Joe Rogan Experience #2288 - Jacques Vallée

1. 0:00 – 1:47

   Jacques Vallée at SRI: ARPANET roots and meeting Hal Puthoff

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drum music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. JVJacques Vallée0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) What up, sir? Very good to see you.

   4. JVJacques Vallée0:15

      Good to see you.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      I really enjoyed our conversation last night. We all went out to dinner and Hal Puthoff blew my mind.

   6. JVJacques Vallée0:23

      I, as you know, I've known him for a long time. Uh...

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:26

      Yeah, when did you meet him? What year?

   8. JVJacques Vallée0:28

      Uh, I knew him at SRI. Actually I was at Stanford Research Institute before him, um, uh, in one of the very early internet research teams when, uh, there was no internet. It was called the ARPANET. It was a-

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:44

      Wow.

   10. JVJacques Vallée0:44

       ... a network of the advanced research project agency and it was all, you know, computer experiment and so on. It turned into... We had, um, engine number three on the internet at, at SRI.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:58

       Wow.

   12. JVJacques Vallée0:58

       In California.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:00

       Engine number three-

   14. JVJacques Vallée1:00

       So it was part of the-

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:01

       ... on the ARPANET.

   16. JVJacques Vallée1:02

       By the time I joined them, there were like 30 machines already, so, uh, and it was exciting and then, um, you know, uh, Dr. Puthoff and Russell Targ came in with a proposal to SRI to do, uh, parapsychology research at SRI, which had never been done. And it was funny because the... So I was already there, you know, in, in a team.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:30

       What year was this?

   18. JVJacques Vallée1:32

       Hm?

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:32

       What year?

   20. JVJacques Vallée1:34

       Oh, God. Um, uh, '74.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:42

       Wow.

   22. JVJacques Vallée1:42

       '73... Yeah. '74, '74.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:44

       So the ARPANET was around '74?

   24. JVJacques Vallée1:46

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:47

       Wow.

2. 1:47 – 5:28

   Selling the board on parapsychology: funding risk vs scientific upside

   1. JVJacques Vallée1:47

      And, um, the... It was funny because I was in, in my office and the vice president of SRI came in, uh, closed the door, and said, um, "Jacques, uh, you know, you've published some things, uh, controversial under your name on UFOs. Um, and, uh, you haven't lost your scientific reputation which is why you're here working for us at SRI, uh, on, on the ARPANET. But, um, you know, there's a proposal from, uh, Dr. Puthoff and Dr. Targ to do parapsychology research here and we've never done that." And I said, "Well, you know, it's, it's a very valid... I, I think it's a very valid area of research. We should, you know... We're in the kind of institution that should do that." He said, "Well, let me, let me draw something on your whiteboard." And he drew a scale, a horizontal scale. And on, on one side there was a, a, a little square. He said, "This is the most we can expect in terms of funding for research in parapsychology. You know, it's maybe at most a million a year, okay? And here is what I manage, you know, in this division." He drew a huge cube, you know, it said $150 million. "Should we jeopardize the research we do for Xerox and IBM and AT&T and Bank of America and so on, just to do some research on, you know, uh, uh, psychic things?" And I said, "Well, um, you know, the, the re- the reason we, we get all this money from DOD and Bank of America and so on, is that we do the research that they can't do themselves. We do, we do the... You know, we go out and we take risk, and, uh, I think we should, uh, take the same risk with, uh, uh, with Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ because this could be very big. You know, there is a lot of literature on this already and we can bring science into it, and they can bring the science into it, you know?" And he said, um, "Well, there is a meeting of the board of directors of SRI, you know, in two days, and most of them are against it. What do I tell them?" And I said, "Well, I can, you know, I can write up the, the reasons why in science you have to take chances and this is science. I mean, this isn't just engineering." And he said, uh, "Well, um, give me a memo by, by tomorrow at 12:00." So I went home and I, I wrote a two-page memo, which was confidential, I don't, don't think anybody has seen it, for the, for the board, explaining why there was scientific evidence, you know, enough of it so that good research could be done and, uh, I, I, you know... Obviously that, that may have helped in, uh, getting, getting the approval for them to come in. And then after the first year, you know, they were there because, uh, you know, the, the, the money kept coming and the results can... you know, good scientific results came, c- came in, came out of it.

3. 5:28 – 9:17

   What parapsychology tried to measure—and the missing physics

   1. JRJoe Rogan5:28

      So when you say parapsychology, specifically what were you attempting to study?

   2. JVJacques Vallée5:33

      So most of parapsychology, you know, as the name indicates, has been studied by psychologists. You know, people who have experiences and they relate their experiences, and they have strange dreams, they have all that. And, uh, and then th- that has been structured by, you know, people doing experiments and... For example, you know, trying to move objects with your mind, uh, trying to, of course, uh, send messages-... psychically to other people, and, uh, or guessing what's written in a, a closed envelope and so on, that kind of thing. And, uh, but, uh, uh, again, those were done by good experimentalists, but it wasn't... Where is the physics of it? I mean, you know, because in physics, you know, those things are not, not supposed to happen (laughs) .

   3. JRJoe Rogan6:28

      Without an understanding of a sense that perhaps we're not quite aware of.

   4. JVJacques Vallée6:33

      That's right. And that, uh, you know, our physics has been dealing with objects and with atoms and all that. But it's, it's clear in modern physics that there are other things and that the theories we have about the, the different fields in the universe are in conflict with each other, in our relativity and quantum mechanics are in conflict. And-

   5. JRJoe Rogan6:59

      I was reading something that was... Oh, god. I just, I, I glanced at it quickly and I was running out the door, but I was gonna ask Jamie to pull it up. They, they... There's new research that shows that human beings have the ability to detect the magnetic field the same way that birds do when they fly south and, and other animals they believe do when they navigate terrain. They think that human beings have this ability, but perhaps it's something that we have ignored so long, it's atrophied or it's not something that we use.

   6. JVJacques Vallée7:35

      Uh, that, that, that's a question for, um, you know, a, a biologist or a specialist of the brain, although it may not be in, in the brain itself. It may be diffused in, in the organism. Uh, so I'm not really qualified, you know, to-

   7. JRJoe Rogan7:52

      Well, I was gonna ask Jamie to pull up the article. But the point being that there perhaps are senses that we're either not aware of. Humans, like other animals, may sense Earth's magnetic field. Yeah, this is it.

   8. JVJacques Vallée8:04

      The hell?

   9. JRJoe Rogan8:04

      Okay. This is from a while ago.

   10. JVJacques Vallée8:05

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan8:05

       This is from 2019.

   12. JVJacques Vallée8:07

       Yes.

   13. JRJoe Rogan8:07

       Okay.

   14. JVJacques Vallée8:08

       How-

   15. JRJoe Rogan8:08

       This is not the same article, but, uh, it's probably a rehash.

   16. NANarrator8:10

       That's what it says. I... There's another similar one here from, like, a month ago that's-

   17. JRJoe Rogan8:14

       Hmm.

   18. NANarrator8:14

       ... the exact same title.

   19. JRJoe Rogan8:15

       Yes.

   20. NANarrator8:16

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan8:16

       That's what I saw. This episode is brought to you by Intuit TurboTax. We're all just trying to level up, right? I'm always trying to push myself, whether it's training, learning something new, or just trying to be a better human. You put in work physically, mentally, and over time, you evolve. It's 2025. Doing your taxes has evolved, too. Just like we put in the work to level up, TurboTax has put in the work to make taxes effortless. Because now, taxes is getting matched up with a TurboTax live expert who has the latest tech. With that, they can cross-check millions of data points to make sure that your return is 100% accurate. That means you get the best possible outcome this tax season for your unique tax situation, all while you go about your day. It's 2025. It's time to file like it. Now, this is taxes Intuit TurboTax. Get an expert now at turbotax.com.

4. 9:17 – 14:01

   Indigenous navigation, ‘Telepathy Tapes,’ and dormant human abilities

   1. JVJacques Vallée9:17

      You know, if, if-

   2. JRJoe Rogan9:19

      Yeah.

   3. JVJacques Vallée9:19

      ... if you look at the history of, uh, the islands in the Pacific, like, I spent some time in Tahiti and I, I looked at their traditions, they were navigating the Pacific fine. They knew where they were going. Now, part of that was navigating with the moon, but part of it was something else. And on every ship, they had one, you know, one, one man who was gifted in guiding with respect... of course, guiding with respect to what the ocean looked like-

   4. JRJoe Rogan9:52

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JVJacques Vallée9:53

      ... and, and to the moon and so on. But also, uh, that's never really been explained. They had an uncanny a- ability to get to the right islands, you know, on the way to their destination.

   6. JRJoe Rogan10:09

      Hmm.

   7. JVJacques Vallée10:09

      And to guide those ships. Otherwise, they would have been, you know... they, they didn't have compasses.

   8. JRJoe Rogan10:15

      Right.

   9. JVJacques Vallée10:15

      And, uh, there, there are books now coming out and certainly, i- I found some of those books in, you know, in, in Tahiti, uh, ab- about the, the, the history of that and the, the research that's been done into those people. Uh, but they were, they were special people. They were (laughs) they, you know, they were gifted.

   10. JRJoe Rogan10:39

       Hmm.

   11. JVJacques Vallée10:39

       Uh, that's not something, you know, that I could do.

   12. JRJoe Rogan10:43

       Have you, um, heard or listened to the Telepathy Tapes?

   13. JVJacques Vallée10:48

       The what, what?

   14. JRJoe Rogan10:48

       The Telepathy Tapes. Are you aware of this?

   15. JVJacques Vallée10:51

       Uh, v- vaguely. I'm not-

   16. JRJoe Rogan10:52

       It's a podcast that's about non-verbal autistic kids that demonstrate psychic ability. Um, provable, they've got d- dozens of these cases on video where people in other rooms are looking at objects. The child, completely locked off, can't see them at all. Will say and write down what those objects are, colors, numbers, and sequence, and very accurately. And so, they believe that this is something that... Well, many of these parents have talked about it in the past, but felt foolish, felt like it was something that they would be ridiculed about, and so they didn't want to talk about it openly. But once they started gathering up information, they got more people to open up about this, then they start documenting it. And s- they start coming up with ways to make sure that there couldn't be a, any possible way they could be communicating with each other. And, uh, it's just utterly fascinating, because they're showing-

   17. JVJacques Vallée11:48

       Yes.

   18. JRJoe Rogan11:48

       ... that there is something going on. There's some way of transferring information back and forth, including some of these teachers have figured out a way to not just receive, but also transmit the same way these children have. So, people that aren't non-verbal and they aren't, they, they aren't autistic-... the, these people are able to do it as well. They've been able to create a bond with these children and communicate with them.

   19. JVJacques Vallée12:11

       And there are companies in, uh, Silicon Valley that, uh, you know, are heavily involved in, in, a- advanced, um, processing and advance, uh, uh, programming, specifically recruiting, uh, young men, uh, and women with that kind of talent. One, one of my ... I have three grandsons that I love and one of them is, uh, uh, uh, it's not clear, you know, whether he's actually autistic in the current definition, but he certainly has some of that, you know, some of those indications of-

   20. JRJoe Rogan12:46

       Some sort of a gift.

   21. JVJacques Vallée12:47

       ... yeah, of, of thinking and getting information in, in ways that are very different from the... Now, it may be that in evolution, uh, the, the reason, you know, uh, sort of "lower animals" can do it and we cannot, uh, is that we've developed other ways of getting information-

   22. JRJoe Rogan13:07

       Right.

   23. JVJacques Vallée13:08

       ... that are more reliable in the long run or, you know. So it, uh, uh, it may be just one of the dormant, you know, abilities that we have that most of us don't, you know, don't develop and-

   24. JRJoe Rogan13:22

       Right.

   25. JVJacques Vallée13:22

       ... we're not encouraged to grow it in school because it's, you know, disturbing for the rest of the class and so on, if, uh ...

   26. JRJoe Rogan13:30

       And perhaps it's something that people had before language, and language and then written language and then, of course, media sort of eroded those abilities.

   27. JVJacques Vallée13:42

       Yes. Uh, and you find that, uh, uh, also in South America, uh, and, and in Australia, you know, and in Australia and New Zealand, uh, uh-

   28. JRJoe Rogan13:54

       In the indigenous people?

   29. JVJacques Vallée13:55

       ... uh, uh, yes.

   30. JRJoe Rogan13:56

       Yeah.
5. 14:01 – 16:36

   Remote viewing at SRI: intelligence funding and early operational claims

   1. JRJoe Rogan14:01

      Hmm. Right. And... So perhaps it's something that we all had and we've lost it. Now, when you were initially studying parapsychology, what, what were the protocols that you were using? Like, how were you trying to deter- determine whether or not people were capable?

   2. JVJacques Vallée14:18

      So, um, uh, uh, you know, a- again, uh, in, in my own ab- I've studied parapsychology more as a, you know, as a personal interest. But, uh, um, Dr. Puthoff and Dr. Targ were doing it as, with scientific controls.

   3. JRJoe Rogan14:39

      Yes.

   4. JVJacques Vallée14:39

      I mean, that was the point, uh, that to, to look at it from a physics point of view, you know, not just from a parapsychology or, or psychology point of view. So they were designing tests that were, um, more tied to physical quantities. And one of the people that they brought in was Ingo Swann, who was an, an artist from New York. He was very uncomfortable with California. The sky is always blue, you know, it's boring and so on.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:13

      (laughs)

   6. JVJacques Vallée15:13

      And he, he liked New York. He liked the, the, the animation of the city and his friends and so on. But, uh, I knew, of course, of, of him. I had read some of the things he... So when he came to SRI, he, he told me, um, that, you know, uh, remote viewing is one thing, or parapsychology, but it should be applied to science and also, you know, it, it had to be applied to, um, intelligence in the sense of, you know, the, the, the intelligence agencies were funding SRI to do this, okay?

   7. JRJoe Rogan15:53

      Hmm.

   8. JVJacques Vallée15:54

      Uh, the three-letter, you know, agencies. There were a number of them who were very interested, uh, because they knew that gift existed, you know, in pilots and in n- number of people. And-

   9. JRJoe Rogan16:06

      And so they were trying to figure out a way to utilize this for military applications?

   10. JVJacques Vallée16:10

       Um, mostly to look at developments in the Soviet Union at that point.

   11. JRJoe Rogan16:15

       Oh, so they were trying-

   12. JVJacques Vallée16:16

       But, but also, you know, lost spacecraft. They found this lost spacecraft in the middle of a jungle in Africa and so on by-

   13. JRJoe Rogan16:25

       Lost spacecraft?

   14. JVJacques Vallée16:25

       ... by parapsychology.

   15. JRJoe Rogan16:26

       Whose spacecraft? Ours?

   16. JVJacques Vallée16:28

       Um, n- no. It was Russian.

   17. JRJoe Rogan16:31

       Uh, they, so they found it through, like, remote viewing?

   18. JVJacques Vallée16:35

       Yes.

   19. JRJoe Rogan16:36

       Really?

6. 16:36 – 21:15

   How coordinate remote viewing was built: a computing analogy becomes a method

   1. JVJacques Vallée16:36

      So, uh, when, um, uh, uh, so Ingo was starting to go around the labs at SRI. He wanted to, he was... He had never been in a scientific institution where it's full of computers and gadgets and measuring instruments and everything else. So he wanted to know... uh, uh, he saw that as the next domain where parapsychology could be applied in a straight, scientific, rational way. So he wa- I was one of the people that he wanted to talk to. And I, I, I told him, "Do, do you know how a computer finds data?" You know, you have a computer, a machine full of, you know, chips. How does it deal with the real world? And he said, "I have no idea. I mean, I've never looked inside a computer." And I said, "Well, there's three ways. You know, as a programmer, I can declare, uh, uh, a variable. I can say X is always going to be 3.14, okay? Or pi. Uh, but in many cases, I can give you the address of the place where I've put the data that is going to be different. The address is going to be the same, but the data is going to change every time. So, but I can give you the address. It's, uh, 23-14. 23-14 is where I'm going to put, you know, the age of the patient."... okay? But it's going to be different with every patient. So that's, uh, dir- direct a- addressing, uh, that I can also put in that location, I can put the address of somewhere else, which I'm going to compute in my program and that's indirect addressing. And then there is a rest of the world, which is too big to put inside a machine and the machine has a memory, maybe very big, but it's still limited. So it's going to go get the information from some memory device somewhere else, you know, maybe the World Bank and, uh, or the Library of Congress. And there, I cannot give you the address, but I can give you, um, a, a sort of imaginary process by which you can derive the address when you get there and bring it into the memory of your computer and then work with it. And, um, he said, "You know, that's it. That's, that's what I need." And then he came up with the, the, the idea of coordinate remote viewing out of that conversation I had with him, okay? So that was my contribution to the, the actual project at the beginning and then he thought the... as an address, he was going to take coordinates, longitude and latitude, because they were... we were going to look at... they were going to... I wasn't officially part of the, uh, but I was, you know, I had passed the qualifications to be at SRI in a Department of Defense project. So I, I, I was one of the good guys. So we, uh, we had many conversation with coffee and so on in the lab with, uh, with Ingo and later with Uri Geller that were absolutely fascinating to me, so I, I tried to... In some cases, I, they, they needed to talk to someone who knew technology and was interested in this even though I wasn't, you know, uh, uh, on the project itself. But somebody who was inside, you know, so that they didn't... the information didn't get, get out into the real world until they were ready to actually publish it, because everybody wanted to kill their project. I mean, there were so many skeptics saying, you know, "This can't work. They are making it up." Uh-

   2. JRJoe Rogan20:49

      Right.

   3. JVJacques Vallée20:49

      They are fooled by a prestidigitator. You know, Uri Geller is a magician and all those things.

   4. JRJoe Rogan20:55

      Right, right.

   5. JVJacques Vallée20:55

      Well, he is a magician. (laughs) But, but he's also, you know, a, a, an extraordinary psychic.

   6. JRJoe Rogan21:03

      So, so could you explain, um, so they're looking for this Russian spacecraft, so w- how do they... what's the environment in which they remote view? How do they set this up?

7. 21:15 – 26:29

   Inside the protocol: ideograms, ‘signal overload,’ and avoiding analytic contamination

   1. JVJacques Vallée21:15

      So, um, Ingo, um, after the project was pretty much over, there, there was some continuous studies and Ingo brought me back to work with him, uh, because he wanted to write a book, uh, that would be a synthesis of his methodology, you know, to answer your question-

   2. JRJoe Rogan21:41

      Okay.

   3. JVJacques Vallée21:41

      ... of how do you do this. And he had a very structured way of, of, um, of doing that with a number of, of... Uh, what he wanted to do was train people to do that, hopefully to his level, okay? Um, so it was step-by-step, so there was a first... Y- you had a pad of paper, you know, and a pen, and he was sitting at the end there. The table was about like this, you know, except there was nothing on it and in a, a room that had nothing on the walls, no windows. There was a chair here and a chair there, so he was away from me. I couldn't see what he was reading. He had a stack of targets that were places on the Earth and, I mean, obviously, the, the idea was to look at what was going on in, you know, Vladivostok or in, you know, some cor-

   4. JRJoe Rogan22:39

      When you say a stack of targets, can, can you explain, like is it a map? Is he... is it just coordinates?

   5. JVJacques Vallée22:45

      It was just coordinates.

   6. JRJoe Rogan22:46

      Just numbers?

   7. JVJacques Vallée22:47

      He had gotten the maps and those were test things from, you know, uh, geographic features on the Earth, cities, mountains...

   8. JRJoe Rogan22:57

      Mm-hmm. Got it.

   9. JVJacques Vallée22:58

      ... and so on. So, um, he would read out the coordinates and I had a pad of, of paper and a number two pencil, so everything was very coded, you know, very strict. And I would draw something that he called an ideogram. So it could be like this, you know, it could be a curve, it could be... And then just first impression. Uh, his theory, which I, I think, you know, having experienced it, uh, we, we did that for a year. Now I had a job somewhere else, but I was coming two, two mornings a week, you know, to work with him. This was classified, so the, the, other people at SRI had no idea what was going on in that room that was dedicated to his work. Um, and the, um... He would read out the... His idea was that y- the... we can all get that signal, you know, there is a signal. If I give you a s- a longitude and a latitude, you-... potentially can describe what's there; if it's a city, if it's a mountain, if it's, uh, uh, some place in the country. Uh, the reason you cannot is when the signal is overwhelming, the signal is extraordinarily large, much larger than we can hold it in our brains. So, the people who do that have a way of processing the signal and recalling it, and that's the secret. That's what's, uh, that's the main thing, to me, that's come out of the SRI study, among many things. But so, he, his idea was you have to stop the signal, you have to catch it. And it's going to be very, very fast and most people just go on with their life. You know, they just, it's just a passing thing. And, but you can recall the signal. So, he would read out the coordinates again. And now, my, my little scribble is going to turn into maybe a series of waves and then, you know, a city with skyscrapers after, if we do that a number of ways. Now, there are a lot of, of errors that can come in and then we can, we can think we recognize it and try to name it. That's the thing you can't, you shouldn't do. You shouldn't try to name it because to name it, put it in the other half of the brain, which is logical and rational and, you know. So, uh, the idea is to label that as an error, you know, it's not a city by the, by the bay, it's something else so we go on and we keep just going on. So, you have to do that with a very patient guide, you know, to train yourself to do that. And SRI, you know, uh, Hal and, and, uh, Ingo did, did that, you know, very well in training a cadre of people who could be almost, not quite, but almost as good as Ingo, and there were a couple who were as good, as good as he was. One time, now I, I said, "But Ingo, you know I'm not psychic." He said, "Well, you know, think about that because

8. 26:29 – 28:40

   Personal hits and limits: the Andes ‘cold peak’ event and grading accuracy

   1. JVJacques Vallée26:29

      you've shown evidence of having, of understanding the process." You know, there are some things that I did that, that would be classified as, as psychic, but I cannot do it-

   2. JRJoe Rogan26:43

      What kind of things?

   3. JVJacques Vallée26:43

      ... I cannot control it.

   4. JRJoe Rogan26:44

      Right, it just happens randomly.

   5. JVJacques Vallée26:46

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan26:46

      What kind of like, what kind, what kind of things?

   7. JVJacques Vallée26:48

      Well, one time I, I get there 8:30 in the morning, we close the door, um, and he gave, gives me a set of coordinates, longitude and latitude somewhere. And I get very cold right away and I get dizzy. You know, I mean, I'm, I, I, you know, I have to grab the table and I, I'm not drawing anything and Ingo says, "Jacques, what's wrong?" And, and I said, "Ingo, I don't know where you're sending me but I'm cold, I'm trembling, I'm afraid. I'm afraid of falling and, uh, you know, I really don't, don't feel well." And he said, "You're on top of a peak in the Andes."

   8. JRJoe Rogan27:34

      Whoa. (laughs)

   9. JVJacques Vallée27:36

      So, he pulls out the, he pulls out the thing and gives it, gives it to me that comes from, um, you know, a, a photograph of, uh, of the Andes taken from an airplane with this, this peak. And they computed the coordinates of, uh, of the peak and that's what he was giving me. And I was there.

   10. JRJoe Rogan27:58

       You felt it physically. Did you see it or did you feel it?

   11. JVJacques Vallée28:00

       No. Uh, it was just a physiological reaction on my whole body. I was trembling-

   12. JRJoe Rogan28:05

       Exactly as if you were on-

   13. JVJacques Vallée28:07

       ... I was freezing cold-

   14. JRJoe Rogan28:07

       ... a peak.

   15. JVJacques Vallée28:08

       ... and I was very afraid of falling.

   16. JRJoe Rogan28:10

       Wow.

   17. JVJacques Vallée28:11

       I was falling. And, um-

   18. JRJoe Rogan28:14

       Had you had any of these that didn't work? Did they try any coordinate-

   19. JVJacques Vallée28:18

       Oh, yeah, yes, sure.

   20. JRJoe Rogan28:19

       How-

   21. JVJacques Vallée28:19

       I'm not, uh, you know, you should not use me as a, uh, remote viewer to launch a, you know-

   22. JRJoe Rogan28:26

       (laughs)

   23. JVJacques Vallée28:26

       ... a tomahawk, uh, over, (laughs) over somewhere. No.

   24. JRJoe Rogan28:31

       And so, it was-

   25. JVJacques Vallée28:32

       That's a problem that, of course, the army has, you know.

   26. JRJoe Rogan28:34

       Yes.

   27. JVJacques Vallée28:35

       Is it good enough so we can launch a rocket-

   28. JRJoe Rogan28:37

       Right.

   29. JVJacques Vallée28:38

       ... to destroy that thing?

   30. JRJoe Rogan28:39

       Right.
9. 28:40 – 37:29

   Who excels operationally: Joe McMoneagle and the Soviet submarine example

   1. JRJoe Rogan28:40

      Who is the best at it? Who's the best at remote? Is there one person that's consistently accurate?

   2. JVJacques Vallée28:46

      There are a couple and they, they are not, uh, uh, you know, Ingo was known because he wrote about it and so on. Uh, many of them, uh, Joe McMoneagle, uh, is, uh, probably the, the, the best one alive today. Uh, he described, um, a structure and he described a ship that was being built by the Russians, which was a super submarine in a hangar somewhere. And the Navy just laughed at him. They said, "That's crazy. Don't you, uh, it's in a hangar, uh, away from the sea, so why would you build a ship, you know, when you don't have the ocean?" Well, it turned out he was right and it was a super class, uh, new Soviet submarine. He described the inside of the building which had no windows and so on. Uh, and yeah, I mean, from a satellite they could see the building, but they couldn't see inside the building. He described what was inside the building, he described the submarine, he described the, the length and the, you know, he actually-... measured it psychically and that turned out to be right.

   3. JRJoe Rogan30:09

      Whoa.

   4. JVJacques Vallée30:09

      And then when the submarine was built, they brought some bulldozers and they dug (laughs) , you know, a channel to the sea and off it went.

   5. JRJoe Rogan30:18

      This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Being independent is good, but you should never be afraid to ask for help when you need it. After all, we're only human. We can't know everything. That's why it's crucial to have a support system, people you can go to when it gets rough. Think of friends, family members, your partner, hell, even your dog. When you're feeling down, spending time with a furry friend can be a good pick-me-up. But I get it, sometimes you don't want to or can't go to them for help. For these moments, try therapy. It can be a good source of support in any area of your life, whether you're working on personal relationships, job stress, or something else. Therapy can teach you a multitude of different things to help you be your best self, like how to set boundaries, when to let go of toxic relationships, and what to do when you feel overwhelmed. And even more importantly, you can do it in a safe space. If you think therapy might be a good option for you, a good place to start is BetterHelp. They have a diverse network of therapists and everything is online, which can be very convenient if you need a last-minute session. It's also very easy to switch therapists if it's not working out. Build your support system with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/jre to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P, .com/jre.

   6. JVJacques Vallée31:45

      So I-

   7. JRJoe Rogan31:46

      I had heard about this.

   8. JVJacques Vallée31:46

      ... I mean, tho- those things were extraordinary and, uh-

   9. JRJoe Rogan31:49

      Yeah. I had heard about this, but I didn't know it was that accurate.

   10. JVJacques Vallée31:54

       Y- yeah. That, that happened. And he was, um, a- as opposed to, uh, you know, one of us, he was, uh, he was right, you know, enough of the time that you could rely on what he was describing. And also, they came up with a way of measuring, actually quantifying the value of your perception, you know. So I- I- I told Ingo-

   11. JRJoe Rogan32:21

       How could they do that?

   12. JVJacques Vallée32:21

       ... you know, "Let's do another one," because I'm on a roll here, you know-

   13. JRJoe Rogan32:25

       Yeah. (laughs)

   14. JVJacques Vallée32:25

       ... after the speak in the end is he said, "No, Jacques, you know, you're going home now." I said, "Well, it's nine o'clock. You know, we've only been here half an hour. Why are you sending me home? I mean, this is great." You know, "I- I got it."

   15. JRJoe Rogan32:40

       Right.

   16. JVJacques Vallée32:40

       He said, "Yeah, you got it. You- y- you don't need all the levels. I mean, you got to the top level. You were there." Uh...

   17. JRJoe Rogan32:48

       Why did he want to send you home?

   18. JVJacques Vallée32:50

       Uh, he said, "I want you to stay with that feeling. I don't want to do another one that you'd miss."

   19. JRJoe Rogan32:57

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JVJacques Vallée32:57

       "So, and I- I want you to keep that in mind because you got the whole thing."

   21. JRJoe Rogan33:02

       Is this based on past experiments and the way they were achieve- achieving results?

   22. JVJacques Vallée33:08

       Y- yes.

   23. JRJoe Rogan33:08

       So he didn't want to bombard you with it.

   24. JVJacques Vallée33:09

       They were grading every, you know, every test subject and-

   25. JRJoe Rogan33:13

       Right.

   26. JVJacques Vallée33:13

       ... so on and...

   27. JRJoe Rogan33:13

       So he didn't want to give you another experience. He wanted you to take that experience and just-

   28. JVJacques Vallée33:18

       And-

   29. JRJoe Rogan33:18

       ... sit with it.

   30. JVJacques Vallée33:18

       ... and- uh, keep the experience with me-
10. 37:29 – 48:08

    Seers through history, charlatans, and why scientists fear ridicule

    1. JVJacques Vallée37:29

       There is no question. And you know in the movie, Patton.

    2. JRJoe Rogan37:35

       Yes.

    3. JVJacques Vallée37:35

       Patton is sent to North Africa because to fight Rommel. Rommel is there with his tanks and the American army is going to... is, isn't ready to invade Europe but wants to, to start, you know, uh, controlling the, the Germans in North Africa. He's sent there. He lands. There is a, you know, a, a lieutenant there with a Jeep that takes him to the place where there was, there was a, a battle and the, the Americans were decimated, you know, by Rommel, who was just a genius, you know, German general. Uh, great with tanks just like he w-... Uh, Pa- Patton considered him as his major, you know, enemy because both of them understood tanks. And, uh, so, uh, Patton gets in the Jeep. That's in the movie. It's just absolutely perfect. I've checked that. This was his- historical, you know, exact in the movie. They, uh, they drive to the site of the battle and they get to, in, in the desert in the Jeep, and they get to a fork in the road and they, the, you know, the driver takes to the left. And Patton said, uh, "Son, you know, why don't we go to the right? Because that's where the battle was." And the, uh, the driver says, "Uh, sir, uh, you know, with all due respect, I mean, I, I was there (laughs) when that battle is on the left." He said, "Trust me, go to the right." And they go to the right and they get to the edge of a plateau where you see a big plain and Patton says, "This is where the battle was when Hannibal came from the left with his elephants." You know? And the, the, the battle was there, you know, in the... And, and I wa- I had been there. I was there. Patton thought that in his... he was reincarnated from a, a Roman, uh, general who had been at that battle against Hannibal and his elephants. And, you know, the poor driver (laughs) saying, you know, "How, how did this happen?" You know? "How did I get here with, with this general who thinks he's reincarnated, you know, who fought against Hannibal?" And, uh, um, they... I've worked with people, as, as you know. I've run a number of venture capital fee- uh, funds, uh, with people who had that kind of intuition, you know? And you think, you think finance is driven by greed and so on but at some level, greed doesn't really matter, you know? It's, it's getting to the truth of something, especially in venture capital, where you're going to change the way things are done, you know, with these, these gadgets, with computers, with, uh, you know, uh, rockets and so on. Uh, you're going to go to a new generation of things. So it hasn't been done before. And the, the, the, the financial people, uh, you've got 10 engineers in front of you who can do it. There is one who will succeed and nine who's going to fail. And you have to pick, you have to pick the, the, the thinking that's going to succeed, you know? I mean, it's not... It's not the money and it's not the technology. It's the mind of the driver who'll, who'll say, "No, let's go to the right. Let's not go to the left." You know? I mean, Patton was extraordinary in, in that, I mean, he was a remote viewer.

    4. JRJoe Rogan41:41

       Hmm.

    5. JVJacques Vallée41:42

       And he demonstrated that again and again. You know, uh, there are some interesting books that I've collected from some of the, some of his lieutenants, you know, who...

    6. JRJoe Rogan41:52

       You would also have to consider, that's an extraordinary state of mind to be a general in a world war and the consequences of everything you do and what is at stake in this war is... Got to be a state of mind that's-

    7. JVJacques Vallée42:08

       Yes.

    8. JRJoe Rogan42:08

       ... very, very unusual with so many consequences and so much pressure that it probably makes some signals more clear if you have that ability to perceive them because you are... you must be in a heightened state-... of awareness-

    9. JVJacques Vallée42:24

       Yes.

    10. JRJoe Rogan42:24

        ... because just of the consequences of your life.

    11. JVJacques Vallée42:27

        That's, exactly. But you, you also have to be detached. I mean, he, you know, e- eventually he's going to go to the battlefield where the, you know, the, uh, bodies of-

    12. JRJoe Rogan42:39

        Mm-hmm.

    13. JVJacques Vallée42:39

        ... soldiers who have been killed or burning tanks and everything else. They show that in the movie. I mean-

    14. JRJoe Rogan42:45

        Right.

    15. JVJacques Vallée42:45

        ... that's where he's supposed to go.

    16. JRJoe Rogan42:48

        Yeah.

    17. JVJacques Vallée42:48

        But, y- you know, his, his mind is at a different level.

    18. JRJoe Rogan42:54

        Hmm.

    19. JVJacques Vallée42:54

        Uh, and-

    20. JRJoe Rogan42:56

        When did they first start researching this? And when did they believe that this was, uh, an ability that some people had?

    21. JVJacques Vallée43:04

        Oh, uh, you know, way back in antiquity.

    22. JRJoe Rogan43:08

        Really?

    23. JVJacques Vallée43:09

        Yeah. Uh, and, you know, they, they had, um, seers that, uh, the, the, the, the king would go consult, uh, uh, whether he, um, uh, he should engage in, in a war with-

    24. JRJoe Rogan43:31

        Right.

    25. JVJacques Vallée43:31

        ... uh, you know, they had... The, the Greeks had the Pythia, you know, who was, um, a, a woman who... They, they had an, an area, a volcanic area where there were fumes coming out of the earth, you know, that was supposed to be one of the doors to the underworld and so on. And there was a, a special, uh, cult around that, that place. And, uh, you know, the, the, the, the, the king would, uh, would go there before great decision and, and would, would ask the message from, you know, the, the underworld or the message from the, from the mind of the, the woman who was interpreting what was coming from the earth. So, th- that has been, you know, regarded as, um, uh... You know, um, Hitler, Adolf Hitler, uh, was, uh, in, in his... Ear- before the war, you know, as, uh, when he got to be the leader of, uh, of Germany, he, he exhibited and he very much believed in those, th- those powers. I, I think he got to the point where he trusted it too much (laughs) .

    26. JRJoe Rogan44:54

        Yeah.

    27. JVJacques Vallée44:54

        And started making mistakes, and that could be used against him. Because the ego-

    28. JRJoe Rogan44:59

        Well, he was also doing a lot of drugs.

    29. JVJacques Vallée44:59

        You know, you have to-

    30. JRJoe Rogan45:00

        Yeah.
11. 48:08 – 51:41

    France’s UFO investigation model: 95% explained, 5% ‘in your face’ cases

    1. JVJacques Vallée48:08

       And they also... A- as, as you know, France has had, for a long time, has had a, a project on UFOs, official project, uh, and, uh, that takes reports from the public, and they investigate them. And they... It's a very small team, but they have access to all the resources of French research, so they can...... you know, they can get the weather people, they can get the, you know, the air force, they can get the radar people. They can get all of that. So they can tap into the resources of a lot of different departments of, of the government.

    2. JRJoe Rogan48:45

       Hmm.

    3. JVJacques Vallée48:46

       So, it's, it's, it's very powerful. So, they, uh, they will explain, they find a rational explanation for about 95% of all the reports.

    4. JRJoe Rogan48:57

       Hmm.

    5. JVJacques Vallée48:58

       Which is true. I, I agree with that. You know, I've been there and, uh...

    6. JRJoe Rogan49:02

       So it's about 95%-

    7. JVJacques Vallée49:04

       Yeah.

    8. JRJoe Rogan49:04

       ... you can explain away?

    9. JVJacques Vallée49:05

       Uh, it's not hoaxes. Uh, those are-

    10. JRJoe Rogan49:07

        Right.

    11. JVJacques Vallée49:07

        ... you, you know, people who really think that they've seen something unusual.

    12. JRJoe Rogan49:12

        Right.

    13. JVJacques Vallée49:13

        But what they... what was unusual to them may have been the moon rising through the fog and it looks like an elongated disc. And, and then after a while, it's, uh, uh, things change and so on. And they-

    14. JRJoe Rogan49:27

        Ball lightning.

    15. JVJacques Vallée49:28

        You know?

    16. JRJoe Rogan49:28

        Yeah, there's a few things.

    17. JVJacques Vallée49:29

        They, they really think they've seen a flying saucer coming over.

    18. JRJoe Rogan49:33

        Mm-hmm.

    19. JVJacques Vallée49:33

        Or they, uh, th- there are about 200 or 250 possible physical things which would... that really could surprise you. You know, that are unusual, that would create conditions under which a normal person would think that they are in the presence of a, a UFO. Then, you know, the, the, what's interesting is the other 5%.

    20. JRJoe Rogan49:58

        Yes.

    21. JVJacques Vallée49:58

        The other 5% is in your face. Uh, you know, I have, um, reports of, uh, something that moved like the Tic Tac, you know, from the, the French Air Force in the '50s.

    22. JRJoe Rogan50:13

        Mm-hmm.

    23. JVJacques Vallée50:13

        There was a, a, a French jet over Morocco that was flying and there was a, a radar tracking the jet. And I, I had the, the reports from the French Air Force with the chart. And that the thing, uh, he was chasing went up, you know, all in a fraction of a second, went to the top of the atmosphere, you know, just like the, the Nimitz case. So those things are not new. I mean, they've... they are in the files if you take the trouble to look at the files.

    24. JRJoe Rogan50:46

        And they're in the files far back enough in history that it's impossible to imagine human technology achieving these things.

    25. JVJacques Vallée50:53

        A- absolutely.

    26. JRJoe Rogan50:55

        Yeah.

    27. JVJacques Vallée50:55

        Well, especially in the '50s. I mean-

    28. JRJoe Rogan50:56

        Right. Well, the Kenneth Arnold case-

    29. JVJacques Vallée50:58

        ... they didn't have anything that had gone into space.

    30. JRJoe Rogan51:00

        Yeah. There's, there's a bunch of cases that rule out the possibility of human technology when you're talking about people using propeller planes and, and seeing these things.
12. 51:41 – 1:11:43

    UFOs in culture and history: tokens, paintings, cave art—and strict evidentiary rules

    1. JRJoe Rogan51:41

       fascinating things. I, I told you last night that I consumed three of your books in the last six months. And, um, the, the, the... there was this, this series of three that you did that had a bunch of different encounters. Uh, not just... so right now I'm on The Invisible College, but the last ones that I read were, um, the ones on various contacts that people have had and the-

    2. JVJacques Vallée52:04

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan52:04

       ... similarity of these stories. And they go way back, way back, way back before it was sort of a cultural artifact. Like, right now, I think in people's minds, the gray aliens are so iconic, a flying saucer like that, the... that's a copy of, uh, the-

    4. JVJacques Vallée52:22

       Yep.

    5. JRJoe Rogan52:22

       ... sport model from Bob Lazar's adventures. The, these things are i- in pop culture to the point where you almost would expect to see them. You know, you look for them. You... i- if you see something, you could imagine, that you could d- twist it up in your mind and make it like that. But the problem is these stories go way before that. They're, they're too similar. They go a long, long way back and there's too many that are, uh, very, very similar to what we're talking about today, to the point where a rational person would have to say, "Maybe there's something more to this." What do you got there?

    6. JVJacques Vallée53:05

       Yeah, I, I brought you this. Uh, it's a token. It's not a coin, it's a token from Burgundy in France, from the, you know, the... a few centuries ago. The, the Duke of, um, Burgundy was under attack. There was a lot of, uh, uh, turmoil in French politics and the king was fighting the, the, the, the, the noble, uh, the, the great nobility and so on was in, in cahoots to get rid of the king and so on. And they were going to be attacked and he needed money to raise an army and he appealed to, uh, people in Burgundy to send him money. And, uh, this was a token that, uh, that they would... the, the, the, the, the king, the, uh, the duke, you know, would give people who had given him money to raise this army. And o- on, on the face of it is this disc.

    7. JRJoe Rogan54:10

       Yeah.

    8. JVJacques Vallée54:11

       That's holding up... um, that's protecting the land from forces above. You know, there are all these arrows raining down on the land and the land is protected by this flying disc. So it, it doesn't mean that they had seen a flying saucer in... at, at that time. But the idea has always been there of, uh, you know-... disc-like objects that were, that were not meteors, that were not, you know, all the-

    9. JRJoe Rogan54:44

       Right.

    10. JVJacques Vallée54:45

        ... natural explanation, that, that were real discs. You, you find that in legends, you find that in, you know, in history way, way back.

    11. JRJoe Rogan54:53

        Jimmy, can you see if you could find an image of this we could show people? You found it? Yeah, that's it.

    12. JVJacques Vallée54:57

        Yep. Yes.

    13. JRJoe Rogan55:00

        Wow.

    14. JVJacques Vallée55:02

        And, uh, you see, it's, it's protecting the land, uh, and it's hovering in the sky, uh, protecting it from all the thunder clouds above. Well, you know, there were a few of those things in, in history. And, you know, I've, I've... as you know, I've collected those with... I have-

    15. JRJoe Rogan55:23

        Couldn't-

    16. JVJacques Vallée55:23

        ... with, uh, uh, a group of, uh-

    17. JRJoe Rogan55:26

        Couldn't that be interpreted as a shield?

    18. JVJacques Vallée55:29

        Um, well, it, it is shown as a, as a shield, you know, that's going to stop all those arrows.

    19. JRJoe Rogan55:36

        Right. But, but that's what they used to stop arrows back then. They used a shield.

    20. JVJacques Vallée55:41

        Yes, yes.

    21. JRJoe Rogan55:41

        So, so doesn't that just make... I mean, th- that doesn't seem to me to be a UFO. It seems to me to be a shield that they would protect...

    22. JVJacques Vallée55:48

        Y- y- yes, but it's, it's also, you know, the... it's not exactly the shape of a, a, a... you know, of a, of a shield. Most sh- uh, shields are, you know, more oblong, but some of them are round. But it... the point is, it's hovering in the sky, protecting the land underneath.

    23. JRJoe Rogan56:10

        Hmm. Okay.

    24. JVJacques Vallée56:12

        And, uh-

    25. JRJoe Rogan56:14

        I think some of the more compelling stuff is, like, the stuff in the ancient Hindu scripts, the, the vimanas and all these different flying crafts that people described. They've always been a thing that people have described.

    26. JVJacques Vallée56:26

        And, and w- we've been able to trace it to actual investigations or actual records, because, of course, when people describe something like that, especially if there was some sort of being associated with it-

    27. JRJoe Rogan56:42

        Yeah.

    28. JVJacques Vallée56:42

        ... you know, it could be the devil, it could be-

    29. JRJoe Rogan56:44

        Right, right.

    30. JVJacques Vallée56:45

        So they had to see a priest and confess and, and, you know, and they were in trouble if you reported that thing. Most, most of the time, you'd be in trouble.
13. 1:11:43 – 1:34:07

    Trinity, Socorro, Valensole: egg-shaped craft, humanoids, and physical traces

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:11:43

       Okay. Okay. Um, so there's also a bunch of depictions of egg-shaped crafts.

    2. JVJacques Vallée1:11:52

       Yes.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:11:53

       This is very common as well, right?

    4. JVJacques Vallée1:11:55

       Yes.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:11:56

       And, um, the, the couple that you, uh, had in one of your books from... Was it The Mining People from, um... was it California or was it U- was it Nevada?

    6. JVJacques Vallée1:12:08

       I, I, uh, wrote a book, um-

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:12:12

       The Shapings?

    8. JVJacques Vallée1:12:13

       ... with Paola Harris called Trinity about an egg-shaped object that happened in 1945 near, uh, White Sands.... that, uh, now we have reinvestigated it. The first book was criticized and, you know, appropriately by someone who said I hadn't gone to enough of the written records. Well, now I've done that, so we've republished the, the book. It's called Trinity, and it, it covers three cases. In all three cases, the object is egg-shaped, the size of a, a medium-sized truck, okay? Uh, it would fit in this room. You know, it would be ab- about the size of this room. Um, then there is a case in Socorro and there is a case in Valensole. Socorro and Valensole... And, and people have concentrated on the first one, you know, the one that... because it's, it, it's two years before Roswell and there were witnesses there, you know? In Roswell, there were no witnesses. There were people who came later who found the stuff and they reconstructed the story and it's a very interesting story. But at, um, Trinity, they saw it arrive and they saw it crash, and they were there for 10 days afterwards, uh, watching the recovery. So we... And they went inside. Uh, one of them went inside and his father went inside also. So we have a very rich description of that. And where is it in the literature? Nowhere. I mean, I know Paola Harris found this, con- did research for four years on that, and then told me about it and then we did another four years of research together at, at the site and we found a lot of correlations. But they are... The Socorro case and the Valensole case-

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:14:14

       Could you, could you explain, tell me before we move on to that, those other cases, what correlations did you find?

    10. JVJacques Vallée1:14:19

        Well, uh, the... In all three cases, it's an egg-shaped object. In all three cases, there are traces that could be seen, could be, uh, um, described, could be, uh, analyzed. In all three cases, the beings are short. They are, you know, about, uh, uh, th- three feet, three and a half feet. They breathe air. Now, what kind of extraterrestrial is that-

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:14:52

        Right.

    12. JVJacques Vallée1:14:52

        ... that comes here and breathes the air, okay? We don't go... If we go to the moon, we're not going to breathe the air and we wouldn't know how-

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:14:58

        How do we know that it breathes at all?

    14. JVJacques Vallée1:15:00

        Hmm?

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:15:00

        How do, how do we know that these things breathe at all? Just because they...

    16. JVJacques Vallée1:15:03

        Well, they had no breathing-

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:15:04

        Right.

    18. JVJacques Vallée1:15:05

        ... equipment.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:15:05

        But how do we even know that they're-

    20. JVJacques Vallée1:15:06

        They were functioning normally.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:15:07

        ... biological?

    22. JVJacques Vallée1:15:08

        They had two eyes, uh, a small nose-

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:15:11

        Mm-hmm.

    24. JVJacques Vallée1:15:11

        ... a small mouth.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:15:12

        But couldn't they possibly be some sort of, uh, a creation? Instead of, uh, being a biological entity, couldn't they be some sort of artificial life?

    26. JVJacques Vallée1:15:21

        So I, I've, um, I've asked, uh, uh, uh, Gary Nolan about that, you know? I mean-

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:15:28

        Yeah.

    28. JVJacques Vallée1:15:28

        ... I'm not a biologist. And, um, I think i- it would be known if somebody had created, uh, uh, m- meta human-

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:15:41

        I don't mean somebody. I mean-

    30. JVJacques Vallée1:15:42

        But, well...
14. 1:34:07 – 1:52:48

    Unusual physical evidence: the 1977 molten steel ‘fall’ and publishing real forensics

    1. JVJacques Vallée1:34:07

       And, um, again, uh, you know... I- I brought you something. Can I tell you about it?

    2. NANarrator1:34:12

       Sure. What'd you bring?

    3. JVJacques Vallée1:34:13

       So this is something that, uh, the case was so interesting that Dr. Nolan and I and a couple of friends wrote it up and published it in the prime, uh, astronautics review in- in the world, okay? It's... Uh, so after... Uh, it took a couple of years for them to a- agree to look at it and so on, to look at the analysis. This happened in a suburb of Omaha, Nebraska. But on the Iowa side. There is this town, this suburb with a park. This is, uh, about- about a week before Christmas in 1977. Okay? Um, people are there having a good time in the park in the evening. It's- it's getting, you know, it's getting dark and... Um, and, um, I want to make sure I'm... Yeah. Um, the- they see something in the sky that looks like one of those boxes there. You know, it looks like a- a- a round box with- with lights around it and the lights are going- are going around sort of, and- and it's- it's pretty high and it's flying over the- the town. Um, and then a- a mass of steel, liquid steel falls in the park. It falls on the levee in the park. There is about a half a ton of it, liquid, glowing. I- it has nothing, no business being there. So you- you have this mass of metal. Uh, obviously they call the-

    4. NANarrator1:36:15

       So it's glowing. You're saying it's molten? So it's liquid that's hot.

    5. JVJacques Vallée1:36:16

       Yes. The weather is freezing.

    6. NANarrator1:36:18

       Okay.

    7. JVJacques Vallée1:36:18

       We know the temperature and everything else. It's freezing. The- the grass is on fire around it. They call the firemen. The firemen call the police. The police gets there and the firemen get there. They- they stop the fire. The fire is, you know, would have died by itself. There's no- no problem there. They take pictures of the thing glowing. I have the pictures, infrared.... uh, uh, uh, no, uh, Pa- Polaroid pictures of the- of- of the- the thing glowing in the grass, burning. Uh, I mean liquid. And, uh, it's going to stay liquid for a couple of hours and it cools down gradually and then people take pieces of it as souvenirs. So I have the pieces of it and there they are. Now, um, uh, there was analysis done by two labs. Obviously, the question is, where- where did that come from? I mean, uh, you know... Uh, and, uh, there is chromium, titanium and iron, which you can find in ordinary steel, but this isn't really... the composition isn't exactly what you'd expect industrial steel to be. So one of the chemical analyses is done at the lab, you know, for a, um, uh, for industrial steel. Uh, the investigators call the- the company. The company ha- says, "Yes, we make, you know, steel, uh, so we have furnaces but we empty the- the- the furnaces as this is over a weekend, the factory's closed. There would be nobody there, you know, and so they know liquid- know liquid steel in- in our factory-"

Episode duration: 2:47:47