on it, and, like, your body's job is to convert stuff into water so you can pee it out. So, if you get an oxygen molecule, it's got four, five, one, it's a reactive oxygen, wh- which we call free radicals. So, methylene blue goes in there and balances a lot of those things out in your brain and your nervous system. So, it is, uh, a miracle, and it's been proven for 100 years. You know, it's the, one of the most well-proven drugs out there.

Joe Rogan 4:03 Well, what's the side effects of it? Are there any?

Chase Hughes 4:05 Not a, not a bunch.

Joe Rogan 4:06 I would imagine if you're taking an MAOI, there's-

Chase Hughes 4:10 They're, if you-

Joe Rogan 4:11 ... wild shit going on there.

Chase Hughes 4:13 Yeah. Like, if you mix it with, uh, anything that has metaramine in it, like, uh, aged cheeses, red wine, you're not supposed to mix it. If you're on a high dose though, but you're probably taking one milligram per kilogram, and you weigh probably 75 kilograms.

Joe Rogan 4:29 What's that weight? What's-

Chase Hughes 4:31 No.

Joe Rogan 4:31 ... 75 kilograms?

Chase Hughes 4:32 You're probably 189, 190?

Joe Rogan 4:34 Close.

Chase Hughes 4:35 Okay.

Joe Rogan 4:35 Yeah, pretty close. Little heavier than that.

Chase Hughes 4:37 So, you're probably s- okay. And, uh, so you take maybe 40 milligrams a day to 80 milligrams a day.

Joe Rogan 4:42 And do you put it in water, is that what you do?

Chase Hughes 4:45 No, I have these little troches. It's like the consistency of a Starburst.

Joe Rogan 4:48 Oh, okay.

Chase Hughes 4:49 And you just cut 'em up and they're 40 milligrams each. Uh, you obviously got to swallow 'em really quick or your teeth are going to be blue for the, for an entire day.

Joe Rogan 4:57 Yeah. Yeah, it's a pretty potent dye. I see it in my pee.

Chase Hughes 5:01 Yeah. Well, I had to change the toilets in my house to, to black toilets because my kids-

Joe Rogan 5:04 Ugh. (laughs)

Chase Hughes 5:06 (laughs) My kids take it, my wife takes it.

Joe Rogan 5:08 Jesus. Everybody takes it.

Chase Hughes 5:10 But, like, if you go to a party and you forget to flush, everybody just thinks that it's, there's-

Joe Rogan 5:13 It's one of those supplements that I take, I'm like, "Are you sure?" Like, every time I take it, I'm like, "Are you fucking sure?" Like, I, I drink it in, in water. I take a little eye drop and I squirt it in water and drink it.

Chase Hughes 5:23 Yeah. And every ... No, Gary Brecka told me about it, I should correct that. Uh, he told me to take it with, uh, red light therapy. That's, that's what it was about. Oh. And he tell you why, why it all works?

Joe Rogan 5:34 He probably did, but I probably forgot.

Chase Hughes 5:38 Well, it's blue-

Joe Rogan 5:38 Why does it work for red light therapy?

Chase Hughes 5:40 Um, so anything that's blue means that it absorbs red and reflects blue light. So, if you're in a red light therapy machine, all your neurons are soaking up way more red light than, than they otherwise would without methylene.

Joe Rogan 5:55 Oh.

Chase Hughes 5:56 So, it's fantastic. It's, like, 600X the effectiveness of red light therapy.

Joe Rogan 6:00 Really?

Chase Hughes 6:00 ... I, I'm making that up, but it is a significant-

Joe Rogan 6:02 Sounds good.

Chase Hughes 6:03 ... yeah. It's a significant increase.

Joe Rogan 6:05 How weird is it to be, uh, essentially a brain expert and get a brain disease?

Chase Hughes 6:11 It was horrifying, because I know where this is gonna go-

Joe Rogan 6:16 Wow.

Chase Hughes 6:16 ... at the end of the day. Your hippocampus, your memory center of your brain, is eating itself. And during a seizure, you can lose up to about a million neurons a second. And my, the seizures were, like, a minute and a half long. And they're not, like, shaking on the floor. A temporal lobe seizure, you're just kind of like, you're just out. Like, you're unconscious.

Joe Rogan 6:34 You just seize up like Mitch McConnell.

Chase Hughes 6:36 Yeah, like, you turn into a little zombie, your head falls down. And, um, at the end of the day, I, I tried so many different things to, to fix it and stop these seizures. I was at, uh, I was at a point of nine seizures a day.

Joe Rogan 6:49 Jesus.

Chase Hughes 6:50 And I was desperate.

Joe Rogan 6:52 And you think this is because of the medication that they gave you that causes seizures, or is this just a-

Chase Hughes 6:56 I never took it.

Joe Rogan 6:57 You ... Oh, okay. So you had seizures, but the medication ... Why would they give you something that has a side effect of seizures-

Chase Hughes 7:06 Well, I don't know.

Joe Rogan 7:07 ... if you were getting seizures?

Chase Hughes 7:08 And I don't know why their ... I mean, you hear so much about these, these medical schools getting paid off by companies and stuff that, that don't really have our best interests a- at heart. And I think that methylene blue, it's, you shouldn't have to tell a doctor about methylene blue. I think everybody should know about it. And you can get it on Amazon, you can get it ... I, I get mine from this company called Mitozen. And it's fantastic, and it's changed my life. It, I would've been gone by now.

Joe Rogan 7:36 What's the root cause of this disease? Do they know? They know what's going on?

Chase Hughes 7:40 So there's one, there's two factors. You have a genetic predisposition, so you have this thing in your genes called the APOE4 allele.

Joe Rogan 7:49 Okay. That's the same thing that causes you to get CTE.

Chase Hughes 7:51 And, yeah, or Alzheimer's.

Joe Rogan 7:53 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 7:54 And if you have that, plus-

Joe Rogan 7:56 I shouldn't say causes you, but-

Chase Hughes 7:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:58 ... you know, it's one of those-

Chase Hughes 7:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:59 ... ones where if you get hit in the head a lot, it's not a good thing to have.

Chase Hughes 8:01 Right. And then I did 20 years in the military, so being around explosions and all kinds of gunfire and all that kind of stuff, they said that it's probably caused some kind of concussive syndrome.

Joe Rogan 8:12 Mm. Yeah, that's a real issue, right? Expo- 'cause people think of concussions only as, like, you getting hit, but it's not. It's the, it's any kind of jolting to your body.

Chase Hughes 8:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:24 My friend Mark Gordon works with a, uh, a lot of soldiers and people with traumatic brain injuries, and he says you can get it from jet skiing, which is really crazy.

Chase Hughes 8:33 Wow, just the bounce?

Joe Rogan 8:34 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 8:35 I had no idea.

Joe Rogan 8:36 Part bouncing, the jostling. If you, like, people who really love jet skiing and do it all the time-

Chase Hughes 8:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:41 ... they start getting a little bit of CTE.

Chase Hughes 8:42 That makes sense. Our, our, our brain is floating.

Joe Rogan 8:45 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 8:45 It's neutrally buoyant inside of liquid, so-

Joe Rogan 8:47 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 8:48 ... that makes sense.

Joe Rogan 8:49 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 8:49 It's not smashing around inside your skull.

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Joe Rogan 9:52 value gift for free when you go to DrinkAG1.com/JoeRogan. Check it out. So how did you get involved in ... I mean, your, your space is like, you wrote this book, Behavior Ops Manual, and you're, you've got a lot of stuff online, like how to motivate yourself and discipline yourself, and that's g- how I, uh, found out about you. Some of the different videos that I thought were really insightful about, uh, how to sort of schedule progress in whatever you're trying to accomplish in your life, how to set things up. How'd you get involved in all this kind of stuff?

Chase Hughes 10:28 It's a story. I mean, I mean, I was n- 19 years old, stationed in Pearl Harbor. I got turned down by a girl one night, and I went home and I typed in, "How to tell when girls like you-"

Joe Rogan 10:38 (laughs)

Chase Hughes 10:38 ... on the, on the internet. (laughs) I printed out, like, a two-foot stack of, of shit just to s- just to read through, 'cause I didn't want to be rejected again. So-

Joe Rogan 10:49 That's hilarious.

Chase Hughes 10:50 ... I got into this body language stuff, and then it was just behavior. And the more I could kind of see somebody's insecurities and when somebody was stressed and the little fears that are hiding behind behaviors, like, it made them human to me. So I think I had some social anxiety, and me being able to kind of see behind that mask, I wasn't judging anybody, but it was just like, "Wow, they're, they're messed up too." So I kind of got addicted to that, and I just rode this line down this behavior path. And I got obsessed with studying all this behavior. And a friend of mine was killed on USS Cole during the, the terrorist attack in, in 2001. September 11th, the, the Cole got attacked in the Gulf of Yemen. And, uh, I was, like, reading these intelligence reports afterward that said there's failures on the ground. We didn't develop assets in the country, we didn't, you know, take the actions that we needed to take to, to get this intelligence. And I was like, "Man, they need this behavior stuff." So I got more and more obsessed with it, and I started training people in the government, uh, probably around the age of 30 or so. And that was, like, just a few years before I retired at 38. And I, I've, the novelty still hasn't worn off for me. I'm still obsessed with that, that field of study.

Joe Rogan 12:01 So were you trained to train people? Like, how did you go about starting to train people? What was it based on?

Chase Hughes 12:07 ... it was me. (laughs) I, the first group of people I trained was a car dealership, just to see if I could do it. I said, "I, I'm gonna go in there and, and do it for free." And then I started training people in the military, and these are US Navy and other, other branches. And I'm training them in, like, these, and I got obsessed with this interrogation stuff and how the brain works. And, and I got, mostly got obsessed with, if I'm an intelligence officer, uh, my job is to convince somebody to do something that's not in their best interest. Like, I, I need to convince you to spy for your own country and give us intelligence, or if I'm an interrogator, I need to convince you to confess to a crime. So, I spent time hanging out with, uh, people that do cult recruiting out in California. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:53 (laughs) There's like official people?

Chase Hughes 12:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:55 Like human resources for cult recruiting? (laughs)

Chase Hughes 12:58 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:59 What do you mean? Like, how do ... Do cults hire them?

Chase Hughes 13:02 No, I think they join the cult and the cult says, "Oh, this guy's really charismatic." Or he was a ... I think half of these dudes were, like, ex-club promoters.

Joe Rogan 13:11 (laughs) That makes sense.

Chase Hughes 13:12 Like, you know, they got that vibe.

Joe Rogan 13:13 Right.

Chase Hughes 13:13 You know, like, "Which come by tonight."

Joe Rogan 13:15 Right.

Chase Hughes 13:16 And I spent time in San Bernardino with a couple of people, three or four people, three people, that talked people, women, into doing adult films, like young girls that were 19, 20 years old and just starting college. And I talked ... And I asked them, "What are the methods that you use? What are the steps that you follow?" And I watched s- several of these interactions and then spent time with interrogators and people who do, like, timeshare sales and stuff like that, which I don't know if you've ever been at a timeshare sales pitch.

Joe Rogan 13:46 No, I have not.

Chase Hughes 13:47 They're hardcore. (laughs) And so, I spent time with all these people, and I, I wanted to figure out what are the elements that make somebody willing to do something that is maybe not in their best interest. And that transformed everything for me, and then I said, "We could use all of this stuff from M- Manchurian Candidates," which we can get into if you want to-

Joe Rogan 14:08 Sure.

Chase Hughes 14:09 ... to, uh, whatever, to help people instead of to do the opposite. So, I could use the same technique to help a person instead of get them to confess to a crime. 'Cause it's just a brain. I'm not learning about interrogation or cult recruiting or anything. I'm just learning, where are these little loopholes in the brain? Does that make sense?

Joe Rogan 14:28 Yeah. So what cults were these people recruiting people for?

Chase Hughes 14:33 I can't talk about it.

Joe Rogan 14:34 You can't say the name of the cults?

Chase Hughes 14:35 I can't say the name.

Joe Rogan 14:36 How many different people did you talk to that were cult recruiters?

Chase Hughes 14:38 Six.

Joe Rogan 14:39 Six? So there's more than six.

Chase Hughes 14:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:41 How many cults are there active right now?

Chase Hughes 14:42 It was two. There were two cults.

Joe Rogan 14:44 Two cults, six recruiters.

Chase Hughes 14:45 Yeah. I call them ... I would call them cults, but, um-

Joe Rogan 14:49 Well, I call a lot of things cults, so throw that word around-

Chase Hughes 14:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:51 ... freely. (laughs)

Chase Hughes 14:52 Yeah, let's do it. And these guys were just ... Uh, they were, they had that little Bill Clinton energy. You know what I mean? They just kind of captivated the person they-

Joe Rogan 15:02 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 15:02 ... were talking to in this little bubble.

Joe Rogan 15:03 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 15:03 They were all about you. They're really interested in you.

Joe Rogan 15:06 Right. I heard Tom Cruise is awesome at that.

Chase Hughes 15:09 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:10 I heard when you talk to him, you're like the only person in the room.

Chase Hughes 15:12 Yeah. And it's just that, that stare.

Joe Rogan 15:14 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 15:14 "Tell me more. Tell me more."

Joe Rogan 15:16 (laughs)

Chase Hughes 15:17 "Tell me about your mom." And you get that ... They all had that quality to them, but one of the things that all of them had, the one trait that I think all of those guys had, was they could get you to deviate off of your baseline really quick. And so, if you're ... If they can get you to curse, that's step one. They get you to say something that's a little bit out of, outside of a social norm, they would all do that as step one.

Joe Rogan 15:43 Hm.

Chase Hughes 15:45 Every single time.

Joe Rogan 15:46 Huh. So, what, what ... Like, in the cults, how would they do that? What would they try to get you to deviate from? What would they try to get you to do?

Chase Hughes 15:55 So, in the ... Their goal was to get you to agree to join the cult. So, if I can get you to do something that's outside of your norm, so I use something called elicitation. So, instead of me asking questions ... Let's say we get into the back of an Uber and I wanna ask the Uber driver to complain about his job.

Joe Rogan 16:12 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 16:13 Instead of using questions, which are weird, right? So, like, I'm like, "Hey, do you like your job?"

Joe Rogan 16:17 Right. That's weird.

Chase Hughes 16:18 It's, yeah, weird. It's like saying, "Hey, how much do you guys make?" Um, you say, "Hey, I just read this article the other day that said Uber drivers are the, are the most highest respected people out there and they love their job. They have the highest job satisfaction rating. That's incredible." And they turn ... The guy turns around, they're like, "What?"

Joe Rogan 16:36 Uh, so you bullshitted them. (laughs)

Chase Hughes 16:37 Right. So just ... That's called, uh, triggering a need to correct the record. It's one of the methods.

Joe Rogan 16:43 Oh.

Chase Hughes 16:44 But I very quickly get your brain to associate a mental script of friend mode, 'cause he doesn't talk about that with other riders. He, he bitches about his job to his, his friends.

Joe Rogan 16:56 Right.

Chase Hughes 16:56 So, I'm getting your brain to start shifting into this ... I'm behaving as if I'm with a friend.

Joe Rogan 17:01 Right.

Chase Hughes 17:02 So, I start getting that behavior out of a person very quickly. So, we're just activating a script in that person's mind that goes from, "I'm with a client," to, "I'm with a friend."

Joe Rogan 17:11 Hm.

Chase Hughes 17:11 And that's to get that first level of deviation of behavior right there.

Joe Rogan 17:15 Okay.

Chase Hughes 17:16 And you're ... Uh, once you get the script activated, you can start leading them in other directions. So, the second step usually, and this goes into Manchurian Candidate stuff, and if you wanna talk about Sirhan & Sirhan and all that kind of stuff, we can.

Joe Rogan 17:28 Sure.

Chase Hughes 17:29 Um, but to get them to start making a little bit of an identity agreement. Are you this type of person? So, in reality, if I wanted you to, uh, let's say join a cult, like, are you the type of person ... And I'll just have an A, B question.

Joe Rogan 17:45 Okay.

Chase Hughes 17:46 So, you know, in my life, I've discovered there's two types of people. There's people that take action when they know something is right, and there's people that wait and wait and wait. And I'm sure you know people that wait and wait and wait. But I've got you to agree that you're type one.

Joe Rogan 17:57 Okay.

Chase Hughes 17:58 Because I said, "I'm sure you know people." And your, even your head nodded.

Joe Rogan 18:01 Right.

Chase Hughes 18:01 Right?

Joe Rogan 18:02 Right.

Chase Hughes 18:02 So, I've got this little agreement of identity. "I am a type of person who blank."

Joe Rogan 18:08 Right. So, you're influencing a person to sort of go along with whatever narrative you've already created about them.

Chase Hughes 18:14 Right. Yes.

Joe Rogan 18:15 Okay.

Chase Hughes 18:16 And if, the moment you get to identity, then you're, you're guaranteeing that you can predict future behavior. And this goes really deep. We can get into hypnosis and all that stuff if you want to. And, uh, once I get identity agreement, this is the same thing with politics, you see the exact same thing, they, i- identity gets hijacked and then I can do anything I want, 'cause your identity's involved here. It's not you're agreeing with my ideas. You're agreeing because it's who you are.

Joe Rogan 18:43 (smacks lips) Right. But doesn't the person have to sort of respect you first in order to go along with this sort of social change? They have to have some sort of an appreciation of you. You have to be impressive.

Chase Hughes 18:56 At the very beginning, yes. But the moment your identity's involved, they can lead it further and further and further. And then, uh, so one of the third steps, there's a million, but if, there's a experiment, if Jamie could pull it up, uh, called the, the Lines Experiment with Dr. Solomon Asch.

Joe Rogan 19:14 Lion, like the animal, or L-I-N-E?

Chase Hughes 19:16 Line.

Joe Rogan 19:17 Lines?

Chase Hughes 19:17 Yeah. Line. L-I-N-E. So where this guy, uh, was at a table kind of like this, but there's, you're a volunteer at experiment, there's like 15 people in the room. Everybody else but you is a per- is a, uh, is in on the experiment. You're the only volunteer in the group.

Joe Rogan 19:33 Okay.

Chase Hughes 19:34 So they show you these lines that, um, are three lines on one page and then they show one page that has one line on it. So which line on this page is equal to this line over here?

Joe Rogan 19:44 Okay.

Chase Hughes 19:45 So obviously, you're, over here on the target line, you're gonna pick C.

Joe Rogan 19:49 Right.

Chase Hughes 19:49 Right? I mean, that's glaringly obvious.

Joe Rogan 19:53 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 19:54 So in this experiment, Dr. Asch is, is doing this conformity experiment. So these other people in the room all go before you and everybody in the room one at a time says, "A, A, A, A, A, A." And it gets around to the person, and this was almost 100%, 100% of people in the experiment would say A. And it's right in front of their face.

Joe Rogan 20:19 Hmm.

Chase Hughes 20:20 The truth is right in front of their face, and they would, they would go with the group because the group did it. The group is telling them what to choose.

Joe Rogan 20:29 But it's not even slight. Like the difference is so glaringly obvious. It's kind of amazing.

Chase Hughes 20:35 Unbelievable.

Joe Rogan 20:35 How did they, uh, pre-pick the people that were going to be the test subjects? Like did they have any specific things that they were looking for? Because I think there's a lot of people that even if you got 13 people to say A, they would go, "What are you guys talking about? It's C." Like was there anything about them that they picked? Like did, were these people pre-selected for being-

Chase Hughes 20:58 No.

Joe Rogan 20:59 No?

Chase Hughes 20:59 No. Uh, and they ran the experiment-

Joe Rogan 21:00 Do you ever think about yourself in that room? What would you do?

Chase Hughes 21:03 Yeah, and I worry. W-

Joe Rogan 21:04 (laughs) Do you?

Chase Hughes 21:06 No, I think in, in reality, we, everybody that's listening right now would say, "Not me." 100% of people would say, "I wouldn't do that."

Joe Rogan 21:15 Well, uh, I keep thinking it kind of depends on your station in life.

Chase Hughes 21:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:18 You know, where you're at. Uh, when I was young, I might have just said A 'cause everybody was saying A.

Chase Hughes 21:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:24 You know? 'Cause I didn't want to be an idiot.

Chase Hughes 21:26 So that's one of the things they did. They, they re- replicated the experiment on college campuses.

Joe Rogan 21:30 Hmm.

Chase Hughes 21:31 Whereas people are highly suggestible, they're young, they're still trying to figure out who they are, and so a lot more suggestible. And this is, if you think of the way that social media manipulates our brain, it, it falsifies tribal agreement.

Joe Rogan 21:46 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 21:46 And it makes us say A.

Joe Rogan 21:48 Right.

Chase Hughes 21:48 So we're willing to ignore everything that we see because we're seeing a tribe say that something else is happening.

Joe Rogan 21:55 Okay.

Chase Hughes 21:56 So it'll, it'll override our brain, and if there's one thing, like if you just, one thing that, that matters a lot is that our brains are not capable of this tech- of overcoming this technology. We don't have a firewall. And technology has outpaced our brain's ability to adapt to it. So I can falsify a tribe around you that says, "Oh, this is all happening right now."

Joe Rogan 22:20 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 22:20 And, uh, Dr. Phil, you and I both are friends with Dr. Phil.

Joe Rogan 22:24 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 22:25 Calls this the tyranny of the fringe.

Joe Rogan 22:26 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 22:27 Where this fringe pretends to be a group of a million people when it's just a small group that gets over a lot of attention, it's really inflated so it looks like it's more popular than it actually is. And if your identity's already there, then you, that auto- automatically makes sense and will ignore just basic facts. And it's not on, about the right or the left, it's both of those sides have been doing this stuff for a long time. But if I can get you to think that most of your tribal members agree to X, then most people, like 90% of people will say, "Okay, X is true."

Joe Rogan 23:02 Hmm. Well, especially with social media, right? Because obviously it'd be about, something about, something that's a little bit more complex than the size of a line, but you're so easily manipulated because it's not really just people that are responding. It's a lot of bots.

Chase Hughes 23:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:19 And you're seeing that more and more lately. Um, I was watching this video today and somebody pointed out after the video, "Look how many bots have retweeted this video." And it was astounding. So it's like, oh, there's a narrative that someone's trying to push because of this selectively edited video.

Chase Hughes 23:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:39 Like, wow.

Chase Hughes 23:40 Well, you're a dragon believer. I saw that post.

Joe Rogan 23:42 (laughs)

Chase Hughes 23:43 I love that so much, man.

Joe Rogan 23:44 (laughs) That's just The View ladies. They're crazy. They're, they're the gift that keeps giving. That said, poor lady Joy Reid, or not Joy Reid, uh, Joy Behar.

Chase Hughes 23:55 Yeah, said you believe in dragons.

Joe Rogan 23:57 Yeah, it's hilarious.

Chase Hughes 23:58 And the next day, I think I checked your, uh, Twitter and it was, just said, "Joe Rogan dragon believer."

Joe Rogan 24:03 Yeah, I said I have to change it now.

Chase Hughes 24:04 Yeah, it's perfect. (laughs) So beautiful.

Joe Rogan 24:06 Just for, for someone like me, that's like, that's a gift. Uh, wow.

Chase Hughes 24:10 And, uh, and it, what you were doing is not just... I mean, it was funny. It was really funny. But it, it helped to shine a light...... on the absurdity, the absurdity that, that s- some of these people will go to just give people misinformation, like the most obvious misinformation there is.

Joe Rogan 24:27 Well, not only that, but it was after she was talking about The View being a great source of information because they're a part of ABC News, so they check things, unlike me who believes in dragons.

Chase Hughes 24:40 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:42 (laughs) (claps) So I was like, It was so perfect! It's like, fucking-

Chase Hughes 24:46 Couldn't have been better.

Joe Rogan 24:46 ... "Did you even watch the video?" And then she said she double-checked it. "Did you double-check that?" Like, "Oh, yeah, I did." (laughs)

Chase Hughes 24:52 I checked it.

Joe Rogan 24:53 (laughs) Oh, it was wonderful. Oh, it made my day. I was happy all day that day. I was like, "What a great day."

Chase Hughes 24:59 It made my day to see you change your Twitter.

Joe Rogan 25:01 Well, it's funny when people are so... Their approach is so simplistic, it's so obvious to anyone else, that it becomes fun. It become- it doesn't work at all. Not only does it not slander you, not only does it not disparage people's opinions of you, it creates fun.

Chase Hughes 25:20 Comedy.

Joe Rogan 25:21 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 25:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:21 It creates comedy. It's like, it's so ridiculous. But this is the problem not just with bots and social media influence, but al- also with echo chambers, right? Echo chambers that people create where they get a bunch of people that only agree with them, and everybody disagrees with them. Instead of s- looking at them... And you see that on that show all the time. Instead of looking at someone else's perspective and going, "Okay, so tell me how you came to this conclusion. Like, why do you think this?"

Chase Hughes 25:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:48 And, like, letting them fully express them. Instead, it's like, "Eh! Eh!" Everything is interrupty. Everything is shouty. "I disagree with everything you have said."

Chase Hughes 25:57 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 25:57 And the audience claps (claps hands) , and, and they're gonna stand-

Chase Hughes 26:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:00 ... up for this or for that, or instead of having-

Chase Hughes 26:03 And it's-

Joe Rogan 26:04 ... a- an actual conversation about opinions and ideas and how you formulate them and how your mind works and how you think about things and why you think about things, instead of that. It's just ideological battles every day.

Chase Hughes 26:16 Exactly. And it's i- it's identity instead of ideas-

Joe Rogan 26:19 Yes.

Chase Hughes 26:20 ... is what it is.

Joe Rogan 26:21 Yeah. It's tribal. It's super... It's... Well, it's a bunch of people that are af- afraid to be alone and are afraid to be on the outside. And so th- whatever the group agrees to, they find some sort of mental gymnastics they can apply to these ideas to make them, make them relevant.

Chase Hughes 26:38 And i- it will r- reverse rationalize a lot of those decisions.

Joe Rogan 26:42 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 26:43 So they're emotionally made and logically rationalized-

Joe Rogan 26:46 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 26:46 ... in our head, but we think that it's a logical decision. And it, and i- it, it's so easy to weaponize a human being, from a Manchurian candidate to just to getting someone to like something on Twitter because it makes them feel morally or intellectually superior because they shared it.

Joe Rogan 27:00 It also makes them feel like they're a part of a team, which people love. I mean, we are tribal animals. We do not like to be alone, an outcast. We like to be a part of a team, which is why you see audience capture as a big thing that happens to people online. They find people that agree with them, and then they sort of lean into it.

Chase Hughes 27:18 Big time.

Joe Rogan 27:18 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 27:18 They lean maybe a little too hard towards that.

Joe Rogan 27:20 Yeah, a lot of people do.

Chase Hughes 27:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:21 A lot of people. They kind of lose who they are. And people love to accuse everybody of that. It's interesting because everyone's kind of aware of it now, that it's a thing.

Chase Hughes 27:29 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 27:29 Which is good. You know, it keeps people on their toes. Um, but when... Bringing it back to the cults.

Chase Hughes 27:34 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:34 So, they would try to get you to do something and deviate from your normal patterns.

Chase Hughes 27:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:41 And then, ar- most of these c- most cults are like sex cults, right? Like, pretty much all of them, right? They all-

Chase Hughes 27:46 I think they're just started by really sex-obsessed dudes that-

Joe Rogan 27:51 (laughs)

Chase Hughes 27:51 ... like, "You know what? I need a bunch of 20-year-olds in here." That's-

Joe Rogan 27:54 Well, there's a few cults that have been started by ladies, right?

Chase Hughes 27:57 Very few. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:58 Yeah, a few.

Chase Hughes 27:59 Just small ones.

Joe Rogan 27:59 And then there was that Wild Wild Country one, Osho's one, where the lady ran it. And he was kind of like, sort of just this very odd, eccentric guru, and she was an assassin.

Chase Hughes 28:10 I didn't know this.

Joe Rogan 28:11 Oh, you didn't watch that?

Chase Hughes 28:12 No.

Joe Rogan 28:12 Netflix documentary?

Chase Hughes 28:13 No.

Joe Rogan 28:13 Oh, it's fantastic. It's so good 'cause like all cult documentaries, it starts out like, "Oh, these people have it nailed." (laughs)

Chase Hughes 28:20 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:20 It starts out so good. They're, they're cooking together-

Chase Hughes 28:24 Like, "We gotta figure it out."

Joe Rogan 28:24 ... and laughing and dancing and doing yoga and having a good old time and chanting. And it seems like they're having a wonderful time. But eventually, they take over this town in... Was it, uh, Oregon? Was it Oregon, right? I think so, yeah. I think so. Um, somewhere in the Pacific Northwest. I believe it was Oregon. So they take over a town, and they actually bus in homeless people so that they can pump up their numbers and, uh, vote the- to take over the town.

Chase Hughes 28:49 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:50 Essentially what some people were accusing the Biden administration of doing with, uh, leaving the borders open for illegals-

Chase Hughes 28:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:57 ... and then allowing them to vote. Same sort of deal. So they, they took over this town, and they poisoned a bunch of people. It's like really crazy. It's a cr- crazy documentary.

Chase Hughes 29:07 But that's-

Joe Rogan 29:07 And then it e- eventually it falls apart.

Chase Hughes 29:09 Isn't that most cults?

Joe Rogan 29:10 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 29:10 Like, the... Like, you look at it at the- from the outside, you're like, "Wow, they're barefoot, walking on grass. They're eating natural stuff, organic stuff."

Joe Rogan 29:16 Having just a good time.

Chase Hughes 29:17 They sing together. They're having this good time.

Joe Rogan 29:19 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 29:19 And then, then they take you into the room.

Joe Rogan 29:21 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 29:21 And they say, "You know what, Joe? You've reached the level. Uh, aliens live in your butthole."

Joe Rogan 29:25 Ah, "We gotta get them out."

Chase Hughes 29:26 And they're gonna p- Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:27 Yeah. Something along those lines.

Chase Hughes 29:28 Just something crazy.

Joe Rogan 29:29 It's... A lot of them are sex cults. If they're not sex cults, they're, like, money cults or power cults or, you know, or ideological cults, which I think progressivism is. I think it's an ideological cult. And I think that, um, people, uh, they enjoy being around people that are very confident that they're correct.

Chase Hughes 29:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:48 When someone, like, if... You know, most of us, like, don't... What is life all about? So many questions. And if you come across someone who has all the answers, and they're so confident about it, it's very attractive.

Chase Hughes 29:58 Yeah.

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Chase Hughes 31:09 And, uh, I think for people that are asking questions, what are the... Which may be the type of people that are joining these cults. They're, they're questioning things in their life.

Joe Rogan 31:16 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 31:16 Our brains are naturally attracted to certainty and authority. And there's, we can talk about man- Authority is what we really probably should talk about. But we're attracted to that and our brains, the mammalian part of our brain, will simply follow somebody that is easily followed.

Joe Rogan 31:33 Mm.

Chase Hughes 31:34 Like, what is the, the clearest signal? It's not the smartest person in the room, not the best idea. What's the clearest signal that's pointing in a direction that I can follow? And our brains will just default to, once we trust that authority figure, we're automatically gonna assign good traits to them, we're gonna think that they're a good person, we're a good person, because we're aligning with this person just because they were followable.

Joe Rogan 31:57 Okay.

Chase Hughes 31:58 So it's a clear message.

Joe Rogan 31:59 And so these guys who were recruiting people for cults, were they open with you about this stuff or did you kind of like figure it out by talking to them?

Chase Hughes 32:08 I signed a ridiculous non-disclosure agreement with each one of them individually. The main-

Joe Rogan 32:14 (laughs) The cults have NDAs?

Chase Hughes 32:16 No, no, no. The, the, the main-

Joe Rogan 32:17 The individuals did?

Chase Hughes 32:18 ... the main organization did not know I was there.

Joe Rogan 32:20 Oh. Oh, I see, I see.

Chase Hughes 32:21 And it was mostly, they would go around the mall. It, they spent time around these shopping mall areas-

Joe Rogan 32:26 The mall?

Chase Hughes 32:26 ... and talk to people. Yeah. And it was like, it was all kind of very basic at the beginning. So cults' indoctrination is a longer process. It's not like, "Hey, let me talk to you for five minutes," and you're like, "Yeah, yeah, I'll join your cult and we'll worship aliens and stuff together." It's, it's a long process where like the deviation escalation continues to increase over time. And it's the exact same way if you're, if you're programming some Manchurian candidate or if you're a hypnotist and you're seeing a client, you want to get them to deviate from their normal behaviors, right? To fix-

Joe Rogan 32:56 Right.

Chase Hughes 32:56 ... fix their behavior.

Joe Rogan 32:57 Right.

Chase Hughes 32:58 So it's not all bad. So we can use those same, a lot of those same techniques to help somebody instead of hurt them. That's what I started discovering over the years, and I've studied like how to access every loophole in the human brain, and the fastest way to do that is through novelty and authority, number one. And, uh, there's nothing faster, uh, in the human brain that, where that'll give you that kind of access.

Joe Rogan 33:23 Novelty and authority. Like, give me some examples of that.

Chase Hughes 33:26 So let's say, uh, you and I are living 10,000 years ago, 15,000 years ago. The average tribe of people was like 150, 120. And let's say your job and my job was to go and collect fish in a bag, and fish, and then kind of bring it back to the tribe at the end of the day. And every day we went to the same spot, and it's a great spot. We walked by this bush, this big ass bush, and one day we're going back and talking about the fish we got, and you hear a stick snap behind that bush that we haven't heard before. So it's an, it's an unexpected deviation from your mental script of what's gonna happen. Does this make sense so far?

Joe Rogan 34:03 Okay.

Chase Hughes 34:05 So we're walking by the bush, the stick snaps. Now, what's generated in that moment is a tremendous amount of focus. Like there could be a threat, it could be a rabbit that we can eat, right? So a threat or a value is what our, how our brain responds to something new and something unexpected. Is it a threat? Is it valuable, socially or otherwise valuable? So the stick breaks. We're not thinking about our kids. We're not thinking about how many fish are in the bag. We're only thinking about this novel new thing that interrupted my brain's script of what I thought was gonna happen.

Joe Rogan 34:36 Okay.

Chase Hughes 34:37 You with me so far?

Joe Rogan 34:37 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 34:38 So in our life, when we see something that's unexpected, something that we... I guess we're, we're not expecting. So we're driving a car, blue lights in your rear view mirror is tremendous amount of novelty, threat, value, right? So our brain says, "This is how I tie my shoes. This is how I go to work. This is how I run the cash register at Starbucks," whatever it is. We develop these apps in our head. And when something interrupts one of those programs, our brain automatically says, "This is different. This is not expected. I need all of my focus down on this one thing."

Joe Rogan 35:14 Okay.

Chase Hughes 35:15 And that's how novelty starts to trigger our brain. Make sense so far?

Joe Rogan 35:18 Yes.

Chase Hughes 35:19 And authority is the second piece.

Joe Rogan 35:21 So what, what would be an example that someone would use as like novelty to get, like novelty and authority, if you wanna get someone to follow you, like what would be novelty that we would apply?

Chase Hughes 35:31 Give me any, any scenario and I'll, I'll tell you.

Joe Rogan 35:34 Okay. You're trying to get someone to join a cult.

Chase Hughes 35:36 Yeah. So the novelty right away is, "I'm gonna approach you and say something or ask you a question that you've never been asked before, and that there's no possible way that your brain could have gotten ready for that scenario." And it could be something ridiculously stupid. It'd be like, "Hey, did you see these guys fighting outside like, here last week?" Or you're walking up and you say, "Hey, I'm gonna ask you three questions, but you only have 12 seconds to answer." No one's ever said something like that.

Joe Rogan 35:59 Okay. So you're just getting them out of their comfort zone, getting them into like, "Whoa, what's going on?"

Chase Hughes 36:03 Yeah. We're breaking a pattern.

Joe Rogan 36:04 Okay.

Chase Hughes 36:05 So we're, we're, we're all running on patterns all the time. The moment a pattern is broken, we have tremendous focus. So focus is the first step to hacking the mammalian brain. Authority is next.... and authority is, like if you look at the Milgram experiment. Have you heard of this?

Joe Rogan 36:21 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 36:21 Oh my God. Have you, are you, have you gone deep on it?

Joe Rogan 36:25 Not really. I mean, but explain it to people so they know-

Chase Hughes 36:27 Okay.

Joe Rogan 36:27 ... what you're talking about.

Chase Hughes 36:28 Jamie, can we bring up a picture of the box? The shocking, uh, box from this experiment is just-

Joe Rogan 36:33 Essentially they told people that they had to keep shocking people even if, and then they did it to the point where they thought the other person on the other side was actually dead and they kept shocking them.

Chase Hughes 36:42 Yeah. Yeah. And so there-

Joe Rogan 36:43 What year was this?

Chase Hughes 36:44 Uh, '62. 1962 at Yale University. Um, this is a variation of the experiment, but just go to the one, the third one right there. So that's, uh, Stanley Milgram standing over that machine right there. So you'll notice on the bottom right it says, "Danger: Severe Shock," right there.

Joe Rogan 37:04 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 37:04 So you're essentially told you're gonna ... the guy's on the other side of a drywall- wall. He's in another room, but you can hear him yelling every time you shock. And every time you're asking him these questions and he gets the answer wrong, he's like a, he's acting like a dumbass. He's obviously in on the experiment.

Joe Rogan 37:18 Right.

Chase Hughes 37:18 But these people think they're shocking this guy. And in real life ... Man, I had that in airplane mode.

Joe Rogan 37:26 (laughs)

Chase Hughes 37:26 So in-

Joe Rogan 37:28 (clears throat)

Chase Hughes 37:28 ... in real life, this guy is just, he's running a script. He's a, a participant in the experiment. He's in on it. But as the person's getting shocked, you hear him scream, you hear him say, "I want to get out of here. I don't want to do this anymore. I have a heart condition." He's banging around. And then a- at around 300 volts, and it goes up to 450 on this machine, 300 volts, no more sound. He stops answering questions. And these people are sitting there at the machine kind of turning around to this guy in the lab coat that's running th- running this experiment. And the guy in the lab coat's saying, "Well, it's important that you continue. The experiment requires that you continue." And they keep going. They keep delivering electric shocks to this guy that was screaming before and is now silent. He's not even answering these questions on the test anymore.

Joe Rogan 38:14 Did everybody do it?

Chase Hughes 38:16 So before the experiment started, these bunch of psychologists got together and they said like, "All right, who's gonna go all the way through? Who's gonna do everything?" And they thought 0.4%, something like that. It would have to be a psychopath, it would have to be somebody that was malicious or wanted to hurt people. And after the experiment was conducted, 67% of people went all the way.

Joe Rogan 38:42 (sighs)

Chase Hughes 38:42 And this is ... So what we're really dealing with here is not an experiment. It's a person being talked into murder in less than an hour. A regular, normal human being, talked into murder.

Joe Rogan 38:56 67% of them?

Chase Hughes 38:57 67%. And 250 volts is enough to kill you. Would you agree? If you have the right amps.

Joe Rogan 39:02 Uh, I don't know, but, uh, I believe you.

Chase Hughes 39:05 Yeah. 100% went to 250.

Joe Rogan 39:09 Geez.

Chase Hughes 39:09 100%.

Joe Rogan 39:11 So (laughs) -

Chase Hughes 39:13 Geez. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:13 So that could kill you. 100% at least attempted murder.

Chase Hughes 39:16 Yeah. And I train sales teams all the time. They're like, "Oh, we have, you know ... it's hard to sell this product or this thing." And, uh, I'm like, I show them this thing and like, "Where's the sales script these guys use at Yale University?" There wasn't a script. It's not like, "Oh, let me get the perfect words on the phone for this telemarketing company."

Joe Rogan 39:33 Right.

Chase Hughes 39:34 There's no script. There's no hypnosis. There's no like NLP stuff going on where, um, I have to say these little magic words. And I kind of view that aspect of persuasion, like the guys that are obsessed with sales scripts, it's like Harry Potter. Like, there's no magic words that are gonna make someone take action. We take action based on the mammalian brain. And what was present there at Yale University, if you're the volunteer there, you respond to an ad in the paper you've never responded to before. Novelty. At a university you've never been to, at a building you've never been in, with two people you've never met, in a room you've never been in, sitting in front of a machine that's absolutely foreign to you. It's alien. Every single step of the way was novelty. And then the guy in the lab coat, they made him like, I think he was six foot seven, and he's running the experiment. And we have this stuff called white coat syndrome where we respond to doctors.

Joe Rogan 40:27 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 40:28 And there's even, uh, research where people were given diagnoses and that they, for things they didn't have, and they developed the symptoms because a doctor has told them this. And that's how powerful novelty plus authority is, is you ... There are people talked into murder in under an hour, and there's no magic recipe to do it. It's authority and novelty. And authority has five components if you want to-

Joe Rogan 40:53 Sure.

Chase Hughes 40:53 ... just go into them. So that's confidence. Obviously somebody's got to be really confident to be an authority figure, and this is just a conviction in my belief and a, and a generalized belief in my head that everything's gonna be fine, everything's gonna be okay. Discipline is number two. And discipline, I don't say discipline is part of authority because like if everybody ... Like, when you were younger, you ever like go to a party and like put a really nice suit on and all that stuff, and like you're, you had a seven-foot pile of laundry back at home, like shit all over your bathroom counter, like you were not put together? I w- I was there. But like there's a part of our brain that reminds us that we don't have everything together. So when we go out, we're not ... other people aren't saying, "Oh, this guy's not disciplined." No one's saying that, but they are getting a gut feeling that something's off.

Joe Rogan 41:40 Mm.

Chase Hughes 41:41 Because there's something dysharmonic. There's something incongruent about our behavior because we know, there's a part of our brain that says, "You know, I'm faking this right now. I'm not this put together."

Joe Rogan 41:50 Mm.

Chase Hughes 41:51 So having discipline off camera when nobody's looking makes gut feelings in people. It's, was one of those things where we're, we have this ancient brain that's judging whether or not everything's congruent. So confidence, discipline, leadership. And leadership just means if I brought you back 1,000 years, could you still, would people still follow you? Like your behavior is confident and certain enough and all of that, that people would follow you. Not language and all that. Do you say the right things and do you give people compliments? That's n- What I mean is tribal leadership from the mammalian perspective, not human.So, confidence, discipline, leadership, gratitude and enjoyment are the final two. Gratitude just... Not saying like I'm, I'm keeping this gratitude journal every day or anything like that, but just I'm a grateful person. And I have perspective in gratitude so I'm able to zoom out and think of like the larger picture when I'm thinking of gratitude. Not just like, "Oh, thank... I'm thankful for my health today," but, "I'm thankful like we didn't have a nuclear war yesterday. We didn't have all this stuff happen." And w- what... The reason these things are effective is because they produce... Having them when nobody's looking produces the precise gut feelings in another person that make them say, "That's an authority figure." So, when you have authority, you can get away with anything you want. And I go to these companies, I train companies and people all over in how to increase sales and all that. And they're all like, "Well, we have a good script. We've got this piece of paper right here that's, that's really great. We spent $10 million developing this sales script." I'm like, "Give the script to somebody out here with social anxiety and have them get on the phone." They're gonna, they're gonna bomb. They'll be the worst fricking salesman out there, 'cause they, they... The script is meaningless. But everybody puts so much value in these words. It's who you are first, then what you say. And, and people just ignore the first part. I mean, if you think of... If I go off on a, a small rant here, I could, I could tell something, a question about blowing off (laughs) in your head.

Joe Rogan 43:56 No, go ahead.

Chase Hughes 43:57 Uh, there's, there's too many times people obsess over symptoms instead of causes. So, you go on LinkedIn or whatever and it says, "How to be confident. Here are the 15 ways to be confident. Here's the 12 things that confident people do. They have great posture, they make good eye contact, there's a firm handshake, they use your name, they pat you on the shoulder," all this kind of shit. Those are symptoms of being confident, it's not confidence. So, our culture today is obsessed with symptoms of things. Let me get symptoms of wealth. I'm going to get this Porsche, I'm going to get this yacht, I'm going to get this plane, post it all over Instagram and show people that I have these symptoms. So, what we're really looking at is... Like when I'm trying to... somebody's trying to learn sales, let me teach you the symptoms of what a good salesperson has instead of the cause of what makes them a good salesperson.

Joe Rogan 44:45 Mm, that makes sense. So, in order for someone to truly be confident, they have to take all those steps to make... Do you want some coffee?

Chase Hughes 44:55 No. Actually, yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:57 Okay. You want it in the crazy cup or a regular one?

Chase Hughes 44:59 I'll take the crazy cup.

Joe Rogan 44:59 Crazy cup's a little harder to drink out of. Here you go.

Chase Hughes 45:01 Is it?

Joe Rogan 45:01 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 45:01 I'll switch. I don't want to dirty that one up.

Joe Rogan 45:03 No, don't worry about it. Um, so they, they, they have to have all those ducks in a row. If they don't, people are going to sense it. They're going to know. Even if they exhibit all the behavior characteristics of someone who's confident, there's going to be something off, 'cause we-

Chase Hughes 45:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:21 ... have some way, some ancient way of un... of detecting bullshit in ourselves.

Chase Hughes 45:28 Yeah, we get those gut feelings.

Joe Rogan 45:29 Yeah. We know when something's off, someone's a little full of it-

Chase Hughes 45:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:33 ... someone's faking it.

Chase Hughes 45:34 Yeah. And now, I mean, we've all had that experience, like s-

Joe Rogan 45:36 Yes.

Chase Hughes 45:36 ... everything looked right on the surface.

Joe Rogan 45:38 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 45:38 Anybody who was watching it from a distance probably was like, "Wow, that guy's really confident." But in your gut you're like, "Something's off. Something wasn't right."

Joe Rogan 45:44 Well, particularly if you have all those bases covered. If you have all those bases covered, I think it makes it far easier to see in other people when they don't.

Chase Hughes 45:56 Yeah. Because, I mean, if you have confidence, that means I'm living in front of my eyes.

Joe Rogan 46:00 Right.

Chase Hughes 46:01 I'm not just stuck back here the whole time.

Joe Rogan 46:02 So, if you're gonna teach people how to be confident, essentially, you have to teach them how to get their shit together.

Chase Hughes 46:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:09 Unequivocally. Like-

Chase Hughes 46:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:11 ... undoubtably, you know, undebatably. Like you have to, you have to have your shit together, clearly.

Chase Hughes 46:19 Yes. Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 46:19 Otherwise, you're not gonna really be confident. You're always... It's always the back of your head, it's always going to be fucking with you.

Chase Hughes 46:24 Yeah. And there's five areas of your life that I've identified. These are not... This is not some self-help program or anything, but there's five areas of your life that create gut feelings in other people and that's your environment, how you handle all of these things, your environment, your time, your appearance, your social skills, and your financial life. Like, if I've got unpaid bills, I've got creditors knocking on my door all the time, and then I go out and try to look like I've got my shit together, I'm gonna send those signals that something's not right.

Joe Rogan 46:51 To people that are aware, not to people that are willing to join cults.

Chase Hughes 46:55 Right.

Joe Rogan 46:56 (laughs)

Chase Hughes 46:56 Correct.

Joe Rogan 46:57 That's the problem, is that there's not really an operating manual for life or for the human mind. And we're dealing with these very complicated systems. Complicated systems of work and social life and, and hobbies and all the different things that people do. It's very-

Chase Hughes 47:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:15 ... very complicated. And a lot of people are just kind of like stumbling through it, learning along the way, hopefully every time they fuck up.

Chase Hughes 47:24 Yeah. Yeah. So, and a lot of that is, uh, the, uh... Even with these cult recruiters, these people have an unconscious knack to spot suggestible people. So, your level of suggestibility is how much will you think a person's an authority figure even if they're faking confidence? That's basically what that is.

Joe Rogan 47:43 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 47:43 Will you accept a suggestion and act on it? And we've got guys like Sirhan Sirhan, uh, who killed RFK, uh, in San Francisco. This is '60s.

Joe Rogan 47:55 I think it's Los Angeles.

Chase Hughes 47:57 I think it was San Francisco.

Joe Rogan 47:58 I think it's Los Angeles, because I was at the actual, uh, hotel where they did it.

Chase Hughes 48:02 Where they... Okay.

Joe Rogan 48:02 They actually filmed Fear Factor there.

Chase Hughes 48:04 Okay.

Joe Rogan 48:04 See, that's true.

Chase Hughes 48:06 I don't doubt you at all. But-

Joe Rogan 48:07 I'm pretty sure. Pretty sure it was Los Angeles. And there's also some debate as to whether or not he did it.

Chase Hughes 48:11 Oh, I did a whole video on this on my channel.

Joe Rogan 48:14 Yeah?

Chase Hughes 48:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:15 But what did... I don't know enough about it.

Chase Hughes 48:17 Oh.

Joe Rogan 48:17 But I know that there's some people that, you know... Obviously, there's some people that think that, like, JFK's driver shot him. There's some, like, kooky, kooky s- conspiracies. Yeah, Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles, shortly after-

Chase Hughes 48:28 Okay.

Joe Rogan 48:29 ... Kennedy had finished. Yeah. So, that hotel, we filmed Fear Factor there once, that's the only reason why I know.And we were in the kitchen, where, like, Sirhan Sirhan-

Chase Hughes 48:36 Oh, that, it happened in the kitchen.

Joe Rogan 48:37 Yeah. We were in the spot.

Chase Hughes 48:39 Oh, man.

Joe Rogan 48:39 I'm like, "This is crazy that we're filming this stupid fucking show in a place where a presidential candidate got murdered."

Chase Hughes 48:45 Yeah. Was, was that the reason they filmed there? Was-

Joe Rogan 48:47 Um ... I think a lot of stuff filmed in that hotel. I think the hotel had been defunct, and a lot of, um, the, there's like abandoned buildings and things in Los Angeles that they use for filming stuff.

Chase Hughes 49:01 Okay.

Joe Rogan 49:02 You know, 'cause it's a big filming industry, like they'll film films and TV shows and stuff there if they ... It's like a cool environment. And it was like spooky, rundown, old hotel. I don't even remember the show, the episode.

Chase Hughes 49:13 Well.

Joe Rogan 49:13 But I just remember us being in that-

Chase Hughes 49:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:15 ... that room, going, "Eurgh."

Chase Hughes 49:17 Weird feeling.

Joe Rogan 49:18 Yeah. So the Sirhan Sirhan thing is, like, that, people believe that that's part of MKUltra, that he was some sort of mind-controlled person.

Chase Hughes 49:27 I do.

Joe Rogan 49:27 Yeah?

Chase Hughes 49:28 And I, I mean, I may be the number one guy in the country on the mind control stuff. I think I probably am. And I definitely believe that was influenced by a guy named Dr. Jolyon West. Which-

Joe Rogan 49:41 Jolly West?

Chase Hughes 49:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:42 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 49:42 Yeah. Um, so, and, and it's not about skill. At th- at something like if you're doing something like this, it's not m- much about skill level. It's can you find a good target that's highly suggestible? And i- almost, you have some basic skills in this. I give you like three or four days worth of training in how to do covert hypnosis and all of this other stuff, and how to create amnesia in a person, so, where you can just, uh, tell them to forget something and they'll, and they'll willingly forget it. It's ... I could train you in three days how to do something like that. It's terrifying how our brains do not have a firewall, and the moment that our conscious filter, that filters like, "Is this information good for me? Should I accept this information?" If y- if I can bypass that filter, which is very easy to do, you can kind of just jam in whatever you want into somebody's head.

Joe Rogan 50:36 And so what evidence do we have that Sirhan Sirhan was working with Jolly West?

Chase Hughes 50:41 There's not a lot. It's a lot of anecdotal stuff, but he met with this guy regularly. And I'm not an expert on the case. I wouldn't, I wouldn't consider myself an expert. But he met with this guy at the shooting range on a regular basis, and this guy would talk to him privately, whisper in his ear in the shooting range. We all know this is, this is from testimony. And later, when he was arrested after the shooting happened, he said, "I thought I was at the shooting range. I thought I was shooting at a target, at a paper target." And he, he was on record saying this, and he has no memory of that actual event happening to this day. He went up for parole, I think a year or two ago, and man, all they did was ask him to kind of admit what you did and just say what you did, and he said, "I still have no memory of this event," and he had to stay in prison.

Joe Rogan 51:30 (laughs)

Chase Hughes 51:30 And RFK believes it too.

Joe Rogan 51:33 Wow.

Chase Hughes 51:35 And you've had RFK on.

Joe Rogan 51:36 Uh-huh. Um, so Sirhan Sirhan is meeting with this guy. Who is this guy?

Chase Hughes 51:42 Nobody really knows. Nobody fully knows, but the guy was involved and connected to Jolyon, and they called him Radioman. That's the only name that, that people have used to identify this guy. They-

Joe Rogan 51:57 And-

Chase Hughes 51:57 He met Sirhan at a range and expressed like, "We're both interested in shortwave radio stuff and all that kind of ham radio," and they connected over that initially, and then this guy somehow looped him into the situation he was in.

Joe Rogan 52:12 So the MKUltra stuff, um, a lot of it was experimental, right? They didn't necessarily have proof that a lot of what they were trying to do was effective. They knew that they could experiment with LSD on people, that was Operation Midnight Climax-

Chase Hughes 52:31 Oh, man.

Joe Rogan 52:31 ... where they took over the brothels, which is so wild. For people that don't know what this is, they took over brothels and they essentially had the prostitutes serve these johns LSD without their knowledge, and then they observed them through two-way mirrors.

Chase Hughes 52:45 Unbelievable.

Joe Rogan 52:45 And filmed them, yeah.

Chase Hughes 52:47 And filmed how they would act?

Joe Rogan 52:48 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 52:49 And-

Joe Rogan 52:49 So the CIA was running whorehouses. (laughs)

Chase Hughes 52:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:51 I don't even know if they got, they had sex, 'cause they probably dosed these guys up with so much acid they probably didn't want to.

Chase Hughes 52:57 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:57 But they observed them and they did it for years. They also ran the, um, Haight-Ashbury Free Clinic, which is wild, and, um, until, like, I think fairly recently, and there was a lot of hubbub about it after Tom O'Neill's book Chaos came out, and I think it was right after that they closed the Haight-Ashbury Free Clinic.

Chase Hughes 53:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:18 But the CIA was essentially a part of the Haight-Ashbury Free Clinic-

Chase Hughes 53:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:24 ... in the 1960s.

Chase Hughes 53:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:25 And that's where the Manson Family came out of.

Chase Hughes 53:29 Yeah. And I mean, there's a lot of people ... I don't, I'm not a researcher on this topic. I'm a researcher-

Joe Rogan 53:33 Neither am I.

Chase Hughes 53:33 ... on the techniques.

Joe Rogan 53:34 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 53:35 Um, but there's guys like, uh, Sidney Gottlieb was crazy. He was in, he was running the CIA. It was called OSS back then, uh, Office of Special Services. And it was crazy. They called him a cowboy, but they brought in all this LSD. There was a, uh, in Canada, uh, they were running, I think this was, man, Mon- I think it was in Montreal. I'm not ... No, it was in Toronto. Um, Montauk Institute, is that right?

Joe Rogan 54:02 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 54:03 Uh, where they-

Joe Rogan 54:03 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 54:03 They were doing things called psychic driving. They would keep people awake and, and it was like A Clockwork Orange, and their, they would hold their eyes open and just play these videos to kind of like, to, and train them, and, and really just drive their brains. And these were people that checked into the hospital with like postpartum depression, and they started doing this shit on them.

Joe Rogan 54:25 They just started experimenting on them.

Chase Hughes 54:27 Yeah, and it w- I mean, the Canadian government admitted it so much that they paid these people for damages.So, uh, just one woman's case that I can remember, I don't remember her name, but she went in for postpartum, I think, and she, she did this psychic driving. When she came out, she had no real memories anymore. She wet herself. She had to relearn how to walk and communicate socially. Uh, she had to relearn how to hold her pee in.

Joe Rogan 54:52 How long was she there for?

Chase Hughes 54:53 I think it was like a month and a half.

Joe Rogan 54:56 (laughs)

Chase Hughes 54:56 Unbelievable. But- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:00 I think back then, they were trying to find a bunch of different methods of mind control, right? Like, there's a very famous video from the 1950s of, uh, soldiers in the UK, where they dose them up with acid, and you see them wandering around the woods-

Chase Hughes 55:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:14 ... laughing and giggling and falling down.

Chase Hughes 55:16 Yeah. And we had just got those, th- the videos from the, the Korean War, where the, the Korean prisoners were making these videos like, "I realize now that America's a horrible country. I, I renounce everything. I hate America. This, these are all the bad things they've done." And the, the guys in the United States are watching this shit going, "Holy shit. They've got some secret technology and we're behind." So, it was like a psychological arms race.

Joe Rogan 55:39 Hmm.

Chase Hughes 55:40 (laughs) They just went berserk on this stuff. So, they've, they figured out or they figured that there's some kind of secret chemical or secret technique or recipe that these people are using that we haven't figured out yet. And it was, it was a madhouse race to figure out what was going on with these prisoners in North Korea. <|agent|><|en|>

Joe Rogan 56:00 What was going on? What were they doing with the prisoners?

Chase Hughes 56:02 Depriving them of sleep. It was super basic stuff. They were depriving them of sleep, treating them really well. This, this ... They're using these interrogation techniques that were developed by this German guy named Hans Scharff. And every interrogation system nowadays that's taught is a, is a derivative of Hans Scharff's work. And funny enough, he's the most famous interrogator in history. And he was like the first guy that said, "Hey, what if we're not assholes? What if we're not just total assholes to these people? And take them out on walks, maybe give them a sandwich every once in a while. And the whole time, pretend like we, every piece of intelligence they give us, we pretend like we already knew it." And that was kind of his, his premise, like let's not be a dick. And he, he got famous for that. So, everything is based on his work now. And funny enough ... You ever been to Disneyland?

Joe Rogan 56:49 Sure.

Chase Hughes 56:50 Do you ... You know the huge mosaic that you walk through? It's a huge, like, tile mosaic thing fr- at the very entrance of, of Disneyland.

Joe Rogan 56:57 I don't remo- recall it.

Chase Hughes 56:58 Yeah, it was-

Joe Rogan 56:58 I probably wasn't paying attention.

Chase Hughes 57:00 Yeah. Hans Scharff made that.

Joe Rogan 57:01 Oh, really?

Chase Hughes 57:02 By hand, yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:03 Whoa.

Chase Hughes 57:04 Weird.

Joe Rogan 57:04 How much time did that take?

Chase Hughes 57:06 I don't know.

Joe Rogan 57:06 How big is this thing?

Chase Hughes 57:07 It's huge.

Joe Rogan 57:07 See if you can find it, Jamie. How big is it?

Chase Hughes 57:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:11 He made it by hand?

Chase Hughes 57:12 Yeah, it's-

Joe Rogan 57:12 Is he on acid?

Chase Hughes 57:14 Had to be.

Joe Rogan 57:15 That thing, wow. It left a permanent mark on Disney, a former Nazi interrogator. (laughs) Fuck.

Chase Hughes 57:23 Is, is-

Joe Rogan 57:23 Like, as if Disney doesn't have enough problems with, uh, Walt Disney being linked to antisemitism. The fact that they actually have a Nazi artist.

Chase Hughes 57:33 If there was a competition wh- c- I said, "Joe, uh, give me a million dollars if you can figure out what this Nazi interrogator did on the side," then this was it.

Joe Rogan 57:40 Not a chance I'd come up with that. That's crazy.

Chase Hughes 57:43 And it's almost-

Joe Rogan 57:44 How bizarre.

Chase Hughes 57:45 Bz- Yeah, it's like a DMT kind of visual going on. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:51 Well, that's just weird in and of itself that he was working with these people. Like, how was Walt Disney connected to that guy?

Chase Hughes 57:58 No idea. Um, no clue.

Joe Rogan 58:01 That's not good. That doesn't do a lot to quell the rumors. You know?

Chase Hughes 58:06 I know, yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:07 So, these pe-

Chase Hughes 58:09 I think it was Paperclip.

Joe Rogan 58:11 So, these ... So, oh, Operation Paperclip.

Chase Hughes 58:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:13 So, these people that are atten- d- is it, is there documentation that shows the effectiveness of certain techniques? Like, do we have any of their work? Like, the Jolly West, does, did he publish any things or did he make rev- like, leave behind documents explaining what worked and what didn't work?

Chase Hughes 58:34 Yeah, some. Uh, but, you know, this guy named, uh, I don't remember his first name, Church, got really pissed off at all the CIA stuff and-

Joe Rogan 58:42 It was the Church Committee.

Chase Hughes 58:42 ... launched ... Church Committee.

Joe Rogan 58:43 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 58:43 He said, "We're gonna get it all." And then the CIA launched a destruction order and said, "We need to destroy ..." It was like Enron at the CIA then. There was papers getting shredded and all this stuff, and-

Joe Rogan 58:52 Oh.

Chase Hughes 58:53 And some of the documents survived the destruction order because they were in a dude's attic. Yeah. It, this guy's na- He was a professor in New York at Colgate University, and his name was Dr. George Estabrooks. And not many people talk about him, uh, but he was big into it. Him and Edgar Hoover had a plan to hypnotize a German submarine captain, split his personality, which is not hard to do, um, and send him back home and have him torpedo his entire fleet inside of his own harbor.

Joe Rogan 59:27 (laughs)

Chase Hughes 59:29 Um, and I have all of those documents.

Joe Rogan 59:33 So, these professors and these scientists were working with the CIA while they were developing MKUltra, so they probably thought they were doing it for national security purposes.

Chase Hughes 59:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:44 And so they were probably saying, "Look, North Korea is doing this. Germany's doing ... All these countries are doing this. We need to do this as well."

Chase Hughes 59:52 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, they were at the, they were at the bottom of Maslow's pyramid. "Do, we'll do anything."

Joe Rogan 59:56 Right.

Chase Hughes 59:56 Like, "Some ... Our country's going to go down."

Joe Rogan 59:58 Did you read Chaos, the Tom O'Neill book?

Chase Hughes 1:00:00 No.

Joe Rogan 1:00:01 It's about the Manson family, how they did it with the Manson family. It's, uh, essentially, I mean, he, he lays out a very compelling, uh, case for the CIA not only training Manson, but supplying him with LSD and then getting him out of jail every time he got caught.

Chase Hughes 1:00:18 Wow.

Joe Rogan 1:00:18 And that it was done to change the perception of the antiwar movement. Like, the hippies were peace, love, and psychedelic music, and, you know, people were dropping out of society. And instead, the narrative now became, "No, they are murderers and psychopaths, and they're gonna kill beautiful actresses and people in Hollywood."

Chase Hughes 1:00:39 So, they thought he would be like the vaccine for Timothy Leary and, and all those people.

Joe Rogan 1:00:43 Yes. Yeah, yeah, it's a good way to put it. Yeah, that, um, they took this guy who was a con man and had sort of a, a proclivity towards, you know, influencing people and being char- charismatic and ... You ever heard his music?

Chase Hughes 1:00:57 No, I didn't know he did music.

Joe Rogan 1:00:59 Yeah, I mean, he's- he actually recorded with, uh, Brian Wilson of The Beach Boys. And, um, I think Brian Wilson and him, there was like a real problem because his career didn't take off, and like he threatened him. It cam- it became very, like very problematic, his relationship with Brian Wilson. But he g- there's a song, so you can find the song (laughs) if you listen to it a little bit. The Manson... Can we play this? Does someone own this? How's that work?

Guest 1:01:26 Well, that was some- something I've hadn't, we hadn't talked... Guns N' Roses covered one of his songs. Did you know that?

Joe Rogan 1:01:30 Oh yeah, yeah. We talked about that, I think we did.

Guest 1:01:32 Oh, did we?

Joe Rogan 1:01:32 Yeah. Yeah, um, but he recorded some songs. And, you know, they're not that bad.

Guest 1:01:40 Time for living.

Chase Hughes 1:01:44 Is that him singing?

Joe Rogan 1:01:45 Yeah.

Guest 1:01:45 Time keeps on flying. Think you're loving baby and all you do is crying. Can't you see...

Chase Hughes 1:01:56 That's not bad.

Joe Rogan 1:01:57 It's not bad.

Chase Hughes 1:01:58 Yeah, it's decent.

Joe Rogan 1:01:59 It's not bad. It- it's like, it's an okay shitty song from the '60s.

Chase Hughes 1:02:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:03 You know? It's not something you want to put on your Spotify playlist, but it's, uh, it's not bad.

Chase Hughes 1:02:08 It's better than a third of guys that play at the bar or something.

Joe Rogan 1:02:11 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 1:02:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:12 Yeah, it's better than a third of the guys on 6th Street in Austin, Texas. (laughs)

Chase Hughes 1:02:16 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:18 It's not bad. I mean, he was a charismatic person, right? And that's what you need to run a cult, and that's what you need to be a good rock star.

Chase Hughes 1:02:25 And a lot of psychedelics.

Joe Rogan 1:02:26 Yeah, and he apparently wouldn't take them. He would give them to people and pretend to take them, and then he would use these methods to manipulate them while they were under. So like, he's sober and he's going through this CIA textbook of how to manipulate and control these people.

Chase Hughes 1:02:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:42 And then he gets these people like Tex Watson and, you know, Squeaky Fromme, and all these fucking psychopaths. And he, through this sort of indoctrination and bringing them into the family and, you know, they're staying with him for so... And then he's committing murders and crimes, and, and he keeps getting out. He gets arrested and they let him out. And the sheriffs that let him out, they all have the same explanation, "I was told it was above my pay grade," and they just let him out. So the guy's violating parole and he's getting out, like multiple times.

Chase Hughes 1:03:14 My God, I didn't know this.

Joe Rogan 1:03:14 Like it's very compelling. Yeah, and there's a real compelling case for Jolly West. First of all, there's anecdotal evidence. Jolly- Jolly West visited him in jail, um, and they think that that's when it all started.

Chase Hughes 1:03:29 Wow.

Joe Rogan 1:03:30 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 1:03:30 I don't doubt any of that.

Joe Rogan 1:03:31 Well, it makes sense, because like that's a really successful cult. Like in, as far as like, uh, the historical footprint. You know, like everybody knows about the Manson Family. I mean like-

Chase Hughes 1:03:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:41 ... that worked. That scared the shit out of everybody. It was weird. Like, "Oh my God, what if your children join the Manson Family?"

Chase Hughes 1:03:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:47 "Oh my God, my kids are vulnerable. What if they wanna be peace, love, and flower children and they get wrapped up in the family?" And that's, it just sort of changed the tone in society, um, with people. And it was also at the same time when they passed that sweeping Schedule 1 Psychedelics Act-

Chase Hughes 1:04:04 Oh my God.

Joe Rogan 1:04:04 ... where they made everything illegal. It was all around the same time.

Chase Hughes 1:04:06 And art goes to zero.

Joe Rogan 1:04:08 Yeah, art goes-

Chase Hughes 1:04:08 Like all art-

Joe Rogan 1:04:09 ... into the toilet. (laughs)

Chase Hughes 1:04:10 ... starts disappearing. Architecture. Music.

Joe Rogan 1:04:13 A lot of things went south. Yeah, car design. But the, um, the fact that there's real compelling evidence that this was the government, and that this was the government's response to this immense cultural change that took place between 1950 and 1960. And it's not like just guessing. It's like there's real programs that they were involved in that were absolutely doing that kind of work.

Chase Hughes 1:04:36 100%.

Joe Rogan 1:04:37 Yeah, and that's really crazy to think of.

Chase Hughes 1:04:40 And I... And it, it gets deeper. Like there, there are step-by-step programs they have for creating a Manchurian candidate.

Joe Rogan 1:04:48 Okay, like what's step one? How do you know when you can get a guy to be a Manchurian candidate? Can you do anybody, or do you have to get a vulnerable guy? Do you have to get a guy-

Chase Hughes 1:04:55 I don't want to say everything.

Joe Rogan 1:04:56 ... with family? You don't want to say everything?

Chase Hughes 1:04:56 I think some of this could be misused. But let me-

Joe Rogan 1:05:00 Well, I don't know if you know about Grok, but Grok's out there misusing information. So...

Chase Hughes 1:05:05 All right, yeah, I'll just put it out there.

Joe Rogan 1:05:06 He can get anything from that.

Chase Hughes 1:05:07 So like you're a very social guy.

Joe Rogan 1:05:09 Okay.

Chase Hughes 1:05:10 And you've got lines in your forehead here from raising your eyebrows a lot. There's people that are your age that are not very socially connected to people that have the smooth foreheads.

Joe Rogan 1:05:19 Oh, interesting.

Chase Hughes 1:05:20 So if you're smiling a lot your whole life, you're gonna develop these little crow's feet, and you'll do it by the age of 19. If you're a social, happy person, you'll see the crow's feet. If you're angry all the time, you're gonna see this little muscle right here, the glabella-

Joe Rogan 1:05:31 Oh, I got that thing.

Chase Hughes 1:05:32 ... start to... Yeah, but yours, yeah, yours is not that pronounced. But whatever emotion we experience on a very, very regular basis etches itself onto the face, as a rule of thumb. Not saying that this is science, it's, it's not. This is my observation. There's no study that I can-

Joe Rogan 1:05:49 Got it.

Chase Hughes 1:05:49 ... send you. But we can see that. I mean, you can see somebody who's lived a super happy life. You know, they're, they have these little smile lines around their eyes.

Joe Rogan 1:05:57 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 1:05:57 Somebody who's raising their eyebrows a lot. This is our social, our forehead is a social billboard.

Joe Rogan 1:06:01 Right.

Chase Hughes 1:06:02 So you're gonna see those lines start coming on the face. But what if I told you to make a skeptical facial expression?

Joe Rogan 1:06:09 Hmm. Well, I would do-

Chase Hughes 1:06:10 What would you do?

Joe Rogan 1:06:11 If you asked me to be skeptical?

Chase Hughes 1:06:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:13 This is my skeptic face.

Chase Hughes 1:06:15 Okay. So like somebody's trying to feed you something. Most people will kind of, these lower eyelids are gonna tighten up. They do that the first time you do that.

Joe Rogan 1:06:22 I might do that too.

Chase Hughes 1:06:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:22 I might do that.

Chase Hughes 1:06:23 So you're like, "Uh."

Joe Rogan 1:06:24 Most of the time though, I'm like, "What?"

Chase Hughes 1:06:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:26 It's my what bitch face. What bitch?

Chase Hughes 1:06:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:29 What? (laughs)

Chase Hughes 1:06:32 (laughs) If I have somebody who's been, who is not skeptical ever in their life, they have the smoothest lower eyelids in the world.

Joe Rogan 1:06:41 Huh.

Chase Hughes 1:06:41 So to test this out, and this is not, this is anecdotal.

Joe Rogan 1:06:44 Okay.

Chase Hughes 1:06:44 But I gave it to five guys who are stage hypnotists. They're out in these comedy clubs-

Joe Rogan 1:06:50 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 1:06:50 ... every night knocking people out and all that stuff.

Joe Rogan 1:06:53 Right.

Chase Hughes 1:06:53 And I told them, "Test this theory over the course of five years." They all said it's 100% accurate. 'Cause you know like bring, they bring people up and if some guy doesn't go all the way in, his hands are-

Joe Rogan 1:07:02 Right, right, right.

Chase Hughes 1:07:02 ... stuck together. And he's like, "All right, sir. Thanks, thanks for coming. Go back to your seat."

Joe Rogan 1:07:06 We should explain what we're talking about.... there's, um, comedy hypnotists. And, um, if you don't know, and if you haven't seen it, you would think it's bullshit. But, uh, I was very fortunate when I was 21, when I worked in Boston, there was a guy who was really good at it. He was an actual hypnotist. Name was Frank Santos. And he did this show, this comedy hypnotism show. I think it was every Monday night at, uh, Stitches Comedy Club, and it was insane. He would have people go on stage. They thought they were having sex with Madonna. They thought they were in a rowboat, like, and the-

Chase Hughes 1:07:34 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:07:34 ... rowboat was gonna tip over. It was ... Th- then they had a dance, you know? They, they had a dance. And if they, they danced the best, they, they thought they were gonna win a million dollars. And e- it was weird.

Chase Hughes 1:07:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:43 It was weird to watch, because ... And he could tell when someone was under and someone wasn't under, and it was weird. It was weird to watch, because he ... It was ... I never believed in that. I was like, "Well, I guess you have to be a dope." Like, maybe you just have to be a dope, and that's the kind of people that he picks. He just finds the dumb people. But a lot of the people I talked to afterwards, I was like, "What happened?" And they're like, "I don't know. It's just like, he's snapping his fingers, and next thing you know, I'm fucking dancing."

Chase Hughes 1:08:09 Or banging a doctor.

Joe Rogan 1:08:09 It was the weirdest thing I've e- yeah, weirdest thing I've ever experienced in my life.

Chase Hughes 1:08:13 So I'm a hypnotist, uh, certified hypnotist, and, uh, I've, I've learned it just because of my brain obsession. And I didn't believe in it either. I had, I had zero belief that it was real. And I went to my first comedy hypnosis show like five years ago. This guy's name is Rich Guzzie. And it's, it's real. Like, I saw this, I'm like, "Oh my God, these people aren't just like performing."

Joe Rogan 1:08:34 Oh, it's definitely real.

Chase Hughes 1:08:35 And so if ... Um, damn, what were we talking about?

Joe Rogan 1:08:40 Um, hypnosis.

Chase Hughes 1:08:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:42 Um, we were talking about ... So the suggestible.

Chase Hughes 1:08:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:45 Suggestible people, like how do you pick someone to be a Manchurian candidate? Can you pick anybody?

Chase Hughes 1:08:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:52 Or does it have to be a person that has, like, something off about them?

Chase Hughes 1:08:56 They would ... Uh, th- I don't think they have to have something that's off. You can pick a totally healthy person that's very highly suggestible. So I have a, a TV show coming out that's fiction, fiction. And the bad guy in the book gets access to some of these techniques, and he doesn't know how to ... They're, they're not working. So he goes to these comedy hypnosis shows, and he just picks people that were called up on stage, because he-

Joe Rogan 1:09:21 (laughs)

Chase Hughes 1:09:22 And he wrecks their lives.

Joe Rogan 1:09:23 Pre-select.

Chase Hughes 1:09:24 Wrecks. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:25 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 1:09:25 So he gets someone else to figure out who's suggestible.

Joe Rogan 1:09:26 Oh, that's smart.

Chase Hughes 1:09:28 So, and those people are highly suggestible, and they're always more open to f- fun. They're always better ... You know, they're, they live in front of their eyes a lot more.

Joe Rogan 1:09:35 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 1:09:36 And so suggestibility doesn't mean stupid. It means that you're more, just more open to the things that are around you.

Joe Rogan 1:09:42 Right.

Chase Hughes 1:09:42 And they're typically happier people. Um-

Joe Rogan 1:09:44 More suggestible people are typically happier people. That's interesting. Because they're just blissfully unaware?

Chase Hughes 1:09:51 Yeah. I mean, it depends on if they're suggestible and addicted to, like, Instagram, horrifying stuff on Instagram, and they're watching it all the time.

Joe Rogan 1:10:00 Oh.

Chase Hughes 1:10:00 So they can get programmed easily for all these things. So this guy, George Estabrooks, makes this formula to split the personality of an army officer, and they called him, uh, Smith. And they're gonna split this guy, give his alter ego a bunch of secrets to take across enemy lines, and then deliver these secrets, they're, that are in his head, to this person that's on the other side of this thing. And in this paper, it's a hypothetical. It's written as a hypothetical. So they, they're, they're gonna split this guy, with the goal being, he gets captured, somebody tortures him, they put a drill in his knee or something. This other personality won't come out, because there's a, there's a secret word and an anchor. Like, they'll squeeze his arm and say, "Moonlight," or something like that, and it'll turn this other guy on.

Joe Rogan 1:10:49 Is that really possible?

Chase Hughes 1:10:50 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:10:50 To have like a partition in your brain where you keep other memories?

Chase Hughes 1:10:54 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 1:10:55 Really?

Chase Hughes 1:10:55 Yeah. It's not a partition. I mean, there's no physical modification-

Joe Rogan 1:11:00 Well, of course. Of course.

Chase Hughes 1:11:01 ... that's happening.

Joe Rogan 1:11:02 But I mean like a partition.

Chase Hughes 1:11:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:03 Like there's something ... There's another you in there.

Chase Hughes 1:11:06 Yeah. And I, and I'll tell you something scary when it comes to multiple personality stuff. If, uh, a, a suggesti- a slightly suggestible, not even high, slightly suggestible person goes to a psychiatrist, and let's say I wanted to split somebody. I could make up a piece of paper that's got 10 questions on it. It's like, "Do you ever feel like you're at, at war with yourself?" Like, one person wants to eat cake, and the other one wants to eat, uh, broccoli. That's 100% ... That's everybody.

Joe Rogan 1:11:32 Right.

Chase Hughes 1:11:33 And then the n- next one is, "Do you ever feel like you're arguing with yourself about whether or not you should relax or worry about something?" That's everybody. But it has a lot of these questions that talked about you having different parts. And then the psychiatrist takes this exam, and he says, "You know what? I'm looki- looking at all these numbers, and you scored in the 99th percentile for mul- multiple personality disorder. Have you ever felt like you're at war with a part of yourself?" That's everybody. But now he says, like, "Well, what, what does that part want? If I could just talk to that part directly." So now he starts having a conversation with this part. And now, then he says, "Well, it's not really nice for us to do that. Why don't we make a name for this part?" They're almost done. That's almost the full creation. So that's called a ... Th- they researched this in the '70s. It's called i- iatrogenic creation of dissociative identities.

Joe Rogan 1:12:24 So if they wanted to do this and create a Manchurian candidate, uh, there, there has to be, like, some proof that this is effective, right? So how would they, how would they ch- ... Before they send someone out to do some assassination or something, how would they know that they got this guy on the program?

Chase Hughes 1:12:43 Well, they tested it with hundreds of people first. And they, they would all use colors. So like, Mrs. White was a subject, or Mrs. Red, whatever. And they would hypnotize a woman while, while she's ... And then, you know, split all this personality stuff and, m- develop that partition. And then with her eyes open in one personality, she witnesses a, what she thinks is a real bomb getting put into a briefcase with a little timer thing on it, like an old movie dynamite thing that you'd see in a cartoon or something like that.

Joe Rogan 1:13:12 Okay.

Chase Hughes 1:13:13 Put into a briefcase.... zip that thing up, and she's holding it and they're telling her it's gonna explode, and then they change her personality to the other one, and she's on heart rate monitors and all this other stuff. And they- they- and this is a CIA document they released, and she's called Mrs. White in- in this document. There's many, many more. But the other personality's job is to not look in the briefcase 'cause that personality doesn't know what's in it, and sit in this waiting room with this briefcase beside you. Heart rate doesn't go up. And then another time, they give somebody wh- they watch a gun being loaded, they split the personality and like s- do some kind of sleight of hand to unload the firearm, and then they're told to like pull this firearm out and go shoot this person in the face. And wha- when the trigger is given to you, like a guy tapping his pencil or something, and they do it.

Joe Rogan 1:14:04 And this is just hypnosis that caused them? They're not using any psychedelic drugs or psychotropic medicine or-

Chase Hughes 1:14:09 You don't need it.

Joe Rogan 1:14:10 Nothing?

Chase Hughes 1:14:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:12 Wow.

Chase Hughes 1:14:13 It's so- it's- it's easier than you think.

Joe Rogan 1:14:16 For some people, right?

Chase Hughes 1:14:18 High authority on one end, fr- of-

Joe Rogan 1:14:21 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 1:14:21 ... the person doing the program, and high suggestibility on the other, then your skills don't need to be that good. You don't need to manufacture suggestibility. If you- if they say, "Here's this guy. I need to split this guy and he's not very suggestible," then your skills have to be high. But if I have high suggestibility in the target, high authority in the person doing the programming, I have ultimate results. And- and it's not just this. If I'm- if I'm a psychiatrist and I have high authority and I have a highly suggestible client, I can- I can change their life for the better with the exact same things.

Joe Rogan 1:14:52 Interesting.

Chase Hughes 1:14:52 So it's not just Manchurian stuff. It's- it's anybody trying to change another person needs that level of authority, and what I need to- my goal as a doctor, psychiatrist, coach, whatever, is to raise that person's suggestibility so that my suggestions can change their life.

Joe Rogan 1:15:07 Will you then let them be aware of what you did and how you did it and what the pathway is?

Chase Hughes 1:15:14 Uh, if it's- if I'm helping someone?

Joe Rogan 1:15:15 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 1:15:16 Absolutely. Yeah. So-

Joe Rogan 1:15:18 That's gotta be a mind fuck for them.

Chase Hughes 1:15:20 You know Roy Jones?

Joe Rogan 1:15:21 Jr.?

Chase Hughes 1:15:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:15:21 The boxer?

Chase Hughes 1:15:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:15:22 Of course. Yeah.

Chase Hughes 1:15:22 He's a friend of mine.

Joe Rogan 1:15:23 Oh.

Chase Hughes 1:15:24 And-

Joe Rogan 1:15:24 I love that dude.

Chase Hughes 1:15:25 Yeah. Me too. Um, and man, he's been through a rough year. I don't know if you've heard or anything.

Joe Rogan 1:15:31 No.

Chase Hughes 1:15:31 He's been through a lot this year.

Joe Rogan 1:15:32 What- what happened?

Chase Hughes 1:15:33 He lost his son.

Joe Rogan 1:15:34 Oh, I didn't know that at all.

Chase Hughes 1:15:35 Yeah, I think it was- yeah, I think he was 21. Um-

Joe Rogan 1:15:37 Oh, that's terrible.

Chase Hughes 1:15:39 But Roy called me one day. I went down there to train Roy at Roy's house, and he calls me one day and he's like, "Hey man, can you do this split personality thing on a fighter?" And I was like, "Oh, yeah." And as I'm t- telling him yeah, I was like, "I've never done this." I- I didn't know if I could, but I was