EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,038 words- 0:00 – 2:14
Why jiu-jitsu feels “beautiful”: Marcelo Garcia and the scramble aesthetic
- NANarrator
(drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.
The Joe Rogan Experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) Whenever someone is a, like, an interesting person, and then I find out they do jujitsu too, "Oh, I could talk to that guy, for sure."
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know? (laughs)
- JWJosh Waitzkin
(laughs) Jiu-jitsu-
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, like, I get excited when interesting people do jujitsu, because I think, uh, for the outsider, to a lot of people that are, you know, they, they haven't been exposed to what it's like to train and what it's like to be around high level jujitsu people, they don't, uh, they don't know that vibe. They don't know what it's like. Like, they don't know the, um, the beauty of jujitsu. I feel like b- bea- jujitsu is beautiful for people who practice it, you know? Like, you see, like, Marcelo's a great example, your, your coach. You know, Marcelo is probably one of the most beautiful guys to watch, because he just takes advantage of these scrambles in this, like, really beautiful way, like fast and, and slippery. And when the opponents react, he reacts in the other way. It's all just technique and flow. It's like, "Ah!" Like, the first time I ever saw him, I saw him live in 2003 in Abu Dhabi, and, uh, it was when he fought Shaolin. That was the first time I'd ever seen him, uh, in the flesh. I didn't even-
- JWJosh Waitzkin
And then choked him out in, like, eight seconds, 10 seconds.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, my God.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It was the most crazy scramble.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Incredible.
- JRJoe Rogan
But no one even knew him. No one knew of him, other than... You know, he was o- obviously a r- I think he was a brown belt at the time. I don't even think he was a black belt. I think Marcelo might've been a brown belt.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
I- i- it's interesting. I didn't... In 2003. Maybe.
- JRJoe Rogan
So find that out. Was Marcelo a brown belt when he won Abu Dhabi in 2003? He may have... Eddie Bravo was a brown belt when he tapped out Royler.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
He told me recently that right before that fight, his, um, like, his grips had locked up. So he ca- Went into that fight... It looks incredible, just that arm drag, take the back, choked him out in seconds.
- JRJoe Rogan
His, like, hands?
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah, his, like, grips from the fight before were like...
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, wow.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah. W- wh- When, when Eddie beat Royler, he was a brown belt?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yep.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Wow.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, m- uh, Jean Jacques took his black belt-
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... off of his own waist-
- JWJosh Waitzkin
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... and put it on Eddie.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Amazing, amazing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Dude.
- 2:14 – 4:28
Waitzkin’s grappling lineage: Machado, Marco Santos, and bringing Marcelo back to NYC
- JWJosh Waitzkin
That's epic. So yeah, it's funny. Uh, my background... Uh, we have a lot of overlap in our early jujitsu education, 'cause my first teacher was John Machado.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, okay.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Jean Jacques' brother.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
And I spent years training with John in LA, um, long before I... and then I... Yeah. It wa-
- JRJoe Rogan
And then when did... When, when did you move to New York?
- JWJosh Waitzkin
So I moved to New York. Um, I sta- I think I started training with John... So I was doing s- um, Chinese martial arts for a bunch of years before that, competing everywhere.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
And then I started training, cross-training with John in, I think, 2001, 2002. And then early 2005, moved back to New York, started training with Marco Santos, um, in his school in New York. And I, I was training with (Chinese name) and (Chinese name) . (Chinese name) is an amazing old school (Portuguese) .
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Um, like, you know, amazing fighter. And, um, and I was also cross-training with Lucas Lepri at the time. And I was... I needed... I, I was just ready to... And then I met Marcelo, and I was... And he m- he had moved from New York to Florida, and I was traveling to Florida to train with Marcelo a bunch, and I, I wanted to be pushed all in. And, um, Marcelo and I had gotten really close, and then I, I just said to him, "Hey man, you, you know, you wanna... You wanna come back to New York and open a school together?" And he really loved New York, and, um, we'd gotten very close at this point.
- JRJoe Rogan
Where was he at the time?
- JWJosh Waitzkin
He was in Florida. He was in New York before. He'd, he loved New York, but then he had to move to Florida. Um, he'd been... There was just a lot of jujitsu politics flowing everywhere, as, as it does.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, jujitsu politics.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
The worst. And, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah, anyway, long story short, we opened a school together in, uh, after that, and, um, and it was amazing. And then I spent so many years all in, um, training with him. Most... Such, such a beautiful, beautiful martial artist.
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, so in 2002, he was promoted to black belt. So he was already a black belt.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Because this is 2003.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah. That sounds right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay. So he had only been a black belt for a year and won Abu Dhabi, which is pretty crazy. Pretty crazy. Just that. I mean, didn't just beat Shaolin, won the entire division, and just looked like no one, anybody had ever seen. Just the scrambles, and his ability to arm drag and take the back, and then once he gets to your side, the ability to transition to the back is just phenomenal.
- 4:28 – 5:52
Training for the “in-between”: Marcelo’s philosophy of transitions over control
- JWJosh Waitzkin
And he spends his, his, like, his, his whole jujitsu life, he spent in the scramble, in transition.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
And that was really a, a philosophy of his. Y- you, have you seen that old, um, old school Arte Suave clip? Remember the old documentaries, Arte Suave?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
From back, back in the day, around him at, as a young teenager, training at Faber Grizels school in, in Sao Paolo.
- JRJoe Rogan
Ah.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
And it was so interesting, 'cause even then, you could see him. He never held position. He always let opponents move. It'd be fun to pull that up maybe and at one point show-
- JRJoe Rogan
Interesting.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Like, he, he, he never... His... A core f- principle of his was to allow the opponent to move and spend as much training time as possible in transition. And, uh, while most jujitsu guys, as you know, as they're coming up-
- JRJoe Rogan
Control.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
... with their own egos, they're controlling, they're holding guys.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
And, um-
- NANarrator
Man: Is this him? I don't...
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
In the... This, is this him?
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah, Arte Suave.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, he's already a black belt year.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah, this is after he moved to, um, start training with Fabio in, in Sao Paolo. And this is... It's just a beautiful thing, 'cause if you watch his, his style, he's... Not in this moment, actually. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Now he's fully controlling.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Now, now he's fully controlling.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) But most of the time, he's scrambling.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah, he's scrambling. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Did he explain why?
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Well, you're maximizing time spent in the in-between. I mean, I, I, I think in the martial arts, people are so focused on position when they're learning, position, position, position. But the in-between is where the real virtuosity happens, don't you-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm. Interesting.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
And so he spent... He maximized his time in the in-between.
- 5:52 – 10:06
Footwork as transition mastery: Lomachenko and the dance-to-fighting pipeline
- JRJoe Rogan
So in standup fighting, that would be, like, footwork and angles. It'd be similar to that, 'cause the most important thing about-... any kind of combat sport, in terms of, uh, striking sports, is to be in a better position to land a shot and be in a better position to defend. So if you're fighting southpaw to orthodox, you always want to make sure that if you're southpaw, your foot is on the outside of your opponent's leg. That way, your opponent has to kind of cross over try to hit you, but you're in a position to hit them on the blind side. And the best ever at that is, uh, Vasily Lomachenko. Because Lomachenko, when he was young, his father made him stop boxing for two years and just study Ukrainian dance.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Really?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm. So for two years, he just did Ukrainian dance. And his foot ... Have you ever seen him box?
- JWJosh Waitzkin
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, my God. Pull up, uh, Lomachenko highlight.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's all about m- movement and position with this guy. It's all about when you punch, he's going to make you react this way, and then he's going to go that way, and then he's going to spin sideways, and he'll be behind you. Th- so this is Lomachenko. Like, the way he moves is so different. It's almost like, it's almost like his ... He's got just a, a, a dr- a radar for, like, where their, where their punches are coming from and knows exactly where to put his feet at all times. No matter what they do, he knows what they're gonna do. But when you watch his, like, footwork, it's the most extraordinary thing. Because his ability to give you all sorts of different reads, like, incredible.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, he won a world title, I think, in his fourth pro fight. Unbelievable amateur record. But it's th- it's just the movement. Like, he's never right in front of you. He's always off to the side, he's always moving around, he jumps in and out, and it's, it's with perfect precision. Like, a lot of times when guys do a lot of footwork and movement, there's points in that transition where they're off balance, where they can't really throw a punch, or their footwork is out of position, or they're leaning too far over on this side. He's never off balance.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
He's never out of position. He's always slide a side, pop up, slide a side, pop up. And h- you never know where the fuck he is. He's a magician. It's fascinating to watch him fight, and very few people have tried to incorporate that. Like, you see some of his movement. (laughs)
- JWJosh Waitzkin
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
It's just the way he's able to fool the best fighters in the world and just have a level of, of movement that they just don't really understand what to do with. They just ... They get baffled by it, 'cause everything is coming from different angles. It's never, "I'm charging straight forward at you trying to destroy you." Everything is angles and movement.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Virtuosity is so beautiful to watch.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, it's incredible.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
In anything.
- JRJoe Rogan
In anything.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Anything, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
In anything. When you watch someone who's just unbelievably extraordinary and unique in their ... whatever their discipline is, it's always fascinating to watch. This episode is brought to you by Intuit TurboTax. We're all just trying to level up, right? I'm always trying to push myself, whether it's training, learning something new, or just trying to be a better human. You put in work physically, mentally. And over time, you evolve. It's 2025. Doing your taxes has evolved, too. Just like we put in the work to level up, TurboTax has put in the work to make taxes effortless. Because now, taxes is getting matched up with a TurboTax live expert who has the latest tech. With that, they can cross-check millions of data points to make sure that your return is 100% accurate. That means you get the best possible outcome this tax season for your unique tax situation, all while you go about your day. It's 2025. It's time to file like it. Now, this is taxes Intuit TurboTax. Get an expert now at turbotax.com.
- 10:06 – 11:16
Frames, illusion, and “mystical” skill: why mastery looks like magic
- JWJosh Waitzkin
One way I relate to the transitional training is through frames. It's like a, it's like a process of building more frames. We position, reposition, and for some people, there'll be n- no space in between. But if you spend your time playing in the transitional space between, you build up frames, like an illusionist. I, I know you ... Like, when you-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Remember you spoke to Derren Brown back in the day?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Like, i- you know, great illusionists, magicians, mind control guys, they have the ability to see in frames that we don't have the ability to see in. So it seems like magic. It seems like illusion.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
When martial artists are called mystical, right? It's 'cause people don't understand what they're doing, for the most part, technically, and they have frames where others don't have frames.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm. So they have more options, more po- It's like having a language and you have an access to a larger vocabulary.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah. Yeah, I think-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
I think that that's right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
I think that's right. And peop- Well, it's like, if you think about it, you're engaging with an illusionist who has done something, has spent hundreds of hours in a certain specific routine, and you're seeing it for the first time.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
They just have immense knowledge where you have none. They have more frames, and they can play in frames that you don't have. And it seems like something's coming from, from the, from the sky.
- 11:16 – 13:59
Creativity in jiu-jitsu: Eddie Bravo innovations, guard traps, and MMA examples
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that's where Eddie Bravo had a pretty significant contribution to jujitsu, because he was so creative in some of his attacks and some of the things that he developed, particularly off his back. Like, the rubber guard variations, they were so systematic and so, like ... If you got good at it, it was surprising to anybody who didn't understand what you were doing, because they didn't know these positions well.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So if you got ... Like, there's this kid named Jeremiah Vance who's one of Eddie's best guard players, and there's a highlight reel of his, uh, submissions off of his back, his rubber guard submissions.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And if you don't have a person that you train with ... If you trained at a traditional school and you don't understand these positions, you don't know how good someone can be at it, there's times where you don't think you're vulnerable where you're incredibly vulnerable. Like ...... the difference between a really good guard player in MMA, and a b- ... Like, Paul Craig for example, he submitted some of the best two, two world champions off of his back in the light heavyweight division. Jamahal Hill and the current champion, Ankalaev. Ankalaev's only defeat is to Paul Craig, 'cause he's just wicked off of his back, so everybody feels comfortable. In MMA, there's only a couple guys, like Oliveira, you gotta really watch your Ps and Qs. There's a few guys that are just wicked off of their back, but no one's like Paul Craig. And so, if you're just used to fighting regular guys off of their back, and you get in guard, and you start ... You get a little cocky, you extend an arm to try to land a punch, and then all of a sudden, his legs are wrapped around your fucking neck. And you're like, "Oh, Jesus. How did this happen so quick?" 'Cause he's just got that technique, it's just so tightened up, just tap, it just locks it up so fast, and it's fascinating to watch the difference between like a really good guard player and someone that's just a regular MMA fighter who knows how to do a triangle but really doesn't have, like, the elaborate setups.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Many ways, that's, on a large scale, what, what Royce was doing back in the day, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Sure.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
That's what I mean, but no one had-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
... any idea what he was going on.
- JRJoe Rogan
No one had any idea what was going on.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
They were grabbing his gi thing, they had a huge advantage. They-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
But he ... They were entering his, his terrain. And then when, when, when we were training in the early days, there was so much close-mindedness about leg locks.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
So, the leg lock game was outside of the conceptual scheme to so many Jujitsu guys.
- JRJoe Rogan
It was forbidden.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
It was forbidden, so they'd get caught.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
It's like that dogma, like, you're, like ... It, it's so interesting competitively finding where someone's dogma is-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
... where their constructs or their, their false constructs.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, there's a good argument for it with the gi, with, uh, young guys.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Oh, for sure.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Because-
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Not just shredding each other's ankles all the time, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
You're not gonna be able to train.
- JRJoe Rogan
Ripping knees apart-
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah.
- 13:59 – 15:31
Heel hooks, injuries, and the moment jiu-jitsu became unavoidable for Josh
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Heel hook is why I started training Jujitsu.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah. Because I was doing standup stuff and I was competing everywhere, and my ... I, I was doing Chinese martial arts, and my teacher's son, Max Chen, who was a ... He was a Sanshou fighter, and, um, on the Olympic t- ... On the U.S. National Team, really good standup fighter, and he was studying UFC before I had even looked at it. And then he was studying, I think it was Frank Sharmarock's double heel hook shit-
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
... from way early days. And he was just like, "Let's, let's just continue to the ground." And I had never ground fought before, and I ended up on the ground and he just put me into heel hooks, and double heel hooks, and my knees were exploding. He had no idea what the fuck he was doing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, no.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Terrible idea.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, no.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
My knees were just screaming, and, and I would throw him on the floor, and then I'd be tap ... I didn't even know what tapping out was. I, I had never grappled before.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, no.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
It-
- JRJoe Rogan
You didn't even know how to grapplers-
- JWJosh Waitzkin
I didn't know anything.
- JRJoe Rogan
... put you in a heel hook.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Nothing.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's so awful.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
So this ... The first submission I felt-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JWJosh Waitzkin
... in my life was like the heel hook 20 times. Somehow, my ACL didn't shred and, um, I was like, "I have to fucking train this Jujitsu, like, 'cause Max is kicking my ass." (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
And I didn't like it. So then, that's how it all began, the heel hook.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, w- w- hoist was brilliant in wearing the gi because-
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... it made people grab it.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
They thought they had an advantage-
- JWJosh Waitzkin
And he would ... And-
- JRJoe Rogan
... that he had something to grab. And next thing you know, he's like clenched around you (laughs) and dragged you to the ground.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
It's an amazing idea, right? Like, they had no idea that they were entering his game, they thought they were controlling him.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- 15:31 – 18:34
Early UFC memories: Rogan’s first event, gym politics, and seeing Vitor up close
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Those first, um ... Those first UFCs were just wild.
- JRJoe Rogan
Nuts.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Wild. Just the bizarre ...
- JRJoe Rogan
The first UFC I worked was UFC 12.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
In Dothan, Alabama. Yeah. (laughs) I had to take a propeller plane, I had to fly into ... I think we flew into Birmingham or somewhere, and then we had to take a propeller plane to Dothan. I was like, "What am I doing?"
- JWJosh Waitzkin
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
This is so ridiculous. But I wanted to just see it live, 'cause I'd only seen it on television. I'd only seen it ... I'd never seen a, like, a live cage fight before. I'm like, "This has gotta be crazy."
- JWJosh Waitzkin
So, UFC 12, how long after the first was that?
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it was '97, so it was four years later.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Four years later?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Wow. Man, you've been on that, the journey from the beginning.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. It was like-
- JWJosh Waitzkin
It's pathetic.
- JRJoe Rogan
Everybody was like, "What are you doing?" (laughs) "Don't be associated with this." So many people were telling me not to be associated with it. It was, it was like I was doing snuff films or something, you know? It was like, "Why are you doing this? You're an actor." Like, I was like, "Okay. I don't know what to tell you."
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
"I like it."
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
"I wanna go watch." (laughs) I'd needed to see it. I needed to see it live.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
And you were, were you training at that point in '97?
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'd already started doing Jujitsu. I'd started Jujitsu in '96.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
You were training at Rickson's then, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Started at Rickson's, and then I went from Rickson's to Carlson Gracies.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
I didn't know, I, I thought all Gracies were the same. Like, this Gra- ... Oh, this Gracie's closer. Okay, well, this Gracie-
- JWJosh Waitzkin
They all lo- they all love each other.
- JRJoe Rogan
And I'd also ... (laughs)
- JWJosh Waitzkin
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I didn't understand, they were fight- they were all tooth and claw at each other back then. Uh, I didn't know that, um ... I j- I knew, uh, Carlson's from, I think, the show was Extreme Fighting, the John Peretti show. So, John Peretti, who worked for the UFC, then branched off and had another thing called Extreme Fighting, and that's where Conan Silveira came from, and, um, a, a bunch of like elite, uh, UFC fighters. Mario Sperry fought his first fights over there. Um, so it was, it was like a really good competitive organization that was like right up there with the UFC back in the day. And so, I had ... Carlson Gracie's, uh, name was on that all the time, and they showed some training footage of them training, so I found out about that place, and that was right when Vitor Belfort was emerging. So, Vitor was 19, so I was training at the same-
- 18:34 – 25:07
‘Searching for Bobby Fischer’: the movie, identity shock, and losing chess innocence
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Like, I remember w- when I was playing chess, um, 'cause I was a chess player from age six to 23. That was my first, um, my first art. And-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, you weren't just a chess player, you were a chess player they made a movie about, dude. (laughs)
- JWJosh Waitzkin
(laughs) Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I k- (laughs) I kinda seen that too.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
That hasn't, hasn't had much to do with me, man. They did that, but-
- JRJoe Rogan
A little searching for Bobby Fischer's about you, bro.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, which has gotta be weird.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Many moons ago. That was fucking weird.
- JRJoe Rogan
Was it weird, the dramatic representation of your life versus the real life? Like, what is that juxtaposition like? Like, is it wi- is it bizarre watching a fake version of you on television and d- or on, on a screen rather? And did you have, like, a feeling, like, "Am I that person? I'm not that person. Like, I am me. This is not really me, but it's about me"?
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah. So, the book came out when I was 11 years old. My dad actually wrote the book. Um, he was a writer, and he ended up just writing about the journey from me starting to play chess to winning my first national championship. And when the book came out, it felt like I read it, and it felt true. I was a little pissed off 'cause I didn't want people to know when I cried. I was an 11-year-old, I didn't wanna be vulnerable, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JWJosh Waitzkin
And, but, like, that felt like... And, and that was my first real thrust into the, into, like, some degree of spotlight. And then, and I was the national champion at that point, and I was each year for those years. So, like, I was at the top of the chess world, the youth chess world, and then I had the movie come out, the book come out. And then when the movie came out, it was a shit show. I, I hated the movie when it first came out.
- JRJoe Rogan
Why'd you hate it?
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Because I thought it had nothing to do with my life.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Um, years later, I was able to see it as a work of art separate from my life and see it that way. And I was able to see how it was thematically true, in many ways, to theme, to, like, themes in my life.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Um, but, like, my first teacher, Bruce Pendelfini, who's still a very dear friend of mine, Ben Kingsley played him as this mean guy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
And Bru- and I've had terrible coaches in my life. I've had coaches who were super destructive. But Bruce wasn't. He was beautiful and, um, and loving, and helped me discover my love for chess. My first coaches were the hustlers in Washington Square Park and Bruce Pendelfini together. And the way that was represented, I didn't like it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
They also combined a bunch of characters in Washington Square Park, the hustlers, they co- combined them into one in a way that, you know, was thematically true, but didn't feel... So, like, when you're a kid, you're a teenager, you see all the difference that a movie comes out about your life, you see all the differences as opposed to the similarities. And it was, um... Yeah, and I felt really guilty about it relative to Bruce. That was a big part of it, 'cause I love Bruce.
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you talk to him about it?
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Oh, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
What did he, what was his take on it?
- JWJosh Waitzkin
I mean, it-
- JRJoe Rogan
Was he named Bruce in the movie?
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah, he was named Bruce in the movie, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
When-
- 25:07 – 35:33
The value of getting crushed: building toughness through loss and targeted weakness
- JWJosh Waitzkin
I already had a very strange life because... And I think, like, a foundational part of my psychology came from... So, I started playing chess when I was six years old. When I w- by the time I was seven, I was the top-rated player f- for my age in the country. My first national championship, I got my ass kicked, which was tremendous. It was great. Last round, I lost the f- th- last round of my first nationals, I lost to the guy who l- later became my best friend for many, many years, David Arnett.
- JRJoe Rogan
And you say tremendous because... Was that, uh, like, a jumping point for improvement for you?
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Because I didn't learn that I could win without getting my ass kicked first.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
I, I had to grapple with my demons. And, um, I relate... I, the year from then to winning my nationals, my first nationals the next year, was when I really developed a love for chess. And I had to work very hard, and I didn't associate winning the nationals with talent or, um, a smooth trip or all the bullshit that people can connect when they have... when they're, when they're called a prodigy from the outside.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
It's not a term I ever related to myself at all. But, like, when they're... These labels are put on from the outside. And if you win too fast, too, too young, you can just develop this relationship to, this brittle relationship to success-
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
... and to work, uh, and to training, and to everything, right? You don't, you don't realize that getting your ass kicked is a huge part of, of the journey.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's a problem with very talented fighters as well, a lot of very talented martial artists. They never develop the discipline to truly become great because, like, from the very beginning, they had an... Whatever the advantage was, whether it's a speed advantage, a strength advantage. I mean, genetics plays such a large part in, um, martial arts success, you know? If you have someone who's an elite mind, who is incredibly disciplined and also has great genetics, you get a Mike Tyson.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Oh, that's amazing-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
... if you have that combination.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
That's what you're looking for.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's what you're looking for. But if you don't have that, and Mike Tyson is competing in your division, you're fucked. (laughs) Like, you-
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... you can be really disciplined, but, like, so genetics do have a f- they do play a factor. Circumstances, coaching, uh, there, there's a lot of different factors. But if you're a real prodigy, and there are people out there that are just extraordinary from the beginning, I find that if success comes too quickly, you don't develop the mettle to really push through boundaries and reach new levels. Because the only way you get there is through... You, you have to r- I think oftentimes training becomes, it becomes regimented. It becomes something you do. You see incremental growth and improvement. You get confidence. You're, you're g- But then, when you compete, if you get your ass kicked, then you have to kind of reassess everything. Like, "Okay, w- was I working at 10:00, or was I working at 8:00? Was I, was I studying tape, or was I fucking off and, and calling girls?" You know, "Was I paying attention to my training routine and my recovery, or was I just training and partying?" Like, "What was I doing wrong?" Like, "What led this person to land those shots? What led this person to beat me?"
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And if you don't have those moments where you lose, I don't think you ever really achieve your true potential because you have to be challenged. And the best expression of challenge is total humiliating defeat.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Absolutely.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
And, and, and so consistently, the, the biggest losses, the most crushing losses are what lead to the biggest wins later.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Some- sometimes many years later, but it, it, like, that... And people often, um... I remember I was giving a simultaneous chess exhibition for charity one, you know, in my 20s somewhere. And this f- this guy introduced his son, and he said his son hadn't lost a chess game in, in two years, and he was so proud. And it's just like, I knew it was a fucking train wreck. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JWJosh Waitzkin
I mean, the kid, like, 'cause he, the kid obviously just was only choosing people to play who he could beat.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Wouldn't compete up in tournaments, would only play down, would... And he was just, and he was the only kid who didn't want to play against me in the simul.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, no.
- 35:33 – 49:02
Forced transitions: ruptured disc, giving up full-intensity jiu-jitsu, and rebuilding the body
- JWJosh Waitzkin
You'll find-
- JRJoe Rogan
Jujitsu-
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Jujitsu was the art I had to... That I, I, I had to move on from not on my own terms because I, I, um, I ruptured my L4-L5 disc.
- JRJoe Rogan
There it is. See?
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Trained, trained on it like a crazy person for, like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Sure.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
... a couple of years. And then the doctors looked at that and they're just like, "If you keep on doing this, you're not gonna be able to walk. You're not gonna be able to play ball with your son."
- JRJoe Rogan
What's it like now?
- JWJosh Waitzkin
It's great now.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah?
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's great.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
I mean-
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you think it's a little... Foiling probably makes your core, like, incredibly strong.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah. I mean, I, I've just done a lot of stuff. I mean, I spent y- I never had surgery. They all told me to, but I didn't have surgery.
- JRJoe Rogan
Good for you.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
And I did tons of... I mean, I've been doing total immersion swimming and foundation training and every- everything I could do, um, for the back. And the foiling feels... I'm, I'm training like I'm all in on this art. And it... I'm doing it in a way that feels healthy on the back.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
I train jujitsu now, but light. I mean, I can't train all in, all out like I'd love, love to.
- JRJoe Rogan
No, it's good.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
It was heart- It was heartbreaking to give it up. I was-
- JRJoe Rogan
It is hard, yeah.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
And, and I was so madly in love and all in with Marcelo and having that... Like, I was as... At that part of the learning process, which is where I get good at the learning process, which is, like, toward the...... higher levels of something, that's wh- where I'm best at learning.
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you have a small injury that got worse over time, or did you have a significant moment where you realized you hurt it?
- JWJosh Waitzkin
I was so stupid. No, it was a significant moment. I was, I was on position sparring. (laughs) Marcella was in the, we were at our school in New York. Um, it was a week before my s- my eldest son Jack was born. Um, so it was a bit over 13 years ago. I wa- we were... Marcella was, was gone. We... I was at the school. Um, Paul Schrader was running class that day, I think. And, um, there was this 240-pound blue belt visiting. This is, like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oi.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
... ripped dude. And Paul had everyone doing position sparring, half guard position sparring. And this guy was matched up against one of our guys. I had that hubristic, invincible feeling about me in that moment. I was just... When you're feeling at your very best-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
... in martial flow. And I was like... And it ended up where we were doing half guard position sparring, where I was holding half guard and he was doing this pass, twisting the spine. And it was so fucking stupid to do it. I mean, I was just holding half guard in a, in, in, like, in position sparring, and I just felt it go poof. (inhales deeply) And then, like, you know, it was... I couldn't move. It was fucking terrible.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- 49:02 – 51:57
Outside-the-gym risk culture: fixie bikes, one-wheels, and why danger attracts mastery-seekers
- JRJoe Rogan
How did he get those legs?
- JWJosh Waitzkin
... he just rolls, man. And he was biking. He was into bike, into the, those bikes without, um, without brakes. We were biking all over New York. He- he- (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Bikes without brakes?
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
What do you mean?
- JWJosh Waitzkin
What are they called?
- NANarrator
Fixies.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
What is that?
- NANarrator
Fix- fixed wheel.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah, fixed wheel. He- he just-
- JRJoe Rogan
What does that mean?
- NANarrator
It's just got no, no brakes. There's no brakes all over the board.
- JRJoe Rogan
How do you slow down?
- NANarrator
You go- you go slow.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
You go slow. You put your hand-
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- JWJosh Waitzkin
... your foot on the, on the edge of the b- the wheel.
- JRJoe Rogan
What?
- JWJosh Waitzkin
It's like, yeah, fixed wheel biking. I mean, uh, he loved fixed wheel around New York, and I was biking. Then I switched over-
- JRJoe Rogan
Why would you, why would you ever get on a bike with no brakes?
- JWJosh Waitzkin
It's a-
- NANarrator
You control it. You're- you're- you're braking. Ah, I'll- I'll show you a video.
- JRJoe Rogan
Show me.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Peop- people love it, but man, in New York-
- JRJoe Rogan
What is this?
- JWJosh Waitzkin
... it's- it's quite something. I mean, in New York, when you're going down a hill in New York City in- in traffic, there's- there's some adventure.
- JRJoe Rogan
You're going down a hill. How are you fucking slowing down?
- NANarrator
Don't go fast.
- JRJoe Rogan
What?
- 51:57 – 1:02:45
Foiling as an obsession: high-rep progression, towing into big waves, and subtle control
- JWJosh Waitzkin
But that's with the most beautiful things, there are lots of things that go wrong. Foiling, there's a lot of fucking things that can go wrong. You're-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, yeah.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
... 35, 40 miles an hour on top of a guillotine, big waves, I mean-
- JRJoe Rogan
Dude, I-
- JWJosh Waitzkin
... shit can go wrong fast.
- JRJoe Rogan
... learned how to foil two years ago. And it took me like three hours to get on that fucking thing for the first time, because I've never surfed.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
You were on an eFoil or-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, eFoils.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Oh, an eFoil, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Took me forever.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Just kept falling down, getting back up, falling down. Meanwhile, my kids, my youngest at the time, she was 12, humiliated me.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
She just hopped on it instantly and was scooting around, and look, she knew how to do it immediately. But she- she, um, wakeboards. She does a lot of that shit. She's really athletic. But she was just humiliating me.
- NANarrator
Gets there fast, yeah.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And I was just like, "I'm gonna figure this out."
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Beat her up bad.
- JRJoe Rogan
So for hours, I kept falling down and getting back up, falling down, and eventually I got it. And then once I got it, it was like easy.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Once I got it, I was like, "Oh, I see."
- JWJosh Waitzkin
EFoiling is the best, it's like, it's the best way to learn how to foil because you're- it- they weigh 90 pounds, the eFoils do. Uh, like a high-performance big wave, fo- uh, high-performance foil will, the whole setup will weigh four or five pounds.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah, I mean, a, eFoil, you have a battery, it's, uh, he- heavy and you've got electricity to learn how to for- so you learn foil dynamics. Foiling, when you're high-performance foiling in- in big surf, you're- you're just on a, like a... If you're towing in, you're on a three and a half foot board. Um, no, no battery. It's, uh, uh, it's not powered, it's just-
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
... you're- you're just riding hydrodynamics.
- JRJoe Rogan
So you're... Are you getting towed in to these waves? Like, you're getting in?
- JWJosh Waitzkin
You get- you get- you can tow- you can paddle in or, um, but if you're towing in to bigger waves, you're on a small board. Um, you're getting towed in behind a jet ski, whipped in, and then you're just riding. It's epic, it's frictionless, so beautiful.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow. And what's the benefit of that above surfing? Is that you're above the water?
- JWJosh Waitzkin
You're- you're above the water. You're not feel... Like, the ultimate... If you think about the- the- the glassiest surf day possible, um, the frictionless feeling, it's- it's more frictionless than that, 'cause you're above the water. You're-
- 1:02:45 – 1:17:07
Near-death in a pool: Wim Hof breathwork, shallow-water blackout, and post-crisis commitment
- JWJosh Waitzkin
It's out. So then you have to work through that journey, which is a lot of what I did from like my late teenage years, leaving and studying philosophy and then moving into other fields and started r- relating to art in a way that was integrating that self-awareness, integrating that sense of mortality. Um, it's like when I, I, I, uh, a very powerful example of this was I, I, I di- I drowned in a pool, um, I guess like nine, 10 years ago. I was, um, doing hypoxic breath work, Wim Hof training (laughs) in a pool.
- NANarrator
Jesus Christ.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
And, uh, never do Wim Hof training, everybody please, in a pool, um, because you're, you're flushing the CO2 from your body but CO2 is what gives you the urge to breathe. And so without carbon dioxide in your being, in your- you don't feel the urge to breathe. And so I- and I'd been a lifetime free diver, spearfishing f- f- from when I was five, six years old, but I was never doing hypoxic breath work before free diving. So if you're diving 80, 90, 100 feet, you're, you're not flushing the CO2 from your body before you do so, so you have, you still have that, that sense for when you need to breathe. But I was in a NYU pool, I was at just swimming 50 meters, 50 meters back and forth underwater and then doing this, this hypoxic wor- breath work in between. And then I- my last recollection is being stretched out in bliss that those tingles through your body you get from... Have you done Wim Hof training?
- NANarrator
Mm-hmm.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Yeah, those, you know those tingles?
- NANarrator
Mm-hmm.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Had those fucking tingles and then I woke up 30 minutes later. What happened was that I blacked out. I was in the bottom of the pool for over four minutes after blacking out from shallow water blackout.
- NANarrator
Oh my God.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Which should, it should be 45 seconds to a minute and you should be brain dead or dead 'cause you're post-shallow water blackout. I know what time it was because there was an old man at the pool who saw me in the bottom of the pool and swam one lap and his mi- his laps were a little bit over a minute, swam a second lap. After his third lap he said, "Let me, I'll check on him if he's still down." He thought I was holding my breath, but I was only holding my breath while swimming. So if I was still, I was fucking out. His fourth lap, after his fourth lap, he ta- pulled me up. I was blue.
- NANarrator
Oh my God.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
My whole body was blue. Um, my head was red. My body saved me. My training saved me and almost, and killed me. Sent all the blood to my brain. My eyes were blown out, red, like bloodshot for three weeks that followed. And I, um, I remember waking up and having this, everyone, looking at everyone around me and like, "What the fuck is everyone... What's going on guys? Like what's the drama?" (laughs) And I realized that I was the fucking drama.
- NANarrator
Whoa.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Um, and I spent that night in the hospital going through old chess variations trying to, like, s- test my brain. Is my bain- brain ruined? Like, do I remember things? Somehow my brain, maybe it's fucked up, but it's, seems to be working pretty well. (laughs)
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- JWJosh Waitzkin
And, um...
- NANarrator
Wow.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
But like I can't... And, and, and that was also a big part of me realizing I had to spend my life in the, in the ocean 'cause I could feel the potential for some PTSD response. Like I could f- I could actually feel the potential trauma response like a cloud that was washing over me.
- NANarrator
Mm.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Like I could see the cloud coming and I just fucking decided not to let it in, and I got back in the water the next day. Um, and I, I just fucking... And I think that's a big part of my relationship with the ocean is having died in water. Um, I need to spend my life in the water obviously.
- NANarrator
Did you have any sort of out-of-body experience or anything while you were gone?
- JWJosh Waitzkin
What's really fucked up about it is no.
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- JWJosh Waitzkin
That's what's really wild. (laughs) It went just black. That's what's crazy is that I, I went... My last memory is of just tingles and bliss and then waking up. And so if I hadn't been pulled out, there would've been no flash, no th- no seeing my life pass before my eyes, no tunnel on the other side, nothing. You know what's really fucking wild though is that many years later I was doing this, um... This guy Brandon Powell is a brilliant guy who's, um, a train- Wim, uh, top Wim Hof trainer and a trainer of trainers of his guys. And I was doing some retreats with teams of mine and we were doing some Wim Hof work and he had this methodology of kind of accelerated hypoxic work where that he said, I'm not sure if it's true, but he said released DMT in your body, inhibited the DMT inhibitors in your body. And I did these journeys with him twice through pure breath work, no psychedelics. And I experienced these two times, months apart, I experienced one time I experienced the center of my consciousness as where I, as, as my busted disc, and I experienced the world through like the electrical connections emerging from my, from my L4, L5. It's very strange. And the other one was the only memory I have of that...... and I'm not sure if this is accurate or some kind of illusion. But, um, I saw the drowning experience from above, the whole thing. I watched the 20 minutes that I was on the, that I was on the bottom of the pool and then up in 25 minutes, and then on the, on the pool deck, and I saw the whole thing from above. But that was like years after it happened that-
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
... so I can't explain that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Were, were all the people there, the same people?
- JWJosh Waitzkin
I don't know. I, I, my memory of it consciously from what actually happened is so fuzzy, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JWJosh Waitzkin
Because I just died and came back. But, but, and then I saw, I saw it from above. I think I was mostly focused on the memory of, of myself.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
Episode duration: 2:31:46
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Transcript of episode xsqbdBiidWE
