Joe Rogan Experience #2288 - Jacques Vallée

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drum music) Joe Rogan podcast,…

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drum music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. JVJacques Vallée0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) What up, sir? Very good to see you.

   4. JVJacques Vallée0:15

      Good to see you.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      I really enjoyed our conversation last night. We all went out to dinner and Hal Puthoff blew my mind.

   6. JVJacques Vallée0:23

      I, as you know, I've known him for a long time. Uh...

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:26

      Yeah, when did you meet him? What year?

   8. JVJacques Vallée0:28

      Uh, I knew him at SRI. Actually I was at Stanford Research Institute before him, um, uh, in one of the very early internet research teams when, uh, there was no internet. It was called the ARPANET. It was a-

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:44

      Wow.

   10. JVJacques Vallée0:44

       ... a network of the advanced research project agency and it was all, you know, computer experiment and so on. It turned into... We had, um, engine number three on the internet at, at SRI.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:58

       Wow.

   12. JVJacques Vallée0:58

       In California.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:00

       Engine number three-

   14. JVJacques Vallée1:00

       So it was part of the-

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:01

       ... on the ARPANET.

   16. JVJacques Vallée1:02

       By the time I joined them, there were like 30 machines already, so, uh, and it was exciting and then, um, you know, uh, Dr. Puthoff and Russell Targ came in with a proposal to SRI to do, uh, parapsychology research at SRI, which had never been done. And it was funny because the... So I was already there, you know, in, in a team.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:30

       What year was this?

   18. JVJacques Vallée1:32

       Hm?

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:32

       What year?

   20. JVJacques Vallée1:34

       Oh, God. Um, uh, '74.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:42

       Wow.

   22. JVJacques Vallée1:42

       '73... Yeah. '74, '74.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:44

       So the ARPANET was around '74?

   24. JVJacques Vallée1:46

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:47

       Wow.

   26. JVJacques Vallée1:47

       And, um, the... It was funny because I was in, in my office and the vice president of SRI came in, uh, closed the door, and said, um, "Jacques, uh, you know, you've published some things, uh, controversial under your name on UFOs. Um, and, uh, you haven't lost your scientific reputation which is why you're here working for us at SRI, uh, on, on the ARPANET. But, um, you know, there's a proposal from, uh, Dr. Puthoff and Dr. Targ to do parapsychology research here and we've never done that." And I said, "Well, you know, it's, it's a very valid... I, I think it's a very valid area of research. We should, you know... We're in the kind of institution that should do that." He said, "Well, let me, let me draw something on your whiteboard." And he drew a scale, a horizontal scale. And on, on one side there was a, a, a little square. He said, "This is the most we can expect in terms of funding for research in parapsychology. You know, it's maybe at most a million a year, okay? And here is what I manage, you know, in this division." He drew a huge cube, you know, it said $150 million. "Should we jeopardize the research we do for Xerox and IBM and AT&T and Bank of America and so on, just to do some research on, you know, uh, uh, psychic things?" And I said, "Well, um, you know, the, the re- the reason we, we get all this money from DOD and Bank of America and so on, is that we do the research that they can't do themselves. We do, we do the... You know, we go out and we take risk, and, uh, I think we should, uh, take the same risk with, uh, uh, with Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ because this could be very big. You know, there is a lot of literature on this already and we can bring science into it, and they can bring the science into it, you know?" And he said, um, "Well, there is a meeting of the board of directors of SRI, you know, in two days, and most of them are against it. What do I tell them?" And I said, "Well, I can, you know, I can write up the, the reasons why in science you have to take chances and this is science. I mean, this isn't just engineering." And he said, uh, "Well, um, give me a memo by, by tomorrow at 12:00." So I went home and I, I wrote a two-page memo, which was confidential, I don't, don't think anybody has seen it, for the, for the board, explaining why there was scientific evidence, you know, enough of it so that good research could be done and, uh, I, I, you know... Obviously that, that may have helped in, uh, getting, getting the approval for them to come in. And then after the first year, you know, they were there because, uh, you know, the, the, the money kept coming and the results can... you know, good scientific results came, c- came in, came out of it.

   27. JRJoe Rogan5:28

       So when you say parapsychology, specifically what were you attempting to study?

   28. JVJacques Vallée5:33

       So most of parapsychology, you know, as the name indicates, has been studied by psychologists. You know, people who have experiences and they relate their experiences, and they have strange dreams, they have all that. And, uh, and then th- that has been structured by, you know, people doing experiments and... For example, you know, trying to move objects with your mind, uh, trying to, of course, uh, send messages-... psychically to other people, and, uh, or guessing what's written in a, a closed envelope and so on, that kind of thing. And, uh, but, uh, uh, again, those were done by good experimentalists, but it wasn't... Where is the physics of it? I mean, you know, because in physics, you know, those things are not, not supposed to happen (laughs) .

   29. JRJoe Rogan6:28

       Without an understanding of a sense that perhaps we're not quite aware of.

   30. JVJacques Vallée6:33

       That's right. And that, uh, you know, our physics has been dealing with objects and with atoms and all that. But it's, it's clear in modern physics that there are other things and that the theories we have about the, the different fields in the universe are in conflict with each other, in our relativity and quantum mechanics are in conflict. And-
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   (laughs) …

   1. JVJacques Vallée15:00

      And one of the people that they brought in was Ingo Swann, who was an, an artist from New York. He was very uncomfortable with California. The sky is always blue, you know, it's boring and so on.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:13

      (laughs)

   3. JVJacques Vallée15:13

      And he, he liked New York. He liked the, the, the animation of the city and his friends and so on. But, uh, I knew, of course, of, of him. I had read some of the things he... So when he came to SRI, he, he told me, um, that, you know, uh, remote viewing is one thing, or parapsychology, but it should be applied to science and also, you know, it, it had to be applied to, um, intelligence in the sense of, you know, the, the, the intelligence agencies were funding SRI to do this, okay?

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:53

      Hmm.

   5. JVJacques Vallée15:54

      Uh, the three-letter, you know, agencies. There were a number of them who were very interested, uh, because they knew that gift existed, you know, in pilots and in n- number of people. And-

   6. JRJoe Rogan16:06

      And so they were trying to figure out a way to utilize this for military applications?

   7. JVJacques Vallée16:10

      Um, mostly to look at developments in the Soviet Union at that point.

   8. JRJoe Rogan16:15

      Oh, so they were trying-

   9. JVJacques Vallée16:16

      But, but also, you know, lost spacecraft. They found this lost spacecraft in the middle of a jungle in Africa and so on by-

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:25

       Lost spacecraft?

   11. JVJacques Vallée16:25

       ... by parapsychology.

   12. JRJoe Rogan16:26

       Whose spacecraft? Ours?

   13. JVJacques Vallée16:28

       Um, n- no. It was Russian.

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:31

       Uh, they, so they found it through, like, remote viewing?

   15. JVJacques Vallée16:35

       Yes.

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:36

       Really?

   17. JVJacques Vallée16:36

       So, uh, when, um, uh, uh, so Ingo was starting to go around the labs at SRI. He wanted to, he was... He had never been in a scientific institution where it's full of computers and gadgets and measuring instruments and everything else. So he wanted to know... uh, uh, he saw that as the next domain where parapsychology could be applied in a straight, scientific, rational way. So he wa- I was one of the people that he wanted to talk to. And I, I, I told him, "Do, do you know how a computer finds data?" You know, you have a computer, a machine full of, you know, chips. How does it deal with the real world? And he said, "I have no idea. I mean, I've never looked inside a computer." And I said, "Well, there's three ways. You know, as a programmer, I can declare, uh, uh, a variable. I can say X is always going to be 3.14, okay? Or pi. Uh, but in many cases, I can give you the address of the place where I've put the data that is going to be different. The address is going to be the same, but the data is going to change every time. So, but I can give you the address. It's, uh, 23-14. 23-14 is where I'm going to put, you know, the age of the patient."... okay? But it's going to be different with every patient. So that's, uh, dir- direct a- addressing, uh, that I can also put in that location, I can put the address of somewhere else, which I'm going to compute in my program and that's indirect addressing. And then there is a rest of the world, which is too big to put inside a machine and the machine has a memory, maybe very big, but it's still limited. So it's going to go get the information from some memory device somewhere else, you know, maybe the World Bank and, uh, or the Library of Congress. And there, I cannot give you the address, but I can give you, um, a, a sort of imaginary process by which you can derive the address when you get there and bring it into the memory of your computer and then work with it. And, um, he said, "You know, that's it. That's, that's what I need." And then he came up with the, the, the idea of coordinate remote viewing out of that conversation I had with him, okay? So that was my contribution to the, the actual project at the beginning and then he thought the... as an address, he was going to take coordinates, longitude and latitude, because they were... we were going to look at... they were going to... I wasn't officially part of the, uh, but I was, you know, I had passed the qualifications to be at SRI in a Department of Defense project. So I, I, I was one of the good guys. So we, uh, we had many conversation with coffee and so on in the lab with, uh, with Ingo and later with Uri Geller that were absolutely fascinating to me, so I, I tried to... In some cases, I, they, they needed to talk to someone who knew technology and was interested in this even though I wasn't, you know, uh, uh, on the project itself. But somebody who was inside, you know, so that they didn't... the information didn't get, get out into the real world until they were ready to actually publish it, because everybody wanted to kill their project. I mean, there were so many skeptics saying, you know, "This can't work. They are making it up." Uh-

   18. JRJoe Rogan20:49

       Right.

   19. JVJacques Vallée20:49

       They are fooled by a prestidigitator. You know, Uri Geller is a magician and all those things.

   20. JRJoe Rogan20:55

       Right, right.

   21. JVJacques Vallée20:55

       Well, he is a magician. (laughs) But, but he's also, you know, a, a, an extraordinary psychic.

   22. JRJoe Rogan21:03

       So, so could you explain, um, so they're looking for this Russian spacecraft, so w- how do they... what's the environment in which they remote view? How do they set this up?

   23. JVJacques Vallée21:15

       So, um, Ingo, um, after the project was pretty much over, there, there was some continuous studies and Ingo brought me back to work with him, uh, because he wanted to write a book, uh, that would be a synthesis of his methodology, you know, to answer your question-

   24. JRJoe Rogan21:41

       Okay.

   25. JVJacques Vallée21:41

       ... of how do you do this. And he had a very structured way of, of, um, of doing that with a number of, of... Uh, what he wanted to do was train people to do that, hopefully to his level, okay? Um, so it was step-by-step, so there was a first... Y- you had a pad of paper, you know, and a pen, and he was sitting at the end there. The table was about like this, you know, except there was nothing on it and in a, a room that had nothing on the walls, no windows. There was a chair here and a chair there, so he was away from me. I couldn't see what he was reading. He had a stack of targets that were places on the Earth and, I mean, obviously, the, the idea was to look at what was going on in, you know, Vladivostok or in, you know, some cor-

   26. JRJoe Rogan22:39

       When you say a stack of targets, can, can you explain, like is it a map? Is he... is it just coordinates?

   27. JVJacques Vallée22:45

       It was just coordinates.

   28. JRJoe Rogan22:46

       Just numbers?

   29. JVJacques Vallée22:47

       He had gotten the maps and those were test things from, you know, uh, geographic features on the Earth, cities, mountains...

   30. JRJoe Rogan22:57

       Mm-hmm. Got it.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Whoa. …

   1. JVJacques Vallée30:00

      the submarine, he described the, the length and the, you know, he actually-... measured it psychically and that turned out to be right.

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:09

      Whoa.

   3. JVJacques Vallée30:09

      And then when the submarine was built, they brought some bulldozers and they dug (laughs) , you know, a channel to the sea and off it went.

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:18

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   5. JVJacques Vallée31:45

      So I-

   6. JRJoe Rogan31:46

      I had heard about this.

   7. JVJacques Vallée31:46

      ... I mean, tho- those things were extraordinary and, uh-

   8. JRJoe Rogan31:49

      Yeah. I had heard about this, but I didn't know it was that accurate.

   9. JVJacques Vallée31:54

      Y- yeah. That, that happened. And he was, um, a- as opposed to, uh, you know, one of us, he was, uh, he was right, you know, enough of the time that you could rely on what he was describing. And also, they came up with a way of measuring, actually quantifying the value of your perception, you know. So I- I- I told Ingo-

   10. JRJoe Rogan32:21

       How could they do that?

   11. JVJacques Vallée32:21

       ... you know, "Let's do another one," because I'm on a roll here, you know-

   12. JRJoe Rogan32:25

       Yeah. (laughs)

   13. JVJacques Vallée32:25

       ... after the speak in the end is he said, "No, Jacques, you know, you're going home now." I said, "Well, it's nine o'clock. You know, we've only been here half an hour. Why are you sending me home? I mean, this is great." You know, "I- I got it."

   14. JRJoe Rogan32:40

       Right.

   15. JVJacques Vallée32:40

       He said, "Yeah, you got it. You- y- you don't need all the levels. I mean, you got to the top level. You were there." Uh...

   16. JRJoe Rogan32:48

       Why did he want to send you home?

   17. JVJacques Vallée32:50

       Uh, he said, "I want you to stay with that feeling. I don't want to do another one that you'd miss."

   18. JRJoe Rogan32:57

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JVJacques Vallée32:57

       "So, and I- I want you to keep that in mind because you got the whole thing."

   20. JRJoe Rogan33:02

       Is this based on past experiments and the way they were achieve- achieving results?

   21. JVJacques Vallée33:08

       Y- yes.

   22. JRJoe Rogan33:08

       So he didn't want to bombard you with it.

   23. JVJacques Vallée33:09

       They were grading every, you know, every test subject and-

   24. JRJoe Rogan33:13

       Right.

   25. JVJacques Vallée33:13

       ... so on and...

   26. JRJoe Rogan33:13

       So he didn't want to give you another experience. He wanted you to take that experience and just-

   27. JVJacques Vallée33:18

       And-

   28. JRJoe Rogan33:18

       ... sit with it.

   29. JVJacques Vallée33:18

       ... and- uh, keep the experience with me-

   30. JRJoe Rogan33:20

       Yes.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Yeah. …

   1. JVJacques Vallée45:00

      have to-

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:00

      Yeah.

   3. JVJacques Vallée45:00

      ... get the ego out of the way.

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:02

      Right.

   5. JVJacques Vallée45:02

      And, of course, that's the hardest thing, you know, for, for us to do.

   6. JRJoe Rogan45:06

      Especially to a narcissist dictator who's on drugs.

   7. JVJacques Vallée45:09

      That's right. (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan45:11

      (laughs) Yeah.

   9. JVJacques Vallée45:13

      That's right. That's right.

   10. JRJoe Rogan45:13

       Well, that, that's the always, the age-old problem with seers. Like, how do you know who's a charlatan and who's real? Because there's always a bunch of fake psychics. There's fake palm readers, fake tarot card readers, people that are just con artists, that are just trying to swindle people out of money. But that doesn't discount the possibility that some people have these bizarre abilities. And that is something that people have sort of recognized forever, but it's always been dismissed, especially in this modern-day reductionist culture that likes to only look at things that are, you know, tried, true, proven, agreed upon, you know, and then trust the science. Like, this, this concept that-

   11. JVJacques Vallée46:00

       Well, I think, as... You know, uh, in science, I mean, the burden is on you as a scientist to come up with an experiment that will discriminate between the random things-

   12. JRJoe Rogan46:13

       Right.

   13. JVJacques Vallée46:13

       ... and, and, you know, will give you, will give you s- guides to, you know-

   14. JRJoe Rogan46:19

       But I think that's what they've done with The Telepathy Tapes, and I'm hoping, uh, the success of this and then they're gonna do a whole series on it, where they're doing a documentary and they're showing all the footage. So you, you're gonna be able to see it for yourself. And I'm, I'm, I'm hoping that this stops the ridicule, because there's a bunch of scientists when... And I think this is with the UAP topic as well, uh, the UFO topic as well. I think, um, there's a bunch of people that don't want to consider it because there's too much bullshit out there, and there's too much of a possibility that you could look like a fool. And to a very respected scientist whose research is very important, as we were talking about with, with the IBM thing, where there's hundreds of millions of dollars that are dedicated towards these, why would you risk all that and the credibility of all that on this nonsense about people seeing things with their brain in a closed room, finding coordinates, pretending they're on top of a mountain, all that kind of stuff?

   15. JVJacques Vallée47:19

       Well, f- fortunately, you know, certainly in, you know, in California, uh, there are people who can take risk, you know, uh, and, and, and put a few million dollars behind-

   16. JRJoe Rogan47:35

       Yeah.

   17. JVJacques Vallée47:35

       ... behind, uh, behind something.

   18. JRJoe Rogan47:37

       Shout out to Stanford.

   19. JVJacques Vallée47:39

       Uh... Yep.

   20. JRJoe Rogan47:39

       Yeah.

   21. JVJacques Vallée47:40

       And, and, uh, you know, as you know, I come from France, and in, in France, uh, it's very, very hard to do that, you know, because, uh, the system is very structured-

   22. JRJoe Rogan47:50

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JVJacques Vallée47:50

       ... and very conventional and so on.

   24. JRJoe Rogan47:52

       Right.

   25. JVJacques Vallée47:52

       Even though France has had some of the brightest people in, in that kind of research.

   26. JRJoe Rogan47:57

       So it's just a cultural limitation of the culture?

   27. JVJacques Vallée48:00

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan48:00

       It's... Yeah.

   29. JVJacques Vallée48:01

       Uh, it's, you know, sort of everything has to be rational.

   30. JRJoe Rogan48:04

       Mm-hmm.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   So we can't, uh-…

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:00:00

      They just added it in there.

   2. JVJacques Vallée1:00:01

      So we can't, uh-

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:00:02

      What is that supposed to be in the background?

   4. JVJacques Vallée1:00:03

      ... so in, in our book, we stayed away from that. We, we wanted to go to records of somebody having actually testified that he saw something or she saw something.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:00:13

      Hmm. Right, not just artwork.

   6. JVJacques Vallée1:00:15

      Right.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:00:16

      Um, but it just is very bizarre that this artwork continually depicts people in crafts. And look, what is that thing? Flying around.

   8. JVJacques Vallée1:00:26

      Yes. And, and-

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:00:28

      Like, what the hell (laughs) ?

   10. JVJacques Vallée1:00:28

       ... there is a communication with the man-

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:00:31

       Who's looking up at it.

   12. JVJacques Vallée1:00:32

       He's looking at it, and, and there is a sense of... that he's actually seeing it-

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:00:38

       Right.

   14. JVJacques Vallée1:00:38

       ... and having a sense of what it is.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:00:40

       It's like an Easter egg someone put into the painting.

   16. JVJacques Vallée1:00:43

       So this may be-

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:00:44

       Very strange.

   18. JVJacques Vallée1:00:45

       ... that the artist sort of, uh, you know, put that in as a, as a side...... of course, you know, the main theme is the virgin and the child.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:00:57

       What's that one over there, Jamie, in the second row that says "Inside Ancient"? Yeah, that one. What the hell is that? That's what really freaks me out, is the, uh, paintings on cave walls that look just like greys.

   20. JVJacques Vallée1:01:11

       Uh, well, uh-

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:01:12

       These bizarre paintings of things that just-

   22. JVJacques Vallée1:01:16

       Yep.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:01:16

       ... look like they are people wearing helmets.

   24. JVJacques Vallée1:01:20

       And, uh, s- the most interesting to me come from the Sahara. You know, uh, the, um, I have, I have friends who are anthropologists who worked with the UN in, in, in Africa and so on and, in part, in, in part of the Sahara. And th- th- w- what they w- one theory they have is that the, the, the culture that eventually moved to Egypt came from the Sahara. So I say, "Well, the Sahara is just sand." Well, it's just sand today, but we know that at one time, it was flourishing. There were forests. There was water. In fact, there is water, but it's underground water. It's a large amount of underground water. There was a sea there at one time. And so, uh, there, there probably was an earlier civilization and some of those come from the Tassili. The Tassili is a region in the Sahara where there are a lot of those representations so there were a lot of people living there at one time and they painted that on the rocks.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:02:35

       See if you can find some of those, Jamie. Yeah, it d- and you see similar things that indigenous people in Australia have painted, similar thing- it's all over the world.

   26. JVJacques Vallée1:02:47

       Yes.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:02:48

       In completely separate environments, very similar features on, in these cave paintings.

   28. JVJacques Vallée1:02:56

       And, um, well, I th- I think archeologists wouldn't disagree with that. I think they would say, "But the problem is that we don't correlate it." I mean, they didn't write anything.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:03:08

       Right.

   30. JVJacques Vallée1:03:09

       You know, the, um-
6. 1:15:00 – 1:30:00

   Hmm? …

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:15:00

   2. JVJacques Vallée1:15:00

      Hmm?

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:15:00

      How do, how do we know that these things breathe at all? Just because they...

   4. JVJacques Vallée1:15:03

      Well, they had no breathing-

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:15:04

      Right.

   6. JVJacques Vallée1:15:05

      ... equipment.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:15:05

      But how do we even know that they're-

   8. JVJacques Vallée1:15:06

      They were functioning normally.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:15:07

      ... biological?

   10. JVJacques Vallée1:15:08

       They had two eyes, uh, a small nose-

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:15:11

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JVJacques Vallée1:15:11

       ... a small mouth.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:15:12

       But couldn't they possibly be some sort of, uh, a creation? Instead of, uh, being a biological entity, couldn't they be some sort of artificial life?

   14. JVJacques Vallée1:15:21

       So I, I've, um, I've asked, uh, uh, uh, Gary Nolan about that, you know? I mean-

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:15:28

       Yeah.

   16. JVJacques Vallée1:15:28

       ... I'm not a biologist. And, um, I think i- it would be known if somebody had created, uh, uh, m- meta human-

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:15:41

       I don't mean somebody. I mean-

   18. JVJacques Vallée1:15:42

       But, well...

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:15:42

       ... another life form from somewhere else.

   20. JVJacques Vallée1:15:45

       There, there were, there were stories of the Russians, uh, actually thinking about creating a, a, a, a dwarf b- you know, human to pilot their ships because they didn't expect to have the energy, you know, the... to, to have a big rocket. It turned out they found that. Korolev built the big rocket, so they-

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:16:10

       Oh, so they were trying to get tiny people to power their ships because they were lighter?

   22. JVJacques Vallée1:16:14

       But the, the CIA was looking into rumors that the Russians in the '50s be- you know, before Sputnik, that the Russians were trying to create a, uh, um, uh, a humanoid, uh, that, that could pilot a spaceship.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:16:34

       Well, I know that the Russians, there was some talk of them trying to create a human ape hybrid. They were trying to do something with chimpanzees and try to create some sort of a human chimpanzee hybrid for war, which is a terrifying thought-

   24. JVJacques Vallée1:16:49

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:16:49

       ... that they would... First of all, if they were successful, how terrifying would that be? But just that they were interested in doing that, creating a race of chimpanzee human warriors.

   26. JVJacques Vallée1:17:03

       Um, uh, there was no... To my knowledge, there hasn't been any correlation of that. And the, the creatures that are described in Socorro, in New Mexico, and in Valensole, in France, the... so those are three cases that I've been very involved in from the beginning, from the, from day one, um, uh, involve creatures that are about, you know, three feet tall, that breathe our air, hairless. Recognize our signals, you know, communicate with us-

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:17:40

       Uh-huh.

   28. JVJacques Vallée1:17:41

       ... in funny ways, even men- mentally. I mean, the witnesses describe getting images in their minds and so on in all three cases. And the, um... uh, what's interesting is, you know, people can argue about Trinity all they want, like they argue about Roswell, but the, the case in Socorro and the case in, in France, in Valensole, were investigated by governments, you know, not by, uh, you know, the local, uh, UFO group. Although the local UFO group did a good job in all those cases, but they were... In Socorro, it was first the, you know, the local police, local policemen this... saw the-... the craft and the beings and described what happened. They, he was terrified, but, you know, when the thing took off, uh, he thought it was something to do with some new gadget or some work in the desert or... It's an area that's still in the same state today. I've gone back there with Dr. Hynek's son, you know-

   29. NANarrator1:18:48

       Oh, wow.

   30. JVJacques Vallée1:18:49

       ... with Paul Hynek a few months ago. I've gone several, several times there. And so after the police, uh, turned out the FBI was in town on another case, they had no jurisdiction in New Mexico for that particular case, it wasn't a federal case, but they helped preserve the ca- the traces, you know, the FBI way. And, uh, the local police was happy to have them there. And, and then there was the, the state police came in and did an investigation. And then people from the base, uh, you know, uh, came in with, with experts in, uh, in explosives, experts in recovery of, uh, of weapons and, and rockets and so on because they felt it might be something that had come from, um, you know, from the Trinity range that was out of its way-
7. 1:30:00 – 1:38:19

   Whoa. …

   1. JVJacques Vallée1:30:00

      uh, but it's still, you know, it, it's still in New Mexico, but it's, it's in that direction. Uh, uh, a light that's not a star, i- it's really bright. And the, the light gets brighter and brighter, and his car dies. Now, he's head of a motor pool, okay, for the base. Everybody reports to him, and they have all the, you know, all the, uh, army cars and, uh, trucks and everything else, the half-tracks, um...So, uh, he looks at that thing. Uh, he tries to call his team. The radio doesn't work. Radio should work. Radio doesn't work. And the- the thing gets very bright and then it recedes. It goes- it goes away, the way it apparently came in. We don't know if it came in or if it just got bright. Okay. Uh, the sta- the car starts. Um, he goes home and then the next day, he goes to his shop. He gets his staff together. He says, "You guys are going to take this car apart. I want to see every screw and every piece of it and every lever and everything, and the seats and so on. I want to see all of that on the floor. And you're going to test it and you're going to tell me what's changed or, if anything, how that car stopped in the middle of the desert." And they couldn't find anything. And that report was an official report, okay? That was never published and it- it nails the whole thing, you know? That this was not a balloon. This was not an hallucination. The- the- the patrolman wasn't drunk like they accused him of, or- or making up a story and so on. The, uh... Lonnie Zamora, when Dr. Hynek, uh, interrogated him, he said he wanted to talk to a priest and confess to a priest before he would talk to Dr. Hynek, okay?

   2. NANarrator1:32:11

      Whoa.

   3. JVJacques Vallée1:32:11

      That's the kind of man he was. And they essentially destroyed this guy because they thought it was, you know, bad reputation for the town of Socorro. Tourists wouldn't come there because they'd be afraid of strange things flying.

   4. NANarrator1:32:27

      Hmm.

   5. JVJacques Vallée1:32:27

      And the Air Force said, "Well, it's a one witness case." You know? "There's this patrolman who saw this." There were 12 witnesses. There was a- a guy, uh, uh, who was driving on the main road, the same road where the patrolman had been driving, who... The- the thing passed right over his car. He thought he was going to be driven off the road by this big oval thing that just went right over the- the- the roof of the car into the desert. Uh, well, he called the... Uh, he- he called the police and reported it. There's a wri- a written report. He signed that report. We know his name. There were-

   6. NANarrator1:33:08

      Without him having any knowledge of what happened.

   7. JVJacques Vallée1:33:11

      Uh, that's right.

   8. NANarrator1:33:12

      All right.

   9. JVJacques Vallée1:33:12

      Uh, I- I mean, uh, he saw this, uh- uh- some-

   10. NANarrator1:33:15

       Independently.

   11. JVJacques Vallée1:33:16

       You know, one of your gadgets trying to drive me off the road, you know?

   12. NANarrator1:33:20

       Right.

   13. JVJacques Vallée1:33:20

       There were- there were several people on the road on the other side of this little, you know, desert thing that's... You know, when it rains, they- the water rains all over the place. It wa- washes everything out, just sand and rocks. But on the other side, there is a main road. Several people on the road saw the thing take off and reported it because it was just so strange. So, the Air Force put that aside. They neglected to... You know, this was... And they- they just kept saying it was a one witness case. It wasn't. Most of those cases where they say it was one witness and they... You have to look at the- you have to look for the other guys.

   14. NANarrator1:34:05

       Hmm.

   15. JVJacques Vallée1:34:07

       And, um, again, uh, you know... I- I brought you something. Can I tell you about it?

   16. NANarrator1:34:12

       Sure. What'd you bring?

   17. JVJacques Vallée1:34:13

       So this is something that, uh, the case was so interesting that Dr. Nolan and I and a couple of friends wrote it up and published it in the prime, uh, astronautics review in- in the world, okay? It's... Uh, so after... Uh, it took a couple of years for them to a- agree to look at it and so on, to look at the analysis. This happened in a suburb of Omaha, Nebraska. But on the Iowa side. There is this town, this suburb with a park. This is, uh, about- about a week before Christmas in 1977. Okay? Um, people are there having a good time in the park in the evening. It's- it's getting, you know, it's getting dark and... Um, and, um, I want to make sure I'm... Yeah. Um, the- they see something in the sky that looks like one of those boxes there. You know, it looks like a- a- a round box with- with lights around it and the lights are going- are going around sort of, and- and it's- it's pretty high and it's flying over the- the town. Um, and then a- a mass of steel, liquid steel falls in the park. It falls on the levee in the park. There is about a half a ton of it, liquid, glowing. I- it has nothing, no business being there. So you- you have this mass of metal. Uh, obviously they call the-

   18. NANarrator1:36:15

       So it's glowing. You're saying it's molten? So it's liquid that's hot.

   19. JVJacques Vallée1:36:16

       Yes. The weather is freezing.

   20. NANarrator1:36:18

       Okay.

   21. JVJacques Vallée1:36:18

       We know the temperature and everything else. It's freezing. The- the grass is on fire around it. They call the firemen. The firemen call the police. The police gets there and the firemen get there. They- they stop the fire. The fire is, you know, would have died by itself. There's no- no problem there. They take pictures of the thing glowing. I have the pictures, infrared.... uh, uh, uh, no, uh, Pa- Polaroid pictures of the- of- of the- the thing glowing in the grass, burning. Uh, I mean liquid. And, uh, it's going to stay liquid for a couple of hours and it cools down gradually and then people take pieces of it as souvenirs. So I have the pieces of it and there they are. Now, um, uh, there was analysis done by two labs. Obviously, the question is, where- where did that come from? I mean, uh, you know... Uh, and, uh, there is chromium, titanium and iron, which you can find in ordinary steel, but this isn't really... the composition isn't exactly what you'd expect industrial steel to be. So one of the chemical analyses is done at the lab, you know, for a, um, uh, for industrial steel. Uh, the investigators call the- the company. The company ha- says, "Yes, we make, you know, steel, uh, so we have furnaces but we empty the- the- the furnaces as this is over a weekend, the factory's closed. There would be nobody there, you know, and so they know liquid- know liquid steel in- in our factory-"

Episode duration: 2:47:47