Joe Rogan Experience #2292 - Josh Waitzkin

Narrator 0:00 (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) Whenever someone is a, like, an interesting person, and then I find out they do jujitsu too, "Oh, I could talk to that guy, for sure."

Josh Waitzkin 0:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:21 You know? (laughs)

Josh Waitzkin 0:23 (laughs) Jiu-jitsu-

Joe Rogan 0:23 You know, like, I get excited when interesting people do jujitsu, because I think, uh, for the outsider, to a lot of people that are, you know, they, they haven't been exposed to what it's like to train and what it's like to be around high level jujitsu people, they don't, uh, they don't know that vibe. They don't know what it's like. Like, they don't know the, um, the beauty of jujitsu. I feel like b- bea- jujitsu is beautiful for people who practice it, you know? Like, you see, like, Marcelo's a great example, your, your coach. You know, Marcelo is probably one of the most beautiful guys to watch, because he just takes advantage of these scrambles in this, like, really beautiful way, like fast and, and slippery. And when the opponents react, he reacts in the other way. It's all just technique and flow. It's like, "Ah!" Like, the first time I ever saw him, I saw him live in 2003 in Abu Dhabi, and, uh, it was when he fought Shaolin. That was the first time I'd ever seen him, uh, in the flesh. I didn't even-

Josh Waitzkin 1:25 And then choked him out in, like, eight seconds, 10 seconds.

Joe Rogan 1:27 Oh, my God.

Josh Waitzkin 1:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:27 It was the most crazy scramble.

Josh Waitzkin 1:28 Incredible.

Joe Rogan 1:28 But no one even knew him. No one knew of him, other than... You know, he was o- obviously a r- I think he was a brown belt at the time. I don't even think he was a black belt. I think Marcelo might've been a brown belt.

Josh Waitzkin 1:39 I- i- it's interesting. I didn't... In 2003. Maybe.

Joe Rogan 1:41 So find that out. Was Marcelo a brown belt when he won Abu Dhabi in 2003? He may have... Eddie Bravo was a brown belt when he tapped out Royler.

Josh Waitzkin 1:48 He told me recently that right before that fight, his, um, like, his grips had locked up. So he ca- Went into that fight... It looks incredible, just that arm drag, take the back, choked him out in seconds.

Joe Rogan 1:58 His, like, hands?

Josh Waitzkin 1:58 Yeah, his, like, grips from the fight before were like...

Joe Rogan 2:00 Oh, wow.

Josh Waitzkin 2:01 Yeah. W- wh- When, when Eddie beat Royler, he was a brown belt?

Joe Rogan 2:05 Yep.

Josh Waitzkin 2:06 Wow.

Joe Rogan 2:06 Yeah, m- uh, Jean Jacques took his black belt-

Josh Waitzkin 2:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:09 ... off of his own waist-

Josh Waitzkin 2:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:11 ... and put it on Eddie.

Josh Waitzkin 2:12 Amazing, amazing.

Joe Rogan 2:14 Dude.

Josh Waitzkin 2:14 That's epic. So yeah, it's funny. Uh, my background... Uh, we have a lot of overlap in our early jujitsu education, 'cause my first teacher was John Machado.

Joe Rogan 2:21 Oh, okay.

Josh Waitzkin 2:23 Jean Jacques' brother.

Joe Rogan 2:23 Yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 2:23 And I spent years training with John in LA, um, long before I... and then I... Yeah. It wa-

Joe Rogan 2:30 And then when did... When, when did you move to New York?

Josh Waitzkin 2:33 So I moved to New York. Um, I sta- I think I started training with John... So I was doing s- um, Chinese martial arts for a bunch of years before that, competing everywhere.

Joe Rogan 2:39 Right.

Josh Waitzkin 2:39 And then I started training, cross-training with John in, I think, 2001, 2002. And then early 2005, moved back to New York, started training with Marco Santos, um, in his school in New York. And I, I was training with (Chinese name) and (Chinese name) . (Chinese name) is an amazing old school (Portuguese) .

Joe Rogan 2:56 Mm-hmm.

Josh Waitzkin 2:57 Um, like, you know, amazing fighter. And, um, and I was also cross-training with Lucas Lepri at the time. And I was... I needed... I, I was just ready to... And then I met Marcelo, and I was... And he m- he had moved from New York to Florida, and I was traveling to Florida to train with Marcelo a bunch, and I, I wanted to be pushed all in. And, um, Marcelo and I had gotten really close, and then I, I just said to him, "Hey man, you, you know, you wanna... You wanna come back to New York and open a school together?" And he really loved New York, and, um, we'd gotten very close at this point.

Joe Rogan 3:29 Where was he at the time?

Josh Waitzkin 3:30 He was in Florida. He was in New York before. He'd, he loved New York, but then he had to move to Florida. Um, he'd been... There was just a lot of jujitsu politics flowing everywhere, as, as it does.

Joe Rogan 3:40 Oh, jujitsu politics.

Josh Waitzkin 3:41 The worst. And, um-

Joe Rogan 3:43 (laughs)

Josh Waitzkin 3:43 Yeah, anyway, long story short, we opened a school together in, uh, after that, and, um, and it was amazing. And then I spent so many years all in, um, training with him. Most... Such, such a beautiful, beautiful martial artist.

Joe Rogan 3:55 Um, so in 2002, he was promoted to black belt. So he was already a black belt.

Josh Waitzkin 3:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:59 Because this is 2003.

Josh Waitzkin 4:01 Yeah. That sounds right.

Joe Rogan 4:02 Okay. So he had only been a black belt for a year and won Abu Dhabi, which is pretty crazy. Pretty crazy. Just that. I mean, didn't just beat Shaolin, won the entire division, and just looked like no one, anybody had ever seen. Just the scrambles, and his ability to arm drag and take the back, and then once he gets to your side, the ability to transition to the back is just phenomenal.

Josh Waitzkin 4:28 And he spends his, his, like, his, his whole jujitsu life, he spent in the scramble, in transition.

Joe Rogan 4:33 Mm-hmm.

Josh Waitzkin 4:33 And that was really a, a philosophy of his. Y- you, have you seen that old, um, old school Arte Suave clip? Remember the old documentaries, Arte Suave?

Joe Rogan 4:41 Mm-hmm.

Josh Waitzkin 4:41 From back, back in the day, around him at, as a young teenager, training at Faber Grizels school in, in Sao Paolo.

Joe Rogan 4:47 Ah.

Josh Waitzkin 4:47 And it was so interesting, 'cause even then, you could see him. He never held position. He always let opponents move. It'd be fun to pull that up maybe and at one point show-

Joe Rogan 4:53 Interesting.

Josh Waitzkin 4:54 Like, he, he, he never... His... A core f- principle of his was to allow the opponent to move and spend as much training time as possible in transition. And, uh, while most jujitsu guys, as you know, as they're coming up-

Joe Rogan 5:06 Control.

Josh Waitzkin 5:06 ... with their own egos, they're controlling, they're holding guys.

Joe Rogan 5:08 Yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 5:09 And, um-

Narrator 5:10 Man: Is this him? I don't...

Josh Waitzkin 5:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:12 In the... This, is this him?

Josh Waitzkin 5:14 Yeah, Arte Suave.

Joe Rogan 5:14 Oh, he's already a black belt year.

Josh Waitzkin 5:16 Yeah, this is after he moved to, um, start training with Fabio in, in Sao Paolo. And this is... It's just a beautiful thing, 'cause if you watch his, his style, he's... Not in this moment, actually. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:30 Now he's fully controlling.

Josh Waitzkin 5:30 Now, now he's fully controlling.

Joe Rogan 5:32 (laughs) But most of the time, he's scrambling.

Josh Waitzkin 5:34 Yeah, he's scrambling. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:34 Did he explain why?

Josh Waitzkin 5:37 Well, you're maximizing time spent in the in-between. I mean, I, I, I think in the martial arts, people are so focused on position when they're learning, position, position, position. But the in-between is where the real virtuosity happens, don't you-

Joe Rogan 5:47 Mm-hmm. Interesting.

Josh Waitzkin 5:49 And so he spent... He maximized his time in the in-between.

Joe Rogan 5:52 So in standup fighting, that would be, like, footwork and angles. It'd be similar to that, 'cause the most important thing about-... any kind of combat sport, in terms of, uh, striking sports, is to be in a better position to land a shot and be in a better position to defend. So if you're fighting southpaw to orthodox, you always want to make sure that if you're southpaw, your foot is on the outside of your opponent's leg. That way, your opponent has to kind of cross over try to hit you, but you're in a position to hit them on the blind side. And the best ever at that is, uh, Vasily Lomachenko. Because Lomachenko, when he was young, his father made him stop boxing for two years and just study Ukrainian dance.

Josh Waitzkin 6:36 Really?

Joe Rogan 6:36 Mm-hmm. So for two years, he just did Ukrainian dance. And his foot ... Have you ever seen him box?

Josh Waitzkin 6:41 No.

Joe Rogan 6:42 Oh, my God. Pull up, uh, Lomachenko highlight.

Josh Waitzkin 6:45 Mm.

Joe Rogan 6:46 It's all about m- movement and position with this guy. It's all about when you punch, he's going to make you react this way, and then he's going to go that way, and then he's going to spin sideways, and he'll be behind you. Th- so this is Lomachenko. Like, the way he moves is so different. It's almost like, it's almost like his ... He's got just a, a, a dr- a radar for, like, where their, where their punches are coming from and knows exactly where to put his feet at all times. No matter what they do, he knows what they're gonna do. But when you watch his, like, footwork, it's the most extraordinary thing. Because his ability to give you all sorts of different reads, like, incredible.

Josh Waitzkin 7:29 Mm.

Joe Rogan 7:30 I mean, he won a world title, I think, in his fourth pro fight. Unbelievable amateur record. But it's th- it's just the movement. Like, he's never right in front of you. He's always off to the side, he's always moving around, he jumps in and out, and it's, it's with perfect precision. Like, a lot of times when guys do a lot of footwork and movement, there's points in that transition where they're off balance, where they can't really throw a punch, or their footwork is out of position, or they're leaning too far over on this side. He's never off balance.

Josh Waitzkin 8:06 Mm.

Joe Rogan 8:06 He's never out of position. He's always slide a side, pop up, slide a side, pop up. And h- you never know where the fuck he is. He's a magician. It's fascinating to watch him fight, and very few people have tried to incorporate that. Like, you see some of his movement. (laughs)

Josh Waitzkin 8:25 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 8:26 It's just the way he's able to fool the best fighters in the world and just have a level of, of movement that they just don't really understand what to do with. They just ... They get baffled by it, 'cause everything is coming from different angles. It's never, "I'm charging straight forward at you trying to destroy you." Everything is angles and movement.

Josh Waitzkin 8:52 Virtuosity is so beautiful to watch.

Joe Rogan 8:54 Oh, it's incredible.

Josh Waitzkin 8:55 In anything.

Joe Rogan 8:56 In anything.

Josh Waitzkin 8:57 Anything, yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:57 In anything. When you watch someone who's just unbelievably extraordinary and unique in their ... whatever their discipline is, it's always fascinating to watch. This episode is brought to you by Intuit TurboTax. We're all just trying to level up, right? I'm always trying to push myself, whether it's training, learning something new, or just trying to be a better human. You put in work physically, mentally. And over time, you evolve. It's 2025. Doing your taxes has evolved, too. Just like we put in the work to level up, TurboTax has put in the work to make taxes effortless. Because now, taxes is getting matched up with a TurboTax live expert who has the latest tech. With that, they can cross-check millions of data points to make sure that your return is 100% accurate. That means you get the best possible outcome this tax season for your unique tax situation, all while you go about your day. It's 2025. It's time to file like it. Now, this is taxes Intuit TurboTax. Get an expert now at turbotax.com.

Josh Waitzkin 10:06 One way I relate to the transitional training is through frames. It's like a, it's like a process of building more frames. We position, reposition, and for some people, there'll be n- no space in between. But if you spend your time playing in the transitional space between, you build up frames, like an illusionist. I, I know you ... Like, when you-

Joe Rogan 10:22 Mm-hmm.

Josh Waitzkin 10:22 Remember you spoke to Derren Brown back in the day?

Joe Rogan 10:24 Yes.

Josh Waitzkin 10:25 Like, i- you know, great illusionists, magicians, mind control guys, they have the ability to see in frames that we don't have the ability to see in. So it seems like magic. It seems like illusion.

Joe Rogan 10:34 Yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 10:34 When martial artists are called mystical, right? It's 'cause people don't understand what they're doing, for the most part, technically, and they have frames where others don't have frames.

Joe Rogan 10:45 Hmm. So they have more options, more po- It's like having a language and you have an access to a larger vocabulary.

Josh Waitzkin 10:52 Yeah. Yeah, I think-

Joe Rogan 10:53 Yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 10:53 I think that that's right.

Joe Rogan 10:54 Yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 10:54 I think that's right. And peop- Well, it's like, if you think about it, you're engaging with an illusionist who has done something, has spent hundreds of hours in a certain specific routine, and you're seeing it for the first time.

Joe Rogan 11:06 Mm-hmm.

Josh Waitzkin 11:07 They just have immense knowledge where you have none. They have more frames, and they can play in frames that you don't have. And it seems like something's coming from, from the, from the sky.

Joe Rogan 11:16 Well, that's where Eddie Bravo had a pretty significant contribution to jujitsu, because he was so creative in some of his attacks and some of the things that he developed, particularly off his back. Like, the rubber guard variations, they were so systematic and so, like ... If you got good at it, it was surprising to anybody who didn't understand what you were doing, because they didn't know these positions well.

Josh Waitzkin 11:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:42 So if you got ... Like, there's this kid named Jeremiah Vance who's one of Eddie's best guard players, and there's a highlight reel of his, uh, submissions off of his back, his rubber guard submissions.

Josh Waitzkin 11:53 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:53 And if you don't have a person that you train with ... If you trained at a traditional school and you don't understand these positions, you don't know how good someone can be at it, there's times where you don't think you're vulnerable where you're incredibly vulnerable. Like ...... the difference between a really good guard player in MMA, and a b- ... Like, Paul Craig for example, he submitted some of the best two, two world champions off of his back in the light heavyweight division. Jamahal Hill and the current champion, Ankalaev. Ankalaev's only defeat is to Paul Craig, 'cause he's just wicked off of his back, so everybody feels comfortable. In MMA, there's only a couple guys, like Oliveira, you gotta really watch your Ps and Qs. There's a few guys that are just wicked off of their back, but no one's like Paul Craig. And so, if you're just used to fighting regular guys off of their back, and you get in guard, and you start ... You get a little cocky, you extend an arm to try to land a punch, and then all of a sudden, his legs are wrapped around your fucking neck. And you're like, "Oh, Jesus. How did this happen so quick?" 'Cause he's just got that technique, it's just so tightened up, just tap, it just locks it up so fast, and it's fascinating to watch the difference between like a really good guard player and someone that's just a regular MMA fighter who knows how to do a triangle but really doesn't have, like, the elaborate setups.

Josh Waitzkin 13:07 Many ways, that's, on a large scale, what, what Royce was doing back in the day, right?

Joe Rogan 13:10 Sure.

Josh Waitzkin 13:10 That's what I mean, but no one had-

Joe Rogan 13:12 Yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 13:12 ... any idea what he was going on.

Joe Rogan 13:12 No one had any idea what was going on.

Josh Waitzkin 13:12 They were grabbing his gi thing, they had a huge advantage. They-

Joe Rogan 13:15 Yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 13:15 But he ... They were entering his, his terrain. And then when, when, when we were training in the early days, there was so much close-mindedness about leg locks.

Joe Rogan 13:22 Mm-hmm.

Josh Waitzkin 13:23 So, the leg lock game was outside of the conceptual scheme to so many Jujitsu guys.

Joe Rogan 13:26 It was forbidden.

Josh Waitzkin 13:27 It was forbidden, so they'd get caught.

Joe Rogan 13:28 Yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 13:28 It's like that dogma, like, you're, like ... It, it's so interesting competitively finding where someone's dogma is-

Joe Rogan 13:34 Mm-hmm.

Josh Waitzkin 13:34 ... where their constructs or their, their false constructs.

Joe Rogan 13:36 Well, there's a good argument for it with the gi, with, uh, young guys.

Josh Waitzkin 13:41 Oh, for sure.

Joe Rogan 13:42 Yeah. Because-

Josh Waitzkin 13:43 Not just shredding each other's ankles all the time, you know?

Joe Rogan 13:45 Yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 13:45 You're not gonna be able to train.

Joe Rogan 13:45 Ripping knees apart-

Josh Waitzkin 13:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:46 ... where they're not gonna be able to be b- repaired. You know? I mean, how many people have ruined their knees forever from a heel hook?

Josh Waitzkin 13:52 Oh, my God.

Joe Rogan 13:52 A large number.

Josh Waitzkin 13:53 Right.

Joe Rogan 13:54 I would, I would imagine if there's any technique that sort of ruined an athlete's career, the heel hook would probably be number one.

Josh Waitzkin 13:59 Heel hook is why I started training Jujitsu.

Joe Rogan 14:01 Really?

Josh Waitzkin 14:02 Yeah. Because I was doing standup stuff and I was competing everywhere, and my ... I, I was doing Chinese martial arts, and my teacher's son, Max Chen, who was a ... He was a Sanshou fighter, and, um, on the Olympic t- ... On the U.S. National Team, really good standup fighter, and he was studying UFC before I had even looked at it. And then he was studying, I think it was Frank Sharmarock's double heel hook shit-

Joe Rogan 14:22 Hmm.

Josh Waitzkin 14:22 ... from way early days. And he was just like, "Let's, let's just continue to the ground." And I had never ground fought before, and I ended up on the ground and he just put me into heel hooks, and double heel hooks, and my knees were exploding. He had no idea what the fuck he was doing.

Joe Rogan 14:33 Oh, no.

Josh Waitzkin 14:33 Terrible idea.

Joe Rogan 14:34 Oh, no.

Josh Waitzkin 14:35 My knees were just screaming, and, and I would throw him on the floor, and then I'd be tap ... I didn't even know what tapping out was. I, I had never grappled before.

Joe Rogan 14:42 Oh, no.

Josh Waitzkin 14:43 It-

Joe Rogan 14:43 You didn't even know how to grapplers-

Josh Waitzkin 14:44 I didn't know anything.

Joe Rogan 14:44 ... put you in a heel hook.

Josh Waitzkin 14:45 Nothing.

Joe Rogan 14:45 That's so awful.

Josh Waitzkin 14:45 So this ... The first submission I felt-

Joe Rogan 14:47 (laughs)

Josh Waitzkin 14:47 ... in my life was like the heel hook 20 times. Somehow, my ACL didn't shred and, um, I was like, "I have to fucking train this Jujitsu, like, 'cause Max is kicking my ass." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:56 Yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 14:56 And I didn't like it. So then, that's how it all began, the heel hook.

Joe Rogan 14:58 Well, w- w- hoist was brilliant in wearing the gi because-

Josh Waitzkin 15:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:02 ... it made people grab it.

Josh Waitzkin 15:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:04 They thought they had an advantage-

Josh Waitzkin 15:05 And he would ... And-

Joe Rogan 15:05 ... that he had something to grab. And next thing you know, he's like clenched around you (laughs) and dragged you to the ground.

Josh Waitzkin 15:10 It's an amazing idea, right? Like, they had no idea that they were entering his game, they thought they were controlling him.

Joe Rogan 15:14 Right.

Josh Waitzkin 15:14 And-

Joe Rogan 15:14 And they didn't understand that all that friction from the gi was-

Josh Waitzkin 15:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:17 ... gonna make it very difficult for you to get outta anything. You know? Just flipping out.

Josh Waitzkin 15:20 And he was so used to people grabbing him, he spent his life, people grabbing his gi.

Joe Rogan 15:22 Yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 15:23 Like, they entered his, his repertoire.

Joe Rogan 15:24 That changed the whole world, didn't it?

Josh Waitzkin 15:26 Oh, my God.

Joe Rogan 15:26 Changed the whole world.

Josh Waitzkin 15:27 It's awesome.

Joe Rogan 15:27 Changed what l- street fights look like, changed everything.

Josh Waitzkin 15:31 Those first, um ... Those first UFCs were just wild.

Joe Rogan 15:35 Nuts.

Josh Waitzkin 15:36 Wild. Just the bizarre ...

Joe Rogan 15:38 The first UFC I worked was UFC 12.

Josh Waitzkin 15:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:41 In Dothan, Alabama. Yeah. (laughs) I had to take a propeller plane, I had to fly into ... I think we flew into Birmingham or somewhere, and then we had to take a propeller plane to Dothan. I was like, "What am I doing?"

Josh Waitzkin 15:54 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:55 This is so ridiculous. But I wanted to just see it live, 'cause I'd only seen it on television. I'd only seen it ... I'd never seen a, like, a live cage fight before. I'm like, "This has gotta be crazy."

Josh Waitzkin 16:05 So, UFC 12, how long after the first was that?

Joe Rogan 16:08 Well, it was '97, so it was four years later.

Josh Waitzkin 16:10 Four years later?

Joe Rogan 16:11 Yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 16:11 Wow. Man, you've been on that, the journey from the beginning.

Joe Rogan 16:14 Yeah. It was like-

Josh Waitzkin 16:15 It's pathetic.

Joe Rogan 16:16 Everybody was like, "What are you doing?" (laughs) "Don't be associated with this." So many people were telling me not to be associated with it. It was, it was like I was doing snuff films or something, you know? It was like, "Why are you doing this? You're an actor." Like, I was like, "Okay. I don't know what to tell you."

Josh Waitzkin 16:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:31 "I like it."

Josh Waitzkin 16:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:32 "I wanna go watch." (laughs) I'd needed to see it. I needed to see it live.

Josh Waitzkin 16:35 And you were, were you training at that point in '97?

Joe Rogan 16:37 Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'd already started doing Jujitsu. I'd started Jujitsu in '96.

Josh Waitzkin 16:41 You were training at Rickson's then, right?

Joe Rogan 16:42 Started at Rickson's, and then I went from Rickson's to Carlson Gracies.

Josh Waitzkin 16:46 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 16:46 I didn't know, I, I thought all Gracies were the same. Like, this Gra- ... Oh, this Gracie's closer. Okay, well, this Gracie-

Josh Waitzkin 16:51 They all lo- they all love each other.

Joe Rogan 16:52 And I'd also ... (laughs)

Josh Waitzkin 16:53 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:53 Yeah, I didn't understand, they were fight- they were all tooth and claw at each other back then. Uh, I didn't know that, um ... I j- I knew, uh, Carlson's from, I think, the show was Extreme Fighting, the John Peretti show. So, John Peretti, who worked for the UFC, then branched off and had another thing called Extreme Fighting, and that's where Conan Silveira came from, and, um, a, a bunch of like elite, uh, UFC fighters. Mario Sperry fought his first fights over there. Um, so it was, it was like a really good competitive organization that was like right up there with the UFC back in the day. And so, I had ... Carlson Gracie's, uh, name was on that all the time, and they showed some training footage of them training, so I found out about that place, and that was right when Vitor Belfort was emerging. So, Vitor was 19, so I was training at the same-

Josh Waitzkin 17:45 He was amazing.

Joe Rogan 17:45 ... gym as Vitor.

Josh Waitzkin 17:46 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 17:46 It was incredible. Wa- just watching him train.

Josh Waitzkin 17:49 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 17:49 You know? He was a freak, like just an athletic freak at 19. He was so fast.

Josh Waitzkin 17:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:57 Just so fast, and so ... And with his hands, and everybody knew he was a black belt under Carlson Gracie, so everybody expected just Jujitsu, and this guy comes out with little MMA gloves on and just starts tuning people up on the feet.

Josh Waitzkin 18:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:11 And you're like, "Whoa."... a black belt who can do that? Like, where's this coming from? Like, this is a totally new thing. So, that was the first fight that I attended.

Josh Waitzkin 18:21 Mm.

Joe Rogan 18:21 And that was the first fight I worked.

Josh Waitzkin 18:23 Wow.

Joe Rogan 18:23 UFC 12.

Josh Waitzkin 18:24 Wow.

Joe Rogan 18:25 It was nuts.

Josh Waitzkin 18:26 This theme of, um, of transitions and developing frames where other people don't have them, like, it's, it's so interesting how it's manifest in, in every art.

Joe Rogan 18:33 In everything.

Josh Waitzkin 18:34 Like, I remember w- when I was playing chess, um, 'cause I was a chess player from age six to 23. That was my first, um, my first art. And-

Joe Rogan 18:42 Well, you weren't just a chess player, you were a chess player they made a movie about, dude. (laughs)

Josh Waitzkin 18:47 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:47 I k- (laughs) I kinda seen that too.

Josh Waitzkin 18:49 That hasn't, hasn't had much to do with me, man. They did that, but-

Joe Rogan 18:50 A little searching for Bobby Fischer's about you, bro.

Josh Waitzkin 18:53 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:54 You know, which has gotta be weird.

Josh Waitzkin 18:55 Many moons ago. That was fucking weird.

Joe Rogan 18:56 Was it weird, the dramatic representation of your life versus the real life? Like, what is that juxtaposition like? Like, is it wi- is it bizarre watching a fake version of you on television and d- or on, on a screen rather? And did you have, like, a feeling, like, "Am I that person? I'm not that person. Like, I am me. This is not really me, but it's about me"?

Josh Waitzkin 19:19 Yeah. So, the book came out when I was 11 years old. My dad actually wrote the book. Um, he was a writer, and he ended up just writing about the journey from me starting to play chess to winning my first national championship. And when the book came out, it felt like I read it, and it felt true. I was a little pissed off 'cause I didn't want people to know when I cried. I was an 11-year-old, I didn't wanna be vulnerable, right?

Joe Rogan 19:39 (laughs)

Josh Waitzkin 19:39 And, but, like, that felt like... And, and that was my first real thrust into the, into, like, some degree of spotlight. And then, and I was the national champion at that point, and I was each year for those years. So, like, I was at the top of the chess world, the youth chess world, and then I had the movie come out, the book come out. And then when the movie came out, it was a shit show. I, I hated the movie when it first came out.

Joe Rogan 19:58 Why'd you hate it?

Josh Waitzkin 19:59 Because I thought it had nothing to do with my life.

Joe Rogan 20:01 Mm.

Josh Waitzkin 20:02 Um, years later, I was able to see it as a work of art separate from my life and see it that way. And I was able to see how it was thematically true, in many ways, to theme, to, like, themes in my life.

Joe Rogan 20:17 Mm-hmm.

Josh Waitzkin 20:18 Um, but, like, my first teacher, Bruce Pendelfini, who's still a very dear friend of mine, Ben Kingsley played him as this mean guy.

Joe Rogan 20:25 Right.

Josh Waitzkin 20:25 And Bru- and I've had terrible coaches in my life. I've had coaches who were super destructive. But Bruce wasn't. He was beautiful and, um, and loving, and helped me discover my love for chess. My first coaches were the hustlers in Washington Square Park and Bruce Pendelfini together. And the way that was represented, I didn't like it.

Joe Rogan 20:41 Mm.

Josh Waitzkin 20:41 They also combined a bunch of characters in Washington Square Park, the hustlers, they co- combined them into one in a way that, you know, was thematically true, but didn't feel... So, like, when you're a kid, you're a teenager, you see all the difference that a movie comes out about your life, you see all the differences as opposed to the similarities. And it was, um... Yeah, and I felt really guilty about it relative to Bruce. That was a big part of it, 'cause I love Bruce.

Joe Rogan 21:04 Did you talk to him about it?

Josh Waitzkin 21:05 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:05 What did he, what was his take on it?

Josh Waitzkin 21:07 I mean, it-

Joe Rogan 21:08 Was he named Bruce in the movie?

Josh Waitzkin 21:09 Yeah, he was named Bruce in the movie, and-

Joe Rogan 21:11 When-

Josh Waitzkin 21:11 ... he, he, I mean, he, honestly, he loved it. I mean, he, it put him in the spotlight as, like, the, the chess teacher in, in, you know, in the country, in the world. Um, so he rolled with it really well. I was just sensitive to all of th- like, all these mean-spirited things that happened between us in the film-

Joe Rogan 21:27 Hm.

Josh Waitzkin 21:27 ... that never happened in life.

Joe Rogan 21:28 Right.

Josh Waitzkin 21:28 And years later, like, those things did happen to me. And actually, during those years, when it came out, they were happening to me then. What was interesting is I had some really destructive coaches during, during that time, and I didn't put that on, on Bruce. But also what happened with the movie is that I loved chess so deeply. It was my first form of self-expression. Um, and up until the film came out, it was just sort of this preconscious, innocent form of, of play, of battle, of, of, like, it was, it was my, it was my jujitsu match. It was, it was, I fucking loved it.

Joe Rogan 21:57 Mm.

Josh Waitzkin 21:58 And, and then it, the, the mo- the movie's what pulled me into self-consciousness for the first time. I started thinking about, instead of losing myself in thought, I started thinking about how I looked to groupies, to cameras, to-

Joe Rogan 22:09 Ah.

Josh Waitzkin 22:09 ... the present. So, like, I w- I moved from self-expression to self-consciousness to being locked up. And then, you know, and I didn't ask for it, I didn't decide I wanna have a movie. This thing was done. An- and it was ultimately, I mean, I'm, I'm grateful for it. It, from my perspective now, the existential crisis that happened was awesome for me. It forced me to become more complicated as a human-

Joe Rogan 22:30 Hm.

Josh Waitzkin 22:30 ... and integrate a sense of consciousness into my relationship to something. Um, so my perspective on it now is that it, it was a beautiful journey. It made me grapple with a lot of shit. I, I didn't become reliant on a flower garden in order to have a, a deep relationship to an art. Um, but at the time, I was very conflicted about it. And then when I graduated high school, I took off and left the US for a couple years, lived in Slovenia with my girlfriend at the time to get away from the spotlight, to get away from the media, get away from all the shit that was connected to the movie.

Joe Rogan 23:00 Hm.

Josh Waitzkin 23:01 And that was when I started studying East Asian philosophy and meditating and started reading Jack Kerouac and existentialist literature and trying to figure myself out, figure the world out, figure out how I related to these things in some empty space.

Joe Rogan 23:14 Well, it's a tremendous burden to place upon a young person, to take their life, which is essentially anonymous, you know, to the general public, you know, known in the chess world, obviously, but s- in the general public-

Josh Waitzkin 23:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:29 ... anonymous, and then all of a sudden, a movie star. And not a movie star in the sense that you're on the screen, but it's about you, which is probably even weirder. So, you have these false expectations or false, false narratives of how your life played out and who the people and who the pieces, and, and so everywhere you run into people, they have a version of you that they've seen that's not real.

Josh Waitzkin 23:53 And they think they know you very intimately.

Joe Rogan 23:55 Which is weird.

Josh Waitzkin 23:55 But they don't. And the same, I mean, with you, where you're so public, right? Everyone, probably most people think they know who, who you are and what you think.

Joe Rogan 24:01 But at least they know me from me talking.

Josh Waitzkin 24:04 Yeah, that's a really good point.

Joe Rogan 24:04 They don't know me... Imagine if, like, Mario Lopez played me in a movie.

Josh Waitzkin 24:09 Right. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:09 (laughs) You know what I mean? There was someone, someone le- less handsome than Mario Lopez.

Josh Waitzkin 24:13 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:13 But, and then you would have this thing where, like, "Oh, you're the guy that that guy played in the movie." And I'd be like, "Yeah, but that's not."... really, I don't, that's not really me. I don't really, I didn't have that problem. This is not real.

Josh Waitzkin 24:26 Right.

Joe Rogan 24:27 That's fake.

Josh Waitzkin 24:27 And also, when you're a teenager, you're susceptible to all of the, the temptations, right?

Joe Rogan 24:31 Oh, yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 24:31 Like, I mean, suddenly you've got groupies everywhere, and that's awesome, (laughs) and it's a lot of fun. But it does not necessarily, it's not necessarily consistent with sitting for six hours at a time in competition playing chess.

Joe Rogan 24:42 No.

Josh Waitzkin 24:42 With, like-

Joe Rogan 24:43 It's probably destructive to it, right?

Josh Waitzkin 24:44 Qu- quite destructive, yeah, which is interesting. And you have to integrate all of that.

Joe Rogan 24:47 How old were you when the film came out?

Josh Waitzkin 24:49 15.

Joe Rogan 24:50 Yeah, that is a crazy time to get any kind of attention. 'Cause you're-

Josh Waitzkin 24:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:55 ... you're just getting testosterone for the first time. You're like, "What is all this?" Right?

Josh Waitzkin 24:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:58 And your, your body's growing. It was kind of-

Josh Waitzkin 25:00 And it was flowing hard. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 25:01 Yeah, and you're becoming a man. Now all a sudden, girls like you. Like, "What?"

Josh Waitzkin 25:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:04 "What is this about? This is craziness."

Josh Waitzkin 25:07 I already had a very strange life because... And I think, like, a foundational part of my psychology came from... So, I started playing chess when I was six years old. When I w- by the time I was seven, I was the top-rated player f- for my age in the country. My first national championship, I got my ass kicked, which was tremendous. It was great. Last round, I lost the f- th- last round of my first nationals, I lost to the guy who l- later became my best friend for many, many years, David Arnett.

Joe Rogan 25:32 And you say tremendous because... Was that, uh, like, a jumping point for improvement for you?

Josh Waitzkin 25:37 Because I didn't learn that I could win without getting my ass kicked first.

Joe Rogan 25:42 Hmm.

Josh Waitzkin 25:42 I, I had to grapple with my demons. And, um, I relate... I, the year from then to winning my nationals, my first nationals the next year, was when I really developed a love for chess. And I had to work very hard, and I didn't associate winning the nationals with talent or, um, a smooth trip or all the bullshit that people can connect when they have... when they're, when they're called a prodigy from the outside.

Joe Rogan 26:08 Mm-hmm.

Josh Waitzkin 26:08 It's not a term I ever related to myself at all. But, like, when they're... These labels are put on from the outside. And if you win too fast, too, too young, you can just develop this relationship to, this brittle relationship to success-

Joe Rogan 26:21 Hmm.

Josh Waitzkin 26:21 ... and to work, uh, and to training, and to everything, right? You don't, you don't realize that getting your ass kicked is a huge part of, of the journey.

Joe Rogan 26:27 That's a problem with very talented fighters as well, a lot of very talented martial artists. They never develop the discipline to truly become great because, like, from the very beginning, they had an... Whatever the advantage was, whether it's a speed advantage, a strength advantage. I mean, genetics plays such a large part in, um, martial arts success, you know? If you have someone who's an elite mind, who is incredibly disciplined and also has great genetics, you get a Mike Tyson.

Josh Waitzkin 26:59 Oh, that's amazing-

Joe Rogan 27:00 Yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 27:00 ... if you have that combination.

Joe Rogan 27:01 Yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 27:01 That's what you're looking for.

Joe Rogan 27:02 That's what you're looking for. But if you don't have that, and Mike Tyson is competing in your division, you're fucked. (laughs) Like, you-

Josh Waitzkin 27:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:09 ... you can be really disciplined, but, like, so genetics do have a f- they do play a factor. Circumstances, coaching, uh, there, there's a lot of different factors. But if you're a real prodigy, and there are people out there that are just extraordinary from the beginning, I find that if success comes too quickly, you don't develop the mettle to really push through boundaries and reach new levels. Because the only way you get there is through... You, you have to r- I think oftentimes training becomes, it becomes regimented. It becomes something you do. You see incremental growth and improvement. You get confidence. You're, you're g- But then, when you compete, if you get your ass kicked, then you have to kind of reassess everything. Like, "Okay, w- was I working at 10:00, or was I working at 8:00? Was I, was I studying tape, or was I fucking off and, and calling girls?" You know, "Was I paying attention to my training routine and my recovery, or was I just training and partying?" Like, "What was I doing wrong?" Like, "What led this person to land those shots? What led this person to beat me?"

Josh Waitzkin 28:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:12 And if you don't have those moments where you lose, I don't think you ever really achieve your true potential because you have to be challenged. And the best expression of challenge is total humiliating defeat.

Josh Waitzkin 28:23 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 28:24 Yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 28:24 And, and, and so consistently, the, the biggest losses, the most crushing losses are what lead to the biggest wins later.

Joe Rogan 28:30 Yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 28:30 Some- sometimes many years later, but it, it, like, that... And people often, um... I remember I was giving a simultaneous chess exhibition for charity one, you know, in my 20s somewhere. And this f- this guy introduced his son, and he said his son hadn't lost a chess game in, in two years, and he was so proud. And it's just like, I knew it was a fucking train wreck. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:53 (laughs)

Josh Waitzkin 28:53 I mean, the kid, like, 'cause he, the kid obviously just was only choosing people to play who he could beat.

Joe Rogan 28:58 Right.

Josh Waitzkin 28:58 Wouldn't compete up in tournaments, would only play down, would... And he was just, and he was the only kid who didn't want to play against me in the simul.

Joe Rogan 29:04 Oh, no.

Josh Waitzkin 29:04 And so his life was protecting this perfect, perfect thing, right?

Joe Rogan 29:07 Oh.

Josh Waitzkin 29:07 People who don't lose at... So, in my chess life, I, the, the interesting thing that happened in my psychology is that I, I was the top-rated player for my age in the country from, from a young age. But I always played up. I always played against adults. Except for nationals and worlds, I played up. And so... And all of my, the, my rivals were targeting me 'cause I was the top seed in, in youth events. Uh, but their coaches and their, were, were much stronger players than me. They were adult international masters, grandmasters, and they could see all my weaknesses, psychological, technical, everything. And so if I ever made a mistake, the weakness was exploited until I took it on. And so I developed, from a really young age, this relationship to training which was, if I didn't take on my weakness, I got my ass kicked, and I felt pain. And so not taking on my weakness became outside of my conceptual scheme.

Joe Rogan 29:57 Hmm.

Josh Waitzkin 29:57 So, from age eight, I just, I, it... And it can be a blind spot. Like, today, in life, like, a criticism of me that some loved ones would have is that I, I'm just, I'm always j- I love training. I love pushing my limits as a way of life in whatever I'm doing. If it was chess, if it was fighting. Now, it's, it's foiling. Surfing and then foiling in, in the biggest waves I can find. And, like, just, if I'm playing at my edge, I, I feel... It feels beautiful. It feels like where I want to be.

Joe Rogan 30:23 Hmm.

Josh Waitzkin 30:24 But the comfort zone doesn't feel beautiful. And it, to me, that works really well. But it's a big part of, like, my foundation in that...... was when being eight years old and being targeted, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, 13, my whole life. And I- I- it wasn't until recently that I realized that it was actually outside of my conceptual scheme not to take on the weakness, because it was just connected to pain from such a young age as-

Joe Rogan 30:46 Well-

Josh Waitzkin 30:46 ... a competitor.

Joe Rogan 30:47 ... that is the formula.

Josh Waitzkin 30:47 And there's no luck in chess.

Joe Rogan 30:48 Right.

Josh Waitzkin 30:48 There's no fucking luck in chess.

Joe Rogan 30:50 Right. Right.

Josh Waitzkin 30:50 If you have... Like, if you, if you're playing chess, if you have an opening repertoire that's massive and you go into a game and there's one little place that there's a weakness and you don't want your opponent to go, he always fucking finds it. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:01 (laughs)

Josh Waitzkin 31:01 I don't know why. You can... You never, like-

Joe Rogan 31:03 (laughs)

Josh Waitzkin 31:03 ... make a move and hope he doesn't see it. Or I'll play... I'll set this trap and it's not the best move, but maybe he'll fall into it. No, that never works at a high level. So you just... You, you have to take your shit on.

Joe Rogan 31:14 So you associate not taking it on with pain?

Josh Waitzkin 31:19 Yeah, I don't anymore. I did young. Now, I don't associate it with anything. I just don't do it.

Joe Rogan 31:23 Right. Yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 31:24 Unless I try.

Joe Rogan 31:25 That's a better way to handle it, to recognize there's, there's, there's a real process. There's-

Josh Waitzkin 31:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:30 ... there's the right way to do this. It's the only way to do this, so don't even think about the other way.

Josh Waitzkin 31:35 Right. But if it's, if it's kind of driving you... I, for me, I think it's healthier for me to recognize that pattern in myself and then roll with it, as opposed to just not even see, like, that it's-

Joe Rogan 31:44 That it's there.

Josh Waitzkin 31:45 That it's there.

Joe Rogan 31:45 Right. Yeah. Well, yeah. Acknowledge. Well, you have to have acknowledgement of it because you have memories.

Josh Waitzkin 31:50 Like, if I'm cooking a turkey, I have to cook a world-class turkey. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:54 (laughs)

Josh Waitzkin 31:54 I have a friend, Jim Detmer, who says to me, "Josh, what you have to do is cook a terrible turkey. Just cook a, cook an average turkey, you know. Don't crush it." In other words, like, don't... It's an interesting thing when you become present to the fact that you have this, like, youthful story running through everything you do, and you can choose to live that way. But it's good for it to be a choice as opposed to just driving you.

Joe Rogan 32:16 It's definitely good for it to be a choice. It's always good for it to be a choice because sometimes life will... You know, there's a curve that you have to take and you have to put something aside for a bit, or maybe forever, and you have to be able to transition to something else. And if you can't do that, then you'll be stuck.

Josh Waitzkin 32:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:32 And you see a lot of that with martial arts people. You know, most of us, at a certain point in time, realize that injuries are, uh, not just inevitable, but at a certain point in time, you go, "Maybe I should stop doing this." Because training, no matter what you do, training is all about you using your body as a weapon and someone using their body as a weapon, whether it's martial arts like stand-up fighting or whether it's jujitsu, it's the same thing. You're, you're trying to s- You're trying to isolate joints. You're trying to cut off blood, and you're resisting all these things, and all the weak points get exposed. Shoulders, knees, ankles, back, neck, all those things get exposed. And if you're an, a meathead, like I've been in the past, you train through injuries and they get chronic, and then you get to a certain point where you're like, "What am I doing?" And if you can't transition to something else, if you can't find something else to do with your time, then you're a cripple. Then, you know, then you're getting your 10th surgery on your back and you're still trying to train. And everybody's like, "Look at Bob. He's crazy. He's got all his discs fused, but he's still training." Like, "Maybe Bob shouldn't be training." Like, "Maybe, maybe Bob's gonna break something else now." Like, "Maybe, maybe it's time to move on to something else." And if you don't have this ability to constantly take on new projects and be excited by different things, you're gonna have a shallow life. Like, life has so many challenges and so many fascinating things to dive into. For you now, it's foiling. For a while, jujitsu, chess. Like, anything like that, you'll find something else like that. When it comes to college basketball and March Mania, one thing is for sure, nothing's for sure. Upsets, buzzer beaters, Cinderellas advancing, top seeds going home early. It's all gonna happen. Bet the unexpected, every upset, every day with DraftKings Sportsbook. With live betting, exclusive content, promos, and parlays, DraftKings is the ultimate college basketball destination for March. First time? Here's something special just for you. New DraftKings customers bet five bucks to get $200 in bonus bets instantly. Bet the unexpected with DraftKings Sportsbook. Download the DraftKings Sportsbook app and use the code ROGAN. That's code ROGAN for new customers to get $200 in bonus bets when you bet just five bucks. Only on DraftKings, the crown is yours.

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Josh Waitzkin 35:33 You'll find-

Joe Rogan 35:34 Jujitsu-

Josh Waitzkin 35:34 Jujitsu was the art I had to... That I, I, I had to move on from not on my own terms because I, I, um, I ruptured my L4-L5 disc.

Joe Rogan 35:41 There it is. See?

Josh Waitzkin 35:41 Trained, trained on it like a crazy person for, like-

Joe Rogan 35:44 Yeah. Sure.

Josh Waitzkin 35:45 ... a couple of years. And then the doctors looked at that and they're just like, "If you keep on doing this, you're not gonna be able to walk. You're not gonna be able to play ball with your son."

Joe Rogan 35:52 What's it like now?

Josh Waitzkin 35:52 It's great now.

Joe Rogan 35:52 Yeah?

Josh Waitzkin 35:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:53 That's great.

Josh Waitzkin 35:54 I mean-

Joe Rogan 35:54 Do you think it's a little... Foiling probably makes your core, like, incredibly strong.

Josh Waitzkin 35:58 Yeah. I mean, I, I've just done a lot of stuff. I mean, I spent y- I never had surgery. They all told me to, but I didn't have surgery.

Joe Rogan 36:05 Good for you.

Josh Waitzkin 36:05 And I did tons of... I mean, I've been doing total immersion swimming and foundation training and every- everything I could do, um, for the back. And the foiling feels... I'm, I'm training like I'm all in on this art. And it... I'm doing it in a way that feels healthy on the back.

Joe Rogan 36:20 Mm-hmm.

Josh Waitzkin 36:20 I train jujitsu now, but light. I mean, I can't train all in, all out like I'd love, love to.

Joe Rogan 36:25 No, it's good.

Josh Waitzkin 36:25 It was heart- It was heartbreaking to give it up. I was-

Joe Rogan 36:27 It is hard, yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 36:28 And, and I was so madly in love and all in with Marcelo and having that... Like, I was as... At that part of the learning process, which is where I get good at the learning process, which is, like, toward the...... higher levels of something, that's wh- where I'm best at learning.

Joe Rogan 36:43 Did you have a small injury that got worse over time, or did you have a significant moment where you realized you hurt it?

Josh Waitzkin 36:49 I was so stupid. No, it was a significant moment. I was, I was on position sparring. (laughs) Marcella was in the, we were at our school in New York. Um, it was a week before my s- my eldest son Jack was born. Um, so it was a bit over 13 years ago. I wa- we were... Marcella was, was gone. We... I was at the school. Um, Paul Schrader was running class that day, I think. And, um, there was this 240-pound blue belt visiting. This is, like-

Joe Rogan 37:14 Oi.

Josh Waitzkin 37:14 ... ripped dude. And Paul had everyone doing position sparring, half guard position sparring. And this guy was matched up against one of our guys. I had that hubristic, invincible feeling about me in that moment. I was just... When you're feeling at your very best-

Joe Rogan 37:27 Mm-hmm.

Josh Waitzkin 37:27 ... in martial flow. And I was like... And it ended up where we were doing half guard position sparring, where I was holding half guard and he was doing this pass, twisting the spine. And it was so fucking stupid to do it. I mean, I was just holding half guard in a, in, in, like, in position sparring, and I just felt it go poof. (inhales deeply) And then, like, you know, it was... I couldn't move. It was fucking terrible.

Joe Rogan 37:55 Hmm.

Josh Waitzkin 37:56 Um. And it was-

Joe Rogan 37:57 Did it herniate?

Josh Waitzkin 37:58 Yeah. And all the fluid gone.

Joe Rogan 38:01 Oh.

Josh Waitzkin 38:01 And, um, yeah, it was brutal. You know, it was... And I remember-

Joe Rogan 38:06 So, like, the week-

Josh Waitzkin 38:06 ... like, the week-

Joe Rogan 38:06 How is the disc now?

Josh Waitzkin 38:07 I, I couldn't lis- I couldn't lift up my child for the first three or four months of his life.

Joe Rogan 38:11 Oi.

Josh Waitzkin 38:11 And then I had this strange period where I couldn't... I could... Standing and walking was the toughest. But then I had this period, like if I would go into the corner store to get milk, like three or four months later, I'd have to bike to the corner store and come back. And I don't... I can't explain this, but I, I had a period where I couldn't walk, but I could ski (laughs) because of the angle. So Marcella and I were going to the mountains out around New York, just bombing down. I was just trying to get my, my fix in.

Joe Rogan 38:37 (laughs)

Josh Waitzkin 38:37 Just skiing without turning was my goal. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:40 (laughs)

Josh Waitzkin 38:40 He was snowboarding. I was skiing. Uh...

Joe Rogan 38:42 You couldn't walk, but you could ski.

Josh Waitzkin 38:43 He has a very strange period.

Joe Rogan 38:44 I would have told you, "Dude, don't ski."

Josh Waitzkin 38:45 Don't, don't, don't fucking ski. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:46 I would have told you, "Don't ski."

Josh Waitzkin 38:46 It would have been a smart thing to tell me. Yeah, I was a dumbass for the first two years after the injury. And then I, um... And then I realized I had to... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:54 What does the disc look like now?

Josh Waitzkin 38:55 I haven't looked at it in a long time. Um, it-

Joe Rogan 38:58 It doesn't trouble you anymore?

Josh Waitzkin 38:59 It does trouble me. I take care of it all the time. Um, yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:04 They replace them now. Uh, Eddie Bravo got a fake disc in his lower back, a titanium disc.

Josh Waitzkin 39:11 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 39:11 And, uh, he's able to train again. I know quite a few guys who've got them. Aljamain Sterling got one in his neck and then went on to defend the UFC Bantamweight Championship-

Josh Waitzkin 39:20 Wow.

Joe Rogan 39:21 ... several times. Yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 39:22 They replace them altogether?

Joe Rogan 39:23 Mm-hmm.

Josh Waitzkin 39:24 I didn't know that.

Joe Rogan 39:24 Yeah, they put ar- artificial discs now. Yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 39:28 You know, your point about... I remember I was stu- back in the early 2000s, studying Eddie's game, studying the rubber guard, studying all the twister stuff.

Joe Rogan 39:35 Mm-hmm.

Josh Waitzkin 39:36 Just trying to wrap my head around it.

Joe Rogan 39:37 Yeah, he's got some wild stuff.

Josh Waitzkin 39:39 Wild stuff.

Joe Rogan 39:39 And if you're not used to it, it's, it's really interesting to watch people that just have never encountered it before. When I would go to train in other places, like, I lived in Colorado for a bit, and I trained at Amal Easton's. And, uh, when I'd go up there, there's so many positions that guys just didn't understand. They didn't know what was going on. They figured it out after a while, like, "Oh, if he goes this way, he's going to try to get me in a twister."

Josh Waitzkin 39:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:58 "If he goes this way, he's gonna try to set this up." But there's certain things that people do all the time, like, especially, like, put your hands on the mat. You do... If you put your hands on... Pull up Jeremiah Vance, uh, highlights.

Josh Waitzkin 40:10 Yeah, I haven't missed those.

Joe Rogan 40:11 This is, like, one of Eddie's best, uh, black belts with rubber guard. And the way he does it is phenomenal. He has incredible leg dexterity, and his technique is so sharp. And he catches people and stuff where they're like, "How am I even stuck here?"

Josh Waitzkin 40:28 Do you find that, that flex-

Joe Rogan 40:30 Yeah, here it is.

Josh Waitzkin 40:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:31 So watch, watch how quick he sets things up.

Josh Waitzkin 40:34 Ugh.

Joe Rogan 40:34 It's like right away, you're in, you're fucksville.

Josh Waitzkin 40:38 (laughs) You're fucked. You're fucked.

Joe Rogan 40:39 Like, (laughs) like, who does this? Who sets up a, a gogoplata right off the bat and then triangles it? Look how he sets this up.

Josh Waitzkin 40:46 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:46 I mean, this is insane. And just massive crank on your fucking neck.

Josh Waitzkin 40:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:53 And he switches it to omoplata, re-rolls.

Josh Waitzkin 40:57 Mm-hmm. Yep.

Joe Rogan 41:00 Omaplata crucifix finish.

Josh Waitzkin 41:02 Yep.

Joe Rogan 41:04 And everything he does involves this incredible dexterity and flexibility. There's, like, a whole series of highlights. That's not even some of his best stuff, but he's able to do this to people that just don't know what he's doing. Like, they, they don't understand some of these transitions.

Josh Waitzkin 41:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:23 And this is just, like, one of the best expressions of the techniques that Eddie's developed. So, like, Jeremiah's fantastic at that. Like, this, this particular technique of being able to isolate the omoplata and then secure a choke in the transition. He does this to everybody. Look at how he-

Josh Waitzkin 41:40 Uff.

Joe Rogan 41:40 This transition right here.

Josh Waitzkin 41:41 Brutal.

Joe Rogan 41:41 He's so nasty.

Josh Waitzkin 41:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:43 It's so nasty. And you just... You don't know what the fuck you're doing. "How am I getting out of this?" I mean, he just hits this over and over and over on people. And so many times when people go for an omoplata, people say, "Okay, I... Worst case scenario, I might roll out of this and wind up on my back in side control." But not with him.

Josh Waitzkin 42:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:01 But with him, (laughs) you're like... This is like-

Josh Waitzkin 42:03 Fuck.

Joe Rogan 42:03 ... you're really close to checkmate from the moment the, the omoplata is set up from a position where you're defending. So you're defending correctly from the omoplata, and that winds up setting up this choke.

Josh Waitzkin 42:16 What was your, your... What, what... How do you feel about Ryan Hall's game in, in MMA? Like he... 'cause he also... He's entering the MMA game, right?

Joe Rogan 42:23 Oh, he's been in the MMA game for quite a while.

Josh Waitzkin 42:24 Yeah, I know, but...

Joe Rogan 42:25 Yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 42:25 Yeah, no, but I mean, when he entered the, the game, he came into it with a repertoire that was so unusual for-

Joe Rogan 42:29 Very unusual.

Josh Waitzkin 42:30 Right, yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:30 Well, he's really, really smart, obviously.

Josh Waitzkin 42:33 Brilliant, yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:33 And when you see his style... The problem with his style, in my opinion-

Josh Waitzkin 42:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 42:40 ... is it's so Jujitsu heavy that he's vulnerable when he's fighting world-class strikers. Like, Ilia Topuria smashed him.

Josh Waitzkin 42:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:49 And it was a horrible, horrible knockout. And it's because Ilia is a legit Brazilian Jujitsu black belt, but also, like, way more technical on the feet.

Josh Waitzkin 42:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 42:57 And when you're fighting a guy who's just... Any one mistake you make o-... in striking i- is a concussion. Any one mistake, boom! A big hand's coming, a knee's coming, a kick's coming. It's like something's coming if you make mistakes. It's just like being a blue belt rolling with, uh, a high level black belt.

Josh Waitzkin 43:15 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:15 It's the same thing. It's like you're just t- way too vulnerable. So his jiu-jitsu's off the charts, but his standup is not at the level of his jiu-jitsu, and that's just a real problem today.

Josh Waitzkin 43:26 Yep.

Joe Rogan 43:26 It's very h- You can kind of be a specialist if you're a striker. A striker, like, there's a few guys that can pull it off if they're really strong and they have good take-down defense. Like Pereira's the best example, right? Two-division world champion kickboxer comes over, dominates, becomes a two-division UFC champion as a striker, because every fight starts standing up. But if you don't know how to strike, every fight starts standing up. So the beginning of the fight is always something you're not good at. And if you're getting tagged at the very beginning of the fight, and now you're in desperation mode, and all this person has to do, it's an- an enormous space they're fighting in, the octagon, and the cage of the octagon actually makes it easier to get up if someone takes you down. So there's a lot of elements that wouldn't even exist if you had a flat surface with no walls. So it's easier to defend, it's- it's easier to move around 'cause it's an enormous surface. So you're now chasing this person, and you might've already gotten a concussion. You might've already been rocked. So you're already, like, a little out of it, and now you're, like, desperado mode. It's just a bad place to be. Like, you have to have world-class striking to compete at a world-class level in MMA at this point.

Josh Waitzkin 44:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:34 You have to have s- You have to have something, at the very least, you have to be really good defensively, really good. But then you're just gonna get picked apart on the feet.

Josh Waitzkin 44:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:44 Your legs are gonna get kicked. You're g- you're gonna get brutalized. Yeah, you have to be a really good striker, and Ryan is one of those guys that's a specialist, and, you know, he t- he tapped a lot. I mean, he tapped BJ Penn in, like, 10 seconds.

Josh Waitzkin 44:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:56 He's tapped a lot of guys. He's- I- when he gets ahold of you, you're i- in this complex web of transitions and techniques that if you're just a regular MMA fighter who trains jiu-jitsu three times a week, you're not gonna know what he's doing.

Josh Waitzkin 45:08 Yeah. He's a brilliant guy. He- he trained at our school from, in New York, I think, from 2010, 2012, that range. And it was so interesting watching him and Marcelo. Um, 'cause Ryan had a huge amount of humility relative to Marcelo, um, and he wanted to- to train with him, and Marcelo was so curious about Ryan's game. But Marcelo never studied anyone's game. His a- his, uh, core principle of Marcelo is if you- if you- if you study my game, you enter my game, and no one will be better at my game than me. And so when he, in competition, he would- that guy should be studying tape of everybody. He would never study everyone's tape, never study everyone's fights, but he'd watch them, the fight before they went against him, and he'd pick up on some kind of elemental read. He has this incred- he has what I call, uh, a low-rep learner. His ability to learn from a single repetition is just unbelievable.

Joe Rogan 45:53 Mm.

Josh Waitzkin 45:54 Um, and it was really interesting watching him and Ryan, 'cause Ryan, uh, Ryan just came and visited me, um, in my home, uh, uh, a g- g- month ago. And we were talking about how formative those training experiences with Marcelo were. And, and it was, like, the way, one way that Ryan described it is that he had this, like, layers of traps seven steps in. But Marcelo had this deep understanding upstream of that. And it was like watching Marcelo put himself, like, right next to the fire, like, right next to Ryan's game. He wanted to learn Ryan, the edges of Li- of Ryan's game, but never enter it. And his ability to play right at the threshold of all of Ryan's traps, which he could pull almost everyone else into, and just pure grappling, right?

Joe Rogan 46:34 Mm.

Josh Waitzkin 46:34 And, but not- not just- His ability to learn, it was like, uh, it felt like a cat putting its paw right up against the edge of a fire, and just, like, learning about what heat was, and deconstructing it, but then-

Joe Rogan 46:47 Oh, wow.

Josh Waitzkin 46:47 ... not ever getting into the heat. You know? And I w- And you'd watch Ryan roll, roll with anyone else, he could just pull them into the fire, into the spider web.

Joe Rogan 46:55 That's fascinating.

Josh Waitzkin 46:55 Yeah, M- Marcelo has a, uh, a really incredibly deep, almost simian physical intelligence. And his ability to learn from a single rep is unique in my observation.

Joe Rogan 47:07 That's amazing. Ryan has had a ton of surgeries, hasn't he?

Josh Waitzkin 47:11 Oh, yeah. Man, that dude has had such bad luck. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:13 What is, uh, wrong with him? What's going on?

Josh Waitzkin 47:15 He, it's some shit with, I mean, tons of stuff with his knee, with his hip, with... I think he's, he's starting to come b- And I think his shoulder or something now.

Joe Rogan 47:21 Oh, sure.

Josh Waitzkin 47:21 He-y- he's still, you know, he's-

Joe Rogan 47:22 He's had, like, nine surgeries?

Josh Waitzkin 47:23 I think 23 sur- I think it was 23.

Joe Rogan 47:25 23?

Josh Waitzkin 47:25 I think he's had 23 surgeries. Dude has got... And the, the bad one happened when someone just falling on him in training. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:32 What was that?

Josh Waitzkin 47:32 I don't know. I don't... Oh, it was, that was the hip.

Joe Rogan 47:34 Oh, God.

Josh Waitzkin 47:35 Yeah. I don't know exactly. I haven't seen the video.

Joe Rogan 47:36 What did he get done to his hip?

Josh Waitzkin 47:39 Ask him. I don't... I'm not sure.

Joe Rogan 47:41 Uh.

Josh Waitzkin 47:41 Yeah, he's had a lot of surgeries, a lot of surgeries.

Joe Rogan 47:43 Someone just fell on him. So was he training with someone else and someone else fell on him?

Josh Waitzkin 47:47 No, he was r- He was training with somebody and he was taking it easy on them in a transition, trying to not hurt them, and then they just collapsed on him-

Joe Rogan 47:52 (laughs)

Josh Waitzkin 47:53 ... on his hip in a certain way as he described it.

Joe Rogan 47:55 Oi.

Josh Waitzkin 47:56 Yeah, brutal.

Joe Rogan 47:57 When you were training, did you do any weightlifting just to sort of supplement it, to keep your joints strong and your-

Josh Waitzkin 48:04 Yeah. Yeah. I, I did a lot of... I, I tended to do weightlifting that was consistent with the movement patterns of the arts that I was training in. So then I would, so I, I would do a lot of biking, lower body strength, and then I would do... I wasn't, didn't have... I think if I did it now, I would do much more weightlifting. Um, but when I was rolling usually twice a week, six days a week, and, um, and I was, I would do cardio work in addition, and then some, like, some resistance work. But, uh, I didn't, I wasn't... Like, I, I'm doing a lot of work with the Boston Celtics now, and I'm seeing how their, for the last few years, and I see how they're a brilliant, their sports science team and their physical trainers are. And, like, I don't think that I was, when I was training jiu-jitsu, I was at the, the level of, for example, the Boston Celtics in, in, um, in the resistance training that I was doing, uh, to supplement it.

Joe Rogan 48:56 Mm.

Josh Waitzkin 48:56 Yeah, and Marcelo didn't do weight training, and that was part of it. When I was training with him, we were, like, I was just using-

Joe Rogan 49:00 He didn't weight train at all?

Josh Waitzkin 49:01 No, not at all.

Joe Rogan 49:02 How did he get those legs?

Josh Waitzkin 49:04 ... he just rolls, man. And he was biking. He was into bike, into the, those bikes without, um, without brakes. We were biking all over New York. He- he- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:11 Bikes without brakes?

Josh Waitzkin 49:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:12 What do you mean?

Josh Waitzkin 49:13 What are they called?

Narrator 49:13 Fixies.

Josh Waitzkin 49:14 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:15 What is that?

Narrator 49:15 Fix- fixed wheel.

Josh Waitzkin 49:16 Yeah, fixed wheel. He- he just-

Joe Rogan 49:18 What does that mean?

Narrator 49:19 It's just got no, no brakes. There's no brakes all over the board.

Joe Rogan 49:21 How do you slow down?

Narrator 49:22 You go- you go slow.

Josh Waitzkin 49:23 You go slow. You put your hand-

Narrator 49:24 (laughs)

Josh Waitzkin 49:24 ... your foot on the, on the edge of the b- the wheel.

Joe Rogan 49:26 What?

Josh Waitzkin 49:26 It's like, yeah, fixed wheel biking. I mean, uh, he loved fixed wheel around New York, and I was biking. Then I switched over-

Joe Rogan 49:32 Why would you, why would you ever get on a bike with no brakes?

Josh Waitzkin 49:34 It's a-

Narrator 49:34 You control it. You're- you're- you're braking. Ah, I'll- I'll show you a video.

Joe Rogan 49:38 Show me.

Josh Waitzkin 49:38 Peop- people love it, but man, in New York-

Joe Rogan 49:40 What is this?

Josh Waitzkin 49:40 ... it's- it's quite something. I mean, in New York, when you're going down a hill in New York City in- in traffic, there's- there's some adventure.

Joe Rogan 49:45 You're going down a hill. How are you fucking slowing down?

Narrator 49:48 Don't go fast.

Joe Rogan 49:49 What?

Josh Waitzkin 49:49 Oh, he was going, we were going fast.

Narrator 49:50 No, I mean, that's the, you just got- you're... Nah, you gotta see how high- this isn't gonna be a good video for-

Joe Rogan 49:56 This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of in my life.

Josh Waitzkin 49:58 (laughs)

Narrator 49:58 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:58 This is something only white people would figure out.

Josh Waitzkin 50:00 (laughs)

Narrator 50:00 "Let's have a bike with no brakes."

Josh Waitzkin 50:02 The dumber thing was what I did after this, which is that I, when I fell in love with surfing, I was one-wheeling all over New York.

Joe Rogan 50:07 Oh, five ways to stop on a fixie.

Narrator 50:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:10 How about don't get a fixie? Get brakes, you fucking idiot.

Josh Waitzkin 50:13 (laughs)

Narrator 50:13 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:13 This is the dumbest shit I've ever seen in my life. Why wouldn't you have brakes? Why wouldn't you have an option to control the bike better?

Narrator 50:22 Uh, so I- uh, the people that ride these, I- they'd- they'd argue they control it probably better than with brakes.

Joe Rogan 50:26 Yeah, look at all the white people.

Narrator 50:28 (laughs) Well, I mean, I- I mean-

Joe Rogan 50:29 All white people. Ridiculous white people-

Narrator 50:30 (laughs)

Josh Waitzkin 50:30 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:30 ... that would be doing backflips with skateboards.

Narrator 50:33 This is- this is a big New York thing. Now, I haven't really- yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:34 Of course it is. They don't, they like suffering over there.

Narrator 50:37 (Laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:37 That's why they all live jammed on top of each other.

Narrator 50:39 So, can't find a good video.

Joe Rogan 50:40 (laughs) That's so stupid. There's no good videos on that. That's a stupid thing. Get-

Narrator 50:45 There's a movie I've seen, that's why I know about it.

Joe Rogan 50:46 ... brakes, you fucking freaks.

Josh Waitzkin 50:48 My last two years living in New York, I- I had fallen so in love with surfing. And I was... I knew the ocean arts were my next chapter. And I was so heartbroken not to be able to do it every day, so I got a one-wheel. It was like the first generation. You know the one with electronic skateboards with the little bitty camera?

Joe Rogan 50:59 Yeah. Yeah, we have one of those.

Josh Waitzkin 51:01 It was like the... Just came out, first generation. Old- and I was just like, thousands of miles biking, o- one-wheeling all over New York. And then, um... But it was the early one, if you push past the pushback, it had this pushback thing which would slow you down, but you could push past it and go faster. But if you pushed past the final pushback, it just bottomed out. Wham.

Joe Rogan 51:18 Ooh.

Josh Waitzkin 51:18 And these went like 23, 24 miles an hour, just like whack, right?

Joe Rogan 51:22 Oh.

Josh Waitzkin 51:22 Over taxi cabs, under taxi cabs-

Narrator 51:24 This is, uh, it's like when you're a kid.

Josh Waitzkin 51:24 ... through taxi cabs, everything.

Narrator 51:25 The- the one-wheel's like when you're a kid. Or sorry, the f- the fixie, it's like you just skid, remember?

Joe Rogan 51:29 Oh.

Narrator 51:30 You just skid. You just slam on.

Joe Rogan 51:30 Oh, so there is brakes, like a kid.

Narrator 51:32 Yeah, you slam on. Yeah, I guess that's a better way to describe it.

Joe Rogan 51:34 Oh.

Narrator 51:34 I wasn't thinking of it that way, but-

Joe Rogan 51:35 Okay, so you can brake.

Narrator 51:36 You can also reverse, which you can't do on most bikes. You can ride backwards-

Joe Rogan 51:40 Oh.

Narrator 51:41 ... if you needed to.

Josh Waitzkin 51:42 It's really beautiful.

Narrator 51:43 You can pedal backwards. I mean, I, I, I, this wasn't, this- I never did it, but- Sorry.

Josh Waitzkin 51:46 ... it's really beautiful to watch when it's done well.

Joe Rogan 51:48 Okay, that makes me feel better that you can just skid.

Narrator 51:51 (coughs)

Josh Waitzkin 51:51 Yeah, you can skid.

Narrator 51:52 You fucking retire by... You can stop.

Josh Waitzkin 51:54 There's lots of things that can go wrong.

Joe Rogan 51:56 Yeah, it seems like you-

Josh Waitzkin 51:57 But that's with the most beautiful things, there are lots of things that go wrong. Foiling, there's a lot of fucking things that can go wrong. You're-

Joe Rogan 52:01 Oh, yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 52:01 ... 35, 40 miles an hour on top of a guillotine, big waves, I mean-

Joe Rogan 52:04 Dude, I-

Josh Waitzkin 52:05 ... shit can go wrong fast.

Joe Rogan 52:05 ... learned how to foil two years ago. And it took me like three hours to get on that fucking thing for the first time, because I've never surfed.

Josh Waitzkin 52:12 You were on an eFoil or-

Joe Rogan 52:13 Yeah, eFoils.

Josh Waitzkin 52:14 Oh, an eFoil, yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:14 Yeah. Took me forever.

Josh Waitzkin 52:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:16 Just kept falling down, getting back up, falling down. Meanwhile, my kids, my youngest at the time, she was 12, humiliated me.

Josh Waitzkin 52:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:24 She just hopped on it instantly and was scooting around, and look, she knew how to do it immediately. But she- she, um, wakeboards. She does a lot of that shit. She's really athletic. But she was just humiliating me.

Narrator 52:36 Gets there fast, yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 52:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:36 And I was just like, "I'm gonna figure this out."

Josh Waitzkin 52:38 Beat her up bad.

Joe Rogan 52:39 So for hours, I kept falling down and getting back up, falling down, and eventually I got it. And then once I got it, it was like easy.

Josh Waitzkin 52:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:46 Once I got it, I was like, "Oh, I see."

Josh Waitzkin 52:48 EFoiling is the best, it's like, it's the best way to learn how to foil because you're- it- they weigh 90 pounds, the eFoils do. Uh, like a high-performance big wave, fo- uh, high-performance foil will, the whole setup will weigh four or five pounds.

Joe Rogan 52:59 Really?

Josh Waitzkin 52:59 Yeah, I mean, a, eFoil, you have a battery, it's, uh, he- heavy and you've got electricity to learn how to for- so you learn foil dynamics. Foiling, when you're high-performance foiling in- in big surf, you're- you're just on a, like a... If you're towing in, you're on a three and a half foot board. Um, no, no battery. It's, uh, uh, it's not powered, it's just-

Joe Rogan 53:16 Okay.

Josh Waitzkin 53:16 ... you're- you're just riding hydrodynamics.

Joe Rogan 53:18 So you're... Are you getting towed in to these waves? Like, you're getting in?

Josh Waitzkin 53:20 You get- you get- you can tow- you can paddle in or, um, but if you're towing in to bigger waves, you're on a small board. Um, you're getting towed in behind a jet ski, whipped in, and then you're just riding. It's epic, it's frictionless, so beautiful.

Joe Rogan 53:33 Wow. And what's the benefit of that above surfing? Is that you're above the water?

Josh Waitzkin 53:36 You're- you're above the water. You're not feel... Like, the ultimate... If you think about the- the- the glassiest surf day possible, um, the frictionless feeling, it's- it's more frictionless than that, 'cause you're above the water. You're-

Joe Rogan 53:46 Yeah, I get that on the eFoil. When you get cooking on the eFoil, you're above the water and it's wild.

Josh Waitzkin 53:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:51 It just- I've always feel like, "I'm gonna fall. I'm gonna fall. I'm gonna fall." (laughs)

Josh Waitzkin 53:54 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:55 As soon as I get above the water, I'm like, "Okay, we're going too fast, we're gonna wipe out." And it's gonna be spectacular.

Josh Waitzkin 54:00 Foiling is interesting because it, it's- it's like the ultimate receptivity. Because the foil picks up on underwater wave circulation, uh, so it's picking up on lift when you're going very fast. And also when you're in a wave, the waves have- have upward circulation at the- at the face of the wave, and then you get to the top of the wave, it- it accelerates. And so your- your foil is riding the underwater currents, and you're receiving, and it's so amplified. So like, tiny little movements have big effects on things. So like, the surf movement would be very big, and the f- the foil movement is very subtle, uh, the body mechanic.

Joe Rogan 54:30 Hmm.

Josh Waitzkin 54:30 And then you learn to really crank into it, um, and it's limitless. You can do open water foiling, crossing oceans on long high-aspect wings, riding open ocean swells, and you can-

Joe Rogan 54:40 Wow.

Josh Waitzkin 54:40 ... you can push... Like, high-performance foiling is just like high-performance surfing, the- the lines you can draw. The turns are epic, the Gs are crazy, and i-

Joe Rogan 54:48 So you're just all in on this, huh?

Josh Waitzkin 54:50 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm all in on this. It's- it's too far.

Joe Rogan 54:51 This is an everyday thing for you?

Josh Waitzkin 54:52 Yes.

Joe Rogan 54:53 (laughs)

Josh Waitzkin 54:53 Every day. S- same as jujitsu, six days a week, twice a day if possible.

Joe Rogan 54:57 (laughs) Really?

Josh Waitzkin 54:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:58 Wow.

Josh Waitzkin 54:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:00 Wow. Do you have goals?

Josh Waitzkin 55:03 Virtuosity.

Joe Rogan 55:04 Mm.

Josh Waitzkin 55:04 Yeah, I, I competed my whole life and, and so now I live ... Like, I train the way I would if I was in a world championship training camp. Um-

Joe Rogan 55:14 That's hilarious.

Josh Waitzkin 55:15 ... 'cause I love life and I'm foiling crazy. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:16 Who else is doing that? (laughs)

Josh Waitzkin 55:18 Just a couple lunatics.

Joe Rogan 55:19 How many other people are foiling like they're training for a world championship activity?

Josh Waitzkin 55:23 Yeah. It's a, it's a ... But the interesting thing is, like, I ... Yeah, I love it. It, it's, um ... But all these arts, to me, are connected. That's the strange thing about my art. Like chess, Chinese martial arts, jiu-jitsu, o- surfing, foiling, to me, the fascinating thing when you get toward the pinnacle of an art is that you start to experience, uh, at least in my, from my perspective, that the apexes of these arts are much closer to one another than lower down in the mountain of the same art.

Joe Rogan 55:53 Mm-hmm.

Josh Waitzkin 55:54 So people who are virtuosos in various fields are often speaking a much more similar language than people who are at lower levels of the same art in their training.

Joe Rogan 56:01 Yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 56:02 And like, when I think about, about chess, I related to chess through s- through core principles, and those principles manifest in the martial arts. I remember that I had this, this, um ... When I wrote my first book, The Art Of, or my, my second book, The Art Of Learning, it was about my experience of crossing over my level from chess into the, into the Chinese martial arts. Um, and I had this really interesting experience where I was giving a simultaneous chess exhibition, playing 40 games at once in a charity for Duchenne muscular dystrophy. But I was at the point, that point I'd been training martial arts for two years and I had not been ... I, I'd kinda moved to a, I was mo- in a transition away from chess during that period. And I had this realization that I was winning these chess games, playing 40 games at once, but I was not playing chess. I was feeling flow, riding space left behind. I was riding the energetic wave of the game like I would if we were flowing on the mats. But I was making chess moves.

Joe Rogan 56:57 Wow.

Josh Waitzkin 56:57 And I realized that these arts had become fundamentally connected. And then that became, like, an ar- area of interest and of exploration, and I started making what I was doing unconsciously more and more conscious. And now when I relate to, to, like, chess, I don't move chess pieces anymore, but chess is manifest in everything that I do, as is jiu-jitsu. Um, and as is, like the, and the ocean arts, I'm manifesting these other arts, the core principles I've experienced through them-

Joe Rogan 57:25 Yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 57:25 ... all the time. And, and that's, uh, one of the things that I've, um, I've been puzzled by for many years is why ... Chess is so fucking hard. Like, chess has no luck. The best chess players in the world are so brilliant at what they do. I listened to your episode with, um, Magnus Carlsen. Enjoyed that.

Joe Rogan 57:42 He was great.

Josh Waitzkin 57:42 Yeah, that was cool. Like, like someone like Magnus, he's so fucking good at what he does, such a virtuoso. Um, but if you look at, like, the top 100 or top 1,000 chess players, they're, they're tremendously strong. But when they try to translate their ability to other fields, they often can't, and it's surprising.

Joe Rogan 58:00 Hmm.

Josh Waitzkin 58:01 And I've tried to figure out why for a lot of years, because you'd think, like, if you're able to just be so excellent at something that's super hard, you could take on something that's relatively easier and become very good at it. And I think that the reason that people often can't cross-level over from one thing to the other is that they learn it in a localized language. So you can learn chess in a way which is very specific to chess, like principles that are just chess principles, or you can learn chess in a language which connects to all of life. And that won't slow down. It might accelerate your chess learning.

Joe Rogan 58:32 Hmm.

Josh Waitzkin 58:33 But you can, but it c- but, like, and if children are taught games like chess, or gymnastics, or music, or whatever else, wh- so they're learning about that art very deeply. They're touching quality, they're pushing their limits, they're living a life of training, as I know you value very much, but they're doing so in a language which connects to the rest of life. Then they're, they're studying thematic connect- interconnectedness while they're studying chess, or jiu-jitsu-

Joe Rogan 58:57 Hm.

Josh Waitzkin 58:57 ... or anything else. And then they're just learning the language of excellence.

Joe Rogan 59:02 Yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 59:02 And, and I, I, it's interesting 'cause if you watch chess player, chess teachers teaching students, many of them don't do this. They teach it within, like, the confines of the chess board, like a prison. And if you learn chess that way, then it's like you're living on an island and the ocean around you is like prison walls, right? But if you study chess in a way that you're, you're, you're learning how each chess principle connects to every other art you could ever study, then there's th- this web of interconnectedness is forming in your mind, and then when you take on something else, you're able to cross the level over really, really naturally. And that, in many ways, that's my, that's a, a big part of my life's work is the study of that interconnectedness.

Joe Rogan 59:41 (smacks lips) Do you think that a hu- Well, it had to be a huge factor for you that you were sort of forced to reevaluate the way you interface with life when you became famous because of the film at 15. So, childhood chess player become very well-recognized, then all of a sudden this movie, and now you have to kind of, like, grapple with things. And as you said, these challenges make you a more complex person, and then your ability to sort of push chess aside and try other things, do you think that's because of the, uh, it has to be a factor in your, this desire to explore other things, because you're kind of thrust into this thing where your, your thing is now changed. Your thing is now not just flowing, and learning, and getting better, and, and, and doing battle with chess. Now it's image, and groupies, and this bizarre thing that you're living up to, and you don't like it, and you wanna escape it, and so you have to reevaluate. And so this forced reevaluation from a young age, at 15 years old, th- this key developmental period as a young man, it sort of opens you up to the possibilities of all sorts of different ways of living life, and all sorts of different things to do with life.

Josh Waitzkin 1:00:59 Yeah, a language that I use for this is the, the passage from the pre-conscious to the post-conscious competitor-

Joe Rogan 1:01:04 Mm.

Josh Waitzkin 1:01:04 ... or artist. And, like, when I ... Up until 15, I, I would relate to myself as the pre-conscious competitor. I loved chess. It was free-flowing. I loved the battle. I loved the competition. I loved the ass-kicking and the kicking ass. I, I just loved the fucking battle of the thing.

Joe Rogan 1:01:17 Mm-hmm.

Josh Waitzkin 1:01:18 And then-... and then ar- then I had m- I, I fell in love for the first time when I was 15. The movie came out, um, after that, and, um, I started studying existentialist literature. I started reflecting on the absurdity of it all. I started to become present to the fact that these were just 64 squares and 32 pieces. Like, I was spending my life studying this fucking box, wood- wooden box, like the construct, the absurdity of being stuck in that construct became clear to me. And then I was becoming more and more self-conscious about how what I was doing was perceived by others, and I got lost in all of that. Um, and in many ways, like, the journey, like most pe- most pe- like some people don't run into that for a long time. Like, there are some chess players that just become insanely strong without ever reflecting on the absurdity of the fact that they're just playing chess.

Narrator 1:02:04 (sighs)

Josh Waitzkin 1:02:05 And that's a great liberation, like that-

Narrator 1:02:06 Right.

Josh Waitzkin 1:02:06 ... the moment you become aware of the fact that you're mortal, that you can get your ass kicked, that your arm can break, that you can die, that what you're doing is absurd, like you get locked up by that knowledge.

Narrator 1:02:14 Right.

Josh Waitzkin 1:02:15 Like, and there's so many different forms that can take.

Narrator 1:02:16 Yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 1:02:16 Or the moment you... Like, for example, Boston Celtics, like they, like you're hungering to win a world championship and then you win the NBA Finals. Suddenly everything changes, your relationship, your motivation changes. All the reasons you're doing it are no longer valid in some ways because now you've accomplished the thing you always dreamed of and you have to discover. It's true in any form of competition or art, in my experience, is that there comes a moment where someone's consciousness becomes more complicated and they can't just return to the innocence they had before, 'cause now, uh, you can't do that. You can't put it back in the box.

Narrator 1:02:45 Right.

Josh Waitzkin 1:02:45 It's out. So then you have to work through that journey, which is a lot of what I did from like my late teenage years, leaving and studying philosophy and then moving into other fields and started r- relating to art in a way that was integrating that self-awareness, integrating that sense of mortality. Um, it's like when I, I, I, uh, a very powerful example of this was I, I, I di- I drowned in a pool, um, I guess like nine, 10 years ago. I was, um, doing hypoxic breath work, Wim Hof training (laughs) in a pool.

Narrator 1:03:20 Jesus Christ.

Josh Waitzkin 1:03:21 And, uh, never do Wim Hof training, everybody please, in a pool, um, because you're, you're flushing the CO2 from your body but CO2 is what gives you the urge to breathe. And so without carbon dioxide in your being, in your- you don't feel the urge to breathe. And so I- and I'd been a lifetime free diver, spearfishing f- f- from when I was five, six years old, but I was never doing hypoxic breath work before free diving. So if you're diving 80, 90, 100 feet, you're, you're not flushing the CO2 from your body before you do so, so you have, you still have that, that sense for when you need to breathe. But I was in a NYU pool, I was at just swimming 50 meters, 50 meters back and forth underwater and then doing this, this hypoxic wor- breath work in between. And then I- my last recollection is being stretched out in bliss that those tingles through your body you get from... Have you done Wim Hof training?

Narrator 1:04:06 Mm-hmm.

Josh Waitzkin 1:04:07 Yeah, those, you know those tingles?

Narrator 1:04:08 Mm-hmm.

Josh Waitzkin 1:04:08 Had those fucking tingles and then I woke up 30 minutes later. What happened was that I blacked out. I was in the bottom of the pool for over four minutes after blacking out from shallow water blackout.

Narrator 1:04:18 Oh my God.

Josh Waitzkin 1:04:19 Which should, it should be 45 seconds to a minute and you should be brain dead or dead 'cause you're post-shallow water blackout. I know what time it was because there was an old man at the pool who saw me in the bottom of the pool and swam one lap and his mi- his laps were a little bit over a minute, swam a second lap. After his third lap he said, "Let me, I'll check on him if he's still down." He thought I was holding my breath, but I was only holding my breath while swimming. So if I was still, I was fucking out. His fourth lap, after his fourth lap, he ta- pulled me up. I was blue.

Narrator 1:04:45 Oh my God.

Josh Waitzkin 1:04:46 My whole body was blue. Um, my head was red. My body saved me. My training saved me and almost, and killed me. Sent all the blood to my brain. My eyes were blown out, red, like bloodshot for three weeks that followed. And I, um, I remember waking up and having this, everyone, looking at everyone around me and like, "What the fuck is everyone... What's going on guys? Like what's the drama?" (laughs) And I realized that I was the fucking drama.

Narrator 1:05:08 Whoa.

Josh Waitzkin 1:05:09 Um, and I spent that night in the hospital going through old chess variations trying to, like, s- test my brain. Is my bain- brain ruined? Like, do I remember things? Somehow my brain, maybe it's fucked up, but it's, seems to be working pretty well. (laughs)

Narrator 1:05:22 (laughs)

Josh Waitzkin 1:05:22 And, um...

Narrator 1:05:24 Wow.

Josh Waitzkin 1:05:24 But like I can't... And, and, and that was also a big part of me realizing I had to spend my life in the, in the ocean 'cause I could feel the potential for some PTSD response. Like I could f- I could actually feel the potential trauma response like a cloud that was washing over me.

Narrator 1:05:39 Mm.

Josh Waitzkin 1:05:39 Like I could see the cloud coming and I just fucking decided not to let it in, and I got back in the water the next day. Um, and I, I just fucking... And I think that's a big part of my relationship with the ocean is having died in water. Um, I need to spend my life in the water obviously.

Narrator 1:05:55 Did you have any sort of out-of-body experience or anything while you were gone?

Josh Waitzkin 1:05:59 What's really fucked up about it is no.

Narrator 1:06:01 (laughs)

Josh Waitzkin 1:06:01 That's what's really wild. (laughs) It went just black. That's what's crazy is that I, I went... My last memory is of just tingles and bliss and then waking up. And so if I hadn't been pulled out, there would've been no flash, no th- no seeing my life pass before my eyes, no tunnel on the other side, nothing. You know what's really fucking wild though is that many years later I was doing this, um... This guy Brandon Powell is a brilliant guy who's, um, a train- Wim, uh, top Wim Hof trainer and a trainer of trainers of his guys. And I was doing some retreats with teams of mine and we were doing some Wim Hof work and he had this methodology of kind of accelerated hypoxic work where that he said, I'm not sure if it's true, but he said released DMT in your body, inhibited the DMT inhibitors in your body. And I did these journeys with him twice through pure breath work, no psychedelics. And I experienced these two times, months apart, I experienced one time I experienced the center of my consciousness as where I, as, as my busted disc, and I experienced the world through like the electrical connections emerging from my, from my L4, L5. It's very strange. And the other one was the only memory I have of that...... and I'm not sure if this is accurate or some kind of illusion. But, um, I saw the drowning experience from above, the whole thing. I watched the 20 minutes that I was on the, that I was on the bottom of the pool and then up in 25 minutes, and then on the, on the pool deck, and I saw the whole thing from above. But that was like years after it happened that-

Joe Rogan 1:07:43 Hmm.

Josh Waitzkin 1:07:44 ... so I can't explain that.

Joe Rogan 1:07:45 Were, were all the people there, the same people?

Josh Waitzkin 1:07:48 I don't know. I, I, my memory of it consciously from what actually happened is so fuzzy, right?

Joe Rogan 1:07:54 Mm-hmm.

Josh Waitzkin 1:07:54 Because I just died and came back. But, but, and then I saw, I saw it from above. I think I was mostly focused on the memory of, of myself.

Joe Rogan 1:08:03 Mm-hmm.

Josh Waitzkin 1:08:03 Yeah. So I, I, I relate to myself now like I've, I've died, and I'm living and I ha- I, I live with a sense of, um, gratitude and, uh, commitment. That's a big part of why we moved to the jungle with my family is like, I emerged from that with a commitment to living life as beautifully and deeply and truly as I, as I possibly could and to, and to, um, not let anything slip. Just all in.

Joe Rogan 1:08:27 Isn't it fascinating that sometimes it take... Again, it's the same thing is like loss propels you to a next level. Even the moment in life where you realize it all could just go away like that. (snaps fingers)

Josh Waitzkin 1:08:40 So fucking fast. Instantly.

Joe Rogan 1:08:41 So fast.

Josh Waitzkin 1:08:41 No warning.

Joe Rogan 1:08:42 Yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 1:08:42 Just gone.

Joe Rogan 1:08:43 No, no warning.

Josh Waitzkin 1:08:45 I've done so many stupid fucking things like in these extreme sports I've done, you know, for like... So many times I almost died free diving or-

Joe Rogan 1:08:51 Oh, yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 1:08:52 Um, but that one was different, man.

Joe Rogan 1:08:54 Yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 1:08:54 Because there was... Like I didn't... It was just a... And the crazy thing is it was a technical blind spot. I just didn't know this thing about carbon dioxide. I didn't know I was taking a risk in that moment. I thought I was just taking a swim.

Joe Rogan 1:09:05 Has... Did you learn from other people who do Wim Hof breathing when they swim?

Josh Waitzkin 1:09:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:09:11 After or before?

Josh Waitzkin 1:09:11 Or did you do... No, before. Oh, yeah. No.

Joe Rogan 1:09:13 It's like, who taught you to do this?

Josh Waitzkin 1:09:15 Nobody. I did one Wim Hof breathing on land and I was like, "You know, I'll fucking do it."

Joe Rogan 1:09:18 Oh, boy.

Josh Waitzkin 1:09:18 "I'll just do it, fucking, on the swim right now."

Joe Rogan 1:09:21 (laughs)

Josh Waitzkin 1:09:21 Sounds like a great idea.

Joe Rogan 1:09:22 I think other people have done that and died.

Josh Waitzkin 1:09:24 Yeah, they have. The Navy...

Joe Rogan 1:09:25 Yeah.

Josh Waitzkin 1:09:25 And most people who die from shallow water blackout are highly trained, um, Navy SEALs-

Joe Rogan 1:09:30 Goddam.

Josh Waitzkin 1:09:31 ...